View Full Version : What have you learned about your shooting lately?
I figured this could be an ongoing discussion about habits that each person is currently trying to learn or unlearn. I don't really see these discussed often unless it relates to a specific piece of gear or course AAR but it may be beneficial to figure out what people are identifying for themselves. For example, my trigger finger discipline with a rifle is usually very good, but I'm bad about mounting my pistol trigger as soon as I draw. I'm trying to fix it so that I'm not on the trigger until my sights are on target. Another big one is fumbled mag reloads. I have a really bad habit of basically quitting and resetting to try again instead of pushing through the fumble and getting the gun back into action. That one reminds me of the stories of police being trained to draw, fire twice, and reholster - and getting killed for it. Any specific things you guys are working on? I always find a few things at a course and sometimes when I force myself to dry fire.
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I like to dry fire at a blank white wall to work on rapid sight alignment and trigger control. I also like to practice magazine changes during dry drills and follow up shots until I start to lose focus or until the wife shouts "stop that damn clicking!"
I fire 250 - 300 rounds during a range session with a handgun, often times more. On the range I like to work on live fire drills where I fire one round, reload, then fire one more round. I'll burn through one box of ammunition, 25 cycles, each range outing. If I fumble the reload or if the magazine hits the deck, I follow through until I send the second round downrange. I've run qualifications where a LEO sent their spare magazine into orbit after removing it from the magazine pouch, grabbed it off the deck with a handful of grass and earth, then completed the reload and fired their shots in the allotted time. Don't stop, don't quit.
Another drill I like to run is firing series of shots on multiple targets, never the same number of rounds per target or presentation. I will not top off magazines between evolutions and perform a lot of slide lock reloads during practice.
One important thing I teach my students is not to be in a hurry to holster the weapon after engaging the threat. You un-holster your service pistol in a big, fast hurry to address a threat, but that doesn't mean you need to holster quickly.
It's good to analyze how you train and how it pertains to a lethal force situation. Analyzing how to improve training evolutions shows a sense of dedication to improving the skill set.
I shortfill mags to practice changes under live fire. Throw snap caps in the mix to introduce fail drills.
Getting equal time on .40/.45 and then going to 9 and working out the overcompensation. It's not like a heavier recoil makes for better control, but just shooting a lot does.
RioGrandeGreen
12-22-16, 22:29
Good info guys
To answer the question "What have you learned about your shooting lately?" during each range session I learn that I still have a great deal of room for improvement.
Doc Safari
12-23-16, 09:13
I still see good enough at 50+ years old to shoot long guns well with irons sights, and that to get good with the ACOG I'm going to have to practice holding steady better.
WickedWillis
12-23-16, 10:15
I learned that I shot my carry and other handguns 4x more than any of my rifles this year. That includes a 750+ round down range week over Thanksgiving with my Tavor. Near me so many places won't allow you to shoot a rifle or carbine at more than one round per second, all standing static. One of my goals next year is to find a place where I can do both, and train my butt off.
I know I can do plenty of things better, but I am very comfortable and confident that I could carry or use any handgun I own right now, and that makes me happy.
Nightstalker865
12-23-16, 11:03
I learned over the past year that I have developed a bad habit of pinning the trigger. I have made a conscious effort to avoid that and it has greatly improved my shooting at speed.
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WickedWillis
12-23-16, 11:12
I learned over the past year that I have developed a bad habit of pinning the trigger. I have made a conscious effort to avoid that and it has greatly improved my shooting at speed.
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I'm pretty illiterate to many terms, what exactly is pinning the trigger? if you don't mind
Nightstalker865
12-23-16, 11:25
I'm pretty illiterate to many terms, what exactly is pinning the trigger? if you don't mind
Holding the trigger to the rear after the shot breaks then slowly riding it out to reset. Doing this slows your follow up shot down because instead of being ready to break the next shot as soon as the sights settle, the shooter is having to wait to get that audible/tactile feedback from the trigger. They then reaffirm sight picture and break the shot. I fell into this habit over the past couple years and have been working at breaking myself of it. In doing so I've noticed a significant increase in accuracy when shooting rapidly, especially on the move.
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WickedWillis
12-23-16, 11:56
Holding the trigger to the rear after the shot breaks then slowly riding it out to reset. Doing this slows your follow up shot down because instead of being ready to break the next shot as soon as the sights settle, the shooter is having to wait to get that audible/tactile feedback from the trigger. They then reaffirm sight picture and break the shot. I fell into this habit over the past couple years and have been working at breaking myself of it. In doing so I've noticed a significant increase in accuracy when shooting rapidly, especially on the move.
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Thank you for explaining that. I am very guilty of this as well, sounds like I have another training scar to work on.
Holding the trigger to the rear after the shot breaks then slowly riding it out to reset. Doing this slows your follow up shot down because instead of being ready to break the next shot as soon as the sights settle, the shooter is having to wait to get that audible/tactile feedback from the trigger. They then reaffirm sight picture and break the shot. I fell into this habit over the past couple years and have been working at breaking myself of it. In doing so I've noticed a significant increase in accuracy when shooting rapidly, especially on the move.
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That is something else I found as well. Because of my slow reset, I end up jerking the trigger quite a bit when shooting faster. Jason pointed it out to me so I'm working on a slow, smooth pull followed by fast reset and take up. Dry firing with this is super important though because I have a light trigger and it takes some time to get a feel for where that wall is when moving quickly.
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contax_shooter
12-23-16, 12:52
I learned that I shot my carry and other handguns 4x more than any of my rifles this year. That includes a 750+ round down range week over Thanksgiving with my Tavor. Near me so many places won't allow you to shoot a rifle or carbine at more than one round per second, all standing static. One of my goals next year is to find a place where I can do both, and train my butt off.
I know I can do plenty of things better, but I am very comfortable and confident that I could carry or use any handgun I own right now, and that makes me happy.
This.
The one thing I've learned is that I need to remember what I've learned. What I mean by that is I've paid a lot of money to take classes and I go to the range and I forget to practice the drills and fundamentals they taught me.
I try to get the range every day the weather and temp are in my comfort zone - I learned to function in the cold and damp long ago, don't really need the practice.
Recently, I've been trying to get more from each round fired - for example recently in the garage (dryfire area) I did press outs working the trigger to the target, then a session of slow and deliberate reloads - I find working on speed trigger manipulation during dry drills makes ME sloppy, YMMV; on the range I have stepped back from multiple round drills, e.g. presentation, fire a pair, reload fire a pair, to more single round drills. This extends my range visit, making the daily trip worthwhile, and conserves ammo, which since retirement is on me.
So as an example the majority of my reloads drills are pressout, fire one, lock back, reload, press on a dummy, immediate action, on target, hold at slack out, recover, reset, repeat. First load is a mag of one, all other mags are one round live with a dummy on top (live, dummy is the way I've always said this, explained in case you don't use same jargon). I'll rep that about 8 times getting only presentation time on the clock; then I'll rep it another 8 to 12 times the same way except moving, focusing on continuing to move during the reload and immediate action ending behind cover; Then I'll do it two reload, two on the move, and get my reload splits on the move. Still ending behind cover.
When I've completed 50ish rounds, I police brass, put everything in order on that bay, sit down, finish my coffee (my Yeti has let it cool enough to drink by then) or have a diet pepsi. I then move as appropriate to practice an action pistol or GSSF stage with another 50-75 rounds.
I find I'm on the range about 2 hours with that routine.
I've never been a fan of 'high round count' just to have the round count, I find I'm better able to focus this way and the whole deal is actually more relaxing.
Fast follows form.
nightchief
12-25-16, 06:47
I shoot two handguns...Glock 17 and a 1911
I've been shooting the Glock primarily for the past three years. Got back to also owning a 1911 recently. What I've learned is that the high grip that I'm used too from drawing the G17 sometimes causes me not to engage the grip safety on the 1911. Occasionally when running a drill in which I draw the 1911 from a holster I'll grip it high enough on the beaver tail that it won't depress the safety sufficiently for the 1911 to fire. If I'm going slow, it's not usually an issue, but when I increase the speed of the draw, that when I get a FTF from the high grip.
I shoot two handguns...Glock 17 and a 1911
I've been shooting the Glock primarily for the past three years. Got back to also owning a 1911 recently. What I've learned is that the high grip that I'm used too from drawing the G17 sometimes causes me not to engage the grip safety on the 1911. Occasionally when running a drill in which I draw the 1911 from a holster I'll grip it high enough on the beaver tail that it won't depress the safety sufficiently for the 1911 to fire. If I'm going slow, it's not usually an issue, but when I increase the speed of the draw, that when I get a FTF from the high grip.
Does the 1911 have a memory bump on the grip safety?
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Eurodriver
12-28-16, 18:26
Any specific things you guys are working on? I always find a few things at a course and sometimes when I force myself to dry fire.
Specific? Beat F2S. It sounds silly, but if I can get to that level I will consider myself learnt. Healthy competition should be encouraged. Who doesn't want to be #1? I noticed that I did not win a single stage despite a podium finish. In fact, some stages I came in as far down as 5th, but I was never at the bottom whether it was single handed pistol, long range rifle, rifle/pistol combination stages.
I think for me, specifically, I need to step out of the weekend plinker realm and get serious. I've always been a good shooter, but impressing your buddies by blasting out the 10 ring at your local weekend range day is not the same as being a sucker free boss.
nightchief
12-28-16, 18:32
Does the 1911 have a memory bump on the grip safety?
Yes, If this is what I believe you are referring too...
43079
I really think its the shooter and not the firearm though...still learning
When I draw the Glock, I grab it really high...What I think is happening, is the same grab of the 1911 is slightly upward, where the grip safey and the frame meet before the flare of the beaver tail and I don't get the safety depressed. When this happens, I don't think my palm makes barely any contact with the "memory bump".
NC
Recently had an opportunity to take my rifles to a small (25 yd) indoor rifle range.
That trip, I learned if I grab one in a home defense situation, it won't be the f*cking .308
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P2Vaircrewman
12-31-16, 08:59
Shooting my G 19 at an FBI silhouette target at 15 yards with an 8" 8 ring I can keep 95% of my shots inside the 8 ring, 75 % inside the 9 ring. Shooting an 8" steel plate is a different story, for some reason I can't do the same, I miss the 8"plate more than the 8 ring on paper.
I could be off but there's a saying "you aim at paper and shoot at steel" My take on that is the steel is more engaging which may affect your marksmanship, that should tell you something.
P2Vaircrewman
01-02-17, 09:28
I had a trainer tell me it could be the small black bull in the center of the paper target concentrates my point of aim but the all white steel doesn't. I plan on putting a black aiming point in the center of the steel and see what happens.
sevenhelmet
01-02-17, 10:16
Aim small, miss small.
I am another trigger pinner (didn't know that's what it was called until I read this thread.) Because of that, my first shot will often nail the target, but I have a tendency to send follow-up shots wild. Only happens when I let myself get rushed. I also have trouble with weak side supported or weak hand only shots.
Headed to an LAV pistol class in a couple of weeks. I'm dry-firing now to try and minimize the issues I know about, because I'm sure I have more.
What have I learned about my shooting? I feel the more I practice, the more practice I need.
Shooting is like a golf swing for me. The more rounds I put down range, and pay attention to the fundamentals, the better I am. When I go some time without shooting, my skills suffer greatly. I can still be "combat accurate", but it takes a while to shake the rust off.
I had a trainer tell me it could be the small black bull in the center of the paper target concentrates my point of aim but the all white steel doesn't. I plan on putting a black aiming point in the center of the steel and see what happens.
Instead of painting a black dot on your steel, pick a spot. Pick a spot in the center of what you want hit and aim for that spot. One drill we have shot is to put up a large, blank piece of paper, pick a spot and shoot a group. When hunting, animals don't come with a bullseye, yet the hunter needs to put the bullet into the vitals, so the hunter needs to learn to know what they need to hit and pick the spot that will allow them to hit it. When a hunter simply shots at the animal instead of picking a spot, they miss more often, or worse, sound the animal instead of making a clean kill
What have I learned about my shooting? I feel the more I practice, the more practice I need.
Tell me about it. The more I practice reloads, the more I screw up inserting the mag. I'm hoping it's just because I'm pushing myself to failure since it's practice.
Instead of painting a black dot on your steel, pick a spot. Pick a spot in the center of what you want hit and aim for that spot. One drill we have shot is to put up a large, blank piece of paper, pick a spot and shoot a group. When hunting, animals don't come with a bullseye, yet the hunter needs to put the bullet into the vitals, so the hunter needs to learn to know what they need to hit and pick the spot that will allow them to hit it. When a hunter simply shots at the animal instead of picking a spot, they miss more often, or worse, sound the animal instead of making a clean kill
Good way of putting it. Kind of obvious, but not something I had thought of.
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P2Vaircrewman
01-02-17, 19:54
But after the first shot you then have a spot to aim for.
I have learned that I can out shoot the majority of the gun owning public with NO SIGHTS on my gun. :-(
C4
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Leaveammoforme
01-02-17, 20:19
Recently I've learned I need to get to the range alone more often. Snuck out 3 times by myself this past week. No one to entertain, nobody to watch and only did what I wanted to work on.
Just me, an action bay, a Pact 3 and plenty of pasters.
I've learned that I still enjoy a day on the range whether it be in 95 degree heat, freezing rain or extremely windy conditions.
Averageman
01-04-17, 13:56
I've been shooting 75% Pistol and 25% Carbine/Rifle for the last couple of years and have seen a marked decline in my Rifle skills, Carbine not so much.
As I have leaned more to rifle, both bolt and semi to regain those skills I've come to the conclusion that there are some days where if you're having a really bad day, pack it up. It's better to come back and start over than to keep shooting poorly.
That's not to say don't figure out what you are doing wrong and correct it. It is just that some times it's better to go home than to add to the frustration.
Bluedreaux
01-06-17, 13:44
I've learned how important vision is to shooting. Not just "have good vision", but knowing what I need to see and learning to only see what I need to for each shot.
I've learned how important vision is to shooting. Not just "have good vision", but knowing what I need to see and learning to only see what I need to for each shot.
I like the way you put that.
This morning I was thinking about the expression, "don't rush to failure" and meant to post it here:
Some time ago, we were on the range and did a small competition. It involved a sprint, and then shooting a few steel targets at varying distances. First one to shoot it clean wins. I felt that I should have been better than the guy I was up against and I let it get to me. I had him beat on the sprint and got my initial round off first. It missed so I lost - damn ego. What I realized this morning is the interesting part. I fired a follow-up shot almost instantly, before I even realized that my first shot didn't hit. It's almost as if I knew my first shot was going to miss so I subconsciously fired a second shot as soon as I got on target, which couldn't have been more than a second later.
It really goes back to one of the recent BCM clips from Northern Red on "making noise." I knew it was a bad habit of mine but I hadn't thought about it in that scenario until today. I guess on the positive side I did a good job at checking my work through my sights and follow through...
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But after the first shot you then have a spot to aim for.
But does the first shot hit your spot?
Move the target out far enough that you can't see the bullet holes
thopkins22
01-13-17, 02:11
That after years and years of shooting(some years effectively training and developing skills, and some years ****ing around and only barely maintaining those same skills,) I can still develop a flinch(and genuine and lasting wrist pain) with 10 rounds of hot loaded S&W 500 Magnum my friend hunts with.
I overcame it with a few days of ball and dummy and a ton of dry fire.
More seriously, I've also realized that my eyes' ability to focus closely is disappearing at a younger age than I thought it happened at(or my definition of young has aged with me.). As a function of this, I'm pickier than ever about pistol sights, as I've learned that I can get decent trigger control with time and effort on even horrible triggers. But I can't make my eyes work better.
It's actually far more noticeable with a rifle because I've already chosen excellent pistol sights, whereas my ability to focus on the front sight of a rifle, and still have any ability to not have the blurred bullseye float left or right despite my best efforts is waining.
Optics are still a luxury, but their ability to help me see better is in fact beginning to transform into my ability to shoot better.
I've learned how important vision is to shooting. Not just "have good vision", but knowing what I need to see and learning to only see what I need to for each shot.
Having good vision is important. As you age it becomes necessary to adjust your shooting technique to compensate for vision changes.
contax_shooter
01-13-17, 08:40
Practice with irons more often. I was barely able to maintain a proper sight picture when zeroing due to all the crap in my view (KAC micro sights looking through the Aimpoint H2 along with the ATPIAL-C in black. The base of the front sight was getting lost so I was all over the place). Total rookie move but I couldn't see much out to 50yds.
futurerider103
01-13-17, 10:56
I have learned I really prefer a traditional style stock over a pistol grip
That I need to practice rifle more often...... I went shooting with a friend and my rifle groups at 25 yards look bothersomely like my pistol groups at 25 yards.
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Wanted to bring this back as I thought there was some valuable input. One of the more recent things I realized was on the importance of breathing, something I've always kind of disregarded except when zeroing or shooting beyond 100m. I realized though that I have a bad habit of holding my breath during drills and think that may be why I get fatigued rather quickly. My rifle isn't really heavy and I'm in decent shape and I've caught myself doing it before so I think it makes sense. I'm trying to incorporate very forced breath cycles into dry fire now because my hands become unsteady way too fast.
Dr. Bullseye
11-25-17, 12:49
I am a beginner with less than two years experience. I found out the C-grip is better for quick followup shooting so I changed to it along with the stance change and moving the stock towards the center of my body. These changes made the sling uncomfortable so I modified the sling.
voiceofreason
12-02-17, 17:14
Recently had an opportunity to take my rifles to a small (25 yd) indoor rifle range.
That trip, I learned if I grab one in a home defense situation, it won't be the f*cking .308
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HAHAHAHA!!!
Why I'm still running an A2 birdcage.
voiceofreason
12-02-17, 17:22
I get a LOT more accomplished shooting by myself than I do with others unless it's an actual class.
I recently ran my standard maintenance COF that I do at 25 yards practicing multiple positions, reloads, shooting from non-traditional positions, etc...then decided to turn off my red dot and run it again running only through my lower 1/3 co-witnessed fixed sights. groups opened WAY up, took me almost 2x as long as well. need more irons practice in difficult positions
Lying on my side shooting off my left side/support side underneath a simulated vehicle... I realized how much of a struggle it was to reach the mag on my left hip (the one I'm lying on) when my trigger arm is the one I'm lying on... it was a cluster**** and I got up after the drill shaking my head at how horribly inefficiently I ran that drill. deadman laying there.
Sancho Panza
12-02-17, 17:38
Going to need some optics soon.
Aside from the fact that I suck...
I need to work carbine at close ranges. I’ve been doing the 100 yd and longer from supported positions. My ability to run a gun in close now sucks. I need to balance my range time FAAAAAR better.
Also, my arms strength has gone to poop since I’ve retired from playing soccer. 2 mags of low ready to target and my left bicep was sore.
I learned that I suck, and I mean S-U-C-K at shooting off hand, opposite side (Shooting left handed. I'm right handed). I can't even find the sights. I need a LOT of practice in this area.
P2Vaircrewman
12-03-17, 08:53
I get a LOT more accomplished shooting by myself than I do with others unless it's an actual class.
I recently ran my standard maintenance COF that I do at 25 yards practicing multiple positions, reloads, shooting from non-traditional positions, etc...then decided to turn off my red dot and run it again running only through my lower 1/3 co-witnessed fixed sights. groups opened WAY up, took me almost 2x as long as well. need more irons practice in difficult positions
Lying on my side shooting off my left side/support side underneath a simulated vehicle... I realized how much of a struggle it was to reach the mag on my left hip (the one I'm lying on) when my trigger arm is the one I'm lying on... it was a cluster**** and I got up after the drill shaking my head at how horribly inefficiently I ran that drill. deadman laying there.
I find this to be true. Although I enjoy the social aspect of shooting with friends I find I need to be alone to get any real training done.
I get a LOT more accomplished shooting by myself than I do with others unless it's an actual class.
Lying on my side shooting off my left side/support side underneath a simulated vehicle... I realized how much of a struggle it was to reach the mag on my left hip (the one I'm lying on) when my trigger arm is the one I'm lying on... it was a cluster**** and I got up after the drill shaking my head at how horribly inefficiently I ran that drill. deadman laying there.
I have always found the same to be true. I train by myself. I fun shoot with others.
Your not dead if you can get hits. At some point your equipment is not going to be optimally situated. Maybe think about a reload on the way down so you have a full mag to get it done.
You want to train like you are going to fight. If you don't wear a chest rig or war belt all the time, you need to practice without that gear.
I generally practice reloads from a back pocket because I HOPE if I need my rifle I'll have the wherewithall to pick up the spare mag I have staged with it. And, yes, I've practiced putting it into my pocket correctly.
The smallest improvement can huge.
Ive gotten better at trigger control, but my grip always seems to be an issue.
If I could keep my damn thumb off the slide lock (sig 226) for instance.
Practice, practice, practice.
Ed
militarymoron
12-14-17, 10:42
My hands get sweaty when shooting pistol, and I find my support hand fingers slipping on the back of my strong hand fingers sometimes. I found myself having to re-adjust my support grip mid-string as my hands got sweatier.
Gloves help, but I don't generally use gloves when shooting pistol; especially at an indoor range. I rock climb, and recently started using liquid chalk. It dries on your hands to improve your grip and isn't as messy as loose (powdered chalk). I tried some the last couple of times shooting (just a bit on the back of my strong hand fingers and my support hand fingertips), and it made a noticeable improvement. Support hand didn't slip and felt much firmer/stable.
My hands get sweaty when shooting pistol, and I find my support hand fingers slipping on the back of my strong hand fingers sometimes. I found myself having to re-adjust my support grip mid-string as my hands got sweatier.
Gloves help, but I don't generally use gloves when shooting pistol; especially at an indoor range. I rock climb, and recently started using liquid chalk. It dries on your hands to improve your grip and isn't as messy as loose (powdered chalk). I tried some the last couple of times shooting (just a bit on the back of my strong hand fingers and my support hand fingertips), and it made a noticeable improvement. Support hand didn't slip and felt much firmer/stable.
Huh. That’s an interesting idea.
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militarymoron
12-14-17, 11:57
Huh. That’s an interesting idea.
Here's what I use: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/climbing-chalk-and-bags-BD5504930000ALL1.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIevLWVcEahq5sO_YV_QzIRO85DpFItiP1ogcEpOBeXKX9_sDLB10ZhgaAlTVEALw_wcB
Dr. Bullseye
12-14-17, 12:02
I have learned when you make a change, an improvement, it may set in motion other changes which were unanticipated.
LMT Shooter
12-14-17, 13:53
The smallest improvement can huge.
Ive gotten better at trigger control, but my grip always seems to be an issue.
If I could keep my damn thumb off the slide lock (sig 226) for instance.
Practice, practice, practice.
Ed
That's a common problem with SIG's, but easily solved, given enough practice.
I've been in to guns for 15 years but it's just been in the last 2-3 years that I really began taking shooting seriously and started training. In that relatively short period of time I've acquired a taste for things just as a wine connoisseur or cigar aficionado does, and transitioned from being a run of the mill collector and enthusiast to becoming a shooter. I've learned what works for me and what doesn't, and sold off the vast majority of my old stuff to consolidate and focus in on that. I used to see consistency as redundancy and thought guys with nothing but three or four ARs and Glocks were boring. In practice, I quickly found that I had a vast array of wildly different firearms that I just thought were cool and only had passing familiarity with any of them.
One thing I learn every single time I'm out is how much more time and money I need to put in to my training. I am inconsistent. I have days where I feel like a badass leaving the range and others when I feel like a loser. It's that "consistent inconsistency" that drives me nuts and it's purely due to a lack of time on the range. Sometimes there's something I saw online that I want to try, so I go out and get ahead of myself trying to do things above my skill level or that push me past the limits of my current mastery of the fundamentals. I am not a professional and my everyday life does not permit me to be on the range as often as I'd like, but it's something I now strive towards.
Beyond that, I'm only 30 but every time I hit the range I'm reminded of my poor physical condition compared to just a few years ago. I'm fatter, my knees hurt, my left hip/groin area "catches" all the time and hurts like hell, my eyes suck more and more every year. It prompted me to start watching my diet a little closer, be more active and start wearing corrective lenses full time, which has translated to good things in day to day life beyond shooting.
My hands get sweaty when shooting pistol, and I find my support hand fingers slipping on the back of my strong hand fingers sometimes. I found myself having to re-adjust my support grip mid-string as my hands got sweatier.
Gloves help, but I don't generally use gloves when shooting pistol; especially at an indoor range. I rock climb, and recently started using liquid chalk. It dries on your hands to improve your grip and isn't as messy as loose (powdered chalk). I tried some the last couple of times shooting (just a bit on the back of my strong hand fingers and my support hand fingertips), and it made a noticeable improvement. Support hand didn't slip and felt much firmer/stable.
Huh. That’s an interesting idea.
Here's what I use:
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/climbing-chalk-and-bags-BD5504930000ALL1.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIevLWVcEahq5sO_YV_QzIRO85DpFItiP1ogcEpOBeXKX9_sDLB10ZhgaAlTVEALw_wcB
Here is something I've seen guys use: Krunch Products Pro Grip Enhancer:
http://benstoegerproshop.com/pro-grip-progrip-enhancer-lotion-bottle-2-fl-oz/
https://dawsonprecision.com/pro-grip-grip-enhancer-spray/
Plus there are all kinds of general athletic products such as Cramer Firm Grip in either powder or spray: http://www.cramersportsmed.com/firm-grip-4-oz
I tried a golf grip hand spray I bought at WalMart after attending a course put on by Robert Vogel (I don't remember what he used) it was more of an anti-persperant for your hands then it was stick-um.
Although you specifically mentioned not using gloves, I currently use these gloves and love them: https://www.rogersshootingschool.com/products/rogersgloves.php
Before I got the Rogers Gloves you would have had to beat me with a stick to wear shooting gloves during the summer months, now I don't leave home without them.
nightchief
12-15-17, 01:32
Wanted to bring this back as I thought there was some valuable input. One of the more recent things I realized was on the importance of breathing, something I've always kind of disregarded except when zeroing or shooting beyond 100m. I realized though that I have a bad habit of holding my breath during drills and think that may be why I get fatigued rather quickly. My rifle isn't really heavy and I'm in decent shape and I've caught myself doing it before so I think it makes sense. I'm trying to incorporate very forced breath cycles into dry fire now because my hands become unsteady way too fast.
I am in complete agreement on the breathing! I really noticed this trying to shoot the Navy Qual drill (Jeff Gonzales, et al) 5 standing, 5 kneeling 5 prone into an 8" target. I also noticed the breathing issue, or rather lack thereof, while participating in a defensive pistol comp a couple of weeks ago. On the Navy Qual, I was holding my breath in while shooting standing and kneeling. Definitely contributed to me throwing shots out of the ring.
During the pistol match, I burned through entire Glock mags without breathing out. Kills accuracy since the fatigue catches up quickly. As soon as I reminded myself to breathe, I was more accurate. Also, the breath hold causes me to anticipate the shot break and flinch more often.
I learned that with a pistol, I need more work on basic trigger control. Strangely enough, this is more of an issue for me in SA than in DA. Fundamentals.
militarymoron
12-15-17, 07:50
Although you specifically mentioned not using gloves, I currently use these gloves and love them: https://www.rogersshootingschool.com/products/rogersgloves.php
Before I got the Rogers Gloves you would have had to beat me with a stick to wear shooting gloves during the summer months, now I don't leave home without them.
Never seen those gloves before - interesting.
P2Vaircrewman
12-15-17, 09:46
I was reading the thread Two for Flinching and saw 26Inf's dry fire lesson plan. I used it daily for about a week and the first time I went live fire. I learned I was releasing the trigger all the way between shots, although I thought I wasn't, instead of only to the reset point. This proved to be hard to overcome without slowing way down and being very conscious of holding the trigger back after the shot and then easing it back to reset. I think it will take a lot live fire to over come the habit of releasing the trigger all the way because dry fire doesn't replicate the recoil and cycling of the action in such a short time.
Never seen those gloves before - interesting.
They have proved to be more durable than they look. And I'm not wild about the looks, they remind me of the isotoner gloves my mom wore in the 70's, but they work.
I believe they are made by Hatch. At least that is what Optics Planet advertises them as, here is the link, it has a pretty good picture: https://shop.opticsplanet.com/hatch-rogers-shooting-glove.html?_iv_code=JH-GL-RSG-RSG100SM&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn-mY7rSM2AIVXp7ACh03dgx9EAQYASABEgKv8vD_BwE
ETA: I just pulled mine out of the bag, the label is pretty worn, I couldn't read anything.
I was reading the thread Two for Flinching and saw 26Inf's dry fire lesson plan. I used it daily for about a week and the first time I went live fire. I learned I was releasing the trigger all the way between shots, although I thought I wasn't, instead of only to the reset point. This proved to be hard to overcome without slowing way down and being very conscious of holding the trigger back after the shot and then easing it back to reset. I think it will take a lot live fire to over come the habit of releasing the trigger all the way because dry fire doesn't replicate the recoil and cycling of the action in such a short time.
This is true. You can speed up the process in dryfire, but not while holding on a target, which is why I advocate the between the legs thing.
As soon you feel the striker release you should be going to the reset.
IIRC Firefly and I are the only ones who talk much about the Bill Rogers Shooting School. If I can describe it accurately, Rogers teaches 'press, flip, press' with no emphasis on remaining in contact with the trigger. I gave it my best shot when I was there, but I couldn't retrain myself from the method that I described.
I've also trained with Rob Vogel. From his teaching I finally became aware that I was not gripping the gun tightly enough. This was eye opening, because folks had commented to me that it looked like I was shooting a .22 when demoing multiple shoot drills. I was gripping the weapon tight enough to control it, but not tight enough that I couldn't tighten my grip during the press.
Back home I started using grippers (until I got tendenitis - LOL) and slowed down to focus on a tighter grip. I saw immediate improvement. I also noticed that my arms and hands were physically tired after my normal 200 round range sessions.
Its a journey.
P2Vaircrewman
12-15-17, 12:03
This is true. You can speed up the process in dryfire, but not while holding on a target, which is why I advocate the between the legs thing.
As soon you feel the striker release you should be going to the reset.
IIRC Firefly and I are the only ones who talk much about the Bill Rogers Shooting School. If I can describe it accurately, Rogers teaches 'press, flip, press' with no emphasis on remaining in contact with the trigger. I gave it my best shot when I was there, but I couldn't retrain myself from the method that I described.
I've also trained with Rob Vogel. From his teaching I finally became aware that I was not gripping the gun tightly enough. This was eye opening, because folks had commented to me that it looked like I was shooting a .22 when demoing multiple shoot drills. I was gripping the weapon tight enough to control it, but not tight enough that I couldn't tighten my grip during the press.
Back home I started using grippers (until I got tendenitis - LOL) and slowed down to focus on a tighter grip. I saw immediate improvement. I also noticed that my arms and hands were physically tired after my normal 200 round range sessions.
Its a journey.
It's been a long journey trying to make the switch from a 1911 to a Glock after shooting only 1911's and other single actions for 50 years.
LMT Shooter
12-15-17, 13:38
Now that my right (dominant) hand is in a cast for 8-10 weeks, I've learned how much of a dumbass I am for not working on my left hand shooting more. Obviously I will have time to work on it now:mad:
militarymoron
12-15-17, 14:44
Back home I started using grippers (until I got tendenitis - LOL) and slowed down to focus on a tighter grip. I saw immediate improvement. I also noticed that my arms and hands were physically tired after my normal 200 round range sessions.
I've been indoor rock climbing for about 6 years now (2-3 times a week, 2-3 hours each session); and it develops finger/grip/forearm strength that I never previously had even with 30 years of lifting weights (and chinups etc). As a side benefit, I've noticed an improvement in my recoil control with a pistol (due to a firmer grip without using as much energy as before and stronger forearms), and also endurance (grip-wise).
Well took the day off and went down to the range, sub 20 degree weather and snow be damned, I was going to shoot today. Anyway, Drug out my EDC 19, my 1911, and my little Colt .38, since we were talking about them earlier this week, and finally my HD BCM. Side note, while I wasn't running any especially hard, the only gun that malfed was the revolver. Mostly because it looked like I didn't let the trigger all the way out at speed and in gloves, but I did get the cylinder to lock up a couple times.
Anyway, shooting in gloves I found that the gloves I was using changed my grip enough that I was throwing rounds a little at distance since it was causing me to push the gun to the left a little. Cold and fatigue did not help. Also, did some reload drills, if you haven't tried to reload a glock in gloves, in cold weather, with four layers on with your reload against your skin, then you have not tried to do a cold weather reload. I ****ed some shit up on that one. Good training though.
lastly, did some testing on some M3 MCT mags. I like them. They ran good. Probably going to get some more. But, that wasn't the interesting part. The interesting part was that running my BCM with Aimpoint between the heat/smoke/vapor coming off the rifle, and what I was putting during some of the drills, I managed to fog my Aimpoint, not completely but a fair bit on a number of drills. That was interesting, and has be reconsidering cold weather configs.
I’ve been learning that as I try to improve my pistol accuracy, grip is a major factor. Not grip strength in my fingers, but rather how I apply it. I noticed that I had a sympathetic tightening of fingers as I neared the end of the pull, opening my groups. The solution has been dry fire practice, and allowing my right thumb to press harder against the frame. This cured what I initially thought might be a flinch.
After spending 2.5 months focusing on carbine work, my pistol skills deminished markedly.
I think I'm going to go back to AR mags with the bullets rear on my belt. I've been trying bullets forward like a pistol mag for about a year and a half since thats how I'd have to pull them from a chest rig, but I'm still faster and more consistent with them facing rear I think.
I think I'm going to go back to AR mags with the bullets rear on my belt. I've been trying bullets forward like a pistol mag for about a year and a half since thats how I'd have to pull them from a chest rig, but I'm still faster and more consistent with them facing rear I think.
That is pretty common.
Magazine orientation. If additional magazines are carried they should be oriented so that they are indexed properly for reloading.
Support Side Carry – magazines should be carried with bullets oriented to the rear. This enables the shooter to acquire a ‘beer can’ grip on the magazine.
Chest-mount Carry – magazines should be carried with bullets oriented to the strong side. This enables the shooter to get a more traditional index where the index finger runs down the front of the magazine and the palm is on the bottom of the magazine.
That is pretty common.
Magazine orientation. If additional magazines are carried they should be oriented so that they are indexed properly for reloading.
Support Side Carry – magazines should be carried with bullets oriented to the rear. This enables the shooter to acquire a ‘beer can’ grip on the magazine.
Chest-mount Carry – magazines should be carried with bullets oriented to the strong side. This enables the shooter to get a more traditional index where the index finger runs down the front of the magazine and the palm is on the bottom of the magazine.
That’s how I ran it for years. Last summer I tried running rounds forward on the belt for more consistency with pistol mags and the rifle mags on my chest, but I’m still more effective with the beer grip I think.
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nightchief
01-05-18, 15:31
I tried out a friends G17 with RMR on it a couple of days ago. I learned that I'm not driving my G17/19 down off the draw when I shoot with speed. This was evident with the RMR as the dot was nowhere to be seen on the first few draws. After getting comfortable with just how much driving down needs to occur, I found my draw from holster to shot with irons vastly improved. I always thought I was driving down and simply missing the left by pulling the trigger too much, but it appears my shots miss by going high quite a bit off the draw unless I'm really focused, for example in a "dot torture" type drill. Still anticipating the break though. This was very evident when running the ball and dummy drills. More work to do.
militarymoron
01-05-18, 15:50
I tried out a friends G17 with RMR on it a couple of days ago. I learned that I'm not driving my G17/19 down off the draw when I shoot with speed. This was evident with the RMR as the dot was nowhere to be seen on the first few draws. After getting comfortable with just how much driving down needs to occur, I found my draw from holster to shot with irons vastly improved.
So, this is where the argument about grip to bore angle comes into play. Some people say grip angle doesn't matter (since you can always adjust your wrist and train to accommodate any grip angle), but I also believe that not everyone has the same neutral/natural wrist angle. The same grip angle can work fine for some people without the need to adjust the wrist, and some people might have to consciously adjust their angle more. If I close my eyes, draw my Glock and press out towards a target, I find that my front sight is usually high. It has always been the case for me. So, I consciously have to drive my wrists down a bit so the sights will line up. This was most apparent when I started using the RMR on my G17 years ago.
So, when I recently built both G19 and G17 polymer 80 frames with their more 1911-like grip angles, I found that I didn't have to drive the front sight down as much. In other words, the grip angle of the polymer80 frame was closer to my wrists' natural angle. With the G17 RMR slide on the polymer80 frame, I can close my eyes, present, open my eyes, and see the dot immediately without as much correction. Without changing anything except the frame, I'm quicker with the RMR now that I was before.
Yes, through training and repetition, you can accommodate any grip angle. But I believe that the closer the grip angle is to your natural point of aim, the less you'll have to deviate from your neutral position to align the sights, and the easier it'll be to get your sight picture.
nightchief
01-05-18, 16:25
So, when I recently built both G19 and G17 polymer 80 frames with their more 1911-like grip angles, I found that I didn't have to drive the front sight down as much. In other words, the grip angle of the polymer80 frame was closer to my wrists' natural angle. With the G17 RMR slide on the polymer80 frame, I can close my eyes, present, open my eyes, and see the dot immediately without as much correction. Without changing anything except the frame, I'm quicker with the RMR now that I was before.
Once I figured out I was shooting high off the draw, when I would present with the RMR and I could see the dot I would pull the trigger and the shots were hitting steel quite consistently. This was quite "eye opening" for me. What do you think of the Polymer 80 frames as far as a HD/carry platform? Are they reliable using the jig?
militarymoron
01-05-18, 17:43
What do you think of the Polymer 80 frames as far as a HD/carry platform? Are they reliable using the jig?
Time will tell - I've got about 1000 rounds on the G19 so far and about 300 on the G17. No issues (not that I expect any), but I'm sure P80 owners will start posting issues if they come up eventually. Contrary to what P80 recommends, I think that using a drill press with the jig would be better than using a hand drill only with the jig (which is what I did). It's hard to hold the drill perfectly perpendicular so the holes are perfectly lined up and straight. On the plus side, there's no danger of the pins falling out as they're so tight. :)
That honestly I never bother with the G17 anymore. Mine is sentimental.
G19 or 34 (more 19)
A G19 is the only gun I need despite my long hands.
My .45 days are pretty much behind me, but if I go to the woods; I am toting a G20 or a .44 Annerconder(I dont pronounce it that way but everyone else does)
Never enough el prez or DOT torture.
I’d like to own a 44 Annerconder!
Nice gun.
Ed
At 50yds standing, i revisited stance with the AR. Keeping my offhand arm more parallel to the ground reduced sight movement during the shot. I tried tucking the elbow down and it was detrimental to followups.
tigershilone
01-28-18, 01:35
I learned I'm a canter a few months ago. I thought I was pretty good at keeping the gun level with the horizon---nope. Scope bubbles have improved my scores a lot on both bolt and semi rifles. It's amazing how just a little cant throws shots off target.
I'm done with full-power .357 loads from small revolvers.
When I carry my Ruger LCR .357 it's loaded with medium-power .357 mag loads. Golden Sabre 125 gr or Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr.
I hadn't run "real" .357 mag loads from it in months. I had some Hornady 158 gr XTP and 125 gr XTP to try out. Ouch. Firing the 5 rapid fire at 7 yds I would get mixed A and B zone hits with the 158's. All A zone hits with the 125's but both loads hurt. It's actually a concern that if my hands were wet or blood or I didn't have a full grip on the gun it could actually leave me hand in a bad situation.
The medium .357 loads and Rem. 110 gr SJHP loads I use to practice with are much easier on the hand and easier to get hits with. (Although the 110 gr practice loads hit lower and lower the further the range)
No more full-power .357 loads from small revolvers for me.
Shot competition for the first time last weekend. I was already fairly aware of this, but it really drove home the point that I don't focus on my front sight at all when stressed. I spent the entire rest of the day forcing myself to think of nothing else.
The_War_Wagon
02-25-18, 06:21
When my aim sucks, I drop back to .22's, to work out proper trigger control, stance, grip, etc.
I was pushing left with my 1911's lately. NOT, down & left - just, level, but left. TOO firm a grip! Dropped back to my Ruger Mk.III, and worked on gripping the frame, W/O 'crushing' it!
Was also pleasantly impressed with my red dot (Aimpoint) and my .22AR the other day. My eyesight is not the best, but I've done a good job of sighting in my dot. Where IT is, the bullet goes. I'm at an indoor range up here in the frozen tundra presently, so the dedicated .22AR let's me work on all the proper fundamentals during the winter.
Finally figured out why people say the dot is slower than irons until you really learn it. I have probably about 700 rounds behind either a DPP or RMR on a Glock but have never consistently struggled to find the dot off the draw until shooting it in competition for the first time. It got better as the nerves died off but I definitely need more practice.
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I learned that from a low ready, it takes about 1.25s to get a sure A zone hit at 7.5 yds from my DA Beretta PX4 full size 9mm. About 1s if I rush it, sometimes resulting in a lesser hit.
Doing the same drill with a G19 and G27 cut each time by about .25s.
Split times between the Px4 (very good trigger) and G19 (factory lousy but lightish trigger) were the same.
The DA Px4 trigger is "safer" and the SA trigger does lead to better precision over the Glock. But it's also slower to the first shot and the px4 doesn't improve split times for me.
Kinda disappointed. I was hoping the Px4 would be the better house/competition gun. Mag changes are much faster at least. Ah well.
I learned the importance if grip in pistol shooting(again).
I was in a steel shoot and was strugling to hit smaller targets, after the third, i clamped down on my grip and started getting 100% hits on stationary targets.
In pistol drills, speeding up results in pulled shots. Having trouble finding that middle ground speed to build off of. Think I am going to be spending a lot of time on the 5x5 drill to slowly work up in speed.
In pistol drills, speeding up results in pulled shots. Having trouble finding that middle ground speed to build off of. Think I am going to be spending a lot of time on the 5x5 drill to slowly work up in speed.
I noticed that the stupid long, slow feel the reset thing from decades of marksmanship inbreeding was really hurting me when it came to shooting quickly. RB1 helped get rid of that by making me think of fast take up, fast reset, but smooth pull.
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In pistol drills, speeding up results in pulled shots. Having trouble finding that middle ground speed to build off of. Think I am going to be spending a lot of time on the 5x5 drill to slowly work up in speed.
I started dryfiring by “slapping” (pressing quickly, about the same pull as if I were going for .2s splits) the trigger and once the right trigger pull “clicked” (no sight movement-it took days to get it right) and i ingrained it (took a few weeks), my accuracy at speed made huge improvements. I also practice resetting under recoil, even at 25yd bulls, dry fire practice by pulling the finger off the trigger as soon as it breaks.
Once you have that, its just waiting for the sights to get on target, which grip helps.
Good luck.
Edit to add, good trigger manipulation is a perishable skill. If you dont stay on it, you will lose it.
After shooting for 40 years, I still feel I have a lot to learn about the skill. I still learn a bit about teaching from my students.
If you are ever 100% happy with your shooting performance, you aren't trying hard enough.
USPSA practice: learned that I am leaving a lot on the table on close targets. Running an rmr. Problem is a combo of letting trigger control go to shit (i can greatly improve accuracy by adding .1s to the press) and poor grip so i had to re-aquire dot.
I’ve decided to move back to a G19 gen 3 (temporarily, maybe) for carry and competition to re-evaluate objectively my recent choice to move to DA/SA. I’ve been shooting Berettas and Sigs exclusively for maybe a year now, maybe 10,000rnds. I’ve had the G19 for two or three weeks. About 600rnds in, focusing mainly on accuracy and fundamentals. Accuracy wise, I already shoot the G19 as well as a M9A1 on Dot Torture. I shoot it better than the PX4 compact that I’ve been carrying, again on Dot Torture. The G19 has Triji HD’s, otherwise stock. The Berettas have lighter hammer springs and red paint on the front sights.
Very interesting. I have not yet put the Glock on the timer or shot any matches. I anticipate being faster with the M9A1. I’ll probably stick with the hammer guns because putting a Glock in a IWB holster creeps me out. Maybe I’ll consider a striker gun with a safety; not sure yet. But its been an interesting and surprising experiment, thus far, so I’m keeping an open mind. The G19 is a very good gun, for sure.
RLTW
I’ve decided to move back to a G19 gen 3 (temporarily, maybe) for carry and competition to re-evaluate objectively my recent choice to move to DA/SA. I’ve been shooting Berettas and Sigs exclusively for maybe a year now, maybe 10,000rnds. I’ve had the G19 for two or three weeks. About 600rnds in, focusing mainly on accuracy and fundamentals. Accuracy wise, I already shoot the G19 as well as a M9A1 on Dot Torture. I shoot it better than the PX4 compact that I’ve been carrying, again on Dot Torture. The G19 has Triji HD’s, otherwise stock. The Berettas have lighter hammer springs and red paint on the front sights.
Very interesting. I have not yet put the Glock on the timer or shot any matches. I anticipate being faster with the M9A1. I’ll probably stick with the hammer guns because putting a Glock in a IWB holster creeps me out. Maybe I’ll consider a striker gun with a safety; not sure yet. But its been an interesting and surprising experiment, thus far, so I’m keeping an open mind. The G19 is a very good gun, for sure.
RLTW
You could always check out the Striker Control Device or the Gadget. I think it’s the same thing, just different names.
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SeriousStudent
07-06-18, 18:15
You could always check out the Striker Control Device or the Gadget. I think it’s the same thing, just different names.
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Agreed, I am a big fan of the Gadget on a Glock. I'd have to open up the safe and count how many, but all of my Glocks have one.
Great work by Todd Green and Tom Jones creating that doodad and bringing it to market.
Yeah, I would certainly get a Gadget if I were carrying a Glock permanently. I can’t believe it took so long for such a device to come to market.
I have a caveat for the Dot Torture notes from earlier. After my last post, I went to the range and pushed my Dot Torture targets out further. My scores were pretty disappointing. Not on par with a M9A1. About what I do with compact DA/SA guns. Maybe sight radius was coming into play. Perhaps I was just having a bad day; more research required. I’m going to continue working on fundamentals until I get about a 1,000 rounds in, then pull out the timer for the next 1,000. I have friends that do very strong work with G22/23/17/19 pistols. Maybe I just need to get my $£!¥ together and elevate my standards.
Yeah, I would certainly get a Gadget if I were carrying a Glock permanently. I can’t believe it took so long for such a device to come to market.
I have a caveat for the Dot Torture notes from earlier. After my last post, I went to the range and pushed my Dot Torture targets out further. My scores were pretty disappointing. Not on par with a M9A1. About what I do with compact DA/SA guns. Maybe sight radius was coming into play. Perhaps I was just having a bad day; more research required. I’m going to continue working on fundamentals until I get about a 1,000 rounds in, then pull out the timer for the next 1,000. I have friends that do very strong work with G22/23/17/19 pistols. Maybe I just need to get my $£!¥ together and elevate my standards.
One thing that helped me was to buy a ny trigger to train with in dry fire.
When i hit the range with the stock trigger, i blow through it (in a good way).
I dont use it all the time, but to get through plateaus. When you can smash a NY trigger and not move the sights, a stock trigger should break clean with no sight movement without thought.
Good luck.
Realized how fun .22 rifles can be, especially at an indoor range. Buddies and I brought all our toys (Pistols, Rifles, Suppressors) the indoor range and finished out playing battleship with a single shot 22 with peep sights at 25 yards. More fun than the rest of the range trip as it refocused the fundamentals to make good hits.
Dr. Bullseye
07-07-18, 12:13
After watching this video of Kurds vs. Turks https://www.funker530.com/gopro-close-quarters-ambush-sc1/
I realize how important movement and cover are in self defense.
After watching this video of Kurds vs. Turks https://www.funker530.com/gopro-close-quarters-ambush-sc1/
I realize how important movement and cover are in self defense.
Not at all what this thread is about, but those guys got ****ed up.
I've found that in trying to improve my pistol shooting, just firing 50 to 100 rounds every week/every other week or so is more helpful and has helped me improve more than firing several hundred rounds in a session.
I enjoy shooting pistol much less than I enjoy shooting rifle (Partly because I'm not as good with a handgun I'm sure) and limiting my round count during pistol practice prevents me from getting burnt out or frustrated.
P2Vaircrewman
07-25-18, 07:42
I love shooting pistols but find it sometimes frustrating. I find I have a hard time keeping shots all inside the 5-1/4" 9 ring on a full size FBI silhouette target at 10 yards but can run a plate rack with 6 " plates at the same distance with no problem. I guess it could be the old aim small, shoot small at work.
I've found that in trying to improve my pistol shooting, just firing 50 to 100 rounds every week/every other week or so is more helpful and has helped me improve more than firing several hundred rounds in a session.
I enjoy shooting pistol much less than I enjoy shooting rifle (Partly because I'm not as good with a handgun I'm sure) and limiting my round count during pistol practice prevents me from getting burnt out or frustrated.
I just started shooting handguns and had no idea how much I sucked with them. I absolutely would not use one for HD anytime soon after seeing my pistol shooting (lack of) skills.
As soon as I pick up one of my AR’s though, consistent shots on target one after another. Handgun at 10 yards? Barely on paper! Definitely need to practice and I think I will do so as you are. Trying to shoot more often with less rounds each visit rather than once a month with a lot of ammo used.
I've found that in trying to improve my pistol shooting, just firing 50 to 100 rounds every week/every other week or so is more helpful and has helped me improve more than firing several hundred rounds in a session.
I enjoy shooting pistol much less than I enjoy shooting rifle (Partly because I'm not as good with a handgun I'm sure) and limiting my round count during pistol practice prevents me from getting burnt out or frustrated.
Agreed
I’ve been doing intense 150rd practice once or twice a week, half hour each time, and have made big improvemnts as well.
I also found my movemnt was shit and started practicing sprints and incorporating into my shooting routine.
Theres a GM i follow on IG (Make Ready) and he was talking about grip, focusing on locking the bottom(pinky) of the wrist and it really helped tracking the rmr and even getting sight on target from the draw more consistent.
Today, I learned that I have a very strong preference for finger grooves on a G19.
I realized that I need to do a lot more shooting in full kit. I can wear it for hours without much issue but the fine motor skills go out the window quickly.
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While doing some tweaking of my sling to accomodate the simple 2 things I want a sling to do, with enough leeway for seasonal layers, I did some snaps on objects with the dot & happened to also alight on a small mirror over a dresser. Canting the gun. Big deal in that carbine's role? Not really, but realized it was an issue in my "discussion" with my ACOG on another gun in getting full field-of-view. Knowing that, a few degrees change made all the difference in the world. Now to ingrain it through repetition.
Also this fine post.
I realized that I need to do a lot more shooting in full kit. I can wear it for hours without much issue but the fine motor skills go out the window quickly.Walking the property with a simple belt with a couple things on it is one thing; full kit & movement w/shooting will reveal any tweaks needed on the kit, as well as the adjustable nut behind the trigger. The latter is only fixed through me doing the practice; it comes no other way.
I'm not rich enough to have nice hunting rifles and nice precision rigs so mine pull double duty. Love my tikka ctr for deer and my SPR comes out for coyote, etc.
I made a decision a while back to start using all my gear more. I don't care if some of it is over kill. It's fun and that's why I use it.
nightchief
09-15-18, 06:12
I recently put an RMR on my G19. Ameriglo suppressor sights were also added for co-witness. I learned a couple of things:
1) The RMR greatly improved my accuracy and reminded me that my presentation is often high when pressing out or drawing.
2) and this one is a bigger deal. I shut the RMR off to shoot with the irons and found the all black irons to be easier (FOR ME) to shoot than front sights with dots/tritium/fiber optic. It was interesting to find that all black front sights were easier for me to be accurate with. I shot 2 different dot drills I had been struggling with and they were much easier.
Shot a .45 with irons instead of the Roland Special I've been shooting exclusively for over a year and learned that I've gotten very lazy managing recoil and focusing on the sight instead of target.
Shot a .45 with irons instead of the Roland Special I've been shooting exclusively for over a year and learned that I've gotten very lazy managing recoil and focusing on the sight instead of target.
I had the exact same experience.
nightchief
02-01-19, 10:53
I had the exact same experience.
I have found my focus on the front sight post has improved after shooting an RDS equipped pistol, regardless of caliber. I noticed some "looseness" on the recoil management of my 1911 though.
Wake and ggammell, are you shooting .45 in a Glock, 1911 or something else?
Chuck Pressburg's discussing the change from 1911 to Glock on his Patreon page. Interesting issues, with the change in caliber and trigger movement.
I have found my focus on the front sight post has improved after shooting an RDS equipped pistol, regardless of caliber. I noticed some "looseness" on the recoil management of my 1911 though.
Wake and ggammell, are you shooting .45 in a Glock, 1911 or something else?
Chuck Pressburg's discussing the change from 1911 to Glock on his Patreon page. Interesting issues, with the change in caliber and trigger movement.
That post was based on my 1911 in .45 and Roland Special, so comp'd G19. I've seen it go both ways though. When I first transitioned over, I saw it drastically improve my iron shooting, now after over a year with nothing but the dot, I stay threat-focused the entire time and my groups show it. This was also the first time that I've really noticed a difference in proficiency with platforms. Prior to the last 1-1.5 years, I'd shoot my 1911 almost as often as my G19, though not for nearly as many rounds. Regardless of the round count, it seems that at least a few rounds to stay familiar used to make a difference because I used my new SA RO Elite 9mm in a class on Thursday and felt significantly slower and more clumsy than with my RS. I'm sure it goes both ways though - I've lost some familiarity with the 1911 platform and iron sight shooting but gained it with my RS.
Was firing a soft-shooting .45 (S&W full size 2.0) while holding a flashlight and learned a couple things.
1st, it's a little slower than with a 9mm.
2nd, it's much easier with a low-recoiling gun like a Beretta Cheetah or Vz61.
3rd, if this is your plan, use a gun that holds more rounds because it's not easy to reload a pistol while holding a light. (I already knew this)
A WML and hand held light on a lanyard is the best plan for using a pistol in the dark. (Just a reminder)
Was firing a soft-shooting .45 (S&W full size 2.0) while holding a flashlight and learned a couple things.
1st, it's a little slower than with a 9mm.
2nd, it's much easier with a low-recoiling gun like a Beretta Cheetah or Vz61.
3rd, if this is your plan, use a gun that holds more rounds because it's not easy to reload a pistol while holding a light. (I already knew this)
A WML and hand held light on a lanyard is the best plan for using a pistol in the dark. (Just a reminder)
There’s a reason I don’t own any pistols without rails. Though I should practice this at some point just in case an X300U actually goes down.
I just realized how much I prefer red fiber optic sights. I’ve used green for the past few years on both my 1911 and M&P because our eyes tend to see green better. Not sure why, but the red FO on my new 1911 seems far brighter than either of the green ones I had been using.
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3rd, if this is your plan, use a gun that holds more rounds because it's not easy to reload a pistol while holding a light. (I already knew this)
A WML and hand held light on a lanyard is the best plan for using a pistol in the dark. (Just a reminder)
Depending on how big your light is, and where it's been :rolleyes: there are several options:
1) clamp it under your arm, in your armpit;
2) place it on your shoulder, shrug and hold it between your neck and shoulder;
3) place it in your mouth like a cigar;
4) back pocket (many LEO's can't access front pockets quickly with duty gear on)
Lanyard and ligature are both spelled with 'L' so I would kind of shy away from lanyards.
Depending on how big your light is, and where it's been :rolleyes: there are several options:
1) clamp it under your arm, in your armpit;
2) place it on your shoulder, shrug and hold it between your neck and shoulder;
3) place it in your mouth like a cigar;
4) back pocket (many LEO's can't access front pockets quickly with duty gear on)
Lanyard and ligature are both spelled with 'L' so I would kind of shy away from lanyards.
Thanks. The mouth and pocket were the only other ideas I'd thought of. I like the mouth option because it works when nekkid, too.
Thanks. The mouth and pocket were the only other ideas I'd thought of. I like the mouth option because it works when nekkid, too.
So do the armpit and neck/shoulder, you budding nudist, you. :cool:
So do the armpit and neck/shoulder, you budding nudist, you. :cool:
This is true! (Except the nudist part. Clothes are great until it's really hot)
nightchief
03-11-19, 23:29
I had the opportunity (in what seems to be rare in Texas, as the ranges usually close) to shoot in the rain Sunday...It was about 48 degrees with a 5 to 8 mph wind.
1) I had both an EOTech EXPS and Aimpoint Micro T2. I usually give the nod to the EOTech as the reticle is so easy and fast to acquire targets with, however, my EOTech was more hampered by water droplets than the Aimpoint. We were running a version of Garand Thumb's "MARSOC Drill" and at 60 yards on a C Zone steel target with most of the paint gone, the target was hard to see with all the water interference. The Aimpoint was easier to use in this situation.
2) I had trouble with Pmags dropping freely from a Colt 6920 once everything was wet. I've never had an issue with Pmags in the 6920 when dry. They would release after hitting the mag release button, but I had to strip them from the magwell. GI (DH and C Products mags) dropped freely. I tried the wet Pmags with a Sionics rifle and no issue. Likewise, my Seekins lower with a porn star sized magwell worked ok too.
3) The RMR on my G19 was usable in the rain. I was still able to hit the same C Zone steel at 50ish yards. I have treated the RMR with Catcrap, and perhaps that was the difference between my good experience with the RMR and the less than desirable experience with the EOTech.
This was a great opportunity to see which kit and gear works and doesn't in a wet environment.
grizzlyblake
03-11-19, 23:50
Today, I learned that I have a very strong preference for finger grooves on a G19.
Same here. Especially when doing quick draws from concealment. I get a much faster positive grip with Gen 4 finger grooves compared to a slick Gen 5 19.
I had the opportunity (in what seems to be rare in Texas, as the ranges usually close) to shoot in the rain Sunday...It was about 48 degrees with a 5 to 8 mph wind.
1) I had both an EOTech EXPS and Aimpoint Micro T2. I usually give the nod to the EOTech as the reticle is so easy and fast to acquire targets with, however, my EOTech was more hampered by water droplets than the Aimpoint. We were running a version of Garand Thumb's "MARSOC Drill" and at 60 yards on a C Zone steel target with most of the paint gone, the target was hard to see with all the water interference. The Aimpoint was easier to use in this situation.
2) I had trouble with Pmags dropping freely from a Colt 6920 once everything was wet. I've never had an issue with Pmags in the 6920 when dry. They would release after hitting the mag release button, but I had to strip them from the magwell. GI (DH and C Products mags) dropped freely. I tried the wet Pmags with a Sionics rifle and no issue. Likewise, my Seekins lower with a porn star sized magwell worked ok too.
3) The RMR on my G19 was usable in the rain. I was still able to hit the same C Zone steel at 50ish yards. I have treated the RMR with Catcrap, and perhaps that was the difference between my good experience with the RMR and the less than desirable experience with the EOTech.
This was a great opportunity to see which kit and gear works and doesn't in a wet environment.
Would not have guessed that on the PMAGs. What generation?
nightchief
03-12-19, 01:31
Would not have guessed that on the PMAGs. What generation?
Gen 2 and 3. Friend I was shooting with has an LMT MARS lower and it was having similar trouble.
everready73
03-12-19, 08:18
I had the opportunity (in what seems to be rare in Texas, as the ranges usually close) to shoot in the rain Sunday...It was about 48 degrees with a 5 to 8 mph wind.
1) I had both an EOTech EXPS and Aimpoint Micro T2. I usually give the nod to the EOTech as the reticle is so easy and fast to acquire targets with, however, my EOTech was more hampered by water droplets than the Aimpoint. We were running a version of Garand Thumb's "MARSOC Drill" and at 60 yards on a C Zone steel target with most of the paint gone, the target was hard to see with all the water interference. The Aimpoint was easier to use in this situation.
2) I had trouble with Pmags dropping freely from a Colt 6920 once everything was wet. I've never had an issue with Pmags in the 6920 when dry. They would release after hitting the mag release button, but I had to strip them from the magwell. GI (DH and C Products mags) dropped freely. I tried the wet Pmags with a Sionics rifle and no issue. Likewise, my Seekins lower with a porn star sized magwell worked ok too.
3) The RMR on my G19 was usable in the rain. I was still able to hit the same C Zone steel at 50ish yards. I have treated the RMR with Catcrap, and perhaps that was the difference between my good experience with the RMR and the less than desirable experience with the EOTech.
This was a great opportunity to see which kit and gear works and doesn't in a wet environment.
I have been doing some research on a RDS to mount to a pistol. The RMR gets the most favorable feedback for duty/all weather use. I am looking into the DPP as well and reports are that it is affected by rain much more so than the RMR.
I have been doing some research on a RDS to mount to a pistol. The RMR gets the most favorable feedback for duty/all weather use. I am looking into the DPP as well and reports are that it is affected by rain much more so than the RMR.
Ive used my rmr in rain plenty of times... the sight picture is messy, but I just ignored it and was able to keep10 shots in the 8 ring at 25yds. Most in the black (i think the score was >90). I was not taking my time and just making sure it was usable.
Back to OP- I found out I need to work on accuracy at speed closer than 25.
4x2 targets at 7yds was take longer on the followup than they should.
Dr. Bullseye
03-12-19, 13:35
You guys are going to hate this post but I just can't hold back. It is just amazing to me to see how many threads de-evolve into threads about P-mag malfunctions.
nightchief
03-12-19, 14:12
You guys are going to hate this post but I just can't hold back. It is just amazing to me to see how many threads de-evolve into threads about P-mag malfunctions.
Why hate your post? It's a legit concern in my 6920 if its wet and I'm using Pmags. I don't think its 'devolving" into a PMag malfunction thread though.
I also haven't cleaned the rifle in over 2K rounds and the pmags have never been cleaned (these are my range use pmags, so they get a lot of abuse), and I question if the carbon build up in the magwell in combination with it being wet is a factor. This only happened with the 6920 and my friends LMT receiver, not the Sionics or Seekins receivers.
WickedWillis
03-12-19, 14:45
You guys are going to hate this post but I just can't hold back. It is just amazing to me to see how many threads de-evolve into threads about P-mag malfunctions.
Gen 3's do not play well with my Seekins, or Daniel Defense lowers either for some reason. They run great in my Tavor.
Crazy. Gen M3s are the only ones that play well in my Noveske. On pistol RDS, my experience with the DPP and water is far worse than my RMR in heavy, continuous rain. That was the final straw on the DPP for me, I’ll use RMRs all day now.
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Deadsquiggles
06-07-19, 13:33
I learn, every time, that I need to go more often. My unsupported rifle shooting is atrocious at times. And I still have the occasional flinch when running my handguns.
Shot pistol at 25yd B8s for the first time today. It sucked about as bad as I expected. It’s been a few months since I’ve shot pistol and I am really shitty about dry firing so it shows. Gun was a Roland Special, RMR zero’d for 124gr +P Gold Dots at 15. “Unknown” refers to the ammo, most likely it was Freedom 115 gr.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/5870ef49c6a6e54b0e0d88a49925cbe2.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/2bd0d5fa7e7cd13673266f33d2fa2040.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/d4a0599680eedb4f7864aa1ed246f345.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/3e2fffdce64d041035ddc203358cc312.jpg
The ten yard targets made my ego feel a little better until I got lazy after deciding it was time to go.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/d8e141c64f6c356199897d9e081edf2d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/f91691fb6ef0806b257edc7e749ba26c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/661af609ddb713b65d76a965900ac0a7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190707/f8e1a55b2f48f615cc3b60993e5c4d5b.jpg
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nightchief
07-07-19, 17:20
Why do you think you're all over the place at 25 yards? For me, using a similar pistol, when I "pull" a shot its usually low and sometime left (I'm right handed), visits to Flinchville. You're shots outside the black look different, so it seems less likely to be the flichies. What's your thoughts on the misses?
THis is one of my favorite threads, and I really appreciate those who shoot and share, regardless of of the result.
Why do you think you're all over the place at 25 yards? For me, using a similar pistol, when I "pull" a shot its usually low and sometime left (I'm right handed), visits to Flinchville. You're shots outside the black look different, so it seems less likely to be the flichies. What's your thoughts on the misses?
THis is one of my favorite threads, and I really appreciate those who shoot and share, regardless of of the result.
Squeezing the trigger when the sights were not aligned and/or on target. Only add pull pressure on the trigger when your sights are aligned and on target give you hits 100%. Easier said than done, but with practice and discipline very easy to accomplish slowly and with repetition speed comes as well. It's why dry fire practice is so critical, repetition is the key to mastery.
Why do you think you're all over the place at 25 yards? For me, using a similar pistol, when I "pull" a shot its usually low and sometime left (I'm right handed), visits to Flinchville. You're shots outside the black look different, so it seems less likely to be the flichies. What's your thoughts on the misses?
THis is one of my favorite threads, and I really appreciate those who shoot and share, regardless of of the result.
Squeezing the trigger when the sights were not aligned and/or on target. Only add pull pressure on the trigger when your sights are aligned and on target give you hits 100%. Easier said than done, but with practice and discipline very easy to accomplish slowly and with repetition speed comes as well. It's why dry fire practice is so critical, repetition is the key to mastery.
I was actually thinking about that a good bit when looking at these targets and agree. Obviously I have misses attributable to flinchville but those are more apparent when I'm shooting faster. For bullseye/slow fire stuff, I have a really weird tendency to maintain a low POA. My guess is that its due to a natural desire to want to see, which means that if something is in front of my face, I'm fighting the subconscious decision to lower that thing so I can see better, regardless of whether its a clean target or not. Even with an RDS, my POA usually stays low and I have to work to bring the gun up on target. I was actually paying attention to it while shooting and it almost felt as if holding low was like being in my natural point of aim, and then I had to raise my hands to an uncomfortable height to correct my POA before firing. I felt less comfortable, which means that my hands are less steady and my wobble zone increases. But I have a really bad habit of getting impatient and just sending it to see where the shot ends up, which is a part of the reason that I signed up for Chuck's no fail pistol and started working at 25. Today I was deliberately trying to come off the trigger if I knew the dot wasn't on target so I could reacquire, but that bad habit is definitely ingrained in there and will take some work to get rid of.
This is less of a problem when I shoot for time and why I hate shooting slow fire, but I know that if I can tighten up the deliberately aimed groups, my faster shots will only improve as well. Its weird to think about though, because it seems like you should be able to just put the dot on the target and keep it there.
nightchief
07-08-19, 20:14
I was out today and shot some 25 yard B-8's Freestyle and Strong Hand with a G19 w/ RDS, before the sky opened up on me and drenched everything I had at the range. Rain, in July, in Texas...c'mon!!! Its just supposed to be f'ing hot now, not raining on my range day. Lightning kept me from continuing, but still got in a couple of hours of solid practice.
57958
First B-8 Freestyle was just OK, some definite flinching and trigger control nonsense going on.
57959
Second B-8 is the best score I've gotten on a 2 hand 25 yd slow fire target. I was listening to Chuck Pressburg's Q&A yesterday and his discussion of shooting the B-8 like its one shot, the best shot you've ever taken, 10 times was a great explanation and I focused on this concept on this B-8, and the 3rd which I shot Strong Hand only...
57960
Notice the "flinchie" the made the score a low 90's instead of better.
57961
Last B-8 strong hand and my concentration waned, which is obvious as I shot all over the place.
Grip, concentration, proper take-up of the trigger before firing and proper gaps between shots was the lesson today.
Coal Dragger
07-08-19, 22:45
Well crap, I just looked for some B-8's and I'm out of them again. Range day tomorrow hopefully, Lazy Wolf Guns flat faced trigger installed in my ACRO'd VP9 and I think I have it dialed in for over travel adjustment, I also gently polished the disconnector bar that the trigger bar rides on to make it smooth and free of any tool marks. Trigger now has the same take up feel as a Geissele two stage, and a very similar break with not even a hint of over travel. The red dot does not budge when the trigger releases the striker, and I've been doing dry fire repetitions since I installed it this afternoon.
Just need to find some damn targets, I guess I can use rifle zeroing targets again but the inside of the box is a bit smaller than the black on a B8 and is square, and has no scoring rings.
Coal Dragger
07-12-19, 17:58
Worked on 25 yard standing two handed slow fire today with the VP9 long slide and ACRO P-1, my first session with the new Lazy Wolf Guns flat faced trigger with over travel adjustment. Sadly I couldn't find any B8's so instead had to resort to 8' diameter Shoot-N'-See targets. For comparison the B8 target has an 8 ring that is 8" in diameter, the 9 ring is 5.5" diameter, the 10 ring is 3.75" diameter, and the X ring is 1.75" diameter; the Shoot-N'-See I am using as a substitute also has a nominal 8" diameter for the 7 ring, a 5.75" 8 ring, a 4.0" 9 ring, and a 2.5" 10 ring, with no real X ring to speak of aside from a .75" red colored dot in the center.
First string of 5 rounds:
https://i.imgur.com/cCBu9lr.jpg
Second string of 5 rounds:
https://i.imgur.com/jElomgP.jpg
Third string of 5 rounds (note sight adjustment of left windage made before firing):
https://i.imgur.com/LzBjZkM.jpg
Last string of 5 rounds:
https://i.imgur.com/umbTebx.jpg
Range conditions today: 92 F, very sunny, light breeze. Range was not too busy at first but after my first 15 rounds at 25 yards a bunch of other shooters showed up making documentation of each 5 rounds string of slow fire impractical.
https://i.imgur.com/GdJv3wU.jpg
At the end I did run a B27 out to 50 yards to just to verify where the dot was looking relative to round impacts, shot 5 rounds standing holding high thoracic cavity. At this point I was clearly annoying all of the dudes who wanted to blaze away at 5 yards, so I called it a day.
https://i.imgur.com/nJ5XQkX.jpg
I need to get some more B8's.
Take aways from today's session:
Red dot sights make distance shooting with a pistol easier. A trigger with virtually no over travel makes consistent shooting a lot easier. My experience shooting competitive bullseye is paying dividends on this type of shooting.
I'm still having mixed results presenting the pistol to the target and getting the dot in the window, or over driving the gun to target and having the dot bouncing all around. I need a lot more work here. Did some Bill Drills the other day and the dot is making it pretty clear than my draw and presentation are hot garbage.
Well crap, I just looked for some B-8's and I'm out of them again.
Just need to find some damn targets, I guess I can use rifle zeroing targets again but the inside of the box is a bit smaller than the black on a B8 and is square, and has no scoring rings.
B8s sized for regular paper
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0731/4357/files/Tap_Rack_B-8.pdf?1331687921559727703
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Coal Dragger
07-12-19, 18:33
Thanks!
Dr. Bullseye
07-12-19, 23:44
I watched a video by Karl Erickson (Tactical Response) where he said he with irons he uses the big peep aperture. I asked him in response section how far away that was good for. He replied 220 yards. I ran a test and out to 100 and found the larger peer, ghost ring, was faster and just as accurate even at the 100 yard mark. This was surprising to me.
For consistent groups- biggest factor for me was consistent trigger press. I tried pinning the trigger and it sucked.
I started doing deliberate full presses and “resetting during recoil”, and me groups got much more consistent.
It also took time for me to get used to it- just spending time at that distance helps.
Everything needs to be the same each shot. Grip pressure, grip, trigger press, reset, sight picture, etc
What I learned is that after about 600 rounds in 100 degree heat, I don't really GAF where my front sight is when the shot breaks.
Unfortunately, I learned this on the plate rack at a GSSF match yesterday.
Ahh, it's only money.
That's good shooting, Coal Dragger!
Kind of dumb, but never realized how important a simple shot timer is. I don't shoot competitively so never used one. After having it though, it was incredible getting that feedback and having an objective way to measure performance. I don't think one single thing has improved my shooting more than that. I like the little bit of stress it adds. Also really highlights stuff in desperate need of attention...in my case mag changes were abysmally slow. I hadn't really considered that as being something I did really badly until I measured it. Also highlighted a bad habit of wanting to move my feet transitioning targets (that are fairly close to each other) instead of just shifting my hips which showed up in splits. Also awesome for highlighting issues that result from a grip that needs some work. Until seeing the time loss at 3rd or 4th target & figuring out that was where I was wanting to "milk" my grip a bit, i thought it was pretty good. Just nice to do different drills & get that instant feedback, dissect where the lost time going, and know what needs the most attention. Since I mostly shoot alone, wish I would have thought to get one years ago.....
ffhounddog
07-23-19, 13:23
Glock 43x. Why, I have three of them now.
WickedWillis
07-23-19, 15:31
Glock 43x. Why, I have three of them now.
So you learned what?
The Beretta M81FS I carry really takes extra effort and practice to get good A zone hits at 25 yds.
I think the biggest reason is the small sights and short sight radius.
When I shoot nearly any larger pistol at 20-25 yd A-zone hits go way up along with speed.
I love the little Beretta but it's really more of a 15 yd pistol without considerable, recent practice. It's taken about 4 years for me to realize this, or maybe, admit it to myself.
I don’t know if I’ve just gotten worse or if I’ve always been this bad at it, but I really suck at wanting to see my target. Even when it’s clean, my eye is just drawn to whatever the target is and I really have to force my sights higher (I hold them low so that I can see) and focus on the front sight. Obviously optics very much help compensate for this habit.
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I don’t know if I’ve just gotten worse or if I’ve always been this bad at it, but I really suck at wanting to see my target. Even when it’s clean, my eye is just drawn to whatever the target is and I really have to force my sights higher (I hold them low so that I can see) and focus on the front sight. Obviously optics very much help compensate for this habit.
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I have several steel targets hanging around my property in the wooded area along the creek bed that I regularly shoot. When I had them painted white I found myself looking at the target to see the hits instead me watching my front sight. So I painted them camouflage with khaki and OD green. This 1. Made the targets more realistic and 2. Kept me from looking for the hits and just being satisfied with the ring while concentrating on my front sight. I go forward later to look at the hits.
I didn't learn this today but I have come to the conclusion that I really need to fix my natural POA and sight alignment with pistol.
I am heavily left eye dominant and right handed. When I naturally point the sights should look like ... |--|--|
instead they look like |-|---| and my shots go left. i move the sights into alignment but I think in the course of pulling the trigger they become naturally misaligned again.
I'm trying to develop a new natural grip with my right hand which helps but ti also puts my index finger more forward and tends to snag on the front of the trigger guard now.
I was taught to align the gun with the forearm bone. But I need to have the back strap off on an angle sort of pressing into that meaty part of my hand to get a natural POA that has the sights correctly aligned when I raise the gun. I guess I'll get used to it but not sure what else to do.
everready73
08-21-19, 09:16
I didn't learn this today but I have come to the conclusion that I really need to fix my natural POA and sight alignment with pistol.
I am heavily left eye dominant and right handed. When I naturally point the sights should look like ... |--|--|
instead they look like |-|---| and my shots go left. i move the sights into alignment but I think in the course of pulling the trigger they become naturally misaligned again.
I'm trying to develop a new natural grip with my right hand which helps but ti also puts my index finger more forward and tends to snag on the front of the trigger guard now.
I was taught to align the gun with the forearm bone. But I need to have the back strap off on an angle sort of pressing into that meaty part of my hand to get a natural POA that has the sights correctly aligned when I raise the gun. I guess I'll get used to it but not sure what else to do.
I am left eye dominant/right handed. I have found just slanting my head a bit to the right works best for me. I dont have any issues lining up the sites doing it that way
I am left eye dominant/right handed. I have found just slanting my head a bit to the right works best for me. I dont have any issues lining up the sites doing it that way
When you hold the gun in your right hand adn extend it out, if you look straight down on it, does the barrel run in straight line with your forearm. Or is the gun or wrist forming a line of it's own?
I didn't learn this today but I have come to the conclusion that I really need to fix my natural POA and sight alignment with pistol.
I am heavily left eye dominant and right handed. When I naturally point the sights should look like ... |--|--|
instead they look like |-|---| and my shots go left. i move the sights into alignment but I think in the course of pulling the trigger they become naturally misaligned again.
I'm trying to develop a new natural grip with my right hand which helps but ti also puts my index finger more forward and tends to snag on the front of the trigger guard now.
I was taught to align the gun with the forearm bone. But I need to have the back strap off on an angle sort of pressing into that meaty part of my hand to get a natural POA that has the sights correctly aligned when I raise the gun. I guess I'll get used to it but not sure what else to do.
Try this - come to a compressed ready with your muzzle slightly elevated - as you press out you should see the front sight and it should drop into the rear sight notch - your brain knows what it wants.
The pistol should be indexed under your dominant eye, and with your head square into the 'threat' your strong wrist will be slightly bent to the outside, or right if you are right handed. How much it is bent will be a result of a combiation of things - your shoulder width, and arm length are the primary drivers.
As a practical matter, your strong hand wrist is bent the same amount as your support arm wrist would be IF you weren't cross dominant. If you get what I'm saying, consider what you expect your support arm to do - I rotate my thumb forward and my fingers downward to lock up as I establish grip - somehow it works. All you are asking your strong wrist to do is what most of us ask our support wrist to do PLUS press the trigger.
Taken in that context it isn't that daunting of a task.
I would work that that press until the front sight drops into the notch. I would also refine my draw by moving my support hand contact point further to the left on my chest (assuming you are right-handed). This will result in your driving the pistol (with the muzzle down range) across your chest with the hands meeting under your dominant (left?) eye.
The reason that I would try this is because, yep you could turn your head to look out of the side of your eye orbit, BUT there are a whole bunch of experts who say that under extreme stress our eyes lock in our orbits, we get tunnel vision and so on.
Likewise NPO means different things in different situations - you need to be able to draw so your bore is located in front of your dominant eye, and the barrel is aligned along the horizontal axis from that eye.
Rep it in front of the mirror so you can get that alignment.
Other options are, as mentioned turning your head slightly - which may not be something you are able to do under survival stress; or, closing your dominant (left) eye and sighting out of your right eye, again, something you may not be able to do under extreme stress.
For your consideration.
WickedWillis
08-23-19, 20:39
At my last range trip last weekend, I learned very quickly that I had over-estimated my handgun skills. I printed off a drill from T.Rex arms, and proceeded to butcher the ever-living hell out of it. I also learned that as much as I love them, at speed+distance, the Trijicon HD's are hard to make hits on non-large steel targets.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595995797_e0c6dff6d9_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3gbuv)20190817_150936 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3gbuv) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
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Then I thought; Even though I have very little training on my RMR'd 19, I bet you at range my target will be cleaner, and before I ran out of ammo, I was wrong again.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595859871_83d10abb2d_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X)20190817_153546 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
All this really did was make me take a long look at myself, and realize that I need to do this more, and I need to do this better. I am going to do this drill at least twice every range trip from here on in, and see if I can tighten things up.
For your consideration.
That makes a lot of sense. I don't think I have a good 'system' from holster to shot break. I also may have gotten too wrapped up in my wrist angles simply in unfounded reasons. the asking no more from the left than right makes a lot of sense. I've known or felt that I absolutely do need to index in front of that left eye if possible and I do prefer to simply stand pretty much squared up.
I'll practice this. Appreciate the visuals. Our range just had the short pistol range shut down so the shortest range is 25 yrds. So I need to get my act together. Oh and yes I am a 'north paw' and I could understand exactly what you were saying.
I can believe that about the eyes locking up. If you watch someone that thinks they may be going to drown or about to be attacked by a dog. If you find yourself in the unusual situation of looking them in the eyes at the time, they are wide eyed and dead ahead like their brain is on overdrive trying to figure which part to of the body to operate.
I have to backpedal a bit on some of the stuff I've said around here about LPVOs vs red dots. I've run drills before without noticeable issue, but did a course last night that included the VTAC 1-5, chaos, triple threat, and other multiple target drills. I've known for a while that I have bad habit of transitioning through the optic, don't know where I picked it up, but its something I had been working on. Its been a while, so I sucked at it and the LPVO only made it worse. That being said, I switched to my backup gun with EOTech and it was barely any better. I expected more of a difference, which is good because it means that the LPVO wasn't as much of a hindrance as I expected, but it did prove that they're not equal and I suck so its something that needs more work.
I have to backpedal a bit on some of the stuff I've said around here about LPVOs vs red dots. I've run drills before without noticeable issue, but did a course last night that included the VTAC 1-5, chaos, triple threat, and other multiple target drills. I've known for a while that I have bad habit of transitioning through the optic, don't know where I picked it up, but its something I had been working on. Its been a while, so I sucked at it and the LPVO only made it worse. That being said, I switched to my backup gun with EOTech and it was barely any better. I expected more of a difference, which is good because it means that the LPVO wasn't as much of a hindrance as I expected, but it did prove that they're not equal and I suck so its something that needs more work.
I caught myself doing this dry-fire 2 nights ago.
Forcing my eyes to shift to the next target and follow with the gun helped.
For me, this is instinctive with pistols, but with a rifle, I want to “live through the sight” so-to-speak.
Might not work for you, but try to force your vision to move faster than the gun- might help.
The_War_Wagon
08-28-19, 23:57
WOTTA difference a STANCE makes!
Been level, but left, for a while now with Weaver. Was thinking before I went to the range, I was going to try isosceles, just to see what happens. I'd dropped back to my trusty Ruger Mk.III, JUST so I could concentrate on the fundamentals that day.
First mag, I went Weaver. Sure enough, level, but left - even with .22's (I'm an ALL-1911-ALL-the-time-in-.45 guy otherwise, for reference). So I change to Isosceles on the next mag, and save for a flier, I'm ALL bullseyes!
And I stayed Isosceles, for the next 380 rounds. Save for a flier here & there, same result - bullseyes!
I felt like a kid in grade school again - I wanted to bring my targets home and hang them on the fridge, like a kid who's just made a an "A+" on his test!
Of course, in the short term, if Mugger T. Homeboy busts into the house, I just have to mow him down, Isosceles-style. "T.J. Hooker" always made it look AWESOME... but then... no one was ACTUALLY shooting back at the toupee, either. And I'm a damn big, inviting, target, standing Isosceles.
Clearly, when I go BACK to Weaver, I'm going to need to hold my right arm (I'm right-handed, right-eye dominant, for reference) straighter/more firmly. If anyone has any other analysis of what's going on with me, feel free to sing out. I'd BEEN shooting weaver FINE for 30 years - primarily with .45 & 10mm, but also with 9mm and .40 (but neither of those in 20 years). Just in the last 12-18 mos., I'd started drifting left. Until going Isosceles on Monday.
I need to do more PT. I’m getting fat and weak.
I need to do more PT. I’m getting fat and weak.
Yeah I was kind of gassed from a three hour session with a long gun and my belt on. No bueno.
everready73
08-29-19, 12:28
At my last range trip last weekend, I learned very quickly that I had over-estimated my handgun skills. I printed off a drill from T.Rex arms, and proceeded to butcher the ever-living hell out of it. I also learned that as much as I love them, at speed+distance, the Trijicon HD's are hard to make hits on non-large steel targets.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595995797_e0c6dff6d9_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3gbuv)20190817_150936 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3gbuv) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595859871_83d10abb2d_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X)20190817_153546 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595858486_10e8a16e93_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3ftF5)20190817_152050 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3ftF5) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595859136_9981651d15_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3ftSh)20190817_152715 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3ftSh) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
Then I thought; Even though I have very little training on my RMR'd 19, I bet you at range my target will be cleaner, and before I ran out of ammo, I was wrong again.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48595859871_83d10abb2d_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X)20190817_153546 (https://flic.kr/p/2h3fu5X) by Willis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/140211446@N06/), on Flickr
All this really did was make me take a long look at myself, and realize that I need to do this more, and I need to do this better. I am going to do this drill at least twice every range trip from here on in, and see if I can tighten things up.
I do the 5x5 drill and dot torture on most range trips, but have never seen this one. Thanks for posting, I just printed some off. Looks like a challenging test with the time limits. I am sure it will take some work
WickedWillis
08-29-19, 13:36
I do the 5x5 drill and dot torture on most range trips, but have never seen this one. Thanks for posting, I just printed some off. Looks like a challenging test with the time limits. I am sure it will take some work
I usually warm up with a dot drill every range trip I do, this one I did not. I'm hoping to get back out there this weekend and try to improve.
WOTTA difference a STANCE makes!
Been level, but left, for a while now with Weaver. Was thinking before I went to the range, I was going to try isosceles, just to see what happens. I'd dropped back to my trusty Ruger Mk.III, JUST so I could concentrate on the fundamentals that day.
First mag, I went Weaver. Sure enough, level, but left - even with .22's (I'm an ALL-1911-ALL-the-time-in-.45 guy otherwise, for reference). So I change to Isosceles on the next mag, and save for a flier, I'm ALL bullseyes!
And I stayed Isosceles, for the next 380 rounds. Save for a flier here & there, same result - bullseyes!
I felt like a kid in grade school again - I wanted to bring my targets home and hang them on the fridge, like a kid who's just made a an "A+" on his test!
Of course, in the short term, if Mugger T. Homeboy busts into the house, I just have to mow him down, Isosceles-style. "T.J. Hooker" always made it look AWESOME... but then... no one was ACTUALLY shooting back at the toupee, either. And I'm a damn big, inviting, target, standing Isosceles.
Clearly, when I go BACK to Weaver, I'm going to need to hold my right arm (I'm right-handed, right-eye dominant, for reference) straighter/more firmly. If anyone has any other analysis of what's going on with me, feel free to sing out. I'd BEEN shooting weaver FINE for 30 years - primarily with .45 & 10mm, but also with 9mm and .40 (but neither of those in 20 years). Just in the last 12-18 mos., I'd started drifting left. Until going Isosceles on Monday.
I can’t speak to why you started drifting recently, but I’m not aware of any people that still shoot weaver. My last few instructors have all been about a version of iso, that’s a little more aggressive. Surf and his crew call it a power iso. It involves dropping your dominant foot back a good ways, locking that knee, and then loading or leaning into your front knee. Works great for recoil management across a variety of weapons. The last instructor I shot with had a similar version that he apparently got from Kyle Lamb, where you turn the back foot out a bit.
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The_War_Wagon
08-29-19, 15:37
I can’t speak to why you started drifting recently, but I’m not aware of any people that still shoot weaver. My last few instructors have all been about a version of iso, that’s a little more aggressive. Surf and his crew call it a power iso. It involves dropping your dominant foot back a good ways, locking that knee, and then loading or leaning into your front knee. Works great for recoil management across a variety of weapons. The last instructor I shot with had a similar version that he apparently got from Kyle Lamb, where you turn the back foot out a bit.
HMMMM... that's KINDA what I was practicing!
If you stand square up - even shooting .22's - you tend to want to fall backwards. So I was putting my right foot back a bit, and leaning into my left while shooting.
Reckon I'll put my left foot back, and lean into my right next time, and see what happens.
And when did Weaver get abandoned?!?! Geez... I gotta STOP re-reading "Cooper's Corner" one of these days...
Shot the POST(?) assessment tonight, which was the first time I’ve shot from concealment in probably almost a year, and rarely have ever been able to do it before that. I’d guess I’ve shot from concealment less than 10 times ever. Tonight was the first time that I really noticed a difference when comparing it to my usual OWB setup though. Not sure if it was just a weird night or the AIWB really did mess me up for some reason but I was searching for the dot like crazy. That hasn’t been a problem in a long time. My guess is that the differences in the draw meant I didn’t have as high of an index when pushing the gun out from the compressed high ready, so it took longer to find the dot. Clearly found something new to practice.
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VISION! I learned that shooting with your eyes open actually works!
Been wearing glasses for driving since I was 17 but for everything else i had no issues without glasses. My last pair was bought 10 years ago. Last year I did notice a difference but didn't seem that bad. Finally last Sept went to the optometrist and holy hell I may as well be a sniper now! I'm no longer fighting myself in training and classes
VISION! I learned that shooting with your eyes open actually works!
Been wearing glasses for driving since I was 17 but for everything else i had no issues without glasses. My last pair was bought 10 years ago. Last year I did notice a difference but didn't seem that bad. Finally last Sept went to the optometrist and holy hell I may as well be a sniper now! I'm no longer fighting myself in training and classes
Yeah there’s definitely something to be said for having eye pro/glasses that aren’t fighting you. I forgot my good eyepro while shooting on Sunday and there was a scratch on my backup pair that interfered perfectly with my eyesight and sight picture. I had to hold my head high and look under the scratch the whole time, almost as if I was shooting under my NODs. Pain in the ass for such a small thing.
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I take it neither of you guys are old enough for bifocals? Just wait.
For gun games with the pistol I have glasses that allow me to see the front sight. The target is fussy.
For social/HD practice I don't wear any Rx (my far vision is 20/15 and 20/25) and make sure I can hit and group acceptably from 25yards in.
For rifles, I use etched reticles on my 1x optics, or LPVO's with no Rx. My HD rifle wears an Aimpoint PRO, I can put up with the flare of the dot.
It's hell to get old.
P2Vaircrewman
10-07-19, 10:05
I take it neither of you guys are old enough for bifocals? Just wait.
For gun games with the pistol I have glasses that allow me to see the front sight. The target is fussy.
For social/HD practice I don't wear any Rx (my far vision is 20/15 and 20/25) and make sure I can hit and group acceptably from 25yards in.
For rifles, I use etched reticles on my 1x optics, or LPVO's with no Rx. My HD rifle wears an Aimpoint PRO, I can put up with the flare of the dot.
It's hell to get old.
I just last had cataract surgery last April, my left eye is 20/10 but my right is 20/25 and I shoot right eye dominate. I wish the results of the surgery were reversed with the right being the better eye. The dot of my Aimpoint PRO is about the same with either eye but target clarity at a distance of 100 yards is an issue with the PRO but my 1-4 LPVO resolves the the distance issue. I plan on talking to my eye doctor about contacts for just the right eye, one for close to see pistol sights and one for distance. I used that set up before the cataract surgery when I wore contacts in both eyes. The left contact was for distance and a close or far in the right eye depending on need..
everready73
10-07-19, 12:38
I just last had cataract surgery last April, my left eye is 20/10 but my right is 20/25 and I shoot right eye dominate. I wish the results of the surgery were reversed with the right being the better eye. The dot of my Aimpoint PRO is about the same with either eye but target clarity at a distance of 100 yards is an issue with the PRO but my 1-4 LPVO resolves the the distance issue. I plan on talking to my eye doctor about contacts for just the right eye, one for close to see pistol sights and one for distance. I used that set up before the cataract surgery when I wore contacts in both eyes. The left contact was for distance and a close or far in the right eye depending on need..
Not sure if it would help, but they do make full lens "reader" style safety glasses. I recommended a pair to 26inf in the Tactical gear section of the forum and there is some other decent discussion of prescription safety glasses if you wanted to go that route
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?216027-Help-me-out-With-Eye-Pro
Not sure if it would help, but they do make full lens "reader" style safety glasses. I recommended a pair to 26inf in the Tactical gear section of the forum and there is some other decent discussion of prescription safety glasses if you wanted to go that route
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?216027-Help-me-out-With-Eye-Pro
Those are what I'm using currently, I went to the optometrist and got a new Rx to match the ELVEX full lens readers, just haven't pulled the trigger on a fancy 'prescription' pair.
One note of caution on the ELVEX, I've broken an ear piece adjusting the glasses with earpro in place, fixed it with a piece of clear tubing I had in the shop. I ordered a couple more glasses as spares, they aren't that expensive.
I just last had cataract surgery last April, my left eye is 20/10 but my right is 20/25 and I shoot right eye dominate.
I had cataracts as a result of medication in my early 40's. Went from 20/400 and 20/800 to 20/15 and 20/25 - magic. Normally I run without glasses. What my wife calls my $500.00 reading glasses have slight corrections bringing me close to 20/20 in both eyes, I do wear them to drive so I can see the small stuff on the panel - important to know the temp when your cruising.
P2Vaircrewman
10-07-19, 14:25
Not sure if it would help, but they do make full lens "reader" style safety glasses. I recommended a pair to 26inf in the Tactical gear section of the forum and there is some other decent discussion of prescription safety glasses if you wanted to go that route
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?216027-Help-me-out-With-Eye-Pro
I have used that but you end up degrading distance vision in the good eye to help the bad eye.
P2Vaircrewman
10-07-19, 14:33
I had cataracts as a result of medication in my early 40's. Went from 20/400 and 20/800 to 20/15 and 20/25 - magic. Normally I run without glasses. What my wife calls my $500.00 reading glasses have slight corrections bringing me close to 20/20 in both eyes, I do wear them to drive so I can see the small stuff on the panel - important to know the temp when your cruising.
I am fine with no glasses, I can read the panel and GPS. I only need glasses reading small print. Funny the right eye tends to change as the day goes on. In the morning after awaking it is 20/20 but degrades to 20/25 as the day goes on. Doc says it might be dry eye but drops don't do much good. After the surgery on the right eye I still had a lot of astigmatism so the Doc did a procedure called limbal relaxing incisions which removed the astigmatism.
https://www.zioneye.com/eye-surgery/cataract-surgery/limbal-relaxing-incisions-lris/
I have used that but you end up degrading distance vision in the good eye to help the bad eye.
I'd like to make it clear that I wear them only as appropriate for gun games with pistols.
Not my actual shooting, but I realized last night that I’m pretty confident I don’t like my closed tune Warcomp. I’ve put probably about 1k rounds through it and the recoil impulse has always seemed kind of weird. Last nighr I was comparing my BCM with it to my PSA with an FCD muzzle device and i really did not like it. I’ve been very pleased with my BCM comps so I have to decide whether I’m going back to one of those or if I’m willing to put a MAMS on that upper as well.
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Did a basic rifle class on Saturday.
I have to work on holdovers. Usually I shoot a steel silhouette, and I'm "close enough," but on an 8" circle I need work.
I also shoot low on an IDPA (ISPC?) Cardboard silhouette. The circle is a bit high, I tend to shoot the bottom half. Not very good on the actual target zone, but anatomically accurate.
I was bitching, threatening to bring an xray film and show my impact zone was appropriate. Still got told to stfu, I was missing the target... which is true.
The staff was also really against isosceles for rifle, preferring a slightly aggressive fighting stance. That was a training scar they didn't like.
Diamondback
10-17-19, 19:34
That apparently because I'm a bit soggy around the midsection some members think I'm not "good enough" to be here, and would rather bitch about the gut I've *regularly* noted having problems with over most of my life than offer requested *constructive* gear suggestions.
That apparently because I'm a bit soggy around the midsection some members think I'm not "good enough" to be here, and would rather bitch about the gut I've *regularly* noted having problems with over most of my life than offer requested *constructive* ear suggestions.
I figured out what you are saying.
I'd say something snarky about Mr. Goodtimes, but that old adage about not arguing with idiots comes to mind.
A little at a time with no setbacks will do you good in the long run.
Diamondback
10-18-19, 03:07
Thanks, Deuce-Six; looks like I need to get the G key on this keyboard checked out. Part of why I'm not going for crash-drops and gung-ho gym marathons, lifestyle changes are more likely to stuck if made in small increments with time to adapt. :)
In all seriousness, I *do* need to get out and train more. *Still.* Not to mention get some builds tested, if I can find a civvy-friendly range that's not Fuddtard Kapo Hell around here in the Toilet Bowl of the Northwet.
Finally got a low light class in which wasn't groundbreaking, but good practice. I think my biggest takeaway was for really tough shots, I like being able to put the X300U on constant on and utilize a normal grip. It didn't take much extra time but did seem to make a difference when its dark AF, the distance is 15 yards or so, its a low percentage shot, and I'm on the clock. For closer stuff the momentary worked better than I expected, but I was using the PHLSTER ARC which probably helped.
I recall having a discussion on the board about "slapping the trigger" when firing pistol rapidly at close range.
I disagreed with the method.
Well I found that while firing rapidly at close range and moving i would occasionally fail to let the trigger reset because i want constant control of the trigger.
My solution was to be certain I'd fully released the trigger by letting my finger just come off it before pressing it again.
Yup, a firm hold on the pistol, slapping the trigger, and getting a "good enough" front sight covering the target is the way to get very short split times (.12-.17) and hits without short-stroking the trigger.
I recall having a discussion on the board about "slapping the trigger" when firing pistol rapidly at close range.
I disagreed with the method.
Well I found that while firing rapidly at close range and moving i would occasionally fail to let the trigger reset because i want constant control of the trigger.
My solution was to be certain I'd fully released the trigger by letting my finger just come off it before pressing it again.
Yup, a firm hold on the pistol, slapping the trigger, and getting a "good enough" front sight covering the target is the way to get very short split times (.12-.17) and hits without short-stroking the trigger.
Nice. 0.12 on a pistol is smoking.
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