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ra2bach
09-17-08, 09:42
As a basis for a precision rifle, I see that most feature a receiver using or based on the Remington 700 action. Why is this?

I'm wondering if a Winchester M70 action (or common variant) can be used that would provide the same performance as those seen using the Rem action.

JStor
09-18-08, 18:17
If you prefer Winchesters, by all means go for it. There are many features of the Model 70 action that I find desireable, such as the massive integral recoil lug, the flat bottom design of the receiver, the three position safety and the ease of field stripping the bolt. Model 70s can be very accurate.

Remington 700s are usually quite accurate, but they are a different design, and I have never been able to fully warm up to what I perceive as shortcomings. That said, it is a personal preference thing more than anything.

theJanitor
09-18-08, 18:57
FN SPR's, which are quite accurate, are based on the W70. i especially like their controlled feed (i think that's what it's called) action. i can quietly and slowly retract the bolt and eject rounds very discreetly and neatly.

zac4551
09-19-08, 09:54
I have the FN but the aftermarket stuff is pretty scarce. The Rem 700 stuff is easy to find and you can find it used.

Mac679
09-19-08, 10:41
As a basis for a precision rifle, I see that most feature a receiver using or based on the Remington 700 action. Why is this?

I'm wondering if a Winchester M70 action (or common variant) can be used that would provide the same performance as those seen using the Rem action.

Okay, here goes (and my memory is a bit rusty).

Early in Vietnam, the Marine Corps used a couple of rifles they had in the inventory for sporting purposes as sniper rifles. These two rifles were the pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 and the Remington 700. Over time the pre-'64 M70s became harder and harder to come by. The pre-'64 M70s were far more desirable than the post-'64 M70s as there were design "improvements" made in 1964 that were less than well recieved. The Marine Corps started looking at having a dedicated sniper rifle and chose the M700 platform, which became the M40 family. The Army followed suit in the early 80's with the adoption of the M24SWS. So now you have the two major branches of ground combat utilizing the Remington 700 series of rifle as their primary SWS. LE Agencies followed suit and to make a long story short that's how the Remington 700 climbed to the top of the tactical bolt gun market. It wasn't until about 10 years ago (give or take a few years) that Winchester went back to a modified version of the pre-'64 Model 70.

And to answer your second question, yes. If I'm not mistaken, Gunny Hathcock used a Model 70 for a portion of his time downrange.

Damascus
09-19-08, 15:58
+1.
Most Win M70's that you can still find are the cheaper, base model ones, with the push-feed actions, which don't work very well at all, when compared to the Remington 700's push feed design.
The Pre-64' style of Winchester that's so sought after isn't a push-feed. It's a controlled-round feed. The difference is the big, claw extractor running down the side of the bolt. It is very similar to a Mauser extractor, which is a BIG part (if not THE part) that made Mauser rifles and actions so legendary.
This basically means that when the bolt first contacts the round in the magazine, the extractor gets hold of it, and you have complete control over that round. Also, when you retract the bolt, you can pull it gently, and silenty extract the case and just reach down and get it, OR, jerk back on that sucker and powerfully throw that case several feet to the side.
Ruger M77 rifles also use this big, Mauser style extractor, I think Winchester used to market this as the "Bear Claw" extractor, IIRC. The problem with Rugers though, is finding one accurate enough to be called a "sniper rifle"... I don't think they offer any heavy barreled or tactical variants, unfortunately.
FN bought and took over the Winchester plant that made M70's (New Haven?) so you can get an FN SPR with the pre-64 action, if you want one.
There's a reason though that the Remington 700 is the most widely used sniper rifle in the country, that is performance to price. You can get a sub-MOA M700 for well under $800, the actions work great, and there's nothing you could want that's not available through aftermarket accessories. I own or have owned almost every major bolt action rifle ever made, from AI to Tikka, and I must say, I am a M700 fan through and through, but there's features on the M70 I like better, namely the 3 position safety.

JStor
09-19-08, 16:54
The push feed Model 70s feed just as well as any controlled round feed Winchester or Remington 700 for that matter. Most of my Winnies are the controlled round feed, but I don't mind the push feed models at all.

The huge advantage Remington 700s have is they are cheaper to manufacture with their round tube action design. Their popularity drives the aftermarket accessory availability...but, you can buy the same components for Winchester 70s most of the time.

I have never found any problem finding any accessory that was worthwhile. I use Badger rings and bases and Talley's screw lock rings and bases. The same goes for the stocks. McMillan is where it's at. Everybody has different tastes, so one must simply decide what is affordable or preferrable.

If you are concerned with weight, the Model 70 action is one of the heaviest, so it may not be the choice for a real light rifle.

Damascus
09-19-08, 18:44
I was just comparing in my opinion. I have a Win M70 .30-06 and M70 7mm-08 thats push feed, and a Win M70 Laredo (heavy barrel) in 7mm Rem Mag and Win M70 Featherweight in .270 both w/ Pre-64' actions.
Comparing my push feed versions with my Remington 700's (700P, 700 SPS Varmint, and 700 standard), they aren't as reliable with all types of ammo. For example, when using blunt soft-points, with the Remington's, I can push the bolt closed as slow as I want. With the Winchester push feeds, if I don't push the bolt closed at least at a moderate pace, consistently, it will sometimes cause a jam.
My advice to OP, get whichever rifle you can get the best deal on, and the one that's in the caliber/barrel config you want.

JStor
09-19-08, 19:32
I accept and understand what you mean...just that it has been so many years since I used a Remington, that I can't compare side by side in a physical way any more.

It is nice to meet another Winchester owner. How does your Laredo shoot? I have mine bedded in an A5 McMillan, and it does pretty well with 160 grain Accubonds and 64.5 grs. RE22 in Winchester brass. It also likes Sierra 168 gr. Match Kings with a max load of H4831. Velocity is just under 3000 ft/sec. with both loads.

ra2bach
09-19-08, 22:17
thanks for the replies, guys. I'm pretty aware of the history of the Winchester CRF action and wondered why the Remmy is most often used for PRecision type rifles. you've answered most of my questions.

I have a W M70 Classic (w/crf) Supergrade in 7MM Mag and is shoots quite well on occasion. Since I don't hunt with it, I began wondering what I should do. It seems like it could be built very easily into a "longer" range practical/tactical rifle and that's waht I think I'll do.

thanks for all the replies...

Damascus
09-20-08, 13:43
I accept and understand what you mean...just that it has been so many years since I used a Remington, that I can't compare side by side in a physical way any more.

It is nice to meet another Winchester owner. How does your Laredo shoot? I have mine bedded in an A5 McMillan, and it does pretty well with 160 grain Accubonds and 64.5 grs. RE22 in Winchester brass. It also likes Sierra 168 gr. Match Kings with a max load of H4831. Velocity is just under 3000 ft/sec. with both loads.

My Laredo is a great rifle. Mine's chambered in .300 Win Mag. So far, I'm getting the best groups with 185 Lapua Scenar's and 190gr. Sierra Matchkings for under 500 yds, and my F-class loads are using 210gr. Berger VLDs (.631 BC) and I am experimenting with some 240gr. Matchkings (.711 BC), but haven't settled on a load for those yet, there just so darn long...
Mine's in an H-S Precision tactical stock, with Jewell trigger (2.2 lbs.), Badger Ordnance mount and rings, saving for a good scope for it, somewhere in the 5-20x power range, but right now it's using a Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 mildot. I also have an unchambered Hart barrel for it I traded someone out of a while ago, so when this barrel gets shot out, I'm toying with the idea of re-barreling this rifle and chambering that barrel in .30-378 or something, and adding one hell of a muzzle brake (I hate heavy recoil LoL). It's a big, heavy rifle tho. I shoot my .308 way more, which is a personalized version of an M24/M40 cross, that started out as a Remington 700 SPS Varmint w/ 26" heavy barrel. It's not a tack driver, it's a freakin' pin pusher!
I'd recommend anyone in the market for a tactical rifle, buy a M700 SPS Tactical (20") or Varmint (26"). These use the same barreled actions that come on the 700P and variants, but have cheap stocks (the cheap stocks are what keeps the SPS rifles affordable) and then upgrade with the stock that YOU prefer, OR, buy the 700P if you like that style of H-S stock, but personally, I'd prefer to buy something with an adjustable cheekpiece and vertical grip.

JStor
09-20-08, 17:38
I also shoot the .308 way more than my 7 Mag. The .308 is a Model 70 Sharpshooter sitting in an A5, but I shoot far more .223 than anything else. The .223 is perhaps my favorite cartridge for pure enjoyment. The accuracy of the factory barrelled Heavy Varmint Model 70 amazes me. It loves 55 gr. Sierra Game Kings and 69 gr. SMKs and Varget.

Sorry to the OP for getting away from the original subject too much. Everybody have a great autumn and hunting season.

ra2bach
09-20-08, 23:48
I also shoot the .308 way more than my 7 Mag. The .308 is a Model 70 Sharpshooter sitting in an A5, but I shoot far more .223 than anything else. The .223 is perhaps my favorite cartridge for pure enjoyment. The accuracy of the factory barrelled Heavy Varmint Model 70 amazes me. It loves 55 gr. Sierra Game Kings and 69 gr. SMKs and Varget.

Sorry to the OP for getting away from the original subject too much. Everybody have a great autumn and hunting season.

no-no, I love hearing about success with my favorite platform. for a while there, I was worried that I had a pig in a poke and had to re-invest in the Rem 700 platform in order to have a "presicion" rifle but your stories have helped to renew my faith.

thanks for the replies...

rljatl
09-22-08, 11:23
Here's the straight scoop from the Ed Brown Website as to why Remingtons are more accurate than Winchesters:

"Since the age of the 1898 Mauser, there has been a demand for the controlled feed action. Winchester has possibly done more than anyone to promote the advantage of the controlled feed design. When hunting dangerous game, where feeding could be a life or death situation, the controlled feed design has become the choice of many professional hunters.

Of course, dangerous game guns have never required a high degree of accuracy. One does not need a half MOA accurate 458 for stopping a charging Buffalo at 15 yards.

Much like reliability has been the realm of the Mauser/Winchester controlled feed action, accuracy has been the forte of the Remington push feed design. One finds the Remington push feed design to be the choice of benchrest shooters worldwide. This is due to the extreme accuracy inherent in the round receiver push feed design.

A Mauser/Winchester type controlled feed long extractor requires the removal of a large portion of the barrel threads where the extractor must go. Removing barrel threads does not provide for the most rigid assembly. This larger receiver cut also removes precious metal inside the receiver which is detrimental to the rigidity, and thus the accuracy of the entire assembly."

http://edbrown.com/htmlos.cgi/00651.1.045111156942345721

ra2bach
09-22-08, 12:32
Here's the straight scoop from the Ed Brown Website as to why Remingtons are more accurate than Winchesters:

"Since the age of the 1898 Mauser, there has been a demand for the controlled feed action. Winchester has possibly done more than anyone to promote the advantage of the controlled feed design. When hunting dangerous game, where feeding could be a life or death situation, the controlled feed design has become the choice of many professional hunters.

Of course, dangerous game guns have never required a high degree of accuracy. One does not need a half MOA accurate 458 for stopping a charging Buffalo at 15 yards.

Much like reliability has been the realm of the Mauser/Winchester controlled feed action, accuracy has been the forte of the Remington push feed design. One finds the Remington push feed design to be the choice of benchrest shooters worldwide. This is due to the extreme accuracy inherent in the round receiver push feed design.

A Mauser/Winchester type controlled feed long extractor requires the removal of a large portion of the barrel threads where the extractor must go. Removing barrel threads does not provide for the most rigid assembly. This larger receiver cut also removes precious metal inside the receiver which is detrimental to the rigidity, and thus the accuracy of the entire assembly."

http://edbrown.com/htmlos.cgi/00651.1.045111156942345721
Excellent! thank you so much for finding and posting this. It does a lot to clear things up.

In reality, I have always "felt" that my Winchesters were my hunting rifles and so I bought a Remmy to build up. Trouble was, I've got a M70 Classic SuperGrade in 7mm Mag with a factory barrel that on a good day, can shoot right there with the Remington.

so that got me thinking - always a bad thing when it comes to me....

Littlelebowski
09-22-08, 13:09
Hathcock used a 30-06 Model 70.

JStor
09-22-08, 13:38
Guys, we will just have to agree to disagree. I will good naturedly stick by Winchester 70s, and no flames are intended by the following statements. Rather, look upon them as reasons for my stance.

The Remington is a round receiver because it is cheaper to manufacture that way. The round receiver lends itself to ease of torquing when a cartridge is fired. High powered cartridges will loosen the bedding, sooner than later, hence my preference for a flat bottomed receiver with integral recoil lug as found on the Model 70. Aftermarket builders always replace the tiny front recoil lug on the Remy 700 actions with a larger unit to try to alleviate this. Epoxying the Remington receiver into a flat bottomed sleeve fixes the problem.

Ed Shilen brought out a bench rest action many years ago called the DGA. It had a flat bottom and sides for a reason.

Remington 700s do indeed have a deserved reputation for being accurate platforms, but if they are so rigid, why the need to apply sleeves to make them more competitive? The Model 70 action is the more rigid of the two. The push feed actions were used in plenty of competitions, and I've never seen a Model 70 with a sleeve.

These are merely design parameters. I've never liked the tiny extractor on the Remington 700s either, though they must work most of the time. Good day and good shooting to all of you.

Littlelebowski
09-22-08, 14:10
Anyone who thinks the Model 70 can't shoot as well as the 700 needs to go out and shoot an FN SPR.

I have a box stock Model 70 Stealth in 22-250 that is sub .5MOA from the factory with standard ammo. Everybody who shoots it walks away with a big grin on their face.

rljatl
09-22-08, 14:22
You guys feel free to talk yourselves into anything you want. I'll stick with what the majority of competition, police, and military marksmen CHOOSE to use. :D

Littlelebowski
09-22-08, 14:29
You guys feel free to talk yourselves into anything you want. I'll stick with what the majority of competition, police, and military marksmen CHOOSE to use. :D

Oh, so you must be using the FBI sniper issue FN SPR Model 70 actioned rifle! Good choice ;)

rljatl
09-22-08, 14:34
Ed brown may be on to something by combining the best of both. I do prefer controlled feed.

Littlelebowski
09-22-08, 14:42
The Accuracy International is a complete best of breed design for a little more than Ed Brown you get a lot more durability and innovation.