FL resize doesn't seem to be bumping my shoulder.

[dmd08]

I'm new to reloading. I have the ABC's of Reloading and a Hornady manual which I've read and have tried to be well informed through online reading as well. I'm going slow and trying to learn as much as I can about each step as I go. I'm going to be reloading for .223 for a precision-oriented upper I built and .30-06 for my M1. My brass is mostly Wolf Gold for .223 (and some IMI and ADI shot through my built upper) and Greek HXP for the -06. Both once fired, in my rifles. I don't have dies yet for the .223 so I'm focusing on the .30-06.

So far I've deprimed, removed the crimps, uniformed primer pockets and flash holes and wet tumbled the HXP cases. I just got some Hornady Custom Grade .30-06 dies today and am starting to learn the resizing process hands on.

As the thread title states if I set up my full length resize die indexed to the top of the shell holder on a raised ram, it doesn't seem to be bumping my shoulder as measured by a Hornady Headspace Comparator. And sometimes it seemed like the resized brass was actually a thousandth or so longer. If I drop the die a quarter turn the press has a pretty hefty cam-over but then the shoulder bumps .001-.002.

My questions:

Has anyone else ever full length resized and had the shoulder measure longer instead of shorter or am I crazy?

Does this even matter or should I just set the die on the shell holder and resize without worrying about measuring my shoulder bump with the comparator?

If I do set up the die with a hefty cam-over is it bad for my equipment?



Thanks

[wilson1911]

The first thing you should do is go to youtube and watch the david tubb vids on reloading. He covers all bases. Grab a liter of soda and a pizza, they are long vids. Take notes. You will not be doing everything he shows you, first just learn the basics.

You actually want a 2 thou bump. Do not go over 3 thou.

more cam-over means your bumping them back even further...as long as your not hitting the shell holder. Use the same rhythm for each stroke of the press.

If they are coming out 1 thou longer, more than likely you primer is not flush or your brass is not going all the way into the die and compressing the shoulder for setback...while still squeezing down the body.

Cheap calipers do not measure the same consistently. Measure the same way every time.

Since your running semiauto's you will want to run the expander ball also, but from the factory it will be a bit big. You can use some fine sandpaper to turn it down with a drill in small increments to just kiss the inside of the neck.

A Full length die sizes the body.....and the shoulder for the amount you set.

buy a stuck shell kit, your going to need it lol

For lube either buy imperial sizing lube( a little goes a VERY long way), or go to you tube(home brew case lube) and make your own...which is the only thing that is better than imperial. It's 99% alcohol with pure lanolin.

Did you buy the insert for a bullet as well as the shoulder ? You will want to measure your rounds CBTO not COAL. BUT....your going to be loading mag length(COAL) anyway for a start. This means you will not be able to touch your lands. If you measure COAL only, you will end up driving yourself crazy with rounds measuring all over the place since bullets are not the same length. Just pretend mag length = your lands.


There are 10 different ways to do each step. Try a few different ways and develop your own style...but be safe. Make a dummy round to make sure they chamber, not a live one.

You may want to post up what equipment your using, and exact steps(method) just in case someone has some pointers or you have a problem.

If your dropping powder by hand, get a saturn powder funnel they rock.

Buy a small flashlight like this.... to check the brass in the reloading tray for each to have a primer/powder before you seat a bullet.

https://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-66118-Stylus-Light-Holster/dp/B0015UC17E/ref=pd_sim_469_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0015UC17E&pd_rd_r=VPXW4MZTD5N0D0RYH544&pd_rd_w=twTD7&pd_rd_wg=mmTWL&psc=1&refRID=VPXW4MZTD5N0D0RYH544

[bigedp51]

When you full length resize the case is squeezed smaller in diameter and "grows" longer. So yes you can make a case longer, blue dotted line below, then the shoulder of the case makes contact with the shoulder of the die and you begin to push the shoulder back. On a bolt action you bump the shoulder back .001 to .003 below the red dotted line and on a semi-auto you bump the shoulder back .003 to .006.

If you follow the dies directions with the die making hard contact with the shell holder and the press cams over you will bump the shoulder back to the green dotted line.

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies vary in size. And the die is adjustable up and down for the resized case to be a custom fit in "your" chamber.

Example, I have a Lee full length die that will push the shoulder back further than any other .223 die I have. And this same die will reduce the case diameter more than my small base dies will.

And this is where having a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge comes in handy. And you measure a fired case and then adjust the die for the proper shoulder bump.

http://i.imgur.com/wm05ArY.gif

Below measuring a fired case to setup your die for the correct shoulder bump.

http://i.imgur.com/OJqNmQH.jpg

Below the Wilson case gauge and the Dillon case gauge to not check case diameter as you can see by how far a reversed case drops into the gauges.

I use the red JP Enterprise gauge for my final "plop" test of my loaded rounds, the JP Enterprise gauge is made from a finish reamer and checks case diameter.

http://i.imgur.com/KSB3ZvP.jpg

[Lefty223]

FWIW I'm using RCBS 'X' sizing dies for my 308 Garand loading, as in an article on the Cast Bullet website by Larry Gibson, he doubled or tripled the case life in his M1A using 308 service rifle loads. I bought one for 5.56 too, but haven't tried it as of yet. The X-die has a rim up inside the die to prevent the case from growing forward. Read/follow instructions - all cases need to be trimmed before using.

[T2C]

If you are relying solely on the cartridge headspace gauge measurement, I suggest comparing the headspace measurement of an unfired cartridge to your resized brass. Using a Forster 30-06 chamber headspace gauge, I determined my Stoney Point cartridge headspace gauge had a 0.0077" error. Once I took the error into account, I was able to accurately determine shoulder set back at the datum line.

Try making up a few dummy rounds by seating bullets on cartridge cases without powder and primers, then cycling them through your rifle. If the die is not sizing the brass properly and they will not chamber, you may have to try a different sizing die or shell plate on your reloader. I would not fire reloaded cartridges until I was certain I had sufficient shoulder set back for the ammunition to safety function in the rifle.

[bigedp51]

Below is a Colt 5.56 Field gauge 1.4736

http://i.imgur.com/MLSZTeH.jpg

Below is the Colt field gauge in my "adjusted" Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge.

http://i.imgur.com/kkoU6og.jpg

Having a headspace gauge and seeing what your chambers "ball park" actual headspace setting is OK. But your not going to change your rifles headspace so it is still just a comparator measuring cartridge headspace minus brass spring back after firing. Meaning if your not installing or replacing a barrel a headspace gauge is not needed for shoulder bump.

[dmd08]

Thanks for the replies. I haven't had a chance to respond until now.

To clarify I'm using a Hornady LNL Classic single stage press. I'm using a Hornady .30-06 full length resizing die. I was using the Hornady headspace comparator (as pictured above by big ed) to get an idea of what was actually happening to the cases relative to each other as I resized. I have the die set up firmly touching the shell holder with just a very slight cam-over.

Just now I grabbed 5 unfired rounds of Greek HXP. Using the comparator they measured 2.042 - 2.044" from case head to shoulder.

5 rounds of fired HXP from my M1 measured 2.040 - 2.042".

Those same 5 fired rounds after resizing measured 2.041 - 2.042

My expectation was that the measurement on the comparator would decrease after resizing due to the shoulder being bumped. In actuality my case head to shoulder measurement hasn't decreased and for a couple of cases grew .001"

There is no room to adjust the die down further since it is already touching the shell holder.

Does this even matter though? My shoulder is equal to or .002" shorter than my examples of loaded rounds so I don't see having any problem chambering a round. I put one of the cases in my chamber and it closed fine. Do I want to back the die off a little and shoot for 2.044" like the unfired rounds?

I don't want to get wrapped around the axle here since it seems a lot of people just set up the die and go for it without measuring anything.

I don't even have bullets, primers or powder yet. This is a genuine pursuit of knowledge. I'm not in a hurry to load rounds. I enjoy learning about the process and just want to set up a foundation of understanding to build on.




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[markm]

1. Buy a case gauge. and...

2. Use Dillon's case lube.

It's just that simple.

[T2C]

I agree with half of what MarkM suggested.

1. Buy a case gauge

2. Use Hornady Unique case lube.

If it fits in the case gauge, it should chamber in your rifle.

[HKGuns]

What the two guys above me said.

PLEASE don't make the same mistake I did when loading my first 1200 556 range rounds. None of them would chamber in any rifle I owned.

You probably have no idea how long it takes to pull and reload 1200 rounds. (I do and it is a very long time.)

Bought a case gauge and fixed the problem. My sizing die was not adjusted correctly.

(I use RCBS lube!)

[waveslayer]

Screw the die down more! Simple fix. I have several rounds that require several turns down once it touches the case holder

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[markm]

2. Use Hornady Unique case lube.

The pump version of hornady 1 shot lube was the worst reloading product I ever tried. I don't know if you've used the aerosol, but the pump stuff sucks in every way possible. Poor lube, hard to get off the brass, etc.

[markm]

Screw the die down more! Simple fix.

That might be it... but his original post indicated the shoulder was longer after sizing. My thought was that poor lube might be gripping the case and stretching is some on the upstroke.

[T2C]

The pump version of hornady 1 shot lube was the worst reloading product I ever tried. I don't know if you've used the aerosol, but the pump stuff sucks in every way possible. Poor lube, hard to get off the brass, etc.

I never used the Hornady pump spray. When resizing a lot of .223 cases, I use Dillon Case Lube. When resizing .308, 30-06 or 8MM, I use Hornady Unique. If I am only going to resize 50 .223 cases, I use Unique. You have to apply the Unique by hand, then wipe it off after resizing. It gives me another opportunity to inspect the case.

A case gauge is a valuable tool when checking resized cases. I do not trust the readings on a cartridge headspace gauge you attach to a caliper. I compare the reading to a factory match case or chamber headspace gauge.

[waveslayer]

It might be how you are using your calipers to measure, ensure the head is level with the caliper arm. I have to screw my dies down more at times, depends.

I use unique case lube. Or I make my own, which works better

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[dmd08]

I've been using some aerosol one shot. Seem to work ok but I'll try some others.

A case gauge was my next tool to buy.

Thanks for the input.

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[bigedp51]

I've been using some aerosol one shot. Seem to work ok but I'll try some others.

A case gauge was my next tool to buy.

Thanks for the input.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

If you are buying a drop in type case gauge the Dillon gauge is made from stainless steal and does not rust. A few nights ago I was polishing some slight corrosion from "steel" Wilson and Midway case gauges. The JP Enterprise case gauges also check case diameter and are great for a final "plop" test of your loaded ammo.

If you buy once fired Lake City brass fired in larger diameter chambers, after sizing the brass wants to "spring back" to its fired size. And by using the JP Enterprise gauges that check body diameter your loaded rounds will fit in any chamber. Meaning if you have any machine gun brass this gauge lets you know if you have excessive brass spring back, and might need a small base die.

[markm]

It might be how you are using your calipers to measure

Outstanding point! SO many new and old reloaders depend on instrumentation and measurements to accomplish the goal. I learned early on that measuring every fukkin thing with calipers was not only a waste of time, it gave me ammo that sucked.

If I'm setting up a bolt gun rifle die, I squeeze down cases incrementally until the cases chamber just right. I don't even own the tools to measure shoulder bump. It's a waste of time because no two cases bump back the same way anyhow... unless you own a perfect annealer and lube every case with the exact same precision.

[williejc]

Could an oversized and/or unlubed neck expander ball be a factor?

[bigedp51]

Outstanding point! SO many new and old reloaders depend on instrumentation and measurements to accomplish the goal. I learned early on that measuring every fukkin thing with calipers was not only a waste of time, it gave me ammo that sucked.

If I'm setting up a bolt gun rifle die, I squeeze down cases incrementally until the cases chamber just right. I don't even own the tools to measure shoulder bump. It's a waste of time because no two cases bump back the same way anyhow... unless you own a perfect annealer and lube every case with the exact same precision.

Probably very true, when I first started reloading I only had a plastic Lyman vernier caliper and too much of what benchrest shooters do filters down to us poor folk who do not need it.

That being said after reading your above posting I got the impression the very first inspection you had in the military you failed for having Buffalo shit on your muzzle loading rifle.

I'm using a Redding +.004 competition shell holder, and my cases are .0025 to .003 shorter than my chamber. And this is measured with a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge.

I'm 67 years old and have chronologically gifted eyesight and I use the Hornady gauge with a digital vernier caliper with "big" numbers.

And when I use my JP Enterprise case gauge I know any of my reloads will fit in any of the three AR15 rifles I'm loading for.

Bottom line, I will admit I have too many gauges and life was simpler when using older methods. "BUT" sometimes when using modern tools and gauges you will git instant information without smoking a cartridge case and wiping the Buffalo shit off your cases.

Don't take my post to be insulting, my first inspection in the military I was written up for having Mammoth dung on my flint tipped speer.
(And when I actually went in the military the Tet Offencive was going on and the M16 rifle still had a bad jamming problem)

[bigedp51]

Could an oversized and/or unlubed neck expander ball be a factor?

If your case necks scream in pain when sizing it can pull the case shoulder forward.

Normally Neanderthals and Ewoks only have this problem.

http://i.imgur.com/W8kkVio.jpg

NOTE, this is called "dry" humor.

[T2C]

I keep brass segregated and use the brass to reload for specific rifles. Some brass requires two passes through the sizing die, because it springs back. This is more of an issue for me when reloading for a M1 Garand or M1A.

If the shoulder is not set back enough on the first pass, I resize again and take a second measurement before adjusting my sizing die.

This is a non-issue when I reload for bolt action rifles. In most cases I neck size the brass.

[markm]

Could an oversized and/or unlubed neck expander ball be a factor?

Possible. Usually you just end up with brass that has to be trimmed and neck run out. Expander balls are the enemy to quality rifle ammo. I don't use them on anything.