View Full Version : LE- Choosing a Sidearm, 220 or 229?
Forgive me if you have seen this on another forum....
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will present my dilemma. I have no intention of starting a caliber war here, just merely trying to receive some input that will help me make a choice. I am an LEO that has a choice of the Sig P series pistols (220, 229, 226) as a service sidearm. My choices in caliber ar 9mm, .40, and .45. I have carried all 3 platforms listed as well as all 3 calibers at one time or another. However, I am faced with choosing the weapon I would like to carry for the rest of my career, and will have to purchase nylon and leather duty gear. Maybe you can give me some input as I "think aloud" here:
My job takes me to areas that are often quite remote (backcountry), and surprisingly to areas that are sometimes very urban (downtown). I often work alone with little or no backup. I often work in areas where I may run into large critters (bear, elk, moose, etc.)and sometimes make a lot of contacts with people when I am working on the road. I sometimes have to put animals down with my sidearm, because they have been hit by vehicles on the roadway (yes, not ideal, but sometimes the situation negates the use of a longarm).
I currently carry a Sig P220 .45. Recently, I have had some misgivings about the 220, although I have carried it less than a year now. I don't feel I shoot it as well as the .40 or 9mm at this point, although I have no problem qualifying with the .45. I am not just referring to accuracy here. I think I am a little slower from the holster to my first shot (anticipating recoil?). My magazine exchanges seem to be slower with the singlestack mags, and I seem to have more dexterity issues (fumbling) than with the doublestack mags I am so used to. For me, it seems harder to seat the singlestack mags at speed, and they sometimes seem to hang up when I hit the mag release. This may be due to me canting the gun over to the side in order to load a mag? I practice fairly often off-duty and not just when my department sends me to the range.
Modern law enforcement seems to dictate higher capacity pistols, or carrying more rounds. A quad-stack mag carrier seems to be quite a load. Real or perceived, a loaded 220 seems to weigh pretty heavy on my hip compared a to a 229. However, I have never had the opportunity to weigh a loaded 220 or 229. I do know that I now have pain in my right hip (sciatic?), and am considering weighs to reduce weight on my belt. Furthermore, the 220 seems to be harder for me to conceal when I am plain-clothes or off-duty.
Realistically, I know that most gun battles are a quick affair that occur up-close, that are over in a few seconds with only a few shots fired. However, I often think of worst-case scenarios (ex. North Hollywood bank robbery). I sometimes think I would be better off with the higher capacity mags of the 229 in .40, rather than the 7 or 8 rounders for the 220. I have trained under stress and found that magazine exchanges are not what you want to be thinking about under fire. There seems to be little difference in "stopping power" (for lack of a better term) between .40 and .45, particularly with modern, high-quality hollowpoint ammunition. But those 230 grain +P Federal Premium HSTs seem to keep calling me.
So, my choices are either to stick with the 220 I currently carry, or request a .40 cal 229. A .40 cal 226 is really attractive to me, but it is only available to ME in 9mm. I am about to embark on several weeks of training that will include a lot of range time. I am debating forcing myself to learn the 220 during this time, or going to the 229 which feels more natural to me. Your thoughts are appreciated. I would especially like to hear from those people that carry a sidearm for a living, or have in the past. I know I may be overthinking all of this, but to me it is a serious choice.
Go to SIGorum and ask this question. You most likely will get the answer, buy what you shoot best. Personally, I'd go with the 229. I love my 220, but I feel the 229 is a better duty pistol. Just my .02 and worth every penny.
I've carried both, but not "for a living" as indicated in your initial post. That's why I didn't respond.
Short answers:
The two guns weigh almost exactly the same (within an ounce).
The P229 is considerably smaller in muzzle length and slightly shorter in butt length.
The P229 has 50% higher capacity.
The P220 has a reputation for being one of the most accurate out of the box guns on the market.
Of the two, I'd definitely choose the P229, primarily for the higher capacity.
It sounds like you have multiple reasons why the 229 or 226 would be better for you and only one reason to stick with the 220...the fact that it's a .45.
The choice seems pretty clear to me. :D
evilmonkey
09-17-08, 00:27
This is a tricky question! Personally I would go 226 or 220 since I hate the .40 round. Another question would be which feels better to you, and since they are all sigs they should all be pretty comfortable in your hand since sig has the best grip shape then any other pistol I have ever shot! If it were me I would go with the 226 because of higher capacity! The 9mm can do a lot of damge just as long as your not having to follow dumb ass military law and use FMJ and I have never felt doubt that it will take down someone if I needed to! personally I like the Win Ranger 147 gr, its what I use in my glock for my CCW. which ever of the 3 you choose will serve you well so feel confident in that!;)
theJanitor
09-17-08, 02:48
i have a 229 in 9mm. it was factory refurbished as it was turned in by our local SSD (SWAT) team. it's run without a hitch for the last 9 years. i think it has a great balance of ergonomics, capacity, and size. it's the only SIG that i want to own, besides a 210, of course.
Try to borrow a 229 and do a comparison shoot. I carried a 229 for a couple of years but gave it up due to my hand size. The 220 feels a lot better for my smaller hands. I never had a problem qualifying but I had the same uneasiness you describe with your 220. FWIW, it may be my imagination but the 45 caliber guns I have seem to have a softer recoil impulse than the 40 caliber guns.
I had feed problems with my 229 after about the first 500 rounds. I sent it off to Sig and they replaced the springs and reshaped the feed ramp and the gun has fired around two thousand since without a single malfunction. It's a good gun but I wish it fit my hand better.
GLOCKMASTER
09-17-08, 05:43
You are right, it is a serious choice. Try to get your hands on all three before you make the decision.
I carry the P229 ( in .357) for a living. I really like the pistol. It's compact, carries well in a uniform, is extremely accurate and if needed easy to conceal. We have not had any mechanical issues with the pistol. However, I wish they would have given us choice between the P226 and the P229. I personally like the size and longer sight radius of the P226. Caliber, well I'm not going to talk about that. With the ammunition technology that is out there today I think you will be okay with either, as long as they provide you with a good bullet and you do your part.
Good luck in your decision.
I've owned multiple versions of all the pistols you've considered, in multiple calibers (9mm P220, .45 P220, .40 P229, .357 P229). Out of all of them, for various reasons, the one that's been a keeper is the P229, with both .347 and .40 barrels, with the DAK action.
Given your urban/country/animal put-down requirements, I'd recommend the P229 in .40. I also think that the P229 in general has a better balance and is easier to carry (either in open uniform carry or in a concealed mode) than the P220.
Although it may not be an option for you, a P229 chambered in .357 SIG sounds like it could be an ideal option as well.
Best, Jon
Definitely try and shoot all three. I carried the P226 in 9mm as a personal weapon for a couple years. I carried both the P229 in 40 and a P220 on duty as a street cop. When I started, I was forced into the P229. It felt awkward in my hand and I had to work with it, but I was able to get good with it. As soon as I could I switched to the P220, only because it felt better and I shot it better. If you are comfortable with the P229, great.
With those experiences in mind, I would be torn between the P226 in 9mm and the P229 in 40. Both are solid choices. I would lean towards the P226 only because I find them more comfortable. The current crop of P220's are apparently having issues and I would opt for the increased capacity of the P229/P226. Carrying that quad mag pouch for the P220 is no way to reduce weight on the belt! Trust me!
Thanks guys....lots of great comments! I am swamped...I will try to reply as I can find time. Work is killing me right now!:confused:
I've owned multiple versions of all the pistols you've considered, in multiple calibers (9mm P220, .45 P220, .40 P229, .357 P229). Out of all of them, for various reasons, the one that's been a keeper is the P229, with both .347 and .40 barrels, with the DAK action.
Given your urban/country/animal put-down requirements, I'd recommend the P229 in .40. I also think that the P229 in general has a better balance and is easier to carry (either in open uniform carry or in a concealed mode) than the P220.
Although it may not be an option for you, a P229 chambered in .357 SIG sounds like it could be an ideal option as well.
Best, JonI'm really happy with my 229 .40 SAS DAK. I just passed the 1,000 round mark and it has fed everything I've stuffed into the magazine . The DAK trigger took a bit of familiarization and I still dont care for the short reset mode but as long as I shoot it like I would my D Model Beretta 92 I Love it. I bought this pistol because my agency is in a transition phase from the Beretta 92D to the Sig 229 and as a firearms instructor I felt that it was my responsibility to be familiar with the weapon before we recieved them. My only other experience with SIG was a 220 and I experienced all of the issues that you spoke of so I was less than thrilled with the selection of the 229 but now after firing it I have to say that barring the teething problems that some departments are having with SIG it was a great choice.
You need to figure out which one you are more comfortable with and which one you shoot better.
Does your 220 have a stamped steel slide or stainless slide? Some of the newer 220's with the stamped steel slide and internal extractor have been suffering malfunctions after around 500 rounds or so. If your 220 works and works well for you then why change?
The 229 is smaller and fatter, but the weight is very similar. Make sure it fits your hand and you like the way it shoots before you try to make the switch.
Both are good guns and have the positives and negatives. It truly comes down to your own personal preference.
I've owned both.
IMO, the P229 (in .40) was better, all around, than the P220.
Better size (works for duty, works for concealment), higher capacity.
If you HAVE to have a P22x, and you have small hands, such that the grip of the 226/8/9 is too much for you, that's the only reason I can find to select the P220.
Of the choices you have, I'd personally select:
1. 9 mm P226
2. .40 P229
3. .45 ACP P220--last choice by far.
In the Sig platform I believe that 9mm is the caliber, so that would be the P226 loaded with 125 grain 9mm LE ammo…
If you want a .40, I would suggest a Glock 35... It is the only Glock designed as a .40 from the get go (what I carry at work)… Most other Glock 40s are just bored out 9mms and can have issues with muzzle flip and some accessories…
If you want a big bore 45 for duty use that can handle 230 grain +P ammo, I still recommend the Smith & Wesson 4506 over all others...
Just my .02
B
.357sigger
09-18-08, 16:28
P229 in .40...the DAK or DA/SA are great guns. I have both!!
Steve in PA
09-18-08, 18:08
I would take the P220 any day of the week. In fact I own two of them.
Line Rider
09-18-08, 20:28
My job takes me to areas that are often quite remote (backcountry), and surprisingly to areas that are sometimes very urban (downtown). I often work alone with little or no backup.
I have carried all three. I started with the P220, then the P226 and next the P229. Finally I went back to the P226. Why? 1.) The P226 fit my hand the best. 2.) I was working grave yard shift in a small town(pop. 4000+/- ) by myself. I wanted all the firepower I could get.
I've carried both, but not "for a living" as indicated in your initial post. That's why I didn't respond.
Short answers:
The two guns weigh almost exactly the same (within an ounce).
The P229 is considerably smaller in muzzle length and slightly shorter in butt length.
The P229 has 50% higher capacity.
The P220 has a reputation for being one of the most accurate out of the box guns on the market.
Of the two, I'd definitely choose the P229, primarily for the higher capacity.
I still appreciate your thoughts. As far as weight, I would be interested in knowing the difference in weight of the loaded firearms and the loaded magazines.
This is a tricky question! Personally I would go 226 or 220 since I hate the .40 round. Another question would be which feels better to you, and since they are all sigs they should all be pretty comfortable in your hand since sig has the best grip shape then any other pistol I have ever shot! If it were me I would go with the 226 because of higher capacity! The 9mm can do a lot of damge just as long as your not having to follow dumb ass military law and use FMJ and I have never felt doubt that it will take down someone if I needed to! personally I like the Win Ranger 147 gr, its what I use in my glock for my CCW. which ever of the 3 you choose will serve you well so feel confident in that!;)
I like the 9mm, but for the purposes of this discussion, I will be going for a .40 or .45. As far as ammo, I am generally issued high-quality Federal or Winchester hollowpoints.
Try to borrow a 229 and do a comparison shoot. I carried a 229 for a couple of years but gave it up due to my hand size. The 220 feels a lot better for my smaller hands. I never had a problem qualifying but I had the same uneasiness you describe with your 220. FWIW, it may be my imagination but the 45 caliber guns I have seem to have a softer recoil impulse than the 40 caliber guns.
I had feed problems with my 229 after about the first 500 rounds. I sent it off to Sig and they replaced the springs and reshaped the feed ramp and the gun has fired around two thousand since without a single malfunction. It's a good gun but I wish it fit my hand better.
I have avg. size hands for a 200 pound guy. The 229 feels a little wide in my hand. The 220 feels nicer, but I have a harder time reaching the mag release w/o breaking my grip. I was shooting both guns fairly well when I compared them the other day. My range session did not prove to me that one was overwhelmingly easier for me to shoot this time.:rolleyes:
You are right, it is a serious choice. Try to get your hands on all three before you make the decision.
I carry the P229 ( in .357) for a living. I really like the pistol. It's compact, carries well in a uniform, is extremely accurate and if needed easy to conceal. We have not had any mechanical issues with the pistol. However, I wish they would have given us choice between the P226 and the P229. I personally like the size and longer sight radius of the P226. Caliber, well I'm not going to talk about that. With the ammunition technology that is out there today I think you will be okay with either, as long as they provide you with a good bullet and you do your part.
Good luck in your decision.
.357 Sig is not an approved caliber for me. I think I like the longer sight radius for duty carry, but I really hate carrying the bigger guns off-duty. I am always worried they will print when wearing warm-weather clothing. I am pretty confident in .40 cal with modern ammo, but I am also presented with some uncommon wildlife issues.
Carrying that quad mag pouch for the P220 is no way to reduce weight on the belt! Trust me!
10-4....good to know from someone that has done it.
Does your 220 have a stamped steel slide or stainless slide? Some of the newer 220's with the stamped steel slide and internal extractor have been suffering malfunctions after around 500 rounds or so. If your 220 works and works well for you then why change?
It is the older stamped steel slide. I have a couple thousand rounds down the pipe reliably...then again, I've never had problems with reliability in any of my Sigs.
In the Sig platform I believe that 9mm is the caliber, so that would be the P226 loaded with 125 grain 9mm LE ammo…
If you want a .40, I would suggest a Glock 35... It is the only Glock designed as a .40 from the get go (what I carry at work)… Most other Glock 40s are just bored out 9mms and can have issues with muzzle flip and some accessories…
If you want a big bore 45 for duty use that can handle 230 grain +P ammo, I still recommend the Smith & Wesson 4506 over all others...
Just my .02
B
I love my personal 9mm 226. But there are a variety of reasons why I would like to go with a larger caliber. Sig Classics are the only approved firearms for me. I have a Glock 35, but can't carry it at work.
P229 in .40...the DAK or DA/SA are great guns. I have both!!
DAK is not approved for me.
.357sigger
09-19-08, 10:36
DAK is not approved for me.
Like i said I have both...I don't think that you can go wrong with either trigger configuration...but I would still vote for a 229.
I love my personal 9mm 226. But there are a variety of reasons why I would like to go with a larger caliber. Sig Classics are the only approved firearms for me. I have a Glock 35, but can't carry it at work.
If you already own a P226 in 9mm and you can carry quality 9mm LE ammo in it, I would just do that and not look back... Then use the money you save to attend some top shelf firearms training with your duty rig... You will get a lot more benefit from that than a caliber change...
Just my .02
B
To me, the 229 is the more efficient of the two. I have ape-like hands, and am left-handed, but with practice I got as good with it as with any of my other duty pistols. You will, too. Be safe.
I have to second what Buck said. If I already owned a P226 in 9mm, the debate would be over.
If you are absolutely stuck on 40 or 45, the P229 is the way to go. My old department had very good luck with the P229 in 40S&W and P226 in 9mm. The few P226's we had in 40S&W seemed to have more failures and parts breakage (if I were to believe the officers carrying them and the range staff - I never carried or owned one).
My vote goes to the 9mm 226, make sure you get the short reset trigger as well.
I have all of the Sigs you've mentioned in multiples except for the 229 (only one of these). Concealing a 226 and/or a 220 isn't a problem for me with a Milt Sparks VM-2 and quite comfortably too.
The 220 doesn't fit my hand as nicely as either of your other two options but that doesn't seem to lessen its accuracy.
What do you feel more comfortable with? Which caliber are you willing to trust with your life? The 226 has the capacity but if you're stuck with subsonic 147 grain loads, I wouldn't consider it. 124 +p is a different story altogether. If weight is a concern, all of the additional 220 mags to provide equal capacity will be heavier but will also take up valuable space on your service belt.
Only you can make this decision. As others have said... try to shoot, handle, holster, fondle all three of your options. You probably can't go wrong. Hopefully, you'll end up with the one that is most right for you.
Finally, thank you for putting your life on the line to protect and keep the rest of us safe.
"The 226 has the capacity but if you're stuck with subsonic 147 grain loads, I wouldn't consider it. 124 +p is a different story altogether."
That comment does NOT make sense, as modern robust expanding 147 gr loads have proven to work VERY well in voluminous OIS incidents. The Winchester 147 gr (RA9T) and Federal HST 147 gr (P9HST2) JHP's are the most common loads in this area and have established a near perfect terminal performance record in multiple OIS incidents. The Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P and Win 127 gr +P+ (RA9TA) JHP's are also relatively common and have performed as well as, but not better than the 147 gr loads.
In addition, after extensive independent testing the FBI has once again selected a 147 gr for their 9mm issue load--the Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP.
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
DocGKR: Just my preference. I prefer the 125 grain 357SIG round. When I'm carrying 9mm, I go with the Speer GDHP 124 grain +p. Aside from a couple hundred FPS, these two rounds are very similar.
Yup, the .357 Sig is just a slightly faster 9 mm. If you look at equivalent projectiles (ie. 9 mm 124 gr Gold Dot vs. .357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot), penetration and expansion is essentially identical across the spectrum of IWBA and FBI intermediate barrier testing protocols. The .357 Sig has more pressure, blast, flash and recoil with smaller magazine capacity...I prefer the 9 mm or going up in caliber to a .40 S&W.
I have carried both, but now am now issued the 229 in .357 and Love it. If I was buying my own I would be getting a 229 with the short reset trigger.
I would get the "R" one with the Rail.
Dave
Sorry for disappearing guys. I have been on the road for a few days. I have looked forward to your responses to this thread. I unfortunately have to hit the road again. I will try to respond to your posts by tomorrow. I am learning a lot here.
If you decide you want a rail and SRT trigger, consider the "Elite." No handgun in my safe gets as much love from me as this gun, the rest are for the most part, taking up useful space.:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/DSC04563.jpg
W/Sig grip panels...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/DSC04518a.jpg
motorcopm4
10-17-08, 07:12
I dont think you could go wrong picking any of the listed. IMO the .40 works well for police work as has been proven by my dept. but its killing our Glock slides, beating the rails up and Glock says this is normal for the .40 round because of the snappy recoil properties. I would personally go with the .45 If given the choice just because of the round . Go with whatever feels better in the hand and what you shoot better with, thats whats important, bullet placement. I know carrying that P220 is a boat anchor they should look into a lighter .45:) ie Glock 21SF, XD45, M&P45,
I think we are actually moving to the M&P45 because of the backstrap. We have a lot of females and males with small hands that are having problems with the G22 size.
IMO the .40 works well for police work as has been proven by my dept. but its killing our Glock slides, beating the rails up and Glock says this is normal for the .40 round because of the snappy recoil properties.
I believe that in a 40 cal Glock, the G35 is the only choice... It is the same size as a 1911 and recoil / frame flex with metal weapon lights is not an issue...
Just my .02
B
Folks,
I thank you all for your comments on this subject. After much deliberation, I have chosen the .45 caliber P220. I will eventually buy a 229 in .40 as a personal carry weapon. I will have a lot of free ammo to perfect my technique over the next 19 weeks. I already feel fairly comfortable with the 228/229/226 in 9mm and .40. So I am embracing the challenge of learning a new weapon since I have the time. Now only to find a decent quad or triple magazine carrier to go with my nylon web gear....
Finally, thank you for putting your life on the line to protect and keep the rest of us safe.
Thank you sir. I appreciate your comment. It is a pleasure to serve.
I believe that in a 40 cal Glock, the G35 is the only choice... It is the same size as a 1911 and recoil / frame flex with metal weapon lights is not an issue...
Just my .02
B
I have a G35. This gun has never grown on me, unlike my G23. But for some reason, I just can't seem to part with it. It's like it's daring me to like it.........:p
I know carrying that P220 is a boat anchor they should look into a lighter .45:) ie Glock 21SF, XD45, M&P45,
And one with more than 7 or 8 rounds magazine capacity.........
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