View Full Version : Shooting Range in Vegas sharing info on what works and what doesn't...
I know most of you have seen Henderson Defenses posts about what guns, optics and mags work. It is pretty telling. I was recently looking at some of his posts on another forum and thought I would grab a couple interesting topics to discuss.
The first one is in regards to the HK MR556:
I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it.
For those that don't know, the MR556 has a melonited barrel (not Chrome Lined like the 416). From talking to several BIG AR manufacturers, they reported that melonited barrels failed accuracy reqs well under 5,000rds when shot on FA. Apparently on SA, it takes a bit longer to fail (10k). Interesting....
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titsonritz
01-03-17, 12:20
The cat's out of the bag.
That is really good information. Can you post the name of the article so that we can search for the original? I know we can't post links to other places but this way we can find it.
Thanks
Are you sure the HK MR556's are melonited? I contacted HK to ask about this in 2013 and they told me their MR556 barrels are neither chrome lined nor are they melonited/nitrided. Maybe HK just started meloniting them?
..........
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That is really good information. Can you post the name of the article so that we can search for the original? I know we can't post links to other places but this way we can find it.
Thanks
PM sent.
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KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 13:06
That is really good information. Can you post the name of the article so that we can search for the original? I know we can't post links to other places but this way we can find it.
Thanks
I hope there's no issue with posting a link to the TFB article:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/
It's old (September 8, 2015), but has been pasted to about every major site over the years.
How about other melonited barrels, I have a personal issue with LWRC based off the upper I bout from them, but are their barrels not forged and melonited? What kind reports on these?
As another poster said, it was my impression the MR556 is not melonited or anything similar.
Are you sure the HK MR556's are melonited? I contacted HK to ask about this in 2013 and they told me their MR556 barrels are neither chrome lined nor are they melonited/nitrided. Maybe HK just started meloniting them?
Yes. HK USA confirmed they are coated.
C4
How about other melonited barrels, I have a personal issue with LWRC based off the upper I bout from them, but are their barrels not forged and melonited? What kind reports on these?
As another poster said, it was my impression the MR556 is not melonited or anything similar.
All the same. 3 of the largest gun companies have tested melonited barrels on their FA guns and decided to not use it.
C4
For those that don't know, the MR556 has a melonited barrel (not Chrome Lined like the 416). From talking to several BIG AR manufacturers, they reported that melonited barrels failed accuracy reqs well under 5,000rds when shot on FA. Apparently on SA, it takes a bit longer to fail (10k). Interesting....
C4
I had seen some stuff in the academic literature about nitrocarburizing breaking down at temperature/pressure extremes but nothing explained in detail. This is the first real world evidence of that i've seen. Makes sense when you think about the typical applications being gears, cams and external surface treatments, all things that don't see 3000+ deg and 40+ksi
KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 13:19
That was not surprising regarding the melonite... this was, a little:
USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell’s with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg’s with new weapons. We don’t have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.
Nothing is this thread is suprising to anyone who has been paying attention and is actually using/building guns.
Melonite is just a way for a manufaturer to claim their barrels have some type of surface treatment while the melonite really does nothing except generate profits on hobby/consumer grade firearms.
That was not surprising regarding the melonite... this was, a little:
Not suprised at all.
PatrioticDisorder
01-03-17, 13:34
Yes. HK USA confirmed they are coated.
C4
Isn't melonite a treatment and not a coating? And when did HK USA start having the Mr556 barrels melonite? There are companies and people who own MR556 uppers and rifles that have been paying to have their barrel nitrided (see link).
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/mr-556/
While i cannot find the link, on HKPro forum others have previously addressed the keyholing at 10k round issue and if memory serves me others have had the same problem due to copper fouling that was fixed after a thorough cleaning of the barrel (due to being non chrome lined or melonited).
KalashniKEV
01-03-17, 13:40
Not suprised at all.
I said "a little" because it contradicts what I had been told, but not my own experience.
I had seen some stuff in the academic literature about nitrocarburizing breaking down at temperature/pressure extremes but nothing explained in detail. This is the first real world evidence of that i've seen. Makes sense when you think about the typical applications being gears, cams and external surface treatments, all things that don't see 3000+ deg and 40+ksi
Right. With talking with some of these companies, it is pretty well assumed that the pressure and heat is what kills the barrels. Since that MR556 was shot SA, it just took longer.
On the flip side, quality CL barrels don't key hole till 20k or longer.
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Yes. HK USA confirmed they are coated.
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Thanks for the info, I was unaware of that.
Isn't melonite a treatment and not a coating? And when did HK USA start having the Mr556 barrels melonite? There are companies and people who own MR556 uppers and rifles that have been paying to have their barrel nitrided (see link).
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/mr-556/
While i cannot find the link, on HKPro forum others have previously addressed the keyholing at 10k round issue and if memory serves me others have had the same problem due to copper fouling that was fixed after a thorough cleaning of the barrel (due to being non chrome lined or melonited).
Correct. It is a treatment.
The inside of the barrel is melonited and not the outside. So that is what they are paying for.
C4
Isn't melonite a treatment and not a coating? And when did HK USA start having the Mr556 barrels melonite? There are companies and people who own MR556 uppers and rifles that have been paying to have their barrel nitrided (see link).
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/mr-556/
While i cannot find the link, on HKPro forum others have previously addressed the keyholing at 10k round issue and if memory serves me others have had the same problem due to copper fouling that was fixed after a thorough cleaning of the barrel (due to being non chrome lined or melonited).
I guess copper fouling could do it, you would have had to completely ignore cleaning your barrel for YEARS. To date in all my years, I have never seen this. Copper fouling wasn't the case for the Vegas range. They clean and lube their guns regularly.
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nightchief
01-03-17, 14:17
Is "QPQ Nitirte" the same as melonite with regards to barrel treatment?
NC
Is "QPQ Nitirte" the same as melonite with regards to barrel treatment?
NC
Yes. There are tons of variances of them (all trade marked). It is my understanding that these barrels might be plasma nitrided and done in Germany. This would make sense as the Europeans have so many rules about chemicals and such.
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Defaultmp3
01-03-17, 14:42
No factory treatment on MR barrels (both US and Euro market). Confirmed at factory.
Source: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/213081-chrome-line-vs-not-chrome-lined-mr556-vs-hk416.html#post1626005
MR556 barrels are imported as blanks and finished in GA. HK MR556 rifles are assembled in NH. No one nitrides blanks. The MR556 is not nitrided. My source of information is HK.
Mrgunsngear
01-03-17, 14:54
I visited Battlefield last year and I probably could have made 10x videos with all the information the armorers and Ron told me. I made a video covering some of the most asked about weapons but just didn't have time to go through all the weapons that I saw.
Great place to visit though with an equally awesome staff. As a side note---->seemingly every employee there made a point to tell me (when Ron was nowhere nearby) that Ron was a great guy to work for and genuinely gave a crap about their welfare----that says a lot to me.
http://youtu.be/PApRcRE-ft8
Source: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/213081-chrome-line-vs-not-chrome-lined-mr556-vs-hk416.html#post1626005
What is funny is that I read another thread by Montrala saying that inside of the barrel was finished. I also have info from my HK rep stating that they are.
If we remove that info for a moment, a non-finished CMV barrel (no CL or melonite) will not keyhole in 10,000rds. Nor will a SS barrel. Also, a CMV barrel that is none finished will rust if you aren't super cautious. So they for sure have a protective coating on them.
We also have a long time span here. Could HK have changed what they do in either Germany or where these barrels are finished in the US? Yeah, I think so. This would be why there are answers all over the place.
For me, I will stick with what my LE rep advised and just my knowledge about key holing and at what round counts it "typically" happens.
C4
I visited Battlefield last year and I probably could have made 10x videos with all the information the armorers and Ron told me. I made a video covering some of the most asked about weapons but just didn't have time to go through all the weapons that I saw.
Great place to visit though with an equally awesome staff. As a side note---->seemingly every employee there made a point to tell me (when Ron was nowhere nearby) that Ron was a great guy to work for and genuinely gave a crap about their welfare----that says a lot to me.
Cool. The simple fact that Ron takes the time to share data is awesome. Because you know that when he crushes someones "baby" that he must get hate mail for weeks.
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Defaultmp3
01-03-17, 15:13
If we remove that info for a moment, a non-finished CMV barrel (no CL or melonite) will not keyhole in 10,000rds. Nor will a SS barrel. Also, a CMV barrel that is none finished will rust if you aren't super cautious. So they for sure have a protective coating on them.Do you know if they actually use 4150 CMV for their barrels? Or if it's even in the CMV family? This would suggest to me that at the very least, it's not 4140/4150 CMV:
The barrel steel used by HK GmbH is provided to them by Aubert & Duval. It is based on decades of close coordination between HK and A&D. The proprietary "recipe" is known by only a few of those in the "technique" (technical) departments at HK GmbH. 20 years with HK and involved in many projects that pushed HK barrels to and beyond reasonable limits (MK23, MP5/10, G11, HK416, etc.) and that recipe (there are various ones for various applications) was never shared with me - no need. The bottom line was it was selected to provide the performance and safety that HK barrels are renowned for in worst case scenarios. I have posted many, many times here about industry leading performance of HK CHF barrels made from this steel. 2-4 times the service life of HK-made M134 MiniGun, HK416, HK GPMG, M27 IAR, etc barrels over the very best made elsewhere to include those employing stellite liners. It would be a major mistake for HK or A&D to share that/those proprietary steel(s) with anyone without an absolute need to know.Source: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/192466-what-kind-steel-used-hk416-417-a.html#post1547395
At the end of the day, while quite interesting, I personally see no reason to take this anecdote as being indicative of anything.
556BlackRifle
01-03-17, 15:15
Interesting. More industry marketing BS shown to be what it is by actual usage data. Gotta love that! I guess my Noveske CHF double thick chrome lined barrels are indeed better!! ;)
Do you know if they actually use 4150 CMV for their barrels? Or if it's even in the CMV family? This would suggest to me that at the very least, it's not 4140/4150 CMV:
Source: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/192466-what-kind-steel-used-hk416-417-a.html#post1547395
At the end of the day, while quite interesting, I personally see no reason to take this anecdote as being indicative of anything.
I am pretty sure they are using better barrel steel.
Vickers reported to me that Delta has 416's with well over 20,000rds on them and they still hold good groups. Those barrels are also chrome lined.
C4
It seems hypocritical to me that everyone is so quick to jump to conclusions based on a report of one example. And no one seems to even have accurate facts on that example. There seems to be conflicting reports about the barrel steel and whether or not it is treated/coated on the mr556.
Right. With talking with some of these companies, it is pretty well assumed that the pressure and heat is what kills the barrels. Since that MR556 was shot SA, it just took longer.
On the flip side, quality CL barrels don't key hole till 20k or longer.
C4
What I find really interesting about the whole thing is the melonited barrels tend to perform MORE poorly that a bare barrel, whether CMV or stainless. The typical temps for melonite are right in the middle of the tempering range for CMV steel. Two rounds of tempering could certainly reduce the hardness to a point wear accelerates.....
556BlackRifle
01-03-17, 15:33
It seems hypocritical to me that everyone is so quick to jump to conclusions based on a report of one example. And no one seems to even have accurate facts on that example. There seems to be conflicting reports about the barrel steel and whether or not it is treated/coated on the mr556.
He's a very credible person who keeps detailed maintenance logs on each of his weapons. To the best of my knowledge, Nitrocarburizing / Melonite is a treatment not a coating. It actually changes the metal surface and penetrates to a certain level below the surface.
Defaultmp3
01-03-17, 15:42
He's a very credible person who keeps detailed maintenance logs on each of his weapons. To the best of my knowledge, Nitrocarburizing / Melonite is a treatment not a coating. It actually changes the metal surface and penetrates to a certain level below the surface.Not to bash Battlefield Vegas at all, but the fact remains that n=1. Also, while nitriding is indeed a metal treatment and not a coating, I have always been told, including by H&K USA CS over the phone (though they're hardly the most accurate source of information), that the bore is bare and untreated; this obviously does not jive with what Grant has been told.
So, n=1, conflicting reports on whether or not the bore was nitrided. Not a great case study to show that nitriding is a poor choice. I'll also note that barrel life and keyholing are different things in this context, as being a rental range, their idea of keyholing is much more extreme.
He's a very credible person who keeps detailed maintenance logs on each of his weapons. To the best of my knowledge, Nitrocarburizing / Melonite is a treatment not a coating. It actually changes the metal surface and penetrates to a certain level below the surface.
I know what melonite/nitrocarbirizing is, I knew what it was way before it became mainstream. Glock has been using it on their slides and barrels for a long time.
It seems hypocritical to me that everyone is so quick to jump to conclusions based on a report of one example. And no one seems to even have accurate facts on that example. There seems to be conflicting reports about the barrel steel and whether or not it is treated/coated on the mr556.
I started the thread for discussion purposes (not proof that a melonited barrels suck). With that said, the vegas range report on the MR556 100% jives with what I have heard from Colt and other companies about their experience using melonited barrels.
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I started the thread for discussion purpose (not proof that a melonited barrels such). With that said, the vegas range report on the MR556 100% jives with what I have heard from Colt and other companies about their experience using melonited barrels.
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That was not directed at you Grant. I also agree with you that chrome-lined barrels are a better option for full-auto/hard use.
ETA: I'd be interested to hear from Nathan at Faxon considering they make both melonite as well as chrome-lined barrels.
Very interesting information. I don't have much experience with HK rifles. Before this, I've heard nothing but rave reviews about HKs hammer forged barrels.
What I find really interesting about the whole thing is the melonited barrels tend to perform MORE poorly that a bare barrel, whether CMV or stainless. The typical temps for melonite are right in the middle of the tempering range for CMV steel. Two rounds of tempering could certainly reduce the hardness to a point wear accelerates.....
Yes. Very odd.
C4
Very interesting information. I don't have much experience with HK rifles. Before this, I've heard nothing but rave reviews about HKs hammer forged barrels.
HK barrels ARE awesome. For instance, the CL'd 416 barrels are 1" guns with high round counts. So what we are really discussing here is melonited barrels. It just so happens that it is an HK barrel.
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That was not directed at you Grant. I also agree with you that chrome-lined barrels are a better option for full-auto/hard use.
ETA: I'd be interested to hear from Nathan at Faxon considering they make both melonite as well as chrome-lined barrels.
No worries. I am not married to the argument either way. I actually just picked up a melonited barrel for testing.
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Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 17:01
I still don't understand why HK doesn't offer their civilian model with the chrome lined barrels.
Defaultmp3
01-03-17, 17:13
I still don't understand why HK doesn't offer their civilian model with the chrome lined barrels.Supposedly it has to do with the fact that it's a target shooting oriented rifle. Probably helps it for export laws (the German exportation laws are a bear). Ironically, the newest generation of the MR rifles do have a chrome-lined barrel, but they're not available for purchase in the USA (I believe they're available in Canada, though); the main difference between the newest MR A3 rifles and newest HK A5 rifles is the lack of the adjustable gas block and select fire on the MR series.
Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 17:30
Sigh.
If they offered their chrome lined barrels I'd happily consolidate down to my Colt and an HK and be done with it.
BrigandTwoFour
01-03-17, 17:41
Interesting info. It jives with what I've heard about melonite (and similar) failing at the high temperatures seen during full auto, but I'm surprised at the keyhole issues in so few rounds. I'm not going to sell my one nitrided barrel any time soon, especially since it doesn't see full auto (or even an aggressive firing schedule), but it is a data point to keep in mind.
leibermuster
01-03-17, 17:44
Supposedly it has to do with the fact that it's a target shooting oriented rifle. Probably helps it for export laws (the German exportation laws are a bear). Ironically, the newest generation of the MR rifles do have a chrome-lined barrel, but they're not available for purchase in the USA (I believe they're available in Canada, though); the main difference between the newest MR A3 rifles and newest HK A5 rifles is the lack of the adjustable gas block and select fire on the MR series.
Yes they are now available on all MR variants going forward and we can get them in Canada. I actually really like the Match barrel, but shooting FA without doing some kind of treatment on it is asking for the problem they got. In the US it has to do with the US laws and German export laws, a combination of both. Also the optics and political situation is really bad, the things happening in Germany now on many levels will eventually if continue lead that country to a banana country and there production of fine cars, guns etc will be wiped out. But most importantly their ingenuity will die out for the obvious reasons.
A5 upgrades will be on the market eventually soon. Just as I said shorter barrels will eventually be coming out. Mind you who knows if some ass wipe find this post and puts it on MAD Merkels desk the whole arms industry in Germany could be made to disappear on her stupid whim..lol.
556BlackRifle
01-03-17, 18:40
Not to bash Battlefield Vegas at all, but the fact remains that n=1. Also, while nitriding is indeed a metal treatment and not a coating, I have always been told, including by H&K USA CS over the phone (though they're hardly the most accurate source of information), that the bore is bare and untreated; this obviously does not jive with what Grant has been told.
So, n=1, conflicting reports on whether or not the bore was nitrided. Not a great case study to show that nitriding is a poor choice. I'll also note that barrel life and keyholing are different things in this context, as being a rental range, their idea of keyholing is much more extreme.
I agree with you that this is just one datapoint and while interesting, you cannot form any conclusions.
I still don't understand why HK doesn't offer their civilian model with the chrome lined barrels.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe they can.
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Now what would be fascinating if we could take a 416 with a CL barrel and one that was melonited and compare them.
One theory I have is that the quality of the barrel really matters in regards to its longevity. Case in point, I am told that Swiss Arms has barrels with 70,000rds and they are melonited.
C4
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Now what would be fascinating if we could take a 416 with a CL barrel and one that was melonited and compare them.
One theory I have is that the quality of the barrel really matters in regards to its longevity. Case in point, I am told that Swiss Arms has barrels with 70,000rds and they are melonited.
C4
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Implying H&K barrels are trash, or just that the MR556 is? I don't know if I am following properly or if the 416 barrels are CL and melonited or if you mean the swiss rifles are running straight melonited barrels.
.
MeanCarbine
01-03-17, 19:38
I've read that entire thread and somewhere in there Ron states that in his opinion, chrome lined bbr are not needed in SA rifles and really only needed in heavy FA weapons. So to use the H&K as evidence that chrome lined is better may be a flawed argument.
Interesting. SwissArms does not chrome line. I've conversed with Ron at Battlefield Vegas. He mentioned that their Swiss 55x were at about the 60 or 70k round count, the US guns were at 100k. I didn't ask about how the barrels were performing. But then he did mention that they don't really shoot groups, only look for key holing.
Coal Dragger
01-03-17, 20:30
I could be wrong, but I don't believe they can.
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Well that sucks. Maybe HK should look at the writing on the wall and what the German government did to SIG, and seriously consider moving more production to the US. Maybe start importing that magic blend of steel and start forging those barrels here and then chrome lining them to their hearts content.
Super interesting exchange. Seems like a lot of data could be gained from such a place. Gonna have to ck it out next time Im in LV
Mrgunsngear
01-03-17, 22:57
Now what would be fascinating if we could take a 416 with a CL barrel and one that was melonited and compare them.
One theory I have is that the quality of the barrel really matters in regards to its longevity. Case in point, I am told that Swiss Arms has barrels with 70,000rds and they are melonited.
C4
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Well stay tuned to the Mrgunsngear Channel :D. I've been working on getting all the pieces for that test together for about a year now and I have IDENTICAL barrels: one CL, one melonited. I'm going to fire them full auto until they die. Then, if they're still functional and just need a new gas block or something I'll test them for groups (I'll do this ahead of the video as well). If they're not functional I'll check (and hopefully get images) of the bore/throat/etc... of what's left. Should be a good time :D
That thread had VERY positive things to say about palmetto state uppers.
When i worked at colt (few years ago) they were totally uninterested in melonite/nitrate
Does anyone remember that company called Superior Barrels? They called their process "hard blue". They did a bunch of testing. If I remember right, they claimed around 15thousand rnds and no noticable throat erosion.
FaxonNathan
01-04-17, 07:11
That was not directed at you Grant. I also agree with you that chrome-lined barrels are a better option for full-auto/hard use.
ETA: I'd be interested to hear from Nathan at Faxon considering they make both melonite as well as chrome-lined barrels.
Start another thread and I will be happy to chime in.
I've followed this topic with great interest for a couple years now. Until I switched careers (and moved to another state) I worked in the heat treating industry. Based on my previous years of experience in heat treating AND based on anecdotal evidence from others posting their findings on the internet, I have no use for melonite/nitride treaments INSIDE the barrel. My personal opinion concerning AR15 barrels is to stick with 4150CMV and no chrome chamber/bore for semi-auto use only (may be more accurate than chrome lined as well), 4150CMV with chrome for severe use/duty grade, or 410/416R stainless.
Well stay tuned to the Mrgunsngear Channel :D. I've been working on getting all the pieces for that test together for about a year now and I have IDENTICAL barrels: one CL, one melonited. I'm going to fire them full auto until they die. Then, if they're still functional and just need a new gas block or something I'll test them for groups (I'll do this ahead of the video as well). If they're not functional I'll check (and hopefully get images) of the bore/throat/etc... of what's left. Should be a good time :D
Looking forward to that!
Remember this is a sample size of ONE. This was one factory HK MR556 rifle that started keyholing at 10,000 rounds, not a fleet of them. While it's still valuable and interesting information, one rifles performance cant necessarily be representative of the design. And was his rifle melonited or non melonited (before HK started meloniting the MR556)? I spoke with HK at the beginning of 2013 and at that time they told me that all of their MR556 barrels were untreated (no meloniting/nitriding of any kind nor chrome lining).
Now what would be fascinating if we could take a 416 with a CL barrel and one that was melonited and compare them.
One theory I have is that the quality of the barrel really matters in regards to its longevity. Case in point, I am told that Swiss Arms has barrels with 70,000rds and they are melonited.
C4
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Now I'm a little lost. When the thread started I felt you were putting information forward with the intent of showing melonite is inferior to chrome lining and even an untreated bore. In this case using a barrel from a tier 1 company as proof.
Then you come back and say another tier 1 company uses it it to great success?
So do you now think melonite in general is not the problem? In this response you seem to blame the underling steel in the HK barrel for causing the melonite to fail? He I was thinking pretty much had some of the worlds barrel steel.
Could this be an issue that 'all the different' melonites are in fact… different, and the one HK uses sucks? Could this be a case of 1? I find it extremely hard to belive they do not have more melonited barrels from different companies as comparison.
Lastly back to LWRCi, they submitted a rifle for the individual carbine competition, they submitted a gun with a melonite barrel. Never heard any issues come out of that one either.
I'm not trying to say melonite is better than chrome in durability, I sure think it could be better for accuracy though. But you do not have me early convinced that melonite is that bad.
Start another thread and I will be happy to chime in.
Why won't you reply in this thread? It seems an appropriate place for it as the conversation is already underway in here.
Just got the phone with HKUSA and spoke to tech support who said… The barrel not lined or coated in anything corrosion resistant, he said it was bare for accuracy because it is a target gun.
Thats tech support. I feel the only place we are really going to find out from actual HK production or more likely engineering.
Just got the phone with HKUSA and spoke to tech support who said… The barrel not lined or coated in anything corrosion resistant, he said it was bare for accuracy because it is a target gun.
Thats tech support. I feel the only place we are really going to find out from actual HK production or more likely engineering.
That's what several different reps told me as well (in 2013). I think if HK spent money on an extra process to make the barrel more corrosion resistant & durable they would advertise it - which they don't. It would be nice to see how a fleet of these rifles perform over time. Too bad HK couldn't have Daniel Defense chrome line the barrels for them since DD was already finishing the barrels for them.
Start another thread and I will be happy to chime in.
?????
Doc Safari
01-04-17, 10:00
I hope there's no issue with posting a link to the TFB article:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/
It's old (September 8, 2015), but has been pasted to about every major site over the years.
From the article:
– USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell’s with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg’s with new weapons. We don’t have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.
I KNEW there was a reason I stick to GI mags.
(Judging from this thread's title I HOPE it's okay to discuss other things besides the MR556).
polydeuces
01-04-17, 11:14
Sorry Grant - don't mean to hijack your thread - but thanks for bringing this up and i hope you don't mind me putting this one on the table:
About a year ago I was in contact with the gentleman from Henderson Defense upon reading his VERY educational information on - of all sites - AR15.com
When suggesting he share this info on M4C - which I felt was a serious audience which would greatly appreciate his observations - this was his reply.
Verbatim:
"Hi Gene, yes, I did start a thread over at M4Carbine. It was actually stomped on by guys arguing about gas systems."
Gentlemen. I give you yet one more SME who no longer wishes to frequent M4C because of the petty argumentative and childlike behavior of a few members who feel it's appropriate to get into arguments with SME's while not contributing one positive iota to the general conversation.
Its endemic, shameful and it MUST stop!
Why the Mods don't interfere is beyond me - but if i have to sit by idly while we're losing VALUABLE CONTRIBUTING members (Molon, anyone?) chased away by those petty little people with their relentless ant f*#king, I'd rather walk away myself.
I think we're WAY past due for some serious conversation on this part.
Doc Safari
01-04-17, 11:19
Sorry Grant - don't mean to hijack your thread - but thanks for bringing this up and i hope you don't mind me putting this one on the table:
About a year ago I was in contact with the gentleman from Henderson Defense upon reading his VERY educational information on - of all sites - AR15.com
When suggesting he share this info on M4C - which I felt was a serious audience which would greatly appreciate his observations - this was his reply.
Verbatim:
"Hi Gene, yes, I did start a thread over at M4Carbine. It was actually stomped on by guys arguing about gas systems."
Gentlemen. I give you yet one more SME who no longer wishes to frequent M4C because of the petty argumentative and childlike behavior of a few members who feel it's appropriate to get into arguments with SME's while not contributing one positive iota to the general conversation.
Its endemic, shameful and it MUST stop!
Why the Mods don't interfere is beyond me - but if i have to sit by idly while we're losing VALUABLE CONTRIBUTING members (Molon, anyone?) chased away by those petty little people with their relentless ant f*#king, I'd rather walk away myself.
I think we're WAY past due for some serious conversation on this part.
Hate to say it, but I've observed a degeneration in post quality too. This place used to be a place where people intelligently discussed and disagreed, but I've seen too many posts turn into insult fests or "you don't know anything" type of responses.
Not saying I'm walking out, but I too would like to see people who don't contribute anything other than telling someone they're full of it to be shown the "banned" under their name.
Just my two cents.
KalashniKEV
01-04-17, 11:22
...petty argumentative and childlike behavior of a few members who feel it's appropriate to get into arguments with SME's
Why the Mods don't interfere is beyond me...
Hmmm... are you sure it was the members he was complaining about?
It would seem that ARFCOM has a higher rate of occurrence of dumbassery, and also SME interaction...
*ducks into triple sandbag fighting position*
polydeuces
01-04-17, 11:26
Yes. I am sure.
like: Verbatim:
"Hi Gene, yes, I did start a thread over at M4Carbine. It was actually stomped on by guys arguing about gas systems."
Remember this is a sample size of ONE. This was one factory HK MR556 rifle that started keyholing at 10,000 rounds, not a fleet of them. While it's still valuable and interesting information, one rifles performance cant necessarily be representative of the design. And was his rifle melonited or non melonited (before HK started meloniting the MR556)? I spoke with HK at the beginning of 2013 and at that time they told me that all of their MR556 barrels were untreated (no meloniting/nitriding of any kind nor chrome lining).
The ranges report started in 2015.
C4
Now I'm a little lost. When the thread started I felt you were putting information forward with the intent of showing melonite is inferior to chrome lining and even an untreated bore. In this case using a barrel from a tier 1 company as proof.
Then you come back and say another tier 1 company uses it it to great success?
So do you now think melonite in general is not the problem? In this response you seem to blame the underling steel in the HK barrel for causing the melonite to fail? He I was thinking pretty much had some of the worlds barrel steel.
Could this be an issue that 'all the different' melonites are in fact… different, and the one HK uses sucks? Could this be a case of 1? I find it extremely hard to belive they do not have more melonited barrels from different companies as comparison.
Lastly back to LWRCi, they submitted a rifle for the individual carbine competition, they submitted a gun with a melonite barrel. Never heard any issues come out of that one either.
I'm not trying to say melonite is better than chrome in durability, I sure think it could be better for accuracy though. But you do not have me early convinced that melonite is that bad.
This is an on going discussion point (one that I have had with several people spanning years to include talking to some that are keyed into Swiss made weapons just yesterday).
Lets break down what we know;
1. There are several ways to make a barrel.
2. There are lot of materials you can make a barrel out of.
3. There are several versions/variances of "meloniting" out there.
4. Colt (and other major gun manufacturers) tested melonite one FA fired guns and found that accuracy went to crap in a VERY low round count.
What we do not know;
1. Does the above #1 affect performance.
2. Does the above #2 affect performance.
3. Does the above #3 affect performance.
4. If FA fire negatively affect accuracy, how much longer does it take for SA fire take to show loss of accuracy/keyholing.
So at this point, I am in neutral position until we can see some testing on FA with round count verification + accuracy testing (at the same time) out to at least 50yds.
C4
Just got the phone with HKUSA and spoke to tech support who said… The barrel not lined or coated in anything corrosion resistant, he said it was bare for accuracy because it is a target gun.
Thats tech support. I feel the only place we are really going to find out from actual HK production or more likely engineering.
Interesting. I don't know how many people have exposure to a 4150/CMV barrel (that are untreated), but I do from Noveske. They made me barrels with NO chrome lining and no exterior finish. First, they don't look like the MR barrels and second, they rust. :-)
To date, I have never seen any complaints or issues with MR barrels rusting. So they definitely have a coating on them.
I lost a lot of my OLD e-mails when I lost my computer several years ago, but I will see if I can find the official e-mail from them saying they are coated. As I have stated, I think there have been changes to these barrels over time. I also found out that the following in my research on these barrels:
1. HK Germany was finishing the insides of these barrels and not telling HK USA.
2. HK USA did not classify "meloniting" as a finish (probably just a lack of understanding what this metal treatment does).
3. For those not aware, HK Germany and HK USA really aren't over "friendly/sharing" with each other.
C4
From the article:
I KNEW there was a reason I stick to GI mags.
(Judging from this thread's title I HOPE it's okay to discuss other things besides the MR556).
Please break out another section of the range report into a different thread so we keep on one topic of discussion at a time.
C4
Well stay tuned to the Mrgunsngear Channel :D. I've been working on getting all the pieces for that test together for about a year now and I have IDENTICAL barrels: one CL, one melonited. I'm going to fire them full auto until they die. Then, if they're still functional and just need a new gas block or something I'll test them for groups (I'll do this ahead of the video as well). If they're not functional I'll check (and hopefully get images) of the bore/throat/etc... of what's left. Should be a good time :D
As a subscriber to your channel I'm looking forward with the great interest and impatience to see the results.
Sorry Grant - don't mean to hijack your thread - but thanks for bringing this up and i hope you don't mind me putting this one on the table:
About a year ago I was in contact with the gentleman from Henderson Defense upon reading his VERY educational information on - of all sites - AR15.com
When suggesting he share this info on M4C - which I felt was a serious audience which would greatly appreciate his observations - this was his reply.
Verbatim:
"Hi Gene, yes, I did start a thread over at M4Carbine. It was actually stomped on by guys arguing about gas systems."
Gentlemen. I give you yet one more SME who no longer wishes to frequent M4C because of the petty argumentative and childlike behavior of a few members who feel it's appropriate to get into arguments with SME's while not contributing one positive iota to the general conversation.
Its endemic, shameful and it MUST stop!
Why the Mods don't interfere is beyond me - but if i have to sit by idly while we're losing VALUABLE CONTRIBUTING members (Molon, anyone?) chased away by those petty little people with their relentless ant f*#king, I'd rather walk away myself.
I think we're WAY past due for some serious conversation on this part.
I am not saying this isn't accurate, but I just checked and there is NO HendersonDefense user account on the forum. So unless he used a different account, I don't see that he was ever on here.
Molon still posts on here.
C4
1. HK Germany was finishing the insides of these barrels and not telling HK USA.
2. HK USA did not classify "meloniting" as a finish (probably just a lack of understanding what this metal treatment does).
3. For those not aware, HK Germany and HK USA really aren't over "friendly/sharing" with each other.
C4
This was basically the point I was trying to make. There is so much misinformation/confusion even between these two branches of the same company. It would be fool hardy to use this sample alone to disparage the melonite treatment. I would like to see some actual testing of a melonite barrel and chrome-lined barrel from the same manufacturer with the same profile tested against each other. I think that that would be a more viable example. Again, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or aren't entitled to there opinion, just to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions.
Coal Dragger
01-04-17, 13:45
I'm still curious how HK is able to salt bath nitride the inside of a barrel but not the outside as Grant seems to have been informed that they are doing. For one this makes no sense given the benefits to corrosion resistance of the exterior of the barrel, I'm also having a tough time understanding how it is even possible given the nature of a molten salt bath. How would you go about protecting the exterior of the barrel from the molten salt?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that unless the whole barrel exterior displays the inky black semi-gloss finish that nitrocarburizing imparts, then the interior is also not nitrided either.
Someone mentioned in another thread that the blanks are treated and then they are profiled here in the US. I don't know if that is accurate, just that it was mentioned.
Coal Dragger
01-04-17, 14:05
If that is the case that's horribly inefficient. Why in the hell would they do it that way?
I guess that's another reason the firearm is so expensive. Inefficient manufacturing practices.
I'm still curious how HK is able to salt bath nitride the inside of a barrel but not the outside as Grant seems to have been informed that they are doing. For one this makes no sense given the benefits to corrosion resistance of the exterior of the barrel, I'm also having a tough time understanding how it is even possible given the nature of a molten salt bath. How would you go about protecting the exterior of the barrel from the molten salt?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that unless the whole barrel exterior displays the inky black semi-gloss finish that nitrocarburizing imparts, then the interior is also not nitrided either.
The barrels came to the US un-finished (needing profiled). Nitride/Melonite is SUPER hard on cutting tools. So that is why they wouldn't do it. So that is my understanding why they did it.
C4
Agreed. But again, don't take that as fact, simply hearsay from another thread. I think the price is largely effected by all the hoops they have to jump through to bring the firearm to the U.S. market. Apparently German export laws, particularly pertaining to firearms, are a complete mess.
If that is the case that's horribly inefficient. Why in the hell would they do it that way?
I guess that's another reason the firearm is so expensive. Inefficient manufacturing practices.
Because Germany probably had a rule that they could only come into the US a certain way.
C4
Coal Dragger
01-04-17, 14:32
The barrels came to the US un-finished (needing profiled). Nitride/Melonite is SUPER hard on cutting tools. So that is why they wouldn't do it. So that is my understanding why they did it.
C4
Well if the inside of the blank is nitrided the outside would be as well, it's a molten salt bath so every exposed surface is getting case hardened. So they would still get to experience the wear on tooling of profiling those nitrided barrel blanks.
It makes no sense for HK to offer the current MR556 with the barrels they do right now, nitrided or not. If German export laws are that stupid the solution is make the part elsewhere.
PatrioticDisorder
01-04-17, 14:38
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/163411-mr556-barrel-coating-2.html
Apparently HK fanboys are just as confused regarding MR556 barrels...
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/163411-mr556-barrel-coating-2.html
Apparently HK fanboys are just as confused regarding MR556 barrels...
Yes. It is all over the place. Complicated by the fact that HK Germany and HK USA don't talk well.
C4
PatrioticDisorder
01-04-17, 14:44
Yes. It is all over the place. Complicated by the fact that HK Germany and HK USA don't talk well.
C4
And to think if they just CL their MR556 barrels like any other company manufacturing an AR variant worth their salt does we would be having an entirely different discussion.
Coal Dragger
01-04-17, 14:49
And to think if they just CL their MR556 barrels like any other company manufacturing an AR variant worth their salt does we would be having an entirely different discussion.
Yep mostly revolving around how to take that awesome barrel and buy it as a component part, and if a DI application were possible.
Since Daniel Defense finishes the HK MR556 barrels maybe someone at DD would have the definitive answer to this question.
WickedWillis
01-04-17, 17:28
I wish they would just handle and manufacture everything for the US market in the US.
Please bring this thread back to center, with intelligent data-driven commentary and the real world experience with product that makes content most valuable.
Since Daniel Defense finishes the HK MR556 barrels maybe someone at DD would have the definitive answer to this question.
They won't be allowed to comment.
C4
This is an on going discussion point (one that I have had with several people spanning years to include talking to some that are keyed into Swiss made weapons just yesterday).
Lets break down what we know;
1. There are several ways to make a barrel.
2. There are lot of materials you can make a barrel out of.
3. There are several versions/variances of "meloniting" out there.
4. Colt (and other major gun manufacturers) tested melonite one FA fired guns and found that accuracy went to crap in a VERY low round count.
What we do not know;
1. Does the above #1 affect performance.
2. Does the above #2 affect performance.
3. Does the above #3 affect performance.
4. If FA fire negatively affect accuracy, how much longer does it take for SA fire take to show loss of accuracy/keyholing.
So at this point, I am in neutral position until we can see some testing on FA with round count verification + accuracy testing (at the same time) out to at least 50yds.
C4
I agree with this statement. Since there are a few companies making rifles with melonite barrels (S&W is a popular one, and PSA).
I didn't read the entire thread, but if this is a sample size of one MR556, more tests are required to see if it is indeed a barrel issue (granted using full auto fire, not SA).
Mike Miller
01-07-17, 09:50
I am not saying this isn't accurate, but I just checked and there is NO HendersonDefense user account on the forum. So unless he used a different account, I don't see that he was ever on here.
His username was DoctorCheney223
pointblank4445
01-07-17, 10:19
Correct. It is a treatment.
The inside of the barrel is melonited and not the outside. So that is what they are paying for.
C4
I'm pretty sure melonite doesn't work that way.
...and perhaps your rep is confusing the rifle barrels with the pistol barrels which actually are melonited...inside and out
FaxonNathan
01-09-17, 07:07
I'm pretty sure melonite doesn't work that way.
...and perhaps your rep is confusing the rifle barrels with the pistol barrels which actually are melonited...inside and out
I am not sure how anyone could Nitride/Melonite only the inside or outside of a barrel. Typically, the barrels are exposed to 1000+ F molten salts or geaseous plasma which no known plug that I am aware of can handle that heat.
I know most of you have seen Henderson Defenses posts about what guns, optics and mags work. It is pretty telling. I was recently looking at some of his posts on another forum and thought I would grab a couple interesting topics to discuss.
The first one is in regards to the HK MR556:
For those that don't know, the MR556 has a melonited barrel (not Chrome Lined like the 416). From talking to several BIG AR manufacturers, they reported that melonited barrels failed accuracy reqs well under 5,000rds when shot on FA. Apparently on SA, it takes a bit longer to fail (10k). Interesting....
C4
Doesn't surprise me a bit.
Several times I have quoted various tests by the air Force and Army comparing nitrided barrels to chrome plated barrels. They have all shown chrome plating has a 25% to 30% longer life under heavy use.
The M242 Bushmaster Program Officer has also known this since 1990. (A quarter of a century ago....)
Not to bash Battlefield Vegas at all, but the fact remains that n=1. Also, while nitriding is indeed a metal treatment and not a coating, I have always been told, including by H&K USA CS over the phone (though they're hardly the most accurate source of information), that the bore is bare and untreated; this obviously does not jive with what Grant has been told.
So, n=1, conflicting reports on whether or not the bore was nitrided. Not a great case study to show that nitriding is a poor choice. I'll also note that barrel life and keyholing are different things in this context, as being a rental range, their idea of keyholing is much more extreme.
If you bother to research the issue the military has published several reports on the nitiriding vs chrome plating issue.
So, no it is not n = 1.
It is about n = several hundred + 1
Remember this is a sample size of ONE. This was one factory HK MR556 rifle that started keyholing at 10,000 rounds, not a fleet of them. While it's still valuable and interesting information, one rifles performance cant necessarily be representative of the design. And was his rifle melonited or non melonited (before HK started meloniting the MR556)? I spoke with HK at the beginning of 2013 and at that time they told me that all of their MR556 barrels were untreated (no meloniting/nitriding of any kind nor chrome lining).
The ranges report started in 2015.
C4
There is Army testing reports on the subject starting about 1975 and running through the present....
The barrels came to the US un-finished (needing profiled). Nitride/Melonite is SUPER hard on cutting tools. So that is why they wouldn't do it. So that is my understanding why they did it.
C4
It would be easier to manufacture and nitride a blank barrel, ship it to the US and have the blank profiled here, to conform to German export laws.
Cutting through a nitrided surface can be done, the nitiride layer is only on the surface, anywhere from 0.002" to 0.020" thick, after the first pass with the tool, that layer is gone, it is no more difficult or harder on the tooling than cutting any other piece of similar type metal.
After profiling, tossing them in a park tank wouldn't effect the nitride bore.
I'm pretty sure melonite doesn't work that way.
...and perhaps your rep is confusing the rifle barrels with the pistol barrels which actually are melonited...inside and out
I understand, but I believe you can plasma nitride one surface and not another (which is the rumor of what they do).
C4
It would be easier to manufacture and nitride a blank barrel, ship it to the US and have the blank profiled here, to conform to German export laws.
Cutting through a nitrided surface can be done, the nitiride layer is only on the surface, anywhere from 0.002" to 0.020" thick, after the first pass with the tool, that layer is gone, it is no more difficult or harder on the tooling than cutting any other piece of similar type metal.
After profiling, tossing them in a park tank wouldn't effect the nitride bore.
True, you can do that, but is still hard on the tooling. This goes back to the report from someone that was at the HK factory in Germany advising only the inside was done.
C4
There is Army testing reports on the subject starting about 1975 and running through the present....
Lysander, I am tracking the Chrome tests going back to the 70s. Can you point me to the modern Chrome vs Nitride tests? I know that big Army is looking at some crazy stuff for the next barrel lining. I have heard the phrase blast cladding.
Thanks
CD
We are Muricans and it is our right to jump to conclusions.
True, you can do that, but is still hard on the tooling. This goes back to the report from someone that was at the HK factory in Germany advising only the inside was done.
C4
Plasma nitriding can be done locally.
Salt-bath and gaseous nitriding have to have the entire piece done.
The equipment cost are higher, however, for plasma.
I recall reading the annotated version of the original thread here as well as the original ARF.com thread from 2015. The curious thing about the MR556 in Ron's posts and his replacement TD416 uppers was that he indicated this firearm was run full auto (and suppressed) 90% of the time. That is, it's my understanding that the 556 barrel, be it nitrided or bare, was not intended for this type of use (vs. the 416's chrome-lined barrel). Of course, one could argue that there are plenty of well made, "bargain" barrels that can handle this.
Original ARF thread:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High-round-count-AR-M4-s--over-100-000-rounds--and-how-they-have-handled-on-our-range.html&page=1
Post RE: full auto use:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High-round-count-AR-M4-s--over-100-000-rounds--and-how-they-have-handled-on-our-range.html&page=9
Lysander, I am tracking the Chrome tests going back to the 70s. Can you point me to the modern Chrome vs Nitride tests? I know that big Army is looking at some crazy stuff for the next barrel lining. I have heard the phrase blast cladding.
Thanks
CD
There have been a series of tests done on the M242 Bushmaster, which you might know was originally fielded with a nitrided barrel. When new higher performance ammunition was introduced in the early to mid 1990s, tests were run to confirm that the new ammunition would not degrade barrel life below the specified barrel life. One of the thing that came from these tests was, even the with the old ammunition, the barrel life was about half the specified life.
Standard barrels were pulled from spares and chemically bored over-sized and chrome plated, and then tested, These barrels lasted about 20% to 25% longer. New manufactured barrels were made with chrome plated bores, these last slightly longer than the first batch of chrome plated bores.
In the low rate of fire and single shot mode, the nitrided barrels met their expected service life.
(If you can access it the report is Technical Report ARCCD-TR-96002, 25-mm GUN SYSTEM WEAR ENGINEERING STUDY PROPOSAL 1A-0-8635)
In 2002, Boeing (having since bought the rights to the Bushmaster) did a similar study and got similar results, this one was released to the public:
Available Medium Caliber Barrel Life Improvements (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002gun/waterfield.pdf)
There is another study done back in the mid-1970, released to the public, but I can't find the link right now. This 1970s report is often poo-pooed by some by saying, "...the nitriding process has come a long way since the 1970s..."
True, but the compounds formed in the steel during the nitriding process have not. They are the same molecules of nitrogen and carbon mixed in with the steel, the only thing that has changed is how efficiently we get them there.
While these reports are not quantitatively translatable to the 5.56/.223 world, they are qualitatively translatable.
SomeOtherGuy
01-09-17, 20:50
Standard barrels were pulled from spares and chemically bored over-sized and chrome plated, and then tested, These barrels lasted about 20% to 25% longer. New manufactured barrels were made with chrome plated bores, these last slightly longer than the first batch of chrome plated bores.
In the low rate of fire and single shot mode, the nitrided barrels met their expected service life.
***In 2002, Boeing (having since bought the rights to the Bushmaster) did a similar study and got similar results, this one was released to the public:
Available Medium Caliber Barrel Life Improvements (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002gun/waterfield.pdf)
Looking at the Boeing presentation, they seemed to also focus on the propellant flame temperature. I assume this somewhat follows single vs. double base powders and newer high energy double base vs. older ones.
Between that and the bold statement above, is it reasonable to infer that nitride treatment works well at low to mild temperatures (cold bore, slow fire) but rapidly loses its benefits at high temperatures from either sustained firing or high energy propellants?
If that is correct, would it also be reasonable to think that, for a civilian shooter, a properly nitride-treated barrel would have a very long life, perhaps comparable to chrome, in slow fire use (hunting, deliberate target shooting) but lose some, but not all, of that benefit in civilian, semi-auto high rate of fire uses (3-gun or training classes)?
Looking at the Boeing presentation, they seemed to also focus on the propellant flame temperature. I assume this somewhat follows single vs. double base powders and newer high energy double base vs. older ones.
Between that and the bold statement above, is it reasonable to infer that nitride treatment works well at low to mild temperatures (cold bore, slow fire) but rapidly loses its benefits at high temperatures from either sustained firing or high energy propellants?
If that is correct, would it also be reasonable to think that, for a civilian shooter, a properly nitride-treated barrel would have a very long life, perhaps comparable to chrome, in slow fire use (hunting, deliberate target shooting) but lose some, but not all, of that benefit in civilian, semi-auto high rate of fire uses (3-gun or training classes)?
The flame temperature of the propellant will govern barrel life, no matter what coating or treatment you use inside the barrel. The hotter the flame the faster the steel is eroded. Current high performance propellants used today in anti-armor ammunition kills chrome plated bore very quickly, in some cases 1,500 rounds.
Nitriding will improve the life of any barrel above that bare steel, and bare steel in regular semi-automatic shooting can last a long, long time, depending on the propellant used. So, there is nothing wrong with a nitride barrel, they are great and prolong barrel life.
They just are not as good at prolonging barrel life as chrome plating, especially under extremely heavy full-automatic use.
I pour in some comments in random order.
1. I worked with Oerlikon Balzers Coating with some firearms related projects. They specialize in plasma (PVD and PACVD) coatings. Plasma coatings can not be used to work on rifle barrel bore as it can only penetrate holes as deep as 3*diameter. Also gas deposition process has problem with that. That is why best (if not only) solution for barrel bore nitiriding is salt bath as fluid salts have 100% penetration.
2. I was always very interesting in carbon nitriding since FB Radom was one of first (if not first) firearm manufacturer to use it at industrial scale for rfile barrels (however Polish military demanded that the CL barrels anyway). So when I got in touch with great folks from HK Gmbh this one of first topics discussed. To my disappointment they categorically stated that barrels for MR-series rifles are un-coated and un-treated except for stardard hardening process. This changed recently with introduction of MR223A3 and MR308A3 rifles that have CL barrels as standard from factory.
4. HK uses specially formulated steel designed specifically for small arms and medium caliber (up to 40mm) artillery . Most probably it is GKH (32CrMoV12.10) from Aubert&Duval (exclusive supplier of alloys for HK) as it especially good for cold swaging (and cold hammer forging). It is also very good for nitriding. One of hints that both MR556 and MR223 barrels are not nitrided is that while very hard they take re-profiling quite good, while HK pistol barrel, that are nitrided, are well known to destroy tools when someone tries for eg. to make groove for o-ring.
5. Standard HK warranty for barrel is for no noticeable loss of accuracy in 10,000 rounds. Here in Poland I know of 3 cases when MR223 barrel started keyholing under 10,000 rounds. First was mine after some 6,000 rounds (with 55gr and 62gr, 77gr was still subMOA). It turned out that I just needed to do some serious barrel cleaning and copper removal. In 2 other cases barrels lost accuracy in 1,500 and 6,000 rounds respectively. In both cases HK replaced barrel under warranty. In first case I had there was problem with hardening process of this particular barrel. I wonder if mentioned LV range tried to make warranty claim with HK on their barrel (I bet they did not).
6. I talked with one guy here who legitimately worn out his MR223 barrel. It did not keyhole, but went around 3+MOA. It took him some 25,000 rounds to come to this point. New HK barrel was around 25% of cost of new rifle here.
7. My personal opinion is that CL was a band aid introduced by Russia in WW1 to offset for poor steel quality and illiterate soldiers who neglected to maintain their rifles. Later, actually well after WW2 it kind of catch up worldwide Today with modern steel alloys used, non corrosive ammo, good level of maintenance more modern technologies like nitriding are better choice. But that's me. BTW Guys from FB Radom told me that nitriding barrel bore is very delicate process. Done to light and hardened layer will be to thin and will crack, done to much and hardened layer will become too hard and brittle and will flake out. Very good process control and strict QA are mandatory.
Lysander, I am tracking the Chrome tests going back to the 70s. Can you point me to the modern Chrome vs Nitride tests? I know that big Army is looking at some crazy stuff for the next barrel lining. I have heard the phrase blast cladding.
Thanks
CD
I looked around for phrase blast cladding. I found zip? Any links would be interesting to read.
I looked around for phrase blast cladding. I found zip? Any links would be interesting to read.
I used the wrong phrase. it's acutally "Explosive Bonding of Refractory Metal Liners" or blowing things up in a weapon barrel IOT install a liner. I don't know if it's go forward technology or not. The below link describes a proof of concept experiment with a soft metal. They believe they can do it with harder metals in the future. It kinda make you wonder how they thought it up.
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA428303
7. My personal opinion is that CL was a band aid introduced by Russia in WW1 to offset for poor steel quality and illiterate soldiers who neglected to maintain their rifles. Later, actually well after WW2 it kind of catch up worldwide Today with modern steel alloys used, non corrosive ammo, good level of maintenance more modern technologies like nitriding are better choice. But that's me. BTW Guys from FB Radom told me that nitriding barrel bore is very delicate process. Done to light and hardened layer will be to thin and will crack, done to much and hardened layer will become too hard and brittle and will flake out. Very good process control and strict QA are mandatory.
Japan was the first military to use chrome plated bore in small arms, starting around 1940. This allowed them to use lesser quality steel in the barrel, yet achieve barrel lives equal to that of US small arms that used high quality steel in the barrels. The Russians started to chrome plate small arms bores with the introduction of the SKS. By this time high quality barrel steel was available and used.
The US has been chrome plating large caliber guns since the late 1930s. It was found that chrome plating bores of artillery increased the life by about 25%, and reduced coppering, as well as the benefits of corrosion protection (very useful in naval artillery).
There is much evidence available to show that chrome-plating is the best method of prolonging barrel life, without resorting to such things as stellite liners, or other exotic liners.
Why this is the case is because chrome plating is a coating on top of the steel, and not part of the steel. The melting point of chromium is 3,465°F, the melting point of steel, even nitrocarburized steel is around 2500°F. As we noted, the flame temperature of typical small arms propellants is somewhere between 2700°F and 3500°F.
Yes, the flame and pressure are only present for and instant, but during that instant, some damage is done. Think of a gasoline fire flare-up that engulfs your hand for an instant, if the hand is naked, you might get first of second degree burns, but a light cotton glove will completely protect you for the damaging heat (That was the whole idea behind anti-flash gear on ships). Heat does not travel instantly through any material, it take a certain amount of time for heat to move from one side of the chromium layer to the other, and the actual temperature on the other side of the chromium layer depends on the thickness, but will always be lower than the surface temperature.
Chrome plating protects the steel from a portion of the heat, as well as provide a smooth hard surface for the projectile to slide across. Nitriding only provides a smooth hard surface, the heat from the propellant flame is placed on the barrel steel directly.
Anti-flash gear, just a thick cotton hood and gloves, but saved many from flash burns:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/HMS_Jamaica_gunners.jpg
I used the wrong phrase. it's acutally "Explosive Bonding of Refractory Metal Liners" or blowing things up in a weapon barrel IOT install a liner. I don't know if it's go forward technology or not. The below link describes a proof of concept experiment with a soft metal. They believe they can do it with harder metals in the future. It kinda make you wonder how they thought it up.
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA428303
Explosive cladding is more common than you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pr94Lk5a5k
Explosive cladding is more common than you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pr94Lk5a5k
Cool. Thanks for the link.
There have been a series of tests done on the M242 Bushmaster, which you might know was originally fielded with a nitrided barrel. When new higher performance ammunition was introduced in the early to mid 1990s, tests were run to confirm that the new ammunition would not degrade barrel life below the specified barrel life. One of the thing that came from these tests was, even the with the old ammunition, the barrel life was about half the specified life.
Standard barrels were pulled from spares and chemically bored over-sized and chrome plated, and then tested, These barrels lasted about 20% to 25% longer. New manufactured barrels were made with chrome plated bores, these last slightly longer than the first batch of chrome plated bores.
In the low rate of fire and single shot mode, the nitrided barrels met their expected service life.
(If you can access it the report is Technical Report ARCCD-TR-96002, 25-mm GUN SYSTEM WEAR ENGINEERING STUDY PROPOSAL 1A-0-8635)
In 2002, Boeing (having since bought the rights to the Bushmaster) did a similar study and got similar results, this one was released to the public:
Available Medium Caliber Barrel Life Improvements (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002gun/waterfield.pdf)
There is another study done back in the mid-1970, released to the public, but I can't find the link right now. This 1970s report is often poo-pooed by some by saying, "...the nitriding process has come a long way since the 1970s..."
True, but the compounds formed in the steel during the nitriding process have not. They are the same molecules of nitrogen and carbon mixed in with the steel, the only thing that has changed is how efficiently we get them there.
While these reports are not quantitatively translatable to the 5.56/.223 world, they are qualitatively translatable.
Lysander, many thanks. that's what I was looking for.
In the low rate of fire and single shot mode, the nitrided barrels met their expected service life.
Small edit that kind'a changes things...
This should read:
"In the low rate of fire and single shot mode, the nitrided barrels met their expected service life, with TP ammunition."
The hot APDS-T still wore out barrel faster than expected, the APFSDS-T even faster, even in single shot mode.
Torquetard
01-11-17, 09:30
How long til extractors need to be replaced?
Not that I have enough time to even shoot 10,000 rounds these days but I'm a little disappointed because I wanted a MR556. Very informative.
polydeuces
01-11-17, 12:38
I am not saying this isn't accurate, but I just checked and there is NO HendersonDefense user account on the forum. So unless he used a different account, I don't see that he was ever on here.
Molon still posts on here.
C4
Hi Grant - pm inbound.
Gene.
leibermuster
01-13-17, 08:30
Not that I have enough time to even shoot 10,000 rounds these days but I'm a little disappointed because I wanted a MR556. Very informative.
They were shooting the barrel on FA. Its a match barrel. Thats to be expected. And its a sample of one. Lol.
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They were shooting the barrel on FA. Its a match barrel. Thats to be expected. And its a sample of one. Lol.
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I am pretty sure it was SA. If not, please send a link that states otherwise.
C4
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Nothing is this thread is suprising to anyone who has been paying attention and is actually using/building guns.
Melonite is just a way for a manufaturer to claim their barrels have some type of surface treatment while the melonite really does nothing except generate profits on hobby/consumer grade firearms.
Absolutely! My personal opinion is that Meloniting a barrel is a cheaper shortcut some manufacturers are taking instead of chrome lining.
Chrome > Meloniting > untreated/unlined
leibermuster
01-13-17, 09:57
I am pretty sure it was SA. If not, please send a link that states otherwise.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was in the original thread on AR15.com if I remember correctly.
while much of this thread has been about the merits of CL vs no CL barrels, I was wondering if we could possibly take this discussion in another direction.
would anybody like to comment on or respond to how well PSA products(premium uppers and BCG's as well as the PSA FN barreled uppers.) run with Henderson defense/battlefield LV. I know the sheer mention of PSA causes some people to break out in hives but am just curious how this may be viewed by the community.
I've always been an LMT guy, been shooting them exclusively for the last 10 years or so, but am giving some thought into giving one of their uppers FN CHF uppers a try.
This is off the topic a little, but I think it needs to go here since the topic is BFLV:
Respect for Ron and the fact he has access to high round count weapons. Maybe he can speak to what I am about to say at a greater length.
That said, civilians blowing through rounds full auto sickens me.
Everything gun related in Vegas (besides SHOT, which has its nauseating moments) is made to make money. Not even remotely educate civilians on military grade firearms. It's basically a "take a picture of me with this gun" and the whole thing lasts under 15 minutes (if even).
Sad thing is, civs walk away thinking they have an appreciation for the kind of hardward they just used when it is anything but the case. I don't know Ron's operation and maybe he's one of the few out there that has some ethics behind his business, but most don't. See 9 year old girl with uzi.
Ron replies:
You couldn't be any further from the truth with your opinion but I will enlighten you about what we do and how we do it.
First, every single day that I am there (and I work six days a week at least 10-12 hours a day) I hear "oh my God.. I had no clue that's what it's really like" or "how did those guys do it during (insert WWII, Korea, Vietnam, OIF, OEF)" and the "wow.. I never wanted to touch a gun in my life but that's the most fun I think I've ever had". The customers DO walk away with an appreciation that THEY have because 90% of our guests don't own a weapon, let alone have ever seen a real, functioning example in person. Their only knowledge of a gun is from a movie where some actor holds two Uzi's or AK's and sprays across the scene killing every bad guy in sight. My staff are allowed to talk ZERO politics with guests and it always puts a smile on my face when I hear "I am from NYC/San Francisco and we just don't like guns but wow... that was SO different than what I thought it was going to be like... can I buy something like this where I live".
Now, add to the fact that over 90% (actually higher but I don't have the time to do the math) of my staff are either prior service or still in the Guard/Reserves and the respect and appreciation factor just doubled with our guests. Every single one of my RSO's is prior service or Guard/Reserves (as well as all our drivers and my managers) and a majority of them are OIF/OEF combat vets. You can hear their appreciation when they start asking "so ALL of you were in the military.. my gosh, thank you so much for your service (and I would bet 99 out of 100 people have never uttered those words in their life).
As for the making money comment... I don't employ 58 people just to give me something to do, of course it's to make money just like any other business model. It's called capitalism and that's what we do. I don't judge people for their occupations because as long as it's legal and you feel comfortable with it, all the power to you.
I deal with GI's everyday that have heavy baggage they brought home with them from Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody ever says the "PTSD" word because the minute you do, you're a "faggot" or "pussy". Meanwhile, as the employer I see it through their eyes and hear it in their words. I feel that I have a VERY generous policy towards PTO and if things are bugging you, take it. It also means that if you need to change from RSO to driver or driver to armorer, then so be it. It's put us in a bind more than once but since I claim we provide a "military experience", I as the employer, am also working in a "military experience". Everyday isn't sunshine and roses but I wouldn't trade a single one of my staff because they each bring their own "military experience" to work with them and that is what's made us so successful. I could go on and on about my staff because I know each of them by their name and they continue to raise the bar on what I think model employees should be. Quite a few of my guys are still in their twenties and medically retired from injuries they sustained while overseas. It lays heavy on my heart how these young men are so physically and emotionally damaged (IED's, blast injuries, falls, etc) but we adjust OUR schedule around them, not like most standard businesses.
Lastly, there are places like the ones you described here in Vegas. I know for a fact they are in it for the money and it's just an equation of how many customers can they get through the door and how fast can they get them through. They have the "gun girl" RSO's with hot pants, fishnet stockings and low-cut tops and that's 100% fine with me. They are providing a service to customers and they providing jobs. My problem is when they endanger employees and customers with shitty safety practices. We try to avoid hiring staff from other ranges because nobody wants retreads from places with bad practices but occasionally there are some gems among them. I know exactly how many ranges can give two shits about employees and lead hazards, throwing away filters contaminated with lead right into the garbage, writing employees up and firing them for having high lead levels (so OSHA doesn't find out how bad things are) or the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars we spend each month to ensure a safe environment for both my staff and guests. That may seem like a stretch to some of you but trust me, I would rather be spending that kind of money each month on something else but it what it is. It's the cost of doing business and keeping my staff safe.
As for the little girl in Arizona, the day that happened I had SO many of my RSO's come up to me and say, "damn Doc, you're right about those mini subguns". My staff had always asked for them (and the new RSO's as they came on board) but I always told them no little subguns unless we have a front strap for the wrist AND a suppressor. I must give credit to Tony D over at The Gun Store because he's the one that advised me specifically against the micro or mini Uzi's because of the rate of fire and transfer of weight with the heavy bolt causing the weapon to act like a teeter totter. I do have MAC's (.45, 9mm,.380) but again, they have huge and heavy Bower's suppressors to keep them down. Also, my staff has ALWAYS had the discretion to choose if a customer is suited for a particular weapon. If my RSO's don't feel comfortable with the customer and the weapons they chose, they are getting substituted with something can do and I usually refund the customer as well. It's worth the extra ammo so everybody is comfortable.
One last word about my staff. I hired a new driver two weeks ago. He initially turned in an application four weeks prior but let one of my managers know that he had used marijuana three weeks prior. My manager told him that we drug test and it wasn't a good idea to submit an application. He did come back in after waiting about three weeks and my manager spotted him submitting the application. He notified me and I told him lets review his application before just tossing it. Everything looked good; infantry E5 who was running and gunning and DD-214 matched up with application. I told my manager to go ahead and interview him on the spot. After all was said and done about his service, he called him out on smoking pot. He admitted that he's had issues adjusting since being home and he was hoping that it would help him relax but instead made him more depressed. He said he heard about a place where it' mostly GI's working together in a military-style environment and he was hoping he would fit in. I told my manager to hire him on the spot and start issuing him uniform, boots and get him out for a whiz quiz and background check ASAP. Two days later he walked up to me and asked if he could talk. I said of course as my staff know that I have an open-door policy for personal matters. He told me that he thinks this is the best thing that's ever happened. He said he's tried to get jobs at other places but when you go from 100 miles per hour to zero it hits you hard. When just a couple months ago when you were shooting people down range and you have your boys with you everyday life gets turned upside down when you can't talk about it with fellow employees who will think you're crazy and going to do something stupid. He looked at me with those same eyes I get from so many of the staff and said thank you for doing this. He said he needed to get back in uniform, he needed to talk to guys who are on his level and have been there, done that and can cope with words that come out of his mouth.
So, I am 100% at ease with myself, my business practices, my staff and the experiences that I feel our guests truly do appreciate here at Battlefield Vegas.
V/R
Ron
while much of this thread has been about the merits of CL vs no CL barrels, I was wondering if we could possibly take this discussion in another direction.
would anybody like to comment on or respond to how well PSA products(premium uppers and BCG's as well as the PSA FN barreled uppers.) run with Henderson defense/battlefield LV. I know the sheer mention of PSA causes some people to break out in hives but am just curious how this may be viewed by the community.
I've always been an LMT guy, been shooting them exclusively for the last 10 years or so, but am giving some thought into giving one of their uppers FN CHF uppers a try.
Here is what Battlefield Vegas said:
6/27/2015
As for FN barrels, I just recently purchased twenty of the complete PSA 12.5" and 10.5" uppers to test them out. So far they have functioned properly like the Daniel Defense and LMT's and have had zero issues. They don't have a huge amount of rounds through them but no issues of jamming have been reported. That's a good thing in our business because our customers come for the experience and having a weapon that jams is a deal-killer.
9/29/2015
The PSA uppers are running like champs and the RSO's like grabbing them first because of the short barrel. It creates a bigger flash, louder bang and bigger smile
We have lost one bolt due to a cracked lug but the round count and use is on par with others considering that some have been lost in longer/shorter periods than others. One cracked lug is nothing out of the ordinary for any of the LMT or DD bolts at this point in the length time and amount of use.
As for people have asked about the Palmetto State Armory uppers, another one of the PSA bolts broke yesterday as well. It was in a 11.5" upper and the bolt cracked in half at the cam pin section. This particular complete upper assembly went into service on 14 MAR 15. I checked the maintenance log and less than one month after the rifle going on the line, it had to have a cam pin replaced (cracked) and the extractor replaced on 02 APR 15. The weapon was taken out of service on 25 MAY 15 for "short stroking" by the RSO's. After an armorer had a chance to examine the rifle, it was actually a broken gas key in addition to two of the gas key eroding away. A new gas key and gas rings were installed and it went back into service. The staff didn't make any additional notes (other than headspace which was still good to go) during the days of maintenance until the bolt broke yesterday.
The PSA rifle is more of a "favorite" of the guys because they are fairly new, still look clean (though looking clean has ZERO to do with function and ALL about the customer's perception of a good or bad gun) and give a big flash and bang for the customer experience. It has seen almost daily service since going into service in March. We started doing the numbers on this rifle and here's a quick breakdown on a fair to conservative break down on round count.
It's fair to say that every M4 on the line sees a minimum of 250 rounds per day (and that's being VERY conservative). Take that number and average that to six days a week because they take it out of service one day each week for cleaning and maintenance (even then, once cleaned it goes directly back on the line). That would give us 26 days per month of use and it almost made it 6 complete months until the bolt completely broke. That averages out to 39,000 rounds of use for that upper assembly until the bolt broke and suffered a complete catastrophic failure. Because the bolt did break, the armorers checked the throat erosion (no issues) because they wanted to see for themselves how well it's handled.
We talked about the quality of the upper as a whole after all the notes were written down in the maintenance log. They asked me my opinion about the quality and if I would purchase more. I told them for what I paid for the complete upper (it's the "premium" model with the CHF barrel), the amount of use we got out of it AND that we will still get use out of it with the addition of another bolt, I would definitely purchase more.
11/2/2015
I talked to the armorers about the uppers and we have lost a second bolt to a lug cracking. We still think they are par with all the other uppers at this point considering they were all the shorty barrels.
11/12/2015
UPDATE: Palmetto State Armory
I've had quite a few PM's asking about the status of the Palmetto State Armory uppers. We have been running 5.56mm uppers with CHF and nitride 10.5", 11.5" and 12" barrel lengths as well as the 10.5" melonite 9mm uppers.
I never purchased melonite or nitrided uppers prior to these units (that I know of) and was actually more concerned about physical appearance to be honest. I know that even the cheapest barrels have lasted 10's of thousands of rounds with no issue but I wasn't sure how well the finish would hold up with all the cleaning and handling. As I've stated before, physical appearance is almost as important and functionality because customers who've never handled firearms before don't have much confidence in an ugly but reliable weapon. All three of the different types of uppers have held up with no issues or reliability of finish. These uppers in particular are getting used more than the others at this point because we put so many on the line.
With the 5.56 uppers, we've lost a total of 5 bolts since we put them on the line. I've paid particular attention to these uppers because I have to make sure that we are getting our money's worth (I know, they are cheap to begin with) and also reliable enough to give the customers a great experience. I've seen these guns with the PSA uppers on the line every day of the week and they just run. Of course we swap them out every few days for a cleaning but there isn't a day when there's at least 8 of their uppers on the line. The last three months have been a little busier than last year at the same time so the round count is higher than we expected for this time of the year. Depending when they went on the line, it's a fair estimate to say the lowest estimate for some is 30,000 rounds and up to 50,000 rounds on others. The uppers with the higher round counts have suffered from sheared/cracked bolt lugs but that is on par with bolts from other manufacturers.
2/4/2016
If there's one thing to take away from this thread it's that we have worried entirely too much about breaking parts, barrel wear, ect. It also shows you don't have to spend a fortune to get quality parts (PSA).
Posted: 4/20/2016 12:28:39 PM EST
We just pulled a Palmetto State Armory upper off a rifle yesterday. It has been in constant use since it went on the line back in October. It was one of the shorter barrels (10.5" or 11.5".. can't remember which) and the guys used this one quite a bit. It had the FDE Magpul furniture with DD Omega rail so it had the "look" the customers wanted. If you use my "math to guestimate" the round count, you will see this was a very HIGH round count barrel and I will gladly continue to use the PSA uppers. They haven't given me a discount, free upper, "shout out" or anything in exchange for opinion, just our experience here on the range after wondering if the finishes other than chrome actually held up.
you mentioned using palmetto state armory uppers. are you using their bcg as well or running something else?
We used the Palmetto BCG's and they are as reliable as the others we use. I will say though, the Colt BCG's have held up the best so far.
9/10/2016 8:52:22 PM EST
Update on Palmetto State Arms upper....
This is pretty impressive as one of my armorers (Danny Boy) wanted me to know how long is lasted.
This was a Palmetto State upper with the FN barrel and here's the history from the repair log:
- Put on the line 21 MAR 15
- Replaced bolt on 01 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 30 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 05 OCT 15, headspace good
- Barrel is starting to keyhole, pulled off the line 10 SEP 16
This upper has been put through the ring for almost a year and half and is now starting to keyhole. Very impressive and definitely got more than I expected out of it.
Testimonial on Colt:
Quite a few of you have asked about how the Colt M4's are holding up since being put on the line (according to our records, this particular rifle went on the line 02 OCT 15). They have handled very well with no broken bolts, no broken hammer/trigger pins, no eroded gas tubes or any other failures up until this week. I do want to put it out there that the RSO's really like these weapons. They were all outfitted with the exact same Magpul furniture in two different colors to help in swapping out weekly. They all have MOE handguards with a forward pistol grip to help control heat issues. These weapons get hot after several magazines and when you have parties of anywhere from 2-20 people shooting, the weapons are intolerable for the person who's never handled a firearm to enjoy the experience.
That being said, the RSO's have used these weapons every day of the week and migrate towards the Colt's. They have been on the line since the first week of October and as stated above, they haven't suffered from any issues up until this point. The only reason that I am bringing this up is because I was in the armory yesterday morning and I noticed on of the Colt's disassembled on the bench. It was a FDE model and I knew that those models were on the line and shouldn't be down for cleaning. I asked my armorer Danny Boy what the issue was and he said that the ejector spring was in about 7-8 pieces and that it actually happened to be the second one of the morning. I thought that was pretty odd for two ejector springs to go out in the same day. My other armorer Sean stated that he had already replaced two others early this week for a total of four Colt M4's to suffer ejector spring failure in one week. Also, the ejector pin spring sheared upon failure and had to be punched out.
For this rifle to have four HARD months of use and only suffer from a ejector spring failure is really good in my opinion but the fact that four went down with the exact same issue is what's strange. Also, we never saw the usual slow down during the November through February season and these weapons have continued to see high round counts. Without looking at numbers of rounds consumed for the time period it's fair to see these rifles have no less than 25,000-30,000 rounds through them.
Today is my day off but I will send a message to the armorers to go ahead replace all the ejector springs in the Colt M4's as preventive maintenance and to avoid malfunctions with customers on the range.
Thanks for the update. 25,000-30,000 is a lot of rounds for a ejector spring. I believe they have a maintenance plan of 10,000 rounds. So you tripled their expected life.
25-30K on the original bolts?
Yes sir. Not one bolt failure on the Colt's to date.
It was in the original thread on AR15.com if I remember correctly.
I was looking for that earlier, but I couldn't find where he actually said they were FA. But I did get the impression that the vast majority of their AR type guns were FA
Defaultmp3
01-13-17, 19:16
Rather interesting claim made by H&K:
First off, trying to compare apples to oranges is useless. If you want to compare HK's chrome lined barrels to anyone else's barrels I can guarantee HK will eat them for lunch. If you want to compare HK's non-chrome lined barrels to other companies chrome lined barrels in a semi-auto shoot off; we will still fare much better at the end in an accuracy test even though there might be more throat, bore & muzzle erosion in our barrel. The MR556 & MR762 rifle barrels were never designed nor intended for full auto use. Even so for a barrel to withstand 9,000+ rounds of relatively constant full auto fire is respectable. Consider the average currently produced Colt's barrel barely makes it to 7,000. FN barrels routinely make it past 10,000 however accuracy suffer. What no one seems to understand is not only does HK not only engineers barrels for longevity, but safety as well as long term accuracy; I.E. a barrel with throat & bore erosion near or at the reject point that still shoots better than the accuracy specs. Feel free to pull up actual evidence of other manufacturers accomplishing this on a routine basis.Source: https://www.facebook.com/hecklerandkoch/posts/1381740848533864?comment_id=1381760318531917&reply_comment_id=1382072321834050&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D
SomeOtherGuy
01-13-17, 20:25
Rather interesting claim made by H&K:
Source: https://www.facebook.com/hecklerandkoch/posts/1381740848533864?comment_id=1381760318531917&reply_comment_id=1382072321834050&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D
There's lots more in that facebook thread, but not much of value. Repeated assertions of fantastic HK barrel magic by a troll-grade HK rep. Nothing that's verifiable - no links to government or third-party studies, for example. It's quite a tall claim that HK's unlined barrel will outlast an FN chrome-lined barrel, since it's not like FN is a newbie to making quality barrels, or is unable to hire engineers and source quality steel. Unbacked claims might work against some random garage-Bubba, but not against a larger, older and more established arms maker with an equal or better reputation.
I'm interested in HK's official comments, but their Facebook rep is not doing them any favors.
I liked it when he told the guy he caused less barrels to be made that day.
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Coal Dragger
01-13-17, 23:13
I find it very difficult to believe that is an official HK USA facebook page, much less an actual HK rep writing those responses. Masterful trolling though.
That page has over 600K likes and appears to be the legit one based on Google searches.
I find it very difficult to believe that is an official HK USA facebook page, much less an actual HK rep writing those responses. Masterful trolling though.
Coal Dragger
01-14-17, 03:12
Well then HK USA should probably terminate that representative. Insulting potential customers and demeaning people is generally not a good way to improve the public image of a company.
Hmmm....I don't know. I can think of one gear provider who does that and it seems to work, lol.
Well then HK USA should probably terminate that representative. Insulting potential customers and demeaning people is generally not a good way to improve the public image of a company.
Coal Dragger
01-14-17, 04:09
Hmmm....I don't know. I can think of one gear provider who does that and it seems to work, lol.
I guess I don't get out enough so I'm not sure who you're referring to. Most of the industry professionals on here are nothing but strait forward and courteous. Even in the face of high levels of ignorance.
At any rate the HK rep posting all of that doesn't seem to be providing substantive reasons why their barrels are actually superior, aside from specious claims of "cannon grade steel" that evidently has magical properties that resist flame cutting and other damage caused by severe firing schedules. While I am not a metallurgist, even I can look at an answer like that and run up the bullshit flag.
The claims the MR556 is supposed to be a target rifle are pretty funny in my book. I don't think it's an eligible platform in NRA service rifle, not that it would be competitive if it were, and other target shooting disciplines tend to utilize barrels that are either affordable to replace or very durable at severe firing schedules or both.
So we have a commercial clone of a hard use high reliability combat rifle similar to the M27 IAR without one of the crucial hard use features. At HK's price point only HK collectors or serious users will be looking at them, and serious users may be let down.
Oh well, what do I know. They probably sell every one of them they make and could care less what I or anyone else think.
ClearedHot
01-14-17, 04:50
Hmmm....I don't know. I can think of one gear provider who does that and it seems to work, lol.
Mark Larue's bashing of forum trolls on TOS undoubtedly helped his sales. Not everyone/company can pull it off, but he did lol.
I am pretty sure it was SA. If not, please send a link that states otherwise.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are you referring to the Battlefield Vegas MR556? If so I recall Ron stating it was used in fullauto.
hotrodder636
01-14-17, 08:45
Interesting thread here. I only have one HK long gun and that is the SL8, so I don't have any useful data to provide for this thread.
However, if I can get 10k from a barrel I would be pretty happy. That is still a fairly significant amount of rounds for someone who is not funded by the .mil.
Straight Shooter
01-14-17, 11:35
Mark Larue's bashing of forum trolls on TOS undoubtedly helped his sales. Not everyone/company can pull it off, but he did lol.
NOT speaking for IG...but there is another gear maker..ex felon...out of TN who is so vulgar, such an un-believable asshole, Id carry my shit in a Walmart bag before I bought one f-in thing from him. There is just too much stuff made by other people to have to take crap like that.
noonesshowmonkey
01-14-17, 13:04
Here is what Battlefield Vegas said:
6/27/2015
As for FN barrels, I just recently purchased twenty of the complete PSA 12.5" and 10.5" uppers to test them out. So far they have functioned properly like the Daniel Defense and LMT's and have had zero issues. They don't have a huge amount of rounds through them but no issues of jamming have been reported. That's a good thing in our business because our customers come for the experience and having a weapon that jams is a deal-killer.
Depending when they went on the line, it's a fair estimate to say the lowest estimate for some is 30,000 rounds and up to 50,000 rounds on others. The uppers with the higher round counts have suffered from sheared/cracked bolt lugs but that is on par with bolts from other manufacturers.
2/4/2016
If there's one thing to take away from this thread it's that we have worried entirely too much about breaking parts, barrel wear, ect. It also shows you don't have to spend a fortune to get quality parts (PSA).
We used the Palmetto BCG's and they are as reliable as the others we use. I will say though, the Colt BCG's have held up the best so far.
9/10/2016 8:52:22 PM EST
Update on Palmetto State Arms upper....
This is pretty impressive as one of my armorers (Danny Boy) wanted me to know how long is lasted.
This was a Palmetto State upper with the FN barrel and here's the history from the repair log:
- Put on the line 21 MAR 15
- Replaced bolt on 01 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 30 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 05 OCT 15, headspace good
- Barrel is starting to keyhole, pulled off the line 10 SEP 16
This upper has been put through the ring for almost a year and half and is now starting to keyhole. Very impressive and definitely got more than I expected out of it.
Testimonial on Colt:
...
That being said, the RSO's have used these weapons every day of the week and migrate towards the Colt's. They have been on the line since the first week of October and as stated above, they haven't suffered from any issues up until this point. The only reason that I am bringing this up is because I was in the armory yesterday morning and I noticed on of the Colt's disassembled on the bench. It was a FDE model and I knew that those models were on the line and shouldn't be down for cleaning. I asked my armorer Danny Boy what the issue was and he said that the ejector spring was in about 7-8 pieces and that it actually happened to be the second one of the morning. I thought that was pretty odd for two ejector springs to go out in the same day. My other armorer Sean stated that he had already replaced two others early this week for a total of four Colt M4's to suffer ejector spring failure in one week. Also, the ejector pin spring sheared upon failure and had to be punched out.
For this rifle to have four HARD months of use and only suffer from a ejector spring failure is really good in my opinion but the fact that four went down with the exact same issue is what's strange. Also, we never saw the usual slow down during the November through February season and these weapons have continued to see high round counts. Without looking at numbers of rounds consumed for the time period it's fair to see these rifles have no less than 25,000-30,000 rounds through them.
25-30K on the original bolts?
Yes sir. Not one bolt failure on the Colt's to date.
This is a gold mine of great information.
As I'd asked in a previous thread, CNC Machining, QA/QC, And the World of Good Enough (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?191501-CNC-Machining-QA-QC-And-the-World-of-Good-Enough&p=2422373), if the current state of American manufacturing is at such high levels of precision and consistency, what exactly differentiates key components from one manufacturer and another?
The PSA gear appears to have two of the key components down:
1) FN makes a good barrel, all day long, and a double chrome lined barrel just shoots.
2) PSA has managed to find a way to mass procure mass produced BCGs that keep pace with their competition in terms of durability.
Again, back to the original argument made in that thread, in-spec components made from quality materials are good products, regardless of whose name is on them. That is the beauty of the AR-15 pattern and the development of mass production. That we have a statistically relevant sample set out of this firing range is a gold mine.
Finally, this is a fantastic verification of what everyone here has known and preached for a long time: COLT. If you are going to spend your hard earned sheckles on anything, you absolutely can't go wrong with COLT. The armorers gravitate towards the most handsome, durable, reliable, easy to maintain, well machined, well assembled, well executed examples of their weapon systems, and those just so happen to have a rampant pony on the side of the lower receiver.
Awesome info.
I'm very interested to get more information about the nitride process, barrel life, differences in manufacturing methods for these barrels, and the impact that SA vs FA have on their overall life. Probably the most actionable information on this subject so far has been the transition temperature difference between a nitrocarburized surface treatment and chromium. Science! It works!
PSA doesn't manufacture BCG's. They buy them like most of the industry.
This is a gold mine of great information.
As I'd asked in a previous thread, CNC Machining, QA/QC, And the World of Good Enough (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?191501-CNC-Machining-QA-QC-And-the-World-of-Good-Enough&p=2422373), if the current state of American manufacturing is at such high levels of precision and consistency, what exactly differentiates key components from one manufacturer and another?
The PSA gear appears to have two of the key components down:
1) FN makes a good barrel, all day long, and a double chrome lined barrel just shoots.
2) PSA has managed to find a way to mass produce BCGs that keep pace with their competition in terms of durability.
Again, back to the original argument made in that thread, in-spec components made from quality materials are good products, regardless of whose name is on them. That is the beauty of the AR-15 pattern and the development of mass production. That we have a statistically relevant sample set out of this firing range is a gold mine.
Finally, this is a fantastic verification of what everyone here has known and preached for a long time: COLT. If you are going to spend your hard earned sheckles on anything, you absolutely can't go wrong with COLT. The armorers gravitate towards the most handsome, durable, reliable, easy to maintain, well machined, well assembled, well executed examples of their weapon systems, and those just so happen to have a rampant pony on the side of the lower receiver.
Awesome info.
I'm very interested to get more information about the nitride process, barrel life, differences in manufacturing methods for these barrels, and the impact that SA vs FA have on their overall life. Probably the most actionable information on this subject so far has been the transition temperature difference between a nitrocarburized surface treatment and chromium. Science! It works!
noonesshowmonkey
01-14-17, 17:34
PSA doesn't manufacture BCG's. They buy them like most of the industry.
Edited the original to reflect that. Thanks.
I am pretty sure it was SA. If not, please send a link that states otherwise.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Likely full auto given the replacement TD uppers mated to the original MR556 lower were shot full auto as indicated in the ARF thread:
"The one thing that we did with the TD-415 upper different from the factory MR556 is that the TD unit has had a suppressor on it since day one. That's a LOT more gas and pressure and it's been on the line every day since my original post. I can't give you an accurate or even ballpark round count as I haven't had time to check the maintenance logs. I thought I would just give you an update on that specific unit since quite a few people asked me my opinion about it. That being said, I really like the upper. It cleans up easy and other than every single round being shot through it is suppressed and 90% of that being full-auto, just a spring failing seems like a minor issue. "
About 2/3rd down in this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High-round-count-AR-M4-s--over-100-000-rounds--and-how-they-have-handled-on-our-range.html&page=9
Defaultmp3
01-15-17, 01:14
So, we have what is probably an unlined barrel being shot full auto mostly, keyholing at 10k rounds.
GiddyHitch
01-15-17, 04:18
DMack was getting sub-MOA at 20k+ rounds on a melonited (actually Isonite QPQ) barrel in a PWS MK114 Mod0.
Also, keep in mind that that BLV is evaluating keyholing at 10y, not 100y or something. Their barrels are basically smoothbore when they're taken offline.
Likely full auto given the replacement TD uppers mated to the original MR556 lower were shot full auto as indicated in the ARF thread:
"The one thing that we did with the TD-415 upper different from the factory MR556 is that the TD unit has had a suppressor on it since day one. That's a LOT more gas and pressure and it's been on the line every day since my original post. I can't give you an accurate or even ballpark round count as I haven't had time to check the maintenance logs. I thought I would just give you an update on that specific unit since quite a few people asked me my opinion about it. That being said, I really like the upper. It cleans up easy and other than every single round being shot through it is suppressed and 90% of that being full-auto, just a spring failing seems like a minor issue. "
About 2/3rd down in this post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High-round-count-AR-M4-s--over-100-000-rounds--and-how-they-have-handled-on-our-range.html&page=9
MR's are SA only. So unless they drilled the hole converted it, this gun wasn't shot on FA.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MR's are SA only. So unless they drilled the hole converted it, this gun wasn't shot on FA.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maybe they used a FA lower?
Maybe they used a FA lower?
Somewhere in the thread he talked about Form 2'ing Colts to FA, so one could assume that he did that with the MR556.
Somewhere in the thread he talked about Form 2'ing Colts to FA, so one could assume that he did that with the MR556.
Agreed. I don't think Ron would be careless when speaking about how hard the uppers were run, spring failures, etc. They still offer a full auto 416: http://www.battlefieldvegas.com/products/hk-416-assault-rifle. Whether this is the same setup Ron was referring to in the 215 thread is unknown.
Defaultmp3
06-21-17, 17:39
As an update, a guy I know received a chopped off portion of an MR556 barrel (left over from an SBR conversion project) and looked at it under high magnification, and did not observe any white layer, which is highly suggestive of no nitriding of the bore. Combined with Montrala's statements, I think it's safe to say that the MR556's keyholing failures at Battlefield Vegas should not be blamed on the weaknesses of nitriding as compared to chrome lining.
As an update, a guy I know received a chopped off portion of an MR556 barrel (left over from an SBR conversion project) and looked at it under high magnification, and did not observe any white layer, which is highly suggestive of no nitriding of the bore. Combined with Montrala's statements, I think it's safe to say that the MR556's keyholing failures at Battlefield Vegas should not be blamed on the weaknesses of nitriding as compared to chrome lining.
You wouldn't find any white layer after the barrel has been used. The nitride layer is destroyed by the combination of heat and erosion.
There are a few studies on this.
Also, some nitriding processes require the white layer to be removed.
SomeOtherGuy
06-22-17, 09:11
You wouldn't find any white layer after the barrel has been used. The nitride layer is destroyed by the combination of heat and erosion.
I don't think defaultmp3 said what the round count was for that portion of the barrel resulting from an SBR conversion. It might be zero for all we know.
Even if it has some round count, how quickly would the far end of the barrel towards the muzzle lose its nitriding layer from use? The fastest rate of erosion is at the throat, and it diminishes away from the throat.
I don't think defaultmp3 said what the round count was for that portion of the barrel resulting from an SBR conversion. It might be zero for all we know.
Even if it has some round count, how quickly would the far end of the barrel towards the muzzle lose its nitriding layer from use? The fastest rate of erosion is at the throat, and it diminishes away from the throat.
The white layer can be removed by mechanical abrasion or through heat, and it is typically only a few microns thick.
Generally, the white layer is considered an undesirable feature.
Defaultmp3
06-22-17, 11:17
You wouldn't find any white layer after the barrel has been used. The nitride layer is destroyed by the combination of heat and erosion.
There are a few studies on this.
Also, some nitriding processes require the white layer to be removed.Interesting, I did not know that. I'll ask my source to see if he can do a hardness test, then.
However, as SomeOtherGuy noted, the barrel portion was from the muzzle, which I would think to have fairly little wear compared to the throat. It is my understanding that while the barrel was not brand new, the round count was quite low, and the gun had not been run hard.
Either way, I stand by my statement that blaming nitriding for the keyholing issue is not sound, given the conflicting information on the barrel.
From an Army report on nitrided barrels:
Nitride case hardening has been applied to all barrels surfaces including the interior diameter (ID), outer diameter (OD), and the gas port bore. The white layer and case hardening are evident throughout the barrel. These are particularly evident in the Location 4 metallographic images, see Figure 2.
A uniform white layer was present through the barrel. The thickness was measured at locations 2 and 5 and averaged 9.8 ± 1.4 μm (0.00039 ± 0.00006 in) where the stated uncertainty corresponds to one standard deviation (σ ) of the measured average.
The hard and brittle white layer is of a concern. This layer may spall during operation, entraining abrasive particles in the bullet/gas stream and leaving bore surface asperities. Complete removal of an average thickness white layer from the bore during firing would result in a diameter increase of 20 μm. The manufacturing drawing for the similar M16 barrel (ARDEC DWG 9349054, 8 November 2002) specifies a maximum 25 μm variance in the bore diameter, putting a barrel with a removed white layer very close to exceeding specifications. Partial removal of the white layer due to firing is expected to negatively influence system accuracy. Reduction or complete removal this layer during manufacturing is highly recommended.
From what I understand, most barrels are nitrided by salt bath or other methods that minimize or eliminate the white layer for the reason noted above.
dramabeats
06-22-17, 12:40
MR's are SA only. So unless they drilled the hole converted it, this gun wasn't shot on FA.
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
All of the guns he discusses in that thread are full auto. It's the allure of their business.
All of the guns he discusses in that thread are full auto. It's the allure of their business.
Wonder f they operate under a "dealer sample" type license or what?
I've forgotten how the various licenses work.
dramabeats
06-22-17, 12:47
Wonder f they operate under a "dealer sample" type license or what?
I've forgotten how the various licenses work.
It would be too expensive for them to not do that
Otherwise they wouldn't have a SAW (theres only like 1 or two that are transferable) or a m134
It would be too expensive for them to not do that
Otherwise they wouldn't have a SAW (theres only like 1 or two that are transferable) or a m134
I knew it would not be transferable stuff, just wondered if the dealer sample allowed retail rentals.
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