View Full Version : The G3 rifle and snipers
From the book "Full Circle: A Treatise on Roller Locking":
"Due to World War II experience, especially in Russia, it was decreed that sniper rifles not be distinguishable from the rest of the issued rifles "in order not to endanger a sniper should he be taken prisoner". For this reason all G3's from the 1959 pattern on had scope rails stamped into the receiver tops". When fitted with the Hensoldt scope the range of the rifle was officially extended from 300 to 600 meters.
Not familiar with the HK claw-type mount, but presumably it could be quickly removed and discarded if capture was imminent. Was Germany unique in this type of requirement?
I believe at the time they were. Even before the G3 they had sniper scopes on K-98 rifles that
could be removed rendering a Grey Man rifle.
From the book "Full Circle: A Treatise on Roller Locking":
"Due to World War II experience, especially in Russia, it was decreed that sniper rifles not be distinguishable from the rest of the issued rifles "in order not to endanger a sniper should he be taken prisoner". For this reason all G3's from the 1959 pattern on had scope rails stamped into the receiver tops". When fitted with the Hensoldt scope the range of the rifle was officially extended from 300 to 600 meters.
Not familiar with the HK claw-type mount, but presumably it could be quickly removed and discarded if capture was imminent. Was Germany unique in this type of requirement?
A few things.
A standard G3 probably doesn't satisfy the military definition of sniper rifle. Obviously optics vs. no optics give an advantage but it's still a 2MOA rifle at the end of the day. Even the G3/SG1 wasn't capable of 1MOA with a factory set trigger group.
I think it was more of a European "one rifle does everything" modular mindset, kind of like how the AUG takes a 16", 20" or 24" Hbar for various applications.
The HK claw mount is a QD "almost return to true zero" mount which is actually pretty decent considering when it was made. But you can drop a carry handle mount on an A2 pretty fast as well.
And given the German / Russian WWII experience, it probably was a good thing to not get captured as a sniper.
Given the timeframe that the G3 was designed in, it was kind of "modular before modular was cool".
Given the timeframe that the G3 was designed in, it was kind of "modular before modular was cool".
The Germans were ahead of the curve on a lot of things. If Stalin didn't have 25 million disposable soldiers it might have been a very long war.
Always liked the G3/HK91 family, though by today's standards they're lacking in the ergonomic department. I would imagine that rifles like the SCAR have surpassed the G3 in terms of overall reliability, durability, and accuracy.
Always liked the G3/HK91 family, though by today's standards they're lacking in the ergonomic department. I would imagine that rifles like the SCAR have surpassed the G3 in terms of overall reliability, durability, and accuracy.
Guess we'll know in about 50 years.
I think HK clamp-ons are fascinating in that the mounts are generally universal across the entire G3 through HK21 family (including the MP-5 and HK-94).
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/G3DMR1.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/58/2e/45/582e459f4622d40a61be3195be01a8e5.jpg
The current US-driven market for sub-MOA sniper systems doesn't exactly fit with the Germans' WWII concept for sniping. Sepp Allerberger's memoirs (available at Barnes and Noble) are a very good read. He did a lot of work with a captured Russian Mosin-Nagant, and favored their 7.62 x 54R explosive ammo.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/6a/Hetzenauer_Matth%C3%A4us.jpeg
The Swiss-German Sniping 4G concept is very interesting in that you use a generic Infantryman's rifle with mild magnification and you shoot a string of fire to try and nail a wind call before your targets take cover or run away.
https://everydaymarksman.wordpress.com/2014/11/28/a-look-at-sniping-4th-generation-s4g/
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70417-Designated-Marksman-discussion-thread
Not every sniper school has to be 6 weeks long. This is a video of an AMU course run for the Americal Division in-country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-wsYPl2QCY
Great post, sinister.
I now have another book to add to the pile
Sepp Allerberger's memoirs (available at Barnes and Noble) are a very good read. He did a lot of work with a captured Russian Mosin-Nagant, and favored their explosive 7.62 x 54R ammo.
That was an enlightening book when I read it.
Guess we'll know in about 50 years.
I fully expect G3s to be floating around in 50 years, as will M-16/M4 and AKs. SCAR? Not so much.
The current US-driven market for sub-MOA sniper systems doesn't exactly fit with the Germans' WWII concept for sniping.
Just happen to be bouncing around Europe for a bit, with quite a bit of time in Italy.
Italian Army everywhere on terror watch, most with misproportioned AR lookalikes. A few with a space gun Berretta. But happens to run into one guy with a scoped/bipod G3 or SG1, very much DMR vibe.
Averageman
12-29-16, 18:46
Thanks for that sinister.
Great post, pictures and links.
I heard one comment in the past that claimed that the G3 was sensitive to sandy/dusty environments. Given it's lengthy service with countries such as Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, that statement seemed suspect.
The rifle/scope combination is relegated to a designated marksman role today.
It is however still a very effective weapon, you just can't argue with .30 cal.
I heard one comment in the past that claimed that the G3 was sensitive to sandy/dusty environments. Given it's lengthy service with countries such as Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, that statement seemed suspect.
In the first Persian Gulf War the G3 actually had the best performance record of any rifle. Now we need to strongly factor that in with the number of actual G3s fielded vs. other rifles and the fact that they didn't see nearly as much action as every other rifle.
But it does demonstrate that they are strong performance in sand and wind. They also seem to do well in African theaters over the years.
And no, I no longer have the data for the rifle performance referenced above or I would have provided it.
I have an SR9T I picked up a while back. It is a re-named HK91 with polygonal barrel, PSG-1 trigger pack. I swapped the MSG90 stock for a PSG-1 stock which while heavier allows easier use of both the iron sights and the optic. I installed the 4th gen 1200m rear sight, a Spuhr rail and a B&T optic mount. I got it for the original owner, serial #under 100, confirmed by HK USA as being imported in and distributed out as an HK SR9T. It was unfired when I bought it. I have been extremely pleased with how it shoots.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
It really likes 175-178 gr ammo.
This is 5 rds of Hornady 178 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter at 100 yards. I called the pulled shot to the upper right. This is typical with this ammo.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/x9jMS
This is some mexican match 175gr FGMM/Tula steel case ammo I tried out. I pulled the bullet and powder from the Tula steel case ball and filled it back with a 175gr SMKand the correct FGMM charge of 4064. This is 10 shots at 250.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/00y5q
I have learned the trick to getting good precision from this rifle is not to lean on the bipod like you would a AR10. Shoot the HK91 like a precision bolt gun. Based on my sample of 1, it certainly looks like this rifle has a lot of potential for a DMR/Precision rifle. I know it would increase the weight, but to me a integrated forend like the HK11/21 has would be ideal to round out the package. That way you could load the bipod up or push on barricades and not worry about the cocking tube flexing and making contact with the barrel.
At some point I plan on giving this one a run in a DMR type match or PRS gas gun match. I think it'll hold it's own.
ETA: sorry about the pics. It seems like every forum has it's on quirks about how pics are posted and I lost the magic touch here.
This is a 155gr Lapua Scenar L hand load that shoots really well in both my MR762 and the SR9T. This is 5 shots at 400 yards through the SR9T. 3.6715" edge to edge, .80 moa.
https://m.imgur.com/a/4BHJH
https://m.imgur.com/a/4BHJH
Another thing, if you have one of the better buffers, something like the #17 locking piece, and correct rollers you can have an extremely smooth shooting rifle. Sometimes the G3 can kick like a mule depending on the set up and bolt gap. The one I have is EXTREMELY smooth in recoil. Spotting impacts at 300+ is very easy if you are straight behind the rifle. That said, I would LOVE to stick a KAC MAMS on it. I keep running my yap online here and there hoping KAC will make a small run of M15 MAMS in 762 for this rifle and my MR762 just to shut me up. I had originally thought of shortening the SR9T to around 16", but it shoots so well I am wary of touching the barrel other than threading it.
I did have the original HK claw mount optic mount as was discussed in the OP. It worked well the couple times I tried it but I wanted to run a 34mm optic and sold the claw mount. If you consider the time frame that system was fielded I think it was a very kickass FOW & accessories.
I know a lot of people like to crap talk the G3 because it is stamped steel, but what many fail to understand is there are many types of steel used for stamping operations. We ride around in vehicles that we trust our lives to for hundreds of thousands of miles every day in this world, with some of the key parts of those vehicles being high strength stamped steel. Done right it is a very strong material. They are heavier, but they are stout. I watched a video the other day where LAV was shooting an Iranian G3 here in SC, and he made the comment that if you look around the world today at wepaons that have been in shitholes for their entire life span; as far as the classic battle rifles go, he said the G3 is turning out to be the one to beat longevity wise.
It is also probably one of the few rifles you could injure or kill 2 of your foe with at the same time with 2 different projectiles. One coming from the muzzle, the other the spent brass from the ejection port.
I have an SR9T I picked up a while back. It is a re-named HK91 with polygonal barrel, PSG-1 trigger pack. I swapped the MSG90 stock for a PSG-1 stock which while heavier allows easier use of both the iron sights and the optic. I installed the 4th gen 1200m rear sight, a Spuhr rail and a B&T optic mount. I got it for the original owner, serial #under 100, confirmed by HK USA as being imported in and distributed out as an HK SR9T. It was unfired when I bought it. I have been extremely pleased with how it shoots.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
It really likes 175-178 gr ammo.
This is 5 rds of Hornady 178 gr ELD-X Precision Hunter at 100 yards. I called the pulled shot to the upper right. This is typical with this ammo.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/x9jMS
This is some mexican match 175gr FGMM/Tula steel case ammo I tried out. I pulled the bullet and powder from the Tula steel case ball and filled it back with a 175gr SMKand the correct FGMM charge of 4064. This is 10 shots at 250.
https://imgur.com/a/ewSNI
https://imgur.com/a/00y5q
I have learned the trick to getting good precision from this rifle is not to lean on the bipod like you would a AR10. Shoot the HK91 like a precision bolt gun. Based on my sample of 1, it certainly looks like this rifle has a lot of potential for a DMR/Precision rifle. I know it would increase the weight, but to me a integrated forend like the HK11/21 has would be ideal to round out the package. That way you could load the bipod up or push on barricades and not worry about the cocking tube flexing and making contact with the barrel.
At some point I plan on giving this one a run in a DMR type match or PRS gas gun match. I think it'll hold it's own.
ETA: sorry about the pics. It seems like every forum has it's on quirks about how pics are posted and I lost the magic touch here.
Beautiful. Is that a Spuhr fore-end?
https://youtu.be/Ds3zqUCduTM
I love this at 2:25, watching that smoking brass being launched into orbit.
https://youtu.be/ooGf99HGmeI
Josh, it is the Spuhr rail.
Hoot, that is an impressive HK
Hoot, that is an impressive HK
Thank you Sir.
Needs a MAMS though. ****Cough-Cough, F2S, Cough-Cough***
I love this at 2:25, watching that smoking brass being launched into orbit.
https://youtu.be/ooGf99HGmeI
Josh, it is the Spuhr rail.
Mann does shootout scenes so well. How do you like the Spuhr rail?
I love it. I cannot believe how light it is. Honestly when I got it in, prior to opening the box I thought Mile High must have forgot to put it in the box and shipped me an empty box. It is as light or lighter than the regular HK polymer handguard, but super strong. Fit is perfect and there is very little play. I love how small the diameter of the grip profile is with it, like the thin Hk polymer handguard.
Everything I own Spuhr wise has been gtg. The only thing Spuhr I'm not sure about would be the MR762 lower, and that is strictly because it kills one of the best traits of the MR762, the magazine. You do not see much mentioned about it, but the HK417/MR762 mag is probably the best semiauto mag out there for a long range semiauto precision rifle. I believe the oal that the mag allows for is up around 2.95ish. I would need to double check, but it is the longest I have seen. Great for loading something like the 185gr Berger Jugg up long. It would also be great if HK ever decides to do a 6.5cm or 260. As far as the MR goes, I would just stick with the stock lower, but everything else Spuhr is top notch.
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