View Full Version : M4Carbine history and the CZ
It is funny, but in researching some threads and CZ guns, I found that the tide has really turned on this forum WRT CZs. IN the 2005-2011 time frame they were looked at as good range guns with limited following in the "serious use" category. Now, CZ has a devoted following here, and the generally accepted reputation as utterly reliable, superbly accurate, and a great service pistol.
I think its the convergence of an evolving line of 'better featured' pistols, and the realization that CZ has always been reliable and accurate, and except for those darn trigger return springs, have been trouble free.
Today, people seem to be lined up to ditch their old SF pistol for the new P10 series. Amazing.
I think it has a lot to do with Mike Pannone's use of CZ pistols too. I have always been a fan of CZ and it was my first pistol but they have been flying under the radar for many years.
brushy bill
01-10-17, 08:59
Gun buying public is fickle. Similar could be said about thought here towards the Beretta 92 & PX4 (from less to more favorable), M&P (the reverse), favorable reception of Hudson with little available info when others are subject to a wait and see attitude, etc.
I have owned CZ pistols since 1994. I've always been fascinated with Combloc stuff, probably because it wasn't readily available before the early 90's, and also some of it is just darn good. When I first owned CZ's many people believed they were just cheap, commie guns that were poorly made, and poorly finished. They worked for me, so I kept buying them over the years, and have watched their offerings expand, and the finish quality get better, not that I've had any poor quality examples.
While I am not a polymer fan, and prefer the more traditional CZ's offerings, they've expanded their excellent polymer line to embrace a wider range of shooters. However, they still produce excellent metal framed pistols, for defense, and even an expanded enhanced line like the Shadow series.
I don't own any CZ rifles yet, but from what I hear they are excellent, and they've shown innovation with the EVO, and Bren guns. When I get another bolt gun for hunting, it will most likely be a CZ. I half expected CZ to lose their way, somewhat like Sig, as their success grew. But, so far, no signs of that. With the new P-10, they may get a part of the LE market. I hope CZ continues on its current path, and does not let success ruin them. They still offer excellent firearms, at very competitive prices.
From what I have read their CS has also changed for the better since 10 years ago. (I had a bad encounter back in the day, and back then you paid/did shipping).
A lot of negativity surely had to do with being produced in the an Eastern Block country. Not really looked to as producing
top quality goods. Seems that a lot of good European craftsmanship survived the Soviet occupation and is being modernized. I've heard for years the CZ was a good gun but always hesitated because of Eastern Block stigma. At least that's my take.
Looks like the P10 may crash through any barriers and be looked upon as a Western European product. Hope they get this one right with plenty of support on the producer side.
I see Pilot1 touched on this subject above.
As a data point, it is interesting to see Mr. gunsngear's video on the P09 where he actually goes into the slide and shows that there are no machining marks anywhere . Back in the day, that was a CZ signature – to have machining marks in the slides. Yet my PreB runs like a champ.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-10-17, 17:22
I remember taking a class with LAV years ago where he said the CZs were not durable, and had small parts breakage. This was back when he had nearly guru status for me so I just ignored the CZs. But in the past few years I have put my toes in the CZ waters and I have had good results.
WickedWillis
01-10-17, 17:37
I've always been a big fan of the CZ-75 family of handguns. I just never took them too seriously since I got into handguns, because it was Glock! HK! SIG! Beat into my head over and over again and that is what I went with. I will be buying an SP01 tactical after taxes though, and hopefully an Evo Scorpion as well :)
Also, CZ has been absolutely killing it lately releasing quality, interesting firearms at really good prices. Look how much the Evo Scorpion, Bren, and the P10 are undercutting their competition. Plus the Scorpion has excellent magazine pricing compared to the competitors. I feel like CZ is forcing all the gun guys to really take notice that they don't only make the CZ75
An Undocumented Worker
01-10-17, 17:39
CZs were considered bastard children around here back around 2008 based on the opinions of a handful of SME's and few members had actually spent any real time with one themselves. Now, many of the 75b's and the like were not nearly as polished as the competition, but they just work well with great ergonomics and good accuracy. I will say I'm rather excited to try out the new P10c when the become available.
The first pistol I ever purchased was a CZ 85 combat chambered in 9mm. All of my friends thought I was crazy for not getting a glock. I reminded them I wanted sa/da solid metal gun for a reasonable price. Then when they shot it at the range, they realized why I purchased it over other pistols. It fits my hands perfect and makes an average shooter, shoot decent. (Side note, the only pistol I like better than it ergonomically is my Walther PPQ M2 .45acp but that's for another thread)
I've had some parts break it wear out, i.e. Recoil springs wearing and slide stop breaking. Took about 5K rounds for that to happen in a span of two years. I added some CZ custom parts too. I love the gun, any issues with it otherwise came down to crappy ammo. As long as they keep producing good weapons I will always recommend them. I'd like to get a CZ rifle chambered in 22 magnum one of these days too.
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noonesshowmonkey
01-10-17, 19:44
I think it has a lot to do with Mike Pannone's use of CZ pistols too. I have always been a fan of CZ and it was my first pistol but they have been flying under the radar for many years.
Mr. Pannone's article about the P-07 (http://www.defensereview.com/cz-p-07-duty-combattactical-pistol-the-best-pistol-nobody-knows-about/) over at Defense Review is almost entirely where my involvement with CZ pistols began. My family has always had a strong relationship with CZ rifles; the Mauser action CZ I've shot are lazer beams. After handling and shooting a P-07, I knew that I had to have one.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?11853-My-customized-tuned-CZ75-with-my-Kimber-Custom-Shop-1911&highlight=cz75
When I bought my first pistol, I got a 75 compact 40. Cz refused to make a compact 75, with a light and safety in 9mm. After frustration of lack of aftremarked support, I sold it and got an m&p.
Great gun, and I loved it, just didn't fit for my uses. I do miss the recoil on that thing, very light, especially considering it was 40.
If CZ wanted my feedback on the 75 I'd tell them the firing pin retaining pins are weak (they break from dry firing), the philips head grip screws are tacky, the sights cut your hand when you try to rack the slide aggressively, the slide is too hard to get a hold of to rack if your hands are wet, it's too hard to remove the firing pin, and the green glow in the dark sights would be better painted white. The whole "having the slide ride inside the frame makes it more accurate" thing is just a bunch of nonsense for practical defensive shooting. I'd rather have a G Beretta instead.
I'd be interested in the 550 bolt actions if they had as nice of a fit and finish as the 452 and they came with stripper clips to make them a bit more exciting.
If CZ wanted my feedback on the 75 I'd tell them the firing pin retaining pins are weak (they break from dry firing),
Use snap caps when dry firing. Problem solved.
the philips head grip screws are tacky,
Easily, and cheaply replaced with nicer screws from Brownells.
the sights cut your hand when you try to rack the slide aggressively,
Never had that problem with any of my CZ's, including my PCR (carry gun) with the Novak like sights. Also, sights are easily replaceable. Many replace the cheap Glock plastic sights for example.
the slide is too hard to get a hold of to rack if your hands are wet, it's too hard to remove the firing pin, and the green glow in the dark sights would be better painted white. The whole "having the slide ride inside the frame makes it more accurate" thing is just a bunch of nonsense for practical defensive shooting. I'd rather have a G Beretta instead.
Again, never had an issue gripping, nor racking the slide. My CZ's are consistently more accurate than my Beretta 92FS. I like accurate firearms. YMMV.
I have owned CZ pistols since 1994. I've always been fascinated with Combloc stuff, probably because it wasn't readily available before the early 90's, and also some of it is just darn good. When I first owned CZ's many people believed they were just cheap, commie guns that were poorly made, and poorly finished. They worked for me, so I kept buying them over the years, and have watched their offerings expand, and the finish quality get better, not that I've had any poor quality examples.
While I am not a polymer fan, and prefer the more traditional CZ's offerings, they've expanded their excellent polymer line to embrace a wider range of shooters. However, they still produce excellent metal framed pistols, for defense, and even an expanded enhanced line like the Shadow series.
I don't own any CZ rifles yet, but from what I hear they are excellent, and they've shown innovation with the EVO, and Bren guns. When I get another bolt gun for hunting, it will most likely be a CZ. I half expected CZ to lose their way, somewhat like Sig, as their success grew. But, so far, no signs of that. With the new P-10, they may get a part of the LE market. I hope CZ continues on its current path, and does not let success ruin them. They still offer excellent firearms, at very competitive prices.
I gotta ask. What is it with the American gun buying public and their infatuation with"fit and finish"? I'm not saying it's OK to just slap firearms together any which way but I never understood the whole.....If it's poorly finished it's poorly made mentality.
I've had a few CZs. My first was a 75 compact. It was a good gun but I never liked the heavy DA trigger. Along with that they were never really lefty friendly. Used to be that the 85 was it when you wanted a ambi safety or decocker. Afterwards I had a P09 when they first came out but there were frame bulging problems a d I sold it. Had a 85 for a while, which actually had a good DA trigger but ended up trading for something else.
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Use snap caps when dry firing. Problem solved.
Easily, and cheaply replaced with nicer screws from Brownells.
Never had that problem with any of my CZ's, including my PCR (carry gun) with the Novak like sights. Also, sights are easily replaceable. Many replace the cheap Glock plastic sights for example.
Again, never had an issue gripping, nor racking the slide. My CZ's are consistently more accurate than my Beretta 92FS. I like accurate firearms. YMMV.
A lot of my complaints aren't major. They're more like annoyances. The firing pin retaining pins broke after over 100k dry fires, the screws are no big deal, the P-01 sights are the sharp ones, and difficulty of racking the slide is subjective.
I gotta ask. What is it with the American gun buying public and their infatuation with"fit and finish"? I'm not saying it's OK to just slap firearms together any which way but I never understood the whole.....If it's poorly finished it's poorly made mentality.
I've had a few CZs. My first was a 75 compact. It was a good gun but I never liked the heavy DA trigger. Along with that they were never really lefty friendly. Used to be that the 85 was it when you wanted a ambi safety or decocker. Afterwards I had a P09 when they first came out but there were frame bulging problems a d I sold it. Had a 85 for a while, which actually had a good DA trigger but ended up trading for something else.
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Good question. I always wondered why people worried about machine marks where there's no contact, but never cared enough to question it
Good question. I always wondered why people worried about machine marks where there's no contact, but never cared enough to question it
Same, I just didn't bother typing that. Basically the "fit and finish" part
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I went to a funshow this past weekend....Since there was only 3 metal framed CZ's I decided I'd sale a Ruger I'd brought along but hadn't taken out of my pack and buy a 5" 2.0 I sold the Ruger and went to the vendor with 2.0's for 459 bucks....but as I held them for the 100th time that day (4 vendors had the FDE 5's) I just couldn't pull the trigger on it.
Why? Because I knew the Striker fired CZ is coming out, while my p-09 is the only plastic CZ I thought I'd ever need I've decided a p10 is a must. Or maybe a P-01 Tactical if I ever see one...My 75 makes me look like a marksman
A lot of my complaints aren't major. They're more like annoyances. The firing pin retaining pins broke after over 100k dry fires, the screws are no big deal, the P-01 sights are the sharp ones, and difficulty of racking the slide is subjective.
That's why the make a variety of guns. I like most of them! Everyone is a compromise, however.
There ARE features I'd change if I were the chief engineer, but they are accurate, reliable, and ergonomic.
One key feature on all their hammer guns is the slide profile that MAKES THEIR guns shorter in overall height. Think about it - their full size gun (75B, SP01, Phantom, etc.) has the SAME ovreall height as a G17. With a 17 rd mag (MecGar), they are very close. For a hammer gun, this is VERY good. Everyone talks about the low bore axis, internal rails giving accuracy, etc. - but the kicker is the lighter slide and lower profile.
KalashniKEV
01-12-17, 09:52
It is funny, but in researching some threads and CZ guns, I found that the tide has really turned on this forum WRT CZs.
CZ pistols have always been accurate, reliable, and ergonomic... along with carrying good capacity and at an excellent price.
SMEs who are SMEs and can evaluate new equipment with an open mind have always known this.
Lots of folks just repeat the same BS they heard, and we still suffer from this as a forum.
Pistol Discussion also tends to lag behind AR discussion and Rifle Discussion in general in terms of quality.
Probably there is some other forum out there on the vast interwebs where they have always recognized the excellence of CZ pistols but are only just now understanding that "Stick to the Ayyy, Beeeee, Ceeeees, son! Armalite! Bushmaster! Colt!" is the same exact nonsense.
FWIW M4C actually got me to take the CZ plunge. I got a surplus for stupid cheap and think it is what the BHP shoukd have been. P10 has me interested as well. Same for the Shadow Tac II.
Some people go where the money is. Like Forrest Gump and the Ping Pong paddle.
The one gun I keep that is constantly on the chopping block is my P226.
Yet for years I heard people say how great it is.
If nothing else I like the fact that CZ appears open to evolving platforms that competent shooters want. The p10 pretty much has everything we've all wanted in compact sidearm no?
CZ has a devoted following here, and the generally accepted reputation as utterly reliable, superbly accurate, and a great service pistol.
^ ^ ^ THIS ^ ^ ^ ... add me to that list! CZ75B owner since '97, 1,000 rounds downrange and 0 breakages and I can't recall if I ever had a failure to feed or extract, so I'm going to claim it hasn't.
Further, I bought one of the 1st Kadet 22LR kits w/ target sights and diamond-hone fitted it to my frame and in bullseye shooting indoors, I'll shoot scores w/in 5-points or so of my highly customized S&W m41 target pistol.
CZ pistols have always been accurate, reliable, and ergonomic... along with carrying good capacity and at an excellent price.
SMEs who are SMEs and can evaluate new equipment with an open mind have always known this.
Lots of folks just repeat the same BS they heard, and we still suffer from this as a forum.
Pistol Discussion also tends to lag behind AR discussion and Rifle Discussion in general in terms of quality.
Probably there is some other forum out there on the vast interwebs where they have always recognized the excellence of CZ pistols but are only just now understanding that "Stick to the Ayyy, Beeeee, Ceeeees, son! Armalite! Bushmaster! Colt!" is the same exact nonsense.
If you pick up and actually read one of those relics called a book many folks might be shocked to read even someone like Jeff Cooper gave the weapon very high marks in the olden days when the weapon had to be bought in Europe (perhaps thru a military rod and gun club in US Army Europe - Germany). Hoops were many because the source was a Warsaw Pact nation, but the CZ-75 was complimented for its fit, finish, and function marks.
Tanfoglio of Italy cloned the weapon and thousands came into the US via Springfield Armory and EAA.
I bought my first about 1989. Thought I would go after DA/SA with a P01, but couldn't get over the gritty DA pull. I have a preB and a nonB that have glass like DA pulls and of course they are reliable and accurate.
On the critical side: the trigger system with its natural staging of the hooks by design, and grit in execution is lackluster in feel. My SP 2022 has a better OTB feel than any CZ I've ever picked up. So, refined triggers in STD models, OTB, they do not have. Shootable YES. Refined, NO. In fact, I like the Tanfoglio triggers better in refinement and the fact that they don't have roll pins in the slide. The Omega addresses some of this OTB. But, they are very shootable.
Their overall design and function are superb, and today there is good CS, as well as an aftermarket. Ten years ago that was not the case. I'm not looking for an SF gun right now, but if I were it would be a P10. It looks like they actually thought that through well.
If nothing else I like the fact that CZ appears open to evolving platforms that competent shooters want. The p10 pretty much has everything we've all wanted in compact sidearm no?
I think it has everything, within reason, that someone who wants, a striker fired, polymer pistol wants. For us that don't want that, their metal framed, hammer fired pistols are available.
KalashniKEV
01-12-17, 17:51
If you pick up and actually read one of those relics called a book many folks might be shocked to read even someone like Jeff Cooper gave the weapon very high marks...
I knew we'd eventually get there.
Jeff Cooper also thought it was a good idea to strap a pistol scope on a bolt action rifle and go walk around on the battlefield...
Moose-Knuckle
01-14-17, 03:33
I think it has a lot to do with Mike Pannone's use of CZ pistols too.
Yup. Combine that with Cooper's fondness of them and you can see the influence on consumers.
Back when I was 21 and working for an FFL I was torn between the P-01 and the G19. I settled on the G19, since I am of the mind set of consolidation I never picked up a CZ and probably never will.
Damn fine pistolas those CZ's, the P-01 fit me like the proverbial glove.
I knew we'd eventually get there.
Jeff Cooper also thought it was a good idea to strap a pistol scope on a bolt action rifle and go walk around on the battlefield...
True. In reality I think the Aimpoint, EO, and RMR replaced the forward-mounted scope (at least on the AR/M4).
I don't know that I've ever spoken to anyone who's actually said "I purchased X firearm because John Doe uses it." Anyone who needs a fighting, carry, or competition pistol knows what to look for in a handgun as far as ergonomics, reliability, support, etc. I suppose you might get some stragglers that are inexperienced in firearms that saw a video on YouTube, but they're a lot more likely to say "MAC/hickok45/etc. seemed to like this thing" rather than a they bought it because a relatively obscure (to the public) figure like Pannone or Cooper utilized it.
Moose-Knuckle
01-15-17, 02:06
Anyone who needs a fighting, carry, or competition pistol knows what to look for in a handgun as far as ergonomics, reliability, support, etc.
I don't agree with this sentiment at all. There is a lot of bad info out their, M4C is rare compared to other gun forums. Other forums view M4C as a bunch of snobs and elitists.
Just look how popular shit like the Taurus Judge is among the firearm community.
I would venture to say most people have never heard of Mike Pannone. Last year at SHOT LAV wanted to do a piece on Ruger's new striker fired pistol and the rep didn't even know who he was.
I think highly enough of CZs that I have a couple of the second generation P-07s and I carry one AIWB often.
With that being said, I'll hold off on buying the P-10c until it has been on the market for a couple years. I do enough beta testing at work.
Been a CZ fan for the last 15 years.Own 2 pistols,3 rifles and 1 shotgun.Quality product IMHO..
I don't agree with this sentiment at all. There is a lot of bad info out their, M4C is rare compared to other gun forums. Other forums view M4C as a bunch of snobs and elitists.
Truth. If you ever think most of the firearm community knows what they're talking about, join a FB gun group. I'm a member of a group called GLOCK NATION on FB and some of the stuff posted on there is shocking.
Not suprising though, considering its a FB gun group called GLOCK NATION. There are a few knowledgeable folks on there though.
I don't agree with this sentiment at all. There is a lot of bad info out their, M4C is rare compared to other gun forums. Other forums view M4C as a bunch of snobs and elitists.
Just look how popular shit like the Taurus Judge is among the firearm community.
I would venture to say most people have never heard of Mike Pannone. Last year at SHOT LAV wanted to do a piece on Ruger's new striker fired pistol and the rep didn't even know who he was.
Agreed.
Go on another forum and ask about any other firearm. 98% will be positive reviews. Doesn't matter what it is the answer is always ...Looks good ...And .....I had one for X years and it never failed. Doesn't matter that years of ownership and use are two different things
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The CZ kool-aid is very strong and sweet.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170119/20279afe4d5ec235ffa414970a498894.jpg
I'm strongly considering a Tac Sport .40 for USPSA right now. Is there some reason they just went up a couple hundred bucks in market price and got really darn scarce the last month or so? Or have there never really been a lot of TS's out there?
I'm strongly considering a Tac Sport .40 for USPSA right now. Is there some reason they just went up a couple hundred bucks in market price and got really darn scarce the last month or so? Or have there never really been a lot of TS's out there?
Guns go up every January it seems. Cz customs is making their own frames and slides now so look for cool things coming out soon.
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