View Full Version : Proper Use of the Sling
"the sling is NOT a shooting aid."
Sling attached to the stock is a no go
I learned to use the sling of my weapon while shooting 3 position rifle back in the day. Obviously this is not how the sling is used for the AR/M4 type weapon. I learned to use my sling as a shooting aid.
I attached my VCAS sling on the stock and as Grant said it's a no go. I found it awkward and, yes, actually strangling myself with it. I figured that I'm just not used to it and have been working on transitions from left to right. It's still awkward.
So... What is the proper use of the sling as used for the AR/M4 platform? I hope some experts and other experienced folks can chime in.
1. How do you set up and use the BFG/VCAS
2. How do you set up and use the VTAC
3. What about the basic two point slings?
I like using my sling as a shooting aid and not simply something to hang my weapon on my body.
If the BFG/VCAS is not supposed to be used as a shooting aid then I think that I don't really have a use for it.
TheActivePatriot
09-18-08, 17:13
The sling should be attached on the left side of the rifle, preferably as close to the near end of the handguard in front and as close to the receiver as possible in the rear. The sling should go around the user's body (reverse all directions for a southpaw).
The purpose is to aid in weapon retention, allow the user to go hands-free without putting the weapon out of his direct control, and make carrying the weapon for long periods more comfortable. 2-point slings like the Vickers are designed for combat, not position shooting for groups.
I learned to use the sling of my weapon while shooting 3 position rifle back in the day. Obviously this is not how the sling is used for the AR/M4 type weapon. I learned to use my sling as a shooting aid.
I attached my VCAS sling on the stock and as Grant said it's a no go. I found it awkward and, yes, actually strangling myself with it. I figured that I'm just not used to it and have been working on transitions from left to right. It's still awkward.
So... What is the proper use of the sling as used for the AR/M4 platform? I hope some experts and other experienced folks can chime in.
1. How do you set up and use the BFG/VCAS
2. How do you set up and use the VTAC
3. What about the basic two point slings?
I like using my sling as a shooting aid and not simply something to hang my weapon on my body.
If the BFG/VCAS is not supposed to be used as a shooting aid then I think that I don't really have a use for it.
I would like to state, that how I run my slings might not work for you. I am simply sharing what I have found to work YMMV. You run the sling in whichever way you like too.
Combat shooting is not about getting setup up nice and tight in a prone/kneeling or standing position. It is about being able to actively move, climb and transition to a pistol while keeping your weapon attached to you.
There are different slings for different purposes. If you shoot high power only, then the Vickers sling is not a good choice for you. If you have an M4 for home defense and carbine training, then the Vickers is the best sling on the market.
Lastly, if you need a sling to shoot human size target at 300yds, then you should consider spending more money on training.
C4
I guess I need more training in the use of the modern combat rifle sling.
I guess I need more training in the use of the modern combat rifle sling.
Nothing wrong with that. Recognize that you don't know what you don't know and correct the problem.
C4
If the BFG/VCAS is not supposed to be used as a shooting aid then I think that I don't really have a use for it.
Different needs promote different uses, I wouldn't get hung up on how other people think you need to do things. If it works for you, great. If there is something new that helps you, great. Its nice to try new things, but only you know at the end of the day what really works for you.
Different needs promote different uses, I wouldn't get hung up on how other people think you need to do things. If it works for you, great. If there is something new that helps you, great. Its nice to try new things, but only you know at the end of the day what really works for you.
If you don't know what you don't know, then you really cannot set up your gear all that well. We see this all the time across the net (as you know).
So people really cannot figure out what "works for them" as they really have no idea how it is supposed to be done in the first place. This is where training with a quality instructor comes into play. If they cannot afford quality instruction, then at least listen to people that have had it.
This is a good thread to read regarding opinions: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19280
C4
This is why I go to this forum and read and correct and check myself.
Larry Vickers
09-18-08, 19:46
Let me state up front the VCAS is primarily designed a tactical sling for carrying and retaining a carbine - an M4 for example
HOWEVER it can be, and has been, used as a shooting aid - and frankly it is probably better suited to this task than alot of traditional shooting slings are to tactical uses
The best way to see if it will work for you in this role is to get some quality training using the VCAS and then 'freelance' a bit with it and try it as a shooting aid - I have done some of this myself and it can be made to work;
just a heads up - the slider and overall length adjustments will probably have to be tweaked which may make it less than ideal for a tactical setup
Hope this info helps - bottom line try it and see what you come up with
Cheers
LAV
Let me state up front the VCAS is primarily designed a tactical sling for carrying and retaining a carbine - an M4 for example
HOWEVER it can be, and has been, used as a shooting aid - and frankly it is probably better suited to this task than alot of traditional shooting slings are to tactical uses
The best way to see if it will work for you in this role is to get some quality training using the VCAS and then 'freelance' a bit with it and try it as a shooting aid - I have done some of this myself and it can be made to work;
just a heads up - the slider and overall length adjustments will probably have to be tweaked which may make it less than ideal for a tactical setup
Hope this info helps - bottom line try it and see what you come up with
Cheers
LAV
Agree Larry. As you know, I run my sling different than you do. Before I changed the setup from the traditional method though, I received proper instruction and THEN made some changes.
C4
I would suggest to get some basic advice on the use of a sling, then go from there. This is how combat and tactical training evolves.
You get the basics, and then folks start figuring out better ways of doing things. people check it out, some it works for, others it does not.
Most any 2-3 point sling can be a shooting aid, even single points with the heavy bungee can aid as well............it's just how you approach it.
Georgia_Boy
09-19-08, 16:54
3. What about the basic two point slings?
When using a bipod I hold the forward part of the sling downward, rather than my left hand holding the forearm. I read it some manual and I found, for me, my accuracy is improved and follow up shots are easier to acquire.
I am no expert. I use a mil clamp on bipod on my 6920 when long distance shooting.
YMMV
Regards,
Ray
PRGGodfather
09-19-08, 18:06
Bing, bing, bing!
I would suggest to get some basic advice on the use of a sling, then go from there. This is how combat and tactical training evolves.
You get the basics, and then folks start figuring out better ways of doing things. people check it out, some it works for, others it does not.
Most any 2-3 point sling can be a shooting aid, even single points with the heavy bungee can aid as well............it's just how you approach it.
Calling all Magpul CTR/MOE owners!
For those of you that DO NOT use QD, what slot do you use to run the rear part of your sling through?
Rear slot, across the buttpad. The lower one makes my AR flip upside down, and the top one won't allow for the stock to retract completely. I been considering the QD provision until just recently rethought that (due to a post by Grant) about how it would affect offhand shots. Makes sense. So I'm leaving it there until I pony up for a mount just aft of the receiver (maybe never).
Rear slot, across the buttpad. The lower one makes my AR flip upside down, and the top one won't allow for the stock to retract completely. I been considering the QD provision until just recently rethought that (due to a post by Grant) about how it would affect offhand shots. Makes sense. So I'm leaving it there until I pony up for a mount just aft of the receiver (maybe never).
So you have issues no matter what slot you use? Interesting.
Sorry if I wasn't clear; I don't have a problem with the sling through the rear vertical slot, wrapped around the buttpad.
I have my sling attached to the top of the stock. Yes, it won't allow for the stock to fully collapse, but I don't have a need for it to do that.
I also put on a QD swivel and tried that as well, it made no diff. in use. I took it off, as the front is attach hard/fast to the barrel mounted sling swivel..........so I kept them the same, front & rear.
If the sling is adjusted back far enough, it will allow you to switch over for the off-hand shot.
Will it be wrapped around your neck? No, as you totally switch arm positions thru the sling, as if you're left handed to begin with.
I have my sling attached to the top of the stock. Yes, it won't allow for the stock to fully collapse, but I don't have a need for it to do that.
I also put on a QD swivel and tried that as well, it made no diff. in use. I took it off, as the front is attach hard/fast to the barrel mounted sling swivel..........so I kept them the same, front & rear.
If the sling is adjusted back far enough, it will allow you to switch over for the off-hand shot.
Will it be wrapped around your neck? No, as you totally switch arm positions thru the sling, as if you're left handed to begin with.
Dropping your arm through the sling is not the best way to do it. It is however your ONLY option when attaching the sling to the stock.
By going to a receiver mounted contact point, you can shoot off shoulder with a lot less effort and faster.
C4
Sorry if I wasn't clear; I don't have a problem with the sling through the rear vertical slot, wrapped around the buttpad.
Gotcha! Thanks! :D
Dropping your arm through the sling is not the best way to do it. It is however your ONLY option when attaching the sling to the stock.
By going to a receiver mounted contact point, you can shoot off shoulder with a lot less effort and faster.
C4
I need my sling to snug up tight to me, if I attach it to the end plate, then snug it up tight, the butt stock wants to rise up into my face..........unacceptable.
If you don't don't need your sling to snug up tight, then yes, the end plate is a good option.
I need my sling to snug up tight to me, if I attach it to the end plate, then snug it up tight, the butt stock wants to rise up into my face..........unacceptable.
If you don't don't need your sling to snug up tight, then yes, the end plate is a good option.
You can collapse your stock (acceptable). Then it will not be in your face.
C4
These look like good QD's; is the Knight's "outward facing" mount worth double the DD "side facing" one?
http://www.knightarmco.com/shop2/index.php?productID=234
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=78
These look like good QD's; is the Knight's "outward facing" mount worth double the DD "side facing" one?
http://www.knightarmco.com/shop2/index.php?productID=234
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=78
Both are good, but I prefer the DD one.
C4
Sling question specific to Vickers combat applications sling:
In action, does the sling need to be adjusted to do a particular thing? (hope this makes sense)
Is the adjustment a fine or gross motor skill?
Depends on what you want it to do.
Specifics would be good here.
I would prefer the VCAS have a tad longer adjusting grab strap. When I've shown the sling around, most noted that, which makes it a bit more of a fine motor skill. But it would be easy to make it longer, they just need to add a few inches to it. If they did that, it still would not flop around, or even get close to getting in the way of anything, just make it easier to find and grab.
I like my VCAS just the way it is. I use MASH hooks on both ends with the rear attached to a CQD Rear Sling Mount (CQD® -RSM) replaces the manufacturer's original part (receiver end plate adaptor) and allows a convenient, strong sling attachment point at the rear of a M-4/M-16/AR-15 receiver outfitted with a collapsible stock. The VCAS is in the furthermost forward position until you need to loosen it for whatever reason.
threefeathers
09-21-08, 11:14
For those of us who served in the military during earlier times it is shocking to see that young soldiers don't know how to use the sling. A hasty sling will improve your ability to get hits in any position. I love watching WW2 footage and seeing guys automatically using a hasty sling. I used one all the time with am M-16 A1 and so did my platoon members.
Sling question specific to Vickers combat applications sling:
In action, does the sling need to be adjusted to do a particular thing? (hope this makes sense)
Is the adjustment a fine or gross motor skill?
You adjust the sling so that you can go from letting the weapon hang to shouldering it with NO adjustment.
I view pulling the tab back as a gross motor skill. Hitting the bolt catch on your AR with your thumb would be classified as a fine motor skill.
C4
I have a VCAS and a new LMT lower with MOE stock (Thanks to Grant). I have previously been using the VCAS with the standard M4 stock. It sounds like the best place to attach the sling on the MOE is to the rear vertical butt loop. Is it better to loop it through the butt loop and around the buttplate or just use the butt loop alone? Anyone have any pictures of how they are attaching the VCAS to the MOE? Thanks.
Gabe Suarez
09-23-08, 11:35
Why I Prefer Simple 2 Point Slings
Look through any news stand gun magazine and you'll invariably see, either in an article or an ad, a photo of some Spec-ops guy wearing a long gun. I say "wearing" because he will probably be using some sort of multi-strap like device harnessing the rifle to his body.
You might ask if this is a bad thing. For some it may not be, but it depends on your mission. My mission and that of my clients is to wring the greatest utility out of an implement, by a single individual, in what are called “in extremis” situations. Specifically operating with the weapon in unfriendly environments in the civilian, or civilian police context.
One may be tempted to raise eyebrows at the notion of a lowly civilian using a rifle, but I hardly need to remind anyone in the Gulf states about what happens during a breakdown in public services, or about the Rodney King Riots in LA. In such events, Joe Sixpack the stockbroker, graduate of the entire private sector rifle curriculum, will not be storming a Hezbollah stronghold with another dozen deadly, similarly equipped operators. His mission-needs do not call for setting charges, or flex-cuffing anyone. Quite simply, he does not share the same requirements as the Spec-ops dude in the tactical sling ad.
To the contrary, the private citizen, operating in extremis has one of two missions. He will either hold his ground and defend his home against the adversaries, or he will “bug out” to safer locales. His problems are defending his survival equipment and supplies from the criminal looters that invariably will come, as well as hiding the fact that he is capable of doing so from any police forces that may decide that the US Constitution no longer applies.
What does he need a sling for? What does he need the sling to do?
1). He needs the sling to be simple and stay out of the way. The rifle must be deployable in a blink of an eye without the need to “strap in”
2). He needs it handy for when it is needed for a free hand.
3). He must be able to transition to the pistol
That is it. Period.
Methods of Transition
First off, there are 1001 ways to transition the rifle. I am a minimalist at heart. If I could boil down my entire rifle system to one technique I'd do it. When I train "getting off the X", I do it very dynamically. I want to clarify that point because I have seen guys "get off the x" with only a little side step and then stop. I think instead we "haul ass off the x", or sprint off the x".
The ability to do this dynamically and explosively takes precedence over everything else.. So for me, its not just about time frames on the range, its about ability to execute while running off the X, and about being able to draw my concealed pistol, and last of all, to free up the hands to fight and possibly transition to another weapon.
I have gone over to the 2 point sling for the reasons I elaborated on. Not that there is anything wrong with the other types of slings....if the mission requires it. For the single operator...specially a private citizen, the 2 point has much more flexibility.
I worked all manner of ways to get rid of the rifle while trying to get the pistol, while exploding off the X. Oh, by the way...the pistol is concealed. Transitioning to an open carry pistol while stationary is real easy for anyone. When we added the difficulty factor of running and clearing concealment garments, and drawing, simple transitions became extremely difficult and easily messed up.
In class, I have had guys do their pet transitions stationary, and then I get them running off the X. As soon as we do this, they start having problems. Then I have them ground their sub loads and chest rigs and go street carry. Now transition on the move as you explode off the X. The guys begin looking like a bag of cats on the way to the river. I'm not saying you cannot train yourself to do something, but I like simple.
The transition method I ended up with is ultra-positive. It may be a little slower, but for me, and those I have had in class, I found it is less fumble-prone than other methods. Positive gross-motor, caveman methods that hold up are preferable for me.
Seriously, and I don't mean to offend the knowledgeable folks here, but try your transition on the run off the x from concealment and see if it changes anything.
The other thing I noticed when we began testing this in FOF (rifle FOF is a blast....really) is that is it gets to a combative distance (imagine hallway, room fighting, etc.) fighting with a rifle hanging in front of you or still held in the other hand is more difficult for most people. Initially one may think that having the rifle in the offhand would be an advantage because it can be used as an impact weapon, but not really. Consider how you are holding the piece....probably not in a way it can be used for striking.
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