USGI mags outlast all others

[Doc Safari]

(As per Grant's request to start a new thread):

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/


...a rental range in Las Vegas has some extremely interesting findings when it comes to large round counts, sometimes in excess of 200,000 rounds through commercially available and full auto ARs. Granted, none of the grueling testing procedures in place from a military standpoint are there, but for sheer round count alone, it really tells a lot about what some companies can take and what others can’t when it comes to their rifles and products in general. This all stems from a forum thread on AR15.com that was started in June. His screen name is HendersonDefense, and there is a small arms company in Henderson, NV called Henderson Defense, but the range operations he is talking about are occurring at Battlefield Las Vegas, a big time rental range in Vegas.


Here’s a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can’t bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance logs on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month...


– USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell’s with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg’s with new weapons. We don’t have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

I just KNEW there was a valid reason to stick to USGI mags.

[RobertTheTexan]

I'm about 75/25 percent USGI vs PMAGs and Lancer mags. Wonder what their data shows on AR performance and reliability? Part failure per round count etc. it would seem that they are sitting on a goldmine of information with that granularity of data. Can Grant get to that data?


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[Averageman]

I've been slowly buying more USGI magazines after reading more about them here.
I'm almost at the 50/50 point here and I've been boxing the new GI Magazines up and stacking them deep in storage.

[RobertTheTexan]

This may be an obvious question... I do have a decent amount of Brownells, but lately I've been buying DSG steel mags.
They use tan followers but steel mags, Teflon coated. My thought process was that DSG really isn't manufacturing them, but someone like Okay or maybe Sabre Defense. Those DSG mags are still considered USGI right?
I'm guessing but doesn't another defense contractor likely make Brownell's mags?


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[hk_shootr]

Buy 'me cheap and stack 'em deep!

[recon]

So for us causal shooters that don't shoot that much I guess it depends on what you like and can afford. I get both the plastic type and USGI mags.

[SomeOtherGuy]

This may be an obvious question... I do have a decent amount of Brownells, but lately I've been buying DSG steel mags.

I think - I hope - you mean aluminum. Most of the actual steel mags on the market range from mediocre to total junk. Cammenga and HK may be exceptions, but both of those are rare, heavy and expensive.


They use tan followers but steel mags, Teflon coated. My thought process was that DSG really isn't manufacturing them, but someone like Okay or maybe Sabre Defense. Those DSG mags are still considered USGI right?

The DSG mags, and most other store-branded mags I've seen, are made by D&H. They are identical to GI mags in size/shape/material, although someone could get into a hair-splitting contest on whether they are "true" GI mags.

Other USGI contractors are OKAY Industries and Brownells.


I'm guessing but doesn't another defense contractor likely make Brownell's mags?


Although all other store-brand mags I know of are made by someone else for the store, my memory of the introduction of the Brownells mags is that Brownells actually contracted for their own stamping dies and manufacturing, and did not simply buy mags from D&H or OKAY. This is a memory from years back so I could be wrong. My memory is also that Brownells was a direct government contractor at the time, making and selling mags to .gov back when Iraq was hot and the gov was purchasing huge quantities.

[ReaperAZ]

I'm about 50/50 between USGI and "plastic" mags. Been starting to use the USGI mags more and more lately.

[Doc Safari]

Some of the cheaper USGI-style commercial aluminum mags appear to skimp on the outside coating and that may explain the price. For example, I've got mags with a shiny black coating instead of the military's dry film coating. I'm not sure if they are 100% made to GI spec other than the finish, but so far the ones I've used for six years or more and thousands of rounds have worked just fine.

I'm hoping someone with more knowledge can break down in detail what makes the commercial mags "near GI grade" or not.

[RobertTheTexan]

I think - I hope - you mean aluminum. Most of the actual steel mags on the market range from mediocre to total junk. Cammenga and HK may be exceptions, but both of those are rare, heavy and expensive.

My bad Doc - I meant aluminum mags. I think that was force of habit.




The DSG mags, and most other store-branded mags I've seen, are made by D&H. They are identical to GI mags in size/shape/material, although someone could get into a hair-splitting contest on whether they are "true" GI mags.

Thanks Doc, D&H was the other manuf. I was trying to think of. Most of my USGI mags have ranger plates so I cannot always see the manufacturer.
That's also good to know about DSG mags. I definitely trust their quality especially if they put their name on it. I've never been let down by a DSG Arms branded product.
I want to say the mags I still have from when I was in are all Okay mags. I'm thinking the Sabre Defense mags were just SD floor plates on either Okay or D&H maybe...
I have a few Okay mags from back in "the day", they still function as training mags. The finish is so worn down they appear almost brass colored.



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[austinN4]

I am 100% USGI mags.

[TMS951]

D&H mags with magpul followers are so cheap its hard to justify the Pmags.

I have a few different Pmags for color and interest. To me they are honestly a novelty.

The D&H mags with magpul follows and black coating are available from PSA and BCM in the 6-9$ range depending on the day. PSA is pretty consistent with 7$, but I saw 6$ for the first time the other day.

I can buy two D&H on average for the average price of a Pmag. Three of them for the price of something like a lancer.


Aluminium mags bend feed lips, this happens slowly, they can bit bent back a bit. Plastic mags crack and thats that, happens all at once, no fixing it. I wonder how this effects that ranges perception of what is lasting longer. My assumption would be they rent things not until they are "worn" but cease to function at all. They could squeeze more life out of aluminum mags in that case?

[GH41]

I am stocked at about 50/50 but I am no longer buying plastic magazines. I am buying grey OK mags for under 10 bucks and putting KAC followers in them.

[RobertTheTexan]

D&H mags with magpul followers are so cheap its hard to justify the Pmags.

I have a few different Pmags for color and interest. To me they are honestly a novelty.

The D&H mags with magpul follows and black coating are available from PSA and BCM in the 6-9$ range depending on the day. PSA is pretty consistent with 7$, but I saw 6$ for the first time the other day.

I can buy two D&H on average for the average price of a Pmag. Three of them for the price of something like a lancer.


Aluminium mags bend feed lips, this happens slowly, they can bit bent back a bit. Plastic mags crack and thats that, happens all at once, no fixing it. I wonder how this effects that ranges perception of what is lasting longer. My assumption would be they rent things not until they are "worn" but cease to function at all. They could squeeze more life out of aluminum mags in that case?

Make sense. And thanks for the heads up on PSA's mags. I own a good bit of Lancer mags, but that's because I only buy them when they are on sale. During the holidays I found them for $6.99 and scarfed up some more. I like them, don't know about how long they last, but they sure are solid and they are virtually silent when reloading. That's one more thing I like about them.

[Kvjavs]

Someone better call the USMC and let them know they've made a huge mistake.

[Averageman]

Someone better call the USMC and let them know they've made a huge mistake.

I think their budget is a little better than mine when it comes to buying replacements.
All my GI magazines are Okay's. I think I'm reaching the 30+ point now with having NIB Okay's.

[bighawk]

This doesn't really surprise me I have about 30 of the brownells with tan followers I've been using for the last 4 or 5 years no problems.

[jpmuscle]

So basically the consensus is the DH and brownells aluminium mags are considered gtg then correct?

[Ryno12]

So basically the consensus is the DH and brownells aluminium mags are considered gtg then correct?

A 10 pack of Brownells I bought once didn't work right out of the package. That was a couple years ago but I stopped at "fool me once".

Perhaps they're better now but with all the other good choices out there, I have no reason to give them a chance to "fool me twice ".

[TMS951]

So basically the consensus is the DH and brownells aluminium mags are considered gtg then correct?

I don't think DH actually supply the mil. Brownells does though. PSA and BCM have magpul followers in their mags, Brownells is the 'tan milspec' which is not magpul.

Okay industries are meant to be the really top notch actual milspec mag. Those with a magpul follower would be amazing. They are 4-5$ more than the DH.

Everyone's experience with the DH ones is they are gtg. BCM happily puts their name on them.

[wildcard600]

Interesting anecdote but I have trouble believing it just based on personal experience.

I have thrown out a couple of USGI type D&H mags that I have rendered inoperable in the last few years from drops, stepped on, stuff falling on them. I have yet to break a Pmag however. Once all my alum mags are used up/in the garbage I won't be buying any more.

Maybe GI mags do last longer under a heavy firing schedule, but they do not last as long under rough handling as a Pmag in my experience. I think i'll stick with the new USMC type mags.

YMMV

[Mysteryman]

So range use by amateurs is considered a validating source for reliability and durability of magazines? We all know that magazines are CONSUMABLES right? I guess the feed lip creep of a USGI is a myth and stepping on them does nothing to damage them either..

[Pilot1]

I have a bunch of Colt, Adventure Line, and Simmonds USGI mags. Mostly 20 rounders. They've always worked great, but I also have some P Mags, and they've worked well also.

[GH41]

A 10 pack of Brownells I bought once didn't work right out of the package. That was a couple years ago but I stopped at "fool me once".

Perhaps they're better now but with all the other good choices out there, I have no reason to give them a chance to "fool me twice ".

When Brownells got into the mag business for Uncle Sam they had a large lot of many ten thousands that didn't make the cut. Do you really think they threw them away? I am sorry but I look at Brownells as the JC Whitney of gun stuff.

[Kain]

So range use by amateurs is considered a validating source for reliability and durability of magazines? We all know that magazines are CONSUMABLES right? I guess the feed lip creep of a USGI is a myth and stepping on them does nothing to damage them either..

I'm kind of here. I need more than just a statement of "USGI outlasts polymer mags." How so, in what conditions, how many rounds, what platforms, what numbers? There are too many questions here raised for me to give credence to one side or the other. I mean this seriously. If you mean mag for mag purchased that the USGI mags are lasting longer then the Pmags under the same course of fire? Are both mags seeing similar round counts in the same weapons? If not, what is the difference in round count or platform. If your Pmags are getting 3X the number of rounds to the USGI mags, well then that might explain a lot. But the statement makes nothing that I can break down. Are you saying that USGI mags are lasting longer then polymer mags in general, in which case what polymer mags and under what conditions and round counts.

I'm sorry OP, the statement you've got posted there just doesn't give me any appreciable data that I can make a worthwhile conclusion from other than broad strokes. And If I just go by what a shooting range sees I'd make the conclusion from what I have seen in shooting ranges that AKs and Glocks are the most unreliable POSs ever made because they are the guns I have seen malf and go down the most followed by 1911 and then a distant 5th by the AR 15, 4th would be the M&p series of handguns. This ignores numbers and conditions, and twenty other factors though.

[scottryan]

Brownells consumer "USGI" magazines are factory rejects from the DOD contract line.

Buy a Brownells magazines and compare it next to a Colt/Okay magazine.

The fitment between the floorplate and body has a large gap on the Brownells magazine. The overall workmanship on the Brownells magazine is less.

[Jwknutson17]

While their experience may or may not differ from others on here, they are still a small sample size. I have had some sort of issue over the years with all different mags including both USGI and magpuls. That doesn't stop me from buying either and I will continue to own both. I rotate through a box of 50 mags that include a few different kinds. When and if I get a stoppage, the mag gets a marked pant pen line under the number. If it gets 2 lines, it goes in the trash. Not worth the 8-14 bucks to keep it in the rotation. When one mag of Mk262s costs the same as 2 window pmags, no point in keeping them after 2 failures.

[OH58D]

I have a bunch of Colt, Adventure Line, and Simmonds USGI mags. Mostly 20 rounders. They've always worked great, but I also have some P Mags, and they've worked well also.
If you ever run across Sanchez GI Mags, they're kind of collectible. Not because they worked good, but because we'd stomp them flat whenever we were issued the damn things.

[Iraqgunz]

A few things that are being overlooked here.

1. Magazines are consumable.

2. Magazines such as the PMAG and Lancer are much easier to disassemble, and therefore easier to clean.

3. USGI mags have had feed lip issues (hence the feed lip tool) from use and abuse. I doubt that the Vegas experience is replicating what type of use and abuse they get in the military. Until recently still had shitty followers.

4. The Brownells commercial mags, are not the same. I have a few of the Brownells ones and they do not compare to the NHMTG/USGI tan-ish colored follower magazine. They also cannot be rebuilt with standard followers or springs.

Finally use whatever makes your heart pitter-patter. I use a combination of magazines USGI/Colt/NHMTG, Magpul, Lancer, Surefire-60's and D-60 drums.

[Iraqgunz]

I think I have some Dirty Sanchez's somewhere. Only like 3 or 4. I upgraded the followers and springs to make them work.


If you ever run across Sanchez GI Mags, they're kind of collectible. Not because they worked good, but because we'd stomp them flat whenever we were issued the damn things.

[vicious_cb]

What do they mean when they say outlast? What about more reliable? Or more durable? If by outlast they mean handling hundreds of cycles of reloading and emptying the mag before the mag becomes unserviceable then thats only one metric to look at. If you are operating out of a pristine indoor range where you have rows of benches and tables where mags are lightly handled then that maybe thats the only metric that matters. Personally Id rather have a mag that feeds reliably when clean or dirty, resistant to impact damage and rough handling and that has a reasonable service life. If the pmag feeds more reliably due to its feed geometry and is more impact resistant but loses out to the USGI in service life then so be it, Id still rather have the pmag.

[drjaydvm]

Does anyone have any experience with Beretta steel mags? I got 6 of them with my ARX100. Aside from the thick coating of grease, they seems pretty nice. They do have a metal follower though. I have lancer mags for 300blk, a mix of d&h and brownells for 5.56.

[markm]

Brownells consumer "USGI" magazines are factory rejects from the DOD contract line.

Buy a Brownells magazines and compare it next to a Colt/Okay magazine.

The fitment between the floorplate and body has a large gap on the Brownells magazine. The overall workmanship on the Brownells magazine is less.

I've had some Brownell's mags that are pretty wild. They do run, but the stampings are all over.

[markm]

I think I have some Dirty Sanchez's somewhere. Only like 3 or 4. I upgraded the followers and springs to make them work.

Get some of those Coopers if you want some real poopers!

[markm]

delete - double tap

[Doc Safari]

Some legitimate concerns raised...I guess the best thing would be to take them up with Ron at Henderson Defense on that thread on TOS.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High-round-count-AR-M4-s--over-100-000-rounds--and-how-they-have-handled-on-our-range.html


I think Ron was just talking about GI mags lasting longer than any others in terms of use in the firearms. I don't think anyone would argue that a polymer mag is as likely to dent as an aluminum mag.

My take: He is saying that USGI mags last the longest in actual use, ignoring other things such as operator abuse and lack of maintenance. Or at least that's how I interpreted his statement.

"Take care of your mags and they will take care of you" seems appropriate here.

EDITED TO ADD:

Here's what he says on that thread about "mag abuse" at his place of business:


The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

[26 Inf]

Brownells consumer "USGI" magazines are factory rejects from the DOD contract line.

Can you give us a source for that info?

The only reason that I ask is, damn, that is a lot of rejects. I have over 80 of the little rejected devils, and I'm sure other folks were buying them just as rapidly as I was.

[OH58D]

I think I have some Dirty Sanchez's somewhere. Only like 3 or 4. I upgraded the followers and springs to make them work.
Back in the early to mid 80's, we didn't have the luxury of replacing springs and followers with upgrades. If we found a turd magazine, it never went back in the pile or the problem "diagnosed"...it was destroyed. Sanchez Enterprises was one that we eliminated without much discussion. The exceptions were ones that ended up in the trunk of some NCO's Buick and made it to the surplus joints down the road off base.

I have heard that Center Industries of Wichita, KS produced a problematic mag, but I never had a single failure with one. I think they're still a DOD contractor.

[Iraqgunz]

I hear ya, since I entered into service in the mid 80's myself. Unfortunately, in my unit the Supply Sgt. acted as if he paid for mags out his retirement fund, so if you were fortunate to catch him on the day he would allow mag turn-ins, they would go into locker. Your replacement wasn't guaranteed to be new.


Back in the early to mid 80's, we didn't have the luxury of replacing springs and followers with upgrades. If we found a turd magazine, it never went back in the pile or the problem "diagnosed"...it was destroyed. Sanchez Enterprises was one that we eliminated without much discussion. The exceptions were ones that ended up in the trunk of some NCO's Buick and made it to the surplus joints down the road off base.

Parson's absorbed Adventureline which was then scooped up by Center Industries as I recall. Centerlines' deal was they employed disabled persons and paid them the same as other workers. Not sure what their current status is. I know they laid off a significant amount of people a few years back. They were specifically making weapons stuff (assuming magazines).

I have heard that Center Industries of Wichita, KS produced a problematic mag, but I never had a single failure with one. I think they're still a DOD contractor.

[RobertTheTexan]

I hear ya, since I entered into service in the mid 80's myself. Unfortunately, in my unit the Supply Sgt. acted as if he paid for mags out his retirement fund, so if you were fortunate to catch him on the day he would allow mag turn-ins, they would go into locker. Your replacement wasn't guaranteed to be new.

I came in about the same time and I think every single single time I needed anything from the Supply Sergeant they acted like it was coming out of their own pocket. I fourth it was something they taught them in AIT. Lol


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[OH58D]

I hear ya, since I entered into service in the mid 80's myself. Unfortunately, in my unit the Supply Sgt. acted as if he paid for mags out his retirement fund, so if you were fortunate to catch him on the day he would allow mag turn-ins, they would go into locker. Your replacement wasn't guaranteed to be new.
I went in just a little earlier; ROTC contract signed in August 1977, went to basic in 1978. Started college Fall of 1978. At that point in my life, regarding magazines, I didn't know beans from bullshit. By the time I went with two battalions of my Regt. to Central America in 1984, I had figured out that all magazines were not created equal, and not all DOD contractors were to be trusted. It's a thing you figure out over time.

The previous statement regarding Coopers jogged my memory. However, we used to say that OKAY Magazines are OK.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I have mostly PMAGS. I like USGI mags just fine but one of the things I really like about PMAG's is they're either good or they're broke, they don't slowly work their way out of spec. I also feel a lot better about constantly dropping p mags on concrete when practicing mag changes or at matches.


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[TMS951]

I bet this magazine is the tits. Okay mag with black teflon and factory installed magpul follower. 12.50$ w/ free shipping.

https://www.44mag.com/product/okay-industries-ar15-magazine-30-round-black-teflon/okay-industries

Edit: I purchased 10 out of interest. These are also cage coded and date coded. I will update when I get them. For almost twice what you can sometimes get the DH mags for I am interested to se if they are really twice as good, I doubt it but I do think they may have better quality assurance?

[C4IGrant]

Considering that the range is going to have many different "platforms" that accept a USGI type mag, it does make sense to me that they would have the most reliability with a standard USGI mag. The reason is that a lot of these non-AR type firearms are picky on what works and what doesn't.

For me, I have had the best luck with BCM (D&H mags with Magpul followers) and the HK polymer mags. I also own PMAG's (GEN 1/2/3) and Lancer mags.

My only advice is to just make sure your gun likes the mags you bought. If not, then ditch it. Don't follow what is "trendy" or popular.



C4

[ace4059]

A 10 pack of Brownells I bought once didn't work right out of the package. That was a couple years ago but I stopped at "fool me once".

Perhaps they're better now but with all the other good choices out there, I have no reason to give them a chance to "fool me twice ".

Brownells had a bad batch of mags go out after sandy hook. They have a 100% satisfaction policy. They will replace them. I have nothing but wonderful things to say about Brownells.

ETA: And yes they make their own mags, but I cant verify if they are "seconds" or "out of spec". They would probably give you a refund if you asked.

[Doc Safari]

Any manufacturer can have a bad run of products, particularly during a period of high demand where production equipment is running at capacity.

I always refer to this type of product as "wartime production."

That's why you always pick reputable manufacturers and sellers with a good replacement and/or warranty policy, and it's why you don't buy crap stacked on tables at gun shows.

[1911-A1]

I have a billion gen2 and 3 pmags and a healthy stash of BCM/DSG USGI mags, but my go-to mags are NHMTGs with L-plate baseplates and magpul followers.

Pmags are great, but they're a little heavier than aluminum and don't drop free in everything, and M3s don't work in my ARX at all.

[scottryan]

ETA: And yes they make their own mags, but I cant verify if they are "seconds" or "out of spec". They would probably give you a refund if you asked.


What I meant by that is they probably didn't meet an AQL sampling level and got pushed off to commercial sale.

I would never buy these, when one can get real deal NHMTG/Colt/Okay for a similar price.

[scottryan]

I bet this magazine is the tits. Okay mag with black teflon and factory installed magpul follower. 12.50$ w/ free shipping.

https://www.44mag.com/product/okay-industries-ar15-magazine-30-round-black-teflon/okay-industries

Edit: I purchased 10 out of interest. These are also cage coded and date coded. I will update when I get them. For almost twice what you can sometimes get the DH mags for I am interested to se if they are really twice as good, I doubt it but I do think they may have better quality assurance?





I'd rather have USGI gray dry lube and mint green follower.

[Waylander]

I have mostly PMAGS. I like USGI mags just fine but one of the things I really like about PMAG's is they're either good or they're broke, they don't slowly work their way out of spec. I also feel a lot better about constantly dropping p mags on concrete when practicing mag changes or at matches.


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This.

I bet this magazine is the tits. Okay mag with black teflon and factory installed magpul follower. 12.50$ w/ free shipping.

https://www.44mag.com/product/okay-industries-ar15-magazine-30-round-black-teflon/okay-industries

Edit: I purchased 10 out of interest. These are also cage coded and date coded. I will update when I get them. For almost twice what you can sometimes get the DH mags for I am interested to se if they are really twice as good, I doubt it but I do think they may have better quality assurance?
I'll bet they're just OK. [emoji1]

[SkiDevil]

I don't know if any of you guys have had the chance to visit the 'Full Auto' ranges in Vegas but the employee or RSOs practically hold your hand when you are on the firing line. They stand next to you, load the rifle, smg, whatever, and carefully observe as you fire controlled bursts.

This has been my general experience in visiting several of these ranges to eliminate my full auto bug. I don't recall if I ever went to this particular range, but they all were pretty much the same. I went to the full auto ranges almost every time that I went to Vegas.

With the RSOs typically loading, and unloading the rifles, not sure how much abuse happens from dropping a magazine into a bucket.

There was one of the smaller places in an industrial part of town, by the strip club row, where the owner/ operators were not as anal. After a couple of magazines and displaying that I could safety handle and fire an M4 on auto they left me on the range by myself. Good times, but pricey came out to about a buck per round if you added everything up. Still cheaper than buying NFA if it's even an option.

P.S. My favorite AR mags are the 20 RD Okay/ Surefire. I have PMags, but love those little 20 rounders.

[Averageman]

I bet this magazine is the tits. Okay mag with black teflon and factory installed magpul follower. 12.50$ w/ free shipping.

https://www.44mag.com/product/okay-industries-ar15-magazine-30-round-black-teflon/okay-industries

Edit: I purchased 10 out of interest. These are also cage coded and date coded. I will update when I get them. For almost twice what you can sometimes get the DH mags for I am interested to se if they are really twice as good, I doubt it but I do think they may have better quality assurance?

I own a bunch of these, 35 or so. I didn't buy them because I thought they were twice as good, but that they would still be good to go 25 years from now.
They are great magazines. I just have confidence that when I hand off a rifle to my grandkids, I can give them ten Okay magazines and they will be good to go.
Mag Pul magazines are great magazines and they may last me a lifetime, but Okay Magazines are the ones I will always count on to last decades.

[lysander]

(As per Grant's request to start a new thread):

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/08/ar-endurance-findings-at-a-rental-range/







I just KNEW there was a valid reason to stick to USGI mags.
Well, now that the USMC has adopted the Gen 3 PMAG as "standard", they can be considered "USGI" as well . . . . .

[lysander]

I'd rather have USGI gray dry lube and mint green follower.
Tan, is the plan,
Green is good,
Black go back.


(Army mnemonic for magazines, now dated, since the fielding of the EPM, with the blue follower.)

[RobertTheTexan]

Tan, is the plan,
Green is good,
Black go back.


(Army mnemonic for magazines, now dated, since the fielding of the EPM, with the blue follower.)

Funny then what was acceptable vs now. I got a large batch of mags w/green followers and they lasted all of about an hour until
I swapped em out for tan.


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[Iraqgunz]

Are we talking about the tan followers from the latest GI mags that use a proprietary spring?

[JusticeM4]

D&H mags with magpul followers are so cheap its hard to justify the Pmags.

I have a few different Pmags for color and interest. To me they are honestly a novelty.

The D&H mags with magpul follows and black coating are available from PSA and BCM in the 6-9$ range depending on the day. PSA is pretty consistent with 7$, but I saw 6$ for the first time the other day.

I can buy two D&H on average for the average price of a Pmag. Three of them for the price of something like a lancer.


Aluminium mags bend feed lips, this happens slowly, they can bit bent back a bit. Plastic mags crack and thats that, happens all at once, no fixing it. I wonder how this effects that ranges perception of what is lasting longer. My assumption would be they rent things not until they are "worn" but cease to function at all. They could squeeze more life out of aluminum mags in that case?

I can get $10 Pmags locally. Yes GI mags are cheaper online. but it doesn't mean that the service life of Pmags are significantly less or worse for the casual shooter who only shoots a few hundred rounds a month in his AR15.

I have a fairly equal stash of Pmags, GI, and Lancers but mostly use the Lancers and Pmags without issue.

If you're shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds in different rifle platforms, then yes sticking with GI mags would make sense.

[Roklok]

Someone better call the USMC and let them know they've made a huge mistake.

Exactly what I was thinking, but I think the Marines know what they are doing.

[bobco]

It will be interesting to see what the USMC thinks of the mags five years from now. Regarding the metal vs plastic debate for me it really depends on application and use. I like them both. Metal mags have been proven in heavy use for over 50 years, good enough for me to conclude that they are of reasonably good quality. Plastic mags are somewhat of a more recent design, but seem to work well and have some nice benefits. My impression is that if you buy decent quality either will work, work well AND last a long time. Buy poor quality mags either plastic or metal and they won't run.

[Waylander]

It's too bad those plastic Steyr AUG and plastic pistols have been falling apart since the 70s and 80s or we might have solid test data.

[bobco]

It's too bad those plastic Steyr AUG and plastic pistols have been falling apart since the 70s and 80s or we might have solid test data.

Original Glock mags deformed when fully loaded, Glock replaced them with metal lined mags. Original Steyr mags cracked continually at the rear of the mag, they were considered one time use. I took ten to the range fully loaded and came home with 7 that functioned. The more recent designs are much better.

[RobertTheTexan]

Are we talking about the tan followers from the latest GI mags that use a proprietary spring?

IG,
I think you were asking Lysander your question, but the mags I pulled the tan followers from were pretty old, at least well worn on the exterior and spring. I didn't note if the springs were different but the follower secured the same.
Is the new proprietary spring only in mags issued to military?


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[ST911]

Original Glock mags deformed when fully loaded, Glock replaced them with metal lined mags.

Deformed? How so?

[26 Inf]

Original Glock mags deformed when fully loaded, Glock replaced them with metal lined mags.

The original mags were not designed to drop free, hence no full body metal liner, however they did have a metal liner, the feed lips have always been metal. From the Austrian Army's perspective this was so the soldier could more easily retain the mag to reload.

U.S. preferences are for drop free magazines, Glock responded by fully lining the magazines to keep the polymer sides from flexing out, giving birth to the infamous Glock Zipper talked about in Glock Armorer Courses.

[26 Inf]

Deformed? How so?

As I noted above, but did not fully explain, the original mags did not have full body liners. This allowed the sides of a loaded magazine, or partially loaded, magazine to flex out, hampering the ability of a partially loaded magazine to drop free, allowing for retention.

This was an intended design feature. It was altered for the preferences of the U.S. market. The non-FML mags have a U shaped notch on the top rear of the mag and the FML drop frees have a square shape notch at the top rear of the mag.

[ST911]

As I noted above, but did not fully explain, the original mags did not have full body liners. This allowed the sides of a loaded magazine, or partially loaded, magazine to flex out, hampering the ability of a partially loaded magazine to drop free, allowing for retention.

This was an intended design feature. It was altered for the preferences of the U.S. market. The non-FML mags have a U shaped notch on the top rear of the mag and the FML drop frees have a square shape notch at the top rear of the mag.

Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that and have the earliest mags in hand. I wanted to see what a guy using a word like "deformed" would say about it. ;)

[lawusmc0844]

Seems everyone online is using Battlefield Vegas' range report as the end all be all but they don't take into consideration that BF Vegas and the other full auto machine gun ranges in Vegas are clean, static environments. The majority of people firing the weapons are tourists from all over the world, with RSOs doing all the other weapons handling for them. The magazines aren't being used and abused in combat in places Afghanistan or Syria.

I find it funny people here love USGI mags but my personal experience is the opposite. In the Marine Corps every weapons failure I'd had was from worn out POS aluminum mags that should not be allowed to be reissued in the first place. Even brand new Brownells tan follower magazines gave me double feeds, and since they aren't compatible with standard springs or Magpul followers I still refuse to use them. I've bent and damaged aluminum mags just landing on them prone during field training and I've had several that wouldn't drop free that I had to hammer back into shape. USGI mags don't show any visible indicator when they don't drop free or cause feeding issues.

I loved PMAGs as soon as I bought my first one back in 2008. When they started to become more prevalent in military use, every KD range I went to said they won't give any alibis if any malfunctions happen with aftermarket polymer mags but I never once had a malfunction with PMAGs or Lancers and I shot expert so I didn't worry about that at all. I haven't had any PMAG crack from use and I still have Gen 1s bought back in 2009 that I've ran hard or kept loaded for long periods of time. At least if PMAGs break you will see it and that is a good indicator to shitcan them and get replacements. PMAGs are easier to disassemble, clean, doesn't use a flimsy aluminum floor plate and comes standard with anti tilit followers. And there have been many recent deals on PMAGs, at times even cheaper than USGI.

As for dropping free, in my experience PMAGs drop free in all of my lowers. I've had several USGI mags, even ones that look like they've never been issued drop free in one lower but tight in another one, causing me to take the hammer out. All of those are made by Center Industries, which I've never been a big fan of. Okay Industries, Adventureline are the best my experience. I recently sold 2 DSI Sanchez mags that I test fired first and they worked fine as well.

I mainly use M2, M3 PMAGs and Lancer AWMs these days. All my USGI mags are backups, and they are all retrofitted with Magpul followers as I hate all 3 USGI followers. The only exception is USGI 20 rounders, those things are awesome and don't need any modification to work.

[bobco]

Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that and have the earliest mags in hand. I wanted to see what a guy using a word like "deformed" would say about it. ;)

What adjective do you prefer? ;)

[KTR03]

What adjective do you prefer? ;)

Maybe "swelled per the design spec" might be more accurate than deformed.

[bobco]

Maybe "swelled per the design spec" might be more accurate than deformed.

Ok, I'll agree. Let's move on.

[lysander]

Exactly what I was thinking, but I think the Marines know what they are doing.
If you knew the Marine Corps you wouldn't be saying that, with such apparent confidence....

But, they are right more often than not. But, this is a problem of their own making.

Most of the problem the Marines have with EPMs is they are less reliable in the M27, they work fine in the M16/M4. If you look at the chamber area of the M27, you might notice that it does not have the 120 degree chamfer prior to the radius, it just has a radius (see the images below). Picatinny did some testing and it showed rounds stripped from the EPM sometimes hit the rear of the barrel, where the chamfer would be on the M16/M4. On the M16/M4 the chamfer would guide the nose of the bullet into the chamber, Since the chamfer isn't there on the M27, it hits the flat rear face of the barrel and fails to feed.

FTF with the M27 with EPMs is rare, but happens enough that in combat such an occurrence was deemed unacceptable.

The point is the Marine Corps screwed up in not specifying the geometry of the rear of the barrel should be the same as that of the M16/M4. But the M27 was essentially a COTS item, another minor screw-up. What works well in the civilian world, with H&Ks supplied magazines may not work in combat as well with a wide variety of various manufacturer's offerings. Now they have restricted themselves to a single supplier of magazines, something that could have been avoided.

http://i.imgur.com/s00vGNH.jpg?1
H&K chamber, note the flat rear face of the barrel.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlSmh4ug8hp4EnwnVgSN9Y3ckQXhsAsEQjuAYQ-2CL2QbL7mS-bw
AR15/M16/M4 chamber, note the large chamfer and generous radius leading into the chamber.

[ForTehNguyen]

and yet USMC adopted the pmags

[26 Inf]

Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that and have the earliest mags in hand. I wanted to see what a guy using a word like "deformed" would say about it. ;)

Sorry, I have to admit I was surprised you asked.

[pag23]

I have mostly Pmags...mainly I liked the OD green ones to match my AR Magpul add on....lol

Seriously i have Magpul Gen 2s DH from PSA and BCM and i just got a bunch of Lancers....for me variety is the key

[Iraqgunz]

The newer USGI magazine with the shit tan follower uses a unique spring. It is not the same as the standard spring or one found in a Magpul magazine. If the spring was to wear, you would need to find the correct spring (not sure if they are available).

Other than that you would need to get a new follower and spring.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/iraqgunz/IMG_20170110_022751460_zpsscxgazbz.jpg (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/iraqgunz/media/IMG_20170110_022751460_zpsscxgazbz.jpg.html)

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/iraqgunz/IMG_20170110_022540026_zpsz3r4hse6.jpg (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/iraqgunz/media/IMG_20170110_022540026_zpsz3r4hse6.jpg.html)


IG,
I think you were asking Lysander your question, but the mags I pulled the tan followers from were pretty old, at least well worn on the exterior and spring. I didn't note if the springs were different but the follower secured the same.
Is the new proprietary spring only in mags issued to military?


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[recon]

So then the mags in question with the tan follower/spring are no good?

[TMS951]

I bet this magazine is the tits. Okay mag with black teflon and factory installed magpul follower. 12.50$ w/ free shipping.

https://www.44mag.com/product/okay-industries-ar15-magazine-30-round-black-teflon/okay-industries

Edit: I purchased 10 out of interest. These are also cage coded and date coded. I will update when I get them. For almost twice what you can sometimes get the DH mags for I am interested to se if they are really twice as good, I doubt it but I do think they may have better quality assurance?

These came in today, side by side with the D&H Mag I can immediate differences. Most obvious are where the two half are welded together. The Okay mag has the aluminum of the body cut straight to run parallel with the other lines of the mag. The D&H has a curve making the spine have more material in one place than another.

Second is the bends on the sides of the two haves. The Okay mags have a tighter radius on the sides for a sharper edge. The corners on the D&H mags are much softer with a larger radius.

The D&H has always worked for me. The fit and finish of the Okay mags is much nicer. I want t compare these ten new mags to ten new D&H I have around somewhere and see what the differences look like in larger sample.

I may have a 10 pack from BCM here and one from PSA. I will compare the difference in those two D&H mags at the same time.

[Iraqgunz]

All counts from the MIL guys are that they are good. But, one has to know that should you be one of those who obsesses about rebuilding and hoarding mags, you need to know the limitations.


So then the mags in question with the tan follower/spring are no good?

[sinlessorrow]

All counts from the MIL guys are that they are good. But, one has to know that should you be one of those who obsesses about rebuilding and hoarding mags, you need to know the limitations.

The performance of the new EPMs are supposed to be very impressive.

[ScottsBad]

I have more USGI mags put away than PMAGs. I think the best USGI mags I've used are the NHMTG (which are Okay mags), and I have a bunch of D&H. I keep the USGI mags in virgin condition. The mags I use most often now are the Lancer mags which I like, but are my beater mags.

[Iraqgunz]

That's not an EPM unless my terminology is messed up.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/16/first-look-new-us-army-enhanced-performance-magazine-for-m4a1/


The performance of the new EPMs are supposed to be very impressive.

[sinlessorrow]

That's not an EPM unless my terminology is messed up.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/16/first-look-new-us-army-enhanced-performance-magazine-for-m4a1/

Sorry, I was meaning compared to the tan follower mags the EPMS AR supposed to be a major improvement from the studies I've seen.

I haven't had a chance to actually personally test any myself though.

[lysander]

The EPM is a specific solution to a specific problem 99.9% of the civilian shooting world will never have to deal with, unless large quantities of M855A1 ammunition become available.

The lip geometry, as I understand it, keeps the point of the steel penetrator off the feed ramps, and centers the point more to prevent the tip from contacting the chamber chamfer.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/l79XxSo.png
The orange is the original geometry, grey the EPM geometry.

[lysander]

The image on the left is after a few thousand rounds of M855A1 with a standard tan-follower magazine. On the right is after a few thousand rounds of M855A1 with the EPM. Note the improvement on the feed ramps.

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg538/lysanderx/Untitled_zpsmszshvm9.png

[sinlessorrow]

The image on the left is after a few thousand rounds of M855A1 with a standard tan-follower magazine. On the right is after a few thousand rounds of M855A1 with the EPM. Note the improvement on the feed ramps.

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg538/lysanderx/Untitled_zpsmszshvm9.png

That's a significant difference. The right looks pretty much like any other round.

[3ACR_Scout]

Most of my USGI mags have ranger plates so I cannot always see the manufacturer.
Look for the cage code stamped on the side of the metal magazine body (sometimes on the inside in older pre-ban/1994 magazines). That's how you can tell the manufacturer:

33710: Okay/NHMTG/Colt
6P199: Center Industries
12238: Brownells
431U5: Noveske (I think)

As far as I know, the lack of a cage code is an indicator that the magazine isn't a true USGI, in that it likely was never produced under military contract.

If you want to read more than you ever wanted to know about USGI magazines, take a look at this monster thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?81074-Move-back-to-GI-magazines-a-journey

I'd read the first couple pages but then skip to the end and read backwards to see the most recent comments about different brands.

One advantage of PMAGs that seems to have come out of Magpul's extensive testing is that even when their feed lips start to crack, the magazines will continue to feed reliably, to the point that they didn't realize some of them were cracked in testing until they were inspected later.

A question about Brownells magazines: I have one that I bought at a show, and it was sealed in the plain plastic wrapper with white GI bar code label, just like other new Army-issue tan-follower magazines I've seen. Is that how they come from Brownells? Just wondering if the ones I've seen at shows are the same, or were excess off a government order or something. I replaced the tan follower and spring in mine with a Magpul follower and extra "standard" spring. The tan follower functioned fine, but I wanted to standardize it. FWIW, Brownells also lists their magazine with Magpul follower (http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/ar-15-m16-30rd-223-5-56-magazine-with-magpul-follower-prod24307.aspx).

[RobertTheTexan]

Look for the cage code stamped on the side of the metal magazine body (sometimes on the inside in older pre-ban/1994 magazines). That's how you can tell the manufacturer:

33710: Okay/NHMTG/Colt
6P199: Center Industries
12238: Brownells
431U5: Noveske (I think)

As far as I know, the lack of a cage code is an indicator that the magazine isn't a true USGI, in that it likely was never produced under military contract.

If you want to read more than you ever wanted to know about USGI magazines, take a look at this monster thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?81074-Move-back-to-GI-magazines-a-journey

I'd read the first couple pages but then skip to the end and read backwards to see the most recent comments about different brands.

One advantage of PMAGs that seems to have come out of Magpul's extensive testing is that even when their feed lips start to crack, the magazines will continue to feed reliably, to the point that they didn't realize some of them were cracked in testing until they were inspected later.

A question about Brownells magazines: I have one that I bought at a show, and it was sealed in the plain plastic wrapper with white GI bar code label, just like other new Army-issue tan-follower magazines I've seen. Is that how they come from Brownells? Just wondering if the ones I've seen at shows are the same, or were excess off a government order or something. I replaced the tan follower and spring in mine with a Magpul follower and extra "standard" spring. The tan follower functioned fine, but I wanted to standardize it. FWIW, Brownells also lists their magazine with Magpul follower (http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/ar-15-m16-30rd-223-5-56-magazine-with-magpul-follower-prod24307.aspx).

This is a ton of good info.I will definitely read up on the links. Some of my really old mags that have slipped through the crack have worn springs and crappy black followers. The mags are WORN the outside finish is all but worn off. It's only a few so I just use them for my mag release check when I'm building a lower. Thanks again for the links and info.
I'll need to check when I get home. My Brownell's have bright yellow followers. They are AT I'm fairly certain, but fugly and rather bright. All my newer Brownell's and DSG Mags have the gray Magpul followers and I prefer them if I have a choice. Most of the mags I have that could use a rebuild just get remarked as a training mag. Might be worthwhile thought to rebuild a couple. They are metal and although won't. Still functional. Thanks brother for that good Intel.
BR


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[sinlessorrow]

I don't care about the data but the usgi mags I had in Iraq were crap. Would get miss feeds and everything. A month into my 12 month deployment I had family send me gen 2 pmags and I didn't have anymore miss feeds. So the usgi mags can last longer all they want but I would rather have a mag that feeds every round till its time to shit can them


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How old were those mags? Did you open them fresh out of the wrapper? Or had they already been through 10 deployments and 40,000 rounds?

Once Pmags get in the system and have seen 10+ deployments without any maintenance we'll look back and say "man Pmags suck ass, I with we had new GI mags"

[Averageman]

How old were those mags? Did you open them fresh out of the wrapper? Or had they already been through 10 deployments and 40,000 rounds?

Once Pmags get in the system and have seen 10+ deployments without any maintenance we'll look back and say "man Pmags suck ass, I with we had new GI mags"

Very valid point.
A lot of USGI Mags were beat to crap with all of the worst PM and best of intentions. How many people were bashing the living crap out of feed lips using stripper clips and a table or worse?

[lysander]

My second deployment we got issued brand new colt m4 and brand new mags. Everyone got 7 mags for the deployment and we had extras at the company talk for replacements and lost mags. So to answer the question they were brand new and after 2 weeks all ammo was unloaded from them and mags were taken apart and cleaned and new clp added and springs stretched back out. They proved to have the same issues as the mags that were old and beat up on my first deployment. Pmags well gen 2 pmags were very reliable might of had one or two miss feeds the remainder of the deployment


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Well there you go...if the spring were compressed after 2 weeks you got a bad batch of springs.

Stretching out springs, just make matters worse. If a spring becomes shorter, it means the material has been bent into the yield range and was not of the proper temper. Bending it back to its original shape does not change the temper, but just adds another bit of fatigue to the material, further shortening its life. And, stretching a otherwise good spring doesn't do it any good either.

If a spring becomes short, it should be replaced.

[Zirk208]

Well there you go...if the spring were compressed after 2 weeks you got a bad batch of springs.

Stretching out springs, just make matters worse. If a spring becomes shorter, it means the material has been bent into the yield range and was not of the proper temper. Bending it back to its original shape does not change the temper, but just adds another bit of fatigue to the material, further shortening its life. And, stretching a otherwise good spring doesn't do it any good either.

If a spring becomes short, it should be replaced.

Is it possible that stretching springs is a hold over from the likes of, "...because that's the way we've always done it."?

[Ryno12]

...and mags were taken apart... and springs stretched back out.



Stretching out springs, just make matters worse.

Yeah, I had a WTF moment when I read that.

[lysander]

Is it possible that stretching springs is a hold over from the likes of, "...because that's the way we've always done it."?

I have found that some people in the Army/Marine Corps "know" more that the engineers that wrote the manuals. It is sometimes the source of some of the worst misinformation out there.

If you have ever loaded an M3 Greasegun magazine you know how big of a pain in the ass it is. Once at a range for some testing, some guys were struggling to load a bunch when a salty Marine came over and said he knew how to make it easier. To the engineer's horror he picked up a brand new (yes, they had a brand new M3 magazine) and with a screwdriver stuck it between the feed lips and twisted it, opening up the lips at tad.

It loaded easier, but jammed every second round. None of the unmolested magazines gave any problem...

USGI stuff a lot of the time is "the worst" because of the US GI.

[MegademiC]

All the talk of tdp... what kind of qc are mags required to go through?

And another "if the springs compressed, something was wrong".

There's always a possibility they dot damaged in transit as well, correct? Or were they old mags (antiquated followers).

[Averageman]

I've had magazines compressed for years without issue.
Agreed a test batch of 'One", but I'm certainly not the only one. I believe Cooper wrote about a 1911 magazine that was loaded for thirty years operating flawlessly.

[Dukr]

company talk


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When I was in the Army, we called it the "TOC".

DK

[JasonB1]

My second deployment we got issued brand new colt m4 and brand new mags. Everyone got 7 mags for the deployment and we had extras at the company talk for replacements and lost mags. So to answer the question they were brand new and after 2 weeks all ammo was unloaded from them and mags were taken apart and cleaned and new clp added and springs stretched back out. They proved to have the same issues as the mags that were old and beat up on my first deployment. Pmags well gen 2 pmags were very reliable might of had one or two miss feeds the remainder of the deployment


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What part of the magazine was clp on from the start that required adding more?

[sinlessorrow]

My second deployment we got issued brand new colt m4 and brand new mags. Everyone got 7 mags for the deployment and we had extras at the company talk for replacements and lost mags. So to answer the question they were brand new and after 2 weeks all ammo was unloaded from them and mags were taken apart and cleaned and new clp added and springs stretched back out. They proved to have the same issues as the mags that were old and beat up on my first deployment. Pmags well gen 2 pmags were very reliable might of had one or two miss feeds the remainder of the deployment


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I've never heard of lubricating and stretching springs in magazines.


The whole thing after cleaning so the steel don't rust. Mainly the butt plate that holds spring in


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GI mags are aluminum, even the floor plates.

[JasonB1]

The whole thing after cleaning so the steel don't rust. Mainly the butt plate that holds spring in


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What brand of magazine did you have that had a steel floor plate?

[RobertTheTexan]

.

If you have ever loaded an M3 Greasegun magazine you know how big of a pain in the ass it is.
Unfortunately or fortunately I was pretty familiar with the M3. Familiar enough to remember it felt like a boat anchor around my neck.



USGI stuff a lot of the time is "the worst" because of the US GI.
There is volumes of truth to this simple statement.
The day I screamed "Don't hit the F¥#¥>!¥<!! fuse on the HE round with a f$@£#%! Hammer!!!"
I knew then that I was dealing with a special segment of humanity. Hence my mostek exit from said redlegs as the earliest possible opportunity.



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[RobertTheTexan]

When I was in the Army, we called it the "TOC".

DK

Hoping it was that nasty autocorrect at work..


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[sinlessorrow]

Any ways here is a good read

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/26/us-army-introduces-new-enhanced-performance-magazine-for-m4m16-series-rifles/

And the marine corps adopted the gen 3 pmag

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/12/19/usmc-authorizes-gen-iii-pmag-for-m27/#comment-900184

Kinda odd how the army is using newly designed mags and the marines are switching too gen 3 pmags. There has got to be a problem as the older usgi mags are best

All that says is they are authorized for use.

The reason for the new EPM's is because M855A1 can strike the M4 feed ramp cuts in the upper, which is as you know aluminum.

This eventually wears a groove between the upper and the barrel feed ramps that cause nothing but stoppages. The new EPM is designed to make sure the M855A1 steel tip only strikes the steel barrel extension feed ramps.

Also the Marines have a unique issue no one else does because the M27 IAR doesn't have the normal 120 degree chamber on the chamber face, this causes unique issues with M855A1 not seen in the M16/M4/Mk18.

[3ACR_Scout]

All that says is they are authorized for use.
No, it's much bigger than that. The Marine Corps has directed that the M3 PMAG is the only magazine authorized for use in combat, and that the EPM has been relegated to training use only. I.e., the EPM is not authorized for use in combat by Marine Corps personnel because they are not confident in its reliability based on the testing that just concluded. As Duane from Magpul described in the MCT thread, it also allows Marines to procure the PMAG through the military supply system, something the Army is still not set up to do (easily).

[Straight Shooter]

I've had magazines compressed for years without issue.
Agreed a test batch of 'One", but I'm certainly not the only one. I believe Cooper wrote about a 1911 magazine that was loaded for thirty years operating flawlessly.

Ive shot one loaded A LOT longer than that..and other mags loaded for decades as well. My dad bought a S&W 3906 right when they came out, fired half a box of WWB, loaded both mags, and it sat in a drawer over twenty years before I finally took it out, emptied both mags, cleaned and lubed it, and reloaded them with better ammo. Ill say this about "stretching springs"...ANYBODY who does this is ignorant, no matter WHO told you to do it, the springs, sorry or not to begin with I don't know, were made WORSE by stretching them, and I would NEVER allow it were I in charge, nor would I EVER carry said mags. It is simply not true that well made, correctly made mags "go bad" after being loaded for long periods of time.

[Straight Shooter]

FWIW- I TOO had Nam era shit whilst in the USMC in early eighties. But that aside..IM TELLING you..ask ANYBODY ON THIS BOARD who is a gunsmith..when you stretch a spring, you have f-ed it up and it is in WORSE condition than before, even if the spring was "worn out"...its NOW worn out AND metalurgically speaking..F'ed-UP. REPEATED COMPRESSION..many many load/unload cycles, is what will "wear out " springs...NOT loading them to capacity and leaving them set. Sounds to me like yall made bad mags WORSE.

[3ACR_Scout]

3acr scout were you in Iraq 03-04 I was attached to you guys for like 4 months. Is 3rd acr gone. You guys athurized my company to wear the Stetson and spurs
I wasn't on that deployment - I left in '02 and came back in '04, then deployed with the Regiment from '05 - '06 and '08 - '09. 3d ACR moved to Fort Hood in '06 and then eventually converted to a Stryker brigade in '11. They dropped the "Armored" from the name, so it's now the 3d Cavalry Regiment (like back in the 1800s!). I remember people talking about the MPs and all the other units that were attached out in Anbar. Thanks for helping out all those buddies of mine!

As far as the mag springs go, everyone was told the same bad advice over the years, and you did what you had to to get a few more cycles out of the magazines (and I'm a mechanical engineer, so I should have known better!). I ended up ordering +10% Wolff springs for my mags when I deployed in '05 because I wasn't confident that they would function reliably. It wasn't til a few years later that units started issuing new mags as everyone deployed. I took PMAGs with me in '08 but still hadn't really used them on a regular basis and wasn't totally confident about "plastic magazines." The ODA that was partnered with us was using them exclusively and had nothing but good things to say about them, so I converted over and learned more about their benefits after that deployment.

[Iraqgunz]

I thought he was kidding at first....wow.


Well there you go...if the spring were compressed after 2 weeks you got a bad batch of springs.

Stretching out springs, just make matters worse. If a spring becomes shorter, it means the material has been bent into the yield range and was not of the proper temper. Bending it back to its original shape does not change the temper, but just adds another bit of fatigue to the material, further shortening its life. And, stretching a otherwise good spring doesn't do it any good either.

If a spring becomes short, it should be replaced.

[lysander]

Unfortunately or fortunately I was pretty familiar with the M3. Familiar enough to remember it felt like a boat anchor around my neck.


There is volumes of truth to this simple statement.
The day I screamed "Don't hit the F¥#¥>!¥<!! fuse on the HE round with a f$@£#%! Hammer!!!"
I knew then that I was dealing with a special segment of humanity. Hence my mostek exit from said redlegs as the earliest possible opportunity.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So you moved the the Armor Branch?

[rickgman]

USGI stuff a lot of the time is "the worst" because of the US GI.

Yep, some GI's can break an anvil with a rubber mallet.