View Full Version : Case Separation by Manufacturer
KenpoCop822
12-12-16, 09:19
I am currently getting ready to ramp up my production of .223 reloading for both training and SD. I am curious if it is worthwhile to separate cases by manufacturer. I get my casings from a local range, and generally get the following headstamps:
Win NT
WCC
Winchester
Lake City
R-P
If it makes any difference, I know that this is all once fired brass.
Is there any significant difference, such that I should prefer one over the others, or even bother separating out at all? If so, how would you rate the listed brass, from highest to lowest quality?
My shooting will be out of a AR-15 carbine, shooting probably no longer than 300 yards, and that would likely be stretching it for my general usage.
Thanks.
To me it's worthwhile to separate for accuracy reasons. Different manufacturers cases have slightly different capacities that affect pressure. How much this matters to you depends on how concerned you are with squeezing out accuracy and how close to max pressures you intend to load to.
Personally I like LC brass the best.
I don't shoot any where near as much as a bunch of guys here on M4. With that said, as a handloader, the only cases I've had popped primers with were FC. They weren't over pressure rounds, just loose pockets.
I would only sort them off for crimp removal. Other than that, the primer pockets are the only variance you should find. Hot XM193 brass might have a little looser pockets, depending on year/headstamp.
"WCC" generally gets loose primer pockets fairly quickly. "W.C.C." (if you get any) is Israeli made, and is a little better for whatever reason.
As stated, accuracy demands and peak pressures should dictate. If you're reloading mainly for close-in (under 100 yards) training and plan to keep pressures relatively mild, then it's likely a waste of time. Same thing for ringing torso sized steel out to 300. The keys to better accuracy are cases sorted by interior volume and neck tension/concentricity.
Remember that 5.56mm brass has less volume than actual .223 Rem brass. Also, Federal brass tends to be softer than the others, so you'll get fewer loads per piece out of them, especially if you're not annealing. Remember that even before pressure signs and fatigue, overall stretch/grow (how many times you trim) the case will determine when to discard them. If you pick up brass at a general use range where reloads are allowed, I would try to separate brass that appears to have been reloaded before and toss those. You have no idea how many times the previous user trimmed them. Lots of match shooters will use brass that's used up at actual matches, so they don't have to police their brass between relays/stages.
Remember that 5.56mm brass has less volume than actual .223 Rem brass.
Be careful stating this as absolute. I weighed case volume for several .223 commercial brands against Lake City and LC actually had more volume than most. In researching it, I found the general rule of military cases being less voluminous propagated from .308 shooters.
As stated, accuracy demands and peak pressures should dictate. If you're reloading mainly for close-in (under 100 yards) training and plan to keep pressures relatively mild, then it's likely a waste of time. Same thing for ringing torso sized steel out to 300. The keys to better accuracy are cases sorted by interior volume and neck tension/concentricity.
Remember that 5.56mm brass has less volume than actual .223 Rem brass. Also, Federal brass tends to be softer than the others, so you'll get fewer loads per piece out of them, especially if you're not annealing. Remember that even before pressure signs and fatigue, overall stretch/grow (how many times you trim) the case will determine when to discard them. If you pick up brass at a general use range where reloads are allowed, I would try to separate brass that appears to have been reloaded before and toss those. You have no idea how many times the previous user trimmed them. Lots of match shooters will use brass that's used up at actual matches, so they don't have to police their brass between relays/stages.
I respectfully disagree with all of this. :)
I mix all of our long range 5.56/.223 brass and load 77 gr SMKs... and dump them into 7.62 ammo cans. I've never had as sorted off/like headstamp group shoot any better than a random handful. Almost all common .223/5.56 mm brass internal volumes vary insignificantly. There's some chart from Accurateshooter that displays this. Mil brass doesn't vary from everything else enough to impact anything.
The reason FC brass quits sooner is not the brass hardness, but rather the thin case web. FC gives up primer pockets faster than most brass. In my experience primer pockets are what end brass life, not trimming repetition. I don't anneal any .223 brass due to the volume I run.
I used to toss out brass I picked up that appeared to be loaded more than once. Now I cull it at the resizing die if it feels like it's got excessive headspace (very, very rare), and more commonly, at the priming stage. If I seat a primer that feels too loose, I mark the brass and toss it into the recycle bucket after the following firing.
99.7% of the time, primer pockets are why I toss brass. 0.299% of the time I'll see a split neck. And the last 0.001% (if that much) of the time, I'll have a case separate. I think I've had like 4 or 5 separations over God knows how many hundreds of thousands of rounds.
Be careful stating this as absolute. I weighed case volume for several .223 commercial brands against Lake City and LC actually had more volume than most. In researching it, I found the general rule of military cases being less voluminous propagated from .308 shooters.
EXACTLY. .308 brass is ALL OVER the place. Unlike 5.56/.223 where it varies insignificantly.
EXACTLY. .308 brass is ALL OVER the place. Unlike 5.56/.223 where it varies insignificantly.
Yep here is the source from Sierra's page under the section "brass prep".
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly.
I stand corrected. Carry on!
I stand corrected. Carry on!
No worries man. It's a very common notion. I still think it's worth sorting even with that minute difference in volume for top accuracy. For everyday practice loads not so much.
KenpoCop822
12-12-16, 14:50
Well then, it seems I can stop punishing my children by having them sort brass and come up with more devious interventions to have them attain the proper behavioral attitude. I'm not trying to shoot nads off of gnats with this stuff. If I start going for that, I'd likely try to get some match brass. Without saying too much about where I get brass from, the majority of the .308 brass that I get is Hornady Match, so I'll likely develop around that.
I was also going to build a reloading cabinet system taking into account different headstamps, so that will make things a lot simplier.
Well then, it seems I can stop punishing my children by having them sort brass and come up with more devious interventions to have them attain the proper behavioral attitude. I'm not trying to shoot nads off of gnats with this stuff. If I start going for that, I'd likely try to get some match brass.
We have some Lapua .223 brass, but never use it as regular brass shoots just as good.
Without saying too much about where I get brass from, the majority of the .308 brass that I get is Hornady Match, so I'll likely develop around that.
My favorite .308 brass flavors are Lake City LR Mk 118, Lapua, and most recently MEN 7.62. Win/Hornady/Black Hills, etc have thin necks that just don't work well for me. If you go with Hornady, stick with it, because whatever you come up with might not be directly compatible with thicker necked brass. For example... if I run a Hornady case in my LEE collet neck die, the tension can be so low that bullets slip in the necks.
I don't sort .223, .30 carbine, .300blk, 38spl, 357mag, 45LC, 380 or 9mm brass. Cases just get tossed when primer pockets loosen up, the brass looks "bad" or I get splits. I don't anneal.
.308, .30-30 + .30-06 brass gets sorted by mfg. and then by # of times fired. After the third firing of each I check case with a paper clip for head seperation, if none, I load and shoot a 4th and check, if none I load an shoot a 5th time and check. 308 gets tossed after 5 no matter what. 30-30 gets used until the neck splits which is not long as they have thin brass at the neck. 30-06 commercial cases get tossed after 5 no matter what. Military 30-06 is weird........LC, and WW2 era brass that finds it's way into my pile often gets the "toss after 5" treatment, but smetimes goes much longer. but Greek HXP brass is really solid stout stuff, and I have had a dozen loads on some cases with no signs of head failure, and only tossed it due to neck splits.
45acp brass get sorted by primer pocket size
I don't hot rod any load for anything. I tend to load all my plinking ammo quite conservative going for reliable function and acceptable practical accuracy over top performance, and any ammo I load up to or at factory levels is usually on virgin, or once fired brass, and is ammo I store away in cans with dessicant, and I seal the neck's/primers for "future need", along with a lot of factory/store bought/mil surp ammo, and not regularly shoot with anyways.
Well then, it seems I can stop punishing my children by having them sort brass and come up with more devious interventions to have them attain the proper behavioral attitude...
Have them fill primer tubes... Or buy one of those hand-trimmers and set them to work.
Well then, it seems I can stop punishing my children by having them sort brass and come up with more devious interventions to have them attain the proper behavioral attitude.
I have 500 pieces of brass that I need to neck up to .308 and then turn the necks... ;)
Using Quickload there is 6,000 psi difference in chamber pressure between a case capacity of 28.0 and 30.6.
That being said the vast majority of cases are very close in capacity so just be careful with your mixed brass.
I buy my brass at http://brassbombers.com/223-556-Cleaned-Deprimed-Swaged-LC-Only-500-Pieces-2LC-S0050.htm
.223/5.56 - Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged - LC Only - 500 Pieces $59.00 free shipping. And the only thing mixed is the headstamp date. ;)
http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/tbonifie/223_case_capacity.png
And besides the flash hole web thickness .223/5.56 brass hardness varies, meaning Lake City 5.56 brass is the hardest. (made Ford Truck Tough) :)
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r64/friscopete/FCvsMilbrasssectioned.jpg
How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/
If it makes any difference, I know that this is all once fired brass.
How do you know this?
KenpoCop822
12-17-16, 00:30
Without giving away to much (to protect the guilty), the place where I get it from only uses commercially manufactured ammunition from wholesalers.
OK, just wondering if you were getting taken advantage of. I see fired range brass sold all the time at local ranges (and on eBay) as once fired. I'm sure that it is mostly once fired, but they have no way to know if it all is. I know that I leave my multiple times fired brass on the floor sometimes.
KenpoCop822
12-17-16, 10:15
I appreciate that.
Let the primer pocket tell you when to dump the brass. I left SO much brass on the ground in the old days because I couldn't/wouldn't trim. After getting the Giraud trimmer, no brass gets left behind.
KenpoCop822
12-17-16, 20:20
I can say that I haven't gotten to the point of reloading cases multiple times. I think the most I've done is reloaded cases twice.
I do have a Guiard. It's the first and only trimmer that I have. Love it.
With military brass, I assume that it's once fired if the primer crimp has not been removed.
Some military brass has been fired in SAW's and 7.62 machine guns with larger chambers. Do this matter? I've not encountered this myself.
SAW brass is apparently pretty nasty. I've never come across any of this stuff.
Some interesting evidence for case capacity making a difference in accuracy for 223.
https://youtu.be/QHSim_bAhs4
Some military brass has been fired in SAW's and 7.62 machine guns with larger chambers. Do this matter? I've not encountered this myself.
I have no firsthand experience with it, either, but it's famously bad over on the emm-fourteen forum: "Bad" meaning hugely oversized...
How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/
Now I want somebody to measure the hardness of every .223/5.56 case out there, or at least a couple dozen of the most common...
If we take up a collection and send and Ames gauge to Molon, do you think he would do it?
Now I want somebody to measure the hardness of every .223/5.56 case out there, or at least a couple dozen of the most common...
If we take up a collection and send and Ames gauge to Molon, do you think he would do it?
My buddy CatShooter did the testing at the link I posted, Lake City 5.56 and commercial contract 5.56 for the military have to meet the same hardness standards. This came about after the Congressional hearings on the M16 jamming problem and it was decided to make the 5.56 brass harder in the base with a thicker flash hole web for radial strength.(just one of the fixes)
http://i.imgur.com/nqhNKyV.jpg
I buy bulk processed Lake City and call it good enough, this way you are not dealing with mixed brass.
The reason I say this is I was given 3 five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 consisting of Lake City, Remington and Federal. And the Lake City in my opinion had the best overall quality and consistency. The Remington .223 brass had the widest range in neck thickness variations. And many of the Federal .223 cases had a thin flash hole web and over sized primer pockets with 2 reloadings or less. Some of the factory loaded Federal cases had oversized primer pockets after the first firing, but these were dated around 2005.
Below the hardness of the brass and the thickness of the flash hole web governs how many times the case can be reloaded before you have over sized primer pockets.
http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/223_web.jpg
Bottom line, I buy bulk Lake City brass from Brass Bombers and sort the brass for Blasting ammo or what I use in my .223 bolt action.
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/brasstest03.png
hotrodder636
01-14-17, 14:34
Tagged due to some good information in this thread. Thanks for putting this together to those who have given input.
Here's a reference base-line:
http://i.imgur.com/gIdQCq6.jpg
That's cool. It appears that the neck area is about half the hardness of the base of the case.
For my accuracy loads I sort by brand, resize and trim, then weigh and group by weight. My theory being the external dimensions are now the same so the weight difference would indicate different internal dimensions and, as a result, capacities. I then load like weights together.
For practice ammo I clean, trim, and resize all brands together and load and shoot. I usually load these a minimum of 10% below maximum but above the minimum in my load book.
By the way, I have some Hornady Match .308 cases. They are very consistent in weight.
My theory being the external dimensions are now the same so the weight difference would indicate different internal dimensions and, as a result, capacities. I then load like weights together.
I've not found this to impact velocity S.D.s at all.... at least in my loads. We even loaded the new 77 TMK exactly the same as the 77 SMK... (the TMK eats up a lot more case volume than the SMK), and the two load shot the same velocities.
Like I've said a bunch of times here, mixed .223 brass doesn't hurt my precision loads. However mixing .308 brass makes a huge difference in POI, velocity, accuracy, etc.
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