View Full Version : 20 vs. 30 round magazines?
Which one would you prefer for urban law enforcement 20 or 30 round magazines?
I prefer 20rd because they make the rifle more compact. They are less likely to interfer with seat belts, door jams, car doors, etc. I don't like giving up the extra capacity, but I feel that the advantages outweigh the ten round less capacity. I have several 20 and 30 round mags, and train with both. I am just curious as to what others prefer, and if they have any other comments or suggestions. Thanks for you time.
30's all the way. Give me more ammo any day.
Ridge_Runner_5
09-15-08, 15:36
Beta Mag ftw
Carry both - match the situation!
The OP's reasoning is sound for out of the squad car operations.
20s are also good for having a loaded rifle in a discrete case and good for prone shooting.
twodollarbill
09-15-08, 16:28
The OP's reasoning is sound for out of the squad car operations.
20s are also good for having a loaded rifle in a discrete case and good for prone shooting.
Agree 100%
20s served me well in Vietnam. If I was a LEO I'd probably use 20
rd Pmags
John Hearne
09-15-08, 19:24
I've found that a the 20's are easier to manuever in and out of cars. While there aren't a huge number of patrol rifle shootings, the ones that I've seen seem to be settled by one round. I used to keep a 20 in the gun and two spare 30's and never felt I was at a disadvantage.
The other advantages of 20 rounders include their ability to be carried on a normal duty belt and to mark special ammunition.
I actually prefer 20's also. They tuck into more nooks in my vehicle, just in case. They snag less. They work better from prone. They weigh less on multi-mile hikes from the vehicle.
I still like to have some 30's around, just in case I am forewarned about something unavoidable and undesirable.
HolyRoller
09-15-08, 20:52
30s usually, especially for prone shooting. Set them right on the ground for an instant monopod. No, the rifle won't jam, unless something was already wrong with the rifle.
Whoever disagrees with that statement, you and I will meet at the range. We will each bring 100 rounds of 556 and $100. I will shoot my 100 rounds with the mag on the ground. If I have one (1) malfunction, you keep my $100 and the rest of my ammo. If I have zero malfunctions, I keep your $100 and 100 rounds.
Takers?
If you keep a mag in a pouch on the side of your stock, a 20 may be easier to get out and load, especially with a Magpul. What I used to do when I was only issued 50 rounds was put 30 of them in an HK mag (before word got out about HK mags) and 18 in the 20 on the stock pouch. The last round was saved for myself of course, and the next-to-last round for whoever got me into a situation where I needed more than 48 rounds.
bullitt5172
09-16-08, 19:15
30s usually, especially for prone shooting. Set them right on the ground for an instant monopod. No, the rifle won't jam, unless something was already wrong with the rifle.
Whoever disagrees with that statement, you and I will meet at the range. We will each bring 100 rounds of 556 and $100. I will shoot my 100 rounds with the mag on the ground. If I have one (1) malfunction, you keep my $100 and the rest of my ammo. If I have zero malfunctions, I keep your $100 and 100 rounds.
Takers?
If you keep a mag in a pouch on the side of your stock, a 20 may be easier to get out and load, especially with a Magpul. What I used to do when I was only issued 50 rounds was put 30 of them in an HK mag (before word got out about HK mags) and 18 in the 20 on the stock pouch. The last round was saved for myself of course, and the next-to-last round for whoever got me into a situation where I needed more than 48 rounds.
WOW :rolleyes:
i personally think this is what someone gets used to [me 20 rds, as a high-power shooter] and i still prefer the 20's. i also have stocked on 30's[to go with the 30's i already had], i really cannot imagine a situation where i'm gonna get in a big shoot-out, as i am an old man that lives in the rural woods. IF i thought it was coming though, i would put a 30-rounder in there ,,,duhhhh! i put a smith m&w mp 15a under the rear seat of my z-71 with a 20 shot pmag, with a 30 shot pmag for back-up. [to back up my glock]. iknow, use a pistol to fight your way to a rifle,,,that is the plan,,,what was said about the best laid plans of mice and men????who said that and what did they mean????
Hey HolyRoller, forget to take your meds today?
I have a large amount of 20’s and 30s’ I use the 20’s the most , because when I go to the range I always return home whith empty mags and a smile,, ( saves on ammo):)
ThirdWatcher
09-17-08, 00:21
I prefer both, for the reasons given. You carry spare mags, don't you? Start with a 20 and reload with a 30. I don't see this issue as very different from carrying a 1911... I just gotta reload more often than the guys with the high capacity magazine pistols.:)
Whoever disagrees with that statement, you and I will meet at the range. We will each bring 100 rounds of 556 and $100. I will shoot my 100 rounds with the mag on the ground. If I have one (1) malfunction, you keep my $100 and the rest of my ammo. If I have zero malfunctions, I keep your $100 and 100 rounds.
Takers?
How do we know you're not going to cheat and spray the ground with PAM?
Which one would you prefer for urban law enforcement 20 or 30 round magazines?
I prefer 20rd because they make the rifle more compact. They are less likely to interfer with seat belts, door jams, car doors, etc. I don't like giving up the extra capacity, but I feel that the advantages outweigh the ten round less capacity. I have several 20 and 30 round mags, and train with both. I am just curious as to what others prefer, and if they have any other comments or suggestions. Thanks for you time.
I use 20's for work also... I can not think of a realistic LE encounter where you would need a 30...
B
HolyRoller
09-17-08, 09:32
Hey HolyRoller, forget to take your meds today?
You betcha. I don't like the side effects.
HolyRoller
09-17-08, 09:34
How do we know you're not going to cheat and spray the ground with PAM?
:mad: hush!
WOW :rolleyes:
What is wrong with his statement?
I use 20's for work also... I can not think of a realistic LE encounter where you would need a 30...
B
As usual I find myself in agreement with Buck's comments................
I wrote the following a few months ago in reference to 20 round mags:
**************************************************************
I had heard some chatter on other boards about the usefulness of the Magpul's new PMAG 20's.
I shoot a local run and gun rifle match. It just so happens that two of match directors are a Police Captain and a Police Sergeant that work for the same agency as me.
In a recent match, Capt. Xxxxxx built a barrier that was the same height as the Ford Crown Victoria's that we use at work.
On this stage you had to shoot under the barrier (same height as a Ford Crown Vic's bumper). As you can see in the pic below I was using a USGI 30 round magazine.
Due to the lenght of the 30 round magazine, I was forced to cant my carbine in order to see the target.
A PMAG 20 would have been very useful in this situation:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2008.05/smaller/D462_6381_img.jpg
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2008.05/smaller/D462_6384_img.jpg
Consider that the earth is not flat and conditions are not always perfect.
There may be times where you can see and engage the target from a standard prone position, but if you were to go into a lower position like a roll over prone, you may not be able to see or engage the target due to a curb, small hill, etc.
I have had situations come up at this match where I was shooting from the prone, using the magazine as a monopod, I could see the target through my optic, but my rounds were impacting a small dirt berm 20' - 30" in front of me. Just by getting into a slightly higher prone position (getting the magazine just a couple inches off the deck) I was able to engage the target.
**************************************************************
20 rounders have been popular in law enforcement circles for years.
Some agencies require 20 round magazines per policy.
On my agency per policy, it's required that an Officer carry his Patrol Carbine / SWAT carbine in "Condition 3" (on an empty chamber press the trigger, after the trigger has released leave the fire selector on safe, and insert a fully loaded magazine), this is also known as "Cruizer ready". Same condition most agencies carry their shotguns in. The Department doesn't equip our Patrol units with carbine racks, because all carbines are personally owned. Thus per policy the rifle / carbine has to be carried in a case (soft or hard case in the trunk)
Because we have to carry in our carbines in "Condition 3" (and due to the fact that many Officers have optics on their carbines), many guys find that their carbines won't fit in their rifle cases with a 30 round magazine inserted in the rifle, but the rifle / carbine will fit in the case with a 20 round mag. Part of our qualification course calls for the rifle / carbine to be in the case, in Condition 3, and the Officer has to retreive his rifle from his case, make ready and engage targets.
For some applications 20 rounders actually offer an advantage over 30 rounds.
Consider that a *majority* of law enforcement officers that carry an AR15, carry an AR15 with a *carbine length gas system*. Thus the AR15 has a carbine length handguard or carbine length rail system attached to it.
It's not uncommon for a Patrol Officer to deploy his rifle / carbine and end up on a perimeter for several hours.
When sitting on a perimeter for several hours, most of the time you will try to find cover and use that cover to rest your AR on while still aimed in the direction of the threat. Sometimes that cover is a wall, a vehicle, the SWAT APC, etc.
With the shorter carbine handguard (ie. Colt M4 handguards / LaRue 7.0) and a curved 30 round magazine, this limits the pieces of cover an Officer can rest his gun on. Unless he wants to rest the barrel on the cover.
Here is a pic that can illistrate the situtuation better than I can explain it. In the pic below, the only reason the handguard of the rifle is on the barricade is because it's a mid-length barrel with a LaRue 9.0 rail.
If I were running a carbine with a 7.0, my barrel would be on the barricade due to the curved 30 round magazine. With a 20 round magazine, I would be able to rest the forearm of a carbine on this barricade:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/small/D461_9051_img.jpg
While I have never had to use a turned over 55 gallon drum in the field to rest my rifle on, this is just an example of how a 20 rounder has some utility for some of us.
Just food for thought
Take care and be safe,
S/F,
Jeff
Robb Jensen
09-17-08, 21:53
I use 20's for work also... I can not think of a realistic LE encounter where you would need a 30...
B
I don't know, I think it was 12yrs a go or so ago a Bank of America was robbed and involve LAPD and one of the biggest shootouts ever caught on video tape, all the rounds that you could get a hold of would have been good IMHO, but I wasn't there so I'm just guessin' :eek:
Locally a few years ago a certified crazy MF'er broke out of a crazy house went and shot up a local to me Police station and killed two officers (one of which I had met before). MORE than 20 rounds of .223 were used to shoot and kill the perp. Was it necessary? I don't know, and I'm not to judge. Did it work? Yes....and that's damn good and all I need to know in my book and that needs to be said.
USMC03,
This is off topic, but IMHO you're way too far forward through and over your cover.
I was taught to stay behind cover and scan through it/over it, not to poke my gun through/over.
YMMV,
Ben
Robb Jensen
09-17-08, 22:02
USMC03,
This is off topic, but IMHO you're way too far forward through and over your cover.
I was taught to stay behind cover and scan through it/over it, not to poke my gun through/over.
YMMV,
Ben
It's a MATCH not TRAINING. I've said it here many times the two are quite different......
I don't know, I think it was 12yrs a go or so ago a Bank of America was robbed and involve LAPD and one of the biggest shootouts ever caught on video tape, all the rounds that you could get a hold of would have been good IMHO, but I wasn't there so I'm just guessin' :eek:
That is the perfect example... 99% of the rounds fired at the North Hollywood shootout were 115 grain 9mms from Beretta 92s and 00 buckshot from Ithaca 37s... They were fired at two suspects wearing IIIA armor standing upright in the center of a parking lot at distances for 35 to 150 yards...
Our patrol rifle program was a direct result of this incident... A single competent rifle operator at the scene would of ended it very quickly... How many shots would it take you to hit two people standing 75 yards away in the center of a parking lot??? Ill bet its less than 20...
B
It's a MATCH not TRAINING. I've said it here many times the two are quite different......
Uh-huh. Based on his post, USMC03 is clearly thinking that this "match" is preparation for possible combat situations...
And match or no match, there's no point to sticking his gun through the window. He can't rest the gun on anything there (unlike the photo with the drum). All that does is take him more time/effort to stick the gun through the hole and then pull it back out when he wants to move, and it makes him more exposed to whatever is outside.
I still don't get it...
Ben
bullitt5172
09-17-08, 22:30
What is wrong with his statement?
It wasn't a statement, it was a school yard challenge. He is right, just funny he felt he had to challenge anyone who dare disagree. Relax Nancy....;)
Uh-huh. Based on his post, USMC03 is clearly thinking that this "match" is preparation for possible combat situations...
And match or no match, there's no point to sticking his gun through the window. He can't rest the gun on anything there (unlike the photo with the drum). All that does is take him more time/effort to stick the gun through the hole and then pull it back out when he wants to move, and it makes him more exposed to whatever is outside.
I still don't get it...
Ben
gotM4 made a good point as uaual.
The gun is not sticking through the "window", the barricade was set up to simulate having to shoot under the Crown Vic (ie. the barricade resembles the distance from the bumper of the Crown Vic to the ground....and the barricade is in a position to represent shooting under a Crown Vic)
If the barricade was a Crown Vic, as Capt. Xxxxxx intended it to be....if I were on the passenger side of the the vehicle, my muzzle wouldn't have been visable from the drivers side of the vehicle.
And due to the angles involved in shooting under a vehicle, a 20 round magazine would have had a lot more utility than the 30 round magazine that I was using.
S/F,
Jeff
The gun is not sticking through the "window", the barricade was set up to simulate having to shoot under the Crown Vic (ie. the barricade resembles the distance from the bumper of the Crown Vic to the ground....and the barricade is in a position to represent shooting under a Crown Vic)
If the barricade was a Crown Vic, as Capt. Xxxxxx intended it to be....if I were on the passenger side of the the vehicle, my muzzle wouldn't have been visable from the drivers side of the vehicle.
The point about 20 vs. 30 round mags is well taken.
I still think you're too close to your cover. If you're going to shoot under a car, the you shouldn't actually stick the gun under the car.
No matter whether you're visible or not, the point is that you'd would have had to move forward to get your gun under there, and you'd have to move back before you could stand up and move again.
That's just my ill-informed 2¢,
Ben
The point about 20 vs. 30 round mags is well taken.
I still think you're too close to your cover. If you're going to shoot under a car, the you shouldn't actually stick the gun under the car.
No matter whether you're visible or not, the point is that you'd would have had to move forward to get your gun under there, and you'd have to move back before you could stand up and move again.
That's just my ill-informed 2¢,
Ben
In your reference to being too close to cover, how many targets and the distance of those targets has a lot to do as to where you postion yourself to your cover.
On this stage there were 8 targets. The range left to right was approximately 125 yards. The targets were at staggered at distances from approximatley 275 yards to 425 yards.
If I were to back up and get away from the cover I wouldn't be able to see approximately 30 - 40% of the targets (if I moved back 12" away from the cover). So what is more important, being able to see an engage the targets or keeping a certain distance away from your target? Considering the distance, I'll crowd the cover in this instance in order to both see and engage the target.
You also mentioned the barrel and how I was resting on the barrel. Again multiple targets at 275 - 425 yards. Which is more important, rest the gun on a solid object and get hits on target as proficiently as possible or do what is "tactically correct" and hide behind cover and not be able to engage the targets proficiently?
Distance = Time
I always love the guys who get on the internet and critique other people's tactics / techniques without taking all factors into consideration.
I'm a fairly low speed guy. I've been a cop with a medium sized city for 12 years, been an active member of SWAT for 10.5 years, and outside of the training I do at work I host 2 to 4 tactical training classes a year (I've been hosting 2 to 4 training classes since 2000), I shoot as much run and gun / 3 gun / steel challenge matches as I can (at least monthly, depending on the season, sometimes weekly). And after all that I am a mediocre shooter on my best days.
Feel free to let me know how I can be a more tactical sound and more proficient shooter.
What is your background? How many classes do you take a year? With who? What operational experience do you have? How many and what kind of matches do you shoot annually and how well do you do in them (score)?
I'm not being a smart ass, I'm looking to learn something new, and looking for an oppertunity to become a better and more proficient shooter.
S/F,
Jeff
It's not uncommon for a Patrol Officer to deploy his rifle / carbine and end up on a perimeter for several hours.
When sitting on a perimeter for several hours, most of the time you will try to find cover and use that cover to rest your AR on while still aimed in the direction of the threat. Sometimes that cover is a wall, a vehicle, the SWAT APC, etc.
With the shorter carbine handguard (ie. Colt M4 handguards / LaRue 7.0) and a curved 30 round magazine, this limits the pieces of cover an Officer can rest his gun on. Unless he wants to rest the barrel on the cover.
Here is a pic that can illistrate the situtuation better than I can explain it. In the pic below, the only reason the handguard of the rifle is on the barricade is because it's a mid-length barrel with a LaRue 9.0 rail.
If I were running a carbine with a 7.0, my barrel would be on the barricade due to the curved 30 round magazine. With a 20 round magazine, I would be able to rest the forearm of a carbine on this barricade:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/small/D461_9051_img.jpg
While I have never had to use a turned over 55 gallon drum in the field to rest my rifle on, this is just an example of how a 20 rounder has some utility for some of us.
Just food for thought
Take care and be safe,
S/F,
Jeff
Building of this point, a 20 round magazine allows the front passenger in a pickup to rest their rifle on the side mirror and the magazine will not interfere with the vehicle door.
Don't mind me. I'm just another armchair general. I've done a couple courses and read up on this, but you seem to spend way more time thinking about all this than I do.
It just seemed to me that you were way too close to your cover, based on what I've been taught.
It hadn't occurred to me that in the photo you're engaging targets coming from 8 different directions, or that you're engaging them at extreme long-range... I'd always figured that cops would probably be training to engage relatively few targets at relatively short range.
Ben
Robb Jensen
09-18-08, 06:04
That is the perfect example... 99% of the rounds fired at the North Hollywood shootout were 115 grain 9mms from Beretta 92s and 00 buckshot from Ithaca 37s... They were fired at two suspects wearing IIIA armor standing upright in the center of a parking lot at distances for 35 to 150 yards...
Our patrol rifle program was a direct result of this incident... A single competent rifle operator at the scene would of ended it very quickly... How many shots would it take you to hit two people standing 75 yards away in the center of a parking lot??? Ill bet its less than 20...
B
Two rounds, but I'm not an average shooter. If returning fire from cover it might be more, but I'd venture to say that my carbine/rifle 'hit factor' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUBMJT9cGPI) ;) exceeds at least 98% of the law enforcement in my area. :p
Building of this point, a 20 round magazine allows the front passenger in a pickup to rest their rifle on the side mirror and the magazine will not interfere with the vehicle door.
Due to my employment, the first thing that pops into my mind when you describe that is probably NOT the way you intended it. Although I'm certain most of my local drugged/liquored rednecks would benefit from your advice.
waterhouse
09-18-08, 11:00
A lot of the SWAT type guys around us used 20 rounders for the same reasons the OP stated, namely getting out of cars quickly and easily. We did a red gun drill (the red guns had 30 rounders) and I slammed the mag into the steering wheel while exiting the vehicle. This is probably easily avoided with practice, but it was a little bit of an eye opener at least. I'm no longer in law enforcement, but if I was I'd probably use 20 rounders in the car with 30 rounders as back ups.
On my agency per policy, it's required that an Officer carry his Patrol Carbine / SWAT carbine in "Condition 3" (on an empty chamber press the trigger, after the trigger has released leave the fire selector on safe, and insert a fully loaded magazine)
Just for clarity, I think you meant "leave the fire selector on fire."
I use 20's for work also... I can not think of a realistic LE encounter where you would need a 30...
B
I'd hate to be the guy that found himself in a sit that required 30's and not have any. Don't we prepare for the worst and pray we never need it? I carry a chest rig with 6 30 round Pmags and 4 pistol mags. My dept. has no limit on the amount of ammo we can carry. Will I ever need all that ammo? Probably not, but you never know.
That is the perfect example... 99% of the rounds fired at the North Hollywood shootout were 115 grain 9mms from Beretta 92s and 00 buckshot from Ithaca 37s... They were fired at two suspects wearing IIIA armor standing upright in the center of a parking lot at distances for 35 to 150 yards...
Our patrol rifle program was a direct result of this incident... A single competent rifle operator at the scene would of ended it very quickly... How many shots would it take you to hit two people standing 75 yards away in the center of a parking lot??? Ill bet its less than 20...
B
End it quickly? Maybe, maybe not. These days you never know what kind of narcotic cocktail people are on and if so they can sustain lethal hits and keep fighting. I wouldn't be so confident as to say thay I could end something like that in just a short time. Especially when it's a two way range with moving targets. Just my humble opinion though. God forbid anyone has to face a similar situation but I will bet it's in someones future. I carry all I can as long as it doesn't limit my mobility.
End it quickly? Maybe, maybe not. These days you never know what kind of narcotic cocktail people are on and if so they can sustain lethal hits and keep fighting.
There is no "narcotic cocktail" or super sauce that will allow you to sustain being shot in the head and torso by 5.56...
I wouldn't be so confident as to say thay I could end something like that in just a short time.
I would... This is not magic, or rocket science... Aimed fire from a 5.56 carbine will put a person down.. period... not even a discussion... It is not like flipping a switch, but you will go down...
B
There is no "narcotic cocktail" or super sauce that will allow you to sustain being shot in the head and torso by 5.56...
I would... This is not magic, or rocket science... Aimed fire from a 5.56 carbine will put a person down.. period... not even a discussion... It is not like flipping a switch, but you will go down...
B
You're correct. A head shot will put anyone down no matter what they have in their system. I disagree on the torsoe though. My main point is that if you have someone putting sustained fire on your position that head shot may not be so simple. Of course this also depends on your cover/concealment.
There is no "narcotic cocktail" or super sauce that will allow you to sustain being shot in the head and torso by 5.56...
I would... This is not magic, or rocket science... Aimed fire from a 5.56 carbine will put a person down.. period... not even a discussion... It is not like flipping a switch, but you will go down...
Buck
There are always an exception or two to "the rule" ..... the Officer Involved Shootings we have had at my agency with the 5.56 mirror your experience (all have been torso shots).
There are a lot of Law Enforcement AAR's out there pertaining to Officer Involved Shootings with the 5.56. And a majority of the AAR's that I've seen over the years mirror Buck's statements above.
S/F,
Jeff
AnimalMother556
09-18-08, 19:14
Wow, lots of discussion over 20 vs. 30 round mags. I thought the 20's just looked cooler and they fit nicely in my back pocket at the range. Noonch.
IrishDevil
09-18-08, 21:06
I'm a fan of 20's, I use them in the AR I keep loaded at all times in my safe. Simple reason is they don't take up as much room. I use a BFG Redi-Mag, with 2 PMag 20's, for a total of 36 rounds.
USMC03,
This is off topic, but IMHO you're way too far forward through and over your cover.
I was taught to stay behind cover and scan through it/over it, not to poke my gun through/over.
YMMV,
Ben
It's a game, it's different than the street.
Having seen the elephant with a carbine on duty, I can attest the rifle will put them down with the fewest rounds comparably.
I still have both type of mags in the car. I have 2-30's and 1-20. And find myself putting the 30 in, and packing the other 2.
It's easy to say what the woulda-coulda-shoulda's are in a fire fight as we sit here safely behind our keyboards. I wouldn't say that anything can be ended quickly. People act differently and shots go to hell real quick, when's there's incoming.
I would like to know from those who have seen the elephant, and know where it poops (in the LE world), do you feel more comfortable with a 20 or a 30?
And did you feel the same way before?
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