6 o'clock hold with only wind-adjust rear

[johnnyrebel87]

Hi all, I have a question. I was recently shooting steel with my 10.5" at 250 yards. I am sighted at 100, I could aim at the top of the target (it's just a 10" round circle) and could connect easily. But I almost don't have much target to aim at. I am wanting to shoot further out, and seeing as this is a "headshot" sized target, and my sights are not the yardage-adjustable rear (it's a standard daniel defense sight set), I am wondering how I can dial so that I can actually see the target I'm aiming at at 300+ yards.

I can only dial elevation on my front sight. I was considering maybe doing a 6 o clock hold so that I can actually see my target, but I'm not sure how that would work further out. I believe the DD front sight clicks are 1.5moa each, so I could dial it one click down for a 6 o clock hold, but what would happen at 2 and 300 yards? Since I'm not dialing the range (which would keep it as 1.5moa off throughout the range, I think), I would just compound how far off I am. I might buy a carry handle or other elevation adjustable rear sight for more irons practice at some point in time, but it will only be DD sights for now (I have them on 2 AR's).

I just need a simple way to be able to see the target (as in not obscured by my sight post) at 300 yards or more. Maybe something I could leave the AR sighted in at, or if not, just dial it for shooting further-out. I am going to pick up a AR silhouette so that I don't have to only use my AR round steel at longer distances (that 10" looks mighty small once I get a couple hundred yards out). I am going to chuck up on my front sight post and turn it down to a smaller diameter this week so I will have a smaller post to use, and I think that will help, but dialing a 6 o clock hold, or something else, with a fixed elevation rear is what I need to figure out. Remember, this is a 10" steel.

Thanks!!

[GH41]

Read this thread 2-3 times! https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65679-AR-15-Zeros-and-Trajectories I like the 50-200 zero but I shoot a RDS and float the target at all ranges. Others may work better for you. What MOA will the rifle shoot on paper at 250.

[Eurodriver]

Homie,

I applaud you for using irons to get some distance work in. It is a lost and rare art - even on a good forum such as this.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for but I simply suggest you get an LMT /chopped carry handle rear sight. My assumption is you're not using the folding sights -but the fixed. If this is true there is no downside to going with the LMT except cost. You will zero at 100 using the RBIZ method and simply remember your adjustment for specific distances. You won't ever have to hold again. :)

[El Cid]

F2S addresses the irons here discussing the 100m zero. He zeroes irons 2 inches high to allow more of he target to be visible.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?107572-Zen-of-the-100-Meter-Zero

[johnnyrebel87]

Thanks guys.

Maybe I will just give in and get a rear like that.


I have skimmed those threads before and didn't remember this specifically. 2 inches high, huh. Maybe I go 1 click for 1.5 inches and see how that goes. I will FULLY read those threads and pick up what I apparently missed.

I was surprised that I could even hit head shots with a 10.5" AR and irons, I always just use optics, so I'm trying to use irons more.

A 20" bcm with FSB and fixed stock is on my list for solely iron shooting, as is a cheapie .22lr with irons.

[johnnyrebel87]

the other option is the flip up KAC USMC rear sights for about 40 bucks. I had one before but only zerod at 100 and never tried using it further out. But that LMT looks nice and solid.

[GH41]

the other option is the flip up KAC USMC rear sights for about 40 bucks. I had one before but only zerod at 100 and never tried using it further out. But that LMT looks nice and solid.

What part of China is this $40 KAC sight made in? You are losing street cred at the speed of light.

[johnnyrebel87]

They pop up on ebay from time to time still in the .mil packaging with KAC card. They walk away from uncle sam. From the same sellers that end up with MRE's, beat up nylon gear, etc. Just like the interceptor OTV with soft armor and rifle plates (and neck/groin stuff), big otis cleaning kit (with the gerber 600 or something), other random stuff I bought from guys that walked off bases with them years ago, that I paid a few bucks for.

Don't really care about my street cred with strangers online, for what it's worth.

But anyways, they do appear and they do go for cheap.

[johnnyrebel87]

and I haven't shot at paper at 250. I zeroed at 100, was shooting about a 2.5 inch group off a ruck. I immediately drove back to 200 and shot at steel, it was easy so I drove back to 250 (max I could get without moving the target) and shot a couple 20rd mags at it, still easy but I could tell I might be aiming off the target any further.

[sinister]

Lots of options.

http://cdn-us-ec.yottaa.net/53ff2f503c881650e20004c9/www.brownells.com/v~13.6b/userdocs/products/p_100003702_1.jpg?yocs=p_&yoloc=us
https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/217/217298.jpg
http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Dueck-Defense-AR-15-Rapid-Transition-Sights.jpg?9299a0
http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2015/11/KNIGHTS-RB-6-661x496.jpg
http://jerkingthetrigger.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/LMT-Defense-Flip-Up-Sight-Rear.jpg

[johnnyrebel87]

Thanks. I found out what I needed, sight in high at 100. I think I will stick with my DD sights on ARs and do a lmt carry handle type rear when I build a 20".

[Uprange41]

Thanks. I found out what I needed, sight in high at 100. I think I will stick with my DD sights on ARs and do a lmt carry handle type rear when I build a 20".

A 3" high 100m zero is what I've landed on myself over the last several months of primarily running an A1 rear sight.

Paul Howe has an outstanding write-up and demonstration;
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/thebattlefieldzerofullpictures.pdf

[johnnyrebel87]

Beautiful! Thats awesome, looks like I will dial 3" up tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks man.

[T2C]

You can easily calculate a rough zero with a little more information. What ammunition are you shooting? You want to zero so you can hold at 6 O'clock on 10" steel at 300 yards?

[markm]

Homie,

I applaud you for using irons to get some distance work in. It is a lost and rare art - even on a good forum such as this.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for but I simply suggest you get an LMT /chopped carry handle rear sight. My assumption is you're not using the folding sights -but the fixed. If this is true there is no downside to going with the LMT except cost. You will zero at 100 using the RBIZ method and simply remember your adjustment for specific distances. You won't ever have to hold again. :)

100% AGREED!!!

My vision is slipping a little lately. But I walked my irons out to 500 meters on the High Power range a few weeks back. I'll hold at 300 meters, but start dialing up at 400 and 500 meters.

[mlberry]

Assume the following: Using standard iron carry handle sights, 6 o'clock hold, 100 yard range, rounds strike 3-4 in high from point of aim.

Isn't this essentially a 300 yard zero?

[johnnyrebel87]

You can easily calculate a rough zero with a little more information. What ammunition are you shooting? You want to zero so you can hold at 6 O'clock on 10" steel at 300 yards?

Its m193. I would be interrsted to know.

[markm]

Its m193. I would be interrsted to know.

Have you considered switching to a heavier bullet like 77 gr or 75 gr? M193 will get you hits at those distances, but it's a poor selection for a short barrel. (it's a poor selection for a long barrel too, but a shorty really robs its effectiveness) However, if you're after target shooting enjoyment only, and want to keep it cost effective, m193 is ok.

I still am 100% behind the A2/A3 field sight idea with a 100 yard zero. From there, you just memorize your come ups since a 10.5 won't match the meter marks on the wheel anyway.

[T2C]

Its m193. I would be interrsted to know.

M193 is not match accurate, but it does OK out to 400 yards when fired through a rifle and 300 yards when fired through a 14.5" carbine.

These are rough numbers based on a 10.5" barrel with M193.

325 yard zero.
300 yard POI = + 3.33", which would hit at the lower third of a 10" steel plate aiming 6 O'clock hold.
200 yard POI = + 9", hold under roughly 1/2 the diameter of the 10" plate.
100 yard POI = + 6.33", hold under roughly 1/4 the diameter of the 10" plate
50 yard POI = + 2.5"
25 POI = POA

I love shooting with iron sights. Several years ago, I completed maintenance on a M16A1 for one of our personnel. For grins, we went to the range and I zeroed her rifle at 350 yards. Using a 6 O'clock hold on a 20" W x 40" H steel plate, we made consistent hits at 200, 250 and 300 yards with M193 ball. Using center hold we made consistent hits (more hits than misses) at 350 and 400 yards.

Before we left the range, I zeroed the rifle at 200 yards with her 55g SP duty ammunition and she made consistent hits out to 300 yards using center hold.

[johnnyrebel87]

Thanks guys!

M193 is not my "carry load", but my "I have lots of ammo and now I dont feel guilty shooting it since trump won" ammo.

So I went out this morning to the a pathetic excuse for a range. Its 75 yards with a couple dirt hills and a table.

I sighted roughly 3" high at 100 (shooting off the hood of my jeep). I then went back to 179 yards in the brush, sat on a dirt hill, and shot. It was an inch or two above POA, very satisfactory. I dont know if that poi was because of me, or where it was supposed to hit.

Wish I had a bench or a rest, but once in the brush prone wouldnt work, so had to shoot unsupported sitting position (and not the "official" sitting position) at a black target in the shadow of a big berm. Group was embarassing, about 10" wide and about 4" to the right of POA, only half the shots on the target. I have a usgi nylon sling in route so maybe that will help. I didnt expect to have but 1 or 2 shots on the target seeing as how I could just barely catch a glimpse of it.

Went to 25 yards off-hand and shots went to POA, or very close.

Id say this zero works well for me, once I get to the ranch again instead of this poor range, I will try on steel at 300 and beyond.


Thanks for all the help. After this morning, I am definitely going to buy a 20" bcm and use a removeable carry handle and usgi sling and practice irons more. Lots of fun.

Will swap the ridiculously heavy trigger out soon. Half thr time I think the safety is on.

And my new glock 43 trigger seems even heavier.


And my new dead air mask sounds great on my 22/45 with all volquartsen and tandrmkross parts, shot 1.5" at 25 yards and can hit out to 100 easily.

Fun morning!

[johnnyrebel87]

M193 is not match accurate, but it does OK out to 400 yards when fired through a rifle and 300 yards when fired through a 14.5" carbine.

These are rough numbers based on a 10.5" barrel with M193.

325 yard zero.
300 yard POI = + 3.33", which would hit at the lower third of a 10" steel plate aiming 6 O'clock hold.
200 yard POI = + 9", hold under roughly 1/2 the diameter of the 10" plate.
100 yard POI = + 6.33", hold under roughly 1/4 the diameter of the 10" plate
50 yard POI = + 2.5"
25 POI = POA

I love shooting with iron sights. Several years ago, I completed maintenance on a M16A1 for one of our personnel. For grins, we went to the range and I zeroed her rifle at 350 yards. Using a 6 O'clock hold on a 20" W x 40" H steel plate, we made consistent hits at 200, 250 and 300 yards with M193 ball. Using center hold we made consistent hits (more hits than misses) at 350 and 400 yards.

Before we left the range, I zeroed the rifle at 200 yards with her 55g SP duty ammunition and she made consistent hits out to 300 yards using center hold.

Thanks buddy