View Full Version : VCAS, padded or not? And why?
Hello, everyone!
I've been using GI and hunting type slings all my life but now have reached the conclusion that I need something on my carbine that adjusts more quickly. After some research I now think that Blue Force Gear Vickers Combat Applications Sling (VCAS) is the way to go for me.
Only one question remains: padded or not?
I think padded would be more comfortable, but are there any drawbacks with it?
Please share your experiences, if you have any.
Thanks!
ak
spamsammich
09-18-08, 01:28
padded is WAY more comfortable, the only drawback is it is too long for small guys like me.
I just received a padded model at my dept. to T&E. It's too long for a 6920 using the stock side sling mount on the barrel, and a CTR stock. As it won't sung up to the body tight enough for hands on type applications.
When taking to Ashley about it, they do offer a shorter version..........just for info.
Overall, I would recommend the padded version........I've tried both.
When I pack a rifle, it's usually for hours.
I just received a padded model at my dept. to T&E. It's too long for a 6920 using the stock side sling mount on the barrel, and a CTR stock. As it won't sung up to the body tight enough for hands on type applications.
It would be nice to be able to have it snug. And I was even thinking about a fastex buckle at the rear to add the ability to switch between different weapons with different kind of attachment points. Well, I can do with out it if necessary.
Would it be possible for you to measure the overall length of the sling while it's in the shortest position? I can then adjust my GI-sling accordingly and try it on for size. I'm about 5'11", medium build.
Thanks!
ak
Sorry, but I already packaged it, and shipped it back.
To give an idea, we have someone your size in our dept., and even with his vest on, he couldn't get it cinched up snug enough.
I'm 6-2 205 with a 43" chest and with my vest on, and with all the excess taken up, I couldn't get it snug enough.
When I get the shorter version, will let you know about it.
I also obtained a VTAC for T&E, and it cinches snug on everyone.
Padded is great, but it is way too long as others have said.
padded is WAY more comfortable, the only drawback is it is too long for small guys like me.
Exactly how small are you? I'm 5-07 and about 153 lbs. I obviously don't want too long of a sling.
I'm 5'06" / 150lbs. The padded version is a longer than the standard VCAS. But if you sinch down the middle section of the sling as much as possible, the lenght is not a problem.
From my understanding Blue Force Gear is shortening the length of the pad on the padded version by a few inches.
In this thread I wrote why I prefer the padded VCAS and you can see pics as to how short I have the middle section of the sling:
I was talking to Ashley Burnsed at Blue Force Gear a year or so ago about something unrelated and he asked what I thought of a padded version of his VCAS sling:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12270&highlight=padded+VCAS
At the time I told him it was unneeded.
A few months ago I tried one and I simply didn't know what I didn't know. I was so impressed with the padded version that I'm in the process of changing ALL of my VCAS slings over to the padded version.
The padded portion of the sling won't chaff exposed skin, it slides over gear more easily (not that I ever had a problem with the standard VCAS, but the padded version slides over gear more easliy), no buckles on the portion of the sling that goes over your shoulder and around your back, etc.
Both the padded and un-padded VCAS slings are awesome, but for me after trying both, I much prefer the padded version.
Pics of my using the padded version in Pat Rogers class last weekend are posted on page 52 in the "AR Picture Thread" that is tacked at the top of this section.
I ran the padded VCAS sling in Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) 3 day carbine operators course earlier this year, and had no issues relating to the length of the sling:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15210
I've been running the VCAS sling for about 2.5 years. My preference is for the padded version, but you can't go wrong with either version.
S/F,
Jeff
I'm 5'06" / 150lbs. The padded version is a longer than the standard VCAS. But if you sinch down the middle section of the sling as much as possible, the lenght is not a problem.
I am 5'11" and 175, and I find it too long. When you adjusted the bottom of the of the upper loop to shorten it, what did you do with the long floppy tail that resulted?
I am 5'11" and 175, and I find it too long. When you adjusted the bottom of the of the upper loop to shorten it, what did you do with the long floppy tail that resulted?
Cut it off. Look at the pics in the links I posted above.
There is no doubt that the padded VCAS is longer than the standard version, and my carbine does hang a little lower than it did with the standard version, but I have had no issues with it. And when wearing armor the extra length is a non issue.
S/F,
Jeff
Cut it off.
Of course, but I have been reluctant to do so as I keep hoping to find another less perminant solution that would allow me to shorten it now without the floppy tail, but still be able to have it longer in the future if I ever needed it that way. But I just don't see how that can happen with the current design. I was hoping you might have figured it out.
Padded VCAS with upper loop adjusted to shortest length equals 13.75" floppy tail:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk16/austin12gauge/VCAS002.jpg
Current solution - floppy tail folded over double and retained with a velcro strap from my underwater gear:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk16/austin12gauge/VCAS005.jpg
I have 4 of the original VCAS, 1 Victory edition, and 1 padded.
The padded is the one to get.
BFG makes them long on purpose. A large guy wearing armor and a lot of kit needs a longer sling.
If you never wear anything, and you're slender, you don't all the extra material. Cut it and singe it.
If you're undecided, lay the excess parallel to the padded section and secure it with some 100 mph tape, until you decide what you want to do.
If you carry a rifle on you more than 1 hr, the benefits of the padded sling become obvious, and it sells itself.
I will be selling all my non-padded VCAS slings to upgrade to the padded version.
It's that good.
Padded is the only way to fly.
For those of you finding the sling too long, it is really a matter of how you have it configured. Connecting the sling at the two opposite ends of the weapons generally does not work well. Mounting the sling on a receiver plate basically fixes this issue.
C4
BFG makes them long on purpose. A large guy wearing armor and a lot of kit needs a longer sling. If you never wear anything, and you're slender, you don't all the extra material.
Yep, that is me.
Padded is the only way to fly.
Agree +1
Mounting the sling on a receiver plate basically fixes this issue.
Nope, not for me. Mine is mounted to the QD socket at the rear of a DD Omega and to the QD socket in a DD upper receiver endplate.
The sling is great, but it is too long for me. But I am not going to cut a $70 sling. I would rather keep the extra and secure it as I posted a picture above as I might need the extra someday, just not now.
Yep, that is me.
Agree +1
Nope, not for me. Mine is mounted to the QD socket at the rear of a DD Omega and to the QD socket in a DD upper receiver endplate.
The sling is great, but it is too long for me. But I am not going to cut a $70 sling. I would rather keep the extra and secure it as I posted a picture above as I might need the extra someday, just not now.
This is the setup I run and have no issues. I am 6ft 190lbs. So unless you are the size of a school girl, you have configured the sling wrong and or are trying to make it too tight. Remember that you want the sling to position the buttstock about 1-2 fists below your chin (with the stock fully extended). You also want the weapon to be several fists away from your body (if you pulled the weapon straight out).
Take a pic of your setup so I can see if something is not setup correctly.
C4
spamsammich
09-18-08, 13:39
Padded is the only way to fly.
For those of you finding the sling too long, it is really a matter of how you have it configured. Connecting the sling at the two opposite ends of the weapons generally does not work well. Mounting the sling on a receiver plate basically fixes this issue.
C4
I have to admit, I haven't moved my padded sling over to my 14.5" carbine yet so I haven't had a chance to test the RE endplate point. I have the sling as short as it can be and won't cut the excess, I'll just velcro it up as suggested. It is SO much more comfortable on my middy compared to my non padded VCAS. I'm sure I'll like it in the new QD position.
This is the setup I run and have no issues. I am 6ft 190lbs. So unless you are the size of a school girl, you have configured the sling wrong and or are trying to make it too tight. Remember that you want the sling to position the buttstock about 1-2 fists below your chin (with the stock fully extended). You also want the weapon to be several fists away from your body (if you pulled the weapon straight out).
Take a pic of your setup so I can see if something is not setup correctly.
C4
This is good to know Grant, thanks. I just checked mine and it is GTG. I just setup a Cobra version last night on my Carbine and I ended up cutting about 7" off it and I am 6'3" 200lb.
Take a pic of your setup so I can see if something is not setup correctly.
No offense, but like what? The QD sockets in the DD Omega and the DD endplate are pretty straight forward.
The reason I want it short is to be able to snug it up against me when I am doing other things with my hands so it doesn't move around. In normal ready or running and gunning I make it longer with the quick adjust in the bottom loop so it operates as you described.
And just what is wrong with a school girl, anyway? Some of my best memories are of school girls! :D
I guess how tight one can get/want the sling, depends on your application with the rifle.
In LE where you may have to go hands on, the several fists away from the body is unacceptable for street use. One must be able to snug it up so there's very little play, when taking control of a subject such as cuffing etc.
On the VCAS padded I received, it's attached to the standard 6920 side sling mount on the barrel, and to the CTR stock. If one attaches it to the end plate, then pulls it tight, the rifle will ride up, with the butt being level with your face...........again unacceptable for LE street use.
I'm 6-2 205, and when wearing a vest, having all 3 adjustments taken up to their fullest, one can not get the rifle to snug up tight to the body.
Grant, nothing against you're suggestion of how to adjust the sling, for general range use etc., yep it's the way to go........and the VCAS padded I sling I got would work. But for LE street use, it would not.
No offense, but like what? The QD sockets in the DD Omega and the DD endplate are pretty straight forward.
The reason I want it short is to be able to snug it up against me when I am doing other things with my hands so it doesn't move around. In normal ready or running and gunning I make it longer with the quick adjust in the bottom loop so it operates as you described.
And just what is wrong with a school girl, anyway? Some of my best memories are of school girls! :D
Could be almost anything. The slack between the buckles, wanting the weapon too tight to the body, etc.
You also have to remember that the pull tab on the sling is NOT made to to take slack out of the sling! It is only made to GIVE slack so that you can shoot offhand. If the sling is configured properly, the tab is ALL the way forward.
See pic below for proper sling configuration. You should be able to shoot the weapon with the tab forward (as seen in pic).
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/Padded_PB_Black.jpg
I'm 5'7" 140 lbs, and I think the unpadded BFG VCAS is long. It's not really an issue with the unpadded BFB VCAS since I can pretty much adjust the rear straps short enough to pit me.
I included the padded VCAS in my next order to Grant and now I think that I should go try it on first. A friend of mine has one and I think I'll try it on to see how it fits compared to my standard VCAS.
I guess how tight one can get/want the sling, depends on your application with the rifle.
In LE where you may have to go hands on, the several fists away from the body is unacceptable for street use. One must be able to snug it up so there's very little play, when taking control of a subject such as cuffing etc.
If the sling is on a combat/defensive weapon, it needs to be loose. Reason? So that in a gun grab situation, you can get out of the weapon so that you are not tossed all over the place with your own gun. If you need the weapon out of the way, you throw it behind you.
Having a sling tight to your body in a wrestling match will NOT do you any favors.
On the VCAS padded I received, it's attached to the standard 6920 side sling mount on the barrel, and to the CTR stock. If one attaches it to the end plate, then pulls it tight, the rifle will ride up, with the butt being level with your face...........again unacceptable for LE street use.
Sling attached to the stock is a no go as you will strangle yourself when shooting offhand. This is why the receiver plate mount is king.
I'm 6-2 205, and when wearing a vest, having all 3 adjustments taken up to their fullest, one can not get the rifle to snug up tight to the body.
Grant, nothing against you're suggestion of how to adjust the sling, for general range use etc., yep it's the way to go........and the VCAS padded I sling I got would work. But for LE street use, it would not.
Weapon should never be that tight. The tab needs to be all the way forward. This would fix all your problems.
C4
I included the padded VCAS in my next order to Grant and now I think that I should go try it on first. A friend of mine has one and I think I'll try it on to see how it fits compared to my standard VCAS.
No, get it anyway. I am not big, do not wear a tac vest or body armour and in Texas I pretty much shoot in a t-shirt all year; therefore, I don't need the sling to be as long as it is.
But if I was up north, or in BDU, or both, I would probably want some or all of what is now excess to me. That is why I haven't cut the tail off. Who knows, I might want it someday. It is easy enough to secure out of the way. I was just inquiring to see if there was a better way of securing the tail than what I was already doing. So far, I like my way better than tape as it is easy to undo if needed.
Really, it is a great sling - get it. But be aware that BFG is now making a version that is 3" shorter than the original. I am not sure which is which for ordering purposes. Perhaps it is even just a customer service offer only for those who think the original is too long.
Grant, I am doing what you said - I only use the adjust tab to put slack in the sling, or return it to my base agjustment after I have put slack in it. My set up is very nearly like yours (different components) but you have more slack in your upper padded loop than I do.
Here are some pics of how loose your sling needs to be.
C4
Notice the tab is all the way forward
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/Proper_Vickers_Setup.jpg
Notice the stock is extended
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/Proper_Vickers_Setup1.jpg
Folks, it is VERY routine to cut the excess material on both VCAS and VTAC slings once they are properly fitted--they are made to do this!
Grant--for certain uses, it is important to be able to cinch the weapon tighter than shown in your pictures.
We used to use receiver plates, but have gone back to using end of the adj stock--both work fine; front is attached just forward of the delta ring.
Grant, my set up: http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk16/austin12gauge/VCAS007.jpg
Edited to add: BTW, everything you see in the picture came from Grant, except for the N4 Light Basic Carbine as it came from John.
Folks, it is VERY routine to cut the excess material on both VCAS and VTAC slings once they are properly fitted--they are made to do this!
Grant--for certain uses, it is important to be able to cinch the weapon tighter than shown in your pictures.
We used to use receiver plates, but have gone back to using end of the adj stock--both work fine; front is attached just forward of the delta ring.
Maybe so, but putting the weapon behind your back would also serve the purpose. For the majority of the shooting populace, the sling as setup in the pic is the proper way to set it up (slack wise).
Transitioning to your offhand with the sling attached to the stock creates a choke hold and basically requires you to drop your shoulder from out the sling (as you know). While it is a work around, it is not optimal.
C4
Grant, my set up: http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk16/austin12gauge/VCAS007.jpg
Edited to add: BTW, everything you see in the picture came from Grant, except for the N4 Light Basic Carbine as it came from John.
Everything looks good so my guess is that you just do not have enough slack in the weapon.
C4
I never mentioned "a wrestling match", don't put words in my mouth. But the weapon must be contained and snug when controlling subjects, cuffing, escorting etc. The same for climbing ladders etc. Simply throwing it behind you is not good enough.
I have put the tab all the way forward, all the adjustments are snugged as far as they can go, and it's still loose.
So what you're saying, is have the tab forward and never mess with it?
If that's the case, then the tab and the adjustment part of the sling is useless.
If you watch the video with Kyle Lamb demonstrating the VTAC, it's made not only to aid in shooting offhand, but also made to snug close to keep the weapon stable during different phys. activity.
I figured the VCAS was to be used the same way. I guess there's another difference in the slings.
I'm not knocking the VCAS, just stating what I'm experiencing and what my needs are. The problem with the VCAS, there's no instructions with it. They should include some, so there's no mistake on how it's to be mounted and used.
You have to pick your poison I guess. What is more important, being able to get out of the weapon when you are being thrown about like a rag doll or performing adminstrative tasks. It is your call as too what you find more important.
The tab remains forward until you need to shoot offhand. Then you pull the tab back to under your arm pit. This creates the slack you need to switch shoulders.
The VTAC sling is lacking in a good many areas (making it useless).
Instructions on how top properly adjust the Vickers sling is found on BFG's website: http://www.blueforcegear.com/pdf/INSTRUCTIONS_VICKERS_SLING.pdf
C4
Padded VCAS with upper loop adjusted to shortest length equals 13.75" floppy tail:
Could you also be so kind as to measure the overall length of the sling at it's shortest? Thanks! :) The Velcro strip for the folded excess is a good idea. I might have tried a 1"-2" section of bicycle tire inner tube?
The reason I want it short is to be able to snug it up against me when I am doing other things with my hands so it doesn't move around. In normal ready or running and gunning I make it longer with the quick adjust in the bottom loop so it operates as you described.
This is exactly what I was thinking also. I need it snug against the torso and not swinging around. When shooting starts, I can lengthen the sling with the pull tab.
Since you and are I about the same size, how can the sling work for me and not you?? This is why I can say that there is no issue with the sling itself.
Because you both have different needs? :rolleyes:
If I have my 16" carbine stock extended one fist width down from my chin (as in your picture) I guess the flash hider swings at knee level? Add to that the sound suppressor. Then bend knees a bit for a reason or another. See where this is going? I don't know about you, but I don't like sand and pine needles in my suppressor.
I need the weapon to ride higher. I will be carrying it with the CTR in the shortest possible setting and would like the butt plate to be on my shoulder. And the rifle snugly diagonally across my torso. Also, I would like to attach the sling with a pushbutton swivel to the hole on the CTR. The front goes on either end of the railed FF hand guard. I'm 5'11" and 205 lbs.
Are you saying that the padded BFG VCAS is the wrong sling for my needs? Damn, and I thought I had this already figured out...
The chance of me getting in to a wrestling match etc. with the rifle on my chest is minimal. The need to use my hands and maybe get in to a kneeling position is very likely to arise. If the sling is too long, it won't stay on my back either (BTDT).
The comparison wichaka made about the one point sling is very good.
Of course, if I were in a hot combat situation the needs might be different. Luckily, I'm not at the moment. In my current situations I have ample time to recognize the need for the rifle and then apply it. I don't wear armor at all, and tac vests only occasionally, sometimes a camelback or a small backpack. Most of my carrying and shooting is done wearing just a t-shirt or a jacket.
The reason why BFG is removing a couple inches from the sling is to do away with people not being able to configure it properly.
And you see this as a bad thing? What ever happened to the old adage "customer is always right"? :) If people want to buy it shorter, why not make it shorter?
ak
PS. And regarding to the quote that "the sling is NOT a shooting aid" I will only say that on certain situations this might apply but on some others, it can be quite effectively used to give more support and balance and thus help in aiming and in recoil control, but I have no intention to open this can of worms...
Everything looks good so my guess is that you just do not have enough slack in the weapon.
I do when I put some slack in it using the lower loop adjustment, which is how it use it at the ready or running and gunning. That is the difference between the way we run out slings. I want the minimum length to snug up to my body. You don't. YMMV - MMMV.
Could you also be so kind as to measure the overall length of the sling at it's shortest? Thanks!
Your welcome. It is 45" from the middle of the QD stud at each end..
The VCAS is a great sling and I would buy it again. I am sorry I asked the question that seems to have started this. I am the one not willing to cut off the excess upper loop tail. My choice. YMMV.
Needs vary, as do sling adjustments.
As far as rifle combatives, unless you have been involved in it, I'll abstain from commenting aside from noting that its different than what you might have read in a book. My experiences have resulted in people going to the nearest trauma center.
I do when I put some slack in it using the lower loop adjustment, which is how it use it at the ready or running and gunning. That is the difference between the way we run out slings. I want the minimum length to snug up to my body. You don't. YMMV - MMMV.
Some things to consider. When moving (running, jumping, etc), the weapon is always in your hand. One of the few times the weapon would NOT be in your hand is if you had transitioned to your secondary weapon. In this case the weapon should be pushed to your side (which keeps it from hitting anyting important and keeps it out of the way). You can move and shoot easlily in this manner.
So the 10,000 dollar question is, what are you (or anyone) doing that they A. do not have ahold of their weapon and B. need to have it so tight against their body that it does not move???
I have been through more carbine schools than I can count and have NEVER found a reason to have the weapon snug against my body. I have found countless reason to have it loose though.
So educate me, I am all ears to learn something new here.
C4
Needs vary, as do sling adjustments.
As far as rifle combatives, unless you have been involved in it, I'll abstain from commenting aside from noting that its different than what you might have read in a book. My experiences have resulted in people going to the nearest trauma center.
Agree. When you do not have the chance to run your weapon in combat, you have to take knowledge from people that have. This is why I said that I draw my gear configuration and manipulation from people like Vickers and Hackathorn. If they do not know how to do it, then no one does.
C4
Your welcome. It is 45" from the middle of the QD stud at each end..
The VCAS is a great sling and I would buy it again. I am sorry I asked the question that seems to have started this. I am the one not willing to cut off the excess upper loop tail. My choice. YMMV.
Your question is fine and has provided a chance to correct some issues with gear configuration (thanks).
C4
This is why I said that I draw my gear configuration and manipulation from people like Vickers and Hackathorn. If they do not know how to do it, then no one does.
My sling operates very much like the picures you posted at 2:59 today. Maybe the problem is the defination of the word snug. It is just a little closer to my body in the first picture, but the chin picture is nearly the same.
I am not in combat, I am not LEO, I am not doing warrants or MJ busts, I am just a civilian in Texas who likes the sling but was trying to figure out if there was a better way to control the floppy tail that results from adjusting for my body and not yours.
Larry Vickers
09-18-08, 19:38
Gents
Ashley and I welcome any feedback about length of pad, length of sling, etc. - frankly that is how we got the sling dialed in from the start - and we want to hear your professional contructive criticism to make the sling better
It is a challenge to make the sling adjustable to a wide range of users - almost always there is somebody left out (too big or too small) - but we will strive to answer the mail the best we know how
Yes the sling is left long so it can be trimmed and burned - I understand if some users don't want to do that based on price and adaptability to other weapons
Drop me a line or Ashley at Blue Force Gear with your input - we will take it into account and see if we can tweak it even more
Lastly let me thank everyone for the support of the sling in general - it is a runaway success , beyond our wildest dreams, and I am personally satisfied that so many end users are happy with it
be safe
LAV
Larry.
Any idea on ETA for the shorter padded version?
Actually you are incorrect. I know Jay and his needs are the same as mine (combat shooting).
I thought he had to pick up weeds too and cuff his "customers" etc. Maybe I got people mixed up, sorry.
I think you are mistaken. The weapon does not hang that low with the stock extended.
Had to test it: the FH is located just above my knee if the rifle is vertical in that position.
Also, when transitioning to a pistol, you guide the weapon so that it is on your left side (if you are a right handed shooter). It does not hit your knees.
As someone has taken countelss carbine schools, what you just said, never happens.
With this I have no argument, I'm not worried about it hitting my knees when I'm standing - whether I'm transitioning to a sidearm or not. I'm worried about the FH or even more the suppressor hitting the ground when croutching/kneeling with hands holding something else than the rifle. Or just banging and swinging around when I'm doing something else.
Why? Why do you need the weapon to ride higher? The easiest way to make the weapon ride higher it to attach the sling to a receiver plate and get it off the stock. That will make it ride higher.
To have more "ground clearance" as stated above. The receiver plate attachment might be something worth considering. I was just fixed on using the hole already on the stock.
Let's talk about stock position. With the stock full collapsed, it is MUCH harder to clear a malfunction (quickly) than when the stock is out. This is because your arm is too compacted, creating a poor angle for you to fully extend the charging handle. This is why running the stock fully extended or one click in is more optimal.
Yes, I intend to do the shooting with the stock fully open. Only carry it collapsed. As I stated, when carrying, I'm not in a deadly hurry to apply it. Should there come a time and a place for me where more haste is required, then I can adjust and carry it more loosely to suit that. Thats the way I carried the AK (Sako, actually) with the GI-type sling back in the days.
Not in the least. What I am saying is that a lot people do not know how to configure their sling or weapons properly. This is generally due to a lack of proper training.
While I can't boast with a lot of big $$$ tactical course attendance (one year service in .mil and afterwards 10 years of ipsc and a more "tac applied" version of it) I do have to say that "to each his own". I mean that I'm not disputing the carry method you have been describing to work in combat situation, but that there are other situations as well and it would be nice if the sling would fit these also.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best. If the weapon will be used in a defensive manner, the chance is always there and for certain out weighs the reason that you need the weapon tight against your body.
I see these things in another proportion. To me, at the moment, the out-of-the-blue appearing defensive need is virtually nonexistent if I have the rifle on my chest.
Somone kicks in your door in the middle of the night. How much time do you have to see the threat coming? Not much.
First of all, the door is very sturdy and opens outside - can't be kicked in. :) Of course it can be pryed open with proper tools in a very short time. If it's the fire brigade or the police coming in, they usually knock first. And even if they don't knock, I still don't want to be pointing my gun at them. And because it sits in the safe, I wouldn't have time to get it anyway. Regarding criminals, violent home invasion etc. that kind of crime is nonexistent here. Did I mention I live in Finland? :)
Of course, civilisation is said to be only three meals away from collapse and things and societies can change. As witnessed in South America, economical failure of the society brings out the worst in people.
As of right now, the customer cannot buy the sling in a shorter config. This will change shortly though.
To me this makes perfect sense. If the padded sling is perceived by many people to be too long in it's shortest position, the logical step would be to shorten it. While the shortest position suits the "abusers" (who are also paying customers) the enlightened can still wear it properly (for their needs) by just merely adjusting it to be longer. Everybody wins?
Sure, but the Vickers sling was never designed to be a shooting aid.
C4
No dispute there either, I was just countering a quote given maybe too generally. Some might take it as splitting hair :)
ak
My sling operates very much like the picures you posted at 2:59 today. Maybe the problem is the defination of the word snug. It is just a little closer to my body in the first picture, but the chin picture is nearly the same.
I am not in combat, I am not LEO, I am not doing warrants or MJ busts, I am just a civilian in Texas who likes the sling but was trying to figure out if there was a better way to control the floppy tail that results from adjusting for my body and not yours.
Understand. What you are after though is the proper configuration of your sling that allows you to retain your weapon.
If what you are goind fits your needs, than stay with it.
C4
Larry.
Any idea on ETA for the shorter padded version?
I talked to Ashley a day or so ago, he told me he was shipping one out to me...............so my guess is that they are ready, or I'm getting one out of the gate a bit early.
I talked to Ashley a day or so ago, he told me he was shipping one out to me...............so my guess is that they are ready, or I'm getting one out of the gate a bit early.
They have not shipped to dealers yet.
C4
GLOCKMASTER
09-18-08, 20:50
The VTAC sling is lacking in a good many areas (making it useless).
C4
Care to elaborate?
It is als made out of the cheapest materials available.
C4
Strongly disagree with you on this statement. I have been running several VTAC slings for a couple of years now and find them to be quite durable and holding up very well.
Also I have taken many patrol rifle classes, to include instructor level, where weapon retention with the rifle is taught. Funny thing is I have never been taught to give up my rifle and besides it's just not an option. There are many rifle retention techniques available which prevent you from getting your ass handed to you. I just do not see the logic of giving up the rifle, especially when it can used against others.
IrishDevil
09-18-08, 20:51
I think one problem is that people aren't understanding that the adjustment in the VCAS is for off-hand shooting, nothing else. The way LAV showed me to use it, is the way Grant illustrated. He also said that you could use the adjustment to lengthen it for short-term needs that arise. The way I attach the VCAS is the same as Grants, the padded works fine for me at 5'9" and 170. I'm using the version with sewn-in QD's, and all of my VCAS slings have came with instructions. Oh, and the padded is the only way to fly.
Care to elaborate?
Yes. The sling materials are of a very quality. The buckle on the sling is off a cheap rucksack. Some of the slings are also not made in the US.
Strongly disagree with you on this statement. I have been running several VTAC slings for a couple of years now and find them to be quite durable and holding up very well.
What other slings have you used? Do you know what a cheap sling looks like?
Also I have taken many patrol rifle classes, to include instructor level, where weapon retention with the rifle is taught. Funny thing is I have never been taught to give up my rifle and besides it's just not an option. There are many rifle retention techniques available which prevent you from getting your ass handed to you. I just do not see the logic of giving up the rifle, especially when it can used against others.
You can retain a weapon to a certain point. The minute you are losing the fight and are being tossed around with it, you have to go to plan "B".
If someone has their hands on your gun, it can used against you (no matter if it is still attached to you or not). Once you are off balance, your sling is basically used as leverage and you can no longer fight in this manner. This is when you get rid of the weapon and transition to your secondary weapon.
Keep in mind that we are NOT talking about a pistol (sidearm) retention. You NEVER give us this weapon. We are STRICTLY talking about a long gun (AR).
C4
I think one problem is that people aren't understanding that the adjustment in the VCAS is for off-hand shooting, nothing else. The way LAV showed me to use it, is the way Grant illustrated. He also said that you could use the adjustment to lengthen it for short-term needs that arise. The way I attach the VCAS is the same as Grants, the padded works fine for me at 5'9" and 170. I'm using the version with sewn-in QD's, and all of my VCAS slings have came with instructions. Oh, and the padded is the only way to fly.
You are correct Sir. So you are 5"9 and 170lbs. How can the sling work for you? Oh wait, you must have it configured correctly. :D
C4
GLOCKMASTER
09-18-08, 21:45
Yes. The sling materials are of a very quality. The buckle on the sling is off a cheap rucksack. Some of the slings are also not made in the US.
What other slings have you used? Do you know what a cheap sling looks like?
You can retain a weapon to a certain point. The minute you are losing the fight and are being tossed around with it, you have to go to plan "B".
If someone has their hands on your gun, it can used against you (no matter if it is still attached to you or not). Once you are off balance, your sling is basically used as leverage and you can no longer fight in this manner. This is when you get rid of the weapon and transition to your secondary weapon.
Keep in mind that we are NOT talking about a pistol (sidearm) retention. You NEVER give us this weapon. We are STRICTLY talking about a long gun (AR).
C4
Yes Grant I know what a cheap sling looks and feels like. I spent four years in the Marine Corps and I have over twenty years as a state LEO. Because of my current position I have people sending me stuff constantly, so I have used many other slings.So yes I know a cheap sling when I get my hands on it.
I have a Vickers sling on a SIG 551 and a Victory sling on a fighting shotgun. Ashley sent me these last year after a we attended a Pat Rogers class together. These are good slings.
The only version of the VTAC that is made OCONUC is the 511 version. I will say that one is made of a cheaper material and is not as durable as the ones made here. I have talked with Kyle face to face about this issue. I find that the VTAC slings sold by Brownell's, Bravo Company and LaRue to be of outstanding quality and very durable. We just put 22 VTAC slings on patrol rifles and put them through a three day rifle course. They all held up and did not have the first problem with them. I also have several of the VTAC slings on personal rifles and I have never had a problem with one.
Back to the weapon retention.
I just do not see the need in getting rid of the long gun. If I have the energy and opportunity to put my hands over my head to give it up (which is what you suggested), I should be able to draw my secondary (pistol or knife). That is my plan "B". I worked the road for a little over 18 years prior to being transferred to my current position. One of those positions was one of the most dangerous ones a member from my department can work. So I know about having a plan "B" as I have needed plan "B" on an occasion or three.
Over the years I have been taught by some of the best full time SWAT folks around and giving the long gun up has never been taught nor given as an option.
YMMV depending on your real world experience.
Yes Grant I know what a cheap sling looks and feels like. I spent four years in the Marine Corps and I have over twenty years as a state LEO. Because of my current position I have people sending me stuff constantly, so I have used many other slings.So yes I know a cheap sling when I get my hands on it.
Well good, then you should be able to identify that the materials in the Viking sling pale in comparison to the BFG sling.
We did a contract with a USAF Para Rescue squadron. They ordered the Viking sling. They used it for a deployment and said that they fell apart and then promptly ordered the BFG Vickers slings. To date, they are still happy with the Vickers slings.
Back to the weapon retention.
I just do not see the need in getting rid of the long gun. If I have the energy and opportunity to put my hands over my head to give it up (which is what you suggested), I should be able to draw my secondary (pistol or knife). That is my plan "B". I worked the road for a little over 18 years prior to being transferred to my current position. One of those positions was one of the most dangerous ones a member from my department can work. So I know about having a plan "B" as I have needed plan "B" on an occasion or three.
Over the years I have been taught by some of the best full time SWAT folks around and giving the long gun up has never been taught nor given as an option.
YMMV depending on your real world experience.
It is easy to twist someone in a sling and make it hard to be able to draw your secondary weapon. I know as I have done it to people. They could NOT get their pistol out of the holster. Of course if you could can get to another weapon and still retain control of your long gun, then great! This just isn't always possible and is what I am specifically talking about here.
I was shown this technique by two full time, large city SWAT officers. Both had used it and found that it worked very well for them.
To be clear, I am NOT advocating that you never try and retain your weapon and or never try to get your secondary into operation. What I a specifically saying is that in some instances you HAVE to get away from you weapon so that you can get to your secondary.
C4
Your welcome. It is 45" from the middle of the QD stud at each end..
Thanks. I tried adjusting a GI-type unpadded sling to this length for testing purposes. The front end was attached to the front of the HG. If the other end is attached near the butt plate, I can shoulder the weapon quite easily. However, if using an attachment point near the receiver end the sling is too short and shouldering the weapon becomes impossible with the stock extended. The weapon rides diagonally but feels a bit too loose when picking something up from the ground etc.
So for my needs it would be nice if the sling could be adjusted a tad shorter. I tried different lengths and even went as short as 35". That was very snug, but of course shouldering the weapon was impossible with that length. Using the receiver end attachment point carrying was ok, but attaching it near the butt plate made carrying uncomfortable,
I'm 5'11" and 205 lbs and the testing was done wearing just a thin shirt.
Conclusion: the 35" is nearly ridiculous, no need to make it that short. It would become uncomfortable with time (on someone with my build). But a few inches shorter than 45" it could be. Then it would be more snug and yet be possible to lengthen with the tab for shouldering. When in a different situation and not "abusing" it, it can be adjusted to be longer in the first place. So the excess will be folded and secured in place, not cut. This is my personal opinion in my own setting, ymmv.
The VCAS is a great sling and I would buy it again. I am sorry I asked the question that seems to have started this. I am the one not willing to cut off the excess upper loop tail. My choice. YMMV.
No problem. As the OP I'm glad this thing came up. Now I know I want the padded version and that I need to wait for the shorter one.
I can't believe there is all this discussion over how to set up a sling. Try it a few different ways and see what works for you. I'm not in LE, so I'm not going to tell someone that is how to run their gear.
I'm 6'-1" and about 175-180 lbs. This is how my padded VCAS is set up (all wrong and shit attached to the rear of the stock). You can see that I haven't trimmed or secured the excess material yet in this picture.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BIB-port.jpg
Two unpadded versions
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Both-01.jpg
Victory version (totally wrong, as it's attached at the front of the handguards, and the rear of the stock :eek: although interestingly that's exactly how the BFG instructions linked to above instruct you to attach it....)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/BCM-Middy-port-side.jpg
AK with BFG sling. Note the incorrect placement of the adjustment strap, and the snap hook that is just waiting to come undone and dump my rifle in the dirt.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2603.jpg
I can't stand the barrel nut and receiver endplate attachment. I find it to be completely useless for my purposes, and yes I've tried it. The gun flops around way too much, and you might as well be using a single point. Which, incidentally, if you're that concerned with support side shooting is really the better answer.http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Colt-6933-Magpul-Larue-2.jpg
Why all the sarcasm? Because this thread has turned stupid. Try as many slings as you can, in as many configurations as you can, and pick what works for you. At the same time, if you're running a GI carry strap as a field-expedient two-point, and doing it well, then more power to ya. :D
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Colt-6450-w-YHM-Can.jpg
Ok, this is getting a bit out of control.
EVERYONE ;) DON'T BE SO CONFRONTATIONAL, MAYBE A MORE INFORMATIVE APPROACH WOULD BE BETTER.
I attach mine to the stock and at the FSB(side sling) or at the end on the rail via a DD swivel cup.
I like to have it loose enough with slider let out so it will enable me to do a high port. Depending on clothing I may be able to transition to off side without dropping the sling out of my arm. This of course enables me to tighten it up for off side carry or cross sling--tightness dictated by environment.
Having the ability to tighten the sling up for carry is important for certain folks. Cross slinging is a useful carry option when you need to do physical task and it's not feasible to have the sling "at your side"
I like the original sling the best as it allows for more options in use and adjustment.
BOTTOM LINE, USE IT HOW YOU WANT IT OR NEED IT TO FUNCTION FOR YOU. I'M NOT SAYING MY WAY IS BEST AND UNLESS YOU HAVE IT RUN AROUND YOUR WAIST AND ATTACHED TO THE TRIGGER, I'M GOOD WITH IT.
I think you guys are plain nuts. I just use some 550 and duct tape and that is only when I feel like it.
I hardly ever use a sling, because this Elite Team Fighter guy on Utube said you shouldn't so you can throw away your weapon when it jams.
Jeeez.
GLOCKMASTER
09-19-08, 13:18
can't believe there is all this discussion over how to set up a sling. Try it a few different ways and see what works for you. I'm not in LE, so I'm not going to tell someone that is how to run their gear.
Exactly, with whatever sling works for you.
Rob BTW nice bang sticks.:D
I think I was trying to make that point about 50 posts ago.........I think.............but can't remember now! :D
Slings can be configured several different ways, which is why there's so many attachment options with end plates, and many attachment choices on the buttstocks, such as Magpuls CTR.
Having the option of snugging up the sling tight, obviously is not for everyone. The point I was trying to make.........ah, I remember now............is that, if it is important to you to have the option to snug it up tight, then the VCAS in it's present form will not work.
I have a shorter version coming.........when it gets here I will post pics and let you y'all know about it.
Or if someone gets theirs first, please beat me to it! :)
Padded is the only way to fly.
For those of you finding the sling too long, it is really a matter of how you have it configured. Connecting the sling at the two opposite ends of the weapons generally does not work well. Mounting the sling on a receiver plate basically fixes this issue.
C4
Grant, I believe I read where you said the ideal sling setup was on a receiver plate on the rear and at the rear of the handguard for the front. What do you suggest for those of us using standard handguards? SUre, I'd like to install a railed handguard, but it's certainly not real high on the list.
Give myself and others like me an idea. Thanks.
Roy
Grant, I believe I read where you said the ideal sling setup was on a receiver plate on the rear and at the rear of the handguard for the front. What do you suggest for those of us using standard handguards? SUre, I'd like to install a railed handguard, but it's certainly not real high on the list.
Give myself and others like me an idea. Thanks.
Roy
Use the same thing Colt does, a barrel mounted side sling swivel. We stock them for $25.
C4
Use the same thing Colt does, a barrel mounted side sling swivel. We stock them for $25.
C4
Oh, I need this for a KISS middy. Is this a Colt prody?
Oh, I need this for a KISS middy. Is this a Colt prody?
Colt doesn't make them. ;)
C4
I think the answer is VCAS. If you need to carry your weapon for extened periods of time go padded, if not then standard VCAS. Simple really.
[Deleted, found answers.]
militarymoron
09-21-08, 13:24
i brought up the subject of the excess loose end on the padded sling to ashley and stephen a while ago and offered a couple of solutions seen below, of which prototypes were made.
the reason i'd rather not cut off the excess is to allow me to transfer it to another weapon that might need the length. i also wanted a cleaner, more convenient method than duck tape.
the first was to use an elastic keeper, which i was already doing. this works well and you just roll up the excess and the keeper retains it.
the other was to sew a small pocket on the outside of the padded portion, which you stuff the rolled up excess into. stephen made the proto for me (which you see below) which works very well to contain the excess. however, it's more involved and they decided it was difficult to do with the tubular webbing used for the pad. the proto was made from multicam cordura.
ultimately, i think the elastic keeper was the solution that they decided on - i'm not sure if it's being implemented just yet. it's simple and it works. the keeper can be slid into the padded portion as well for a shorter sling.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/bfgslings.jpg
i brought up the subject of the excess loose end on the padded sling to ashley and stephen a while ago and offered a couple of solutions seen below, of which prototypes were made. the reason i'd rather not cut off the excess is to allow me to transfer it to another weapon that might need the length. i also wanted a cleaner, more convenient method than duck tape.
Much cleaner than either tape or even my soultion. Both good suggestions!
What kind of mounting options are available for a M16 style rifle with the standard handguards and A2 stock? The standard sling mounts wouldn't seem to work very well. Can that style of rifle be set up like Grant's pictured below without changing the stock/handguards?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/Padded_PB_Black.jpg
What kind of mounting options are available for a M16 style rifle with the standard handguards and A2 stock? The standard sling mounts wouldn't seem to work very well.
Tango Down PR-16A4 (http://tangodown.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=39) will put the sling at the stock/receiver junction.
As to the front, there have been a few different solutions, none that I've liked well enough to try.
What kind of mounting options are available for a M16 style rifle with the standard handguards and A2 stock? The standard sling mounts wouldn't seem to work very well. Can that style of rifle be set up like Grant's pictured below without changing the stock/handguards?
I'm just learning about slings myself, so take this for what it's worth. But as I was looking around over the weekend for adapters to add a sling to my own rifle, I noticed that GG&G (and other companies as well) seem to have adapters specifically geared toward the situation you're talking about, with a fixed stock.
Here's an example of adapters you can use for that scenario:
http://estore.websitepros.com/1891705/Detail.bok?no=973
In talking with Ashley on the phone the other day, he mentioned that I did in fact have one of the new short versions...........guess I got one before anyone else did.
Anyway, we discussed many things about the VCAS and slings in general, and he confirmed that the VCAS was not made to snug up, or originally used as a shooting aid, but then Larry started to do that later.
It's made to hang loose..........but am working with Ashley to make a model that will sung up. Will let you know how things progress.
Wichaka, any chance you'll bring the shorter padded VCAS to the OR/WA shoot on Saturday?
I sent it back, but Ashley is sending it back along with another unpadded model. Hopefully they will get here by then.
But it's 3:20 here, and UPS hasn't shown up yet.
When I get them, I'll contact you and we can meet somewhere and you can try them out.
Does anybody have an idea when the shorter padded sling with the sewn in QD swivels will be available?
3CTactical
11-15-08, 11:25
They already are available, but you have to call Blue Force Gear directly to order them.
Anybody care to post some user experiences regarding the shorter padded sling? Does it snug up well?
Is it so that they are only available directly from BFG, no other retailer has them yet? (I'd like to get some other things as well with my considerable and almost constant overseas postage fees (what a cheap a** customer))
Anybody care to post some user experiences regarding the shorter padded sling? Does it snug up well?
Is it so that they are only available directly from BFG, no other retailer has them yet? (I'd like to get some other things as well with my considerable and almost constant overseas postage fees (what a cheap a** customer))
BFG only makes the shorter version now. The padded section of the original version was 21" and the new version is 18". You should be able to get the shorter version from the dealer. I would have them verify that what they have is the shorter version though. There very well could be dealers that still have the old version in their inventory. I ordered mine direct from BFG and it will be arriving on 12/2. It is the version with the sewn in QD swivels, and I will be mounting it at the rear of my Daniel Defense Omega rail and to the rear of the receiver using a Daniel Defense Carbine QD swivel socket mount. I'll post back after 12/2. Post a reminder on this thread if you don't hear anything from me by 12/3.
Ridge_Runner_5
11-24-08, 02:29
I use the padded VCAS sling because a few years ago I got 2nd degree burns over a good part of my upper body and as a result my shoulders are pretty tender to this day....the padding makes it more comfortable to carry my AR than would a standard sling...
BFG only makes the shorter version now.
Ha! I guess the company agreed with us guys that got blasted in a thread here for not knowing how to use the VCAS because we wanted it shorter. I guess now I have a collectors item! Any big guys out there need the long version?
Ha! I guess the company agreed with us guys that got blasted in a thread here for not knowing how to use the VCAS because we wanted it shorter.
This is THE thread.
Brittany at BFG told me the shorter padded section has been in affect for around the last 4 months.
Got a couple VCAS in the mail from Ashley a few days back. Been working with him on a style that will sung up. Will keep you all posted on what we come up with.
Also been talking with the VTAC folks as well, looking at upgrading their model to hold the adjustment better.
The shorter VCAS is better than the longer version. If you want to snug up with the current models available, then you'll have to go to a non-padded version.
But as posted, Larry did not design this sling to snug up, he intended it as a immediate action sling, and also to aid the shooter in a solid platform.
Am wanting the best of all 3.........
Jay Cunningham
11-24-08, 16:57
BFG only makes the shorter version now. The padded section of the original version was 21" and the new version is 18". You should be able to get the shorter version from the dealer. I would have them verify that what they have is the shorter version though. There very well could be dealers that still have the old version in their inventory. I ordered mine direct from BFG and it will be arriving on 12/2. It is the version with the sewn in QD swivels, and I will be mounting it at the rear of my Daniel Defense Omega rail and to the rear of the receiver using a Daniel Defense Carbine QD swivel socket mount. I'll post back after 12/2. Post a reminder on this thread if you don't hear anything from me by 12/3.
Well... how about that.
;)
I've been going back and forth between which sling I should get, the VTAC or VCAS. I must say, since I found this thread I've learned a lot about what makes a good sling, and how they need to employed/ mounted.
It looks like all these guys keep getting it wrong...
http://images46.fotki.com/v1396/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0711-vi.jpg
http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/DSC_0031-1.jpg
http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/DSC_00351.JPG
http://www.spartantactical.com/sitebuilder/images/Jim_Carbine_2_-266x299.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/synergy303/Howe_Rock_River.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gesXIMa0vFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV7SERiVP5U
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1859735425/bclid1859711867/bctid1847316556
Guess they don't know what a good quality sling is, or how to mount them properly. They probably just don't have enough "training" time under their belt to realize these things. Good thing there are some real experts out there, to show them the error of their ways. [/sarcasm]
Now, in all seriousness...how did we get so far away from this?
Differences in opinion are quite common amongst the firearms industry, as there are few absolutes in this industry. And as a result, debates over preferences are common. We hope you use this forum to share and exchange ideas and not to win arguments. It is the bigger man that agrees to disagree without being disagreeable.
Does that go out the window after you give money to the site?
This thread has severely soured me on M4C. I thought this site was above this kind of behavior....certainly that the senior membership was.
I'll be surprised if this post is allowed to stay, and if I don't get banned for calling it like I see it. Regardless, IMO, something needed to be said.
I just received my VCAS sling and have been experimenting with the front of the buttstock and back of the buttstock positions (UBR stock). The problem I have with the sling at the front of the stock is that I end up with a face full of sling when I bring the rifle to my shoulder..basically I often end up with sling between my cheek and the stock. Is there something obvious I'm missing?
As per the BlueForceHGear site when I am in full tactical gear, hard plates and all, I have to move the quick adjust buckles to the rear to give slack. Even adjusted all the way out t the rear I cannot shoot with the quick adjust all the way forward.
I guess this is how it is designed but it just does not seem right. I also find the sling hangs up on my kit.
Just my observations.
You have to pick your poison I guess. What is more important, being able to get out of the weapon when you are being thrown about like a rag doll or performing adminstrative tasks. It is your call as too what you find more important.
The tab remains forward until you need to shoot offhand. Then you pull the tab back to under your arm pit. This creates the slack you need to switch shoulders.
The VTAC sling is lacking in a good many areas (making it useless).
Instructions on how top properly adjust the Vickers sling is found on BFG's website: http://www.blueforcegear.com/pdf/INSTRUCTIONS_VICKERS_SLING.pdf
C4
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.