View Full Version : The GOP is a special kind of stupid... (Basically an abortion thread)
Digital_Damage
01-06-17, 13:11
They had the needed votes on repeal/replace, then they injected the defunding of Planned Parenthood. Now they don't have the needed votes. When the F are they going to learn... don't **** around with women and Planned Parenthood.
Seriously WTF is wrong with them, they can't even get shit done when they have the majority in both houses and will soon have the Whitehouse.
Dist. Expert 26
01-06-17, 13:34
See, they don't actually want to rock the boat. They want to give the appearance of trying to do what their constituents voted them into office to do while maintaining the status quo and getting rich.
See, they don't actually want to rock the boat. They want to give the appearance of trying to do what their constituents voted them into office to do while maintaining the status quo and getting rich.
This. It's a racket. They don't care about anything productive.
The only people who care about abortions are god-botherers who have opinions but no solutions.
Most girls getting abortions are stupid, spoiled sluts.
People will wave signs of mutilated fetuses but wont actually offer to adopt/shelter/care.
And if two queers with money and a house want to adopt well.....EFF THAT, they say.
I outgrew being a Republican at like age 20.
Honestly in some cases more abortion may actually prevent crime. I been to enough hoodbitches who dumped litters of shit they can't/won't provide for and if most were vacuumed out when there was a chance they wouldn't have robbed/killed/assaulted someone.
Cry me a river
Dist. Expert 26
01-06-17, 13:53
Firefly, we need to have a beer someday.
I routinely get into arguments with religious friends and family regarding abortion. I think it's an awful decision to have to make, but we need population control of some sort and we certainly don't need more children without caring parents.
More to the point, it's none of the government's business. Stop trying to legislate morality. Worry about real issues like taxes, energy, national debt, etc.
Doc Safari
01-06-17, 14:01
See, they don't actually want to rock the boat. They want to give the appearance of trying to do what their constituents voted them into office to do while maintaining the status quo and getting rich.
PRETTY.MUCH.IT.
Averageman
01-06-17, 14:03
Firefly, we need to have a beer someday.
I routinely get into arguments with religious friends and family regarding abortion. I think it's an awful decision to have to make, but we need population control of some sort and we certainly don't need more children without caring parents.
More to the point, it's none of the government's business. Stop trying to legislate morality. Worry about real issues like taxes, energy, national debt, etc.
I have to agree with you.
Unless we keep abortion available, we have to all be willing to accept some things that might be a lot worse than people making personal decisions for themselves and accepting all of the ramification for their own actions. Like botched home spun abortions becoming the new norm, a very rapid increase in unadoptable special needs children being taken care of by the State and I honestly believe and increase in crime.
I don't like abortion, but I understand the need for it. Everyone who demands an end to abortion and doesn't have two or three children that they have adopted from the system, well, I can't take them seriously.
This vote was a sham;
I'm almost willing to bet the people who will profit from Obama care have a hand in lining a few pockets to make this work out for them. Republicans can be some vile, angry, greedy SOB's and this is a fine example of just that.
Take one small bite at a time, no need to spike that ball in the end zone, and get the job you promised you would done, but that aint happening.
Just euthanize the host and get a 2 for 1.
Dist. Expert 26
01-06-17, 14:16
Just euthanize the host and get a 2 for 1.
I can't really get behind this.
Sometimes abortion is the best option, not because the mother is a POS, but because there's something wrong with the fetus that will lead to a lifetime of suffering if it is born.
Opinions may vary, but I personally find it cruel to bring a human being into the world that is disadvantaged from the start.
Averageman
01-06-17, 14:21
I can't really get behind this.
Sometimes abortion is the best option, not because the mother is a POS, but because there's something wrong with the fetus that will lead to a lifetime of suffering if it is born.
Opinions may vary, but I personally find it cruel to bring a human being into the world that is disadvantaged from the start.
It's a very difficult and personal choice, but that choice has to be available to prevent these things you mention.
At 55 I can't imagine being responsible for bringing a life in to this world that would be torment and despair and knowing long after I am gone that child would continue to suffer and do so without my help and love.
Again, I think the republicans want the issue to stir up their base, but don't actually want to resolve the abortion issue. To me this is like the dems starting with an assault weapon ban and then watering it down to a mag ban, and then watering it down to universal back ground checks. By starting with the most anti position, they satisfy their base. This gets them votes, funds, and coverage. The challenge they have learned is that it also riles up the pro gun folks. The GOP has abortion, the Dems have guns. Both use it to their own political benefit.
This. It's a racket. They don't care about anything productive.
The only people who care about abortions are god-botherers who have opinions but no solutions.
Most girls getting abortions are stupid, spoiled sluts.
People will wave signs of mutilated fetuses but wont actually offer to adopt/shelter/care.
And if two queers with money and a house want to adopt well.....EFF THAT, they say.
I outgrew being a Republican at like age 20.
Honestly in some cases more abortion may actually prevent crime. I been to enough hoodbitches who dumped litters of shit they can't/won't provide for and if most were vacuumed out when there was a chance they wouldn't have robbed/killed/assaulted someone.
Cry me a river
Just euthanize the host and get 2 for 1.
Abortion threads on a gun forum always elicit some interesting perspectives...good times, good times.
Sometimes abortion is the best option, not because the mother is a POS, but because there's something wrong with the fetus that will lead to a lifetime of suffering if it is born.
Opinions may vary, but I personally find it cruel to bring a human being into the world that is disadvantaged from the start.
What do you think that percentage is? I'm guessing less than 5%
What you're talking about sounds a lot like eugenics.
Abortion threads on a gun forum always elicit some interesting perspectives...good times, good times.
I should've used the sarcasm emoticon dealie. I wasn't being serious.
Like this... If we're talking disadvantaged let's take preemptive measures and start wiping out ghettos now to rid ourselves of the hosts. :rolleyes:
They had the needed votes on repeal/replace, then they injected the defunding of Planned Parenthood. Now they don't have the needed votes. When the F are they going to learn... don't **** around with women and Planned Parenthood.
Seriously WTF is wrong with them, they can't even get shit done when they have the majority in both houses and will soon have the Whitehouse.
They injected the PP stupidity BECAUSE they had the needed votes. They DONT want to own the decision to dismantle osamacare. If they own the dismantling of it they will have to own its replacement.
Just euthanize the host and get a 2 for 1.
I should've used the sarcasm emoticon dealie. I wasn't being serious.
Like this... If we're talking disadvantaged let's take preemptive measures and start wiping out ghettos now to rid ourselves of the hosts. :rolleyes:
I knew you were being sarcastic. Good to hear from you. Enjoy the snowpocalypse.
Dist. Expert 26
01-06-17, 14:39
What do you think that percentage is? I'm guessing less than 5%
What you're talking about sounds a lot like eugenics.
I have no idea about statistics. It's not something I'm even remotely passionate about.
Kinda figured that one was coming. I stand by what I said. It's cruel to bring someone into the world that will need constant care, even after you die.
I didn't advocate for using abortion as a means to shape our genetic makeup.
EDIT- Missed the sarcasm. I thought you were serious.
I have to agree with you.
Unless we keep abortion available, we have to all be willing to accept some things that might be a lot worse than people making personal decisions for themselves and accepting all of the ramification for their own actions. Like botched home spun abortions becoming the new norm, a very rapid increase in unadoptable special needs children being taken care of by the State and I honestly believe and increase in crime.
I don't like abortion, but I understand the need for it. Everyone who demands an end to abortion and doesn't have two or three children that they have adopted from the system, well, I can't take them seriously.
This sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well.
That being said I don't think this was used to kill it. There are enough elected officials that really are that out of touch with the country today that they think this would work.
Abortion threads on a gun forum always elicit some interesting perspectives...good times, good times.
He isn't wrong though. Maybe not in all cases. But the flat out mania that crops up around the topic is a bit scary. Living where I do I have seen first hand the damage that mania can cause. Closing down health clinics that don't even offer abortion because they are funded by an entity that does. Protesting outside clinics and harassing women going there for normal medical needs. Telling women they should be willing to die to carry a baby. Killing Drs who perform abortions. The list goes on and on.
What do you think that percentage is? I'm guessing less than 5%
What you're talking about sounds a lot like eugenics.
The % are irrelevant. There are very valid reasons why abortions should be legally available to people.
If you don't like the idea of an abortion, don't have one, raise your kids so they don't need to have one. That's the absolute BEST way to control the use of the procedure. Take care of your and your loved ones based on your life philosophy and leave others to do the same. It's called freedom.
I knew you were being sarcastic. Good to hear from you. Enjoy the snowpocalypse.
You too! Teaching the 6 year old how to snowboard now and junior wrestling just started this past week. He loves the wrestling but it's going to take a little while to overcome his BJJ preprogramming.
The % are irrelevant. There are very valid reasons why abortions should be legally available to people.
...It's called freedom.
The percentages are irrelevant to you. I think it makes for interesting conversation. What do you consider those very valid reasons to be?
Freedom? I don't define freedom as having the legal means to snuff out the life of an unborn child.
Singlestack Wonder
01-06-17, 15:58
The percentages are irrelevant to you. I think it makes for interesting conversation. What do you consider those very valid reasons to be?
Freedom? I don't define freedom as having the legal means to snuff out the life of an unborn child.
+10.....
This. It's a racket. They don't care about anything productive.
The only people who care about abortions are god-botherers who have opinions but no solutions.
Most girls getting abortions are stupid, spoiled sluts.
People will wave signs of mutilated fetuses but wont actually offer to adopt/shelter/care.
And if two queers with money and a house want to adopt well.....EFF THAT, they say.
I outgrew being a Republican at like age 20.
Honestly in some cases more abortion may actually prevent crime. I been to enough hoodbitches who dumped litters of shit they can't/won't provide for and if most were vacuumed out when there was a chance they wouldn't have robbed/killed/assaulted someone.
Cry me a river
Dead babies reduce crime......swell. If this post is directed at the "god-botherers", whatever that means, here.......? There is absolutely ZERO wisdom or truth in this post.
The percentages are irrelevant to you. I think it makes for interesting conversation. What do you consider those very valid reasons to be?
Freedom? I don't define freedom as having the legal means to snuff out the life of an unborn child.
I think for many people there are two questions related to this.
1st is this: How do we tell someone what they can and can not do with their body. Yes I understand the baby... But where is the line drawn? What about Organ donation. Say I am the only match for someone who needs a kidney. Can I then be forced to save that persons life? Not saying it would go that far but it ties together.
2: When does a fetus become an unborn child? We don't really know at this point. Early stages of a fetus are indistinguishable from the fetus of other animals. To the point where some commonly used anti abortion images are actually cats and other animals and the creators didn't even realize it. This is why I say it is not a black and white issue. Is it a human life the moment of conception? At that point it is just a clump of cells. Is it a human life right before birth?? Of course it is.
But at what point between there do we draw that line?
I don't have the answers..
Just another internet discussion on just another social issue. Lighten up please.
I think for many people there are two questions related to this.
1st is this: How do we tell someone what they can and can not do with their body. Yes I understand the baby... But where is the line drawn? What about Organ donation. Say I am the only match for someone who needs a kidney. Can I then be forced to save that persons life? Not saying it would go that far but it ties together.
2: When does a fetus become an unborn child? We don't really know at this point. Early stages of a fetus are indistinguishable from the fetus of other animals. To the point where some commonly used anti abortion images are actually cats and other animals and the creators didn't even realize it. This is why I say it is not a black and white issue. Is it a human life the moment of conception? At that point it is just a clump of cells. Is it a human life right before birth?? Of course it is.
But at what point between there do we draw that line?
I don't have the answers..
If you really wanted to know the answers to these questions, then the answers are there. But then the answers don't lie within you. If you seek, you will find, if you seek with all your heart.
Averageman
01-06-17, 16:23
The percentages are irrelevant to you. I think it makes for interesting conversation. What do you consider those very valid reasons to be?
Freedom? I don't define freedom as having the legal means to snuff out the life of an unborn child.
Dead babies reduce crime......swell. If this post is directed at the "god-botherers", whatever that means, here.......? There is absolutely ZERO wisdom or truth in this post.
So tying this to the end Obama-Care and in essence assuring that we wouldn't end Obama-Care was a smart move?
You have an answer for ending Roe vs Wade and have an assurance that your answer will pas the muster of the SCOTUS?
Understanding that tying anything to the end of Roe vs Wade assures that, that legislation will never pass, but that's okay by you?
Your morale choices should be set in stone and the rules everyone else not should, but legally has to obey?
It may not be nice, you may not like it, but it simply is the Law. At this point nothing legislative that is tied to abortion is going to pass the House and Senate, that, at this point is clearly a fact.
If you want to tie the hands of your legislatures and demand the end of Roe vs Wade, then fine, let it stand or fall on its own merits and leave it as a rider off of all further Legislation or it will doom us to any substantive gains as Conservatives.
Pipe dreams.
If you really wanted to know the answers to these questions, then the answers are there. But then the answers don't lie within you. If you seek, you will find, if you seek with all your heart.
Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, right or wrong, but they do have free will and the right to go to hell any way they choose to do so.
Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, right or wrong, but they do have free will and the right to go to hell any way they choose to do so.
I am more worried about Zeus' lighting bolts . :D
I am more worried about Zeus' lighting bolts . :D
You should worry about how utterly futile and wasted your life will seem at the end of it.
You should worry about how utterly futile and wasted your life will seem at the end of it.
A life lived is never wasted. My legacy is the impact i have on those around me. And that is what I worry about. Once I am gone I am gone. So I live for my life. Not some supposed reward afterwards. Even if I was a Christian I would live the same way.
I'm one of those middle of the road guys. I don't want to see abortion as a form of birth control. If it is a viable, healthy fetus I have trouble with killing it. I do believe that abortion procedures need to exist for medical emergencies.
My daughter, 17, is a pro-lifer. It gets her into all kinds of grief with the very liberal members of her HS volleyball team. I can't wrap my head around the craziness that infects some of these kids. One girl thinks it's perfectly o.k. to have an abortion as birth control, yet she is a vegan because she cannot fathom the idea of eating animal flesh "that is the same flesh that makes up my body" (direct quote by this girl to me), yet she's perfectly o.k. with sucking up a life form out of her body and ending it.
skywalkrNCSU
01-06-17, 16:57
Defunding PP will lead to harder to access birth control which would only increase the demand for abortions. I cannot see why anyone who is against abortion would be for that. Federal money is not being spent on abortion, those two parts of PP are separate and the segment of PP that gets federal funding uses it to provide a lot of healthcare for women where they might not have other options. It does not go to abortions.
I can completely get behind the argument that the government shouldn't be funding anything like this at all but that is not the reality we live in and we aren't going to be living in that reality anytime soon if at all. With all the government waste, providing affordable healthcare is pretty low on my outrage scale. Plus, I am more than willing to send more funding for making birth control more available as it would prevent more unwanted pregnancies from low income folks who take more than they give towards the government. It would likely save money. And let's face it, abstinence doesn't work so save me that argument.
Digital_Damage
01-06-17, 16:58
Back to the actual subject... they have the next two years to get what they need to get done.
They should not be picking loosing battles like Planned Parenthood, go get shit done like you were voted in to do.
So tying this to the end Obama-Care and in essence assuring that we wouldn't end Obama-Care was a smart move?
You have an answer for ending Roe vs Wade and have an assurance that your answer will pas the muster of the SCOTUS?
Understanding that tying anything to the end of Roe vs Wade assures that, that legislation will never pass, but that's okay by you?
Your morale choices should be set in stone and the rules everyone else not should, but legally has to obey?
It may not be nice, you may not like it, but it simply is the Law. At this point nothing legislative that is tied to abortion is going to pass the House and Senate, that, at this point is clearly a fact.
If you want to tie the hands of your legislatures and demand the end of Roe vs Wade, then fine, let it stand or fall on its own merits and leave it as a rider off of all further Legislation or it will doom us to any substantive gains as Conservatives.
Pipe dreams.
Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, right or wrong, but they do have free will and the right to go to hell any way they choose to do so.
I don't put any faith.........like less than ZERO in SCOTUS, the legislatures, the POTUS to do what's right. I consider most of them to be probable reprobates. The republicans always talk a mean game....repeal Obamacare, defund PP etc., but in the end can't pull it together to really make difference. There's always a few Republicans that JUST can not do the right thing. AS for SCOTUS, a truely conservative Congress could have reeled it in long ago.
You are right ... there is zero wisdom or truth in your post...
Back to the actual subject... they have the next two years to get what they need to get done.
They should not be picking loosing battles like Planned Parenthood, go get shit done like you were voted in to do.
Not giving my money to criminal baby butchers IS getting "shit" done.
While I stand by my post, let me articulate this in a more kinder, gentler and politically correct, non-triggering fashion:
Riders to clear cut legislation are trickery and hucksterism at best and outright poison pills at worst.
You can have an entire majority that will cede to the many rather than the whims of the few until someone decides to interject their personal pet peeve into it where nobody gets anything. The poison pillers get their satisfaction and the other underwriters get to shrig amd say "aw gee shucks, I tried" to their constituents with no repercussions.
You can not, nor should you, legislate morality in this nation.
Do you have to agree? No.
Is anyone asking you to like it? No.
The fact is that if citizens of majority want to take alternative and legal recourses in life, then so be it.
The Democrats have some of the most abhorrent, Communist political ideologies ever, but always win the social favor.
Why? Because they stay out of peoples' bedrooms, wombs, and medicine cabinets.
They will, for better or worse, at least semi-champion unpopular religious/non-religious practices.
I know enough, more than I care to honestly, about the female psyche.
Real Talk: Most women who do get abortions could take care of their child if they brought it to term with little to no government aid. They usually have better socio-economic standing. It literally is a form of birth control.
But it is legal.
The ones who seriously get irresponsible with their breeding typically do NOT seek or consider anortive measures because their pregnancies are incentivized.
But this is a tired circular spiel. It's watching the right hand.
Let's look at the left hand of the magician for a minute.
Women do not like being told what to do with their bodies
Fact. Fact. Fact.
Three times for emphasis.
Most women would and do accept their pregnancies. Abortions are overall not as widely used and have actually decreased since Roe v. Wade.
But it is an Option. Women just want an option. They want to see someone. see what is about, and most don't do it.
I got to work a protest because someone was afraid they were going to shoot a doctor. Anyways ...I challenge anyone with strong opinions on the matter to actually sit down with the medical professionals.
On a smoke and joke "break" I actually talked, without judgment, to one of the staff. She said that the woman can stop at any time. Some will drive two hours each way. Go through it all. Go to the prep room and call it. No pressure. They get treated with dignity. They can stop at any time. Some just want to hear a second opinion. They are advised of all recourses.
It's like older people who buy The Last Exit. They may not be really suicidal but they just want to know more.
A lot of emotion gets tossed around.
I say we all monitor our own crops before criticizing those of our neighbors.
Because everytime we champion these low stakes, moral majority causes.....we lose. We get nothing. But gosh darn it at least we got to be loud and proud
Because all these people hear is "paunchy white guys say you can"t do X Y or Z because you're a girl. NO GIRLS ALLOWED"
And these people , mind you, vote.
It's like anything else....reverse psychology. Tell people no and they want it worse. Tell people go nuts and have at it....they get bored.
Most women have two big fantasies in life, a wedding and a baby. Human nature.
It isn't the act but the choice.
You dont like people saying what guns you can have or movies you can watch so why hassle women about their bodies?
It is such a non-issue
If the right would get over abortion and the left would get over gun control we'd have a much less idiotic country.
We need to do a little trade here. Abortions for Guns. Kill'em all.
Republicans shut up about abortions already. Don't want one? Great don't get one. What others do is none of your business.
Democrats shut up about guns already. Don't want one? Great don't get one. What others do is none of your business.
But as been mentioned, these are hot button issues used to cater to and draw lowest common denominator voters.
They had the needed votes on repeal/replace, then they injected the defunding of Planned Parenthood. Now they don't have the needed votes. When the F are they going to learn... don't **** around with women and Planned Parenthood.
Seriously WTF is wrong with them, they can't even get shit done when they have the majority in both houses and will soon have the Whitehouse.
It's like Democrats and guns, some people just can't figure it out.
Doc Safari
01-06-17, 17:15
I'm probably in the minority here, and although anyone is free to disagree with me understand that no matter what you post you will never ever change my mind.
I think abortion is infanticide no matter how early in the pregnancy it's performed.
I can see performing an abortion if the choice is to save the life of the mother, but even in cases of rape or incest I don't see killing an innocent baby just because it was conceived through ugly circumstances.
You may flame away now but I reiterate: you will never, ever change my mind.
I'm probably in the minority here, and although anyone is free to disagree with me understand that no matter what you post you will never ever change my mind.
I think abortion is infanticide no matter how early in the pregnancy it's performed.
I can see performing an abortion if the choice is to save the life of the mother, but even in cases of rape or incest I don't see killing an innocent baby just because it was conceived through ugly circumstances.
You may flame away now but I reiterate: you will never, ever change my mind.
See there is nothing wrong with that view. My issue comes when those view are taken to the extreme and put into actions against other people. I don't see you out there Firebombing clinics or throwing fake blood on women trying to go in for a checkup.
Reasonable people can disagree, have a conversation or debate, and then have a beer and talk about women and guns.
Unreasonable people never let up and try to make everyone agree with them at all cost.
A moderator asked once already for the two or three high strung guys to cool it. This is the second warning .... knock it off or this thread is done and all parties involved will get infractions.
I'm probably in the minority here, and although anyone is free to disagree with me understand that no matter what you post you will never ever change my mind.
I think abortion is infanticide no matter how early in the pregnancy it's performed.
I can see performing an abortion if the choice is to save the life of the mother, but even in cases of rape or incest I don't see killing an innocent baby just because it was conceived through ugly circumstances.
You may flame away now but I reiterate: you will never, ever change my mind.
And you will never change mine. If my wife or daughter were raped, NO WAY would I even think about forcing them to deal with it a day longer than necessary.
The big problem is people who use abortion as birth control because they are amazingly irresponsible. I know one girl who has had FOUR abortions, there is just no excuse for that. And she is exactly the kind of person you probably imagine she is. Different fathers in every case, habitually unemployed, arrest record and drug user in recovery for the umpteenth time.
Sure in some cases you could probably make the argument that she killed a baby, but if given the choice, I'd rather not exist than have her for a "mom." She would be one of those people who passes out in the front seat with a baby crying in the back seat. I wouldn't want her to be responsible for a cat let alone a person.
Republicans shut up about abortions already. Don't want one? Great don't get one. What others do is none of your business.
Democrats shut up about guns already. Don't want one? Great don't get one. What others do is none of your business.
This is my stance on it exactly.. Don't want anything to do with it then you don't have to. I'll never understand why people are so concerned about what other people are doing.
With that said I don't really agree with abortion however I understand there are certain instances where it may be the best choice at the time.
I think for many people there are two questions related to this.
1st is this: How do we tell someone what they can and can not do with their body. Yes I understand the baby... But where is the line drawn? What about Organ donation. Say I am the only match for someone who needs a kidney. Can I then be forced to save that persons life? Not saying it would go that far but it ties together.
2: When does a fetus become an unborn child? We don't really know at this point. Early stages of a fetus are indistinguishable from the fetus of other animals. To the point where some commonly used anti abortion images are actually cats and other animals and the creators didn't even realize it. This is why I say it is not a black and white issue. Is it a human life the moment of conception? At that point it is just a clump of cells. Is it a human life right before birth?? Of course it is.
But at what point between there do we draw that line?
I don't have the answers..
#1 I'm not 100% sure.
#2 Definitely not later than when a heartbeat can be detected, in my opinion. Really, we are all just clumps of cells. Some of us just have more than others.
el_chingoton13
01-06-17, 18:27
Don't really care one way or the other, but something I've always wondered when people bring up the rape argument is, is there not access to plan B? I'd imagine if you're raped maybe that'd be something to do.
Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
Don't really care one way or the other, but something I've always wondered when people bring up the rape argument is, is there not access to plan B? I'd imagine if you're raped maybe that'd be something to do.
Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
I think some folks consider even that to be abortion. Obviously, it would be the best first choice.
Don't really care one way or the other, but something I've always wondered when people bring up the rape argument is, is there not access to plan B? I'd imagine if you're raped maybe that'd be something to do.
Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
I believe abortions should be more strictly controlled. Reasons for abortions:
Rape - 0.3% That is less than one percent folks.
Incest - 0.03% That is three hundredths of a percent.
Life of Mother - 0.1%
Health of Mother - 0.8%
Fetal Health - 0.5%
Elective - 98.3%
According to a pretty exhaustive study between 87 to 99% of abortions are elective procedures. Primary reasons given for elective abortions were 1) Economic 25 to 40%; 2) Too young 32%; 3) Avoid adjusting life 16%; 4) Mother single or in poor relationship 12 to 13%.
As I said, I think it (abortion) should be more regulated and not used as a method of birth control.
ETA link: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
Dist. Expert 26
01-06-17, 20:36
And this is where we become hypocrites. The left can drum up statistics showing why we should have tighter gun control and we all dismiss it as propaganda.
I don't feel that I have the right to dictate the terms of anyone else's life. If you do, well great, but this is why we keep losing. If "conservatives" would mind their own business regarding abortion, marriage, etc. maybe we could actually pass meaningful legislation, like a balanced budget or tax reform.
And this is where we become hypocrites. The left can drum up statistics showing why we should have tighter gun control and we all dismiss it as propaganda.
I don't feel that I have the right to dictate the terms of anyone else's life. If you do, well great, but this is why we keep losing. If "conservatives" would mind their own business regarding abortion, marriage, etc. maybe we could actually pass meaningful legislation, like a balanced budget or tax reform.
Don't misunderstand, I'm stating my views. I think one of the problems that we have in the abortion debate are the extremists at both ends. We won't go anywhere with the subject as long as those extremists are driving the train.
Your statement 'I don't feel that I have the right to dictate the terms of anyone else's life' is true. The issue to me is that our Nation is built on this as 'WE' -
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
At some point that fetus is a person, to say it isn't until it is out of the womb does not make sense. This Christmas my 17 year-old daughter spent most of Christmas Eve holding one of her little cousins, almost 12 weeks premature, delivered by c-section. Sure the baby had spent a couple weeks in neo-natal ICU, but it was a little person at the time of it's birth, it was also a little person the moment before the surgeon made the initial incision.
We have the ability to say 'IDGAF' about children, and adults, starving to death all over the world because we don't have to look them in the face. That is a shame, and it lessens our humanity. Same is true regarding the abortion debate.
ramairthree
01-06-17, 22:27
There are understandable reasons I feel some people have for one.
As has been noted, that is in the minority.
My personal opinion on the matter does not hold any significance, but a life, potential life, and in some cases an individual that would live if delivered vs. aborted independent from the mother is ended.
If there is to be judging and punishment in an afterlife, it is not my lane.
From a pure, cold, pragmatic view, when all is said and done the majority of them are sought by those that suck at life and whose offspring would most likely suck at life as well, resulting in an overall ecrease to society's burden.
So basically,
I may have personal beliefs against them,
But do not feel it is my role in life to stop people from getting them.
I don't feel I should be responsible for funding the worldly lives of others,
And it's not up to me what happens to their soul.
The government can tax me and fund all kinds of crap I don't want.
Maybe we need a line item tax form so our taxes can only fund what we approve of,
And some laws limiting the government to spend what it has.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
First problem I can see is that both sperm and unfertilized eggs are both life forms by themselves. Every cell in your body is technically a life form.
The second problem I see is that the DOI refers to those rights as rights of men, not cellular life or the unborn. So we are back to when does a fertilized egg become a human being? Some believe that happens at conception, others hold the view that it doesn't happen until birth. The SCOTUS has decided it happens at some point in between.
While I stand by my post, let me articulate this in a more kinder, gentler and politically correct, non-triggering fashion:
Riders to clear cut legislation are trickery and hucksterism at best and outright poison pills at worst.
You can have an entire majority that will cede to the many rather than the whims of the few until someone decides to interject their personal pet peeve into it where nobody gets anything. The poison pillers get their satisfaction and the other underwriters get to shrig amd say "aw gee shucks, I tried" to their constituents with no repercussions.
You can not, nor should you, legislate morality in this nation.
Do you have to agree? No.
Is anyone asking you to like it? No.
The fact is that if citizens of majority want to take alternative and legal recourses in life, then so be it.
The Democrats have some of the most abhorrent, Communist political ideologies ever, but always win the social favor.
Why? Because they stay out of peoples' bedrooms, wombs, and medicine cabinets.
They will, for better or worse, at least semi-champion unpopular religious/non-religious practices.
I know enough, more than I care to honestly, about the female psyche.
Real Talk: Most women who do get abortions could take care of their child if they brought it to term with little to no government aid. They usually have better socio-economic standing. It literally is a form of birth control.
But it is legal.
The ones who seriously get irresponsible with their breeding typically do NOT seek or consider anortive measures because their pregnancies are incentivized.
But this is a tired circular spiel. It's watching the right hand.
Let's look at the left hand of the magician for a minute.
Women do not like being told what to do with their bodies
Fact. Fact. Fact.
Three times for emphasis.
Most women would and do accept their pregnancies. Abortions are overall not as widely used and have actually decreased since Roe v. Wade.
But it is an Option. Women just want an option. They want to see someone. see what is about, and most don't do it.
I got to work a protest because someone was afraid they were going to shoot a doctor. Anyways ...I challenge anyone with strong opinions on the matter to actually sit down with the medical professionals.
On a smoke and joke "break" I actually talked, without judgment, to one of the staff. She said that the woman can stop at any time. Some will drive two hours each way. Go through it all. Go to the prep room and call it. No pressure. They get treated with dignity. They can stop at any time. Some just want to hear a second opinion. They are advised of all recourses.
It's like older people who buy The Last Exit. They may not be really suicidal but they just want to know more.
A lot of emotion gets tossed around.
I say we all monitor our own crops before criticizing those of our neighbors.
Because everytime we champion these low stakes, moral majority causes.....we lose. We get nothing. But gosh darn it at least we got to be loud and proud
Because all these people hear is "paunchy white guys say you can"t do X Y or Z because you're a girl. NO GIRLS ALLOWED"
And these people , mind you, vote.
It's like anything else....reverse psychology. Tell people no and they want it worse. Tell people go nuts and have at it....they get bored.
Most women have two big fantasies in life, a wedding and a baby. Human nature.
It isn't the act but the choice.
You dont like people saying what guns you can have or movies you can watch so why hassle women about their bodies?
It is such a non-issue
If the right would get over abortion and the left would get over gun control we'd have a much less idiotic country.
The Republicans need to give it a rest already. Historically, telling people not to do something creates the opposite.
The Republicans need to give it a rest already. Historically, telling people not to do something creates the opposite.
This is the truth. At some point it simply becomes you are not going to tell me what to do. Cuts both ways.
I have very strong feelings about abortion, getting in folks face isn't going to change their views to mine.
If it were put to vote, I would abstain. Sadly I've come to the point that I don't care. I fully respect the belief of those who view abortion as murder.
Yes, people should not infringe on the right of others to kill the innocent
jerrysimons
01-07-17, 17:08
Many have missed the point here operating from a pro-abortion apologetic. I can tell you why I think abortion is wrong, maybe I will. I can also tell you how foolish the logic when asked: "when does human life start post-conception, pre-birth?" Answer: "IDK, IDGAF, lets error on the side of death, convenience and society reasons. If you don't like an abortion don't have one. Don't legislate morality"
First of all, a fundamental morality is legislated, e.g. murder, protection of rights and liberty. Unless you are going to advocate for anarchy, get over it. What we are arguing about is whether or not protection for pre-born life falls under this fundamental moral order to society that "we" are willing to enforce. "Don't legislate morality" is a deflection.
Secondly, abortion is not merely legal but I AM BEING FORCED TO FUND ABORTION THROUGH MY TAX DOLLARS! So "Don't like an abortion, don't have one" is another deflection of the issue we are actually talking about and pertains directly to the op. This is why the Federal and State government defunding of Planned Parenthood is on the budgetary agenda for some, similar to the way the op and co find it morally objectionable to be forced to pay for other people's healthcare through skyrocketing premiums and taxes due to the Obamacare scheme.
While I don't enjoy the idiocy of politics and dislike how legislation gets wrapped up together, this thread amounts to a bunch of whining from pro-abortion people opposed to Obamacare berating the prolife position with a bunch of deflections from the original topic.
So we get a bunch of Aw Shucks sittin' on the porch pseudo philosophy telling us "well, gee wiz, people don't like to be told what to do". Maybe it's just because autonomous man just really really can't stand the idea of being held responsible to high and lofty things. Hey, if you're trying to hold me responsible to something as low rent as the next schmucks opinion.......well screw you....I'll do what I want when I want.
America has been given so much, but we just can't wait to squander it all because of our utterly low life thinking.........gee where is my next beer and lay. How much crap can we all accumulate before we check out. Maybe the real purpose of life is to see how debauched we can really become. We're beginning to make the ancient Greeks and Romans look like a bunch of pikers.
Children aren't really cherished as the profound blessings they really are, but now in our high and mighty ways they just get in the way of, our oh so precious narcissistic lives. 55 million people are gone, just in our country alone......they matter, they matter to me, one of them was mine. God have mercy on me, God have mercy on a people more and more manifesting less and less gratitude.
Secondly, abortion is not merely legal but I AM BEING FORCED TO FUND ABORTION THROUGH MY TAX DOLLARS!
I hope you understand from my previous posts that I am anti-abortion. While what you say about being forced fund abortion through your tax dollars is true, medicaid funds can only be used to pay for abortions due to rape, incest, or threat to mother's life.
In 2010, the federal government paid for 331 Medicaid abortions. Meanwhile, states financed 113,000. So a far greater number of abortions are paid for by the individual state governments.
Affordable Care Act. The ACA includes several provisions affecting abortion services.
Essential Benefits. The ACA establishes a minimum level of benefits that must be offered in the individual and small group markets. However, abortion coverage is prohibited from being required as part of this federally-established essential benefits package
Restrictions on Federal Funding on Health Exchanges. President Obama signed an Executive Order 13535 extending Hyde Amendment restrictions to federally-subsidized coverage on the ACA health exchanges. That is, federal subsidies (for premiums or cost sharing) are prohibited from being used for coverage for abortions beyond those permitted by federal law.
Restrictions on State Funding on Health Exchanges. The ACA also allows states to impose even greater restrictions than the Hyde Amendment on any abortion coverage provided by plans in their state Marketplace; to date, at least 25 states have enacted laws that place at least some additional restrictions on abortion coverage for all plans offered through the exchanges.
Gallup poll figures have rather consistently shown about half the population supports abortion being legal only under some circumstances, while less than one third support it being legal under any circumstances and only one fifth support it being illegal in all circumstances. Thus, the odds of the Hyde Amendment restrictions being lifted anytime soon appear quite remote.
As a very rough approximation, it appears that no more than 1,000 abortions a year are directly funded by federal taxpayers --i.e., roughly 1 in 1,000 abortions.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2015/10/02/are-american-taxpayers-paying-for-abortion/#1dcb1cf87709
We need to eliminate the hyperbole from the extremes to get wht the majority of America wants. Then we need to work in from there. Ain't going to happen all at once.
The fact that wretched scummie murderous outfits like PP get any of my money for so-called "good" things other than abortions is just a bait and switch. Really, really none of the tax payers money will ever have the stench of death attached to it, honest!
sevenhelmet
01-07-17, 19:44
I'm relieved to see this thread, actually. I might have thought that many here would cheer the Republican party on for trying relentlessly to kill PP. I don't understand why the Republican party has picked that particular hill to die on, but their refusal to adopt anything but a scorched earth policy is more likely than not to lead to a quick reversal of November's resounding repudiation of the elitist progressive agenda. And we'll be right back where we started.
Why does it always have to be the lesser of two ridiculous evils? I'd love to have a government we could really get behind. :mad:
Dist. Expert 26
01-07-17, 19:53
I'm relieved to see this thread, actually. I might have thought that many here would cheer the Republican party on for trying relentlessly to kill PP. I don't understand why the Republican party has picked that particular hill to die on, but their refusal to adopt anything but a scorched earth policy is more likely than not to lead to a quick reversal of November's resounding repudiation of the elitist progressive agenda. And we'll be right back where we started.
Why does it always have to be the lesser of two ridiculous evils? I'd love to have a government we could really get behind. :mad:
Which, again, is exactly the desired outcome.
Taking a step back from the abortion discussion, the ACA should not be repealed until a suitable alternative is ready for prime time. The republicans should have been formulating a plan for this eventuality. Repeal or without a proper plan, take away health insurance from people who previously did not have it, look for the dems to win next cycle. We must intelligently replace the ACA.
Taking a step back from the abortion discussion, the ACA should not be repealed until a suitable alternative is ready for prime time. The republicans should have been formulating a plan for this eventuality. Repeal or without a proper plan, take away health insurance from people who previously did not have it, look for the dems to win next cycle. We must intelligently replace the ACA.
Dear Heavens, THIS ^^^^^^^^^
Everything else is a smoke screen to where they can back out. There are practical ways to transition back to a competitive and privatized insurance model. They need to have been in development.
It can be done if people would get off their high horses and put aside their egos.
I'm relieved to see this thread, actually. I might have thought that many here would cheer the Republican party on for trying relentlessly to kill PP. I don't understand why the Republican party has picked that particular hill to die on, but their refusal to adopt anything but a scorched earth policy is more likely than not to lead to a quick reversal of November's resounding repudiation of the elitist progressive agenda. And we'll be right back where we started.
Why does it always have to be the lesser of two ridiculous evils? I'd love to have a government we could really get behind. :mad:
Since there are only about 3 real Christians on this forum, you can be rest assured that you're in really really good company. The sooner the Republicans stop all this social nonsense and get to the really important stuff of making sure we get all the gun stuff we want, and making sure our wallets are secured against waste the better. Time to get back to bread and circuses now.
jerrysimons
01-07-17, 20:50
I hope you understand from my previous posts that I am anti-abortion. While what you say about being forced fund abortion through your tax dollars is true, medicaid funds can only be used to pay for abortions due to rape, incest, or threat to mother's life.
In 2010, the federal government paid for 331 Medicaid abortions. Meanwhile, states financed 113,000. So a far greater number of abortions are paid for by the individual state governments.
Affordable Care Act. The ACA includes several provisions affecting abortion services.
Essential Benefits. The ACA establishes a minimum level of benefits that must be offered in the individual and small group markets. However, abortion coverage is prohibited from being required as part of this federally-established essential benefits package
Restrictions on Federal Funding on Health Exchanges. President Obama signed an Executive Order 13535 extending Hyde Amendment restrictions to federally-subsidized coverage on the ACA health exchanges. That is, federal subsidies (for premiums or cost sharing) are prohibited from being used for coverage for abortions beyond those permitted by federal law.
Restrictions on State Funding on Health Exchanges. The ACA also allows states to impose even greater restrictions than the Hyde Amendment on any abortion coverage provided by plans in their state Marketplace; to date, at least 25 states have enacted laws that place at least some additional restrictions on abortion coverage for all plans offered through the exchanges.
Gallup poll figures have rather consistently shown about half the population supports abortion being legal only under some circumstances, while less than one third support it being legal under any circumstances and only one fifth support it being illegal in all circumstances. Thus, the odds of the Hyde Amendment restrictions being lifted anytime soon appear quite remote.
As a very rough approximation, it appears that no more than 1,000 abortions a year are directly funded by federal taxpayers --i.e., roughly 1 in 1,000 abortions.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2015/10/02/are-american-taxpayers-paying-for-abortion/#1dcb1cf87709
We need to eliminate the hyperbole from the extremes to get wht the majority of America wants. Then we need to work in from there. Ain't going to happen all at once.
I got you. Thanks for the stats. Talking about Planned Parenthood though, who is propped up by federal and state funding. PP propaganda stating that abortion is only 3% of all services rendered omits division of total abortions performed by the total number of patients seen. Which when adjusted means about 11% or 1 in 9 women (preganancy at time of visit not factored here either!) who visit PP receive an abortion, accounting for over 300,000 abortions in 2010 or 25% of the annual total.
I don't think it is a stretch to say our tax dollars fund abortion when they float the PP ship, even if it is the funds from donors and the "reimbursements" from labs for all the body parts of pre-born babies that turn the ships propeller.
jerrysimons
01-07-17, 21:02
Let me turn this thread on its ear. Why do you (collective) think the ACA needs to be replealled?
You are not really funding other people's health care, many of whom could otherwise work and find health care possibilities through an employer if they weren't content suckling on the tit of government hand outs. You are also not really funding health care for young people under age 26 or people with preexisting conditions.
YOU are simply paying higher premiums for your OWN healthcare, not cutting them a check.
Taking a step back from the abortion discussion, the ACA should not be repealed until a suitable alternative is ready for prime time. The republicans should have been formulating a plan for this eventuality. Repeal or without a proper plan, take away health insurance from people who previously did not have it, look for the dems to win next cycle. We must intelligently replace the ACA.
There are a couple of fundamental truths that people need to accept in order for an ACA replacement to be viable:
1) There is no reality where all of America has access to quality healthcare. People need to accept the fact that 20-50 million Americans will go without or have some shitty Medicaid plan. So, that means that some people WILL lose their Medicaid or crappy bronze plan that they got on some state or federal exchange and go back to being uninsurable in the private markets. Unless you are willing to accept an attempt at single payer where everybody get shitty care, we need to accept this reality.
2) There can be no model where insurance companies must accept customers regardless of their pre-existing conditions. Such plans are not insurance and cannot survive without massive government subsidies or forced participation.
If we attempt a plan without accepting those realities it will be doomed to financial insolvency.
Firefly, we need to have a beer someday.
I routinely get into arguments with religious friends and family regarding abortion. I think it's an awful decision to have to make, but we need population control of some sort and we certainly don't need more children without caring parents.
More to the point, it's none of the government's business. Stop trying to legislate morality. Worry about real issues like taxes, energy, national debt, etc.
No, WE need to have a drink.
Let me turn this thread on its ear. Why do you (collective) think the ACA needs to be replealled?
1) It does little to address the real crisis in healthcare which is rising costs.
2) The economics of the ACA are fundamentally unsound. There is no real penalty to not having insurance if you have half a brain. Thus, the exchanges are overrun with high-cost clients with lots of medical expenses while the healthy are content to go without insurance because the tax "penalty" is complete crap.
3) The ACA relies disproportionately on Medicaid. About half of the new enrollees went on state Medicaid rolls. While this may seem reasonable to some, Medicaid in most states is to health insurance what a Big Mac is to filet mignon. Moreover, state expenditures on Medicaid are skyrocketing and will eventually require federal bailouts in many states as they must take on greater proportions of the costs in the future. Not to mention the fact that Medicaid does very little to change patient centered outcomes because most diseases are strongly linked to patient behavior, and most Medicaid recipients became poor through long standing maladaptive behavior patterns that easily overwhelm whatever dollars are thrown at the problem.
4) The so called "employer mandate" is a horrible job killer and a significant reason why we are stuck at a U6 Unemployment Rates of 10%.
5) Part of the funding for the ACA was a $700B raid on Medicare, essentially redirecting funds from those most likely to need healthcare dollars to America's recipient class - all hail the recipient...all hail the recipient.
1) It does little to address the real crisis in healthcare which is rising costs.
So what can be done to control the rising costs of healthcare? The hospitals aren't going broke taking medicaid and medicare cases, neither are clinics. I believe the bottom line is that medical costs rise primarily because people who can raise prices to increase their wealth do.
4) The so called "employer mandate" is a horrible job killer and a significant reason why we are stuck at a U6 Unemployment Rates of 10%.
I've always thought that was untrue. Can you give me some concrete evidence to dispute this:
Approximately 96 percent of employers are small businesses and have fewer than 50 FTE workers and are, therefore, exempt from the employer responsibility provisions (Treasury.gov).
Of those who do have to comply with the mandate, only a fraction don’t already offer qualifying coverage to full-time employees..
If these facts are true it seems the impact is not that much.
5) Part of the funding for the ACA was a $700B raid on Medicare, essentially redirecting funds from those most likely to need healthcare dollars to America's recipient class - all hail the recipient...all hail the recipient.
Where do we pay out the most on medicaid? To adults or children? I've done a bit of foster care and they had state medical cards which, if I'm correct is essentially medicaid.
So while I get the 'all hail the recipient class' I am also reminded that not everyone in the recipient class chooses to be there.
Bottom line is I think the intentions of the ACA were noble, not executed correctly and too politicized. The passage of the act was beholden to the special interest groups of pharmacology, hospital administrators, and insurance companies, which made it not as efficient as it could have been at the expense of increasing those parties wealth. We need to fix that.
Dems are fine with killing fetuses, but not adults.
Republicans are fine with killing adults, but not fetuses.
Let's be clear, the mainstream stance of both major parties agree with the legal killing of American citizens, but the specifics are different.
It's a strange world we live in. Personally, I'm alright with killing fertilized eggs AND certain adults. Hell, even kids if the offense is great enough (murder for example).
The death cultists are many. It is a sure thing that many are on this forum.
The death cultists are many. It is a sure thing that many are on this forum.
It's quite the logical leap from acknowledging that death should be legal in some situations to someone worshipping death.
Who (on this forum of all places) doesn't get at least a little happy seeing ISIS combatants blown apart from the gun cam of an Apache? Or terrorists taken down at closer range by LEO or Mil personnel? And even then, it's a massive logical leap to go from the profession of arms to a "death cultist".
jerrysimons
01-08-17, 07:41
It's quite the logical leap from acknowledging that death should be legal in some situations to someone worshipping death.
Who (on this forum of all places) doesn't get at least a little happy seeing ISIS combatants blown apart from the gun cam of an Apache? Or terrorists taken down at closer range by LEO or Mil personnel? And even then, it's a massive logical leap to go from the profession of arms to a "death cultist".
Not saying it's worshiping death. Though unflinchingly acknowledging the killing involved in abortion is cause for reflection. We have sanitized barbarism.
Death of adults, I assume you are talking about the death penalty, as a consequence of grevious criminal action prompting their permenant removal from society, is not the moral equivalent of taking an innocent life you created, when you could have prevented its creation, simply because you don't want to accept the consequence of your actions. Neither is the defensive use of lethal force or warfare against enemy forces the same. The closest analogue that we "accept" is the death of civilian non-combatants as collateral in warfare, and we certainly don't pound our chests and scream about it the way "Hear me roar, I kill babies, I am WOMAN!" is the battle cry of militant feminism.
While I personally abhor abortion, this is *NOT* the most important issue this country needs to fix. Abortion is a divisive distraction, at best and deserves far less attention than some of the other, more important issues.
Far too often the RINO's fall for the fake and take the bait of the abortion distraction. Abortion cannot and likely will not change as law for many years, and ONLY with a very dramatic disruption to the SCOTUS and the right case.
sevenhelmet
01-08-17, 09:34
While I personally abhor abortion, this is *NOT* the most important issue this country needs to fix. Abortion is a divisive distraction, at best and deserves far less attention than some of the other, more important issues.
Far too often the RINO's fall for the fake and take the bait of the abortion distraction. Abortion cannot and likely will not change as law for many years, and ONLY with a very dramatic disruption to the SCOTUS and the right case.
Exactly this. Abortion, racism, sexism, classism, and sexuality are all brought into the spotlight to divide us as a people and grind the government to a halt. If the government actually spent some time governing, rather than babysitting, the country just might be better off, and we might have a Republican party I could actually support.
How long are we going to let the MSM divide us into neat little groups?
Where do we pay out the most on medicaid? To adults or children? I've done a bit of foster care and they had state medical cards which, if I'm correct is essentially medicaid.
So while I get the 'all hail the recipient class' I am also reminded that not everyone in the recipient class chooses to be there.
Bottom line is I think the intentions of the ACA were noble, not executed correctly and too politicized. The passage of the act was beholden to the special interest groups of pharmacology, hospital administrators, and insurance companies, which made it not as efficient as it could have been at the expense of increasing those parties wealth. We need to fix that.
Hmm, hospitals ARE absolutely going broke (and many went broke) due to provisions of the ACA which included an expansion of Medicaid, cuts in Medicare, and creating a class of functionally uninsured due to high deductibles and out of pocket limits on the exchanges. My own healthcare system (Wake Forest Baptist Health) was about $150 million in the red in FY2012-2014, and massive cuts in services, intramural research funding, and our education mission were needed to get us in the black. Duke, Vanderbilt, and many other high-performing private systems were in similar holes and had to make hard choices to correct their ships. When you look at public hospitals like Grady in Atlanta, Detroit Receiving, MetroHealth in Cleveland, VCU/MCV in Richmond, etc. you see an even more dire picture as these hospitals could not survive without large infusions of public dollars. Take a look at the healthcare landscape over the past 5 years and you see massive mergers as small systems look to affiliate with large system and visa versa to use economies of scale to deal with the ACA's regulatory burden. As they merge, duplicated services get eliminated which further limits supply and patient choices. The notion that prices are going up because hospitals and insurers are screwing you as they become rich is laughable. These industries generally operate at 2-5% margins IF they are well performing.
Pricing are rising for several reasons including:
1) Aging population consuming more resources without any real concern for cost due to 3rd party payers
2) Ever increasing technology cost and availability since devices are never recycled (have you ever been given the option of using a 2000 era MRI machine for a lower cost?). We use more tests to diagnose more "disease" without a comparable improvement in outcome. For example, every leveled trauma patient at our shop gets a "total body" CT on arrival. We find a lot of little injuries that would have been missed 15 years ago with more selective scanning. Have our outcomes significantly improved to justify this cost in dollars and radiation? Nope - those little injuries don't change outcomes.
3) Ever increasing regulatory burdens including regulations that limit competition
If you want to lower cost, then incentivize consumers to ration their healthcare consumption. This can be done with expanded use of HSAs, low cost catastrophic coverage, interstate competition, etc. Make patients have a greater financial stake in the came so that they shop around for the best value. This injection of competition is the backbone of capitalism which oversaw the greatest rise in living standards Ever. The ACA does the exact opposite.
As for the ACA stiffiling jobs, there is ample out there describing the effect on part-time employment and first time job seekers. A simple google search on "ACA and job growth" should keep you busy for a while. Casey Mulligan and Thomas Sowell have written extensively on this. Is the ACA solely responsible for our high U6 numbers? No, but it is a significant factor.
Averageman
01-08-17, 10:28
Exactly this. Abortion, racism, sexism, classism, and sexuality are all brought into the spotlight to divide us as a people and grind the government to a halt. If the government actually spent some time governing, rather than babysitting, the country just might be better off, and we might have a Republican party I could actually support.
How long are we going to let the MSM divide us into neat little groups?
Very True and i must say, that seems to be their plan.
I see the Trump Presidency as a "blip" on their radar. I honestly feel both the Democrats and the MSM wanted to help Trump become the nominee for the GOP. I believe that because all of the press they were giving him leading up to the primary's. The thought was as long as it isn't a real contender Hillary will wipe the floor with him.
Now Hillary is a footnote and Trump is at the helm. Will anything be accomplished in the next four years? Honestly I think "they" (both sides) will obstruct
any chances that he can or will accomplish much.
Obama-care was built around the idea that once it was underway, there would be little chance to roll back to the old way of insuring people. We are now stuck with coming up with a better plan, but honestly I don't think "they" want one.
The GOP has had plenty of time to come up with an alternative way to build a workable health-care program, so where is it? That leads me to believe, they don't really want one.
Too much money from many different sources is going to insure we don't totally come off of this system. It may get tweeked a bit, but we now are stuck with it.
Add to this that there will always be winners and losers. The MSM will continue to use Health-care as a diversionary topic, they will point out a lot of narratives about a heartless GOP and Trump as a buffoon. In the meantime, any progress will be stalled in committee.
But you are right, most of this is Baby Sitting and has little to do with a free market and a system that could promote heath-care. People want security even if it enslaves them to a corrupt system.
We can all end abortion by going on strike and never having sex with women ever again.
That'll learn 'em
We can all end abortion by going on strike and never having sex with women ever again.
That'll learn 'em
Nah, no need for such extreme measures. Do what I do and stick with anal - it's a win, win situation for everyone. ;)
It's quite the logical leap from acknowledging that death should be legal in some situations to someone worshipping death.
Who (on this forum of all places) doesn't get at least a little happy seeing ISIS combatants blown apart from the gun cam of an Apache? Or terrorists taken down at closer range by LEO or Mil personnel? And even then, it's a massive logical leap to go from the profession of arms to a "death cultist".
Not a leap at all, since I'm using the word cultist to define a worldview. A worldview like yours'. A worldview that really can't justify it's assertions. Look at the flippant, perverted, stupid, and Aw shucks " ain't I so darn funny" posts just above.......truly reprobate. The blind lead the blind and they both fall into the ditch.
Averageman
01-08-17, 10:54
You know, if you look at the recent posts about the four hoodlums that decided to torture the special needs kid, you kind of have to wonder.
How many children do those four have? What kind of parents did they have? What makes them so BS crazy that they act they way they do and finally, what have they done to make this world a better place?
I don't consider myself a part of a "death cult", but I don't think the world would have lost much if their "mothers" would have put their feet in the stirrups and had all of that sucked out of the womb. They didn't and now this is the end result.
You know, if you look at the recent posts about the four hoodlums that decided to torture the special needs kid, you kind of have to wonder.
How many children do those four have? What kind of parents did they have? What makes them so BS crazy that they act they way they do and finally, what have they done to make this world a better place?
I don't consider myself a part of a "death cult", but I don't think the world would have lost much if their "mothers" would have put their feet in the stirrups and had all of that sucked out of the womb. They didn't and now this is the end result.
Hindsight is always 20/20. I wonder how many decent, hard working, God fearing people were butchered in those 55 million? I guess the divide between me and you is much deeper than previously stated. Any similarity in our outlooks is completely superficial.
Averageman
01-08-17, 11:12
Hindsight is always 20/20. I wonder how many decent, hard working, God fearing people were butchered in those 55 million? I guess the divide between me and you is much deeper than previously stated. Any similarity in our outlooks is completely superficial.
Our realities are the sum of our experiences, I would guess we are not as far apart on most issues as you might guess, we just have very different life experience.
If we look at nature and consider the Bee, how would a hive of Bees deal with those drones that simply provide nothing and repeatedly attack those within the hive that do?
Nature has a way of dealing with these things.
If you look at it on a human level or from the Christian teachings, I simply see people capable of such things as soulless animals capable of bipedal movement and speech, but incapable of much more. I have no problem with them eliminating their offspring in the womb or facing trial and a state sponsored execution.
We cannot allow everyone to be endangered or be forced to supplement their life failures. Simply allow them to eliminate themselves as quickly as possible.
jerrysimons
01-08-17, 12:12
Our realities are the sum of our experiences, I would guess we are not as far apart on most issues as you might guess, we just have very different life experience.
If we look at nature and consider the Bee, how would a hive of Bees deal with those drones that simply provide nothing and repeatedly attack those within the hive that do?
Nature has a way of dealing with these things.
If you look at it on a human level or from the Christian teachings, I simply see people capable of such things as soulless animals capable of bipedal movement and speech, but incapable of much more. I have no problem with them eliminating their offspring in the womb or facing trial and a state sponsored execution.
We cannot allow everyone to be endangered or be forced to supplement their life failures. Simply allow them to eliminate themselves as quickly as possible.
The difference is you don't know. In one case someone had a chance, however small you may judge it to be, and blew it. In the other the decision was made for them before they did anything good or bad.
Re Obamacare free stuff:
Strap in boys. Once free shit is given to the masses it doesn't get taken back. Prepair for disappointment. You think Trump, populist that he is, has the balls to take away that which was given? He has already signaled many times, even during his campaign that he would support the pre existing conditions and 26yr old dependent parts of ACA. Nevermind floating single payer a time or two. But I get it. You want to blame pro lifers and throw around the term RINO.
Digital_Damage
01-08-17, 12:38
Been traveling... so I'm surprise this went of the rails (perhaps not).
But my 2 cents
- Abortion is a function of a stable society It has existed in advance societies for millennia's. You can't get rid of it, It will not go away It has existed before modern religion and will exist when those religions fall from favor.
- The people that run around claiming to be the only "true" Christians could not be any less of a Christian if they tried to. Their hypocrisy and deviation from their own faith for the sake of arguing and vanity is comical.
Not a leap at all, since I'm using the word cultist to define a worldview. A worldview like yours'. A worldview that really can't justify it's assertions. Look at the flippant, perverted, stupid, and Aw shucks " ain't I so darn funny" posts just above.......truly reprobate. The blind lead the blind and they both fall into the ditch.
Anything is defendable if you just redefine words to suit your narrative. You'd be a great politician.
Hmm, hospitals ARE absolutely going broke (and many went broke) due to provisions of the ACA which included an expansion of Medicaid, cuts in Medicare, and creating a class of functionally uninsured due to high deductibles and out of pocket limits on the exchanges. My own healthcare system (Wake Forest Baptist Health) was about $150 million in the red in FY2012-2014, and massive cuts in services, intramural research funding, and our education mission were needed to get us in the black.
The below kind of goes along with this statement I made in the original: I believe the bottom line is that medical costs rise primarily because people who can raise prices to increase their wealth do.
Wake Forest Baptist CEO McConnell receives nearly $2.5 million in compensation
A commitment Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center made to Dr. John McConnell, its chief executive, when he was recruited led to a nearly 50 percent increase in his total compensation for fiscal year 2010-11, the center reported Tuesday.
McConnell was paid almost $2.5 million in total compensation, compared with $1.68 million for fiscal 2009-10.
Because Wake Forest Baptist's fiscal year ended June 30, 2011, the latest compensation figures are 10˝ months old.
The executive compensation numbers are becoming public six weeks after McConnell told employees the center is considering reducing its workforce as part of a major initiative aimed at improving patient outcomes at a lower cost.
With 13,588 full- and part-time employees, the center has the county's largest workforce.
For example, every leveled trauma patient at our shop gets a "total body" CT on arrival. We find a lot of little injuries that would have been missed 15 years ago with more selective scanning. Have our outcomes significantly improved to justify this cost in dollars and radiation? Nope - those little injuries don't change outcomes.
So what slice scanner do you use? Lease or own? New or Refurbished? It makes economic sense to scan everyone you can - it pays for the machine quicker and most everything after that is profit.
Medicaid and Medicare prices are set by Congress. How many members of the Congress are former, or current MD's? Given that and considering the lobbying pressure from the AMA, and the American Hospital Association, do you really expect anyone who has even just cursorily looked into the issue to believe that hospital and doctors go broke treating medicare and medicaid patients.
Sorry, not me, the reason hospitals and doctors don't want to see medicaid and medicare patients is that they can make more money seeing other patients.
What does medicaid get paid for that CT scan?
What does an uninsured person, not on medicaid, get billed?
What is the BC/BS write off on that same bill?
30 years ago this wasn't a major issue. Largely because the guy running the hospital wasn't getting paid more than the guy who ran the local University. For the most part the system and the people in it were not profit motivated. Rather they were service motivated.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Doctors are the primary cause of the problem, and I do not think Doctors should be paid like a high school teacher. It requires a dedication that I do not possess to be a good doctor. I get that someone just out of med school is all loaned up and wants to get them paid off as quick as possible, and I get that not everyone wants to practice in BFE. But at the same time 'I' dont believe it should be all about the accumulation of wealth. YMMV.
It shouldn't be about the accumulation of wealth? That's not very capitalist of you :p
Anything is defendable if you just redefine words to suit your narrative. You'd be a great politician.
I didn't redefine the word, but broadened it's meaning. I have never in any of my posts on this forum, not said that atheistic/agnostic worldviews are anything but a different religion, but quite the opposite. You may think you're free from all religious views, but I and like mind people don't think you're free from "religion". A worldview is religious by nature....encompassing especially.....morality, an abstract, non-physical idea. I think "death cult" fits perfectly, since the cultural Marxists have historically invested SO MUCH capital in protecting this"right". It's practically the very definition of "freedom" to these people. You and them (probably much more them) spend much time making sure nobody gets away with the idea that the product of conception is actually a human being. This idea must be defeated at all costs........to the point of massive religious zeal....thus cultic. And, yes, I consider you and the other 10-12 dominate atheists/agnostics on this forum to be part of that cultural Marxist movement that looks to destroy any Christian influence or practice in this country. You may be "conservative" when it comes to economics, but I believe you and the others most definitely are cM when it come to sexual conduct and the nature of the family.
Dist. Expert 26
01-08-17, 15:49
There's a huge difference between Marxist and wanting to leave people alone. Your religious views are just that; YOUR views. Don't impose them on others unless you want their views imposed on you in return.
Been traveling... so I'm surprise this went of the rails (perhaps not).
But my 2 cents
- Abortion is a function of a stable society It has existed in advance societies for millennia's. You can't get rid of it, It will not go away It has existed before modern religion and will exist when those religions fall from favor.
- The people that run around claiming to be the only "true" Christians could not be any less of a Christian if they tried to. Their hypocrisy and deviation from their own faith for the sake of arguing and vanity is comical.
"Societies mores" wouldn't be my standard, I generally flee from it. Making the argument that because something is old, or because lots of people practice it make it necessary is, well, just fallacious. Is it really your argument that a society can't be stable and advanced without abortion? I actually think it's the opposite....a society that kills it's offspring isn't advanced, but degenerate. And our society is hardly stable, since this is a HUGE issue to our country.....maybe even causing much instability and political turmoil. Maybe if we eventually just weed out those pesky believers things can settle down.
And who claimed to be the "only" true Christian around here? And if that person made such a claim, why would that make him a hypocrite? Maybe that person IS the "only" true Christian here. Maybe that person is just wrong and not a hypocrite.
There's a huge difference between Marxist and wanting to leave people alone. Your religious views are just that; YOUR views. Don't impose them on others unless you want their views imposed on you in return.
Your cM ilk on SCOTUS decided in 1973 that it was the law of the land, they forced me to live in a land where baby murder was now the "good". Christians aren't called to look the other way. Let me add, since orthodox Christians REALLY believe that in abortion a REAL person made in the image of God is being murdered we find it impossible to not just leave people alone......alone to do what?
Let me ask you something. Is a baby a human being, to be loved and cherished and protected 1 day after he or she is born? How about the day before? Did some skin and muscle tissue change the nature of the child from human to non-human? How about the next day, and the next, and the next? At some point you want me to look the other way so you and like mind people can play god. From my point of view, people who think abortion is somehow a "good" are flat out dangerous.
Dist. Expert 26
01-08-17, 16:18
Your cM ilk on SCOTUS decided in 1973 that it was the law of the land, they forced me to live in a land where baby murder was now the "good". Christians aren't called to look the other way.
A) I wasn't even an idea in 1973.
B) Nobody forces you to live here. You're free to emigrate to any country that will accept you, renounce your citizenship and live out your days free from the evil freedoms of the United States.
C) I'm not a cultural Marxist. I'm a libertarian. Meaning I don't care what other people do so long as it doesn't impact me.
D) It's not your job as a Christian to pass judgment on others, regardless of their life choices. That is God's place. If you are as purely Christian as you claim to be you would forgive those people just as Jesus does, and know that one day they will have to stand in front of their creator and answer for their sins. But I suspect that you have more in common with the followers of Muhammad than the true followers of Jesus.
And now we've devolved to religious mores/"cultural marxism"/"No true Scotsman" rationalizing and so on...
Wonderful.
This thread has illustrated perfectly why ACA is here to stay.
And all I wanted was to go back to paying what I was paying before 2008
A) I wasn't even an idea in 1973.
B) Nobody forces you to live here. You're free to emigrate to any country that will accept you, renounce your citizenship and live out your days free from the evil freedoms of the United States.
C) I'm not a cultural Marxist. I'm a libertarian. Meaning I don't care what other people do so long as it doesn't impact me.
D) It's not your job as a Christian to pass judgment on others, regardless of their life choices. That is God's place. If you are as purely Christian as you claim to be you would forgive those people just as Jesus does, and know that one day they will have to stand in front of their creator and answer for their sins. But I suspect that you have more in common with the followers of Muhammad than the true followers of Jesus.
A) Did not Roe v Wade happen?
B)Why should I emigrate? Why don't you and your fellow travelers go somewhere else and do your filthy deeds?
C)Libertarians are just another facet of the "kill Christianity" crowd. When it comes to sex and family, your views are at a fundamental level....Cultural Marxism.
D)Is really, really bad theology. First of all, Jesus did not teach to never judge, but to judge by a righteous standard...His. Secondly, we are not to judge hypocritically. If my wife and I secretly went off and got an abortion, and then started condemning others for the very sin we committed. Then I would be in the wrong. Forgiveness is ALWAYS related to repentance. There is ZERO biblical teaching for unilateral forgiveness. God doesn't forgive unilaterally and He doesn't require us to. "If your brother repents....forgive him". The last part is just slander, a violation of the 9th commandment.
B) Nobody forces you to live here. You're free to emigrate to any country that will accept you, renounce your citizenship and live out your days free from the evil freedoms of the United States.
OT but I know someone who did just that just to be able to vote and not get raped on taxes(Getting double hit on host country/US)
If at any point America feels "oppressive", drive out to the middle of nowhere and see how long it takes for someone to actually, physically mess with you. I surmise it would be potentially months.
There are a LOT of things that happen everyday in these United States that:
-I find revolting
-I consider retarded
-I think are beneath contempt
-Make me want to drop kick a kitten off a bridge
But somehow I manage to say FIDO.
And now we've devolved to religious mores/"cultural marxism"/"No true Scotsman" rationalizing and so on...
Wonderful.
This thread has illustrated perfectly why ACA is here to stay.
And all I wanted was to go back to paying what I was paying before 2008
You don't like what I'm saying.......wow, how surprising. If you are believing the things cM believe, and upholding the things that cM uphold....then. But if it makes you feel better, I'll put it this way. From my perspective as a Christian, there are two views of reality......God's view and Satan's view. Which view does the "Libertarian" fall under? I'll help......Satan's, along with the cultural marxists.....it's because they believe, speak, and do many of the same things concerning sex and family, and their general disdain for things "Christian".
Dist. Expert 26
01-08-17, 16:46
A) Did not Roe v Wade happen?
B)Why should I emigrate? Why don't you and your fellow travelers go somewhere else and do your filthy deeds?
C)Libertarians are just another facet of the "kill Christianity" crowd. When it comes to sex and family, your views are at a fundamental level....Cultural Marxism.
D)Is really, really bad theology. First of all, Jesus did not teach to never judge, but to judge by a righteous standard...His. Secondly, we are not to judge hypocritically. If my wife and I secretly went off and got an abortion, and then started condemning others for the very sin we committed. Then I would be in the wrong. Forgiveness is ALWAYS related to repentance. There is ZERO biblical teaching for unilateral forgiveness. God doesn't forgive unilaterally and He doesn't require us to. "If your brother repents....forgive him". The last part is just slander, a violation of the 9th commandment.
It did, but it was not "my ilk" any more than the crusaders were your ilk. Before my time, not my responsibility.
I hate to break it to you, but the United States is not a Christian theocracy. In fact, our republic was founded to escape such governments. If it is a theocracy you desire, I suggest you try to find one elsewhere.
I have no issue with the practice of any religion. I have issue with those who impose their views on others.
I'm not going to argue religion with you. Your beliefs are yours alone.
It did, but it was not "my ilk" any more than the crusaders were your ilk. Before my time, not my responsibility.
I hate to break it to you, but the United States is not a Christian theocracy. In fact, our republic was founded to escape such governments. If it is a theocracy you desire, I suggest you try to find one elsewhere.
I have no issue with the practice of any religion. I have issue with those who impose their views on others.
I'm not going to argue religion with you. Your beliefs are yours alone.
Well, you and the boys on the 73' SCOTUS seem to have the same ideas about abortion. And if you want to say that Pope Innocent III and I have similar views about the Trinity, the resurrection and other doctrine that's fine, but it's not fine to say we have similar views on "crusades".
I haven't forced anyone to believe anything, but the nature of law is "force". The difference between us is on what basis is law made and enforced. That has ALWAYS involved religion, since the dirt of the universe hasn't been so kind as to tell us how to conduct ourselves. You mean you don't have a problem with religion until someone like me wants to take it to the public square and apply it. You want to apply your "Libertarianism" out there in the wild, but that's OK....your really not wanting to make laws (force) your views on me in law are you?
You brought up religion.
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