View Full Version : Why no Aimpoint with Eotech reticle yet?
If Holosun can make a circle-dot reticle micro dot with battery life measured in years, why isn't Aimpoint? They could price it above the t2 and it would still fly off the shelves. Anyone have any insight on why they haven't done it yet?
Let's look at the quality difference betweeen holosun and Aimpoint. I mean, sure, looks doable. But is it doable to Aimpoint's standards (durability, battery life)? Aimpoint's point is also kind of trademark. It's not Aimreticle.
If Holosun can make a circle-dot reticle micro dot with battery life measured in years, why isn't Aimpoint? They could price it above the t2 and it would still fly off the shelves. Anyone have any insight on why they haven't done it yet?
Different technology.
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I guess that's where my disconnect is. I always thought that the technology was very similar and Holosun just recently figured out how to get to 50k hours of battery life.
I have never held one in my hand but I'll bet the Holosun reticle is etched like a LPV is. If so it will never have the capabilities of a RDS.
It's projected with no etching. The outer circle can be turned off leaving a single dot.
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Except it's still made by holosun. Soooo
Boba Fett v2
01-17-17, 19:20
Yeah, I'll buck the trend and go against the status quo and quit towing the party line. The Holosun optics I've tested so far are good to go, and this is coming from a long time Aimpoint user, both in real world applications and on my personal firearms. Not saying they're fail-proof. What optics are? I've also owned defective Aimpoints and have witness some go tits up when I was in the service. It happens. Holosun seems to be on the right track and at least they're trying to incorporate features that people actually want in their designs. Until they prove to consistently deliver crap products and/or start demonstrating piss poor product support, I will continue to give them a fair shake. Aimpoint has a fairly strong track record. They hold big gov and LEO contracts. They've proven their worth in the GWOT. I get it. But all this lore about Aimpoints being virtually indestructable is amusing (the CompM4s is the best RDS I've used, over-engineered and built like a f**king tank, but they break too). Go to any unit and start counting how many you can find in the deadlined TI bin. This is not a bash against Aimpoint, but maybe we shouldn't be bashing an up and coming company who is trying to deliver quality products at competitive price points, especially if we don't have any personal hands-on experience with those products. 'Murica.
RobertTheTexan
01-17-17, 21:04
Yeah, I'll buck the trend and go against the status quo and quit towing the party line. The Holosun optics I've tested so far are good to go, and this is coming from a long time Aimpoint user, both in real world applications and on my personal firearms. Not saying they're fail-proof. What optics are? I've also owned defective Aimpoints and have witness some go tits up when I was in the service. It happens. Holosun seems to be on the right track and at least they're trying to incorporate features that people actually want in their designs. Until they prove to consistently deliver crap products and/or start demonstrating piss poor product support, I will continue to give them a fair shake. Aimpoint has a fairly strong track record. They hold big gov and LEO contracts. They've proven their worth in the GWOT. I get it. But all this lore about Aimpoints being virtually indestructable is amusing (the CompM4s is the best RDS I've used, over-engineered and built like a f**king tank, but they break too). Go to any unit and start counting how many you can find in the deadlined TI bin. This is not a bash against Aimpoint, but maybe we shouldn't be bashing an up and coming company who is trying to deliver quality products at competitive price points, especially if we don't have any personal hands-on experience with those products. 'Murica.
I've heard nothing but positive feedback from those that have bought them and/or received one for T&E.. I think I would probably buy one and put on a training AR, and give it a good run and go from there.
I also think like you mentioned, the fact that Aimpoint has seen service in combat is the great differentiator. Holosun could be an excellent optic, but until it gets tried in a similar manner I think it will always be in a backseat position. It's probably not fair and maybe perception will change given enough time and people like yourself speaking up on their behalf.
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I just got this Holosun with an ACSS super simple ranging reticle with a larger horseshoe you can turn off. It is also motion activated which makes it even easier to use. It truly feels like a game changer when you shoulder your carbine and see this micro red dot reticle.
http://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-paralow-hs503g-red-dot-sight-acss-reticle-hs503g-acss
I have several Primary Arms, Holosun, and Sig Romeo 5 sights and they have worked fine on my various fun guns to include a hot Ultimak AK mount, various 9mm blowbacks, and of course 5.56 AR's.
I have had every generation of Aimpoint and still have many for duty and serious guns, but I believe the ACSS reticle is a game changer that Aimpoint needs to answer. With a magnifier the ACSS is sharp and clear.
We will see how it holds up!
Dennis.
Outlander Systems
01-18-17, 14:30
This.
AP uses a LED.
EOTech uses a LAZZZZER.
Different technology.
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If you're going to have a complex reticle other than a single dot, the only way is via holographic projection. Which means laser, not a single-dot LED.
If you're going to have a complex reticle other than a single dot, the only way is via holographic projection. Which means laser, not a single-dot LED.
Holosun is successfully using an LED which is why I raised the question. The circle dot reticle with the Aimpoint name and track record behind it would be huge for the people that prefer the eotech circle dot reticle. I can't imagine it would be too hard for Aimpoint to order one and figure it out. http://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-paralow-hs503c-circle-dot-sight-hs503c
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Yeah, I'll buck the trend and go against the status quo and quit towing the party line. The Holosun optics I've tested so far are good to go, and this is coming from a long time Aimpoint user, both in real world applications and on my personal firearms. Not saying they're fail-proof. What optics are? I've also owned defective Aimpoints and have witness some go tits up when I was in the service. It happens. Holosun seems to be on the right track and at least they're trying to incorporate features that people actually want in their designs. Until they prove to consistently deliver crap products and/or start demonstrating piss poor product support, I will continue to give them a fair shake. Aimpoint has a fairly strong track record. They hold big gov and LEO contracts. They've proven their worth in the GWOT. I get it. But all this lore about Aimpoints being virtually indestructable is amusing (the CompM4s is the best RDS I've used, over-engineered and built like a f**king tank, but they break too). Go to any unit and start counting how many you can find in the deadlined TI bin. This is not a bash against Aimpoint, but maybe we shouldn't be bashing an up and coming company who is trying to deliver quality products at competitive price points, especially if we don't have any personal hands-on experience with those products. 'Murica.
We just saw one crushed when an AR landed on its mag. This is a .22LR/plinker optic at best.
Aimpoints are pretty much fail proof. They see something less than 1% returned for a problem (with half of those issues being stupid user tricks).
C4
WickedWillis
01-19-17, 12:08
I just got this Holosun with an ACSS super simple ranging reticle with a larger horseshoe you can turn off. It is also motion activated which makes it even easier to use. It truly feels like a game changer when you shoulder your carbine and see this micro red dot reticle.
http://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-paralow-hs503g-red-dot-sight-acss-reticle-hs503g-acss
I have several Primary Arms, Holosun, and Sig Romeo 5 sights and they have worked fine on my various fun guns to include a hot Ultimak AK mount, various 9mm blowbacks, and of course 5.56 AR's.
I have had every generation of Aimpoint and still have many for duty and serious guns, but I believe the ACSS reticle is a game changer that Aimpoint needs to answer. With a magnifier the ACSS is sharp and clear.
We will see how it holds up!
Dennis.
I completely agree with this statement. The ACSS reticle is incredible, and a game changer in the optics world. It even has me flirting with buying another ACOG down the road, or a Primary arms 1-4x. It's that phenomenal.
Wow, might put one of those on an ak or 300blk, or both.
wildcard600
01-20-17, 08:18
I think the fact that most people can't see a complex reticle like the ACSS properly without a magnifier likely prevents Aimpoint from losing much sleep over not offering such a optic. Add in the fact that Holosun's battery life claims appear to as of yet be unsubstantiated, power usage to project above mentioned complex recticle may be too high at this point (for Aimpoint's standards).
I see all this talk of "game changer" with the flava of the month super-duper-reticle in Chinese made RDS, but I rarely (if ever) see a range report using said reticle for the distance shooting it was designed for.
Aimpoints rule because (1) they are durable as #$% (2) have a crazy long battery life and (3) are used primarily to shoot at closer ranges (several hundred yards max, usually much closer in).
So until I see a bunch of real use of these wacky reticles for what they were designed for, I'll stick with the Aimpoint and holdovers off a 100 yard zero on my AR. If I want more precision than COM hits out to 400, I move to a high quality variable optic.
YMMV.
ETA - there is nothing 'Merica about Holosun, they are Chinese made optics who's OEM appears to also make optics for SIG. For $200-ish, I think you get what you pay for.
lawusmc0844
01-21-17, 00:25
I see all this talk of "game changer" with the flava of the month super-duper-reticle in Chinese made RDS, but I rarely (if ever) see a range report using said reticle for the distance shooting it was designed for.
Aimpoints rule because (1) they are durable as #$% (2) have a crazy long battery life and (3) are used primarily to shoot at closer ranges (several hundred yards max, usually much closer in).
So until I see a bunch of real use of these wacky reticles for what they were designed for, I'll stick with the Aimpoint and holdovers off a 100 yard zero on my AR. If I want more precision than COM hits out to 400, I move to a high quality variable optic.
YMMV.
ETA - there is nothing 'Merica about Holosun, they are Chinese made optics who's OEM appears to also make optics for SIG. For $200-ish, I think you get what you pay for.
Aimpoints are made in Sweden so not that much 'murrican either, and I had one lose zero that had to be sent back. EO-Techs are 'muuuurica yet they're junk. Holosun is relatively new to the game but Im giving them a chance as they've been good to go for me and others I know as well.
diving dave
01-21-17, 09:51
If I could afford Aimpoint micros on all my rigs I'd do it, but too many rifles not enough dough at the moment. I've been playing with a PA advanced micro dot on my X95, so far I've been very impressed.
The only problem I have with Aimpoint is the price. I have owned and still own plenty of them. They are my go to optic, but they are too pricey for what they are. Some will argue with this, but it's just my opinion. The PRO is about the right price point IMO. The T2 price is ridiculous for what it is.
I want an Aimpoint with two dots with the second for set up to compensate for the offset at close range
I understand what I'm about to say is somewhat off topic but.........
I don't get this facination with cheap optics. I work f#@$%^* hard for my money. I can't afford to pay $200 for something that may or may not work. I also thought this site was supposed to be a cut above 'TOS'. Supposed to be more about 'duty' grade and less about range toys. Aimpoint got their rep from tough, reliable rds. Not from questionable features at an attractive price point. I own a few 'cheaper' optics myself. But I only purchased those after seeing others have great results. So yes I own some Burris's and some UltraDots, but both companies have proven track records. However the Burris FF3 on my 357 mag is NOT a combat quality optic and I don't pretend that it is. Holosun is NOT what I would put on a LEO carbine, home defense weapon, and sure as hell not a rifle I would take into battle. Nor would I put one on a 'range toy'. Range toys are supposed to be about fun. Re-zeroing the dot constantly, replacing batteries monthly, having to baby it so that it does not get knocked around is not my idea of fun.
Rant off. Back to the topic. I would assume Aimpoint does not think an Eotech type reticle is worth the reduced battery life in their product line. A wise man once told me "do one thing good". I think that what Aimpoint is trying to do.
I understand what I'm about to say is somewhat off topic but.........
I don't get this facination with cheap optics. I work f#@$%^* hard for my money. I can't afford to pay $200 for something that may or may not work. I also thought this site was supposed to be a cut above 'TOS'. Supposed to be more about 'duty' grade and less about range toys. Aimpoint got their rep from tough, reliable rds. Not from questionable features at an attractive price point. I own a few 'cheaper' optics myself. But I only purchased those after seeing others have great results. So yes I own some Burris's and some UltraDots, but both companies have proven track records. However the Burris FF3 on my 357 mag is NOT a combat quality optic and I don't pretend that it is. Holosun is NOT what I would put on a LEO carbine, home defense weapon, and sure as hell not a rifle I would take into battle. Nor would I put one on a 'range toy'. Range toys are supposed to be about fun. Re-zeroing the dot constantly, replacing batteries monthly, having to baby it so that it does not get knocked around is not my idea of fun.
Rant off. Back to the topic. I would assume Aimpoint does not think an Eotech type reticle is worth the reduced battery life in their product line. A wise man once told me "do one thing good". I think that what Aimpoint is trying to do.
The gun world is divided into two groups. We call them eighty percenters and twenty percenters. The 80's buy guns and gear based off how they look, name recognition or cost. They have no need for training and think Wolf makes good ammo. The 20's only buy high end products, attend training, practice what they learned and believe guns are a tool to defend themselves with.
Every forum on the planet has a little bit of both (with this one leaning heavily towards the 20's).
IMHO, the reason Aimpoint does not do an EOTech style reticle is because they believe that the dot is the better choice. The word "pride" comes to mind. :-)
C4
mebiuspower
01-25-17, 11:07
Sig is using Holosun tech on their RDS. It's perfectly fine range optic for those who can't afford a MRO or Micro.
Full disclosure; I work for Aimpoint as a Pro Staff member.
The reason Aimpoint uses a dot rather than a reticle is (as previously stated) that they use an LED emitter rather than a laser. With the LED you are committed to a dot. With a laser you can pretty much make any pattern you like. Of course there are downsides to the laser. It draws considerably more power and many of them draw power even when they are off in an effort to "wake up" faster when activated.
What we offer over everyone else is battery life and durability. One of the demos we often do is to shoot a group, take the optic off the rifle and throw it across the range. No not to someone...allowing it to skip across the ground. The optic is then remounted. Not only does it still work, it is also still zeroed or within 1 MOA (that's more dependent on the mount than the optic).
For a range toy or competition gun rock whatever optic you like. If your life may depend on your optic working correctly every time Aimpoint is the answer.
I am NOT a salesman. I could not in good conscience suggest a product to war fighters and first responders that I did not have full faith in. I have used Aimpoints for 28 years and have them mounted on my rifles and my department's rifles. In my mind there is no substitute.
Digital_Damage
01-25-17, 16:35
Full disclosure; I work for Aimpoint as a Pro Staff member.
The reason Aimpoint uses a dot rather than a reticle is (as previously stated) that they use an LED emitter rather than a laser. With the LED you are committed to a dot. With a laser you can pretty much make any pattern you like. Of course there are downsides to the laser. It draws considerably more power and many of them draw power even when they are off in an effort to "wake up" faster when activated.
What we offer over everyone else is battery life and durability. One of the demos we often do is to shoot a group, take the optic off the rifle and throw it across the range. No not to someone...allowing it to skip across the ground. The optic is then remounted. Not only does it still work, it is also still zeroed or within 1 MOA (that's more dependent on the mount than the optic).
For a range toy or competition gun rock whatever optic you like. If your life may depend on your optic working correctly every time Aimpoint is the answer.
I am NOT a salesman. I could not in good conscience suggest a product to war fighters and first responders that I did not have full faith in. I have used Aimpoints for 28 years and have them mounted on my rifles and my department's rifles. In my mind there is no substitute.
Seriously? That is the official response? Aimpoint is the one and only and their is no substitute? Grant says "pride", but after this response I'm saying arrogance. Don't pull a Leupold (5 years ago) and sit on your achievements while the market and technology passes you by.
WickedWillis
01-25-17, 16:45
Seriously? That is the official response? Aimpoint is the one and only and their is no substitute? Grant says "pride", but after this response I'm saying arrogance. Don't pull a Leupold (5 years ago) and sit on your achievements while the market and technology passes you by.
Well currently neither the market, or technology are passing them by. They still make an incredibly durable proven optic, but haven't stopped making new ones either like the Nano.
Seriously? That is the official response? Aimpoint is the one and only and their is no substitute? Grant says "pride", but after this response I'm saying arrogance. Don't pull a Leupold (5 years ago) and sit on your achievements while the market and technology passes you by.
No that is not an official response. That is MY response. I'm not sure where you read arrogance into my response but that was far from my goal.
The initial question was why does Aimpoint use a dot and not a reticle pattern. I answered that. There was further follow on remarks as to price and why would someone pay it. I tried to explain that as well. It's certainly not arrogant to believe in the product when it works and works well. Grant has nailed it with Pride. It has been my experience that the people who are Aimpoint care about what they produce and want it to be the best product they can produce. Far from "sitting on their achievements" they have made several changes to the products through the years to improve quality and performance and continue to do so.
You like anyone else is free to use whatever you like. I have even suggested that customers with astigmatism look at other optics if they comment on the LED giving them something other than a dot due to their vision issues (Mind you the T2 and H2 have made this less of an issue). Competition is a good thing as it drives the entire market to improve including those at the top of the market. All that being said I still stand by my opinion and first hand experience that Aimpoint is the leader as far as durability and battery life in the red dot market. My comments are to illustrate why I feel that way, not to display arrogance.
Full disclosure; I work for Aimpoint as a Pro Staff member.
The reason Aimpoint uses a dot rather than a reticle is (as previously stated) that they use an LED emitter rather than a laser. With the LED you are committed to a dot. With a laser you can pretty much make any pattern you like. Of course there are downsides to the laser. It draws considerably more power and many of them draw power even when they are off in an effort to "wake up" faster when activated.
Yes, thank you. Different technologies, as posted earlier in the thread. I have both Eotechs and Aimpoints. I've been satisfied with both, neither have let me down over tens of thousands of rounds, but I'm generally more inclined these days toward Aimpoint, if for no other reason the cost.
Singlestack Wonder
01-25-17, 23:34
Full disclosure; I work for Aimpoint as a Pro Staff member.
The reason Aimpoint uses a dot rather than a reticle is (as previously stated) that they use an LED emitter rather than a laser. With the LED you are committed to a dot. With a laser you can pretty much make any pattern you like. Of course there are downsides to the laser. It draws considerably more power and many of them draw power even when they are off in an effort to "wake up" faster when activated.
What we offer over everyone else is battery life and durability. One of the demos we often do is to shoot a group, take the optic off the rifle and throw it across the range. No not to someone...allowing it to skip across the ground. The optic is then remounted. Not only does it still work, it is also still zeroed or within 1 MOA (that's more dependent on the mount than the optic).
For a range toy or competition gun rock whatever optic you like. If your life may depend on your optic working correctly every time Aimpoint is the answer.
I am NOT a salesman. I could not in good conscience suggest a product to war fighters and first responders that I did not have full faith in. I have used Aimpoints for 28 years and have them mounted on my rifles and my department's rifles. In my mind there is no substitute.
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