View Full Version : Savage joining AR game
Well done it appears Savage is joining the AR game. Looks like M-Lok and side charging.
https://m.facebook.com/SavageArms/?__nodl&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr
Why, oh why do these companies insist on adding to a very crowded and well-represented field? I know the answer is $, but in the big scheme of things it seems they will have to sell a metric crap-ton to make a dent in the industry.
Doc Safari
12-15-16, 14:55
Savage makes decent bolt-action rifles that tend to be as accurate as guns costing more than twice as much--or at least that was the case the last time I owned one. It shot at least as well as a Remington 700 and I didn't have to do a thing to it.
Maybe....if Savage could...nah, dreaming....make the best .308 AR10....nah....
Acuutrigger on an AR? Hmm...
BoringGuy45
12-15-16, 15:20
Why, oh why do these companies insist on adding to a very crowded and well-represented field? I know the answer is $, but in the big scheme of things it seems they will have to sell a metric crap-ton to make a dent in the industry.
That's what I told my former boss. His pipe dream was to become a billionaire by starting his own AR line. So, to make a long story short, he started his own AR line (basically just billet uppers and lowers that he had our gunsmith build into rifles), told a bunch of lies about the quality and testing that went into it, and nearly bankrupted himself...and blamed everybody but himself for it (I left before the shit hit the fan). I told him at least 100 times that it was a bad idea, almost as bad as his next idea: Yet another custom 1911 line!
Savage will likely make an AR that has the quality of an M&P15 or a Windham: Fine for the range, probably will work in most instances, but still one of those things worth passing on, saving up an extra hundred or so and getting a Colt or BCM instead. Savage does make some decent bolt guns though.
The side charging is interesting though. Not new, but it's always interesting to see something a bit different than most others.
Looks like a .308 to me. The dust cover is larger than a .223, anyway.
But it does look kinda neat. The handguard looks like it bolts up to the receiver itself, similar to the DDV5, and while I don't like side-charging AR's, who knows, maybe it'll fill whatever niche its meant to fill quite well. Savage doesn't have the best reputation for hard-use bolt guns, but here's to hoping it's a viable .308... the last thing we need is more junk.
Screen caps;
http://i65.tinypic.com/xp7uxz.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/2dj0w1e.jpg
Defiantly looks interesting. Looks to have some unique features to the hand guard attachment and the lower receiver looks far from milspec. I'm hoping for some interesting calibers to be available and possibly some stand alone parts.
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F-Trooper05
12-15-16, 17:21
I don't mind Savage bolt guns at all. Way less problems than Remington.
PS.
Why are so many Americans on M4C anti-competition in the market-place?
I don't mind Savage bolt guns at all. Way less problems than Remington.
Savage has accurate barrels. They'll shoot. But the action issues with them has been covered. I had a guy at the range tell me that the Remmies with the digi code on the receiver under the bolt have had their actions completed entirely on one machine... whereas the older models, which earned them some bad reputations, where moved from jig to jig/station to station.. and had really bad issues.
PS.
Why are so many Americans on M4C anti-competition in the market-place?
Because there are already TOO many companies cutting corners and flooding the market with mediocre crap. I, and I'd guess many here, have trouble believing that Savage is going to build guns to spec.
Doc Safari
12-15-16, 17:37
Because there are already TOO many companies cutting corners and flooding the market with mediocre crap. I, and I'd guess many here, have trouble believing that Savage is going to build guns to spec.
This, in a nutshell. Although if one could be convinced of their build quality and maybe willingness to fill a niche, then I might give them a tentative pass.
They could find a niche making precision rifles with non standard components.
I'm not a fan of the side charger, but looks like it has potential.
The rail and upper/rail attachment looks very nice.
Doubt I'll ever buy one but I'm excited to see what it ends up being. I don't think it's going to be entry level like an M & P sport.
I think it would be foolish of them to even attempt a "spec" AR, as there's already plenty of good AND bad examples of those around.
Anyone buying a Savage AR will be wanting value, accuracy and hunting, or some mix of the three. If they build one at a good price point that's accurate and we'll suited to hunting (particularly in caliber choices), it will sell.
Why, oh why do these companies insist on adding to a very crowded and well-represented field? I know the answer is $, but in the big scheme of things it seems they will have to sell a metric crap-ton to make a dent in the industry.
I think it is imperative to remember that this - There are currently 4287 users online. 710 members and 3577 guests. Most users ever online was 13,853, 05-18-16 at 22:23 - is a very small slice of the gun purchasing public.
And good, because without the 'Yeah, I have an AR' crowd there would not be as many offerings.
I don't mind Savage bolt guns at all. Way less problems than Remington.
PS.
Why are so many Americans on M4C anti-competition in the market-place?
Agreed, the more manufacturers the merrier I say
A reasonably priced ar-10 class rifle would be interesting.
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Or it could be another slight variance that lots of people buy, few shoot, and those that do bring them to guys like me to repair, like Ruger...........not excited but maybe they'll do it right or at least it will run. Savage makes some decent huting rifles but you rarely see them at long range schools or shoots unles they shooter is his own gunsmith as well. They just do't hold up for long run with hard use and many rounds.
ranger56528
12-15-16, 22:03
I own several Savage bolts for a reason and adding a Savage AR to the collection sounds like a plan if it's worth its weight.
I would like to see it also gave a fal style adj gas but still ne di.
That folding charge handle reminds me of a british fal
We shall see
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BoringGuy45
12-16-16, 01:25
I don't mind Savage bolt guns at all. Way less problems than Remington.
PS.
Why are so many Americans on M4C anti-competition in the market-place?
We have absolutely no problem with more quality ARs. If we were against competition in the AR market, we would only recommend Colt. BCM, Daniel Defense, etc, would be rejected for no other reason than not being Colt. The issue is that there are so many junk, and "hobby" grade ARs on the market. We have DPMS, Smith & Wesson, Stag, Windham, Bushmaster, Diamondback, Doublestar, Rock River, Remington, Del-Ton, Ruger, Olympic, Armalite, Sig Sauer...and that's just what I can remember without so much as a Google search! Oh yeah, and Springfield just got into the AR game as well. Whether they make a quality AR or a hobby AR remains to be seen.
If Savage makes an AR that is of similar quality to Colt, BCM, FN, LMT, etc, it'll help the market. If their side-charging system helps reinvent and improve the AR system, even better. If it takes its place among the ARs that are just for fun and not much else, than it's a waste.
My 18 y/o $380 Savage 110 7mm Rem Mag is a half MOA gun. I have yet to feel the need to buy another hunting rifle. I welcome another AR to the market and hopefully they can bring something made from quality parts, is reliable, and has the accuracy they are known for.
I know at least a dozen guys that want an AR308 but will not pay the going rate for current "mil-spec" offerings. At the same time, they wont buy the bottom of the barrel (DPMS/BM). I'm looking forward to seeing if Savage can fill the market gap.
wetidlerjr
12-16-16, 02:38
I don't care how many manufacturers join the AR market, They will "sink or swim" on their merits. That is, in a basic sense, a free market.
I buy BCM which was a decision based on the free market principle. I'm, also, not fond of the use of the imperial "We". YMMV
Good luck to Savage in their new endeavor.
F-Trooper05
12-16-16, 03:49
The issue is that there are so many junk, and "hobby" grade ARs on the market. We have DPMS, Smith & Wesson, Stag, Windham, Bushmaster, Diamondback, Doublestar, Rock River, Remington, Del-Ton, Ruger, Olympic, Armalite, Sig Sauer...and that's just what I can remember without so much as a Google search! Oh yeah, and Springfield just got into the AR game as well. Whether they make a quality AR or a hobby AR remains to be seen.
So why do you give a shit? All of my rifles say BCM on them, and I've yet to personally be effected by a single thing that other manufacturers do.
Mr. Goodtimes
12-16-16, 04:58
Starting to make AR-15's is looking like it's turning into the new starting a lawn business in Florida. Everyone's doing it and nobody gives a damn. It's going to take a few years but at the end of the day nobody gives a damn and most of these companies will fold and the bigger companies like Savage will discontinue their guns.
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I think it is imperative to remember that this - There are currently 4287 users online. 710 members and 3577 guests. Most users ever online was 13,853, 05-18-16 at 22:23 - is a very small slice of the gun purchasing public.
And good, because without the 'Yeah, I have an AR' crowd there would not be as many offerings.
Bingo
I think it is imperative to remember that this - There are currently 4287 users online. 710 members and 3577 guests. Most users ever online was 13,853, 05-18-16 at 22:23 - is a very small slice of the gun purchasing public.
And good, because without the 'Yeah, I have an AR' crowd there would not be as many offerings.
No doubt. I can see all sides in the argument. AR loyalists are a tough nut to crack; they will do well on their own merits, or not.
FlyingChipmunk
12-16-16, 08:48
I know at least a dozen guys that want an AR308 but will not pay the going rate for current "mil-spec" offerings. At the same time, they wont buy the bottom of the barrel (DPMS/BM). I'm looking forward to seeing if Savage can fill the market gap.
Same here and based on the video, it seems like they are going for the market gap/niche. (own unique upper receiver and especially the handguard attachment method)
I was initially thinking just another AR, but not after watching the video and pretty confident that it's an at least decent 308 AR.
Gotta admit I'm actually looking forward to the release.
I'm interested for the side charger.
Could have potential.
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Same here and based on the video, it seems like they are going for the market gap/niche. (own unique upper receiver and especially the handguard attachment method)
I was initially thinking just another AR, but not after watching the video and pretty confident that it's an at least decent 308 AR.
Gotta admit I'm actually looking forward to the release.
That's where I'm at. I'd like to have a semi 6.5CM but can't stomach the cost of an SR25 or similar just to rebarrel on top and I'm not buying DPMS junk.
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Mrgunsngear
12-16-16, 10:36
Embed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOMl4h9Wxk0
So.... I know all the details but am sworn to secrecy. But, what I can tell you is they have some very interesting offerings beyond a "AR-15 with a MLOK hand guard" coming. Details will be released a week or two before SHOT.
Embed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOMl4h9Wxk0
So.... I know all the details but am sworn to secrecy. But, what I can tell you is they have some very interesting offerings beyond a "AR-15 with a MLOK hand guard" coming. Details will be released a week or two before SHOT.
Of course, something good-quality, innovative, and budget-conscious would be a welcome addition as it doesn't land in the "same-as-every-AR-but-slightly-different" bucket.
MOLON AABE
12-16-16, 12:48
Embed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOMl4h9Wxk0
So.... I know all the details but am sworn to secrecy. But, what I can tell you is they have some very interesting offerings beyond a "AR-15 with a MLOK hand guard" coming. Details will be released a week or two before SHOT.
Can you confirm if its a 15 or a 10 based platform?
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I wished someone would licence the ACR controls and build a lower that fits standard uppers.
That would be nice. Won't ever happen though......
Hell, I'd like a proper ACR! Is that too much to ask for?
Mrgunsngear
12-16-16, 16:43
Can you confirm if its a 15 or a 10 based platform?
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
NDA says nope.
BoringGuy45
12-16-16, 23:51
So why do you give a shit? All of my rifles say BCM on them, and I've yet to personally be effected by a single thing that other manufacturers do.
It's not that a currently give a shit about what Savage does, it's that I WANT to give a shit.
Two things I always want to see when new products hit the firearms market: A new innovation that will actually move firearm technology forward, or at least another quality option to the current technology. If this is going to be yet another sub-par rifle, or one with a gimmicky solution in search of a problem, a solution to an actual problem that fails in execution, or a rifle only for a niche market, that's Savage's problem, not mine. If that's what this rifle is, I don't see what they were hoping to accomplish by getting into the AR game.
All in all though, I don't have too much bad to say about Savage. They make good rifles, especially for the money. Even their Axis line is probably among the best you can get in that price range. I'd take an Axis all day, every day, and twice on Sunday over a Remington 770. I'm just hoping they came up with something cool for this AR.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/4f387a7719fd8ed3d197fc60f2323e77.png
DD style lock up from the rail to the upper. I'll say easy money on a 308 rifle or similar caliber, but definitely not 5.56 or .223
They wouldn't have much market share or profit on a AR15 but a AR10 could bring the money and disrupt the market.
I would bet on a 6 point something over a run of the mill 308, which I think would be a boon to the community. That dust cover could accommodate a lot of rounds. Not that 308 is a bad choice, but Savage has a history of pushing the envelope with caliber.
Dist. Expert 26
12-25-16, 19:46
If they make this in 6.5 CM or .260 and it can shoot reasonably well I'll be a customer. PRS has a gas gun series next year I'd love to get in on.
Bet on 6.5 before 260. Doubt savage would chamber in a relatively hard to find remington cartridge.
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If they make this in 6.5 CM or .260 and it can shoot reasonably well I'll be a customer. PRS has a gas gun series next year I'd love to get in on.
License to print money...in the context of that niche. Could be sweet.
Dist. Expert 26
12-26-16, 00:32
Bet on 6.5 before 260. Doubt savage would chamber in a relatively hard to find remington cartridge.
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That's what I would assume too, but I'm just throwing it out there. Either way would be a solid choice for a precision rifle over .308.
BuzzinSATX
12-26-16, 08:37
I don't care how many manufacturers join the AR market, They will "sink or swim" on their merits. That is, in a basic sense, a free market.
I buy BCM which was a decision based on the free market principle. I'm, also, not fond of the use of the imperial "We". YMMV
Good luck to Savage in their new endeavor.
I agree with this post. I'm totally a free market believer, and regardless if I buy or not, companies that produce a commodity people want to buy are contributing to the overall economy. HiPoint Arms is a great example of this. Most here will scoff and dismiss the idea that the company has any redeeming value, but the reality is there are thousands of Americans who own and shoot these firearms and are satisfied with them. And MANY highpoint have been successfully deployed in both offensive (including criminal) and defensive real life scenarios.
I am not telling anyone here to buy or not buy whatever...free country and all. Just saying the gear considered to be "lower grade junk" by many on this board works to a degree that many Americans enjoy using and will continue to buy.
IF this is real, Savage blew it BIG.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Savage_Arms_MSR_15_Patrol_223_5_56_16_22900_p/gun-22900.htm
You put a 5R rifled, .223 Wylde chambered, 1:8" barrel on it and then use cheesy non free float Blackhawk furniture with a Delta ring, goofy sights and mil-spec trigger? Sorry, "BLACKHAWK!" furniture.
I don't even know how to fully express my disappointment. :(
Eurodriver
12-28-16, 12:53
IF this is real, Savage blew it BIG.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Savage_Arms_MSR_15_Patrol_223_5_56_16_22900_p/gun-22900.htm
You put a 5R rifled, .223 Wylde chambered, 1:8" barrel on it and then use cheesy non free float Blackhawk furniture with a Delta ring, goofy sights and mil-spec trigger? Sorry, "BLACKHAWK!" furniture.
I don't even know how to fully express my disappointment. :(
Unsure what that is but the Savage MSR will have an mlok FF rail and hasn't been released to the public yet.
Not that I care either way...
Unsure what that is but the Savage MSR will have an mlok FF rail and hasn't been released to the public yet.
Not that I care either way...
Hence the "IF this is real" qualifier. Is it possible they released info to direct dealers/wholesalers for marketing purposes?
BuzzinSATX
12-28-16, 13:41
IF this is real, Savage blew it BIG.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Savage_Arms_MSR_15_Patrol_223_5_56_16_22900_p/gun-22900.htm
You put a 5R rifled, .223 Wylde chambered, 1:8" barrel on it and then use cheesy non free float Blackhawk furniture with a Delta ring, goofy sights and mil-spec trigger? Sorry, "BLACKHAWK!" furniture.
I don't even know how to fully express my disappointment. :(
Not sure you were expecting for $700?
This rifle is likely expected to fill the needs of the buyer who wants a "name brand AR". I suspect many will be the shooters who already own a Savage bolt rifle and are happy with it. I'd bet the Savage market analysis told them these customers shoot less than 500 rounds per year, maybe much less. With minimal PM, this rifle will probably last 10K rounds, or 20+ years at the given usage level above.
I have a coworker who bought a new Bushmaster at Cabelas for $1000 or so during the height of the scare (2013). He bought it because he thought they were gonna be outlawed.
I think he's shot it twice since buying it...maybe a few magazines each time. When I ask him about his rifle, he's all praise for it. Says it runs like a top! He says it's in a case under his bed with two loaded magazines, ready to go.
I'm guessing my friend is not alone with this situation or mindset. And when these "AR" buyers go out to buy their kids/grandkids an AR of their own, they will seek out the Rugers, S&W's, Springfield Armory, and now, Savages on the shelf and ready to go.
Just a guess...
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A simple google search returns a bunch of results, one of them is this:
http://weaponsman.com/?p=37876
If you want more details you can find more photo of the said weapons by looking up their model names on Google, many resellers already posted price of these guns. Very reasonably priced.
Interested to see what the assembly quality is but other than the blackhawk garbage they don't seem too bad for the $.
The long range coming with a prs gen 3 is a nice touch. Nothing else it might make a good entry rifle that can be upgraded later.
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Why wouldn't it be real?
IF this is real, Savage blew it BIG.
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Savage_Arms_MSR_15_Patrol_223_5_56_16_22900_p/gun-22900.htm
You put a 5R rifled, .223 Wylde chambered, 1:8" barrel on it and then use cheesy non free float Blackhawk furniture with a Delta ring, goofy sights and mil-spec trigger? Sorry, "BLACKHAWK!" furniture.
I don't even know how to fully express my disappointment. :(
Why wouldn't it be real?
Cause it looks like like it has a standard charging handle... The other promo pictures looked like it has a side charging handle.
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It also had a bigger magazine well
I don't put much into "initial release" type pics. It could also be that they have other models...
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/savage-arms-msr-details-leaked/
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/609252047
Cause it looks like like it has a standard charging handle... The other promo pictures looked like it has a side charging handle.
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here is a little more data
"Pack all the features and upgrades you expect from a Savage precision rifle into a single platform and you have the all-new MSR 10 Long Range. Chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor or 308 Win., it is built on a compact frame with a non-reciprocating side-charging handle. Its BLACKHAWK!® AR Blaze™ two-stage target trigger and Magpul PRS® adjustable buttstock optimize the inherent accuracy of the upgraded Savage barrel, which features 5R rifling and a Melonite QPQ finish.
FEATURES:
6.5 Creedmoor (1:8-inch 5R)
Compact AR-10 design
Fluted heavy barrel with Melonite QPQ finish
Custom forged upper/lower for unique look and compact size
Non-reciprocating side charging handle
Free-float M-LOK® rail
Magpul® PRS Gen3 buttstock
BLACKHAWK! AR Blaze two-stage target trigger
SPECS:
PART NUMBER 22905
DESRIPTION MSR 10 Long Range
MANUFACTURER Savage
ACTION TYPE Direct-impingement semi-auto
CALIBER 6.5 Creedmoor
CAPACITY 10
FINISH Matte black hardcoat anodized receiver and Melonite QPQ barrel
BARREL LENGTH 22”
RIFLING 1:8" 5R Right-hand
STOCK Magpul PRS Gen3
LENGTH 43 5/8”
WEIGHT 10 pounds "
With California banning everything under the sun and other states fearing guns as well.
I personally hope everyone makes a variant of an AR-15; we need support for AR's now more than ever.
God Bless,
Brandon
Averageman
12-29-16, 08:07
Interesting;
An AR in 6.5 Creedmoor with a 22 inch barrel. Now if they can take the time and energy to dedicate themselves to doing this right; well good for them.
And Us.
Austin1776
12-29-16, 08:19
I was involved in focus group testing for Savage, and I signed an NDA, so there is little I can say about it, other than if what we are hearing and seeing is the result of the focus group feedback they got, I can say for sure it is not anything that I was led to expect. Not impressed at this point.
Averageman
12-29-16, 09:31
I was involved in focus group testing for Savage, and I signed an NDA, so there is little I can say about it, other than if what we are hearing and seeing is the result of the focus group feedback they got, I can say for sure it is not anything that I was led to expect. Not impressed at this point.
It's ironic to me that a great idea and a bit of innovative thought can be killed out right.
Non shooters running a company that makes guns is the only reason I can see this happening. I can envision this ending up like Sig rifles that were being made in the US, a great idea killed by shoddy manufacturing a lack of QC and a genuine hate for everything except the money the name can bring in.
It's ironic to me that a great idea and a bit of innovative thought can be killed out right.
Non shooters running a company that makes guns is the only reason I can see this happening. I can envision this ending up like Sig rifles that were being made in the US, a great idea killed by shoddy manufacturing a lack of QC and a genuine hate for everything except the money the name can bring in.
Money matters. How many would they sell if they had to charge KAC prices for it? Not many I'd expect....
Money matters. How many would they sell if they had to charge KAC prices for it? Not many I'd expect....
Wasn't expecting KAC level, but DD/BCM level with a focus on sporting/accuracy would've been nice. The field is littered with $500-700 options, but far fewer in the $900-1300 range.
Wasn't expecting KAC level, but DD/BCM level with a focus on sporting/accuracy would've been nice. The field is littered with $500-700 options, but far fewer in the $900-1300 range.
Don't know about anyone else but my comment was specific to the AR-10 pattern. In that class, $%(&#$ DPMS is $1000 on the low end with Armalight/S&W in the $1400 price range. Unfortunately BCM doesn't make an ar-10 (yet?) and a DD5V1 is like $2800 with prices going sky high from there. Can't imagine anyone would cross shop DD and Savage, least not most people, so price wise they're right there with the cross shop competition.
The Long Range variant has a $2k MSRP and you know street price will be lower by at least 10%. If the blackhawk trigger is at least fair at the very least it could give a good rifle to start with and upgrade later
The similar spec M&P10 that just dropped is $2,035 MSRP without the PRS...
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-10-65-creedmoor
Averageman
12-29-16, 12:02
Wasn't expecting KAC level, but DD/BCM level with a focus on sporting/accuracy would've been nice. The field is littered with $500-700 options, but far fewer in the $900-1300 range.
And that's the price/quality region they need to be looking at 1600- 1900.
They're simply going in to an already flooded market that begs to be filled with a quality alternative to what is presently out there in .308 and 6.5.
Yeah, money talks, but so do good reviews. Imagine an effort put forward by Savage that not only met, but exceeded what was available at a price point that excited the market? It would effect their product name in the positive not only in autoloaders, but bolt action rifles also.
If a rising tide raises all boats, what happens when the tide goes out and they not only damage their AR market, but do damage to the company name?
I own two Savage bolt action rifles, I'm happy with them, I would hope they could do the same with this.
.... In that class, $%(&#$ DPMS is $1000 on the low end with Armalight/S&W in the $1400 price range.
Educate me, because I really don't know. What's wrong with DPMS .308 ARs? And does it hold true to their SASS model? I am not throwing gas, really trying to learn.
Educate me, because I really don't know. What's wrong with DPMS .308 ARs? And does it hold true to their SASS model? I am not throwing gas, really trying to learn.
I just assume DPMS 10s are built to the same exacting quality standards as their 15s. I could be totally wrong. I've never felt like giving DPMS that kind of money to try them out. Maybe someone else can be more helpful.
I just assume DPMS 10s are built to the same exacting quality standards as their 15s. I could be totally wrong. I've never felt like giving DPMS that kind of money to try them out. Maybe someone else can be more helpful.
That's a good point, and it may be totally valid. I do not know if there is a qualitative difference between their 5.56 and .308.
Do the specs mention this thing taking standard parts and mags
Sr22 mag
Ar 10 and 15 trigger, Stock, and grip
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Do the specs mention this thing taking standard parts and mags
Sr22 mag
Ar 10 and 15 trigger, Stock, and grip
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I don't know about the magazine, but it has a enhanced trigger, standard size, and same for stock
"Its BLACKHAWK!® AR Blaze™ two-stage target trigger and Magpul PRS® adjustable buttstock optimize the inherent accuracy of the upgraded Savage barrel, which features 5R rifling and a Melonite QPQ finish."
I agree with this post. I'm totally a free market believer, and regardless if I buy or not, companies that produce a commodity people want to buy are contributing to the overall economy. HiPoint Arms is a great example of this. Most here will scoff and dismiss the idea that the company has any redeeming value, but the reality is there are thousands of Americans who own and shoot these firearms and are satisfied with them. And MANY highpoint have been successfully deployed in both offensive (including criminal) and defensive real life scenarios.
I am not telling anyone here to buy or not buy whatever...free country and all. Just saying the gear considered to be "lower grade junk" by many on this board works to a degree that many Americans enjoy using and will continue to buy.
What people fail to realize is low priced firearms (or any commercial offering) will do two things to the overall market:
1) it makes the big established firms lower their prices (or at least not raise them) to remain competitive, and
2) in prods the established firms to come up with something new the regain their share of the market.
In a true free-market, even mediocre stuff helps the industry as a whole.
Of course, if the stuff is truly sub-par, it won't remain profitable, and will be discontinued. That's why there are no Yugos on the roads....
The AR is today what the Mauser was to the bolt action world in the last century....
BuzzinSATX
12-31-16, 18:42
What people fail to realize is low priced firearms (or any commercial offering) will do two things to the overall market:
1) it makes the big established firms lower their prices (or at least not raise them) to remain competitive, and
2) in prods the established firms to come up with something new the regain their share of the market.
In a true free-market, even mediocre stuff helps the industry as a whole.
Of course, if the stuff is truly sub-par, it won't remain profitable, and will be discontinued. That's why there are no Yugos on the roads....
The AR is today what the Mauser was to the bolt action world in the last century....
Assuming we are talking about the "AR 15 and close variants" market, the impact an additional supplier brings will selectively impact only portions of it.
If you start out with price point, the higher end brands will likely be impacted to a lesser degree as few buyers will likely be comparing, at least at first, a $700 AR with a $2000 AR. But among the market segment of $500-800 AR's, I think the new Savage will be a competitor, just like I think the SA Saint will be.
I suspect the larger impact on the AR market will likely be a reduced demand, at least for the next few years, as the socio-political impact of a more 2A friendly government evolves. That said, there are a few actions that Congress might take that would counter some degree of the AR demand slip.
Specifically, I am wishfully thinking that legislation eliminating registration for suppressors and/or short barrel rifles or even some relief from the ATF ruling regarding shouldering arm braces like the Sig Brace will create a surge in the demand for SBR's, uppers, and suppressors.
Ultimately, we agree on the main point...multiple suppliers and choices for consumers is a very good thing, and a free market will eventually separate winners from losers based on consumer demand, commodity price, and perceived value.
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Dist. Expert 26
01-03-17, 16:09
Now that the release is official, who has hands on the 6.5 Creedmoor model? If it's a quality rifle I'll likely pick one up this year.
I read "custom forged upper and lower" as completely and utterly proprietary
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2017/1/2/5-things-to-know-about-the-savage-msr-10-hunter/
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While I'm not a snavage fan, they do make accurate guns. I don't care about the Blackhawk crap either but I am interested in the 6.5 hunter. hmmm--
Is that cut out at the handguards front for an adjustable gas?
What I like about this is that it is another small frame 308 rifle. Seems as though there is some corroboration between manufacturers in making the small frame 308. Yes DPMS, Adams Arms now Savage. I think this is a good thing and makes a 308 AR more of a usable rifle for hunting and than the older large frame AR10 based rifles.
LGS had one of the 15s when I breezed through today. Was zip tied shut so I couldn't give it a thorough look over but there was nothing obviously wrong externally.
The handguard is slick, as in no texture to speak of.
Pistol grip was ugly but actually felt pretty good. Same texture issue as the handguard though.
Nothing particularly interesting about the stock. Adjustment lever felt a little odd but I couldn't put my finger on why. Castle nut was lightly staked
Nate
NAAH Tool Works
Naahtoolworks@gmail.com
Mrgunsngear
04-10-17, 23:12
http://i.imgur.com/VYz60lll.jpg
Just picked mine up :moil:
http://i.imgur.com/VYz60lll.jpg
Just picked mine up :moil:
What did that beauty set you back?
Being new and all, I believe n Free market and trade. Lots of agencies using their swat .308 bolt set ups. Bolts I've shot and own are great. That being said, how many misfire or accidental fire horror stories of rem. 700's?, mil spec. Stuff , right? If Springfield can why can't Savage. Not everyone is an operational shooter needing a huge dollar gun. There are a lot of average Americans out there buying guns. Buy the way, Thanks to all service men and women for your service. I would rather buy from a company that's been around a super long time, proven company, than a new one taking parts from God knows where to make a gun and out of business in a couple of years left with my c$&@ in my hand with no warranty or parts. I'm sure Savage and Springfield will make it and refine their stuff with time. Most of us know great makers of the ar platform, just not everyone can afford. Mil spec. and commercial are never going to be the same. So why should we waste time bashing it if there are many unknowns as of info to date?
Advanced AR shooters have definite ideas about how these guns should be put together. They have noted that the market is being flooded by entry level(read as not as good)AR's. These guys say wait and save another $150-250 and buy a proven product like a Colt 6920. They will point out that a lower price AR will have low trade and resale value. They like to talk shop and sometimes talk shit about lower tier weapons. Much of what they say is true. I ended up with an Expanse/Smith hybrid which I truly love. One reason I truly love the gun is that I paid too much for it, am stuck with it, and now feel better by claiming its virtues. It has excellent fit and finish and fires every time I pull the trigger. Once I hit a flying bird with it but don't tell people that for the last 30 years I have been standing on the same river bank and shooting at the same damn bird and finally hit it. Nobody dares flame me when I write about my Expanse because I preface my post with a blurb about being a dirt clod and stump shooter. Lower tier AR's may have a place in the scheme of things, but that place is not readily acknowledged here. I see you're new. Welcome. Begin studying the subject matter stickies and avoid arguments centering around whether or not lower cost AR's are worthwhile.
Advanced AR shooters have definite ideas about how these guns should be put together. They have noted that the market is being flooded by entry level(read as not as good)AR's. These guys say wait and save another $150-250 and buy a proven product like a Colt 6920. They will point out that a lower price AR will have low trade and resale value. They like to talk shop and sometimes talk shit about lower tier weapons. Much of what they say is true. I ended up with an Expanse/Smith hybrid which I truly love. One reason I truly love the gun is that I paid too much for it, am stuck with it, and now feel better by claiming its virtues. It has excellent fit and finish and fires every time I pull the trigger. Once I hit a flying bird with it but don't tell people that for the last 30 years I have been standing on the same river bank and shooting at the same damn bird and finally hit it. Nobody dares flame me when I write about my Expanse because I preface my post with a blurb about being a dirt clod and stump shooter. Lower tier AR's may have a place in the scheme of things, but that place is not readily acknowledged here. I see you're new. Welcome. Begin studying the subject matter stickies and avoid arguments centering around whether or not lower cost AR's are worthwhile.
Definitely not trying to stir the old pot as one would say. And advice is taken. Savage and Springfield have both stepped up to the plate. It would be like any other company jumping to m1a-m14 or Ak world. There will be a learning curve don't you think? Better to have companies proven in the gun world. I wish every gun maker was a small high quality manufacture yet the world dictates otherwise. I'm just happy to have a choice to dictate my needs. Myself I've went into this Ar platform doing upgrades because I didn't feel comfortable enough to build. Just trying to learn some important stuff to build the better Ar for the next time so I don't have to start mid level. Yes I wish I had tons of money to throw at the upper brands and parts, but family dictates otherwise. We all must start somewhere, Eh?
Academy Sports has offered Savage AR's at sale prices. I like Savage and have owned a number of their long guns with complete satisfaction. I would expect that their AR's would be ok. They've not been on the market long enough for anyone to have learned much about them. You might call Savage and talk with a customer service representative to hear their spiel. Smith and Wesson is giving rebates on the Shield pistols and may do the same on their AR line which has a sporting model and then the real deal above it. My local gun shop is selling Colt Expanses for $650. I've researched the line, and although I still say buy a Colt 6920, I think that the Expanse is a lot of rifle for $650 and may be a lot better than other low end AR's. I'm giving an unqualified, biased opinion on the Expanse.
To bring up the dead, is totally buy one if the roll mark was the old savage logo with the Indian..
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