View Full Version : Compact drill press for AR work that doesn't suck?
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 09:37
The short of it is I want a drill press for general AR smithing like pinning gas-blocks and front sight bases, drilling out a blind pinned muzzle devices, and my pet project of DIY gas-port-restricting, gas-block inserts.
All I need is a small drill press that is steady and can drill a straight hole the size that the drill bit cuts. I tried (I know) to get away buying cheap, way cheap: https://www.amazon.com/WEN-4208-8-Inch-Speed-Drill/dp/B00HQONFVE/ref=sr_1_2?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1480519786&sr=1-2&keywords=Drill+press (incidently the smallest Craftsman drill press from sears for $160 is just a branded WEN)
As you might guess this is too much to ask for buying cheap. The Chinese junk grade WEN from amazon had insane amount of wobble. I would better off using a hand drill.
Any recommendations? Budget? As cheap as possible that can do what I want with emphasis on a straight hole.
#1. You might try a dovetail column mill/drill. They suck for milling but are pretty darn good for drilling. They can be had cheaper than grizzly but grizzly CS is pretty good in my experience if you have a problem.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com
#2. If you want a really true hole, a drill bit won't do it alone. You've got to drill and then ream to size. Drill bits wander and flex too much.
#3 if you're dead set on a drill press, grizzly again might be a good place to look. Some grizzly is chicom, some is taiwan, but in either case the designs and QC are generally better.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Speed-Heavy-Duty-Bench-Top-Drill-Press/G7943?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com
rocket 442
11-30-16, 10:09
If you have the room & capacity buy a used Bridgeport mill.
If you have the room & capacity buy a used Bridgeport mill.
I agree, I have been a machinist pretty much my whole life, and while there may be other ways to do it. A Bridgeport mill with a decent vice, good quality drill bits and a little know how will make the job a whole lot easier with consistent results.
SomeOtherGuy
11-30-16, 11:41
Another option - watch garage sales and classifieds for a used, older, US-made drill press. The US-made hobby machines from 25+ years ago are often better than what you can buy today for under $1000. I've inherited a few tools in this category and am very thankful for them.
If you have the room & capacity buy a used Bridgeport mill.
I agree, I have been a machinist pretty much my whole life, and while there may be other ways to do it. A Bridgeport mill with a decent vice, good quality drill bits and a little know how will make the job a whole lot easier with consistent results.
I would have to agree with both of the above as well. Mine makes life stupid easy drilling holes. Even a used one is a pretty significant investment in $ not to mention space though.
556BlackRifle
11-30-16, 12:04
Unless you are in a rush, search the newspaper and Craigslist for used. I know a guy who found a Walker & Turner drill press for $50 at a garage sale. He had to replace the brushes in the motor and change the belt but when he was done he had a USA made quality drill press for around $100. I have a similar model that was given to me by my father. I think he got it used in the 1950s and it's still going strong today.
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 18:16
Can what I want be done with a drill press? I would like to maintain .001" of tolerances for the gas-port inserts. I won't be full on manufacturing them or full time smithing, I'll mostly just be going for hobby use and the occasional pin job for a build.
A Bridgeport mill is beyond my space constraints and out of the budget, though I would very much like to have and learn one, I can't justify it unless I were going for business use and then it is still bigger than I have room for.
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 18:48
I would not touch that.
Not sure what you are getting at?
Don't mess with a drill press please, you won't get the results you want.
Inkslinger
11-30-16, 19:00
Jerry would your gas port insert pet project be anything like what member Clint at Black River Tactical offers?
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/customtune-gas-port/
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 19:02
Don't mess with a drill press please, you won't get the results you want.
Tell me why, por favor.
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 19:15
Jerry would your gas port insert pet project be anything like what member Clint at Black River Tactical offers?
http://www.blackrivertactical.com/concrete5/customtune-gas-port/
Yes. Very much so. However, for now, Clint's inserts are 8-32 threaded sized. All of the lo-pro gas blocks I have: e.g. Noveske factory pinned, V7WS titanium, BAD titanium, and Hodge Defense/SLR Rifleworks GB7 (which to me it seems the benefit of the port insert is the ability to use favored gas blocks, otherwise I would simply go with the MicroMOA baby govnah if not actual barrel porting) have gas admission ports that are likely drilled in the same step that the hole for the 10-32 threaded rear set screw is made. This means the admission port for these gas blocks is too large for the 8-32 threaded BRT inserts. I have already successfully tapped my gas-blocks with 10-32 sized admission ports for 10-32 threads and I have already made 10-32 inserts from 18-8 stainless steel, 10-32 threaded, vented cup-point set-screws. I just need to drill/ream the desired port regulation size through the provisionary pilot hole of the vented set-screw
https://www.mcmaster.com/#91979a576/=159s8fl
Frankly I care more about this than being able to pin a gas-block/front sight base.
Op, be sure to post once you have this up and running. I considering toying with something similar as I have a few gas blocks that are to large for the BRT ports. But I also need to open up the set screws holding the gas block to the barrel.
It's a pity the vented cup screws can't be had with a wider range of vent hole diameters.
Can what I want be done with a drill press? I would like to maintain .001" of tolerances for the gas-port inserts
Yes, you can. I have been drilling holes in aircraft for a living for more years than I care to admit to. I can drill very precise holes, clean and round and normal to the surface with a hand drill and an egg cup. Holes where the diameter had to be within .0005". The same can be done with a good drill press. However, you will have to learn how it's done. It's not difficult, but you'll need to learn the processes that will deliver the hole quality and diameter needed
Yes, you can. I have been drilling holes in aircraft for a living for more years than I care to admit to. I can drill very precise holes, clean and round and normal to the surface with a hand drill and an egg cup. Holes where the diameter had to be within .0005". The same can be done with a good drill press. However, you will have to learn how it's done. It's not difficult, but you'll need to learn the processes that will deliver the hole quality and diameter needed
And if you don't know what you're doing you end up with something like the repair I approved a couple years ago.
Dumbass "a&p" elongated 9 holes in the pressure vessel of a uc-35. Routine maintenance turned into a something like a $250k replace a in chunk if the fuselage repair that his employer had to eat because uncle Sam didn't want his airplane to have an ugly patch on it.
Needless to say he was unemployed after that.
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tigershilone
11-30-16, 22:06
Does OP have lathe access? If so then just chuck em up in a 5C collet and drill out the centers that way, then tap using the tailstock as a guide. A four jaw adj chuck could also be used to hold the gas block and center off the holes.
jerrysimons
11-30-16, 22:42
Yes, you can. I have been drilling holes in aircraft for a living for more years than I care to admit to. I can drill very precise holes, clean and round and normal to the surface with a hand drill and an egg cup. Holes where the diameter had to be within .0005". The same can be done with a good drill press. However, you will have to learn how it's done. It's not difficult, but you'll need to learn the processes that will deliver the hole quality and diameter needed
Thanks. Assuming I can obtain a drill press that will actually spin a bit around its central axis (might be cost prohibitive), what techniques should I use?
My thinking is to drill out the .046" "pilot" hole in the set-screw to one drill bit size less than the port size I want, then ream it out to size. For example I want a .065" port restriction for a 12.5" carbine barrel. I made a jig to mount in a drill press vise to hold the set-screw while drilling. I'll Start with a .063" wire gauge #52 drill bit (https://www.mcmaster.com/#2896a567/=159uw16) and move to a .0645" chucking reamer (https://www.mcmaster.com/#8803a14/=159uk8i) which is .0005" less than desired size to account for some wobble in the drill press (wobble wont make the hole smaller only bigger). Check work with a pin gauge. Proof is in the pudding, right? If it works it works. Any tips for or issues in the process above?
As a part of the cost justification for attempting to make my own inserts and as a function of the fact that in order to tap the 10-32 gas-admission port the tap opens up the rear set-screw threads a little when working it through them (this 10-32 tap (https://www.mcmaster.com/#2662a46/=159uuaf) is short enough to tap the admission-port independent of the rear set-screw threads even on a .625" gas-block bore) I would like to be able to use the drill press to also pin the gas-blocks to the barrels. If a BRD Engineering hand-drill jig can work well for pinning a gas-block, why cant a good drill press and a solid end-mill bit?
For a drill press, either Wilton or Jet.
Microadventure
12-01-16, 09:20
there is not enough room under those benchtop drill presses for the bit, the vise, and the work. you can put the work in the vise but not drill it, hand hold the work while drilling, or drill the vise.
Little Machine Shop 3990 mini mill (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3990)
Mini mill comparison chart by Little Machine Shop that shows the LMS 3990 to be vastly superior. You're shocked, I'm sure (http://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill_compare.php)
jerrysimons
12-01-16, 10:22
#1. You might try a dovetail column mill/drill. They suck for milling but are pretty darn good for drilling. They can be had cheaper than grizzly but grizzly CS is pretty good in my experience if you have a problem.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com
#2. If you want a really true hole, a drill bit won't do it alone. You've got to drill and then ream to size. Drill bits wander and flex too much.
#3 if you're dead set on a drill press, grizzly again might be a good place to look. Some grizzly is chicom, some is taiwan, but in either case the designs and QC are generally better.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Speed-Heavy-Duty-Bench-Top-Drill-Press/G7943?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com
there is not enough room under those benchtop drill presses for the bit, the vise, and the work. you can put the work in the vise but not drill it, hand hold the work while drilling, or drill the vise.
Little Machine Shop 3990 mini mill (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3990)
Mini mill comparison chart by Little Machine Shop that shows the LMS 3990 to be vastly superior. You're shocked, I'm sure (http://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill_compare.php)
I feel in over my head, why a mini mill over a drill press? I wont be making lateral cuts, is it just that they are more sturdy?
For a drill press, either Wilton or Jet.
Know anything about this Jet? http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-354401-15-in--bench-model-drill-press/jetn354401,default,pd.html
I have to say it looks strikingly similar to all the other drill press is this price range which all look quite similar to the WEN. Makes me think they are all made in the same Chinese factory.
these two caught my eye also:
15" bench
http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-716200-15-in--bench-drill-press/jetn716200,default,pd.html
17" floor
http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-716300-3-4-hp-17-in--16-speed-floor-mount-drill-press/jetn716300,default,pd.html
The dove tail column on the mini mill will hold your lateral position better than the round column on a drill press
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And fyi jet is mostly chicom these days too
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Microadventure
12-01-16, 18:46
why a mini mill over a drill press? I wont be making lateral cuts, is it just that they are more sturdy?
In my experience you need to go one step up to get to adequate when you buy anything Chinese. a Chinese mini mill is where a good old art deco Delta drill press was fifty years ago. a Chinese drill press would be adequate for pressing grapes in small quantities.
and it gives you an excuse to buy a box of 80 percent lowers.
I feel in over my head, why a mini mill over a drill press? I wont be making lateral cuts, is it just that they are more sturdy?
Know anything about this Jet? http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-354401-15-in--bench-model-drill-press/jetn354401,default,pd.html
I have to say it looks strikingly similar to all the other drill press is this price range which all look quite similar to the WEN. Makes me think they are all made in the same Chinese factory.
these two caught my eye also:
15" bench
http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-716200-15-in--bench-drill-press/jetn716200,default,pd.html
17" floor
http://www.cpojettools.com/jet-716300-3-4-hp-17-in--16-speed-floor-mount-drill-press/jetn716300,default,pd.html
PMed.
Wolfpack45
12-06-16, 08:52
If you are on a budget take a look at the WEN presses. Suspiciously similar to the JET models and they have a reputation for being a pretty good product.
Thanks. Assuming I can obtain a drill press that will actually spin a bit around its central axis (might be cost prohibitive), what techniques should I use?
My thinking is to drill out the .046" "pilot" hole in the set-screw to one drill bit size less than the port size I want, then ream it out to size. For example I want a .065" port restriction for a 12.5" carbine barrel. I made a jig to mount in a drill press vise to hold the set-screw while drilling. I'll Start with a .063" wire gauge #52 drill bit (https://www.mcmaster.com/#2896a567/=159uw16) and move to a .0645" chucking reamer (https://www.mcmaster.com/#8803a14/=159uk8i) which is .0005" less than desired size to account for some wobble in the drill press (wobble wont make the hole smaller only bigger). Check work with a pin gauge. Proof is in the pudding, right? If it works it works. Any tips for or issues in the process above?
As a part of the cost justification for attempting to make my own inserts and as a function of the fact that in order to tap the 10-32 gas-admission port the tap opens up the rear set-screw threads a little when working it through them (this 10-32 tap (https://www.mcmaster.com/#2662a46/=159uuaf) is short enough to tap the admission-port independent of the rear set-screw threads even on a .625" gas-block bore) I would like to be able to use the drill press to also pin the gas-blocks to the barrels. If a BRD Engineering hand-drill jig can work well for pinning a gas-block, why cant a good drill press and a solid end-mill bit?
Things you'll need to watch for-
-Drill bits flex. When they flex, they tend to wander off center before starting the cut, especially when drilling round stock like barrels. This results in mislocated holes and scarring of the material around the hole. This can be prevented by center punching the hole location and using a starter drill. Other techniques include making and using a drill guide. A drill guide is a hardened bushing machined to a diameter that just fits the drill bit/core drill/reamer you're using. The bushing is fitted into a bar or something similar that is usually clamped to the workpiece to keep the bit from wandering and flexing and sets the angle to be drilled, normally 90°
-Speeds and feeds. Cutting speed and feed rate will affect hole quality and tool life and breakage. You can get a book that will tell you what speeds & feeds are recommended for different types of materials
-Step drilling is your friend. Start off drilling a smaller hole and step it up to final size. There is no single correct method to step drilling. The usual process is to first pilot the hole with a drill bit, step the hole with a piloted core drill and finish it with a piloted reamer. This not only gives you a clean and round hole, but reduces breakage. The exact process used will be determined by final hole size, material type and your own skill and experience.
-Stay away from cheap cheap drill bits. The drill bits I use the most are double margin cobalt. You should be able to look up what that means. Double margins wander less and drill straighter and rounder than single margins and cobalt is harder and cuts better that high speed steel. Cobalt drills do shatter easier than high speed steel but are much superior for metal working
-Use drill lube. Experience will tell you when and how much.
-Use drill stops. You don't want to break through and damage the rifling on the other side of the bore
-Learn how to properly clamp the work piece
-Learn to make and use tooling to reduce set up time, speed up production and promote repeatability. Setting up will take longer than actually drilling the hole
-Practice, practice, practice. You gain skill and experience by doing. Lay out hole patterns and drill them. Always evaluate your work and figure out what you did right, what you did wrong and how to improve the process. Note keeping helps
-Learn the differences between drill bits, core drills and reamers and how to use them
-Pick the brains of others. Become your own SME
I have had this Skil drill press (https://www.amazon.com/SKIL-3320-01-10-Inch-Drill-Press/dp/B003LSSS0W/ref=pd_cp_469_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=6PP2CEA1X9E0EV96SRMR) since 2013. Very cheap and effective. I've drilled at least 5 barrels out using a Jigs for Vltor-profiled gas blocks and also SLR gas blocks.
My method that has worked for me: run it on the slowest speed, use lots of oil as it's cutting, and I like the 3-FLUTE CARBIDE DRILL Bits from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/power-tools-accessories/drill-bits/3-flute-carbide-drill-prod6543.aspx).
Op, be sure to post once you have this up and running. I considering toying with something similar as I have a few gas blocks that are to large for the BRT ports. But I also need to open up the set screws holding the gas block to the barrel.
We now offer larger "HD" CustomTune Gas Ports that are compatible with nearly all gas blocks, but absolutely require tapping of the gas block.
Averageman
12-10-16, 12:10
Things you'll need to watch for-
-Drill bits flex. When they flex, they tend to wander off center before starting the cut, especially when drilling round stock like barrels. This results in mislocated holes and scarring of the material around the hole. This can be prevented by center punching the hole location and using a starter drill. Other techniques include making and using a drill guide. A drill guide is a hardened bushing machined to a diameter that just fits the drill bit/core drill/reamer you're using. The bushing is fitted into a bar or something similar that is usually clamped to the workpiece to keep the bit from wandering and flexing and sets the angle to be drilled, normally 90°
-Speeds and feeds. Cutting speed and feed rate will affect hole quality and tool life and breakage. You can get a book that will tell you what speeds & feeds are recommended for different types of materials
-Step drilling is your friend. Start off drilling a smaller hole and step it up to final size. There is no single correct method to step drilling. The usual process is to first pilot the hole with a drill bit, step the hole with a piloted core drill and finish it with a piloted reamer. This not only gives you a clean and round hole, but reduces breakage. The exact process used will be determined by final hole size, material type and your own skill and experience.
-Stay away from cheap cheap drill bits. The drill bits I use the most are double margin cobalt. You should be able to look up what that means. Double margins wander less and drill straighter and rounder than single margins and cobalt is harder and cuts better that high speed steel. Cobalt drills do shatter easier than high speed steel but are much superior for metal working
-Use drill lube. Experience will tell you when and how much.
-Use drill stops. You don't want to break through and damage the rifling on the other side of the bore
-Learn how to properly clamp the work piece
-Learn to make and use tooling to reduce set up time, speed up production and promote repeatability. Setting up will take longer than actually drilling the hole
-Practice, practice, practice. You gain skill and experience by doing. Lay out hole patterns and drill them. Always evaluate your work and figure out what you did right, what you did wrong and how to improve the process. Note keeping helps
-Learn the differences between drill bits, core drills and reamers and how to use them
-Pick the brains of others. Become your own SME
There is a lot of good stuff in this post.
Press Check
12-10-16, 14:54
Any recommendation for a mini mill on a $2500 budget?
jerrysimons
12-10-16, 18:06
In my experience you need to go one step up to get to adequate when you buy anything Chinese. a Chinese mini mill is where a good old art deco Delta drill press was fifty years ago. a Chinese drill press would be adequate for pressing grapes in small quantities.
and it gives you an excuse to buy a box of 80 percent lowers.
I like that idea of of messing with 80% lowers. So if you have to step up to a Chinese mill in order to drill good holes. What do you have to step up to inorder to make lateral cutting operations? Lol
I like that little machine shop 3990 you posted. I think I will eventually end up going with a mill but right now I am focused on the inserts, which is not a complex item. I successfully drilled a shortened 10-32 3/16" vented set screw for .0625" using a hand held drill. The next size up drill bit of .0635" would not fit through the hole. Now the hole was not exactly perpendicular but the width of the hole seems most important here. I am thinking if I can find a good drill press for cheep it should accomplish what I want to do. I'll still have the problem of pinning a gas-block though.
Mistwolf, Thanks much!
Dentron, your 12.5" SBR thread and PM were encouraging.
We now offer larger "HD" CustomTune Gas Ports that are compatible with nearly all gas blocks, but absolutely require tapping of the gas block.
Glad to see it! Tell us about the modified tap? Why no .065" insert offering?
Thanks. I admit I kind of reversed engineered your product, or so I think well enough. Now I don't know what material or what process you use (nor do I expect you to say) but your stuff has an engineering touch I am not equipped to put out and comes with a lot less brain damage. Though I would not have started down this road if the wider inserts were available at the time.
Any recommendation for a mini mill on a $2500 budget?
For $2500 I'd hunt around for a used Bridgeport. Barring that get one of these grizzlies or similar that are clones of an old clausing 8520 IIRC.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-26-Vertical-Mill-with-LED-Worklight/G0801
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I like that idea of of messing with 80% lowers. So if you have to step up to a Chinese mill in order to drill good holes. What do you have to step up to inorder to make lateral cutting operations? Lol
Preferably a small knee mill like I posted above.
The issue with milling in the mill drills is one of aggravation more than anything. More so on the round columns than the dovetail units.
Round columns lose zero when moved vertically. If you don't mind re-zeroing when you change tools or other vertical movements you can do work on them, it's just slow.
The dovetails don't lose zero as badly because they're locked in laterally but the heads can tilt when loosened for movement, causing tool contact point to shift. Again you can compensate but it's an irritation.
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I will say I'm also intrigued by these little pieces of chicom hardware.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Horizontal-Vertical-Mill/G0727
A tabletop horizontal mill is an oddity but one I bet you could roll through some 80% lowers with if it cuts accurately.
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jerrysimons
12-10-16, 21:42
Nova what do you think of that little machine shop 3990 compared to the grizzly mini mill you posted?
Nova what do you think of that little machine shop 3990 compared to the grizzly mini mill you posted?
Which grizzly? Dovetail mill/drill or the knee mill
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jerrysimons
12-11-16, 13:24
Dovetail. The page on minimachine shop says those are all made in the same place more or less.
Dovetail. The page on minimachine shop says those are all made in the same place more or less.
They are. Minor variations in features. I think the motor on the lmm model is a little better.
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