View Full Version : Combat vets: most critical area of an M16-series to keep clean?
While I was in the Army I got fortunate and didn't have anyone trying to kill me for the duration of my enlistment. That said, I know weapons fairly well and am a stickler for cleanliness. If I had to pick one critical area to keep clean on an AR-type weapon (from things I've read and a personal carbine class experience) it would be the chamber area, with the most critical tool being the chamber brush. Keep in mind this is to keep the weapon functioning, not a final or detail cleaning prior to storage.
Failures-to-extract can put you out of the class/fight real quick, and are generally a PIA to clear. While a failure-to-eject can be a pain too, it is much more simple and quick to clear than a stuck case in your chamber.
Opinions?
The bolt, to include the firing pin channel or whatever the real term for that is. Tons of CLP.
Eurodriver
01-02-17, 14:59
The inside.
TexasAggie2005
01-02-17, 15:05
The inside.
Shit. So I should stop scrubbing the buttstock?
Now that is some funny stuff right there :)
Yea; chamber area with brush, swab and compressed air after a range session.
Bolt face and lugs even while at the range with a stiff tooth brush and lube.
Clarence
Renegade04
01-02-17, 16:01
The bolt, to include the firing pin channel or whatever the real term for that is. Tons of CLP.
This along with the cleaning the chamber with a chamber brush. Both things can be done expediently in the field to keep you in a fight. For after a range session, a good thorough cleaning never hurts. A clean weapon is a happy weapon.
I've gotten out of the habit of regularly cleaning my ARs. In the six to seven months out of the year that I'm able to shoot, I put just over 2200 rounds through the "6920" and 1500 rounds through a BCM this past year without any problems. I just keep lubing up the BCG and FCG before and after a range session. I do push on the ejector plunger a few times and squeeze the extractor to make sure it moves. I also do that field test on the BCG to see if the gas rings are still doing their thing. So far so good. I'll probably wait until I get to 4000 rounds or so before I do anything drastic like cleaning the bore!
Up until a couple of years ago I used to spend about 45 minutes cleaning my 6720--the whole nine yards. Out of curiosity I went to the other extreme: with a pull through, a brass brush 3 times through the bore, about 4-5 patches, with the last one coming out pretty clean. A quick inspection of the BCG and slop some lube on the bolt lugs and bearing surfaces about every 4 times out. Finished with pulling an oily patch through the barrel until next time. Prior to firing, pulled a dry patch through the barrel. About every 4-500 rounds--when I'm in the mood, do a thorough cleaning; Sweet's 7.62 copper removal if I'm ambitious. Zero issues.
As Jeff Cooper said, I enjoy cleaning guns as much as I like slopping the hogs. I won't stoop to a boresnake, though.
https://youtu.be/0Ej-xCW_YQs
I'd listen to this guy. I'm not saying never clean your rifle, but I think the OCD cleaning regimen that most military goes through is unnecessary. I think often rifles are damaged by people trying to unnecessarily remove every trace of carbon. Proper lubrication is more important than keeping it squeaky clean.
Doc Safari
01-02-17, 16:45
https://youtu.be/0Ej-xCW_YQs
I'd listen to this guy. I'm not saying never clean your rifle, but I think the OCD cleaning regimen that most military goes through is unnecessary. I think often rifles are damaged by people trying to unnecessarily remove every trace of carbon. Proper lubrication is more important than keeping it squeaky clean.
I guess I'm GTG, then. I've been cleaning mine about every 1,000 rounds but I keep it lubed and relube it frequently.
As Jeff Cooper said, I enjoy cleaning guns as much as I like slopping the hogs. I won't stoop to a boresnake, though.
What's wrong with a boresnake? Not being snarky, genuinely curious. I use them on everything, seem to work good.
Not a combat vet, but a vet.
1. Chamber. I have had fail to chamber because of junk in the leade.
2. Bolt face and lugs.
When I clean, I just wipe the insides with a paper towel and re-lube, but the chamber gets a REAL good cleaning.
The boresnake, in my opinion, is the single most revolutionary cleaning tool for a weapon with a barrel. I will never look back.
https://youtu.be/0Ej-xCW_YQs
I'd listen to this guy. I'm not saying never clean your rifle, but I think the OCD cleaning regimen that most military goes through is unnecessary. I think often rifles are damaged by people trying to unnecessarily remove every trace of carbon. Proper lubrication is more important than keeping it squeaky clean.
I'm there as well! Too many classes with Pat. I generally give them a once over once a year and haven't had any problems in the 8-10 years since I've been doing it.
KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 09:49
The question itself assumes that once agreement is reached, that a person should focus on that area and pay less attention to the rest- this is known as "setting yourself up for failure."
If a survey of drivers... or even real-deal statistical analysis... tells me that most roadside breakdowns are flat tires... do I have to change the oil any less?
Am I going to embark on a cross-country road trip without giving the vehicle a once over?
Maybe I am...
People do it all the time- if you have a quality vehicle, with all OEM parts installed by manufacturer, and J.D. Power says it's a reliable car... why not just jump in and GO?
Screw it.
That ain't how I roll though- because I practice the discipline.
I'm there as well! Too many classes with Pat. I generally give them a once over once a year and haven't had any problems in the 8-10 years since I've been doing it.
My point is this- it isn't just "gun cleaning" it's PMCS.
If you're not cleaning, lubricating, and inspecting your weapon on a regular basis, then you have NO IDEA what it's level of serviceability is.
This whole "I never clean my gun" thing is an offshoot of the snake-oil lube scheme, and lube wars.
It needs to go away. Immediately.
The question itself assumes that once agreement is reached, that a person should focus on that area and pay less attention to the rest- this is known as "setting yourself up for failure."
If a survey of drivers... or even real-deal statistical analysis... tells me that most roadside breakdowns are flat tires... do I have to change the oil any less?
Am I going to embark on a cross-country road trip without giving the vehicle a once over?
Maybe I am...
People do it all the time- if you have a quality vehicle, with all OEM parts installed by manufacturer, and J.D. Power says it's a reliable car... why not just jump in and GO?
Screw it.
That ain't how I roll though- because I practice the discipline.
My point is this- it isn't just "gun cleaning" it's PMCS.
If you're not cleaning, lubricating, and inspecting your weapon on a regular basis, then you have NO IDEA what it's level of serviceability is.
This whole "I never clean my gun" thing is an offshoot of the snake-oil lube scheme, and lube wars.
It needs to go away. Immediately.
I wasn't trying to open a clean/no-clean debate with this thread, as I know they usually end up in pissing matches. I also wasn't trying to even remotely imply that focus be only on one specific area; I am a clean-nut with my guns, so it was more an opinion-seeking venture from guys who have been in austere conditions with their weapons (and a combat environment certainly qualifies in that regard).
Aside from a broken part or loose gas key, which can be pretty difficult to "fix" in the field or a firefight, I can't think of any malfunction that can put a weapon out of commission like a failure-to-extract (stuck spent cartridge). That particular malfunction directly contributed to American lives being lost in Vietnam, so you will see this is why I posed the question like I did and opinion is that the chamber/locking lug area is the most critical to keep clean, with the chamber brush being the answer to that.
But yeah, I'm 110% on board with a regular cleaning regimen and it actually being part of a PMCS one would conduct with his weapon.
Bolded part---at the risk of starting said pissing contest, yes, I emphatically agree.
QuickStrike
01-03-17, 14:41
edited: unnecessary and snarky comment. Must have been grumpy that day.
It's taken me quite some time to get away from that white glove inspection clean that I used to do every time I shot one of my rifles. The struggle was real. It took me awhile to be able to go out and shoot and throw my rifle in the safe when I'm finished. I still clean them quite often. Probably more than I need to, but I'm definitely not as anal as I once was.
KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 16:09
That particular malfunction directly contributed to American lives being lost in Vietnam, so you will see this is why I posed the question like I did and opinion is that the chamber/locking lug area is the most critical to keep clean, with the chamber brush being the answer to that.
Yes, but it all has to be clean, and it all has to be in good working order.
Personally, I can't even isolate one part or piece to discuss, because while a tiny pinch of fine particulate sand can more easily find it's way into the chamber area of the barrel extension, but a single grain of sand can find it's way under the extractor and stop up the gun. Carbon accumulates where it does, and over time can stop the gun. Gummed up lube can stop the gun.
I understand the question, but I don't like where the discussion eventually goes.
It's the same as asking for the most critical inspection point before a NASCAR race, Cave Diving, or parachuting.
Bottom line is: Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
I've gotten out of the habit of regularly cleaning my ARs. In the six to seven months out of the year that I'm able to shoot, I put just over 2200 rounds through the "6920" and 1500 rounds through a BCM this past year without any problems. I just keep lubing up the BCG and FCG before and after a range session. I do push on the ejector plunger a few times and squeeze the extractor to make sure it moves. I also do that field test on the BCG to see if the gas rings are still doing their thing. So far so good. I'll probably wait until I get to 4000 rounds or so before I do anything drastic like cleaning the bore!
This ☝🏻
Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 16:51
I agree with Kev on this one.
If you're not regularly cleaning your equipment you're not adequately laying eyes on it to inspect the parts. I can't accurately inspect a filthy bolt, or bolt carrier for example. The gunk needs to come off of it so I can see what it looks like. Same for the barrel and chamber.
Just because a gun can run dirty for a long time doesn't mean it should have to. That is just a lack of discipline. By the same logic an airplane can probably fly for a long time without periodic maintenance and inspections, but I don't want to fly on one maintained like some of you maintain your firearms.
KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 17:09
I agree with Kev on this one.
This is not the full length disclaimer.
You're supposed to say "Ohhhhh, me heavens! Ah feels faint! Ah canna buh-leeeeeeve that I agree with KEV... somebody call the paper! Mark this day on my google calendar! Pour me a glass of cold water! Poke my ass with a safety pin!"
As all the other posters do... every-single-day...
;)
Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 17:27
I guess I don't feel a need for a disclaimer.
I'm a gun cleaning Nazi. An unrepentant one at that. I think nothing of dumping a stripped down bolt and carrier into an ultrasonic cleaner and then carefully cleaning a barrel and chamber with a good coated cleaning rod using brass jag and bronze brush after letting foaming bore cleaner do its thing for 30 minutes. I have oversized brushes to quickly scrub out the inside of the upper too. This activity is not hard. I don't see why some think it is a big deal. With the right tools it doesn't take that long even if you don't have an ultrasonic tank. At least I know my shit is clean, lubed, and ready to go.
No one is going to wear their gun out from cleaning it with good cleaning tools. That might be a concern with sectioned steel cleaning rods and other shitty tools you should not use frequently or ever if you can avoid it.
Bore snakes are only good at making folks feel like they've done some sort of maintenance/cleaning. They are a joke.
That said, I only clean my fun guns once every 2 - 4 range trips. My house AR gets a thorough cleaning and inspection the very same day. I used to be a cleaning freak, but after 20 plus years of AR shooting, I've found, like others, it's good lube that keeps the gun going indefinitely.
I'm guessing you have never seen military weapons before. They get screwed up from poor cleaning practices. Your average civilian has no clue how to do a decent cleaning and love to try new gadgets not to mention testing latest and greatest stupid method they learned from their buddy Bubba who told them "it works for me all the time".
I guess I don't feel a need for a disclaimer.
I'm a gun cleaning Nazi. An unrepentant one at that. I think nothing of dumping a stripped down bolt and carrier into an ultrasonic cleaner and then carefully cleaning a barrel and chamber with a good coated cleaning rod using brass jag and bronze brush after letting foaming bore cleaner do its thing for 30 minutes. I have oversized brushes to quickly scrub out the inside of the upper too. This activity is not hard. I don't see why some think it is a big deal. With the right tools it doesn't take that long even if you don't have an ultrasonic tank. At least I know my shit is clean, lubed, and ready to go.
No one is going to wear their gun out from cleaning it with good cleaning tools. That might be a concern with sectioned steel cleaning rods and other shitty tools you should not use frequently or ever if you can avoid it.
Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 18:43
I'm a former Marine so yeah I've seen plenty of jacked up weapons ruined by over zealous cleaning with poor tools and practices. Doesn't mean I use bad tools or practices though. Coated rods are your friend and so are bore guides for one.
I'm curious as to what prompted your question OP. Will you be in the sort of environment where you may need to break out your CLP in the middle of a four hour firefight to relube? I'm not trying to be patronizing or sarcastic; I just don't see the point. If I had to make sure a weapon stays functional in a stress situation, I would add lube. If it had an object big enough, or positioned critically enough, to impede function I would remove it. If I were going to clean it, I would clean the whole thing. There are no functional parts of the weapon that cannot cause it to fail in some way if they are neglected.
I don't think I own a weapon that is inspection ready, but I remember finding out the hard way that 'white glove' was a literal term.
Outlander Systems
01-03-17, 18:46
Take that bitch in the shower with you.
If you're in a pinch, piss down the barrel and rack the CH back a couple of times.
I'm curious as to what prompted your question OP. Will you be in the sort of environment where you may need to break out your CLP in the middle of a four hour firefight to relube? I'm not trying to be patronizing or sarcastic; I just don't see the point. If I had to make sure a weapon stays functional in a stress situation, I would add lube. If it had an object big enough, or positioned critically enough, to impede function I would remove it. If I were going to clean it, I would clean the whole thing. There are no functional parts of the weapon that cannot cause it to fail in some way if they are neglected.
I don't think I own a weapon that is inspection ready, but I remember finding out the hard way that 'white glove' was a literal term.
Discussion?
Yes, but it all has to be clean, and it all has to be in good working order.
Personally, I can't even isolate one part or piece to discuss, because while a tiny pinch of fine particulate sand can more easily find it's way into the chamber area of the barrel extension, but a single grain of sand can find it's way under the extractor and stop up the gun. Carbon accumulates where it does, and over time can stop the gun. Gummed up lube can stop the gun.
I understand the question, but I don't like where the discussion eventually goes.
It's the same as asking for the most critical inspection point before a NASCAR race, Cave Diving, or parachuting.
Bottom line is: Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
Yeah, I'm there. Been there for 30 years!
Bore snakes are only good at making folks feel like they've done some sort of maintenance/cleaning. They are a joke.
That said, I only clean my fun guns once every 2 - 4 range trips. My house AR gets a thorough cleaning and inspection the very same day. I used to be a cleaning freak, but after 20 plus years of AR shooting, I've found, like others, it's good lube that keeps the gun going indefinitely.
Still waiting for concrete, specific reasons why boresnakes are bad.
Again, not looking to start an argument, honestly seeking information.
I definitely dont white glove clean my ARs anymore. But I do keep them relatively clean and always well lubed. I did let my 6920 go well over 1000 rounds, many suppressed, without cleaning just to see what would happen. Now my rifles get cleaned every few months or every few hundred rounds, which with kids and surgeries the last few years the rifles haven't been shot a bunch.
As far as the original question, I would say the chamber. But really I didn't experience that much interior weapons fouling very much at all. I kept my dust cover closed and a barrel cap on. Even after dust storms there would be little fouling in the rifle. The machine guns required a lot more cleaning than my rifle.
I have a bore brush with the "bristle collar" on one longer handgun rod and on another similar handgun rod I have a mop attached. Both are used after shooting sessions. Then I wipe down the bolt carrier and hit the bolt a few times with a brass bristle toothbrush and finish up with a rag. These steps take about 10 minutes. I clean the bore occasionally. I make a big effort to dry the chamber. Lubricant is Slip 2000 Extreme. I like this lube, but the truth is that most other gun lubes would suffice for my purposes. I also like Frog Lube. When the mood hits, I'll strip it down further for inspection and more thorough cleaning. Before studying here, I was lead to believe that AR's should not be run wet. Now I understand why this message is wrong. Thank you.
Does anybody clean the gas tube's interior? I don't.
I reread the thread and saw that it addressed combat veterans. I'm not a veteran and responded by error.
Still waiting for concrete, specific reasons why boresnakes are bad.
Again, not looking to start an argument, honestly seeking information.
I think boresnakes do a fine job for quick cleaning. I use them, and really like them for shotguns. For a more meticulous cleaning, it's still the rod and patches. The problem I've heard of people having is them breaking and getting stuck in the barrel. I've personally never had that happen, but what I've done to make sure it never does is tie a piece of 550 cord on the loop so if the string breaks, I can still pull it back out.
I definitely dont white glove clean my ARs anymore. But I do keep them relatively clean and always well lubed. I did let my 6920 go well over 1000 rounds, many suppressed, without cleaning just to see what would happen. Now my rifles get cleaned every few months or every few hundred rounds, which with kids and surgeries the last few years the rifles haven't been shot a bunch.
As far as the original question, I would say the chamber. But really I didn't experience that much interior weapons fouling very much at all. I kept my dust cover closed and a barrel cap on. Even after dust storms there would be little fouling in the rifle. The machine guns required a lot more cleaning than my rifle.
I think describing how people clean their AR, if not just linking to an FAQ or article (if that's what you do) would be helpful also, as methods of cleaning seem to range almost as much much as frequency.
I think boresnakes do a fine job for quick cleaning. I use them, and really like them for shotguns. For a more meticulous cleaning, it's still the rod and patches. The problem I've heard of people having is them breaking and getting stuck in the barrel. I've personally never had that happen, but what I've done to make sure it never does is tie a piece of 550 cord on the loop so if the string breaks, I can still pull it back out.
Boresnakes are a good "field expedient" method of cleaning the bore, but certainly not an end-all be-all. I use them as an adjunct to my barrel cleaning process where once I've run a bore brush a few times, then a patch or two, I'll use the Boresnake for a couple passes then return to the rod with patches for the final touch.
Averageman
01-04-17, 13:40
I think boresnakes do a fine job for quick cleaning. I use them, and really like them for shotguns. For a more meticulous cleaning, it's still the rod and patches. The problem I've heard of people having is them breaking and getting stuck in the barrel. I've personally never had that happen, but what I've done to make sure it never does is tie a piece of 550 cord on the loop so if the string breaks, I can still pull it back out.
Having had the string on a Boresnake snap at one time, this would have saved me endless frustration.
In the end though it was my bad for not taking a closer look at it before using it.
Most people I've known that were die-hard boresnake users were shotgunners.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Austin1776
01-04-17, 18:34
https://youtu.be/0Ej-xCW_YQs
I'd listen to this guy. I'm not saying never clean your rifle, but I think the OCD cleaning regimen that most military goes through is unnecessary. I think often rifles are damaged by people trying to unnecessarily remove every trace of carbon. Proper lubrication is more important than keeping it squeaky clean.
FANTASTIC VIDEO...I started it and could not stop until the end. So much wisdom. It should be a sticky somewhere.
I probably like it because it confirms my experience. When I first started with the AR I obsessed over cleaning it. Now I just about don't bother. I keep it very well lubed, and on training days, where I'm putting 500 rounds through it, I'll relube it at noon break. But that's about it.
Yes, but it all has to be clean, and it all has to be in good working order.
Personally, I can't even isolate one part or piece to discuss, because while a tiny pinch of fine particulate sand can more easily find it's way into the chamber area of the barrel extension, but a single grain of sand can find it's way under the extractor and stop up the gun. Carbon accumulates where it does, and over time can stop the gun. Gummed up lube can stop the gun.
I understand the question, but I don't like where the discussion eventually goes.
It's the same as asking for the most critical inspection point before a NASCAR race, Cave Diving, or parachuting.
Bottom line is: Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
This is not the full length disclaimer.
You're supposed to say "Ohhhhh, me heavens! Ah feels faint! Ah canna buh-leeeeeeve that I agree with KEV... somebody call the paper! Mark this day on my google calendar! Pour me a glass of cold water! Poke my ass with a safety pin!"
As all the other posters do... every-single-day...
;)
You gave sound logical advice in the first quote. When you do that it's easy to agree with you... sometimes, once in a blue moon, on the fifth Sunday of the month... ;)
FireandFlames
01-04-17, 19:38
I just dumped alot of lube in to the chamber and on the bolt head, a weapon is always going to be dirty in a place like Afghanistan especially with all the moon dust and sandstorms that roll through.
FANTASTIC VIDEO...I started it and could not stop until the end. So much wisdom. It should be a sticky somewhere.
I probably like it because it confirms my experience. When I first started with the AR I obsessed over cleaning it. Now I just about don't bother. I keep it very well lubed, and on training days, where I'm putting 500 rounds through it, I'll relube it at noon break. But that's about it.
Yes, great video.
I will, however, bring to everyone's attention the 9 seconds starting at 8:30 through 8:39 in that video. It's only 9 seconds so listen carefully to it.
Austin1776
01-05-17, 14:48
Yes, great video.
I will, however, bring to everyone's attention the 9 seconds starting at 8:30 through 8:39 in that video. It's only 9 seconds so listen carefully to it.
Yes, and I will bring to your attention his point that the vast majority of people who own and shoot ARs will never go to war, do not own them for HD, SD, etc. and his point is that there is no point to obsess over removing every bit of visible carbon you can see, and that even if you are using them as "go to war" weapons frequent lubrication is the key, not scraping away every bit of carbon on the bolt tail, etc.
Doc Safari
01-05-17, 14:53
This is going to sound like a totally Noob question, but I never can remember the answer: does one need to really worry about cleaning the carbon crud off the back end of the bolt, and if so, how meticulous or frequent does one have to be about it?
I know I try to clean that part every once in a blue moon, but it's a pain in the ass to clean that. It's almost easier just to buy another bolt when that gets dirty. (I keed. I keed.)
I found a thread on it, but even people here disagree:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108007-Bolt-assembly-crud/
This is going to sound like a totally Noob question, but I never can remember the answer: does one need to really worry about cleaning the carbon crud off the back end of the bolt, and if so, how meticulous or frequent does one have to be about it?
I know I try to clean that part when I do clean the rifle, but it's a pain in the ass to clean that. It's almost easier just to buy another bolt when that gets dirty. (I keed. I keed.)
Absolutely not. Zero point in cleaning it ever.
Outlander Systems
01-05-17, 17:01
@DocGlockster
Negative. Don't waste the time.
Yes, and I will bring to your attention his point that the vast majority of people who own and shoot ARs will never go to war, do not own them for HD, SD, etc. and his point is that there is no point to obsess over removing every bit of visible carbon you can see, and that even if you are using them as "go to war" weapons frequent lubrication is the key, not scraping away every bit of carbon on the bolt tail, etc.
With that line of thinking why not just buy "hobby" guns like S&W or Windham? I mean if there is no point to owning a modern semi-automatic weapon other than plinking and fun why drop the coin for quality?
He said his "go to war" weapons were clean, unlike his work guns. Now at his age he wasn't going to "war" more than anyone else not in the military, yet he mentioned his (I assume he meant) go-to guns were clean. While he didn't elaborate what "clean" was to him, I'll wager he did NOT mean just squirted lube in it like his work guns.
Do with yours what you will, but mine are always potentially go-to guns so I keep them CLEAN. Sure, some would most likely be grabbed before others but I'll keep them all nice and tidy when I'm done using them.
Coal Dragger
01-05-17, 18:53
This is going to sound like a totally Noob question, but I never can remember the answer: does one need to really worry about cleaning the carbon crud off the back end of the bolt, and if so, how meticulous or frequent does one have to be about it?
I know I try to clean that part every once in a blue moon, but it's a pain in the ass to clean that. It's almost easier just to buy another bolt when that gets dirty. (I keed. I keed.)
I found a thread on it, but even people here disagree:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108007-Bolt-assembly-crud/
Necessary? Nope.
Easy to do? Yes with something like an Otis BONE tool it takes about 10 seconds to clean the bolt tail, just put some cleaner or oil on the bolt tail insert in BONE tool and turn the tool a little bit. Carbon comes right off.
Stil not mandatory.
I clean stuff as effectively as possible without it requiring a lot of labor. Hence my love for ultrasonic cleaners, and foaming bore cleaner. Does the work with as little actual scrubbing as possible. I know that even that level of cleanliness is not needed by a long shot, but these days it doesn't take much more if any time than the 15-20 minutes Pat Rogers mentioned being too long.
I figured out real quick that the excessive rifle cleaning we did in basic training was to keep us busy, not to prevent weapon failure.
As for my experience.
I kept the dust cover closed and a muzzle cover on
I would spray out the FCG routinely and kept chamber and bcg clean, notsterile
sinlessorrow
01-30-17, 12:28
Pull BCG, wipe down with cloth, run bore snake down bore a few times, swab the chamber, relube, reassemble.
It's really that simple, if you're spending more than 15 minutes cleaning your doing it wrong.
Shit. So I should stop scrubbing the buttstock?
LMFAO... +1. After several stuck casings and FTE' I always give the feed ramps and chamber a lot of love. I clean thoroughly after 2-3 range trips.
I think an awful lot of people in the military (Marines here back in the day) mistake malfunctions caused by horrid magazines on the weapon or the cleanliness thereof. For whatever reason, the marine corps loved to keep magazines that were absolute shit in service to keep from spending a few bucks worth of unit money on replacement. Anyone ever actually take their mags apart, and stretch the mag springs? I have, because I was told to. I thought this may have been an old practice. Nope. Friend of mine who was in a-Stan a few years back said they did the same while there. Yep - in a war, take mags apart the stretch the springs. Mag bodies that were warped so badly it was difficult to get into the rifle were common. Spraying CPL onto the outside of the BCG through the ejection port happened all the time - that does nothing at all. Or opening the bolt and spraying the inside of the upper with CLP - again, about useless. No lube is gettin where it needs to be.
Don't think that because a military service does something, that it is right or remotely smart. The military does a ton of stupid, wrong stuff based on their own interior legends that they actually believe.
I think an awful lot of people in the military (Marines here back in the day) mistake malfunctions caused by horrid magazines on the weapon or the cleanliness thereof. For whatever reason, the marine corps loved to keep magazines that were absolute shit in service to keep from spending a few bucks worth of unit money on replacement. Anyone ever actually take their mags apart, and stretch the mag springs? I have, because I was told to. I thought this may have been an old practice. Nope. Friend of mine who was in a-Stan a few years back said they did the same while there. Yep - in a war, take mags apart the stretch the springs. Mag bodies that were warped so badly it was difficult to get into the rifle were common. Spraying CPL onto the outside of the BCG through the ejection port happened all the time - that does nothing at all. Or opening the bolt and spraying the inside of the upper with CLP - again, about useless. No lube is gettin where it needs to be.
Don't think that because a military service does something, that it is right or remotely smart. The military does a ton of stupid, wrong stuff based on their own interior legends that they actually believe.
It's entirely possible, even probable, that your mags were older than you are.
Averageman
01-31-17, 08:09
Ever caught a Private jamming a jacked up cleaning rod down the barrel backwards?
It's a entire culture of weapons cleaning that is so ingrained and so, so very wrong.
TacticalFun
01-31-17, 08:36
Ever caught a Private jamming a jacked up cleaning rod down the barrel backwards?
It's a entire culture of weapons cleaning that is so ingrained and so, so very wrong.
They had us pollish the black out of the rifle when we had nothing better to do.
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My honest opinion is that there is way too much thought put in to this. My experience while being deployed is that if you take care of your weapon, it's going to take care of you. Anyone in the military is going to tell you that we already clean the things too damn much as is...probably causing more harm than good.
Whenever I had the time, I'd break my rifle down, inspect it, wipe it down, and lube it up. That method always served me well. Just a little common sense. Yes, your firearm is going to get dirty and have sand in places you never knew existed, but to be truthful, my personal rifles are 10x more heinous than my service rifles ever were. It was a struggle for me, but there is absolutely no need for a white glove inspection.
Not having served in the military, I don't know official policy for lubing M4's but have the idea that the Army does not advocate the amount of lube recommended here. Can someone explain their lube guidelines? Can somebody clarify lubing errors like wrong areas for application? Does grease play a role in lubing AR's?
I understand idiot type damage from incorrect cleaning. Now if a grunt company commander told his guys that cleaning was not necessary and just add lube, then I see this method contributing to weapon failure. Somewhere there's a happy medium but I can't see it being a too lenient attitude about weapon maintenance.
Not having served in the military, I don't know official policy for lubing M4's but have the idea that the Army does not advocate the amount of lube recommended here. Can someone explain their lube guidelines? Can somebody clarify lubing errors like wrong areas for application? Does grease play a role in lubing AR's?
I understand idiot type damage from incorrect cleaning. Now if a grunt company commander told his guys that cleaning was not necessary and just add lube, then I see this method contributing to weapon failure. Somewhere there's a happy medium but I can't see it being a too lenient attitude about weapon maintenance.
Honestly I think it a push-back against long-instilled military cleaning rituals, so now that they aren't in anymore they readily accept laziness and eagerly suck in the words "All it needs is lube". Sure, lube will keep it running. But for the investment of MY $$$ (not Uncle Sam's) I prefer to have my weapons pretty damn clean when I'm done with them. A car can run longer than 5K miles without an oil change, but why would you do that?
As for the purpose of this thread, I certainly understand that in a combat zone you do PM and a quick cleaning when you can to keep it running. Maybe a good cleaning every so often. Here at home it's a different story to me.
https://youtu.be/0Ej-xCW_YQs
I'd listen to this guy.
Damn skippy
rip PR
I'm not a combat vet, but was raised by Vietnam veteran that was issued the first generation M16, so from his experience passed on to me, I'm sure I know enough.
The M16 got hot and jammed because it was not manufactured with a chrome lined chamber and the ammo manufacturer loaded the rounds with ball powder.
The second generation M16 A1 was manufactured with a chrome lined chamber and a forward assist while retaining the same phosphate BCG. So it is clear that the biggest part of keeping your rifle shooting was mostly chamber related since that's where the changes in design were made.
No real reason why a civilian shooter can't be satisfied with a phosphate chamber as long as they keep it cleaned and lubed, but a phosphate chamber can not handle sustained full auto fire.
sinlessorrow
02-01-17, 23:32
I'm not a combat vet, but was raised by Vietnam veteran that was issued the first generation M16, so from his experience passed on to me, I'm sure I know enough.
The M16 got hot and jammed because it was not manufactured with a chrome lined chamber and the ammo manufacturer loaded the rounds with ball powder.
The second generation M16 A1 was manufactured with a chrome lined chamber and a forward assist while retaining the same phosphate BCG. So it is clear that the biggest part of keeping your rifle shooting was mostly chamber related since that's where the changes in design were made.
Steel rusts in humid tropical climates, I know...I personally live in a beach town.
However as you mentioned unprotected chamber led to rust, which led to hard extractions, which led to ripped off case rims and thus the failures we saw. It was compounded by the propellant change, but most it was a rust and maintenance issue.
Giving soldiers trained on the M14 a new gun right before deploying and telling them it cleans itself was a huge snafu.
Most likely had the M16 been issued with a chrome chamber/bore and still had crappy propellant and soldiers were told to not clean their rifles that issues likely would have been a small fraction of what we saw.
Damn skippy
rip PR
Great talk. Spoke to Pat via the net various times, never actually heard him speak. Watched the whole talk and found it helpful.
Steel rusts in humid tropical climates, I know...I personally live in a beach town.
However as you mentioned unprotected chamber led to rust, which led to hard extractions, which led to ripped off case rims and thus the failures we saw. It was compounded by the propellant change, but most it was a rust and maintenance issue.
Giving soldiers trained on the M14 a new gun right before deploying and telling them it cleans itself was a huge snafu.
Most likely had the M16 been issued with a chrome chamber/bore and still had crappy propellant and soldiers were told to not clean their rifles that issues likely would have been a small fraction of what we saw.
Yep, 3 years as a grunt in Panama shows that to indeed be the case. I guess combat in different AO's will present different challenges, such as the aforementioned corrosion/rust of humid tropical zones and the fine particulate sand of the Middle East. I think in either the chamber would be a priority, with at least a wipe-down of the BCG and interior of the upper to follow in the desert. Obviously lube in both circumstances. Now extremes of cold (like during the Frozen Chosen or Battle of the Bulge)? Don't have much input on that. I would imagine that the viscosity of the lube would be paramount in that environment.
Yep, 3 years as a grunt in Panama shows that to indeed be the case. I guess combat in different AO's will present different challenges, such as the aforementioned corrosion/rust of humid tropical zones and the fine particulate sand of the Middle East. I think in either the chamber would be a priority, with at least a wipe-down of the BCG and interior of the upper to follow in the desert. Obviously lube in both circumstances. Now extremes of cold (like during the Frozen Chosen or Battle of the Bulge)? Don't have much input on that. I would imagine that the viscosity of the lube would be paramount in that environment.
Where's Arctic1 when you need him? :cool:
Discussion?
Take that bitch in the shower with you.
If you're in a pinch, piss down the barrel and rack the CH back a couple of times.
I dunno about anyone else, but I would love to discuss the outcome of this one. Haha.
ETA: Just make sure to let it dry before a mag dump. The smelllll.
Where's Arctic1 when you need him? :cool:
Speaking from someone who did a lot of shooting last year, we hit below -25 on and off for about 4 weeks last January-February, as long as you use a lube with a good viscosity, I use Slip2k, it would work for hundreds of rounds between cleaning for my "training" rifle.
As a piston driven rifle, though, I can't speak for adding in all the gunk and mixing it back with the lube in/on the bolt carrier. I will try and get a good round count on my DI while we still have some cold. We've gotten pretty spoiled this year though and only saw about a solid week of -20s here this year in Early Jan.
sinlessorrow
02-02-17, 12:15
Speaking from someone who did a lot of shooting last year, we hit below -25 on and off for about 4 weeks last January-February, as long as you use a lube with a good viscosity, I use Slip2k, it would work for hundreds of rounds between cleaning for my "training" rifle.
As a piston driven rifle, though, I can't speak for adding in all the gunk and mixing it back with the lube in/on the bolt carrier. I will try and get a good round count on my DI while we still have some cold. We've gotten pretty spoiled this year though and only saw about a solid week of -20s here this year in Early Jan.
The key to cold is a good lube like you mentioned, and leaving the rifle outside.
Condensation from temp changes is the killer there.
HansTheHobbit
02-02-17, 12:30
While I was in the Army I got fortunate and didn't have anyone trying to kill me for the duration of my enlistment. That said, I know weapons fairly well and am a stickler for cleanliness. If I had to pick one critical area to keep clean on an AR-type weapon (from things I've read and a personal carbine class experience) it would be the chamber area, with the most critical tool being the chamber brush. Keep in mind this is to keep the weapon functioning, not a final or detail cleaning prior to storage.
Failures-to-extract can put you out of the class/fight real quick, and are generally a PIA to clear. While a failure-to-eject can be a pain too, it is much more simple and quick to clear than a stuck case in your chamber.
Opinions?
I would argue that your method for selecting advice isn't going to get you the "qualified" results you're looking for. Just because someone is a combat veteran doesn't mean they're an authority on cleaning ARs. Most of them are going to be infantry, and the vast majority aren't going to know any more about it than what any other infantryman was taught in training. They may have even picked up some bad habits in country, like running it dry. I would be looking for people who have put many rounds downrange through different varieties of AR platforms. It doesn't really matter whether those rounds were aimed at targets or people. In fact, I imagine the best expert sources from the military probably don't necessarily come from combat MOSs, at least in terms of people who you're likely to get answers from. Armorers, instructors, shooting team members, etc. are probably going to be the most knowledgeable about the platform in general.
Personally, I would be asking competitive shooters. They put thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands, of rounds downrange every year, and some of them have been at it for many, many years. And while a malfunction won't get them killed, they really, really hate malfunctions and will do everything to prevent them. In terms of military personnel, I think the only jobs that could rival the sheer round count and experience of civilian competition shooters would be Delta or Seal team 6. In fact, I've heard more than a few rumors that special operations gets its inspiration from the civilian side of things, both in terms of equipment and technique.
My non combat veteran advice to you would be to really study the platform and how it works. Look at a really well worn BCG and the points you need to lubricate will become blatantly obvious, especially if you already know the mechanics behind how it functions. It's really not that complicated.
I would argue that your method for selecting advice isn't going to get you the "qualified" results you're looking for. Just because someone is a combat veteran doesn't mean they're an authority on cleaning ARs. Most of them are going to be infantry, and the vast majority aren't going to know any more about it than what any other infantryman was taught in training. They may have even picked up some bad habits in country, like running it dry. I would be looking for people who have put many rounds downrange through different varieties of AR platforms. It doesn't really matter whether those rounds were aimed at targets or people. In fact, I imagine the best expert sources from the military probably don't necessarily come from combat MOSs, at least in terms of people who you're likely to get answers from. Armorers, instructors, shooting team members, etc. are probably going to be the most knowledgeable about the platform in general.
Personally, I would be asking competitive shooters. They put thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands, of rounds downrange every year, and some of them have been at it for many, many years. And while a malfunction won't get them killed, they really, really hate malfunctions and will do everything to prevent them. In terms of military personnel, I think the only jobs that could rival the sheer round count and experience of civilian competition shooters would be Delta or Seal team 6. In fact, I've heard more than a few rumors that special operations gets its inspiration from the civilian side of things, both in terms of equipment and technique.
My non combat veteran advice to you would be to really study the platform and how it works. Look at a really well worn BCG and the points you need to lubricate will become blatantly obvious, especially if you already know the mechanics behind how it functions. It's really not that complicated.
I was basically putting this out there for discussion. I certainly know how to clean an AR---quite well actually---and was a grunt myself (albeit not in combat). I was thinking it would be interesting to hear how guys who were going on missions day after day, with minimal downtime, kept their weapons functioning reliably and what area they saw as the most important to hit intermittently until they got enough of a break to clean it thoroughly. Obviously most of the feedback we'll get is from modern-day vets, and that of course will be in the deserts of the M.E. or high desert of Afghanistan.
Think about it this way: a guy taking a 3 or 5-day carbine class will probably put more rounds downrange than a grunt in recent combat for that same timespan. However, the guy taking the carbine class isn't rumbling from point A to point B in a dusty convoy, with talcum powder-like clouds coating everything. Also, he isn't crawling through rice paddies or climbing muddy jungled hillsides (for any advice we might get from our older vets).
HansTheHobbit
02-02-17, 13:11
I was basically putting this out there for discussion. I certainly know how to clean an AR---quite well actually---and was a grunt myself (albeit not in combat). I was thinking it would be interesting to hear how guys who were going on missions day after day, with minimal downtime, kept their weapons functioning reliably and what area they saw as the most important to hit intermittently until they got enough of a break to clean it thoroughly. Obviously most of the feedback we'll get is from modern-day vets, and that of course will be in the deserts of the M.E. or high desert of Afghanistan.
Think about it this way: a guy taking a 3 or 5-day carbine class will probably put more rounds downrange than a grunt in recent combat for that same timespan. However, the guy taking the carbine class isn't rumbling from point A to point B in a dusty convoy, with talcum powder-like clouds coating everything. Also, he isn't crawling through rice paddies or climbing muddy jungled hillsides (for any advice we might get from our older vets).
Like the man said, dump a Canadian buttload of oil into the gas vents.:lol:
Seriously, just remove any large debris from the weapon, dump in lube, and it will run no matter how dirty.
sinlessorrow
02-02-17, 14:03
I was basically putting this out there for discussion. I certainly know how to clean an AR---quite well actually---and was a grunt myself (albeit not in combat). I was thinking it would be interesting to hear how guys who were going on missions day after day, with minimal downtime, kept their weapons functioning reliably and what area they saw as the most important to hit intermittently until they got enough of a break to clean it thoroughly. Obviously most of the feedback we'll get is from modern-day vets, and that of course will be in the deserts of the M.E. or high desert of Afghanistan.
Think about it this way: a guy taking a 3 or 5-day carbine class will probably put more rounds downrange than a grunt in recent combat for that same timespan. However, the guy taking the carbine class isn't rumbling from point A to point B in a dusty convoy, with talcum powder-like clouds coating everything. Also, he isn't crawling through rice paddies or climbing muddy jungled hillsides (for any advice we might get from our older vets).
Here's the thing. Lubrication will not stay on the bolt tail or gas, no matter how hard you try there's just to much pressure. It's going to blow out of the exhaust vents on the first shot.
So the only part of the bolt that will hold oil, and has any form of actual contact is the bolt support lug(the ring right behind the extractor pin), the bolt lugs themselves, and the cam pin.
All of those areas slide, so I use grease on them. It lasts and stays in place, and with a good grease you get a wide range of viscosity before it fails.
On the carrier, the sides of the key and the rails are the only part that see any form of contact, those also get grease as they slide.
My point is, I sparingly use grease on the key locations of friction of the BCG and have never had any problems.
I chose grease and where to apply it through my knowledge of how the system works, not what I was told.
HansTheHobbit
02-03-17, 17:49
Here's the thing. Lubrication will not stay on the bolt tail or gas, no matter how hard you try there's just to much pressure. It's going to blow out of the exhaust vents on the first shot.
So the only part of the bolt that will hold oil, and has any form of actual contact is the bolt support lug(the ring ahead of the extractor pin), the bolt lugs themselves, and the cam pin.
All of those areas slide, so I use grease on them. It lasts and stays in place, and with a good grease you get a wide range of viscosity before it fails.
On the carrier, the sides of the key and the rails are the only part that see any form of contact, those also get grease as they slide.
My point is, I sparingly use grease on the key locations of friction of the BCG and have never had any problems.
I chose grease and where to apply it through my knowledge of how the system works, not what I was told.
I do something very similar. Well, not really, but I use grease, so similar to that extent.
I coat all surfaces very lightly in TW25B (any penetrating oil will work, I just think PTFE works best for this purpose). I then grease all the bearing surfaces, including the gas rings and tail. Yes, most of it does get squeezed/blown out, but there's going to be a thin layer that remains. The same is true of oil, but I think grease, at least in my perception, resists pressure better. And then when the grease is all gone, or full of fouling, the PTFE embedded in the metal will keep things sliding smooth for a while longer.
The PTFE also makes cleanup easier because it prevents or at least slows down hard carbon deposits. You do have to follow the instructions though, and you can't use any solvents. It takes a while to get the metal good and conditioned. I would liken the process to seasoning a cast iron skillet. Do it right and eggs will slide out like it's teflon. Start using soap and they'll adhere to it like glue.
I think it's funny how people either say don't use any oil at all because it gets squeezed out, or use a Canadian buttload. The thing is, all oil gets squeezed out of all guns, not just ARs. If the parts were not under pressure they wouldn't need oil in the first place. The gas rings are no different than the cam pin. Yes, there's pressure, and yes the oil does get squeezed out, but not all of it. If every last micron were squeezed out then there would be no point in oiling any gun anywhere. All interfacing surfaces that need oil are under pressure. That's just how it is. But using the Canadian buttload is just as crazy, unless you're dumping it into the vents, in which case you will need that much to ensure it migrates into the areas it's needed. If you're applying it with the gun stripped, then anything excessive is just a waste of oil, and an invitation for it to go places it shouldn't and attract dust.
I do something very similar. Well, not really, but I use grease, so similar to that extent.
I coat all surfaces very lightly in TW25B (any penetrating oil will work, I just think PTFE works best for this purpose). I then grease all the bearing surfaces, including the gas rings and tail. Yes, most of it does get squeezed/blown out, but there's going to be a thin layer that remains. The same is true of oil, but I think grease, at least in my perception, resists pressure better. And then when the grease is all gone, or full of fouling, the PTFE embedded in the metal will keep things sliding smooth for a while longer.
The PTFE also makes cleanup easier because it prevents or at least slows down hard carbon deposits. You do have to follow the instructions though, and you can't use any solvents. It takes a while to get the metal good and conditioned. I would liken the process to seasoning a cast iron skillet. Do it right and eggs will slide out like it's teflon. Start using soap and they'll adhere to it like glue.
I think it's funny how people either say don't use any oil at all because it gets squeezed out, or use a Canadian buttload. The thing is, all oil gets squeezed out of all guns, not just ARs. If the parts were not under pressure they wouldn't need oil in the first place. The gas rings are no different than the cam pin. Yes, there's pressure, and yes the oil does get squeezed out, but not all of it. If every last micron were squeezed out then there would be no point in oiling any gun anywhere. All interfacing surfaces that need oil are under pressure. That's just how it is. But using the Canadian buttload is just as crazy, unless you're dumping it into the vents, in which case you will need that much to ensure it migrates into the areas it's needed. If you're applying it with the gun stripped, then anything excessive is just a waste of oil, and an invitation for it to go places it shouldn't and attract dust.
It's not like a Froglube application is it?
HansTheHobbit
02-03-17, 23:06
It's not like a Froglube application is it?
Yes and no. It's nothing like Froglube in terms of ingredients, but the principle is the same. Again, I would liken it to seasoning a cast iron skillet. The idea is to create a layer of PTFE embedded in the pores of the metal. You wouldn't strip it away with solvent anymore than you would strip the seasoning from a cast iron skillet with soap. And the longer you use it, the more embedded and gnarly it gets. After a time, it's kind of like a dry film lubricant. It makes cleanup super easy, and I'm sure it increases the number of rounds you could fire before you have to add more oil. Milcomm has a special cleaner that's basically like soap that won't strip away the oil. I don't know how it works but it does.
Oil does not attract dust. Oil will trap dust. It will suspend dust until there's too much dust for the amount of oil. Grease does the same. But oil isn't some kind of dust magnet
vicious_cb
02-04-17, 07:05
Oil does not attract dust. Oil will trap dust. It will suspend dust until there's too much dust for the amount of oil. Grease does the same. But oil isn't some kind of dust magnet
This is why Im not a fan of grease on the bolt or inside the bolt carrier, it simply cannot absorb as much carbon fouling as oil before becoming saturated and becoming sludge. Its the same reason oil is used inside an engine vs grease. Part of the job of the lubricant is to absorb fouling and keep it in suspension.
HansTheHobbit
02-04-17, 10:20
Oil does not attract dust. Oil will trap dust. It will suspend dust until there's too much dust for the amount of oil. Grease does the same. But oil isn't some kind of dust magnet
Right, that was a poor choice of words on my part.
This is why Im not a fan of grease on the bolt or inside the bolt carrier, it simply cannot absorb as much carbon fouling as oil before becoming saturated and becoming sludge. Its the same reason oil is used inside an engine vs grease. Part of the job of the lubricant is to absorb fouling and keep it in suspension.
That's actually one of the reasons I like the grease is that it doesn't absorb the fouling as much. You don't really have to absorb the fouling, just keep it from adhering to the interfacing surfaces. If you start absorbing it, then you're trapping it where you don't want it.
I would also argue that there are other reasons why oil is used in car engines, primarily because it has to circulate and pass through a filter. In this instance, trapping the fouling is a good thing because you need to carry it out of the engine and into the filter, through a very complex system of tubing.
Car engines also have a high volume of oil, whereas guns have very tiny amounts in the interfacing surfaces. You can dump the Canadian buttload in, but only a very tiny amount is actually going to stay where it's needed. That amount simply doesn't have the capacity to absorb enough fouling to make much of a difference. All you can hope for is to prevent the fouling from adhering to the surfaces IMHO.
When grease or oil gets fouled, it needs to be replaced. There is no provision on an AR for replacing grease. No way to squeeze in new grease to push out the old. The AR needs to be disassembled, the old grease has to be cleaned off and new grease slathered on.
On the other hand, new oil simply needs to be dribbled on until it washes out the old oil. No need to disassemble anything. No need for a buttload of oil either, Canadian or otherwise
jackblack73
02-04-17, 12:36
I switched from grease to oil a couple years ago after reading more here. I've never had a malfunction with either, but my ARs are noticeably much smoother when I cycle them with oil.
sinlessorrow
02-04-17, 12:43
When grease or oil gets fouled, it needs to be replaced. There is no provision on an AR for replacing grease. No way to squeeze in new grease to push out the old. The AR needs to be disassembled, the old grease has to be cleaned off and new grease slathered on.
On the other hand, new oil simply needs to be dribbled on until it washes out the old oil. No need to disassemble anything. No need for a buttload of oil either, Canadian or otherwise
Don't they say if it slides grease it?
Well all the main contact points on the AR slide.
Don't they say if it slides grease it?
Well all the main contact points on the AR slide.
Don't take this as saying you're wrong, because I can garuntee you have more experience than me, but I think it depends on how the system is designed.
Take the old engine analogy, the rings slide, but you don't grease piston rings. Yes an engine has a flow of oil, but I think that's what MistWolf is implying you replicate with the addition of fresh oil. Grease is typically used on parts that slide, but don't get fouled up, like a bearing.
Fwiw, I just add oil each range trip or so, and clean at 1k rounds or so.
I honestly think you can do either successfully (obviously you do), but your method is likely different.
HansTheHobbit
02-04-17, 13:54
When grease or oil gets fouled, it needs to be replaced. There is no provision on an AR for replacing grease. No way to squeeze in new grease to push out the old. The AR needs to be disassembled, the old grease has to be cleaned off and new grease slathered on.
On the other hand, new oil simply needs to be dribbled on until it washes out the old oil. No need to disassemble anything. No need for a buttload of oil either, Canadian or otherwise
There's no doubt that using oil is much more convenient. I would abandon my system quickly if I were in the field and opt for oil only. The thing is, you will always need oil in addition to grease for the lower parts. There's no practical way to grease the trigger group, for example.
The biggest reason I use grease is because it doesn't spray all over the place. I believe it has other advantages, as well, as mentioned, but mostly I like not having it spray out the carrier. If I were in the field, I would use MC2500 exclusively, no doubt about it.
TactiCool1976
02-06-17, 00:01
If i was going to do a extreme torture test, and see how long a gun will run with only cleaning 1 part of the Rifle.... i'd make sure the BCG is clean.. after that, move to the barrel...
a good example is the bravo company Filthy 14...
I kept my bolt assembly meticulously clean and my mags free of that talcum dust and never experienced a malfunction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Id_soYaAm8
Treated with SEAL 1 at the beginning of the test. Over 2,700 rounds fired. Maybe the SEAL 1 helped.
M/
The key to cold is a good lube like you mentioned, and leaving the rifle outside.
Condensation from temp changes is the killer there.
One little "trick" I picked up on was closing my dust cover when coming back inside. I used to get condensation form ontop of the oil on my carrier, after I started closing the dust cover, I have noticed that, while the outside may need a wipe down within the first 10 minutes, I am not seeing water pulled into the rilfe body anymore.
It never seems to form inside the barrel, that I can see anyways, but I always figured that was from the lack of airflow through the barrel with a closed bolt.
Shit. So I should stop scrubbing the buttstock?
More buttstock are ruined by overzealous cleaning than by neglected to.
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QuickStrike
02-06-17, 17:08
Civilian gun owner here.
I use both grease and oil (both weaponshield) on mine.
Grease on the bc rails, cam pin and lugs.
Then oil on the cam pin, rings, raised surface on the bolt body.
vicious_cb
02-07-17, 17:28
Now that the drama is over. Over on a P&S modcast, Roland(yes the same Roland who invented the Roland Special), stated that he ran his M4 completely dry on helicopter raids to avoid dust caking because he was confident his M4 was able to shoot 30 rounds without lube and if the engagement required more than 30 rounds he would lube his bolt at the same time he was behind cover reloading his weapon.
Here is some food for thought. Now if a tier 1 faceshooter like Roland who stated it was rare to use more than 30 rounds on a DoD style helicopter raid, so rare in fact that he was running completely dry, maybe we are over thinking this lube thing considering a HD situation will most likely end in 30 rounds or less. Please discuss the merits of what Roland is doing, pros and cons ect.
Doc Safari
02-07-17, 17:35
Now that the drama is over. Over on a P&S modcast, Roland(yes the same Roland who invented the Roland Special), stated that he ran his M4 completely dry on helicopter raids to avoid dust caking because he was confident his M4 was able to shoot 30 rounds without lube and if the engagement required more than 30 rounds he would lube his bolt at the same time he was behind cover reloading his weapon.
Here is some food for thought. Now if a tier 1 faceshooter like Roland who stated it was rare to use more than 30 rounds on a DoD style helicopter raid, so rare in fact that he was running completely dry, maybe we are over thinking this lube thing considering a HD situation will most likely end in 30 rounds or less. Please discuss the merits of what Roland is doing, pros and cons ect.
I'm guessing he left out the part where he's a crack shot and never misses.
:jester:
vicious_cb
02-07-17, 17:40
I'm guessing he left out the part where he's a crack shot and never misses.
:jester:
You can find out for yourself at one of his classes. :rolleyes:
"Cover me, men! I gotta reload and lube my carbine!"
You gotta make it work within your circumstances and you gotta have a plan. My HD AR isn't exposed to helicopter dust and I maintain it to give reliable function according to my needs
vicious_cb
02-07-17, 19:39
"Cover me, men! I gotta reload and lube my carbine!"
You gotta make it work within your circumstances and you gotta have a plan. My HD AR isn't exposed to helicopter dust and I maintain it to give reliable function according to my needs
What Im trying to get at is that if dudes going into harms way arent running any lube at all, maybe stressing out over what lube/grease/snot is in your AR isnt all that important.
What Im trying to get at is that if dudes going into harms way arent running any lube at all, maybe stressing out over what lube/grease/snot is in your AR isnt all that important.
I didn't put it clearly but, I agree with you
sinlessorrow
02-12-17, 13:52
Chamber and under extractor pin. Iraq dust lives to get under extractor pin
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That's another perk of grease. All that sand doesn't get caked into those areas.
Bore snakes are only good at making folks feel like they've done some sort of maintenance/cleaning. They are a joke.
That said, I only clean my fun guns once every 2 - 4 range trips. My house AR gets a thorough cleaning and inspection the very same day. I used to be a cleaning freak, but after 20 plus years of AR shooting, I've found, like others, it's good lube that keeps the gun going indefinitely.
I'm no Vet, but....
This is exactly where I am ^. My Go-To weapons are kept clean, but my fun guns....not too much. They are lubed and cleaned every 4 range trips depending on how much shooting I do.
If you have a several ARs and such, why do you need to keep them all clean? Just curios.
I know some folks are just very fastidious, I'm just wondering if it borders on OCD or is it learned habit.
I'm no Vet, but....
This is exactly where I am ^. My Go-To weapons are kept clean, but my fun guns....not too much. They are lubed and cleaned every 4 range trips depending on how much shooting I do.
If you have a several ARs and such, why do you need to keep them all clean? Just curios.
I know some folks are just very fastidious, I'm just wondering if it borders on OCD or is it learned habit.
Borders hell! I'm squarely in the heartland of OCD!
Borders hell! I'm squarely in the heartland of OCD!
Carry on. lol.
It's a learned habit but you are right an m4 does not need to be cleaned to the point you can eat off of it but she can be so caked with carbon you can't see bare metal anymore. But yes in basic you clean your weapon so much you wear the anodizing right off of it
I guess I just never got into the habit. I learned to clean guns when the Hoppe's formula was so strong you could practically pass out when you used it.
Borders hell! I'm squarely in the heartland of OCD!
Only amateurs call it OCD. Pros know it's CDO
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