View Full Version : Allosaurus vs. T. Rex...
ramairthree
12-09-16, 20:02
Comparing a Beretta M9A3 to a CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical is about as relevant to some as the title suggests.
For the most part, we don't live in a DA/SA world anymore.
Technologically, it is sort of like comparing the merits of a third gen Camaro/firebird to a third gen Mustang.
Yet, depending on whether you show up to the drag strip or road course, a guy in a new Mustang, Challenger, or Camaro may well have his ass handed to him by a guy in a third gen despite the more advanced technology he brings to the meet. Just as a DA/SA shooter walks away with a trophy while the guy with a Glock, XDM, or M&P looks on.
This will be a multipart comparison I do in stages.
Round 1
I chose equivalent tactical/defensive pistols from CZ and Beretta.
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/IMG_0205_zpsotyy8umc.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/IMG_0205_zpsotyy8umc.jpg.html)
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/IMG_0207_zps3ivkja2i.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/IMG_0207_zps3ivkja2i.jpg.html)
Like the Allosaurus, the beretta was around first and a little lighter.
Price-
You will walk away about 200$ richer if you buy the CZ.
B-0, CZ-1
Looks,
Well, it is like asking if you would rather bang Monica or Rachel from Friends.
Yes, tie.
B-0.5, CZ-1.5
Features-
The Beretta and CZ are very similar here. You get an extended mag release and extra mag with the Beretta. You get an extra grip. With the CZ, you get suppressor height sights. The sights glow better on my CZ. You get more capacity with the CZ mags.
Tie again.
B-1, CZ-2
Construction. All steel for the CZ vs an aluminum frame for the Beretta. Both are solid, smooth, actions.
B-1, CZ-3
Ergonomics.
The CZ is just a better hand fit. And while the grips are nothing awesome, they are better than the Beretta's material. But the CZ mag release is like the standard Berettas. Many need to shift their grip to use. This is not the case with the Beretta release on this model. And you have more slide to operate. Overall, especially when wet, this model Beretta does have an edge.
B-2, CZ-3
Options
Beretta is not a company to praise when it comes to factory availability of parts and prices, nor for holster availability and prices, cheapest mags, etc. Yet, compared to CZ, just a quick look for grips, mag release options, mags, etc. and it has an edge.
B-3, CZ-3
Trigger
While I have handled CZs with better triggers than Berettas, out of the box there was an edge to the Beretta here. They both decock. If you went with the non decocking CZ or had work done, you have more potential with the CZ, but out of the box, Beretta edges it out here.
B-4, CZ-3
Durability
CZs are not perfect. But at the end of the day I have seen way more broken locking blocks, etc. than slide stops. The Beretta is not the falling apart in your hands abortion some claim! But I am going to have to give the edge to CZ.
B-4, CZ-4
User friendliness.
There are a few things on each model that drive me nuts. Neither are the simplist pistol to work on or put an optic on. I am going to call this a tie.
B-4.5, CZ-4.5
Packaging
The typical beretta box tend to be cheap junk now that breaks a clasp on the second use, but the M9A3 comes in a better box. The CZ comes in a box that is better than the standard Berreta box and not as gay as the fake ammo can. Both are adequate. Tie.
5 to 5 tie this round.
There are plenty of other options in the full sized, threaded barrel, railed niche.
Not as many all metal DA/SAs to choose from.
You can debate better out of box trigger vs potential for better trigger,
Higher cost negated by extra mag and oversized mag release, but un-negated by better sights, but un-un-negated by cheaper mags, etc., frame decocker trumps all, better checkering vs better may well bevel, I don't need suppressor height sights, etc.
Round two will be an accuracy, speed test.
At the end of the day,
If you are looking for a full sized, threaded barrel, night sight gun,
I would ask-
Are you wanting all metal or good to go with polymer?
If you are an all metal guy,
Are you an SA or SA/DA guy?
Only if you are an all metal, DA SA guy would I recommend one of these two guns.
If that is the case,
I would ask if you already have a Beretta or CZ and say go with what you already have mags and stuff for.
If you do not already have one,
I would ask if saving a couple of hundred bucks matters or not.
If the wallet is thin, get the CZ. You will save enough for four more mags and an oversized release.
If it makes no difference, get the Beretta.
Disclaimer-
I have been shooting the Beretta since being issued an M9 about thirty years ago, bought my first 92 around 1990, have dozens of Berettas, and have put hundreds of thousands of rounds through them.
I have only put a few thousand rounds through CZs, and have way less time behind them.
I was not a Delta or ST6 Operator.
I am very impressed by CZs marketing and customer base responsiveness.
I am dismayed and disgusted with Berettas handling of its flagship.
Interesting comparison. I look forward to updates. I just got the same CZ model but in black (It's one of the Kentucky Gun Co. "Exclusive" models) three days ago. I hemmed and hawed for a while over if I wanted the SP-01 or the classic aesthetics of the standard CZ-75 but finding an SP-01 with a factory threaded barrel and suppressor-height night sights, and in black (I'm kinda "meh" on CZ's Urban Grey finish.) sealed the deal for me.
My initial impressions are quite positive but I haven't had a chance to actually shoot the thing yet.
QuickStrike
12-10-16, 11:40
The T. rex is at least a 44 magnum compared to the 9mm/allosaurus. :p
I still have 2 CZ's but probably wont be getting anymore because of the long trigger reach for the DA pull. On the SP-01 I have to adjust my grip after the DA shot. No need to do that with my smaller P-01.
To be honest, if I were worried about a DA/SA breaking locking blocks and trigger return springs I would just go with a sig 226.
My mk-25's fit me best compared to the other two, but now I'm messing with a M9a3 because the grip is smaller.
Looking to buy a decock only lever for it now, which was briefly in stock..
It never ends.
OP;
Like you I own both..I have a Inox Vertec, and just a few weeks ago, I traded for a CZ SP-01 tactical, both are excellant shooters. The Beretta has a Wilson Combat #16 hammer spring, A factory steel trigger, and extended mag release, and Wilson Combat Vertec grips, and a set of decocker levers have already been ordered.By contrast, the CZ has a Cajun Gun Works extended firing pin kit, a#13 hammer spring and a #13 recoil spring, one of their reduced power trigger return springs and one of their trigger return spring pins. and a stainless guide rod. Unbelievebly, it also came with a set of VZ grips. IMO, the CZ has the better trigger in either mode, but in DA, it has no stacking, unlike the Beretta which has alot of stacking towards the end of the DA pull. (I'm considering a #14 hammer spring) However, If I were going to carry one, I'd probably carry the Beretta, as it's lighter than the CZ which weighs 40 oz..
ramairthree
12-12-16, 16:08
Round Two
Shootability
An afternoon with the son was in order today. Nice weather at about 50 instead of some of the recent cold.
Reliability
Each gun ate 100 rounds of Fioochi, S&B, WWB, Federal Champion, 124 grain Berry Minor PF reloads, and 147 Missouri Bullets hi Tek coated subsonic minor power reloads. No malfunctions. No failure to lock back on empty.
Tie
B-0.5, CZ-0.5
Grip and draw
The CZ has an edge. The factory grips are more gripable, especially when we wet the guns. the hand shape is more natural, and you get about 1/4 more length in front grip. Handy when gloved strings were made to compare. Average beep to complete strings were .06 faster with the CZ.
B-0.5, CZ-1.5
Trigger
Out of the box, live fire trigger action goes to the beretta here. Less reach, less take up, less travel, less reset.
While a non decocker CZ may have edged it out, and you may be able to make this CZ trigger better than the Beretta with work, out of the box is what was being compared.
B-1.5, CZ-2
Combat Accuracy
On the beep strings of ten controlled shots were shot at 10 yards.
This was not NRA one minute per shot, but it was not as fast as humanly possible either.
Times ranged from 4.35 to 4.86
The pictures show an example of the results.
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/IMG_1066_zps1ismn02e.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/IMG_1066_zps1ismn02e.jpg.html)
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/IMG_1065_zpsej4kuzqh.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/IMG_1065_zpsej4kuzqh.jpg.html)
The CZ had the edge.
The steel framed gun has about 6 ounces on the Beretta.
Another round will test intrinsic accuracy. But for combat accuracy the win does to CZ.
B-1.5, CZ-2.5
Ergonomics-
The slide mounted decocker is not the stretch the frame mounted one is.
However, the slide release is shorter on the CZ. Not operable from my grip like the Beretta is. I also have to break my grip for the mag release on the CZ. Same with a normal beretta, but not with this version with the extended mag release. The Beretta does not have front slide serrations, but is taller and easier to work. For mag changes, multiple make ready, etc. the Beretta comes out faster and back on target faster.
B-2.5, CZ-2.5
Magazines
Quality magazines make or break how your gun functions.
Both guns have high quality mags that lock back on empty,
They Berettas seem a little more finely made.
The bases on the CZ are not as brittle.
The Berettas cost a little less. The CZ holds more.
I am just going to call this a tie.
B-3, CZ-3
Sights
Neither gun has bad sights.
Out side, in the daylight, I was getting a better picture with the CZ.
In the dark, for whatever reason, I have better glow with the CZ.
CZ also sneaks in extra sight radius simply by having the rear sight slope back from the dovetail.
They are also suppressor height on a gun with a threaded barrel.
Have to hand it to CZ here.
B-3, CZ-4
Maintenance/Mechanics
I find it easier to take down and clean the Beretta.
Swapping or reversing the mag release is much easier on the Beretta.
Looking over some other replacements, swaps, etc. I give this edge to Beretta.
B-4, CZ-4
So, at the end of round two,
A couple things are clear to me.
A gun I am vastly more experienced and familiar with is not mopping up the competition.
This speaks very well for CZ.
These does not speak well of Beretta.
A Beretta 92 with a steel frame would be a serious contender to CZ in Production/SSP.
Update it to a framed mounted safety / decocker like the Taurus 92, and tweak a premium, factory trigger,
And I suspect trophies would be going to Beretta again.
The last round will be suppressed shooting, rest accuracy, etc.
Particularly good match up since the original designs - CZ-75 and Beretta 92 - are just about the exact same age. I sometimes forget the 92 dates back to the 70s too.
Interested in the suppressor results, that was part of my rationale behind getting the SP-01.
It occurred to me to ask you. Did you shoot the CZ with the thread protector in place? If so did you have any issues with it spinning off while firing?
Averageman
12-13-16, 06:52
It occurred to me to ask you. Did you shoot the CZ with the thread protector in place? If so did you have any issues with it spinning off while firing?
I had this issue with a Glock, you need to add the appropriated sized "O Ring" and it will stay in place.
Some People poo-poo'ed that idea when I first did it 10 years ago. Ten years and I'm on my third "O Ring" and haven't lost a thread protector except that first and last time.
ramairthree
12-13-16, 09:56
Yes, bot the Beretta and CZ get finger loose by 50 rounds. The CZ has the front set up so you can super tighten,
But as has been noted,
An O ring can give enough tension to remedy it.
FWIW I have a surplus CZ-75 and like it quite a bit. I owned a Vertec years back and it was okay I guess.
I doubt I would buy a new Beretta though I have thought about it before I got a milsurp CZ.
Now I want a CZ Shadow Tac II.
I still have a P226 more for nostalgia. It collects dust.
Yes, bot the Beretta and CZ get finger loose by 50 rounds. The CZ has the front set up so you can super tighten,
But as has been noted,
An O ring can give enough tension to remedy it.
I figured that was probably the purpose of the slots, but in my paranoia about dicking up a new gun I was leery of really torquing it down.
ramairthree
12-13-16, 13:01
I figured that was probably the purpose of the slots, but in my paranoia about dicking up a new gun I was leery of really torquing it down.
Concur.
Going full retard on tightening has jacked up far more things than it has solved be it cars, guns, etc.
Just got the G conversion for my 92, but got to actually install it on my 92 Brigadier Inox. I have a 96G Centurion slide to convert it to .40, but didn't want to do an irreversible conversion on that slide (it was the first pistol I purchased).
I also have a SP-01. Wanted the safety version over the Tactical, as I do like the option for cocked/locked. Very nice gun, and made sure to add a Kadet kit... since that is the only conversion kit I recommend. I had the barrel, stainless guide rod, and grip screws done in CCR's cera-plate. Very happy with how it came out.
Thank you posting this thread comparing two fine pistols.. One given of the Beretta is that the maker is producing them under technical rule agreed on decades ago by Beretta and our military. CZ advertises that their line enjoys widespread military/police use, but details are vague. I'm a fan of both. At the time that Beretta was producing "our" service pistol, CZ was a state owned company in a communist country. Having bought their brand over the years, I noticed that the CZ was spotty in quality. Some worked better than others, and were rough around the edges. Also, magazines were substandard. Even today their factory in house mags are less desirable than the Mec-Gars sometimes shipped with them. But these earlier conditions improved when CZ made changes allowing them to compete with other brands in a global market. None of my several B92's broke a locking block but two of my CZ's have broken trigger return springs. In all fairness, I must point out that B92 trigger springs also share this weakness, and I think that their locking block breaking rate has improved because of a very minor engineering change.
Having cut my teeth on DA/SA pistols, I have no difficulty operating the system but understand how it can complicate training programs loaded down with folks with almost no pistol shooting background. Readily I see that the guy whose only shooting has been done with a Glock would view either of the dinosaurs as cumbersome. Both designs have complicated mechanisms and are difficult to detail strip and even more so to reassemble, especially the CZ.
For my money the Beretta 92 is the world's best night stand or sock drawer pistol. Made to be reliable and manufactured under stringent control, I trust it to perform.
Of course, the CZ ain't bad either.
My take is, if you like the BHP you will love the CZ. More than a little influence.
A lot of countries used either CZ or CZ inspired pistols. It has been copied a bit.
You can easily make a beretta a good target/combat pistol. But my hang up on it is the slide mount safety. I can shoot one and owned one but it was the same issue with a DA/SA Gen 3 Smith. You can overcome it, but why?
Kinda outdated. CZ frame mount safety feels much better and is not so "in the way". Speaking for myself, if I am getting a steel gun I want to be comfortable.
Since I've never needed to purchase an O-ring to secure a muzzle device before, is there any specific type of O-ring I should get to help secure the CZ muzzle nut? A certain material that's resistant to melting or something? I may go the suppressor route at some point so in the meantime I'd prefer to keep the threads protected when using the gun.
You can easily make a beretta a good target/combat pistol. But my hang up on it is the slide mount safety. I can shoot one and owned one but it was the same issue with a DA/SA Gen 3 Smith. You can overcome it, but why?
$50, about 20 minutes of work, and bye-bye safety...
Just converted my F slide to G last night... and it is great.
MSparks909
12-14-16, 12:27
An often overlook positive aspect (at least to me) is one can decock/safe a Beretta without having to break a 2-handed grip. On my 92Gs I simply reach up with my strong hand thumb and decock. On Sigs and CZs I have to break my support hand grip to decock. On the flip side, if you have a non-G and do an immediate action remedy you *could* possibly safe the weapon. Pick your poison.
I'm a Beretta guy all the way now. Selling pretty much everything else I own except my 1911s and 2 9mm Glocks.
$50, about 20 minutes of work, and bye-bye safety...
Just converted my F slide to G last night... and it is great.
My vertec was a G. It still wasn't pleasant the lever on the slide. Fun pistola, I regret parting with it, but I am used to a slick slide.
On a Pre B there is no decock. You gotta keep it in condition 3 or do the old fashioned ride the hammer down and hope you dont have a brainfart.
Tzintzuntzan
12-15-16, 01:20
You want to know the difference between theropods? Paleobiologists have already answered this question literally centuries ago. Here is a quick image to demonstrate how this is a mismatch. If you want a gun analogy you are comparing an MP5 to a Beretta 1918.
42879
Now if you want to compare "apples to apples" then consider looking at Tyrannosaurus rex and the genus Charcharodontosaurus, species unspecified.
42880
I'm probably the biggest dinosaur nut on this forum but I opted not take the thread title too literally. I think OP was just picking two well known large theropods to drive his point home that the pistols he is comparing could be considered rather "outdated" but are still formidable.
I like Berettas. I really, really like CZ's. I have the Beretta 92FS, 85FS, 87BB, and a 21A I sometimes carry as a BUG. However, I have five CZ pistols, and have preferred the 75 platform for about 20 years, starting with a 75B in the mid 90's. I have not experienced the "rough finish" on my CZ's, or friends' CZ's, even internally. I guess I am just lucky. I find my CZ's more accurate, for me than most of my other pistols, and the excellent Kadet Kit allows cheap practice.
My favorite CZ right now is a NIB 1991, Pre-B I acquired over a year ago. It is a sweet shooter, looks great inside, and out, and has the classic round trigger guard, and spur hammer. The newer 97B with the updated barrel, and feed ramp plus the FO front site, and aluminum grip has quickly become my favorited .45ACP pistol. It is accurate, reliable, and the felt recoil is minimal. A 75D PCR 9MM is my primary carry.
There are tons of after market support to enhance CZ's. Some complain about the long trigger reach in DA, and long reset. I have larger hands so it doesn't bother me. All my CZ's are stock. But Cajun Gun Works has addressed both of these issues, and also has kits, and parts to lighten the trigger pull, and make it crisper, with a cleaner break. CZ Custom also has some great upgrades.
As others have stated Mec-Gar makes great magazines for CZ at a reasonable price. Many CZ OEM mags are made my Mec-Gar.
https://cajungunworks.com/
http://czcustom.com/
Thanks for the write-up. I guess I'm partial to Beretta over CZ as my first CZ gun was a piece of junk; but that was long before I realized how much I didn't know about handguns. My only bad experience with the 92 family of guns was having one of those shitty issued mags many a year ago. Checkmate I think? My personal 92 is a champ. If price and availability on the M9A3 ever intersects with my budget at that particular time, I'll probably own one.
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