View Full Version : $1500 to spend on hunting/SPR
Mainelymark
01-24-17, 13:42
Hello all. This is my first post. I've been lurking for the last 9 months. In that time I've learned a lot about the AR platform much in part to the knowledge held here in this forum. Bravo Zulu.
I've used firearms for over 30 years but have never had an AR. I never wanted one as I was under the wrongful impression that the 5.56 was insufficient for killing deer. Some would argue that it is, but I I've come to the informed opinion that it is sufficient when used within a certain range and the shot is well placed. I started searching for a caliber that would be mild on recoil for my children to target practice with and eventually hunt coyotes then deer. I have 5 and 8 year old girls as well as a boy who's 10. The 5 year old wants to shoot (hasn't yet) but the 8 & 10 love shooting air rifle and 22lr. My son has his great grand dad's bolt action 20ga that he shot his first turkey with last spring. Hoping that he'd be able to use it this fall for deer, I bought a few boxes of slugs. When I sighted the old gun in I realized that the recoil was quite stout (equal to my 12ga with 3" duck loads). Also, the 20ga has a poly choke on it that led to 6" groups at 20 yards:D. So, as much as I wanted him to hunt, I decided to look for an alternative with less recoil and more accuracy. I've finally settled on a AR with a 18" 1:7 barrel to stabilize the heaviest bullets it can accurately shoot. I will also be using the rifle for medium to longer range target practice as well as coyote hunting.
I'm not interested in building my own. I'm not too concerned about weight as the kids will be firing from a rest. I don't want a "less expensive AR that works just as well". I've researched every offering with an 18" barrel out there and boiled it down to this price range. I'm a buy once cry once type of guy. I feel the price range I've chosen to be the best bang for the buck as far as a rifle that you could bet your life on. Even though that's not the intended purpose of this AR, it is a firearm and being so I want to have faith in it working if things get squirrelly. I've narrowed it down to just a few higher-end rifles. My max on a complete rifle is $1550 (not including optic). I've found these three......
$1400 Daniel Defense m4 v9 s2w 18"-
Mid length gas. CHF 18" barrel (not stainless) that is nitrided (not chrome lined)
Flash hider that I would change out for a muzzle brake
Standard DD trigger that I would be replacing with geissele SSA
$1505 Daniel Defense V7 PRO
Rifle length gas. CFM 18" barrel that is chrome lined
Muzzle brake
Geissele SD3G trigger that I would be replacing for an SSA (3G isn't a trigger for inexperienced shooters)
$1525 Barret rec7 DI
Mid length gas (I believe). 18" stainless match barrel (Krieger provides the blank) I believe it's chrome lined?)
Muzzle brake
ALG ACT trigger that I may keep for a while depending on performance.
Questions:
1 does the mid length gas on the V9's 18" make it more or less desirable? What if it's 10 degrees outside?
2 will the DD nitrided barrel be more accurate than the same profile with chrome lining? How much difference in MOA should I expect between the two?
3 which of the three "should" be most accurate?
4 which (if any) is built more ruggedly?
5 DD has a lifetime warranty against factory defects, Barrett only has 1 year. That kind of bothers me just for the simple fact that I would hope that a manufacturer would have the warranty match the faith they have in the product they produce. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way? Opinions?
6 finally, I'm sure the two are very evenly matched. I wish there was more out there on the rec7 DI cause I really like the looks of that rifle (and it's a Barrett). I know those feelings are irrelevant, but all things being equal precision and durability wise, I'd buy the Barrett.
I thank you for your answers and I'm looking forward to learning more from you all.
I like DD, but have never owned one personally. No experience with Barrett, but they're not exactly a household name in ARs. Maybe some others can chime in with their experience.
If it were me, I'd get this upper:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-18-SS410-KMR-A-15
and this lower, which you can get with SSA pre-installed. I also prefer the grip and stock on the BCMs.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=http://www.gandrtactical.com/
Add this to your list. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=862-790 Of the 3 you listed I would choose the V7 PRO. The 3G trigger isn't dangerous but most don't consider it a prescission trigger. Neither is the SSA.
Hello all. This is my first post. I've been lurking for the last 9 months. In that time I've learned a lot about the AR platform much in part to the knowledge held here in this forum. Bravo Zulu.
I've used firearms for over 30 years but have never had an AR. I never wanted one as I was under the wrongful impression that the 5.56 was insufficient for killing deer. Some would argue that it is, but I I've come to the informed opinion that it is sufficient when used within a certain range and the shot is well placed. I started searching for a caliber that would be mild on recoil for my children to target practice with and eventually hunt coyotes then deer. I have 5 and 8 year old girls as well as a boy who's 10. The 5 year old wants to shoot (hasn't yet) but the 8 & 10 love shooting air rifle and 22lr. My son has his great grand dad's bolt action 20ga that he shot his first turkey with last spring. Hoping that he'd be able to use it this fall for deer, I bought a few boxes of slugs. When I sighted the old gun in I realized that the recoil was quite stout (equal to my 12ga with 3" duck loads). Also, the 20ga has a poly choke on it that led to 6" groups at 20 yards:D. So, as much as I wanted him to hunt, I decided to look for an alternative with less recoil and more accuracy. I've finally settled on a AR with a 18" 1:7 barrel to stabilize the heaviest bullets it can accurately shoot. I will also be using the rifle for medium to longer range target practice as well as coyote hunting.
I'm not interested in building my own. I'm not too concerned about weight as the kids will be firing from a rest. I don't want a "less expensive AR that works just as well". I've researched every offering with an 18" barrel out there and boiled it down to this price range. I'm a buy once cry once type of guy. I feel the price range I've chosen to be the best bang for the buck as far as a rifle that you could bet your life on. Even though that's not the intended purpose of this AR, it is a firearm and being so I want to have faith in it working if things get squirrelly. I've narrowed it down to just a few higher-end rifles. My max on a complete rifle is $1550 (not including optic). I've found these three......
$1400 Daniel Defense m4 v9 s2w 18"-
Mid length gas. CHF 18" barrel (not stainless) that is nitrided (not chrome lined)
Flash hider that I would change out for a muzzle brake
Standard DD trigger that I would be replacing with geissele SSA
$1505 Daniel Defense V7 PRO
Rifle length gas. CFM 18" barrel that is chrome lined
Muzzle brake
Geissele SD3G trigger that I would be replacing for an SSA (3G isn't a trigger for inexperienced shooters)
$1525 Barret rec7 DI
Mid length gas (I believe). 18" stainless match barrel (Krieger provides the blank) I believe it's chrome lined?)
Muzzle brake
ALG ACT trigger that I may keep for a while depending on performance.
Questions:
1 does the mid length gas on the V9's 18" make it more or less desirable? What if it's 10 degrees outside?
2 will the DD nitrided barrel be more accurate than the same profile with chrome lining? How much difference in MOA should I expect between the two?
3 which of the three "should" be most accurate?
4 which (if any) is built more ruggedly?
5 DD has a lifetime warranty against factory defects, Barrett only has 1 year. That kind of bothers me just for the simple fact that I would hope that a manufacturer would have the warranty match the faith they have in the product they produce. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way? Opinions?
6 finally, I'm sure the two are very evenly matched. I wish there was more out there on the rec7 DI cause I really like the looks of that rifle (and it's a Barrett). I know those feelings are irrelevant, but all things being equal precision and durability wise, I'd buy the Barrett.
I thank you for your answers and I'm looking forward to learning more from you all.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170124/50e8a82fb10970d827eff71e440c516f.jpg
Personally. Barrett, I'd stay away from in the AR market. Great name just not really a known quantity in the AR world. DD is a great rifle. But so is BCM or Colt. BCM has an 18" gun as well. Might be something to look at.
In reference to my pic. That's a BCM 16", cold hammer forged. Chrome lined barrel. 1/7. 40 yards. 62gr Barnes TSX. She ran about 20 yards and crumpled. Her left lung was about obliterated. That gun slams a 4" steel plate at 350 with m193, 855, anything I feed it really.
Question. Why an 18" gun? Velocity is not drastically different. If you're shooting match ammo past 300. Sure. That velocity will come into play. The rifle length gas system will also seem softer.
Me personally, you're paying 200-400 more for 2" of barrel. That's not going to matter when you shoot a deer. Don't think I could morally shoot a deer at more than 150 with a .223. I slammed a pig at 200 last weekend, lung shot. She ran 500 yards and was still alive when I found her 20 minutes later. Now I know pigs are tougher, a lot tougher than deer but you get my point.
If you want 18, cool. Just some food for thought.
Some will argue that nitrided barrels are more accurate than CL. To me that's a moot point with advancements in today's tech and the uniformity of applying CL.
Just my.02
Edit: the blood up front is from her nose, not the shot
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Yeah if we could talk you into 16" then that opens up a lot of options. You could the BCM hammer forged or colt combat unit or sionics, centurion etc.
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Just curious, why 18" instead of 16" barrel?
I see that others have brought up the length issue before I posted.
If you can live with 16", I'd go along these lines:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-w-B-p/bcm-urg-mid16-ss410-kmr-a-15ib.htm
and then buy the lower of your choosing.
I'm running a Geissele SD-E in my hunting rifles and I would recommend it. My son used one last year at 9yrs old to kill his first deer. We practiced a bit so he got the hang of the trigger and he did a great job when it was time to close the deal...
I have another question: have you considered the fact that those rifles come with no sights installed? You're going to have to budget for that too.
I have another question: have you considered the fact that those rifles come with no sights installed? You're going to have to budget for that too.
I think that's the budget for the rifle plus scope...
My guess....
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Mainelymark
01-24-17, 15:31
[QUOTE=sva01;2444756]Just curious, why 18" instead of 16" barrel?
Thanks for the help fellas. I was wanting the 18" over the 16" primarily for the profile/heavier barrel rather than length. Secondly for the bit more fps at longer range. I just figured that a longer heavier barrel should be a bit more accurate especially over 300 yds (target not for deer). All shots on deer would be under 100.
I am only interested in a complete rifle. I'm sure it's irrelevant, but I'm afraid of having slop, even minimal, between the upper and lower. More than anything it's because it would bother my OCD. And....I figure there's a reason folks glass bed their bolt guns, ....they want the most rigid platform possible.
I've looked into the BCM RECCE 18 KMR-A. I'ts a 1:8 instead of 1:7. Dunno if that matters on a heavy bullet or not. I've also read that the BCM barrels can be hit or miss. Lastly, I can't find one in stock anywhere online.
That's my budget for the rifle alone. Thanks
I think that's the budget for the rifle plus scope...
My guess....
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Good guess, but he listed rifles costing $1400-1500.
I'd def pick one of the DD. Given the price of the Barrett, along with their rep, it makes no sense why you don't see them more. That alone is a flag. They may be fine, however.
I've never heard ANYTHING BCM being "hit or miss".
As far as accuracy, at the range you stated, you won't notice much if any difference during a practical application such as hunting.
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Mainelymark
01-24-17, 16:46
The BCM RECCE 18 seems to fit my wants perfectly. How's BCM's attention to detail compared with DD? If I could handle 1000 rifles from each manufacturer, which would have the most consistent fit & finish? I ask because there's very little chance that I'd be able to handle the BCM before buying. Thanks again fellas
[QUOTE=sva01;2444756]Just curious, why 18" instead of 16" barrel?
Thanks for the help fellas. I was wanting the 18" over the 16" primarily for the profile/heavier barrel rather than length. Secondly for the bit more fps at longer range. I just figured that a longer heavier barrel should be a bit more accurate especially over 300 yds (target not for deer). All shots on deer would be under 100.
I am only interested in a complete rifle. I'm sure it's irrelevant, but I'm afraid of having slop, even minimal, between the upper and lower. More than anything it's because it would bother my OCD. And....I figure there's a reason folks glass bed their bolt guns, ....they want the most rigid platform possible.
I've looked into the BCM RECCE 18 KMR-A. I'ts a 1:8 instead of 1:7. Dunno if that matters on a heavy bullet or not. I've also read that the BCM barrels can be hit or miss. Lastly, I can't find one in stock anywhere online.
300 yards is a chip shot for any length barrel. Even for a 12". If you aren't shooting at over 600 you are worrying about nothing. If you have never shot an AR before you are also worrying about nothing. 16, 18, 22 isn't going to help or hurt you.
A complete rifle isn't going to guaranty you a rock solid fit between the upper and lower. Even if it comes tight after 15 or 20 times opening and closing it won't be tight anymore. If that bothers you stick to a bolt gun.
1 in 7 or 8 isn't a deal breaker either. All barrels are hit and miss to a degree. You will find 1/7 barrels that like 50 grain pills and 1/9 that like 77's. It's up to you to find what a barrel likes.
Mainelymark: I get the OCD, but bedding the action of a bolt gun has little relevance to building an accurate AR.
Ask yourself this question, if the lower of an AR has that much impact on accuracy, why do White Oak Armament and Compass Lake Engineering, two of the big names in service/match rifle competition, focus on selling uppers, rather than complete rifles?
The obvious answer is that the accuracy of an AR lives in the upper.
If you are worried about minor wiggle use an accu-wedge (the name is mainly marketing) or get a #21 o-ring (hardware store) and put it around the front lug of the receiver.
I would feel confident that you will get good performance out of a quality upper and virtually ANY lower receiver.
As others have said even a complete gun doesn't guarantee there will be no wiggle. You also avoid the tax by not getting a complete gun.
You could always get the upper of your choice and then build something like a mega lower which will come with the tensioning screw to adjust the tightness between the receivers. But
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Mainelymark
01-24-17, 18:00
You guys are great. Thanks. So, wiggle ain't a big deal. 1:7 vs 1:8 aint a big deal. Barrel length aint a big deal.....
What about barrel profile? I was going for the DD's 18" to get the heavier barrel. If it really doesn't matter for accuracy, why do target rifles or mk12's have a thicker barrel?
All this opens up many more possibilities. What do you guys think about the BCM recce 16 KMR A precision vs say a DDM4 16"? Which would most likely be more accurate? The recce has a heavier barrel.
Just came in to add to the echo. If I was buying right now for your purpose, it would be a bcm recce ss 16".
My friend has an 18 that is very accurate, but heavy. 2" of steel off the front is noticeable, the velocity won't be at those distances (300).
Fit and finish is irrelevant and not garunteed, no matter how you buy. AR is not a bolt gun. Do not confuse the 2 - completely different ways of achieving results.
What kind of accuracy so you want? Don't say "most accurate possible", give us a number to quantify your expectations. Give us a range.
As far as dd cs bcm, I'd choose bcm. Thats based off perception I've picked up on here over the years. I have friends with rifles from both, they both perform well.
BrigandTwoFour
01-24-17, 18:28
You guys are great. Thanks. So, wiggle ain't a big deal. 1:7 vs 1:8 aint a big deal. Barrel length aint a big deal.....
What about barrel profile? I was going for the DD's 18" to get the heavier barrel. If it really doesn't matter for accuracy, why do target rifles or mk12's have a thicker barrel?
All this opens up many more possibilities. What do you guys think about the BCM recce 16 KMR A precision vs say a DDM4 16"? Which would most likely be more accurate? The recce has a heavier barrel.
Barrel profile is primarily a balance between weight and heat tolerance. There are other factors in there like harmonics and whip, but they are minor enough that 99% of users aren't going to notice them. Lighter profiles are for rifles that will be carried often, shot moderately, and do not have a high need for sustained precision. Heavy profiles are for rifles that need to sustain higher levels of precision over longer strings of shots, or will see high levels of heat in general.
If you don't plan on carrying the rifle in the field, there isn't much harm in getting the heavier (or longer) barrel just because. If you are looking for a balance between comfortable carry and precision, then the answer lies somewhere in the middle (say, a hybrid profile like the ones from Criterion, for example).
Frankly, there isn't going to be much a difference between the two you posted. I tend towards BCM because I engage in a bit of brand loyalty. Both companies are quality, and both rifles are more accurate than 99% of the people shooting them.
Edit to add: You mention hunting, which implies a field rifle. Be careful of using stainless barrels in very low temperatures. 416R stainless will fare better in cold temperatures than 410, but either one will require a heavier profile.
Outlander Systems
01-24-17, 18:47
OP, what is your expectation of precision?
Ive hunted whitetail and mule deer with 16" and 20" ARs.
My current and favorite hunting setup is a 20" CHF PSA barrel with a shaved pinned FSB under a 15" ALG rail, on a A5 lower with ALG ACT trigger, and a Redfield 2-7x33.
I much prefer the 20" because its way easier on the ears (your hunting party will appreciate it more than a 16") and that tiny bit of extra velocity helps the already barely adequate (for four legged beasts anyway) .223.
Also, the rifle gas length has more desirable recoil characteristics, its easier for me to keep the animal in the glass on running shots than with 16" guns.
Of the rifles OP listed, Id go with the Daniel Defense 18" with the rifle length gas.
Mainelymark
01-24-17, 19:11
Edit to add: You mention hunting, which implies a field rifle. Be careful of using stainless barrels in very low temperatures. 416R stainless will fare better in cold temperatures than 410, but either one will require a heavier profile.[/QUOTE]
So, I'm very interested in the Recce 16 & 18 kmr precision models. They have the 410 SS that you mentioned. What exactly is the issue with the stainless in cold weather?
Good guess, but he listed rifles costing $1400-1500.
Yes, because that is what his budget is for the rifle.
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Mainelymark
01-24-17, 19:19
OP, what is your expectation of precision?
I'd love for it to shoot under 1.5 moa. I have had a few and currently have a very accurate bolt gun that's sub moa. I have also hunted (years ago) with a 30-30 that shot 3-4" at 100yds on a good day. An inaccurate rifle frustrates me. I like the idea of having my bullets POI be where I intended it to be.
I'd love for it to shoot under 1.5 moa. I have had a few and currently have a very accurate bolt gun that's sub moa. I have also hunted (years ago) with a 30-30 that shot 3-4" at 100yds on a good day. An inaccurate rifle frustrates me. I like the idea of having my bullets POI be where I intended it to be.
Any of those rifles should do that no problem with good ammo.
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Yes, because that is what his budget is for the rifle.
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Okay, your post made me think you meant "rifle AND scope" for 1500. My bad.
Outlander Systems
01-24-17, 19:53
Roger that. That's not an unreasonable expectation with quality ammo.
Given that your looking at DD, have you considered the V11 Pro? On paper, it looks like it would be up your alley, and you could sell off the goofy trigger for the SSA you want.
I'd love for it to shoot under 1.5 moa. I have had a few and currently have a very accurate bolt gun that's sub moa. I have also hunted (years ago) with a 30-30 that shot 3-4" at 100yds on a good day. An inaccurate rifle frustrates me. I like the idea of having my bullets POI be where I intended it to be.
Mainelymark
01-24-17, 20:03
Roger that. That's not an unreasonable expectation with quality ammo.
Given that your looking at DD, have you considered the V11 Pro? On paper, it looks like it would be up your alley, and you could sell off the goofy trigger for the SSA you want.
I have considered the v11 pro. V7 vs v11 key mod vs m lok doesn't matter to me as I have no plans on mounting anything on it. Between those it would be whichever is cheaper.
Outlander Systems
01-24-17, 20:08
Roger. Cant go wrong either way.
I have considered the v11 pro. V7 vs v11 key mod vs m lok doesn't matter to me as I have no plans on mounting anything on it. Between those it would be whichever is cheaper.
I have considered the v11 pro. V7 vs v11 key mod vs m lok doesn't matter to me as I have no plans on mounting anything on it. Between those it would be whichever is cheaper.
Go with MLOK over KeyMod, if given an option. It's much stronger and robust, and will likely have a longer longevity due to Magpul. backing it. Google "KeyMod failure" before making a decision (also search for "M-LOK failure" afterwards, for comparison).
BrigandTwoFour
01-24-17, 20:25
Edit to add: You mention hunting, which implies a field rifle. Be careful of using stainless barrels in very low temperatures. 416R stainless will fare better in cold temperatures than 410, but either one will require a heavier profile.
So, I'm very interested in the Recce 16 & 18 kmr precision models. They have the 410 SS that you mentioned. What exactly is the issue with the stainless in cold weather?
Rather than rehash, give this thread regarding stainless barrels a read.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141291-Stainless-Steel-Barrels-410-vs-416-vs-416R
In all honesty, you are probably fine. The kinds of concerns I mentioned are the reason why stainless barrels tend to be heavier profiles. The extra mass helps overcome the material shortcomings.
Mainelymark
01-24-17, 20:47
Rather than rehash, give this thread regarding stainless barrels a read.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141291-Stainless-Steel-Barrels-410-vs-416-vs-416R
In all honesty, you are probably fine. The kinds of concerns I mentioned are the reason why stainless barrels tend to be heavier profiles. The extra mass helps overcome the material shortcomings.
Thank you sir. I actually did read up on the stainless cold temp topic after it was initially posted but this link provided much more info. Temps in my neck of the woods seldom approach the single digits so l am not concerned especially given that the rifle I'm looking at have pretty substantial barrels.
So......if I were to buy a complete assambled upper and a complete lower, both from BCM, I'd be good to go? I'm looking at the complete SS410 18" upper and the SPR MK 12 upper. I buy one of those and throw it on say a BCM lower and that's it? Anything missing from a complete upper and lower that I'd need? No special tools? Should they fit together snugly being that they weren't assembled together at the factory? Thanks fellas.
So......if I were to buy a complete assambled upper and a complete lower, both from BCM, I'd be good to go? I'm looking at the complete SS410 18" upper and the SPR MK 12 upper. I buy one of those and throw it on say a BCM lower and that's it? Anything missing from a complete upper and lower that I'd need? No special tools? Should they fit together snugly being that they weren't assembled together at the factory? Thanks fellas.
I'm a little late on this thread, but I just wanted to add to what others have said about the BCM rifles. I have several... I can sincerely say you will not be disappointed.
This is my general purpose/go to/rabbit/coyote gun.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/Firearms/i-vCH5XRC/0/L/MAX_5394-L.jpg (http://www.max713photography.com/Firearms/Firearms/i-vCH5XRC/A)
It's all BCM, 16" enhanced lightweight upper.
I can also honestly say that this gun will shoot 1/3" groups at 50 yards, consistently. (My practicing distance for this rifle)
It is boringly reliable, and just plain runs.
To answer your questions above: Yes, you will be good to go. Putting an assembled upper, on an assembled lower is as simple as pushing the take down pins out and back in again, with your fingers.
The "snugness" of their fit will not be any better, or worse, than a factory assembled rifle. But yes, they will fit together well.
nightchief
01-24-17, 21:29
So......if I were to buy a complete assambled upper and a complete lower, both from BCM, I'd be good to go? I'm looking at the complete SS410 18" upper and the SPR MK 12 upper. I buy one of those and throw it on say a BCM lower and that's it? Anything missing from a complete upper and lower that I'd need? No special tools? Should they fit together snugly being that they weren't assembled together at the factory? Thanks fellas.
Buying a lower from directly from BCM used to be a bit of an exercise (read there rules for ordering one). G&R Tactical, Primary Arms and Rainier Arms are all sellers of BCM complete lowers and are straight forward to deal with. I've had good experiences with all three.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM
http://www.primaryarms.com/bravo-company-mfg-complete-lower-receiver-assembly-gunfighter-stock-bcm-lrg-stk-mod-0-blk
https://www.rainierarms.com/bcm-lower-group-w-mod-0-stock-black
NC
Mainelymark
01-24-17, 21:48
Thank you Max. She's a beaut! If my wife catches me setting up photos of my new rifle on some distressed wood boards with just the right lighting she's gonna make fun of me (I'll have to do it in the basement).
nightchief, I'll look into that right now.
BTW, what trigger comes on the BCM lower?
Thank you Max. She's a beaut! If my wife catches me setting up photos of my new rifle on some distressed wood boards with just the right lighting she's gonna make fun of me (I'll have to do it in the basement).
nightchief, I'll look into that right now.
BTW, what trigger comes on the BCM lower?
Either mil spec or there PNT
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I have considered the v11 pro. V7 vs v11 key mod vs m lok doesn't matter to me as I have no plans on mounting anything on it.
Lol...you have no idea how this "AR disease" works. Good luck with that plan. [emoji14]
Anyway, to follow up on some of the points in this thread, I hunt deer with an AR. Granted, mine is .308, but I hunt at the ranges you listed. 16" pencil barrel. When humping to the tripod, the weight savings is appreciated.
Typically, it MUCH prefers a 168+ gr. Bullet. Doesn't like the 147-150 pills at all. It's a 1.5-2.5 gun depending on me, and the deer don't seem to notice.
Somebody mentioned noise and the shorter barrels...yes, this bitch is loud. My hunting partners know it's me when I let one go.
Related to the rifles and caliber you've chosen, I'd say BCM or DD will serve you well.
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Thank you Max. She's a beaut! If my wife catches me setting up photos of my new rifle on some distressed wood boards with just the right lighting she's gonna make fun of me (I'll have to do it in the basement).
nightchief, I'll look into that right now.
BTW, what trigger comes on the BCM lower?
The best way to go is buy the upper from BCM and lower from Grant. If you buy the lower from Grant you get to pick a trigger, grip and stock as options. BCM offers different muzzle devices and charging handles handles as options.
Make sure to add the bcg and charging handle to upper (I like the mod4).
You could always add a silencer down the road if your worried about sound. If that's a possibility, even more reason to go 16".
Mainelymark
01-25-17, 11:22
The best way to go is buy the upper from BCM and lower from Grant. If you buy the lower from Grant you get to pick a trigger, grip and stock as options. BCM offers different muzzle devices and charging handles handles as options.
Cool. Thanks medic. I was wondering if I might find a BCM lower other than the standard one with standard parts. Did you mean gandrtactical? I'm not familiar with "grant". Sounds like an auto correct snafu.
Cool. Thanks medic. I was wondering if I might find a BCM lower other than the standard one with standard parts. Did you mean gandrtactical? I'm not familiar with "grant". Sounds like an auto correct snafu.
Grant = gandrtactical
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Mainelymark
01-25-17, 14:37
Gonna go with BCM complete upper from bcm and lower from gandr. Gonna be one of the following uppers and a BCM lower with geissele SSA-E trigger. Lower is $620 w/ Geissele.
#1 SS410 16" KMR A 15", bcm bcg, bcm mod 4 ch, bcm mod 0 comp $903, $1523 w/lower
#2 SS410 16" everything the same with "ionbond" black coating $973, $1593 w/lower
#3 SS410 18" rifle length gas, everything else the same as #1 $988, $1608 w/lower
#4 MK12 18" (same as #3 with ionbond black as well as pinned gas block) $1101, $1721 w/lower
As you can see, i will exceed my $1500 limit with a few of these which will cut into my optic budget. Are there any unnecessary parts that i could remove from list to lower the price? Obviously a 16" is cheaper. But I watched a youtube vid of a guy shooting the recce 16 precision (ss410 complete rifle) and it shot great at 800yds until the barrel heated up (20rds) then he started having accuracy issues. Will there be any difference with the 18" with the thicker mk12 profile? (Video was titled "bcm ss410 16" ar15 at 800 yards").
These picks include the bcm comp. I assumed a comp or brake would be good for the youngin's. How bout standard flash hider?
Maybe keep the stock trigger ($210 less) or go with cheaper g2s trigger? ($80 less)
Keeping the stock trigger would put those rifles at $1313-$1510.
Thanks fellas
BrigandTwoFour
01-25-17, 15:06
Gonna go with BCM complete upper from bcm and lower from gandr. Gonna be one of the following uppers and a BCM lower with geissele SSA-E trigger. Lower is $620 w/ Geissele.
#1 SS410 16" KMR A 15", bcm bcg, bcm mod 4 ch, bcm mod 0 comp $903, $1523 w/lower
#2 SS410 16" everything the same with "ionbond" black coating $973, $1593 w/lower
#3 SS410 18" rifle length gas, everything else the same as #1 $988, $1608 w/lower
#4 MK12 18" (same as #3 with ionbond black as well as pinned gas block) $1101, $1721 w/lower
As you can see, i will exceed my $1500 limit with a few of these which will cut into my optic budget. Are there any unnecessary parts that i could remove from list to lower the price? Obviously a 16" is cheaper. But I watched a youtube vid of a guy shooting the recce 16 precision (ss410 complete rifle) and it shot great at 800yds until the barrel heated up (20rds) then he started having accuracy issues. Will there be any difference with the 18" with the thicker mk12 profile? (Video was titled "bcm ss410 16" ar15 at 800 yards").
These picks include the bcm comp. I assumed a comp or brake would be good for the youngin's. How bout standard flash hider?
Maybe keep the stock trigger ($210 less) or go with cheaper g2s trigger? ($80 less)
Keeping the stock trigger would put those rifles at $1313-$1510.
Thanks fellas
Good choices,
IMO, shots opening up after a 20 round string will not change much (if at all) between a 16" and 18" barrels. The primary difference between them, aside from weight, is a slightly smoother recoil impulse from the rifle length gas of the 18" barrel as well as a small jump in velocity. In practical use, you probably wouldn't really notice. If you're not into clone builds, strike the Mk12 upper. It is targeted at the enthusiast market that wants as close of a copy of actual military rifles as it can get. If that's not your thing, the Mk12 upper isn't doing anything for you that the other three you listed aren't already doing.
The BCM comp is nifty, but going with the standard birdcage will suit you just fine for a long time. None of these guns will recoil much, and the A2 birdcage will be slightly quieter. The BCM comp, like other comps, really only comes into play during rapid fire from an unsupported position. If you're shooting off of a bench with slow fire, it's not doing anything for you.
The Geissele SSA-E is a fine trigger (I have one, as well as an SSA and SD-E), but you would be good to go without it. The PNT trigger that comes with the lower is a good mil spec trigger that you can learn the platform with. Used the saved money towards a better optic. After time, once you've really learned the rifle, then look at a nice trigger from Geissele or the others. Another option, if you don't mind waiting, is the Larue MBT. It's $124 if you don't mind placing a backorder and waiting (I ordered one on November 28th and it shipped today). It has a good reputation for being slightly better than the SSA, but not as light as the SSA-E series. I can't say more until I have it in my rifle with testing.
After all of this is done, make sure to invest in quality ammunition. It's a waste to shoot barrels like that with cheap bulk 55gr ammo. Stick to the 69gr - 77gr class of match ammo. It will cost more, but you will get the precision results you're looking for. If you just want to go out blasting at things, you could go without the SS410 barrel and be just fine with a BFH or Standard.
The G2S is a solid trigger and a great value for the money.
The G2S is a solid trigger and a great value for the money.
Just got mine installed last week, went from an ALG ACT.
So far it is a major improvement and I am really digging it!
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Love my g2s. I would do that at ditch the comp and you're pretty much back on budget.
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Gonna go with BCM complete upper from bcm and lower from gandr. Gonna be one of the following uppers and a BCM lower with geissele SSA-E trigger. Lower is $620 w/ Geissele.
#1 SS410 16" KMR A 15", bcm bcg, bcm mod 4 ch, bcm mod 0 comp $903, $1523 w/lower
#2 SS410 16" everything the same with "ionbond" black coating $973, $1593 w/lower
#3 SS410 18" rifle length gas, everything else the same as #1 $988, $1608 w/lower
#4 MK12 18" (same as #3 with ionbond black as well as pinned gas block) $1101, $1721 w/lower
As you can see, i will exceed my $1500 limit with a few of these which will cut into my optic budget. Are there any unnecessary parts that i could remove from list to lower the price? Obviously a 16" is cheaper. But I watched a youtube vid of a guy shooting the recce 16 precision (ss410 complete rifle) and it shot great at 800yds until the barrel heated up (20rds) then he started having accuracy issues. Will there be any difference with the 18" with the thicker mk12 profile? (Video was titled "bcm ss410 16" ar15 at 800 yards").
These picks include the bcm comp. I assumed a comp or brake would be good for the youngin's. How bout standard flash hider?
Maybe keep the stock trigger ($210 less) or go with cheaper g2s trigger? ($80 less)
Keeping the stock trigger would put those rifles at $1313-$1510.
Thanks fellas
For your use I'd pick #3. I wouldn't pay $85 for the Mod 0 comp. There is little recoil to reduce and it doesn't do much over the A2. The kids won't know the difference if you don't tell them. The increased noise is probably more intimidating than recoil impulse. Spend once and keep the SSE.
Mainelymark
01-25-17, 15:44
Thank you brigand for taking the time to answer all my questions. One last thing regarding which rifle/accessories. Given that I want my 8 year old girl to enjoy shooting this, would the rifle length gas and comp cause a noticeable difference in recoil? It'd be a half pound heavier as well. Also, the only differences (besides color) between the 18" ss410 and 18" mk12 is that the latter has a pinned gas block. Is that a necessity?
BrigandTwoFour
01-25-17, 15:54
Thank you brigand for taking the time to answer all my questions. One last thing regarding which rifle/accessories. Given that I want my 8 year old girl to enjoy shooting this, would the rifle length gas and comp cause a noticeable difference in recoil? It'd be a half pound heavier as well. Also, the only differences (besides color) between the 18" ss410 and 18" mk12 is that the latter has a pinned gas block. Is that a necessity?
The rifle length gas will do more to increase shooting enjoyment than the comp. Comps, strictly speaking, are designed to keep muzzles stable during strings of fire (think quick split times). If you're sitting on a bench or in the prone, you won't really notice much a difference between the A2 and the BCM comp.
If you want to reduce recoil, you would need a muzzle brake. Brakes, like the SJC titan, reduce reward travel while increasing the perception of noise and shock. Honestly, brakes aren't all that useful on the AR-15 platform, and would probably scare your daughter due to the volume and shockwave. The main reason you see muzzle brakes on ARs is either 1) The user doesn't know any better, 2) The user is trying to reduce felt recoil to the maximum extent possible, or 3) The brake is part of a suppressor mount and serves as a "first line" blast baffle to help extend the life of the suppressor.
Hybrid systems like the AFAB will do a bit of everything while not dramatically making more noise, but you're going to pay for it. At this point, don't worry about muzzle devices. The A2 is perfect for your uses.
Pinned gas blocks are a durability concern for hard use rifles. They are most important on exposed gas blocks like the fixed triangle front sight, or if a low pro gas block is visible beyond the end of a handguard. This configuration was common on the Mk12. You can see two examples of what I'm talking about in this photo, with a PRI folding sight gas block and a low pro gas block outside of the rail.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s143/crowdlg/SDC10089.jpg
If the gas block is inside the handguard, and therefore protected, the pinning is more of a bonus than being necessary. If BCM was having problems with their non-pinned gas blocks coming off, we would be hearing about it.
I'm not going to say you don't need a pinned gas block. They certainly have their place, but whether or not you pay extra for one should be part of an overall decision process and not because it's there as an option.
Mainelymark
01-25-17, 17:54
Thanks again brigand. So, no need for a pinned gas block. I want the 16" middy but if the reduction in recoil with an 18" rifle length is somewhat significant, I'll go that route. I haven't found any info on mid vs rifle recoil wise. There's quite a bit on carbine vs mid though. Would the percentage in felt recoil reduction between a mid and a carbine be similar to the difference between a rifle and mid? My girls tough but I want her to have fun and not develop a flinch. Thanks
BrigandTwoFour
01-25-17, 18:16
Thanks again brigand. So, no need for a pinned gas block. I want the 16" middy but if the reduction in recoil with an 18" rifle length is somewhat significant, I'll go that route. I haven't found any info on mid vs rifle recoil wise. There's quite a bit on carbine vs mid though. Would the percentage in felt recoil reduction between a mid and a carbine be similar to the difference between a rifle and mid? My girls tough but I want her to have fun and not develop a flinch. Thanks
IMO, the reduction from carbine to mid is greater than from mid to rifle. The 16" mid is very pleasant to shoot. If you want the 16" but are hanging onto the 18" for recoil purposes, then go with the 16" upper. When going between my 16" middy and 20" government rifles, it's not really a question of recoil at all; they are both very soft shooting. The real benefit, to me and my style of shooting, is that the 20" has a more forward balance that reduces muzzle movement. Again, though, that's me. I spend a lot of time with a shooting sling and sitting in uncomfortable positions. If I shoot off of a pack or rest, there is very little difference in felt recoil against my shoulder.
With ARs, I find that flinches come more from the noise and blast than the recoil.
Gonna go with BCM complete upper from bcm and lower from gandr. Gonna be one of the following uppers and a BCM lower with geissele SSA-E trigger. Lower is $620 w/ Geissele.
#1 SS410 16" KMR A 15", bcm bcg, bcm mod 4 ch, bcm mod 0 comp $903, $1523 w/lower
#2 SS410 16" everything the same with "ionbond" black coating $973, $1593 w/lower
#3 SS410 18" rifle length gas, everything else the same as #1 $988, $1608 w/lower
#4 MK12 18" (same as #3 with ionbond black as well as pinned gas block) $1101, $1721 w/lower
As you can see, i will exceed my $1500 limit with a few of these which will cut into my optic budget. Are there any unnecessary parts that i could remove from list to lower the price? Obviously a 16" is cheaper. But I watched a youtube vid of a guy shooting the recce 16 precision (ss410 complete rifle) and it shot great at 800yds until the barrel heated up (20rds) then he started having accuracy issues. Will there be any difference with the 18" with the thicker mk12 profile? (Video was titled "bcm ss410 16" ar15 at 800 yards").
These picks include the bcm comp. I assumed a comp or brake would be good for the youngin's. How bout standard flash hider?
Maybe keep the stock trigger ($210 less) or go with cheaper g2s trigger? ($80 less)
Keeping the stock trigger would put those rifles at $1313-$1510.
Thanks fellas
For what it's worth man, I have a PNT trigger. The stock BCM trigger now, its comparable to the ALG ACT trigger. For a stock trigger it's pretty bueno. Might be something to look into. Save money. Then step up to the Geissele SSA or what ever trigger you end up on.
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Mainelymark
01-25-17, 19:20
Thanks mballz. I'm gonna go pnt. Pretty darn sure it'll be choice #2. 16" ionbond black. Now I gotta research glass a bit. I guess another thread is in order.
Thank you all for the help. I'll make sure to update after my purchase. Might be the end of February before she's set up.
Thanks mballz. I'm gonna go pnt. Pretty darn sure it'll be choice #2. 16" ionbond black. Now I gotta research glass a bit. I guess another thread is in order.
Thank you all for the help. I'll make sure to update after my purchase. Might be the end of February before she's set up.
Awesome man. Glad we could all help! What kind of optic you looking at LPVO? Or a little higher on the magnification range? Also what kind of budget are you working with for glass?
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If I may, if you're going to buy the BCM Mk12, please keep in mind two things:
The BCM does not come with the Swan Sleeve pictured in the photos (that's an extra $300)
The BCM is not an actual Mk12 clone - wrong barrel, wrong muzzle device, wrong gas block, charging handle is wrong unless you pay to upgrade it, wrong trigger if you get the lower
If you like the BCM because you like BCM, great. If you're trying to buy a Mk12 clone, look at PRI, HCS, or Centurion Arms. PRI specifically is few hundred cheaper for the upper and is an actual clone using an actual Mk12 barrel.
Mainelymark
01-26-17, 12:02
Looking at a hunting scope that I could use for target as well. Would love a 2-10 power but I don't think I'll find one in my budget ($350). So far thinking about a Weaver GS tactical or leupold mark AR.
Thanks Skyyr. I am aware of that now. I have no interest in a clone, I just figured an mk12 "type" setup would be inherently more accurate than a thinner barrelled carbine. That was the only reason I was interested in the DD PRO, the 18" S2W heavier barrel and the fact that DD isn't currently making a rifle with a 16" S2W.
After one of the fellas here posted about the BCM 16" SS410 I looked it up and with everyones help saw that it would probably be the best of both worlds for me.
You can save monew on a scope... skip illumination and go for a narrow magnification range and you should be able to get a decent scope . For instance, look at a 3x9.
BrigandTwoFour
01-26-17, 13:53
Looking at a hunting scope that I could use for target as well. Would love a 2-10 power but I don't think I'll find one in my budget ($350). So far thinking about a Weaver GS tactical or leupold mark AR.
I know this is more suited for an optics thread, but you already brought it up.
The price bracket you mentioned can be tough for quality. There's nothing wrong with the ones you mentioned, but I'll offer a few more options that might meet your needs well.
SWFA SS fixed 6x42 ($299)
https://swfa.com/optics/browse/riflescopes/swfa-ss-6x42-tactical-riflescope-1.html
The SS series are known to be a great balance of quality, durability, and price. The fixed 6x magnification gives you enough to reach out to all the practical ranges of your rifle, while also giving you enough field of view for hunting. By removing the mechanisms required for changing magnifications, the scope can be made tougher and more inexpensively.
If you can stretch a bit, the SWFA SS3-15x42 packs a lot of usable features into an affordable package ($450)
https://swfa.com/catalog/product/view/id/117116/category/6896/
Vortex 1-6x24 Strike Eagle package ($350, includes mount)
https://swfa.com/optics/browse/riflescopes/vortex-1-6x24-strike-eagle-30mm-rifle-scope-kit.html
Looking at a hunting scope that I could use for target as well. Would love a 2-10 power but I don't think I'll find one in my budget ($350). So far thinking about a Weaver GS tactical or leupold mark AR.
In that range you can look at the Vortex Diamondback Tacticals. If you want more of a traditional scope with adjustable turrets. You're going to be hard pressed to get quality in that range. Able to be had but difficult for sure.
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