Stovepipe Malfunction - G19

[Ironman8]

So, it's been a while since I've been able to shoot and finally got out to the range yesterday with my G19 that I carry daily. My carry G19 hasn't been shot in well over a year and basically just been carried with the same mags loaded up since then. Only thing done between the last firing and now is a detail strip and cleaning of the weapon. Previously, there has been ZERO malfunctions with the only modification to the weapon being an APEX FRE and Non-LCI SLB (due to brass to the face). Round count at a documented 1,325 rounds, up to yesterday.

At the range, I fired a mag-worth of my carry ammo with no problems through the same G19 mag that I've carried for years. Felt good about that. Then switched it up to my 124gr ball reloads for my drills that I planned out. For my practice session I decided to take some brand new (Glock brand) G17 mags for function testing because I plan to switch to them for my backup mags for carry. Most strings of fire were between 3 and 5 rounds each. Long story short, within 100rds I had 3 different stovepipes on 2 different G17 mags. This not only caused a stovepipe, but would dislodge the top round in the mag in the process (not sure if that's normal for a stovepipe).

Question(s)
Should I be looking at the mags as the culprit?
Or is it something with the gun that needs to be adressed?
OR is it my reloads? (I've shot over 2k documented reloads with the same recipe, sooo...)


TL/DR
Gen4 G19 with 1,325 malfunction-free rounds starts to stovepipe with the only change being some brand new Glock 17 mags being used. What should I be looking at as the culprit for my malfunctions?

Thanks fellas.

[Doc Safari]

Since no one else has offered a reply, I'll just do some thinking out loud.

If I'm not mistaken, Glocks do occasionally have function issues when a magazine made for a larger Glock is used in a smaller Glock of the same caliber, right? Threads I've read on the net seem to suggest that slamming the larger mag into a smaller version of the pistol might result in over-insertion of the mag. I'm not saying that's your problem, but it suggests an area of concern for using G17 mags in a G19. I Googled a number of threads on the issue of overinsertion with mags made for a larger Glock being used in a smaller one of the same caliber. Could just be an internet legend, I suppose.

It's odd the problem only occurred with the G17 magazines.

Here's what I would do if it were my gun:

Go to the range with the identical ammo and some actual Glock 19 magazines to see if the function is 100%. Fire as many rounds as you feel comfortable with before pronouncing the reliability acceptable. Then, and only then, re-test with the Glock 17 mags.

If only the G17 mags cause malfunctions again, you'll know that's the culprit. If the pistol malfs with its proper G19 mags and the same ammo, then it's probably the ammo. If it malfs with proper G19 mags, G17 mags, and different ammo, then there's probably something internal going on (like something happened during your detail strip).

My limited experience with reloading taught me that if a known recipe starts malfunctioning then there's a problem with the powder measure "wandering" or something. This actually happened to me and that's why I don't reload anymore.

[ST911]

Return your gun to factory specification, test fire with OEM mags for that model, using domestically produced new manufacture SAAMI spec ammo. Add one variable at a time until you reproduce the malfunction. Then, back one step to the last functional condition.

All bets are off with homeloads and aftermarket parts.

Your G19 should run fine with G17 mags.

[Wake27]

I've never heard of the reported issue with 17 mags in a 19. I've only done it a few times but haven't had issues. Keep us updated, I'd definitely check it with factory ammo first. Then mags you know are good. Those are the easiest variables to mess with before uninstalling/reinstalling stuff.


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[26 Inf]

This not only caused a stovepipe, but would dislodge the top round in the mag in the process (not sure if that's normal for a stovepipe).

Two questions:

When you say dislodge the top round in the mag do you mean the slide rail has picked it up to feed it, or that it was simply nose forward on the feedramp?

Terminology wise some folks call cases caught lengthwise in the ejection port stovepipes also, do you mean the case was upright in the ejection port?

[williejc]

Are apex parts being suspect here in the reference to after market parts?

[nml]

Extractor needs to be fit (although I find it was designed for gen4 g19). But need to verify tension on that first. Use your brass.

Also make sure you are not using the heavier extractor spring since you have nonLCI.

[PatrioticDisorder]

I doubt it's the extractor if it passes the extractor test (fire with 1 in chamber without the magazine inserted, verify over several rounds the brass is kicking out to the side and not falling down the mag well). My guess is your hand loads are simply under powered. How old is your Gen4? Does it have the original recoil spring assembly that was recalled (due to being a little too stiff)? Lots of people had stove pipes with the original recoil springs (circa 2011 made guns IIRC).

[ST911]

I doubt it's the extractor if it passes the extractor test (fire with 1 in chamber without the magazine inserted, verify over several rounds the brass is kicking out to the side and not falling down the mag well).

1911 test, of little value for most others.

[nml]

Exactly. You need to verify fitment with all kinds of brass. There's tolerance in the Glock slides themselves AND between models which is why I believe the Apex was designed for the G19. I don't consider the Apex like other aftermarket parts because it is actually trying to replicate the previous extraction system before Glock made it worse, but it is still not what came out of the factory so it's up to you to make sure it is doing its job.

I've mentioned a G17 Gen4 before; (circa 2010/2011) that stovepiped out of the box with the 336 ejector. At some point in time an Apex and 30274 found its way into the gun. It extracted properly, until I encountered an ammo batch with a number of smaller spec brass that had insufficient tension. Worse than stock at the point because of the geometry. Now I don't trust this gun with the stock extractor but the fitted Apex should pass the test of time ... we'll see. Since this is a gun that now functions I can finally see what the stock barrel is capable of with HST.

There was fresh shiny 19 in my last class with a challenged shooter. One of the new 4 letter serials. Ammo was weak ... the gun was choking like crazy. Instructor mentioned something about it not being a Glock problem just a shooter problem. I kept my mouth shut and avoided eye contact.

[Ironman8]

Here's what I would do if it were my gun:

Go to the range with the identical ammo and some actual Glock 19 magazines to see if the function is 100%. Fire as many rounds as you feel comfortable with before pronouncing the reliability acceptable. Then, and only then, re-test with the Glock 17 mags.

If only the G17 mags cause malfunctions again, you'll know that's the culprit. If the pistol malfs with its proper G19 mags and the same ammo, then it's probably the ammo. If it malfs with proper G19 mags, G17 mags, and different ammo, then there's probably something internal going on (like something happened during your detail strip).

Thanks Doc. This is exactly what I planned to do but thought I'd ask here first.



My limited experience with reloading taught me that if a known recipe starts malfunctioning then there's a problem with the powder measure "wandering" or something. This actually happened to me and that's why I don't reload anymore.

I really don't think the powder measure is having an effect here. These were new reloads that I did a week or so ago and was pretty meticulous on getting the powder throw right and checking it periodically. Every time I checked, I was within .1 grain.

[Ironman8]

Return your gun to factory specification, test fire with OEM mags for that model, using domestically produced new manufacture SAAMI spec ammo. Add one variable at a time until you reproduce the malfunction. Then, back one step to the last functional condition.

All bets are off with homeloads and aftermarket parts.

Your G19 should run fine with G17 mags.


Are apex parts being suspect here in the reference to after market parts?

Apex parts are a known quality part, but, while I don't think it's the problem, I will check that after I've verified that it's not a magazine issue.

[Ironman8]

I've never heard of the reported issue with 17 mags in a 19. I've only done it a few times but haven't had issues. Keep us updated, I'd definitely check it with factory ammo first. Then mags you know are good. Those are the easiest variables to mess with before uninstalling/reinstalling stuff.


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I really hope it's not an issue with 17 mags in a 19. I picked up more than a few mags over the last few years that I'd hate to have to dump because of something like that. I've never heard of that being an issue either though.

[Ironman8]

Two questions:

When you say dislodge the top round in the mag do you mean the slide rail has picked it up to feed it, or that it was simply nose forward on the feedramp?

Terminology wise some folks call cases caught lengthwise in the ejection port stovepipes also, do you mean the case was upright in the ejection port?

I actually had both types of malfunction (RE: spent case orientation). And yes, the top (live) round in the mag would be dislodged underneath the trapped (spent) casing in the ejection port.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure it was the last round in the mag each time this happened. Basically, the 2nd to last round fired, weapon cycled but stovepiped, and in the process dislodged the last round below. I remember this because I wasn't able to do a tap/rack to clear the malfunction due to being at slide lock when the last round was dislodged and loose in the ejection port underneath the spent casing.

Any thoughts there?

[Ironman8]

I doubt it's the extractor if it passes the extractor test (fire with 1 in chamber without the magazine inserted, verify over several rounds the brass is kicking out to the side and not falling down the mag well). My guess is your hand loads are simply under powered. How old is your Gen4? Does it have the original recoil spring assembly that was recalled (due to being a little too stiff)? Lots of people had stove pipes with the original recoil springs (circa 2011 made guns IIRC).

I believe I got this Gen4 G19 in April of 2012. I also believe that all the springs and ejectors, ect. are the current part numbers.

[Straight Shooter]

I never had any issue using G17 mags in my G19. Run G17's with +2 extenders, ETS 22 & 31 rounders, G18 33rounders..ect.
All have been 100%.

[nml]

If they were old beat up mags or off brand I would look at them, but being new Glock mags I don't think you'll get that lucky. G18 mags get run alllllll the time. April 2012 is definitely the latest ejector (last change I know of to gen4 9mm platform, outside of the frame molds).

As far as round dislodged etc sounds normal to me with a FTE. Slide is coming for and starts to chamber round but FTE stops it... IMO three things are possibly happening:
1 either the extractor is loosing tension on the case and without the magazine tension (less support from an empty/almost empty mag than a full one) the case is hitting the ejector suboptimal
2 the slide velocity is too slow
3 the extractor has too much tension (different than fitment) and without the magazine tension helping to force it up, the hit on the ejector is not enough based on slide velocity

3 is less likely

[sierra 223]

I havent fired a huge amount thru my G19 with G17. But never had a problem or seen other guys have issue with it either.

I would suspect your reloads first.

[williejc]

This step already may have been suggested. To me the easiest way is trying commercial practice ammo through the 17 mags and see the results. No malfunctions would point the reloads. Unless the o.p.'s past success has been with a large batch loaded at the same time and unless this same batch was used with the 17 mags, then he can not feel as confident about the ammo. Being loaded later at a different time introduces possible variables such as mixed brass with multiple loadings, die settings having changed because of vibration or being removed and reinstalled, powder measure setting having changed, or different bullet even though charge is the same.

[Mysteryman]

Since no one else has offered a reply, I'll just do some thinking out loud.

If I'm not mistaken, Glocks do occasionally have function issues when a magazine made for a larger Glock is used in a smaller Glock of the same caliber, right? Threads I've read on the net seem to suggest that slamming the larger mag into a smaller version of the pistol might result in over-insertion of the mag. I'm not saying that's your problem, but it suggests an area of concern for using G17 mags in a G19. I Googled a number of threads on the issue of overinsertion with mags made for a larger Glock being used in a smaller one of the same caliber. Could just be an internet legend, I suppose.

It's odd the problem only occurred with the G17 magazines.

Here's what I would do if it were my gun:

Go to the range with the identical ammo and some actual Glock 19 magazines to see if the function is 100%. Fire as many rounds as you feel comfortable with before pronouncing the reliability acceptable. Then, and only then, re-test with the Glock 17 mags.

If only the G17 mags cause malfunctions again, you'll know that's the culprit. If the pistol malfs with its proper G19 mags and the same ammo, then it's probably the ammo. If it malfs with proper G19 mags, G17 mags, and different ammo, then there's probably something internal going on (like something happened during your detail strip).

My limited experience with reloading taught me that if a known recipe starts malfunctioning then there's a problem with the powder measure "wandering" or something. This actually happened to me and that's why I don't reload anymore.

Over insertion is a myth....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZiNNyVh9G4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXohG9HfR1M

MM

[Ironman8]

Over insertion is a myth....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZiNNyVh9G4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXohG9HfR1M

MM

Thanks for the links. Clears at least one possible "problem".

[bubba04]

I never had any issue using G17 mags in my G19. Run G17's with +2 extenders, ETS 22 rounders.
All have been 100%.

My experience. I fact the only time I actually use a 19 mag is while carrying, otherwise all shootingnisndoen with a g17 mag.

[Ironman8]

So here's a quick update...

Bought some Speer Lawman 124gr. for testing and brought 75 rounds along with an additional 75 of my same 124gr. reloads to test with the same (3) OEM G17 mags. I marked the two mags that I got stovepipes with in the last outing so that I could track what happened to the individual mags.

In the 150 rounds fired, I had one stovepipe with my reloads on one of the marked G17 mags......aaaannd one additional stovepipe with the Speer Lawman...on the UN-marked G17 mag. So, wtf?

Thought Process
At this point, I'm not sure that it's the ammo. I will admit that I probably don't load to full power when compared to the Speer Lawman, but now I've had stovepipes with both...although at a lower rate (2 out of 150 vs. 3 out of 100 in the first outing).

Is it the gun/extractor? Well it's stock except for the Apex extractor, which should be a known quality part. Plus I've had 377 documented trouble-free rounds through this gun with the Apex extractor (before having these problems when testing the G17 mags)...not to mention the 2,632 documented rounds on my identical backup/higher volume practice G19.

Is it the mags? Well they're OEM. Do the springs need any break-in time? Probably a silly question, but they are the newest gen mags from what I can tell and don't know why they wouldn't function otherwise.

Next step I guess is to try OEM G19 mags in the primary G19...then try other G17 mags (other OEM and/or PMAGS) in the primary G19...then possibly the problem G17 mags with my backup G19...then with G19 mags...this could take a bunch of ammo...but I need the practice anyway....thoughts?

[kantstudien]

I have had problems with the Apex extractor in some of my Gen 3 Glocks. The problems don't show up until the gun gets a little dirty. Switched back to a factory new extractor.

You might try installing a new factory Glock Gen 4 extractor once you rule out mags and ammo.

[MSparks909]

YMMV but it took an Apex FRE, a White Sound HRED and the factory 30274 ejector to get my recent production G19 G4 to run correctly. Ejection was piss poor with high quality factory ammunition. Few stovepipes with WWB 115 too.