View Full Version : PA-10 First Impressions
Hi All,
In a moment of impulse I picked up some PA-10 parts over Black Friday. Most namely a complete PA-10 upper combo deal w/10 308 PMAGS and a completed PA-10 blem lower.
The upper is the follows:
18" FN CHF/CL barrel, rifle gas
MI SS Keymod 15" rail
Standard charging handle
A2 hider
Nickel boron BCG group
The lower was just the base lower and parts kit, assembled.
Some pros:
- the barrel/rail combo is excellent quality.
- the barrel is a useful medium profile, and rifle gas system
- From prior reviews the BCG seemed suspect, but checked the ejector/extractor spring tension and everything seemed A-OK. It was all well-finished.
- the assembly work seemed acceptable (at least on the upper!)
- the rifle ships with a extended length carbine buffer tube, and a H buffer. The length is similar to a VLTOR A5. This allows use of standard AR-15 buffers up to H3. This is optimal in my mind for a carbine 308.
Some cons:
- the completed lower DIDNT HAVE A HAMMER. Didn't matter to me as it easily accepted a SSA-E trigger.
I did not have particularly high hopes give both PA-10's rep and the fact that cheap 308 AR's can be troublesome from a function standpoint. Fortunately it ran great! BHO on last round, 4 o'clock ejection pattern, and all the fired brass looked great. Furthermore, the accuracy seems to be quite good as well. It was 10 degrees with 25+ mph wind and I only had access to the 50 yd range, but I still managed to crank out several 5 shot groups that were in the 1/2-3/4" range using my bulk 308 blasting load of a Hornady 150 FMJ-BT over H4895.
Perhaps PSA has been overall improving their quality? Their QC continues to need work but I believe this is a reasonable option for a "hobby" 308 if it can be found on sale. Maybe I just got lucky.
Eurodriver
12-31-16, 06:56
Lmao no hammer??
1/2" groups though. That's impressive. I've seen top shooters with bench rest guns struggle to hold that kind of precision!
jackblack73
12-31-16, 09:14
Lmao no hammer??
1/2" groups though. That's impressive. I've seen top shooters with bench rest guns struggle to hold that kind of precision!
He said that was at 50 yards.
Eurodriver
12-31-16, 12:22
Whoops. I suppose I should read more thoroughly next time.
I really wouldn't read into the accuracy claim too much. More testing remains. I imagine it will probably be a 1.25-1.5 MOA piece, in the next couple weeks I am going to head over to the 200+ yd range. It seems to at least get close to my 20" Criterion and is better than the Mega 18" I have also shot a lot. Oddly that plinking load of a 150 FMJ-BT, 41.7 gr of H4895, CCI-200, LC brass seems to generate good accuracy in almost all semi autos I have shot it in.
Most importantly is that they seem to have gotten the gas port size right. Doesnt seem to need a adjustable gas block as of now.
And I could see your skepticism for a "1/2 MOA" PA-10 haha.
turnburglar
12-31-16, 13:40
pics??
I assume this was their Gen 2 PA10 receivers?
Yes, the Gen 2. Both generations of PMAGS work fine and drop free.
I will get pics when I am at the range next.
What stands out to me is that the lower had no hammer, which strongly implies the completed rifle was not test fired. Just more confirmation about the current state of PSA and their products.
Not meant to hijack at all and glad to see this rifle is working acceptably for mic2377.
I have one of the Gen 2 PA-10s and mine has been great. Shoots 3/4MOA at 100 yards pretty consistently with FGGM 168 and 175 gr ammo and hand loads. I was expecting a 1.5-2MOA gun from them, and was surprised to get MOA to Sub-MOA accuracy with decent ammo. Mine has run great with zero malfunctions in about 400 rounds, and i've run it pretty hard and extremely dirty at times. I wasn't expecting much, and got it for a fun plinker, but it's been surprisingly reliable and accurate. I've run it both suppressed and un suppressed. For the money, i've been very happy.43316
http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/mic2377/media/IMG_20170114_140959704.jpg.html
http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/mic2377/media/IMG_20170114_130006925_HDR.jpg.html
Stretched the legs out a bit. Shot it out to 530 yds. The above groups is at 125 yds and is representative of accuracy with my M80 clone bulk loads, which was all I had on hand. Was able to go 10 for 10 on 4"x6" steel at 300 yds. Rifle is topped with my range mule scope setup, which is a Weaver Tactical 3-10x. Another 60 rds down with no malfunctions. Fired brass demonstrates no ejector smears, case rim damage, or odd ejection patterns.
I felt that I rolled the dice on this one, but it seems to be working out. Will update periodically as I continue to use it.
Hit the range again today. Another 100 rounds down the pipe, 40 of which were Tula steel case. This was done mainly for testing purposes. Ran 100% and no issues with ignition of steel case with the SSA-E in place.
No attempts were made for accuracy today but the 8" steel @ 200 yds was getting a lot of wear.
Hi All,
I.
Some cons:
- the completed lower DIDNT HAVE A HAMMER. Didn't matter to me as it easily accepted a SSA-E trigger.
LMAO, you may the 1st person to find the BLEM on a blem lower. I can't find one on mine. Trigger wasn't bad actually but I put in a CMC. I ended up building my upper with a BA barrel. Very soft shooting with rifle gas.
I see some uppers they're offering with what they're calling a midlength gas system. I'm guessing this will be a bit sharper cycling than the rifle length, but by how much would you say?
I wouldn't really call it a difference in recoil. 1st .308 was an Armalite EA middy upper. They just seem overgassed from the start. I've heard because the gas port is sized to run weak ball ammo. Still have the Armalite with AGB, slash heavy car buffer, and Tubbs carrier weight. still find rifle gad length easier on brass.
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Oops, rifle gas
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Tough to say, it would really depend on the combo. I had a 18" Mega barrel on one upper that was mid-length - it had more recoil but was also overgassed. They can be throttled down with a gas block, which is what I did with the Mega. I will say I handled one of the new PA-10 18" mid-length uppers and the barrel profile was nice, kind of "medium-light". I must say I am also tempted to pick one of these uppers up as well "for the sake of science."
Ok, couldn't resist, got one on the way to me. Swap out the gas block you say? Definitely thinking I'll run suppressed most often. Must it be adjustable or just something with a smaller port in it? Also, will this run anyone's 308 size buffer for when I get a heavy one?
You definitely should get one if you're going to run a can, you'll be immediately even more overgassed without it. I don't have one yet, but my next AGB will be a Superlative Arms. They bleed the extra gas out of the system rather than back into the action. An AGB will solve the problem but no, it doesn't have a smaller port, you're just constricting the gas flow out of the existing port in the barrel.
The buffer you run depends on what stock you're going to use and receiver extension. If you are going to run a rifle length stock you can probably buy a PSA lower with it. Or you can buy a PSA carbine lower if you're going to run their stock. I have one of their carbine lowers stock except for trigger with the BA 18" rifle gas barrel on one of their blem uppers I bought and assembled. And it has an SLR AGB.
It's when you get into different combinations that you're going to have to use another buffer. I bought a heavy CAR buffer from Slash because I put an UBR on my Armalite lower. I have an Aero lower with an A1 stock that I use with Slash' XH rifle buffer because it will be suppressed eventually
To the poster asking about gas blocks, buffers, etc - probably the best course of action is to get one of their complete lowers, already assembled, rather than swapping random parts. See if it runs before swapping stuff.
I have one of the Gen 2 PA-10s and mine has been great. Shoots 3/4MOA at 100 yards pretty consistently with FGGM 168 and 175 gr ammo and hand loads. I was expecting a 1.5-2MOA gun from them, and was surprised to get MOA to Sub-MOA accuracy with decent ammo. Mine has run great with zero malfunctions in about 400 rounds, and i've run it pretty hard and extremely dirty at times. I wasn't expecting much, and got it for a fun plinker, but it's been surprisingly reliable and accurate. I've run it both suppressed and un suppressed. For the money, i've been very happy.43316
Man, that amazing. I like your rifle!
To the poster asking about gas blocks, buffers, etc - probably the best course of action is to get one of their complete lowers, already assembled, rather than swapping random parts. See if it runs before swapping stuff.Quite right. I read this and then immediately ordered their completed lower. I was trying to avoid putting the whole thing on the same paycheck but you're right, I can't know what I have until it's actually running with something. For a mere $650 to have an up and running 308 AR even a couple parts swapped out is still going to be a heck of a bargain.
Just FYI: PSA voided the warranty on my PA10 and the reason that they cited for doing so was because I put a low-profile, adjustable gas block on the rifle.
Just FYI: PSA voided the warranty on my PA10 and the reason that they cited for doing so was because I put a low-profile, adjustable gas block on the rifle.Would they have honored the warranty if you ran it suppressed without one?
Would they have honored the warranty if you ran it suppressed without one?
Interesting question, would love to know the answer as I've never really dealt with PSA on that level. I keep looking at their AR10''s. It's only a matter of time before I end up buying one to play with.
That is odd to hear about the warranty issue.
As for the completed lowers - the buffer/spring/tube setup is actually not bad. It is basically an AR-10/A5 length tube with an AR-10 carbine spring, and what appears to be an H carbine buffer. It is essentially how I would set one of these up if I were building one.
As a whole system, I think they are starting to get the kinks worked out. Mix and matching remains dicey in my mind given they have some proprietary parts.
Just FYI: PSA voided the warranty on my PA10 and the reason that they cited for doing so was because I put a low-profile, adjustable gas block on the rifle.
Did you need to use the warranty? I guess the answer if you do is to reinstall the one it came with.
Quite right. I read this and then immediately ordered their completed lower. I was trying to avoid putting the whole thing on the same paycheck but you're right, I can't know what I have until it's actually running with something. For a mere $650 to have an up and running 308 AR even a couple parts swapped out is still going to be a heck of a bargain.
I paid $190 with free shipping for the blem lower without a blem. Can't beat that. Yes, I put in a different trigger. And I built my upper. But for the price if I had to do it over again I'd buy a complete and see how the barrel was first.
Did you need to use the warranty? I guess the answer if you do is to reinstall the one it came with.
I did; the rifle wouldn't chamber ammo and when I mortared the partially-chambered rounds out they looked like they had been dropped on gravel and stepped on, so burred was the chamber. PSA refused to fix it because gas block.
If you do decide to buy a PSA (I, for one, never will again) then make sure to remove all accessories and return it to factory condition before sending it back for warranty work. Also, deny that you ever accessorized it in the first place if they accuse you of such. PSA might still void your warranty (really, what COULDN'T be construed as "modification", something that PSA's warranty forbids?) but you might be able to get your gun fixed if you don't help them come up with an excuse to screw you.
Would they have honored the warranty if you ran it suppressed without one?
If putting a low-profile gas block on a PSA is a "modification" that voids their warranty, then I imagine that attaching a can is a similar "modification". I would deny that I'd ever used a can if asked by PSA. If you attach a different muzzle device in order to mount your can, put the A2 birdcage back on before sending it back for warranty work.
I have one of their carbine lowers stock except for trigger with the BA 18" rifle gas barrel on one of their blem uppers I bought and assembled. And it has an SLR AGB.Ah, so the barrel extension/BCG is common then, correct? That would be rather useful. If this works well then I could easily see myself putting together a good 6.5 or .260 upper for it. Let's say I did that--get a good barrel like from Criterion, put an adjustable gas block on it, etc. How much accuracy could I get out of it on having a top shelf barrel and good match ammo? This is something I don't know very much about, how much goes into a gas gun action that makes it more accurate.
Ah, so the barrel extension/BCG is common then, correct? That would be rather useful. If this works well then I could easily see myself putting together a good 6.5 or .260 upper for it. Let's say I did that--get a good barrel like from Criterion, put an adjustable gas block on it, etc. How much accuracy could I get out of it on having a top shelf barrel and good match ammo? This is something I don't know very much about, how much goes into a gas gun action that makes it more accurate.
The barrel, IMO, is what makes all the difference if you want something accurate. What I have been told by people that actually put these large frame ARs together is that there is no such thing as different barrel extensions. If you want to put together a 6.5 whatever, don't buy any BCG. Buy an Armalite as it will come with the smaller firing pin diameter and you won't have primer cratering. Just check the headspace to be certain it's safe.
I would expect sub-moa out of a rifle built this way using match ammo. Another topic on that is the fit of the barrel extension into the receiver. If it's loose, some people will use shim stock around the extension to make it a press fit or bed it with some flavor of Loc-tite. Some uppers, like BCM for an AR15 or Mega for large frame, have to be heated up to expand the aluminum for the extension to slip in.
The only other thing specific to using PSA is that you have to order DPMS low rail height when you order a rail. Mine is an MI keymod. When I built my upper PSA was still having teething problems with their uppers. Like the person with the bad chamber, that would suck.
Yes, it is the barrel/bolt that is the most important. I would not recommend trying to put together a mixmaster large frame AR, especially swapping AR-10 and SR-25/LR-308 pattern parts, unless you have a better understanding of the system as a whole.
Back to the original topic - I had a moment of weakness, I picked up one of the complete 18" SS uppers with a MI rail and mid-length gas, as well as another blem lower. I hope to go to the range in the next 2 weeks to test-fire this one.
The barrel profile is a very nice profile and overall it is a very handy package. It was obviously test fired from the factory.
Now I have the whole rifle in my possession, and so far it looks good. I suppose I could wish that there wasn't a perceptible bit of wobble (a fraction of a milimeter, mind you, but there none the less) between the upper and lower, but for this price point ($649 total) I suppose I can't expect LaRue like tolerances. It is noticeably lighter than most .308 AR's I've seen and held, barely perceptible in weight difference versus a standard 5.56 gun.
Now, to this matter of adjustable gas blocks: any thoughts about the difference between the Odin Works adjustable versus the SLR Sentry 7? My dealer has the former in stock but some people have recommended the latter.
Shoot it before you put a penny more in it.
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Exactly. Make sure it runs in stock, unaltered form.
OK, so very brief field test from today. It had a couple of hiccups from my reloads which I think just needed to be loaded a little hotter to break it in, but once it got going it fed very well. I think the first couple dozen rounds smoothed things out, kind of lapped it a bit. Bolt locked back on empty mag every time. I concur that it is indeed overgassed and I'll correct that with an adjustable gas block in a few weeks. Recoil impulse was sharper than I'm used to but not abusive--I think a different stock would improve that and once suppressed it will be very pleasant indeed. For something that's as light as my 5.56 guns but using the .308 I'm very pleased with it in that regard.
Another matter, however, came to my attention that has to do with me more than it. I very rarely shoot any centerfire rifle unsuppressed and I was quickly reminded of why: it's freaking annoying, and if your muffs get nudged up by the stock, it's painful! 18" .308 is a very useful configuration and I'm definitely keeping it for what it will do but the blast is just a taste I'll have to acquire for the moment until budget allows for a can mount and gas block.
The stock trigger SUCKS and when you're dealing with everything else too it really becomes a problem. Maybe I'm just too used to having really good ones, but this was heavy, gritty, and longer than any trigger I remember having. A simple ALG or BCM trigger I think will clean it up nicely for not a lot of money--I suppose I could be persuaded to later give it a G2S if it behaves itself well. Accuracy seemed good considering I was having so much trouble with the trigger. I noticed how badly it was throwing me off so in light of that I'm pleased with what I saw thus far. I'll give a number when I actually get one that truthfully reflects what it can do. I think PSA would do themselves a big favor to put a decent trigger like an ALG in their complete lowers--acknowledged of course that those typically seeking something in this price range will not be connoisseurs, but even someone without a lot of experience would get a lot out of having something easier to use well. An extra $35-50 would do wonders for making their product a lot better in a way that matters a lot.
Further to add, an oversized charging handle would also be very, very helpful too. The bigger rounds and bigger BCG have more surface area so more mechanical force is required to clear anything stuck. With the few hangups I had I REALLY wanted the bigger BCM handle I have on my 5.56 guns. It's so obvious I really question why standard small size charging handles are even made at all for 308.
All in all I'm impressed with having a functioning rifle for the price I paid for it. It is operable in stock configuration and once more ammo is run through it I expect function will smooth out considerably, which is a known phenomenon with many guns in general. I totally accept that it's not what a $2000-3500+ rifle would be like, and it's not fair to compare it to them either for that. This is just a simple utility minded rifle intended to simply put .308 bullets out there in a functional manner that can be further configured by anyone of the inclination to do so. It does exactly that. The industry is doing us a big favor putting out entry level .308's to build demand across a broader base which can better insure that they'll always be around versus a luxury good that can get wiped out very quickly when the wind changes.
With a couple of relatively inexpensive upgrades it will cost less than the next lowest priced option and will get me closer to where I want to go. I have a ALG ACT on order and will get a larger charging handle--so really ~$100 or $200 with the gas block is the cost of doing business here. Will run some more rounds through it just to get it broken in a little then get to work on the gas block and can mount. Later on I'll add a BAD lever as well because that's what I have on all of my 5.56 sized lowers.
If you have the, whatever they call it, M4 lower with the generic stock like I do, put a Kick Eez pad on it. Not so much for recoil per se but it keeps the butt from slipping around as much. I will at least put in an ear plug on my right as I know exactly what you mean about the earpro moving at the worst time.
My stock trigger wasn't as bad as yours from the sound of it. I'm a fan of the ALG ACT, does better than it should for the price. Maybe it's only in the 15 models that PSA offers an upgraded trigger? At their prices though, you're 400 ahead of the game before you start to add a thing.
I'm glad to hear it runs as it should. You definitely have plenty of gas to cycle it with a middy. No leaks then in the BCG from the sounds of it nor around their gas block. It will be good to hear a report on how well that barrel shoots.
Grand58742
05-30-17, 10:48
If you do decide to buy a PSA (I, for one, never will again) then make sure to remove all accessories and return it to factory condition before sending it back for warranty work. Also, deny that you ever accessorized it in the first place if they accuse you of such. PSA might still void your warranty (really, what COULDN'T be construed as "modification", something that PSA's warranty forbids?) but you might be able to get your gun fixed if you don't help them come up with an excuse to screw you.
So, let me get this straight... You took a factory installed block or A frame off your rifle and still expected it to be covered under warranty from PSA?
If I was to drop a new after market motor in my Mustang, should I still expect Ford to cover the vehicle under factory warranty?
So, let me get this straight... You took a factory installed block or A frame off your rifle and still expected it to be covered under warranty from PSA?
If I was to drop a new after market motor in my Mustang, should I still expect Ford to cover the vehicle under factory warranty?
Maybe for issues with the paint or the electronics but not the drive train.
To address specifically the matter of burrs and other chamber or barrel extension defects, how many people here inspect yours periodically with one of those endoscopes that plugs into your laptop or phone? I was looking at some on Amazon and it looks really useful but wondered if it really is or if it's like a cheap RC helicopter that works on Dec 25th and dies on the 26th.
So what kind of accuracy were you getting, and what optic were you running? What kind of reloads were you using? And how did the ejected brass look?
And what is the total round count? Trying to help this thread by accumulating objective data...
Got out the range finally. Shot the new complete upper I picked up on sale. It is an 18" mid-length, stainless barrel, nitride BCG, and MI Gen 2 SS15 rail, with A2 hider.
Swapped the same Weaver Tactical 3-10x scope/mount I have the other 18" I have. Cleaned/lubed bolt and swabbed barrel prior to range. Ran 70 rounds through it. Majority were my bulk 155 gr reloads with mil brass, over CCI-200 and H4895. Also shot 20 rounds of Tula. Function was 100%. Accuracy was garbage with the Tula, but averaged in the 1.5-2.0" range. Best was a little under 1.5" for 5 shots. Acceptable in my mind.
I also used Gen 2, Gen 3, and Gen 3 M118 PMAGS with no issues. Locked back 100%. This upper did produce some minor case head swipe on fired cases, but nothing that would preclude reloading.
I remain pleased with my gamble on these, at least for a hobby piece.
Got my ALG trigger in the lower, so more testing will be coming soon. Wanting to work up some hunting loads with the 165gr SST since they're inexpensive yet known to be very, very effective, so that should let me know a bit about what accuracy this will be capable of.
This thing has me seriously craving hunting opportunities with it. I mean BADLY craving it, like I want to spend every possible day out and start stacking deer, coyotes, woodchucks, whatever. I've gone about a decade and a half almost never hunting at all, like maybe 6-8 days total in the last 5 years, and now want to fill albums of pictures with it doing its job because now this is the tool I actually want for it. It's so weird but that's how it is, I guess having spent the last decade or so wanting to shoot more so I get only stuff that's fun to shoot often instead of the 45-50 week dust collectors. Having gone from 6 weekends a year hunting and maybe 3 shooting targets from age 5 to 21 then to 20-30+ per year practice and competition and maybe 1 if I'm lucky hunting from age 32 to now, maybe it's just the constant condition of wanting what you have least of.
So what kind of accuracy were you getting, and what optic were you running? What kind of reloads were you using? And how did the ejected brass look?
And what is the total round count? Trying to help this thread by accumulating objective data...OK, some updated info. So far about 50 rounds through it, all 145gr Privi ball over 44gr of 748. Only tested at 50 yards so far, which so far has been getting me around 1.5MOA--which given this is with a cheap bullet and no load development yet, I am pleased and have a LOT of possibility to look forward to. I've got 165gr SST's, 168gr AMax, and 130gr Speer varmint bullets to start working up loads with and as soon as I can get that loaded up, we will indeed see some progress.
WAY easier to shoot with the ALG ACT trigger in, and quite enjoyable, and it would be even more so if the thing wouldn't nudge my head muffs up so much. This is leading me to another point of discovery: DON'T settle for the standard m4 type stock on it, put something on it with more support for the cheek. I think having the plain m4 stock contributes a lot to the earpro nudging. As for the optic, I have a SWFA 10x scope on it right now. It's what I had laying around and it's quite functional for it.
As far as ejected brass, it looks OK but I do see a few nicks on the necks of a few pieces but not all and a mark but not a dent from the ejector. Not bad considering what it is--a SCAR17 or LaRue OBR it is not. I'm guessing they overgas it to shoot cheap surplus rounds. Quite honestly I wish they'd be so nice as to put an adjustable gas block on it as a standard feature right out of the box, but I suppose their premise is that those buying this kind of rifle aren't the type to want one.
I will have to follow up on these points after I get an adjustable gas block and can mount on it thus to be shooting it in the form which I choose for any rifle in its role.
Get yourself some foam in-the-ear plugs. For twenty dollars or so Amazon will bring you 200 pairs of Howard Leight Max plugs. Comfortable and dont get bumped out of position like muffs do.
The PA-10 is a great kit project for builders or buyers if you want to find out what can go wrong with these guns, and then spend a lot of time trouble-shooting and fixing them.
When you see a complete AR10 sold for $699, ask how much engineering, testing, and evaluation went into the product.
How extensive is the QC program for critical dimensions like chambers, gas ports, bore uniformity, vent holes, chrome carrier bore dims, gas ring metallurgy, spring metallurgy, etc. when you can just say, "Send it back and we'll replace it."
The AR10 world isn't like the AR15 where you can ride the coattails of established dims and the result of de-bugging after 60 years of constant military RDT&E.
From an engineering standpoint, it's a totally different rifle due to the 7.62 NATO cartridge characteristics in the bore and gas system, BCG weights, spring rates, Bolt Carrier travel distance, cartridge shape, projectile weight stack in the magazine, recoil effects on the mechanical interaction of the parts, particularly the magazine and cartridge stack.
Look at how long it took Knight's to get the SR25s to a level of reliability that is acceptable. Look at how many small tweaks have been made to the vent relief hole locations, angles, chamber dimensions, gas port locations, gas port diameters, gas rings, magazines, bolt catch metallurgy and inspections, mag catches, buffers, recoil springs, gas blocks, gas tubes, carrier guide rails...basically every aspect of the gun needed more research, development, testing, evaluation, and incorporation into production after extensive testing across fleet samples. That kind of work costs insane amounts of money because you need competent engineering and testing staff who require higher-than-average salaries, with tens of thousands of rounds and fleet sizes for rifle samples.
No way any of that is happening for $699 per rifle. Buyer gets to be the tester at that point. As long as people understand that and are ok with that, it's an acceptable builder's/tester's kit rifle. Should be fine for those who may plink or hunt with it a few times a year max. Not something I would expect to crank out a high round count successfully.
High round count on these rifles is a little more expensive than on 5.56 so it's going to take a minute to find that out. I don't think anyone here is under any illusions as to what this rifle is. You get what kind pay for.
I don't think anyone here, myself included, is trying to say this is a duty-grade weapon... Without a question it is not that well refined.
But for a fun range gun that I plink with instead of shooting my $$$ precision 308 AR, it is fun to tinker with. PSA is shooting for a certain customer (which M4C is not necessarily) and I think they have hit that target.
I will say I have seen a lot of people struggle at the range with cheap large frame AR's, especially DPMS, and so far mine have worked much better than that.
Data collection will continue...
High round count on these rifles is a little more expensive than on 5.56 so it's going to take a minute to find that out. I don't think anyone here is under any illusions as to what this rifle is. You get what kind pay for.
Agreed.
I think some people are forgetting the price point here and comparing it to a SR25 or SCAR17. There is a big difference. PSA has its market and so far has been successful. If you're not a fan of their products, its your choice. But majority of the shooter population is the casual shooter with a low budget. I don't see that many guys rockin SCAR's or Knights on the range...
The PA-10 is a great kit project for builders or buyers if you want to find out what can go wrong with these guns, and then spend a lot of time trouble-shooting and fixing them.
When you see a complete AR10 sold for $699, ask how much engineering, testing, and evaluation went into the product.
How extensive is the QC program for critical dimensions like chambers, gas ports, bore uniformity, vent holes, chrome carrier bore dims, gas ring metallurgy, spring metallurgy, etc. when you can just say, "Send it back and we'll replace it."
The AR10 world isn't like the AR15 where you can ride the coattails of established dims and the result of de-bugging after 60 years of constant military RDT&E.
From an engineering standpoint, it's a totally different rifle due to the 7.62 NATO cartridge characteristics in the bore and gas system, BCG weights, spring rates, Bolt Carrier travel distance, cartridge shape, projectile weight stack in the magazine, recoil effects on the mechanical interaction of the parts, particularly the magazine and cartridge stack.
Look at how long it took Knight's to get the SR25s to a level of reliability that is acceptable. Look at how many small tweaks have been made to the vent relief hole locations, angles, chamber dimensions, gas port locations, gas port diameters, gas rings, magazines, bolt catch metallurgy and inspections, mag catches, buffers, recoil springs, gas blocks, gas tubes, carrier guide rails...basically every aspect of the gun needed more research, development, testing, evaluation, and incorporation into production after extensive testing across fleet samples. That kind of work costs insane amounts of money because you need competent engineering and testing staff who require higher-than-average salaries, with tens of thousands of rounds and fleet sizes for rifle samples.
No way any of that is happening for $699 per rifle. Buyer gets to be the tester at that point. As long as people understand that and are ok with that, it's an acceptable builder's/tester's kit rifle. Should be fine for those who may plink or hunt with it a few times a year max. Not something I would expect to crank out a high round count successfully.
All that being said, is one really all that far out in the wasteland putting a high quality barrel and JP's BCG in their upper and a decent trigger in the lower?
While I agree that the AR10 hasn't had 60 years worth of massive crowdsource R&D it is catching up and a lot of the lessons learned are being applied. While it can be said that there was a 60 year head start in 5.56 the reality of it is that far and away the majority of it has been in the last 13 years. Before that it was largely one company making a 20" gun in 3-4 iterations for 30-40 years and then just a couple of companies making 14.5" and 16" guns for about a decade, all running the same ammo then a slightly updated version of more of the same ammo. Does a company need to shell out billions of dollars and a dozen years in R&D themselves to learn what's already been found out? Maybe then but not now. This isn't our first trip to the moon anymore. Sure it's not filling in pages in a coloring book but but it's also not like sneaking a stolen rifle through Checkpoint Charlie in a suitcase or fishing a downed MiG out of the Mediterranean and scraping the barnacles off.
Let's say a SR25 runs the life of two barrels, 16K rounds--so let's say that's about 3K rounds per $1K of cash spent on the gun. Fair? Or what is the number? 4K per $1K? 5K? Then maybe say you pay $1000 for X number of rounds per single failure. What's that number? Then we should perhaps compare intelligently on just how far those dollars and time spent actually goes vs. another offering and that company's efforts (or lack thereof) towards the same. I'm told the saying in car racing is that speed costs money, how fast do you want to go. Sure, their OEM upper isn't extraordinary and absolutely isn't up to snuff vs. LMT or LaRue or KAC, but as mentioned nor is it intended to have 8K+ through it in a year or two. But what IS the number? 2K is, as you point out, well within the half decade or more round count of the hunting only types. But might it do 4K or 5K? My vision for this OEM .308 upper is hunting mostly but with 168gr Amax or similar for fun and skill building--not 5.56 volumes, but something more than bolt gun. A 6.5CM build is definitely on the to-do list.
I have no particular invested loyalty with any brand (other than it must fit my budget constraints whatever they may be at the time--reality is reality) but if it works I use it and if it doesn't I figure out what does and use that instead. Maybe PSA has and maybe they haven't put 200K rounds between say 30-50 barrels over 2-3 years to test out everything--but if it fails me and all I have to do is wrench out the barrel and put one in that's $300-400 that does have all the stuff figured out (my money's on Criterion, JP, LaRue, et al. very much having figured it out) and I'm still $2K+ ahead, have I really lost anything? Yeah, maybe if I had bullets whizzing by my head at the time--so I don't live that life as my 9-5, but must I? I'm just a guy punching paper and banging steel, putting venison and pork in the freezer, and for when called upon, the rifle behind the next blade of grass to put holes in General Gage, Kaiser Wilhelm, Tojo, Grant/Sherman, or Mohammed's stooges should they decide to show up someday.
I don't think anyone here, myself included, is trying to say this is a duty-grade weapon... Without a question it is not that well refined.
But for a fun range gun that I plink with instead of shooting my $$$ precision 308 AR, it is fun to tinker with. PSA is shooting for a certain customer (which M4C is not necessarily) and I think they have hit that target.
I will say I have seen a lot of people struggle at the range with cheap large frame AR's, especially DPMS, and so far mine have worked much better than that.
Data collection will continue...
M4C and all of the advice you receive on here is free, so keep that in mind when you are evaluating the customers and the advice they dish out.
All that being said, is one really all that far out in the wasteland putting a high quality barrel and JP's BCG in their upper and a decent trigger in the lower?
While I agree that the AR10 hasn't had 60 years worth of massive crowdsource R&D it is catching up and a lot of the lessons learned are being applied. While it can be said that there was a 60 year head start in 5.56 the reality of it is that far and away the majority of it has been in the last 13 years. Before that it was largely one company making a 20" gun in 3-4 iterations for 30-40 years and then just a couple of companies making 14.5" and 16" guns for about a decade, all running the same ammo then a slightly updated version of more of the same ammo. Does a company need to shell out billions of dollars and a dozen years in R&D themselves to learn what's already been found out? Maybe then but not now. This isn't our first trip to the moon anymore. Sure it's not filling in pages in a coloring book but but it's also not like sneaking a stolen rifle through Checkpoint Charlie in a suitcase or fishing a downed MiG out of the Mediterranean and scraping the barnacles off.
Let's say a SR25 runs the life of two barrels, 16K rounds--so let's say that's about 3K rounds per $1K of cash spent on the gun. Fair? Or what is the number? 4K per $1K? 5K? Then maybe say you pay $1000 for X number of rounds per single failure. What's that number? Then we should perhaps compare intelligently on just how far those dollars and time spent actually goes vs. another offering and that company's efforts (or lack thereof) towards the same. I'm told the saying in car racing is that speed costs money, how fast do you want to go. Sure, their OEM upper isn't extraordinary and absolutely isn't up to snuff vs. LMT or LaRue or KAC, but as mentioned nor is it intended to have 8K+ through it in a year or two. But what IS the number? 2K is, as you point out, well within the half decade or more round count of the hunting only types. But might it do 4K or 5K? My vision for this OEM .308 upper is hunting mostly but with 168gr Amax or similar for fun and skill building--not 5.56 volumes, but something more than bolt gun. A 6.5CM build is definitely on the to-do list.
Any serious company tests more than one gun at a time. A typical testing protocol involves at least a 10 gun pyramid test regimen, where 10 prototypes are shot in high volume by shooters, not mechanical rests. As soon as a problem is encountered with 1 rifle, they address that problem and determine if it's incidental to just that gun, or if the others have the issue as well. If it is fleet-wide, a correction is made to all the guns before waisting another round. Then repeat the process until as many bugs are worked out initially.
On the military side, once this is done, the rifles will eventually go to Alaska for arctic testing.
My take on it is that PSA said, "We'll just do some initial fitting and test-firing, and let the customers do the long-term testing." Not saying they should or shouldn't do this, but price point indicates that decision. Customers started experiencing fit problems from the get-go with the first batch of PA-10s, which was addressed with the second by PSA. That's still in the mechanical fitting stage of development, not even function.
Then consider that a huge portion of your customer base will be shooting the rifles in a similar manner, while many scenarios won't be experienced maybe for years, where potential problems will show up. Most people can't afford to feed hundreds of .308 Winchester shot in volume per range session, so 3-5rd groups and maybe a little plinking are the norm. They know their customer base.
For that target market, their approach just makes business sense, rather than doing like Daniel Defense or Savage/Federal did and invest insane amounts of money in ammo and engineering, testing, and evaluation. DD spent well over a year shooting the DDV5. Savage said they cringe when they think about the ammo budget they spent on the MSR-10.
Update from today:
Got the Odin Works adjustable gas block on it and suppressor mount, running it with my SpecWar762. MAN what a difference that makes! I really enjoy it a lot more now and can settle down and do some business with it. Just to confirm optic zero I ran some more 145gr ball w748 commercial brass. This was very nice, had several rounds almost touching. At first it really dinged the brass up so I dialed the gas block back a couple notches and it decreased a good bit, still might cinch it down a couple more later--I wonder just how many clicks above closed this will need to be. I gotta say midlength on a .308 is just stupid. Yeah I know it's for shooting surplus 7.62x51 which was loaded weak for FAL's, but seriously, I'll say it again, OVERGASSED SUCKS!!
I have seen other people say that shooting a .308 AR is more demanding of shooting fundamentals vs. a 5.56 gun, and I can believe it. I know the rifle is capable of better accuracy than I was able to give it today, but even so one of a couple of 165gr SST loads were giving me 1.3 MOA 5 round groups (4064 backed off a couple grains to 42.8 in LC brass w/ CCI 200 primer). I've got another dozen or so loads to try (XBR and CFE) that I carelessly forgot to put in my range bag today, and I know that there is more capability in this barrel.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a mid-length for an 18" barrel. Either it is gassed correctly or not. From a reliability standpoint I don't think that these barrels are too badly overgassed. I am sure it is so they can run with stuff like Tula steel case. The adjustable gas block is without question very helpful though with the suppressor.
As for surplus ammo - most of it is actually NOT weak, as it is designed to make NATO-spec velocities. And there would be no reason to run weak loads in an FAL, they are quite robust and can tolerate a steady diet of full-throttle loads.
Your load for the 165 SST's sounds similar to what many would consider a standard accuracy load for a semi 308 - a 165-168 gr bullet, LC brass, and a moderate load of 4064. Reasonable easy on the gun and brass, and accurate as well. If you have some Varget or H4895 those are also worth a try.
Next time I am out, I will be stretching it out to 550 yds. My plan is to shoot both the 18" CHF rifle-length and the 18" SS mid-length.
got wind of the sale going on now and grabbed the 18" midlength railed upper and a lower. I've never been interested in .308 gas gun before but couldn't pass this up at this price. so I need to ask a stupid question (I know, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people)...
is the RE on these guns the same size as AR15?
and if so, would an A2 stock and buffer help with the overgassed condition?..
RE ? ... sorry not familiar with that one.
RE=Receiver Extension (i.e. Buffer Tube)
RE ? ... sorry not familiar with that one.
The .308 rifle buffer is shorter then a AR15 one.
The AR-10 buffer is 5 3/16″ (5.188″) long and weigh's 5.4 ounces.
The AR-15 buffer is 5 7/8″ (5.875″) long and weighs 5.2 ounces.
And I tried your idea... and frankly, I wasn't impressed with the results.
Ultimately, an adjustable gas block is the best solution for the .308 "AR10" large volume of gas.
A adjustable gas block will work with any stock, spring, and buffer weight.... I strongly suggest people try the gas block prior to buying buffers that may or may not give the results they are looking for.
I general, I tried a "LR-308 CARBINE HEAVY BUFFER" 5.2oz with the OEM configuration ( carbine stock ).
Then switched to a PSA PA10 rifle length buffer system and a PRS GenIII stock ( which added just under 2 lbs to the rifle, which also should have helped the recoil impulse )... didn't really help IMHO.
Then changed over to the KAK 9.3oz AR308 buffer and a Tubbs Flatwire .308 spring... still wasn't effecting the recoil the same way it would with a 5.56 AR15..
So I then added the SLR Adjustable gas block.... should have tried that in the first place ( and saved a bunch of money )...night and day difference.
The cyclic action speed is much more in tune with what I would expect from a .308 AR now.
I say all this so people will not waste time and money on parts that may not meet their expectations... ( they didn't meet mine, but this is my first .308 AR ... so live and learn )
sorry, RE = receiver extension (buffer tube)
anyway, I already have the AR15 A2 stock, buffer, and spring or I wouldn't even be considering wasting time or money on this. I've read the criticisms of the PA-10 and accept that this isn't going to be a combat rifle, I just want to punch holes in paper and tasty animals with it.
I'll go ahead and replace the carbine RE and stock because I'm one of those goofballs that actually like a fixed stock, and if it still shows signs of being overgassed, I'm sure I can develop a load it likes that may even be acceptably accurate. :cool:
and I'm not in adjustable gas block denial, I got the 18" midlength because a can is in the cards so after letting my credit card cool down a bit, I'll mount the AGB. once I get it all set up, I'll come back and compare notes...
thanks for your help...
To drag this back from the dead...
Some long term follow up - have shot both of my 18" uppers over the past year. Both continue to run 100%. Round count is still not that high yet as I have been shooting my 6.5 CM AR more at long range.
More notably I did stretch the 18" FN CHF upper out to ~760 yards. Accuracy was certainly acceptable as I was able to make 70% hits on a 15" Target at that range in 10-15 mph winds. My 155 grain load is very mild though (2580 fps?) and starts running out of steam much further than that.
I have been meaning to do some load workup with heavier bullets/hotter loads for these 2 guns, but my 6.5 CM just shoots so well it has been put on the backburner.
Bravo Sierra
02-10-19, 09:11
Well, mines a piece of shit. The barrel started rotating and caused the bolt to warp on the lugs. So inspect you bolt real close. Probably around maybe 250 to 300 rds. Oh and they dont make it easy sending them back. Ive been waiting like a month for them to send me some number to put on my return label. **** them, never again.
Bravo Sierra
02-10-19, 09:20
Oh and the wierd white corrosion under the crooked gas tube, forgot to mention that.
How did the barrel start rotating? Is the extension loose in the upper or the barrel loosening from the extension? FWIW both of mine have MI rails with steel barrel nuts, they have been rock solid.
Bravo Sierra
02-10-19, 12:52
How did the barrel start rotating? Is the extension loose in the upper or the barrel loosening from the extension? FWIW both of mine have MI rails with steel barrel nuts, they have been rock solid.
I have no idea. I just know that the lugs are bent on the corners in the direction that the barrel is rotating. I originally thought that it was just the handguard that was moving, so i removed it, i have the MI hanguard as well. Then i noticed the gas tube was crooked, so i went to pull the the bcg out and noticed it wouldnt budge. I had to rip it out of the upper. Upon inspection i saw the bolt lugs and surmised that the barrel must be rotating.
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