View Full Version : An un-qualified opinion - (discussion)
...is of less value than a qualified one.
This statement has caused me some problems on various forums when asking for people's frame of reference, past experience, actual experience, or other qualifiers to an opinion.
Someone posts that "this class was amazing!", yet when pressed admits that the only other class they ever had was the two hour lecture at the gun show to get their CWP.
Someone posts "I love my XYZ carbine!", yet eventually concedes that they have had the thing for 3 years and are still on the first case of ammo they bought with the gun.
Someone posts "the ABC bolt-on made by XYZ is the best!", but come to find out that they've never even laid hands on one, let alone used one.
Which isn't to say that these opinions are completely worthless, so long as they are properly qualified.
If the guy in example one said "I've never taken any training before, but this instructor really took the time to walk the new guys through and I absolutely loved the experience", then others that are new to training could perhaps put themselves in his shoes and figure out that this might be a class they would be interested in.
If the guy in example two just fessed up to the relatively low round count, and the virtual lack of experience with the gun, perhaps someone else with a similar intended use could benefit from the opinion and save $200 over buying more gun than they "need".
If the guy in example three just admitted that he got the information off the internet, but said "I've never used an ABC from XYZ, but both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers have posted on various forums that they love them" (and preferably provide links to those posts), then at least they're sort of shifting the qualifier to someone else, and providing the resource where someone could go and ask questions of Pat and Larry to further their inquiries.
Yes, contrary to what your mommy and your third grade teacher told you, while everyone may be entitled to their opinion, some opinions are of less value than others.
When seeking advice on the internet, you need to include two things:
1) What do you intend to do with the product? Whether you are asking about Jeep parts, rifles, electronics, sex toys, whatever, if you leave out what you want to do with it, you could wind up with suggestions for a ball gag when what you really want is a sybian (google it if you don't know what it is). TELL US WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE ITEM IN QUESTION. What optic someone suggests will depend on whether you want to defend your barricaded family in your home or pop prairie dogs at 800 yards.
2) What is your frame of reference? If you're asking for suggestions on a new product, and you've already owned 3 of the competitive products, let people know that so they can save time and streamline their advice. If you're asking about 123 because you've already tried ABC and didn't like it, then say so. That way the people that prefer ABC can save themselves the trouble of suggesting it. If you're asking about a class to take, post your previous training experience as it will have an impact on what people recommend.
When reading advice on the internet, you need to make sure of two things:
1) Does the advice-giver have any real frame of reference for their opinions? If they don't post their qualifiers, or get upset when asked to, then you can pretty easily discount their opinion. Make sure that the guy posting on the other end actually has some kind of experience to back up his opinion, or at least tells you that he has none.
2) Does the advice-giver share your frame of reference? While cops can learn from non-LE, and civilians can learn from soldiers, and soldiers can learn from competition shooters, there are times when the needs of someone in a role different from yours may not translate well to your needs. Make sure that you understand where the other person is coming from, their application and level of experience, and that you understand how their frame of reference translates to your own.
When offering advice on the internet, you should do two things:
1) Post your qualifiers. "I love my XYZ" is an absolutely useless post. It helps nobody, does nothing but strokes your own ego, and chances are you are only actually recommending the only brand/model/example/version of the thing that you have ever even seen in person. Stop it. There is nothing wrong with posting an opinion based largely in ignorance, but own up to it. Say "I bought an XYZ as my first AR and I've put x# of trouble-free rounds through it". Don't say "flawless". Please. For the children.
2) Post your frame of reference. If you use your rifle as a PMC in Iraq, say so. If you use your rifle for competitive shooting, say so. If you use your rifle as an LE patrol rifle, say so. While there may be some carryover, oftentimes there isn't. Preferably you should ascertain what it is that the other guy is planning on doing with his XYZ, and then qualify whatever advice you give based on same.
Good stuff Rob. I have always painted the below scenario as to how and why people end up with crap AR's (or guns in general).
OP: Who makes the best AR?
Poster #1: BM
Poster #2: Oly
Poster #3: DPMS
OP: Thanks guys for the reference.
---Couple days go by----
OP: Well I just bought my first AR!!! I went to my local gun shop and they had TONS of BM's, OLY's and DPMS. The guy working the counter said that they were all the best, mil-spec AR's and they all have .Mil contracts. So I picked the one with the nicest finish. :D I am going to the range tonight to see how she shoots!
--Next day---
OP: WOW does this AR shoot well. I shot all the all ammo I bought and not a single JAM! Fantastic reliability. I don't know why people say that this brand of AR's is not reliable.
---2 weeks go by---
New OP: Does anyone have experience with DPMS AR's?
Old OP: Mine is great! I have shot a lot of ammo through it and not a single jam. By far the best AR I have owned!
The cycle continues....
I know that some people are going to read my scenario above and ask what is wrong with it? Here is what is wrong:
1. The OP never asked the responders to his thread how long they have owned their AR, how many AR's they own, how many rounds they have fired and if they run their AR's through carbine schools.
2. The OP went to his gun club and slow fired (as that is all that is allowed) 100rds of 55gr ammo. (lacks serious round count via shooting schools)
3. This is the first AR that the OP has ever owned (lacks experience).
4. The OP believes that he is an experienced AR shooter and his opinion is worth a lot.
C4
Well put Rob.
Now if we could just make it mandatory reading before posting, well it could save some people a lot of trouble.
I also feel if you REALLY don't have a lot of experience/firsthand knowledge, PLEASE do NOT argue (especially repeatedly) with those who obviously work and play on these platforms for a living and out of passion. It only makes you look bad/ignorant.
People like me who don't have a lot of exp in these fields yet, can waste a lot of time wading thru some of the examples of what Rob posted above. If you came here to learn like me and don't know or have the experience, then just read and learn. Some times it can be hard for a newbie like me to wade thru the "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull". Or like my FFL said, "Nothing wrong with XYZ's, a lot of people have one". Just because a lot of people have crap does not mean crap is good. Yes I am one of those that did NOT do my research first, and bought an "XYZ" first. Well it didn't do me any harm, but I didn't put much down range with it, so I didn't feel qualified to rate it EITHER way. But after reading here and seeing who doe's what, and can back it up, I took a good look at what I had and saw were it was lacking in quality by what I read here to look for, posted by those who could back it up with good pics, and good links to read for myself.
To all the professionals here, I thank you for your input and hope you continue.
Old Gramps, trying to learn new and right.
---------------------
(I sold my Cow, so I don't need your Bull)
Good post rob_s and C4. I have been around this business for a long time and things change, but many stay the same. The mis-information that flies around gun shops, gun shows and gun forums runs deep. It is always a breath of fresh air to see info posted by people in the know like we see here.
It might get more attention from the newcomers if this was relabeled "Please read before posting or reading threads on this forum".
As Gramps said before thanks to all the pro's who spend their valuable time on this forum.
Good post rob_s and C4. I have been around this business for a long time and things change, but many stay the same. The mis-information that flies around gun shops, gun shows and gun forums runs deep. It is always a breath of fresh air to see info posted by people in the know like we see here.
It might get more attention from the newcomers if this was relabeled "Please read before posting or reading threads on this forum".
As Gramps said before thanks to all the pro's who spend their valuable time on this forum.
You are welcome. There are a lot of "pro's" on this forum, but Rob and I are not one of them. :D
Rob is most likely tired of people (that own one AR, have never attended a training class and shoot 100rds a month) telling him that he knows nothing about AR's. I run into the same type of thing. I build AR's for a living (and most likely train more than a lot people) and am still told that I know nothing. It gets old after awhile.
C4
I showed my ass a while ago in response to rob jumping on someone about the things in his post above. After his explanation/education I understood where he was coming from. This sort of quality control is required to keep this forum from becoming like "others". I appreciate all the information from everyone here, it is truly vast. One could/should spend 6 months and never have to post a question and likely get all of their questions answered. This speaks volumes of the community here. I'm glad to be a part of it and will maintain my lane. :cool:
Great post and very well written. Sometimes silence is golden.......
only thing I have to add. This should be a sticky in every section of the forum since it pertains universally.
theJanitor
09-18-08, 21:50
good post, a ball gag would never do if you really wanted a sybian:D
Army Chief
09-19-08, 00:30
Agree that this ought to be mandatory reading, as we all could do with a reminder from time to time, no matter where we happen to fall on the experience and credibility line.
Rob's primer really captures the underlying philosophy behind the success of this forum, and it is precisely that difference that makes M4CN a worthy destination -- when so many others simply aren't.
Chief
'Tis one of the reasons I only lurk here. I'm about to start my first AR build, so I have absolutely nothing to contribute at the moment except secondhand knowledge which is plentiful on the great interwebs anyway.
I'd rather sit here with my trap shut and ears open.
Agree that this ought to be mandatory reading, as we all could do with a reminder from time to time, no matter where we happen to fall on the experience and credibility line.
f
This is an important point.
I wrote what I did the way that I did because I don't want to discourage ANYONE from posting. No matter how experienced, or inexperienced, you are it is pretty certain that at least someone out there is in your same situation but is six months behind you and can learn form what you've screwed up along the way. :D
Everyone should be able to post regardless of level of experience, but everyone should be clear about that level.
'Tis one of the reasons I only lurk here. I'm about to start my first AR build, so I have absolutely nothing to contribute at the moment except secondhand knowledge which is plentiful on the great interwebs anyway.
I'd rather sit here with my trap shut and ears open.
How nice it is to hear someone that is learning to realize that they are much better served observing.
C4
This is an important point. I wrote what I did the way that I did because I don't want to discourage ANYONE from posting. No matter how experienced, or inexperienced, you are it is pretty certain that at least someone out there is in your same situation but is six months behind you and can learn form what you've screwed up along the way. :D Everyone should be able to post regardless of level of experience, but everyone should be clear about that level.
Great post Rob. In a nutshell, "stay in your lane."
You are welcome. There are a lot of "pro's" on this forum, but Rob and I are not one of them. :D
Rob is most likely tired of people (that own one AR, have never attended a training class and shoot 100rds a month) telling him that he knows nothing about AR's. I run into the same type of thing. I build AR's for a living (and most likely train more than a lot people) and am still told that I know nothing. It gets old after awhile.
C4
There are a lot of "pro's" on this forum, and Rob and I are just two of them. (Fixed that for you.)
As far as " IT GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE ", THANKS for being patient and not giving up. There are those of us who are just starting (And everyone starts at the bottom) that REALLY do appreciate what those like your selves, who have the experience and knowledge share it with us.
Don't get me wrong, there are those here who like someone said are not "Pros", but have some knowledge and exp to share and that as well is greatly appreciated too.
A little clarification can go a long way.
PLEASE, NO ONE TAKE ROBS POST THE WRONG WAY . We all can at times have something to offer, with a little clarification.
Thanks EVERYONE.
+1 For m4carbine.net!
Great post Rob. In a nutshell, "stay in your lane."
Was thinking of posting that too, but thought that it might be copyrighted by LF or something. ;)
It also doesn't go far enough. Both advice requestors and givers need to be clear in their frame of reference.
Additionally "staying in your lane" applies to many subjects....and therefor, most people.
Sometimes the "experts" in one area have an aversion to the concept that they have any lanes to remain in, regardless of the subject at hand....as evidenced here and other boards from time to time.
Knowing the limits of your experience and knowledge and having the humility to admit it is by no means relegated to the discussing of tactical shooting and related equipment.
It's a theme many could and should take to heart, yet many do not.
The subject of asking for, or dispencing of advice on the interweb should be taken with several grains of salt right from the get go. Credibility is far too often requested by some folks who frankly are rather mediocre people.
M4C has done a pretty good job of thinning the herd and keeping the SME's in blue.
The other knowledgable folks make themselves evident....over time. Rob obviously has some solid information to share as does Grant, among others.
KintlaLake
09-19-08, 14:14
Interesting thread. I've always maintained that caveat emptor pretty much solves the issue under discussion, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Personally, I've been exposed to many things, have meaningful experience in some and can offer true expertise in a few -- and I'm here because these forums' raison d'etre isn't among my areas of expertise.
So I'm here purely to learn; others are here to contribute and exchange experience as well. Most of us are here to do something other than to exercise our egos, and we act like it. Those who aren't (and don't) won't be instructed by this thread.
No disrespect intended, Rob.
Also when asking question on a forum please respond when someone asks for clarification on your question.
I don’t know how many times I have seen a post where someone would seek advice and not respond to questions from other posters.
HAMMERDROP
09-19-08, 17:40
And am still very much humbled when I see a technical discussion going on that makes me feel uninformed. I just read and sit on my hands even though I am on my 3rd AR in 10 years. There are threads I wish I could participate in but to do so would only make me ' change lanes ' which is not why I open this thread every day whether I want to or not. I can learn something from the 'pros' and those more experienced than I and by wasting their time debating with them is an insult to their knowledge and experience.
I get involved with what I do know about and generally feel like I am walking on thin ice. Most here probably couldn't tell me anything about what I do for a living so I dont try to tell them about what they do for their paychecks, but for the most part I wish I did what they do and you know who you are.
Thanks for all the wisdom over the past couple of years, you guys mean more to me than I can say.
Michael
This seems much too good to stay buried.
This is why I keep coming back here. When I found this site I knew less than nothing about civilian AR's , and I did not fully appreciate the post 9/11 explosion in US experience/knowledge in everything that's AR related.
About all I brought here was a clue that I had no clue and needed to fix that problem.
There is so much solid info here , given freely by people who got it the the hard , honest way.
Thanks.
sandman99and9
03-23-09, 11:41
Good stuff Rob. I have always painted the below scenario as to how and why people end up with crap AR's (or guns in general).
OP: Who makes the best AR?
Poster #1: BM
Poster #2: Oly
Poster #3: DPMS
OP: Thanks guys for the reference.
---Couple days go by----
OP: Well I just bought my first AR!!! I went to my local gun shop and they had TONS of BM's, OLY's and DPMS. The guy working the counter said that they were all the best, mil-spec AR's and they all have .Mil contracts. So I picked the one with the nicest finish. :D I am going to the range tonight to see how she shoots!
--Next day---
OP: WOW does this AR shoot well. I shot all the all ammo I bought and not a single JAM! Fantastic reliability. I don't know why people say that this brand of AR's is not reliable.
---2 weeks go by---
New OP: Does anyone have experience with DPMS AR's?
Old OP: Mine is great! I have shot a lot of ammo through it and not a single jam. By far the best AR I have owned!
The cycle continues....
I know that some people are going to read my scenario above and ask what is wrong with it? Here is what is wrong:
1. The OP never asked the responders to his thread how long they have owned their AR, how many AR's they own, how many rounds they have fired and if they run their AR's through carbine schools.
2. The OP went to his gun club and slow fired (as that is all that is allowed) 100rds of 55gr ammo. (lacks serious round count via shooting schools)
3. This is the first AR that the OP has ever owned (lacks experience).
4. The OP believes that he is an experienced AR shooter and his opinion is worth a lot.
C4
DEAD CENTER BULLSEYE !!! I have seen too many people that just because they own several firearms or any other item that may be in the discussion they think it makes them an expert. I served in the army 15 years ago and am familiar with the ar/m16 platform but am in no way an expert or would ever claim to be. Just by being a member here you guys have saved me a lot of lost money I would have spent on inferior junk at the gun shows and shops around town, thanks guys !! I bought my first ar in january 09 and hope to run it through some carbine courses soon to improve my skills. If it wasn't for you guys I might not know what PMAGS are ...lol
s.m.
Rob, great post. I agree this should be read by everyone who comes here, no matter the experience level.
I have always took the "### is the best and here is why" posts with a grain of salt until I try ### product myself or go inspect it at a local vendor. Not that said person is trying to steer anyone wrong, it's just nothing replaces a physical inspection of anything. If you buy a car without test driving it, you will probably regret it. Plus, arguing the contrary with said person will suddenly be taken personally as a slam against their knowledge. Done in such a "one sided" medium as the internet, this will certainly cause problems. By "one sided" I mean, discussion not made in real time. Also, just because I have had a different experience with a mechanical product, for instance, magazines, than Joe has does not make either one wrong. It's a MECHANICAL product, hell, the whole damn gun is, and many factors come together to make the final product good or bad. A colt AR that has been assembled in-correctly will be a POS even though you paid 2 grand for it.
As for ### brand of AR is better than the next, the above hold true. Often times people have other motivations for saying ### brand is better. This may be due to a remorseful purchase and they are just wanting to feel better. Or some sort of weird ego stroke saying they bought it and they only buy the best... in life I have found the "best" is a highly debatable subject. Opinion will always be open to debate. I have also not been able to find a single post on this site where any manufacturer has had a failure. Feed problems, I understand, but a failure? Please note, I said "that I have been able to find" not that one does not exsist.
Most people buy what they can afford. I would love to afford a colt AR. However, I purchased what I could afford. Plus, I have found the building from parts process most enjoyable and educational. I don't care if the brand is "matel the maker of pop guns" so long as the weapon fires true and reliable and is made to the specs for the ammo.
As for experts, face it, we can all find someone in life who has more experience in something than we do. This does not stop at firearms, combat tactics or ammo. I believe you should take in the information and then test it to prove it's valid. I believe that seperates a wise man from a fool. I have learned much from the people here. And alot of it minus the bs found other places. I think people get way to caught up in the "qualifications" instead of taking the information here, testing it to be true and applying it to their application.
The final decision for anything lies with the end user.
Again, great post.
Red
Might be time for this again.
HiggsBoson
10-01-09, 11:42
Since gbear48 bumped this back up, I thought I'd offer my humble, worthless, and almost entirely unqualified opinion. ;) Rob_s and C4Grant have already said it better than I ever could. (Yet here it is, anyway, for variety.)
I've often considered putting a "disclaimer" in my signature, explaining that I am a relative newcomer and I'm just offering a response/answer in order to help point the way to others. But signatures have their own detractors (including some notables in this thread.) Instead, I just try to err on the side of caution and offer links with references when possible. If someone expressly asks for opinions, I will often weigh in and add a caveat as to how many (or how few, compared to most here) rounds I have downrange, etc. It's not in my nature to just be a lurker/observer... but I do try to adhere to this simple maxim:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/572/stayinlane.jpg
Everyone should be able to post regardless of level of experience, but everyone should be clear about that level.
This is where the toes get stepped on as pride gets in the way for most behind a screen once they are called out. Once it's clear you are out classed in knowledge and experience of the subject matter, it's time to admit it and learn.....however, some prefer to defend and debate a loosing battle.
I have no problems stating I'm behind on certain topics. I probably ask too many questions once I get the itch for something and really how I ended up here at M4. I simply want to educate and have fun with these black guns as I go.
I am being so indecisive on my current build that once I think I need one part, I go back and search and realize it's not exactly what the end application should have. Driving myself and some of you nutz I'm sure and sorry about it.
This is where the toes get stepped on as pride gets in the way for most behind a screen once they are called out. Once it's clear you are out classed in knowledge and experience of the subject matter, it's time to admit it and learn.....however, some prefer to defend and debate a loosing battle.
It doesn't even have to be a case of being outclassed. In the current thread on the TRX someone stated it was "lightest/strongest". I foolishly assumed that this person would have data to back up this statement and asked for clarification on the "strongest" part (I already know how much the product weighs). I will HAPPILY admit that I know less than almost anyone about this rail but am curious about picking one up. I have an academic understanding of how it installs, I know how tall, wide, long it is and the ID and weight and price. I assumed that the poster was actually more knowledgeable than me and was hoping to gain some insight.
Instead he called me an asshole. :eek:
Mind if I copy & paste this to another forum? You worded it much better than I would've :)
@ rob_s,
I like it... the first post, that is. As a general rule, I try not to talk over my own head.
@ topic - I will say that it's difficult sometimes though when you have XXX product and many people instantly put a label on you just for owning it to begin with. It works in both directions. The guy who's got Noveske everything may be half the shooter as the guy who's got an Oly-master-monstermashup. People should keep that in mind. Just because someone wears Wal-Mart jeans instead of Levi's, shouldn't discount their ability to sit in them. Conceptually, most things discussed here will work for many rifles/platforms/situations.
I find that many people don't shoot the weapon they do own to the limits of that weapon, yet they insist that so-and-so is a dumbass for buying XXX product. It's like when people start getting ahead of themselves buying skeletonized this or that because it "locks up 0.003 seconds faster" yet they can't even shoot the stock gun to its full potential. Doodads are fun, but they rarely make a person instantly better.
This is where the toes get stepped on as pride gets in the way for most behind a screen once they are called out. Once it's clear you are out classed in knowledge and experience of the subject matter, it's time to admit it and learn.....however, some prefer to defend and debate a loosing battle.
I have no problems stating I'm behind on certain topics. I probably ask too many questions once I get the itch for something and really how I ended up here at M4. I simply want to educate and have fun with these black guns as I go.
I am being so indecisive on my current build that once I think I need one part, I go back and search and realize it's not exactly what the end application should have. Driving myself and some of you nutz I'm sure and sorry about it.
Most people are either married to their gear or are emotionally/financially attached to their POV.
Once the above takes place, GOD himself could not tell them any different.
C4
Mind if I copy & paste this to another forum? You worded it much better than I would've :)
Good Lord, don't post this on TOS (as it applies to most the entire forum). :D
C4
Most people are either married to their gear or are emotionally/financially attached to their POV.
Once the above takes place, GOD himself could not tell them any different.
C4
You are one person I certainly owe a big thanks & apology for all the nagging...your small port SBR design has me consumed & looking forward when your tests are completed.
On 2nd thought...maybe a kick in the shin is deserving.:D:D
Stupid black gun disease....glad hunting season is here to divert some of this obsession.
Good Lord, don't post this on TOS (as it applies to most the entire forum). :D
C4
Not to mention if they find out it came from me it will just get deleted.
You are one person I certainly owe a big thanks & apology for all the nagging...your small port SBR design has me consumed & looking forward when your tests are completed.
On 2nd thought...maybe a kick in the shin is deserving.:D:D
Stupid black gun disease....glad hunting season is here to divert some of this obsession.
Nah, your questions are just fine.
C4
And then there are the ones who,
1) Come here to sit, read, and think.
2) And then there are the ones who occasionally come to Shit And Stink.
The 1)'s are the ones who learn the most.
Just remember, "YOU CAN'T HAVE A BATTLE OF THE WITT'S WITH AN UNARMED PERSON". So sometimes it is better to just not reply any more to those unarmed.
So please don't pick on an unarmed Gramps. :D
Good Lord, don't post this on TOS (as it applies to most the entire forum). :D
C4
I was thinking of a car forum I occasionally frequent. This is the only firearms related forum I use. 1st time I was lurking and read a few threads on TOS was enough for me not to go back. I'm here to be educated, entertained and throw in a few cents along the way. :D
Allow me to quote myself from another web site. My philosophy when offering help, has always been this;
I believe when people come here to “XXX.com” with questions, that they deserve the most factual and correct answer possible.
I believe in supporting my responses to those questions with documentation when it‘s available. That documentation may be in the form of a TM or FM excerpt from the military, or in some cases my own photos.
If I have no documentation to support my response, then I always try to make it clear to the reader that my response is my “personal response/opinion”.
'Tis one of the reasons I only lurk here. I'm about to start my first AR build, so I have absolutely nothing to contribute at the moment except secondhand knowledge which is plentiful on the great interwebs anyway.
I'd rather sit here with my trap shut and ears open.
Ditto. the main reason i even registered on here was so that I could use the "search" function. (note i never even bothered to register on arfcom.) I'm a newbie to the AR in general and even if it is the internet i'd rather not humiliate myself by spouting off about things i have no practical knowledge of. it just makes you die a little inside. ha ha. :p
I started using this place for everything except very specific questions related to other interests of mine. I'm a member at probably 6 different sights and of them I have a total of about 8 posts combined.
That is what’s nice about M4C.....it’s 99% weapons related. No other non-firearm related forums that attract others with less of an interest in weapons.
Web sites with forums for everything known to man, from Cooking to Pets and Zombies, only attract members with less of an interest in firearms. Those members eventually wonder over into the tech forums, and usually have nothing of interest to post. This makes things hard on everyone from Site Staff and Mods, to the average member truly interested in looking for an answer to his/her question.
i came here to up my lower tier weapon. to do that, i had to sign up to an upper tier site :cool:
Most people are either married to their gear or are emotionally/financially attached to their POV.
C4
I wish I had this problem. Then I could stop buying new stuff when I find things that work better.
John_Wayne777
10-02-09, 00:22
I wish I had this problem. Then I could stop buying new stuff when I find things that work better.
The kind of people Grant is talking about never push their gear or themselves to the point where they recognize a deficiency. It's easy to believe you are awesome when you never realistically assess your knowledge, skills, and abilities. It's easy to believe your equipment is awesome when you're a dirt shooter with a malfunction memory lapse problem.
The kind of people Grant is talking about never push their gear or themselves to the point where they recognize a deficiency. It's easy to believe you are awesome when you never realistically assess your knowledge, skills, and abilities. It's easy to believe your equipment is awesome when you're a dirt shooter with a malfunction memory lapse problem.
John, your sarcasm detector is due for the FALL/09 firmware upgrade. ;)
lol rob_s, when i first seen this thread i thought you were having a bad day and decided to rant, to let off steam. Should have known better. Then again, you are the poster child for saying what's on your mind. :p
nice thing about forums and chats, the longer you stay, listen, watch, and exchange, the better you are able to determine those individuals who have the knowledge that comes from hands-on experience, versus what they read while in the can. Along with that, many of the folks with extensive knowledge have also learned that there is always more to learn, so they are willing to listen and consider alternate view points. A "red flag" for me is a person who immediately goes defensive when presented with info that contradicts their position. Generally those folks with the highest self confidence accept that sometimes their toes will get stepped on, and it doesn't bother them, because that just means their knowledge level has increased.
Humblest of the Proud...Proudest of the Humble, I like those kind of folks.
Generally those folks with the highest self confidence accept that sometimes their toes will get stepped on, and it doesn't bother them, because that just means their knowledge level has increased.
This is an interesting point. There is a guy on another forum that just continues to beat on his "piston is king" drum. It is largely due to a dislike for me personally and he uses the fact that I have stuck with my DI guns as an excuse to "poke the bear". I have gotten to the point where I simply post my rebuttal, give him a chance to respond, post one follow up, and then move on. It's just easier that way. Unlike him my ego isn't tied to the discussion. If our exchanges get other people thinking (and I know that's a tall order) then that's a good thing. I don't resort to emotional outbursts or silly internet humorous "fail" type picture posting, just offer the facts as I see them, as him for his qualifications, and then move on. It's worked quite well.
As Grant has mentioned over and over again, for most people it's not about the gear it's about their ego. Whether it's their ego tied to their initial purchase or their inability to admit defeat in an internet argument, it's still ego.
It's like my favorite response to angry gestures from other drivers on the highway. They give the finger; I wave. They yell angrily; I laugh hysterically. Watching these people self-destruct is more rewarding than "winning" any exchange of gestures or words, or being first in line at the toll booth we're all going to get stuck at in 3 miles.
Jay Cunningham
10-02-09, 08:43
I am reminded a bit of the experiments I conducted earlier in the year with Kalashnikov malfunction clearance and reload techniques.
Not *quite* as a bad on this forum, but over on another AK-dedicated forum I came immediately under rather virulent attack. Why would someone attack someone else for conducting validation of techniques?
I think we have discussed some of the answer to this already.
Why would someone attack someone else for conducting validation of techniques? As was pointed out earlier by several folks, people will take a position based on limited knowledge/experience, and can get extremely defensive when challenged.....including methodology used. Usually the louder and more aggressive they defend their position, the weaker it actually is.
I saw this quote today, and it made me think of this thread:
"Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
--James Burgh
"Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
--James Burgh
Very appropriate.
I don't know if I've already posted in this thread, but...
I wanted to give a huge thank you to all the quality guys and gals here (who are we kidding, I haven't caught site of the Fairer Sex since I walked in!) who make this forum what it is.
There is no Bullshit here. There is so much firsthand knowledge contained in these pages, you really need go nowhere else for firearms discussion. Other specific sites have their merit, but this one really cuts down on all the shit that makes me hate the internet.
This site, and Lightfighter, are the absolute most brutal places to be wrong in. I think that is a blessing, not a curse. If you have to think about a post before, during, and after posting it, the forum has done it's job. That being said, M4C is very kind to those seeking knowledge.
Been here about three months, and I think this is my 15th post. I will never reach a thousand posts. (Been a member of another board for something like 8 YEARS and I have far less than a thousand posts there). But, I am here to learn, and I think everyone on this site is. Nobody here knows everything there is to know about AR/M4/M16/etc weapon systems. The continual thirst for knowledge here is outstanding, and very refreshing.
In a world gone mad, one place is a bastion of sanity. When idiots roam the fori, and the internet is a cold, dark place, a chosen few have found light...
Who wants Clint Eastwood to play their part?
It's like my favorite response to angry gestures from other drivers on the highway. They give the finger; I wave. They yell angrily; I laugh hysterically. Watching these people self-destruct is more rewarding than "winning" any exchange of gestures or words, or being first in line at the toll booth we're all going to get stuck at in 3 miles.
I just thought I'd post an antidote to this: I have a sign that says "Love you, Cupcake" in my car just for these people. Antagonistic? Yes. Probably more than it needs to be. But honestly, I had one guy that was SO mad at me (he cut me off...) after I held up that sign, his jaw dropped. He then started laughing. We found ourselves at a light, right next to each other. I had my windows down. He looked at me, and yelled "I was gonna ****ing kill you until you held up that sign. Now I'm gonna go home and make the same one. Good Shit, my friend, good shit!"
For some reason, blowing kisses and calling someone Cupcake gets most people severely riled. I guess it's sort of calling their bluff, in a sense...
sorry for thread drift. I is tired. burhurbrglelr
John_Wayne777
11-13-09, 09:12
John, your sarcasm detector is due for the FALL/09 firmware upgrade. ;)
Dude, if you opened my skull up you'd see an abacus in there. Your talk of "firmware" frightens and confuses me.
Dude, if you opened my skull up you'd see an abacus in there. Your talk of "firmware" frightens and confuses me.
OOOoooooooooooooooooohhhhh shiny Abacus beads!
I saw this quote today, and it made me think of this thread:
"Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
--James Burgh
While this is true for the most part, there were many times I deserved a knock to the head because of my stupidity, even ten years ago.
As far as 20 years ago...break out the bat. :eek:
Necropost.
I found myself reading stickies after sharing a link to one. One of those posts lead me to a bunch of stuff I'd never read like this thread, as well as posts I've read many times. It is good to get back to the basics. This is a good thread. It puzzles me why some threads catch fire and others don't.
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