View Full Version : Army kicks out 20k soldiers
For misconduct. Some feel it's to avoid having to properly treat and deal with vets with PTDS, TBI, etc.
Thousands Of Soldiers With Mental Health Disorders Kicked Out For 'Misconduct'
The U.S. Army has kicked out more than 22,000 soldiers since 2009 for "misconduct," after they returned from Iraq and Afghanistan and were diagnosed with mental health disorders and traumatic brain injuries. That means many of those soldiers are not receiving the crucial treatment or retirement and health care benefits they would have received with an honorable discharge.
The Army has taken these actions despite a 2009 federal law designed to ensure that troops whose mental illness might be linked to the wars aren't cast aside.
That's the finding of a joint investigation by NPR and Colorado Public Radio that listened to hours of secret recordings, looked at hundreds of pages of confidential military documents and interviewed dozens of sources both inside and outside the base.
One of the Army's top officials who oversee mental health, Lt. Col. Chris Ivany, told NPR and CPR that the Army is not violating the spirit of the 2009 law by dismissing those soldiers for misconduct.
Cont:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/28/452652731/thousands-of-soldiers-with-mental-health-disorders-kicked-out-for-misconduct
KalashniKEV
12-01-16, 08:45
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
So draining the swamp so to speak?
Bullshit.
we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army.
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
Point being, WE LET THEM IN. To my way of thinking, if they got broke while in, even if they shouldn't have been in, they need our support. You get banged up with a TBI from an IED, I think you should get cut some slack.
I have/had a minor TBI compared to what many of these guys have gone through. My wife will tell you that it changed certain aspects of my personality.
Your painting 20,000 plus soldiers with a pretty broad brush.
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
This is one of the few time that I have to agree 100% with KEV.... ;)...... he hit the nail on the head. There are a bunch of dirtbags that have about as much PTSD as a rock can have. It is also the way to go if you are getting kicked out of the Army...... "I only did it because of the PTSD I got". It is straight up BS.
I'm of two minds on this one. I think both sides are right. Are many of the 20K shitbirds? Undoubtedly. Are more than a few decent troops who truly suffered getting swept up in the same net? Undoubtedly.
Trying to create an accurate depiction of the issue using broad brush will net you a pretty crappy result. All of you should know that by now. :(
Averageman
12-01-16, 10:58
I'm of two minds on this one. I think both sides are right. Are many of the 20K shitbirds? Undoubtedly. Are more than a few decent troops who truly suffered getting swept up in the same net? Undoubtedly.
Trying to create an accurate depiction of the issue using broad brush will net you a pretty crappy result. All of you should know that by now. :(
I walked in on a PFC giving an impromptu class to everyone else in the room about how to make a rock solid PTSD claim. It didn't matter that She had been a Fobbit and never left the gate, She had the system gamed and knew it and was anxious to teach the game to others.
Two kids at home, living with her Mom and now she has the system gamed and will be on the dole for what is likely the rest of her life. We will pay for her life of relative leisure.
That She was worthless as a Soldier and a constant drain on the Soldiers and Leadership around her was pretty evident from my time working with that Platoon.
We scraped the bottom of the barrel, this is the result of that effort.
I never once saw someone with a legitimate mental health problem be punished. Seen more than a handful get their dick slapped, but we helped them out and their careers rebounded just fine.
Ask anyone who has ever put together a Chapter packet what that person was like as a Soldier.
I never kicked a dude out who wasn't an absolute shitbag to the core and we had exhausted every option possible.
As for dudes gaming disability; unfortunate side effect of the way the system is. I'm at 60% VA without the freebie PTSD or tinnitus claims because I don't have it. But you'll see non-deployed POG ass PFCs rating 50% for PTSD from "anxiety" caused by some big ol meanie NCO in their unit.
Kev hit the nail on the head.
USMC_Anglico
12-01-16, 11:14
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
Exactly This.
I walked in on a PFC giving an impromptu class to everyone else in the room about how to make a rock solid PTSD claim. It didn't matter that She had been a Fobbit and never left the gate, She had the system gamed and knew it and was anxious to teach the game to others.
Two kids at home, living with her Mom and now she has the system gamed and will be on the dole for what is likely the rest of her life. We will pay for her life of relative leisure.
That She was worthless as a Soldier and a constant drain on the Soldiers and Leadership around her was pretty evident from my time working with that Platoon.
We scraped the bottom of the barrel, this is the result of that effort.
Did you even read what I posted? :rolleyes:
Digital_Damage
12-01-16, 11:43
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
Yep... some of the people I saw let in was mindboggling. Should NEVER have been allowed in to begin with.
BoringGuy45
12-01-16, 12:12
Bullshit.
This is the story- during the height of both wars... after NG and Reserve rotations were at max capacity... and our global defense interests were being neglected worldwide, we let in a massive horde of horrible shitbags who never-before-in-American-history would have been qualified to wear the uniform of the United States Army. Fat people. Retarded people. Criminals. Dim witted, wild animal people who were discharged upon graduation from our failing schools, or who didn't go at all... who can tell?
EVERY SINGLE MAJOR PROBLEM that the Army has faced over the last decade has maximum TWO (2) degrees of separation to one of these persons.
From Boltin' Bowe Bergdahl to Track Palin's drug dealing buddy Jeremy Morlock... and also many thousands of minor problems that made life suck, reduced effectiveness, and generated recall formations on the weekend.
They should have never been scheduled to sit for the ASVAB, let alone make it to the oath. If they didn't take them in, they would just be doing the same crimes elsewhere... and now some of them have PTSD claims to hold up as a shield?
Nope. Ma'asalaama.
One of the biggest problems with this, I've found, is that the illusion that every U.S. serviceman is by default a professional, mature, moral, competent, and highly disciplined individual gives many of these scumbags first dibs on jobs that they have no business being in. For example, in many places, law enforcement agencies are not even allowed to consider a non-vet for employment until the entire list of veterans is exhausted. I can't tell you how many jobs I was passed over for guys who, despite the former service, I had known long and well enough to know were absolute pieces of crap, and who were able to pass background checks and polygraphs do their psychopath-level ability to lie convincingly.
Averageman
12-01-16, 12:28
Did you even read what I posted? :rolleyes:
Yes, I did, I got a bit distracted for a moment.
I'm of two minds on this one. I think both sides are right. Are many of the 20K shitbirds? Undoubtedly. Are more than a few decent troops who truly suffered getting swept up in the same net? Undoubtedly.
Trying to create an accurate depiction of the issue using broad brush will net you a pretty crappy result. All of you should know that by now. :(
The point I was trying to make (and failed to do so) was this isn't the first time this has happened. Essentially, it's a modern version of McNamara's 10,000 and we bought it, we broke some of it and now we need to do the right thing.
The system hasn't ever been fair on either side. To say "We owe them." isn't either. A better system needs to be made to weed out the legitimate from the illegitimate claims and even more than that, to learn some such an event so that we don't repeat it again.
Lowering entrance standards was a sad fix for the issue, it simply placed the burden of lower quality Soldiers with issues further down the line.
I've processed a few Chapter Packets in my time, it's not something I enjoyed, but in my experience most of these were discipline cases and by the time they got to me, were long passed due for this sort of action in every case I can remember.
I've got a very close friend that has TBI and I've known him for what must be now close to thirty years. Although he had some things in his life that challenged him, he never became a "Well Order and Discipline" issue and served out his time honorably. He has had to fight pretty hard to get the benefits he needs to lead a normal life.
On the other hand, the example I gave above, the Soldier was a constant drain on the system (apparently from day one, having talked to her Platoon Sergeant) and managed to game it out right to her ETS.
We've got to come up with a better system to identify and treat that which is legitimate and never again drop the standards to a point where we are welcoming in trouble by lowering our recruiting standards to meet political pressures.
Sorry about that, I got distracted.
One of the biggest problems with this, I've found, is that the illusion that every U.S. serviceman is by default a professional, mature, moral, competent, and highly disciplined individual gives many of these scumbags first dibs on jobs that they have no business being in. For example, in many places, law enforcement agencies are not even allowed to consider a non-vet for employment until the entire list of veterans is exhausted. I can't tell you how many jobs I was passed over for guys who, despite the former service, I had known long and well enough to know were absolute pieces of crap, and who were able to pass background checks and polygraphs do their psychopath-level ability to lie convincingly.
THIS!!!!!
Everyone likes to have this romantic image of every GI being Ranger Joe with whitewalls who stands at parade rest everywhere and knocks out 6 pull ups before sitting down for lunch.
NEWP.
Knew lots of guys, mostly MPs, who were lazy, sorry, chickenshit, call dodging, buck passing, braggart pieces of human filth of whom I would not micturate upon had I just drank turpentine.
Guys with "war stories" of going downrange to a German whorehouse and equating their "deployment" to Germany as being equal to or greater than some dude going to Fallujah.
Or they think their rank carries over to the popo world.
NEWP.
So they can take Veteran's Pref and cram it up their sorry asses.
I get the intention behind it. Joe comes home and should get a little due.
But for every solid guy it benefits there are 20 underbiters who play the "I was in the
military, where my free shit, office, and coffee at?" deal
Which defeats the purpose.
Make everything clean slate competitive. Across the board. If someone has relevant experience aside from showing up and drinking coffee. Great.
But otherwise, piss off.
I may catch flak, but I known too many Easy E8s in civilian police life Retired on Duty sitting back and thumb twiddling while everyone else is in a fight, dispersing a crowd, or having to do a lot of paperwork and the radio is hot and popping with calls.
But hey....they were in the Army and you are literally ISIS if you call them out on their sorriness
ETA GLARING sorriness as both officers and human beings. I sometimes wish to meet their mothers and ask, most sincerely, why didnt you take the pill or why she thought it would be amusing to just drop them on their head all day. Like really? No good soap operas on? Did you DELIBERATELY feed them lead paint chips?
Averageman
12-01-16, 12:36
But for every solid guy it benefits there are 20 underbiters who play the "I was in the
military, where my free shit, office, and coffee at?" deal
Which defeats the purpose.
You are literally ISIS if you call them out on their sorriness
I would have to agree 100%
I generally agree with Kev (with Trump and the Cubs winning a sure sign the apocalypse is upon us......). But every war has seen an open-door policy at the recruiter's office; every post-war drawdown sees a culling of the herd.
I do think if they get injured while they are in, they get the treatment. It pisses me off when veterans get injured then cast aside with a big ol' "FU" from Uncle Sam, terminal pay and a pat on the back saying "good luck...."
I also think there is TBI/PTSD, and there is TBI/PTSD. Technically I qualify for having had a TBI but I got concussions playing sports worse than what I got in the military, so I never followed up on it. Finite resources and real sick people and all.
Yes, I did, I got a bit distracted for a moment.
The point I was trying to make (and failed to do so) was this isn't the first time this has happened. Essentially, it's a modern version of McNamara's 10,000 and we bought it, we broke some of it and now we need to do the right thing.
The system hasn't ever been fair on either side. To say "We owe them." isn't either. A better system needs to be made to weed out the legitimate from the illegitimate claims and even more than that, to learn some such an event so that we don't repeat it again.
Lowering entrance standards was a sad fix for the issue, it simply placed the burden of lower quality Soldiers with issues further down the line.
I've processed a few Chapter Packets in my time, it's not something I enjoyed, but in my experience most of these were discipline cases and by the time they got to me, were long passed due for this sort of action in every case I can remember.
I've got a very close friend that has TBI and I've known him for what must be now close to thirty years. Although he had some things in his life that challenged him, he never became a "Well Order and Discipline" issue and served out his time honorably. He has had to fight pretty hard to get the benefits he needs to lead a normal life.
On the other hand, the example I gave above, the Soldier was a constant drain on the system (apparently from day one, having talked to her Platoon Sergeant) and managed to game it out right to her ETS.
We've got to come up with a better system to identify and treat that which is legitimate and never again drop the standards to a point where we are welcoming in trouble by lowering our recruiting standards to meet political pressures.
Sorry about that, I got distracted.
No worries. I think the biggest problem we have in raising and maintaining a truly professional fighting force, is how we treat those who answer the call once they're no longer needed. I had guys in my unit who were more trouble than they were worth and it was a happy day when they ETS's or got kicked out, but it's hard to attract and keep quality troops when the fact that they qualify for "quality", means they can also recognize the pitfalls and have other options in life than a judge saying jail or service. :(
Geez... tell us how you really feel!
(glad I made E-9...)
THIS!!!!!
Everyone likes to have this romantic image of every GI being Ranger Joe with whitewalls who stands at parade rest everywhere and knocks out 6 pull ups before sitting down for lunch.
NEWP.
Knew lots of guys, mostly MPs, who were lazy, sorry, chickenshit, call dodging, buck passing, braggart pieces of human filth of whom I would not micturate upon had I just drank turpentine.
Guys with "war stories" of going downrange to a German whorehouse and equating their "deployment" to Germany as being equal to or greater than some dude going to Fallujah.
Or they think their rank carries over to the popo world.
NEWP.
So they can take Veteran's Pref and cram it up their sorry asses.
I get the intention behind it. Joe comes home and should get a little due.
But for every solid guy it benefits there are 20 underbiters who play the "I was in the
military, where my free shit, office, and coffee at?" deal
Which defeats the purpose.
Make everything clean slate competitive. Across the board. If someone has relevant experience aside from showing up and drinking coffee. Great.
But otherwise, piss off.
I may catch flak, but I known too many Easy E8s in civilian police life Retired on Duty sitting back and thumb twiddling while everyone else is in a fight, dispersing a crowd, or having to do a lot of paperwork and the radio is hot and popping with calls.
But hey....they were in the Army and you are literally ISIS if you call them out on their sorriness
ETA GLARING sorriness as both officers and human beings. I sometimes wish to meet their mothers and ask, most sincerely, why didnt you take the pill or why she thought it would be amusing to just drop them on their head all day. Like really? No good soap operas on? Did you DELIBERATELY feed them lead paint chips?
My 17 year old son just received his appointment to the US Military Academy. He graduates from High School in May and goes for his training next Summer and starts as a 1st year cadet the Fall of 2017. He is in his 4th year of JROTC and Battalion Commander for his school. He has seen some other students drop out of school, get a GED and go into the Army. It seems they scored high on the ASVAB and enlisted in the Army Reserve or Guard, mostly in mechanical MOS's. Some have washed out of basic due to "injuries", some screwed up in AIT for one thing or another.
This is most likely a good thing. Thin the herd of dirtbags and losers and fill the ranks with a new group that hopefully are better. I expect a big push for new soldiers in the next 4 years, kind of like what helped me get in after the big RIF following Vietnam and the knee jerk reaction and realization that they ran off too many commissioned officers. In 1977 they were sending college ROTC recruiters to high schools, talking to students that were college bound.
Responses to this thread have been enlightening to say the least.
The Army has always had it's share of screw ups and bums who should have never been let in. When you're the Headquarters Company 2LT or 1LT, you generally handle the personnel issues first before kicking them upstairs for additional processing. I saw every kind of drug issue, alcoholism, domestic violence and even larceny with removing government property from the installation. It was an ongoing issue when I was in from 1977-1999. Nothing new here.
Averageman
12-01-16, 18:16
So, if twenty thousand are being kicked out, how do we replace them?
Do we do a Reagan era "Be All That You Can Be" resurgence with an up kick of standards for enlistment?
Do we see massive pay raises to keep and enlist those with the highest skill levels?
Do we go backwards to the old Skills Qualifications Testing that determined you promotion and re-enlistment status?
Do we now with a true Secretary of Defense up the Standards all of the way around and place the true emphasis on leadership at the lowest levels and hold Leaders accountable?
I'm really hoping to see all of the above. I would like to see a resurgence and a renewed pride and professionalism.
If I could ask for the above and add one more thing, I would like to see the end of electronic media dominating all forms of information exchange. An e-mail doesn't take the place of interaction and one on one time with Soldiers and their status and issues. The more blocks we check on a spread sheet, the fewer barracks rooms and individual one on one training we check.
Coal Dragger
12-01-16, 19:48
The first thing we do to replace them is to make sure we have more qualified applicants.
That means reforming public schools to stop churning out whiny fat little baby dicks. Mandatory PE classes from K-12 with an emphasis on actual PT from grades 8-12, that means strength training, cardio, and other activities that develop strength, endurance, flexibility, and coordination.
While we're at it no more safe spaces or other whiny pussy avoid hurt feelings bullshit. No more participation awards, that's for the Special Olympics. Hold these damn kids accountable. Hell if they get unruly let teachers whip their asses if needs be. Just because some of these little turds get no discipline at home doesn't mean they should be able to act like shit bags at school.
Eurodriver
12-01-16, 20:10
As for dudes gaming disability; unfortunate side effect of the way the system is. I'm at 60% VA without the freebie PTSD or tinnitus claims because I don't have it. But you'll see non-deployed POG ass PFCs rating 50% for PTSD from "anxiety" caused by some big ol meanie NCO in their unit.
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u428/kingalbert2/sqsdqsd/mvpc_zpsb4996c64.jpg
I'm of two minds on this one. I think both sides are right. Are many of the 20K shitbirds? Undoubtedly. Are more than a few decent troops who truly suffered getting swept up in the same net? Undoubtedly.
Trying to create an accurate depiction of the issue using broad brush will net you a pretty crappy result. All of you should know that by now. :(
Yep plenty of shit birds when I served as well. Pretty sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle, which is usually the case.
Digital_Damage
12-01-16, 21:45
So, if twenty thousand are being kicked out, how do we replace them?
Do we do a Reagan era "Be All That You Can Be" resurgence with an up kick of standards for enlistment?
Do we see massive pay raises to keep and enlist those with the highest skill levels?
Do we go backwards to the old Skills Qualifications Testing that determined you promotion and re-enlistment status?
Do we now with a true Secretary of Defense up the Standards all of the way around and place the true emphasis on leadership at the lowest levels and hold Leaders accountable?
I'm really hoping to see all of the above. I would like to see a resurgence and a renewed pride and professionalism.
If I could ask for the above and add one more thing, I would like to see the end of electronic media dominating all forms of information exchange. An e-mail doesn't take the place of interaction and one on one time with Soldiers and their status and issues. The more blocks we check on a spread sheet, the fewer barracks rooms and individual one on one training we check.
At the current man power there is no reason to find replacements. Just cut the dead weight, they cause more work than they accomplish.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-02-16, 01:34
I don't know how the Army works....but in the Corps you had to WANT to be kicked out to be cut loose. I had Marines that worked for me/with me/over me that did really bad things, some of them repeatedly did these things, and still made it as far as they wanted to go.
DUI and insubordination were usually good candidates for an NJP and restriction. I can't honestly remember someone I knew getting kicked out for being bad.
My point being, if the Army is anything like this, you had to really have a history of 1) Not being liked by your command 2) repeatedly doing stupid things 3) doing some really bad things.
Point being, WE LET THEM IN. To my way of thinking, if they got broke while in, even if they shouldn't have been in, they need our support. You get banged up with a TBI from an IED, I think you should get cut some slack.
I have/had a minor TBI compared to what many of these guys have gone through. My wife will tell you that it changed certain aspects of my personality.
Your painting 20,000 plus soldiers with a pretty broad brush.
That's where I'm at.
I don't care if it's the Dirty Dozen or the Dirty Two Thousand. If we put them in uniform and then put them in harms way, they are Uncle Sam's foster kids. Kicking combat vets to the curb because their PTSD might be bogus is pretty poor form.
Now if it's some guy who never deployed or saw real combat, then that is of course a different story. If the military relaxed standards because we needed more guys to hammer Mosul then so be it, I don't care if they were the B squad, the military engaged in a contract and they need to hold up their end of it.
The only worse thing about BS wars that we don't decisively win, with half assed goals and objectives and no clear end game, is the people who step up to fight them and are hindered by restrictive ROE or squandered with no real regard for who has to actually do what. The only thing worse than that is for them to be marginalized when it is all over.
And if Kev doesn't want fat kids in the military then they shouldn't make uniforms that size. Of course that would mean a lot of generals would have to wear civies.
Hopefully I'm wrong and guys like docsherm and GTF425 are right and nobody isn't getting exactly what needs to be done after getting 100 chances. I'd just hate to think a few guys who honestly did their best aren't getting victimized twice, when it comes to guys in uniform I generally err on the side of caution.
Eurodriver
12-02-16, 05:40
I don't know how the Army works....but in the Corps you had to WANT to be kicked out to be cut loose. I had Marines that worked for me/with me/over me that did really bad things, some of them repeatedly did these things, and still made it as far as they wanted to go.
DUI and insubordination were usually good candidates for an NJP and restriction. I can't honestly remember someone I knew getting kicked out for being bad.
My point being, if the Army is anything like this, you had to really have a history of 1) Not being liked by your command 2) repeatedly doing stupid things 3) doing some really bad things.
We had a 24 year old hoodlum have sex with some SNCO's daughter he met at the base bowling alley. He went to the brig for 30 days but even he wasn't kicked out...despite being convicted of statutory rape with a victim under 16 years old. :(
He was the only Marine I ever swung on the entire time I was in. Just a total and complete piece of shit. Many mornings after formation/1stSgt inspection I would spend my time throwing all of his clothes in the shower, dumping laundry detergent on the pile and then turning the hot water on...or throwing his possessions over the second floor balcony at Mackey Hall. The kid just didn't give a ****. No haircuts, showing up late, DUIs, you ****ing name it he did it.
But yeah, like you said, he still got an honorable discharge and made it through all 4 years (as a PFC). Probably collecting VA benefits right now too. How does that work?
Averageman
12-02-16, 08:12
At the current man power there is no reason to find replacements. Just cut the dead weight, they cause more work than they accomplish.
The problem with that is the weight wont be cut where it more than likely needs to be cut.
If you have been through this, seen this or were raised in and around the Military, this song and dance is not new. These things are done with a cleaver rather than a scalpel.
The results usually entail the Dog having many fewer teeth and a larger tail and that's just not the dog you want to take in to the fight. It usually takes five or so years to rebalance the system.
With our new Secretary of Defense taking over, I have a feeling this could be done a lot faster and more efficiently.
Edit to add; When they get the entire program completed, I would like to see the numbers of those who required a waiver to enlist and what percentage of those being forced out fall in that category.
KalashniKEV
12-02-16, 09:56
I don't care if it's the Dirty Dozen
If the military relaxed standards because we needed more guys to hammer Mosul then so be it, I don't care if they were the B squad, the military engaged in a contract and they need to hold up their end of it.
You don't care because you don't have to lead them in combat.
There is never a "need" for unqualified applicants.
They are all more trouble than they're worth.
And if Kev doesn't want fat kids in the military then they shouldn't make uniforms that size. Of course that would mean a lot of generals would have to wear civies.
I always wondered why General Petraeus didn't Chapter 18 COL Steele... guess he was gettin' busy with other things...
That means reforming public schools...
Exactamundo, and that's why I made it a point to mention it.
The public schools are a direct link, and that's where the real formative years are.
It was an ongoing issue when I was in from 1977-1999. Nothing new here.
There is a reason I nailed it in #2, and you might think it's "nothing new."
I was in from 1998-2009.
There was a definite change, and it was felt by all.
It was not normal and it has never been done before.
Here's a bit of truth: If the person is a good Soldier, higher ups and people processing their paperwork will go far out of their way to help the Soldier stay in or get the help they need.
Then you have people who love telling tall tales and making up sh*t about how they're being "persecuted for PTSD."
This would probably be a case of the latter.
Spurholder
12-02-16, 11:23
Mike Steele. Haven't heard that name in a while. Didn't miss not hearing it, either.
KalashniKEV
12-02-16, 11:38
Mike Steele. Haven't heard that name in a while. Didn't miss not hearing it, either.
Hahahaa... I spent all my time on AD in 1st BDE, but I have some great stories via a friend from IOBC.
(...and some sad/ bad ones)
Spurholder
12-02-16, 12:15
Met Rakkasan Six back in Iraq 2005. I remember him being very impressed with himself.
You don't care because you don't have to lead them in combat.
There is never a "need" for unqualified applicants.
They are all more trouble than they're worth.
[/QUOTE]
So why were they there? Make no mistake, the primary reason I oppose the draft is so people who choose to serve aren't saddled down with flunkies they cannot depend on. So I really do get that consideration.
But if these guys were unsuitable applicants from the jump, why were they sworn in? Why were they sent to combat? That seems to be the real problem.
But once you put a guy in uniform and send him to fight, I think we as a nation become very responsible for him. Now if somebody is a serious f up and always putting everyone at risk, then by all means bring their military service to an end if you can't find something they can do without screwing it up.
I think it is the wholesale discharge that concerns me. If it were an ongoing "case by case" process of finding "bad apples" that would be different. But I'd hate to see somebody who signed up because they felt it is what they needed to do, actually went to war because they were sent and then got drummed out because they were a "fat kid" who couldn't keep up with everyone else, especially if there is the possibility that any of them might have legit PTSD issues.
I'm pretty frugal when it comes to spending tax dollars the government keeps from my income, but if we are going to spend it, taking care of people in uniform should be damn near top of the list.
Like I said earlier, I hope you guys are right and we are just getting rid of guys who got 100 chances to get it together and still can't stop being a liability, especially if their PTSD claims are bogus and they are the military equivalent of the FSA. I just worry about guys who "honestly did their best and who might have problems they need help with" being tossed with the rest.
KalashniKEV
12-02-16, 14:28
I just worry about guys who "honestly did their best and who might have problems they need help with" being tossed with the rest.
Like the Major I knew who walked around everywhere with his mouth open, was obviously slow or dim, and had no problem telling slide turners at any-level-briefing "I'm sorryyy, I'm a slow readerrr, can you go back?" (like... at least a dozen times)
LOL!
NO. There is now a return to Standards and Discipline. You didn't make the cut.
Ma'asalaama, and take your ACUs with you.
Spurholder
12-02-16, 14:52
I went to ILE with a couple of guys like that. And I worked for more than one O-6 mouth breather that would read aloud every last detail on every last slide during the commander's update brief. The joys of being a "combat arms staff beyotch."
KalashniKEV
12-02-16, 15:42
And I worked for more than one O-6 mouth breather...
Shit. I just googled the person I was talking about.
He made O-5.
Have you ever seen EIGHT (8) visible teeth in a command photo of a person who wasn't smiling?
(No, I'm completely not kidding... the count is EIGHT)
Spurholder
12-02-16, 16:02
Damn, that's funny as hell.
Like the Major I knew who walked around everywhere with his mouth open, was obviously slow or dim, and had no problem telling slide turners at any-level-briefing "I'm sorryyy, I'm a slow readerrr, can you go back?" (like... at least a dozen times)
LOL!
NO. There is now a return to Standards and Discipline. You didn't make the cut.
Ma'asalaama, and take your ACUs with you.
By "did their best" I mean "did their duty, in combat" and by "might have problems" I mean "combat related stress isssues." But I'd take a dozen slow country boys who won't leave your ass hanging over good readers like Bergdahl any day.
Great comments in this thread. Let me be clear that I do not support booting soldiers out who have PTSD. Everyone is wired differently and everyone can take various levels of stress. I have also seen the various quality of officers to be found in Company, Field and Command positions. You see some real outstanding people, and some real morons. I gave up trying to figure out how some ranked as fast as they did, but I guessed some political maneuvering.
I was not a service academy grad, but a college ROTC cadet. Did an early form of the early commissioning program mixed with the simultaneous membership program. I had a 4 year ROTC scholarship and was enlisted in the Reserves my Freshman & Sophomore years of college. I didn't choose Combat Arms because I hated running and long marches. That was hard for me when I did Jump School in the late Summer of 1978, and Air Assault in July of 1983. I was initially in M.I. as a Photo Interpretation Analyst. In fact I was M.I. in 1982 when I was offered flight school. Ended up flying but also served as the S-2 in two aviation units. I was a multi-purpose officer...:happy: It came in handy when I was in Central America 1984-1985.
KalashniKEV
12-02-16, 17:27
I was initially in M.I. as a Photo Interpretation Analyst.
96D???
http://www.troll.me/images/mah-nigga/-thumb.jpg
96D???
http://www.troll.me/images/mah-nigga/-thumb.jpg
Negative....96B, at first, then 96D. While in college at the University of Arizona, I was during Reserve duty at Fort Huachuca, then Basic Intel Course there in 1979. Under the new MOS system, my son going to West Point wants to do M.I. as well, but focusing on HUMINT.
Averageman
12-02-16, 18:09
Exactamundo, and that's why I made it a point to mention it.
The public schools are a direct link, and that's where the real formative years are.
There is a reason I nailed it in #2, and you might think it's "nothing new."
I was in from 1998-2009.
There was a definite change, and it was felt by all.
It was not normal and it has never been done before.
I appreciate your service, but honestly, you're a "Blip" on the radar.
I enjoy your posts, sometimes they piss me off, but they are most often thought provoking.
I have to disagree, because it has been done before, as I mentioned McNamara's Project 100,000.
http://www.blackpast.org/gah/project-100-000-1966-1971
He called it Project 100,000 stating that due to “appalling and tragic poverty in the United States,” over 100,000 young men per year did not qualify under Department of Defense fitness standards for active duty. He then argued that with the military’s advanced education and medical techniques, those men could have successful military careers and later be productive members of society.
The label, “New Standards Men,” was given to those recruits who were enlisted under the Project 100,000 guidelines. These recruits scored in an average range of 10 to 15 on mathematics and 16-20 on verbal skills on the Armed Forces Qualifying Test (AFQT). A score of 10 is the equivalent to a fifth grade education and many recruits were considered borderline or mildly “retarded.” McNamara never officially coupled the program with manpower needs in Vietnam. Rather he touted the program as benefitting the disadvantaged and boosting military volunteerism.
The “typical” Project 100,000 recruit was Caucasian in his early 20s and a high school dropout with sixth grade reading and mathematics abilities. Black and Latino men, however, were vastly overrepresented in Project 100,000. Of the New Standards Men, over 40% were African Americans and of that number, 65% were from the South. Some recruits were unable to speak English,
Out of the New Standards Men, African Americans were 44.5 percent of those who received combat assignments as opposed to 38.8 percent of whites. In the early years of the project, African Americans also comprised an overwhelming majority of New Standards battle deaths. In the Marine Corps alone, blacks comprised 58% of the marines in what were considered dangerous military occupations in Vietnam.
The Pentagon began phasing out Project 100,000 in 1971 in efforts reach a “zero draft” status. In spite of Robert McNamara’s hopes for better lives for these soldiers, information gathered in the years after revealed that Project 100,000 men were “either no better off or actually worse off than their civilian counterparts.”
So unless this is total BS, yeah, it's been done before and it's likely to have been done with worse effect.
When you consider the Army's minimum AFPT requirements, a large number of recruits cannot meet those standards. Most can do one or two of the requirements for Push ups, Curl ups and the two mile run, but many cannot score all three at the 60% minimum. Consider the fact that the two mile run for a 17 year old male has to be done in 15:54 at a minimum and you eliminate a bunch of couch potato, xBox One "athletes". Your average High School student couldn't do it. A robotics class, Physics and Calculus scholar with a 4.5 GPA can do exceptionally well on the ASVAB, but won't do as well on the AFPT. To find a hybrid candidate between an overnight sports athlete and an honor roll student is getting harder to find these days.
The new Army, combining brawn and brains, is in a predicament in finding quality candidates in high enough numbers to meet manpower needs for combat arms and the highly technical support fields.
When you consider the Army's minimum AFPT requirements, a large number of recruits cannot meet those standards. Most can do one or two of the requirements for Push ups, Curl ups and the two mile run, but many cannot score all three at the 60% minimum. Consider the fact that the two mile run for a 17 year old male has to be done in 15:54 at a minimum and you eliminate a bunch of couch potato, xBox One "athletes". Your average High School student couldn't do it. A robotics class, Physics and Calculus scholar with a 4.5 GPA can do exceptionally well on the ASVAB, but won't do as well on the AFPT. To find a hybrid candidate between an overnight sports athlete and an honor roll student is getting harder to find these days.
The new Army, combining brawn and brains, is in a predicament in finding quality candidates in high enough numbers to meet manpower needs for combat arms and the highly technical support fields.
You can coach fitness/endurance within reason. Base intellect is a different matter.
The thing that has disturbed me in several of these posts is the references to the school system needing to change in order to have better youngsters. If you stop to think about it, that is pretty much right down the socialist 'let the government raise your kids' mindset.
I'm responsible for my kids, not a school. The example set when they are at home carries over into the way they conduct themselves at school. The root problem is the breakdown of the family unit and parent not being parents. There are myriad reasons for that which can be cussed and discussed elsewhere.
It's when the kiddies are at school, that you see the result of parenting, or the lack thereof. But it's deeper than that. We've gone from a large agrarian society to one that is more technologically advanced and connected. Instead of going outside, going somewhere to meet friends and doing something, they text and chat on the handheld devices. Instead of interacting with another human face to face, you are friends or not with the click of a button.
Schools act only as a showcase to what is happening in the child's life the other 17 hours of the day. Many times it's a sedentary lifestyle and time in the academic environment is the only time they do anything physical, or challenge to the mind. For my two kids under the age of 18, plus part of the life for my eldest son who is an adult, the lifestyle on a remote ranch provided lots of outdoor activity and physical labor. Maybe it's good reliable cell phone service has not reached this part of New Mexico....
It's when the kiddies are at school, that you see the result of parenting, or the lack thereof. But it's deeper than that. We've gone from a large agrarian society to one that is more technologically advanced and connected. Instead of going outside, going somewhere to meet friends and doing something, they text and chat on the handheld devices. Instead of interacting with another human face to face, you are friends or not with the click of a button.
Schools act only as a showcase to what is happening in the child's life the other 17 hours of the day. Many times it's a sedentary lifestyle and time in the academic environment is the only time they do anything physical, or challenge to the mind. For my two kids under the age of 18, plus part of the life for my eldest son who is an adult, the lifestyle on a remote ranch provided lots of outdoor activity and physical labor. Maybe it's good reliable cell phone service has not reached this part of New Mexico....
Not to argue a somewhat valid point, but even in my days there were "nintendo kids" who did nothing but play games all day. There were also arcade kids who just pumped quarters into the feeder bar machine. Before that there were kids who were "glued to the TV set." But despite those things, there were always kids that went outside to play "kill the guy with the ball" or something similar.
While I despair the days when "every kid could be found at the mall on weekends", I don't think we are in crisis mode yet. We are currently under greater threat of mainstream heroin addiction (again, it's like nobody remembers the 1970s) than we are at risk of technological slavery.
In 1981, my dad bought me an Apple II computer and I probably spent several hours daily writing programs, playing games, etc. My father was probably equally concerned that I wasn't outside "doing something" and grateful that I was knowledgeable about new technologies. It can be a balancing act. I knew kids that were freshman and lived computers, programmers who knew everything but weighed more than my Dad. It happened then, it happens now.
But at the same time, there are kids chasing each other through the woods today with airsoft guns because they'd rather play it in real life than play it online. There will always be those kids.
It's when the kiddies are at school, that you see the result of parenting, or the lack thereof. But it's deeper than that. We've gone from a large agrarian society to one that is more technologically advanced and connected. Instead of going outside, going somewhere to meet friends and doing something, they text and chat on the handheld devices. Instead of interacting with another human face to face, you are friends or not with the click of a button.
Schools act only as a showcase to what is happening in the child's life the other 17 hours of the day. Many times it's a sedentary lifestyle and time in the academic environment is the only time they do anything physical, or challenge to the mind. For my two kids under the age of 18, plus part of the life for my eldest son who is an adult, the lifestyle on a remote ranch provided lots of outdoor activity and physical labor. Maybe it's good reliable cell phone service has not reached this part of New Mexico....
Schools act only as a showcase to what is happening in the child's life the other 17 hours of the day - great way to say this. I agree.
You can coach fitness/endurance within reason. Base intellect is a different matter.
The thing that has disturbed me in several of these posts is the references to the school system needing to change in order to have better youngsters. If you stop to think about it, that is pretty much right down the socialist 'let the government raise your kids' mindset.
I'm responsible for my kids, not a school. The example set when they are at home carries over into the way they conduct themselves at school. The root problem is the breakdown of the family unit and parent not being parents. There are myriad reasons for that which can be cussed and discussed elsewhere.
Yeah, I think that's a lot of it. Day care just isn't going to raise your kids with the same level of concern or the same values as parent who cares. All other things being equal, trying to raise your kids as a single parent will always be harder then with two parents.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the Old Fart around here (I'll be 57 in February)? The first piece of real "technology" I remember was the digital calculator in the mid 70's and the Pong Machine I would hook up to the TV, to my parent's dismay. Other than that, I rode horses until the beast and myself were tuckered out, or I'd be outside shooting at something. I had the original Hasbro G.I. Joe's in the 60's, even before the bearded ones of the early 1970s. I was in heaven when I got my first cassette recorder/player @ 1973.
The athletics I did In High School was being the place kicker on the Varsity Football team. I was good, but I wasn't going to college on a sports scholarship. I was first recruited by the Navy for a 2 year ROTC scholarship. They wanted me to be a SWO (Surface Warfare Officer). The Army countered with a 4 year scholarship and I took that deal. My ASVAB I took in school demonstrated they didn't want me for anything that required a lot of walking or grunt stuff. They wanted my brain, thus the Intel Analyst MOS. I was well into M.I. after my commission and graduation that Aviation came looking for me, and it was at the right time since I was getting bored with being inside all the time. I approached my flight training like handling a fine quarter horse. It served me well, handling my aircraft like the interaction I'd have with a wild Texas Cayuse.
My 17 year old goes to the US Military Academy next year and will play Baseball on their team. I had him in Albuquerque before Thanksgiving doing his DODMERB physical. He's smarter than me, but he also has that wild streak like all the men in my family. He want's M.I. like I started out with, but maybe he'll do something a little more aggressive like me???
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the Old Fart around here (I'll be 57 in February)? The first piece of real "technology" I remember was the digital calculator in the mid 70's and the Pong Machine I would hook up to the TV, to my parent's dismay. Other than that, I rode horses until the beast and myself were tuckered out, or I'd be outside shooting at something. I had the original Hasbro G.I. Joe's in the 60's, even before the bearded ones of the early 1970s. I was in heaven when I got my first cassette recorder/player @ 1973.
The athletics I did In High School was being the place kicker on the Varsity Football team. I was good, but I wasn't going to college on a sports scholarship. I was first recruited by the Navy for a 2 year ROTC scholarship. They wanted me to be a SWO (Surface Warfare Officer). The Army countered with a 4 year scholarship and I took that deal. My ASVAB I took in school demonstrated they didn't want me for anything that required a lot of walking or grunt stuff. They wanted my brain, thus the Intel Analyst MOS. I was well into M.I. after my commission and graduation that Aviation came looking for me, and it was at the right time since I was getting bored with being inside all the time. I approached my flight training like handling a fine quarter horse. It served me well, handling my aircraft like the interaction I'd have with a wild Texas Cayuse.
My 17 year old goes to the US Military Academy next year and will play Baseball on their team. I had him in Albuquerque before Thanksgiving doing his DODMERB physical. He's smarter than me, but he also has that wild streak like all the men in my family. He want's M.I. like I started out with, but maybe he'll do something a little more aggressive like me???
You aren't much older than me. I remember playing Pong in the store...for hours...when it came out. But like you I also did other things.
I wasn't a natural athlete so when it came to school sports I was last to be picked and never went out for the teams. Thankfully I discovered martial arts which permitted me to progress at my own rate and I've been doing it ever since. I had a brief foray into gymnastics in high school because of some crossover ability but it soon became apparent I was a "one trick pony" who could do impressive things on the pommel horse but was almost useless in every other category, and I really had no interest in even attempting to master rings, floor or any of the other stuff. My primary contribution was offering some useful tips to other guys on the team that improved their pommel horse skills.
Not to invoke the "N" word, but early involvement with shinobi arts in 1981 had me doing lots of running, jumping and climbing all while trying to remain unseen. At least I had fun and it kept me in shape. My dream house always involved having a military style obstacle course in the back yard.
Coal Dragger
12-03-16, 02:34
Not to invoke the "N" word, but early involvement with shinobi arts in 1981 had me doing lots of running, jumping and climbing all while trying to remain unseen. At least I had fun and it kept me in shape. My dream house always involved having a military style obstacle course in the back yard.
Does it make me a terrible person that I immediately assumed you were referring to the more infamous "N" word, and that if I hand't read the part about shinobi arts I would have assumed you were talking about being a hooligan running from the police?
Does it make me a terrible person that I immediately assumed you were referring to the more infamous "N" word, and that if I hand't read the part about shinobi arts I would have assumed you were talking about being a hooligan running from the police?
Not really, alternate use of the "N" word is something of an inside joke among martial artists. Everyone is taken seriously until somebody is a member of the Koga Ryu.
Eurodriver
12-03-16, 05:44
You guys are super old. Kev, who I thought was my age, joined the Army almost a decade before I joined the Corps. I won't even touch OH58D or Steyrs ages ;)
And how come I never met anyone who did martial arts or liked ninjas the way you did/do Steyr?
Hahahaa... I spent all my time on AD in 1st BDE, but I have some great stories via a friend from IOBC.
(...and some sad/ bad ones)
I thought I recognized your avatar.
From everyone I've spoken to (I don't live very far from Ft. Campbell) Steele was/is a first-class POS.
ramairthree
12-03-16, 09:59
You guys are super old. Kev, who I thought was my age, joined the Army almost a decade before I joined the Corps. I won't even touch OH58D or Steyrs ages ;)
And how come I never met anyone who did martial arts or liked ninjas the way you did/do Steyr?
Yep, those dudes are old as shit.
58D was getting a cassette player about the time I was getting my new fangled GI Joes with the confusing like Afro hair beard stuff on the white guys.
You guys are super old. Kev, who I thought was my age, joined the Army almost a decade before I joined the Corps. I won't even touch OH58D or Steyrs ages ;)
And how come I never met anyone who did martial arts or liked ninjas the way you did/do Steyr?
Hey kid, your nose is running.
You guys are super old. Kev, who I thought was my age, joined the Army almost a decade before I joined the Corps. I won't even touch OH58D or Steyrs ages ;)
And how come I never met anyone who did martial arts or liked ninjas the way you did/do Steyr?
Because I'm the last of them. Nobody knows they still exist, everyone thinks they are extinct.
:sarcastic:
Because I'm the last of them. Nobody knows they still exist, everyone thinks they are extinct.
:sarcastic:
Whats all these bullshit superman stories I keep hearing about the WA SAAA SteyrAUG catching bullets with this teeth? Catches BULLETS with his TEETH?!
Ninja, please...
Whats all these bullshit superman stories I keep hearing about the WA SAAA SteyrAUG catching bullets with this teeth? Catches BULLETS with his TEETH?!
Ninja, please...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Dcx0S1JY8
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