Annoying!!!

[adh]

Went to my local PD (I live in a small Suburb outside San Antonio, Texas) for CLEO signature for a form one rather than going to the Bexar County Sheriff's Dept.

Officer calls me this morning to advise me that chief will not sign because city attorney advised him not to because Texas Penal Code says it's against the law for me to manufacture SBR...I guess the city attorney did not read any further than section (a)

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.

[Robb Jensen]

Go the trust route! ;)

[markm]

Go the trust route! ;)

It's not even funny how much easier the trust route is compared to all that running around with photos and prints and shit.

Once you have your trust set up, you can literally make an NFA purchase and have the papers in the mail the same day.

[MisterWilson]

To hell with getting fingerprinted like a criminal,

To hell with getting photographed like a criminal,

To hell with asking "permission" of yet another damned authority figure,

MAKE A TRUST.

Quicken Willmaker is the way to go. Best $20 I've ever spent.

[Verbal Kint]

It's not even funny how much easier the trust route is compared to all that running around with photos and prints and shit.

Once you have your trust set up, you can literally make an NFA purchase and have the papers in the mail the same day.

+1

I don't know why anyone would choose not to go this route. So much easier and streamlined. :)

[adh]

OK....I think you've convinced me....Quicken Willmaker
ETA, I guess I will need to re-request my form 1 paper work from ATF as the two copies supplied have my info already filled in and I guess that I will need to have the trust info instead

[MisterWilson]

Good choice. :D

Here, allow me to help, here's the phone number for the ATF's NFA branch:

(304) 616-4500

You can buy a copy of quicken off Ebay but it'll probably be a pirated copy like mine was...

Still worked though.

[adh]

quick question on the trust. What type of trust does one create? A revocable living trust, and irrevocable trust, etc.

[MisterWilson]

Revocable Living Trust.

[ST911]

Officer calls me this morning to advise me that chief will not sign because city attorney advised him not to because Texas Penal Code says it's against the law for me to manufacture SBR...I guess the city attorney did not read any further than section (a)

Trust is a good option.

Call the City Attorney and talk to him directly.


Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.

Interesting construction of the statute. The language makes it unlawful, and provides for a defense of NFA compliance. Language that made it lawful, contingent upon NFA compliance would be more desirable.

[adh]

yeah..the wording is terrible

[bigthunder223]

TRUST!

[bigthunder223]

TRUST!
I learned about the trust option on this forum as well.I use to spend weeks trying to get a CLEO signature.With a trust it is a much easier process.You will not regret it.

[adh]

Well, got quicken will maker off ebay for about $20. New in the wrapper. Took all of 10-15 minutes to create the trust last night. Awaiting my new form 1s to fill out and send in now. I guess I can still use the certificate of compliance that I already completed.

[adh]

OK now two trust questions. The manufacturer on the form one is now my trust correct? So the "Revocable Living Trust of 'my name here'"? or is "Living Trust of 'my name here'" good enough? On the trust document the trust name is the "Revocable Living Trust of 'my name here'"

Also, I assume that the lower must now be engrave with "Revocable Living Trust of 'my name here'" instead of "my name, city and state"?

Thanks for the help. It's a shame that the lower will have to go back to Orion Arms now to have the additional engraving done:(

[bigthunder223]

Place the name of the trust, as it appears on the trust document,on the form one.
You do not have to engrave your NFA weapons.Some people prefer to do this.However,it is not required by law.The weapon is identified by the serial number.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

MAKE A TRUST.
Quicken Willmaker is the way to go. Best $20 I've ever spent.
See my reply on page 2, sorry for de-railing the thread to the OP.

[markm]

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Without a doubt.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Without a doubt.
See page 2 reply, I'm dropping the subject.;)

[markm]

especially in a situation of questionable circumstances.

What "questionable circumstances"? :confused:

[senorlinc]

for my 1st form 1, i went "old school". i got my prints and sign off at the township building and photos across the street at walgreens. it was only a mild PITA. originally went to county sheriff who redirected me without a reason. after a stern 5 minute questioning the CLEO signed it -incorrectly. it did cost me $8 for the photos and $10 plus a lecture for getting printed without an appointment for the prints. oh yes and the extra week wait and trip to the township to get the signoff corrected. the folks in WV were very nice with the initial rejection and left me the contact info for a person to "fastrack" it . now after writing all that i guess it was a pain....am glad i went with the trust for the lastest project

[BushmasterFanBoy]

What "questionable circumstances"? :confused:

Edited- Keeping the thread on topic.

[b_saan]

this thread has now officially gone bARFCOM on us... :rolleyes:

[BushmasterFanBoy]

this thread has now officially gone bARFCOM on us... :rolleyes:

You're right. My comments are driving this gentlemans thread off track, my replies have been edited. :)

[adh]

should I send a copy of the Trust document in with the form 1?

[bigthunder223]

You have to send a complete copy of the Trust including the property schedule.Remember to update your property schedule whenever you add an item to the Trust.I normally do not add the NFA firearm to the property schedule until I receive the stamp.I believe you can do it either way.

[adh]

You have to send a complete copy of the Trust including the property schedule.Remember to update your property schedule whenever you add an item to the Trust.I normally do not add the NFA firearm to the property schedule until I receive the stamp.I believe you can do it either way.

One more question then. On the property schedule, does it have to be specific, i.e. model serial # of SBR or can it be more general (as I was planning) and say "Firearms and Accessories Regulated under the NFA (National Firearms Act)"

Thanks for all the help fellas

[Abiqua]

it has to be specific.

[adh]

it has to be specific.

Thanks...by specific, do I put the model # and serial # and orignal manufacture (in this case Rock River Arms)?

Thanks again

[mtk]

Place the name of the trust, as it appears on the trust document,on the form one.
You do not have to engrave your NFA weapons.Some people prefer to do this.However,it is not required by law.The weapon is identified by the serial number.

I've read the actual Federal law that says you're wrong. It's on the web, in plain English, and couldn't be more clear on the subject.

You're free to do as you wish, but giving out advice telling people to build contraband NFA weapons (which is what improperly made NFA weapons are considered: contraband) isn't helping anyone.

See the following:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/27cfr479.102.htm

(You'll note that this is a website of the Federal government.)

PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:

[...snip...]

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and


There it is, in the Federal Regulations, in black, er, red and white.

A Form 1 is an application to make and register an NFA firearm.

The term make is defined in that section as follows:

Make. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.


In other words, licensed FFL/SOT's manufacture NFA firearms, while unlicensed individuals make them via the Form 1 process.

If your NFA weapon isn't engraved, it has not been made in accordance with Federal Law and it is, therefore, contraband that is subject to forfeiture and opens you up to possible prosecution.

[bigthunder223]

This is a case of interpretation.I have spoken with,worked with, and trained with ATF agents at length.The men that come to your house to take your guns and you away when you violate the law,interpret that differently than you.If you are taking a LMT lower and placing a 10.5" LMT upper on it,you aren't manufacturing anything. You simply assembled it;LMT manufactured it.Their information is already on the gun. If you assemble the upper and lower from parts,then you built it and you may need to engrave it.Remember,it is a violation of federal law to manufacture a firearm without a manufacturers license.Noveske,for example, is a manufacturer.Another company makes the lowers and stamps Noveske on it.Noveske actually manufactures the rifle.
I have always subscribed to the montra:"Better safe than sorry".Do what makes you feel safe.
I would advise anyone with NFA weapons to speak with a local ATF field agent and ask him or her to explain the laws regarding the weapons you possess or intend to possess.The field agents are the ones who decide if you are in violation of the law.Understand that every agent will see things a little differently.

[bigthunder223]

adh,
Be very specific;include manufacturer,model #,serial #,and brief description.Example:Rock River Arms LAR-15 with 10.5" barrel/Serial # 123456.You can include as much as you like, but at least include the info in the example.

[adh]

thanks.....Not sure what I'm gonna do about the additional engraving at this point. I already had it engraved (after knowing that the lower was good to go) with my name, city and state, before deciding on the Trust Route. Really now, I'm unsure if I would need to engrave the additional "revocable living trust of 'my name'". Obviously the trust is a legal entity for which a finger print cannot be obtained nor a picture be taken of. In that vein, it would also be impossible for the trust to manufacture the SBR.

[JoshNC]

thanks.....Not sure what I'm gonna do about the additional engraving at this point. I already had it engraved (after knowing that the lower was good to go) with my name, city and state, before deciding on the Trust Route. Really now, I'm unsure if I would need to engrave the additional "revocable living trust of 'my name'". Obviously the trust is a legal entity for which a finger print cannot be obtained nor a picture be taken of. In that vein, it would also be impossible for the trust to manufacture the SBR.

Just add "trust" behind your name that is already engraved. And actually the trust can definitely make an SBR by filing a form-1.

[mtk]

This is a case of interpretation.I have spoken with,worked with, and trained with ATF agents at length.The men that come to your house to take your guns and you away when you violate the law,interpret that differently than you.If you are taking a LMT lower and placing a 10.5" LMT upper on it,you aren't manufacturing anything. You simply assembled it;LMT manufactured it.Their information is already on the gun. If you assemble the upper and lower from parts,then you built it and you may need to engrave it.Remember,it is a violation of federal law to manufacture a firearm without a manufacturers license.Noveske,for example, is a manufacturer.Another company makes the lowers and stamps Noveske on it.Noveske actually manufactures the rifle.
I have always subscribed to the montra:"Better safe than sorry".Do what makes you feel safe.
I would advise anyone with NFA weapons to speak with a local ATF field agent and ask him or her to explain the laws regarding the weapons you possess or intend to possess.The field agents are the ones who decide if you are in violation of the law.Understand that every agent will see things a little differently.


Yes, I know I'm not manufacturing anything, as I'm not licensed. I'm making something, which requires the same markings.

Notice how Subparagraph (a) has the words "manufacturer" and "maker" listed separately? Those are NOT redundant terms. Noveske is a manufacturer of NFA firearms. An individual filing a Form 1 is a maker of NFA firearms. Both accomplish the same goal and both require the same markings.

The definition of "Maker" I posted is out of the same section of the Federal regulations. Note how it says "(other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part)" right in the definition? "Makers" and "manufacturers" are two different terms for people doing the same thing, the only difference being if one is licensed to do it or not.

It isn't a question of "interpretation" at all; the Federal regulations are crystal clear on the subject. Again, Google that section of the CFR and read it for yourself. Keep in mind that Title I and Title II firearms have completely separate sections in the CFR. Meaning that turning your 16" LMT Carbine into a 12.5" LMT Carbine is, legally speaking, creating a new weapon.

Nor would I take the word of a field agent on the subject. They're about as reliable as taking legal advice from cops. More importantly, how much legal weight do you think the verbal assurance of a Field Agent is going to carry in court? Specifically when he's no longer willing to testify to that effect? Think he'll put it in writing for you? Or how about when he transfers to a new office and Agent Johnny GungHo is looking to make his bones and get a few firearm busts under his belt? Think his verbal assurances are going to buy you a bucket of warm spit at that point? At best, Agent GungHo will just confiscate your NFA weapon as contraband and tell you to be greatful you're not facing felony charges. So you beat the prison rap, but now you're out $1000+ for your SBR. Me? I'm not willing to risk my $2,000 SBR (or my virgin ass) on an opinion of a Field Agent that is contrary to a plain English reading of the Code of Federal Regulations.

Oh yeah, last but not least, a Trust can most definitely make an SBR. In terms of NFA law, an "individual" is defined as a person, trust, or other business entity (Corp, LLC, etc.).

[bigthunder223]

mtk,
They make medication for what ales you.
You may not trust an ATF field agent or believe he has a firm grasp of NFA laws,but he is the one making the decisions on the scene.He is also the one who will arrest you and take your weapons.
"You might can beat the charge,but you can't beat the ride!"
To make you fell better,I will include the following disclaimer with all of my posts:
"Follow advice at own risk, 'cause I don't know shit!"

[mtk]

mtk,
They make medication for what ales you.
You may not trust an ATF field agent or believe he has a firm grasp of NFA laws,but he is the one making the decisions on the scene.He is also the one who will arrest you and take your weapons.
"You might can beat the charge,but you can't beat the ride!"
To make you fell better,I will include the following disclaimer with all of my posts:
"Follow advice at own risk, 'cause I don't know shit!"


So I need medicated because I can read a plain English statute?

Tell you what, you find justification for your opinion in the Code of Federal Regulations and I'll head on down for a prescription of meds. The law is worded quite clearly, with all the terms used in it being well-defined, leaving no abiguity whatsoever as to its content. Most Federal laws are like that. The terms "maker" and "manufacturer" are clearly defined in the CFR. The Form 1 says "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" across the top. In the instructions it even notes that SOT manufacturers are exempt from this requirement and can use a Form 2. The CFR on marking requirements clearly states both makers and manufacturers are required to add these markings. Saying "engravings aren't required" doesn't pass even a simple reading of the statutes.

I'll also note that you didn't address one fact I posted, but rather just resorted to ad-hominum attacks. I can back up my opinion with the Code of Federal Regulations. You back yours up with petty insults and claims that Field Agents told you so (as if that actually carried some weight). Which one of us is slinging a bullshit opinion back up by nothing but heresay?

You're also free to listen to the local Field Agent's opinion. But you're also wrong that he's the one who decides to press charges or not. That is left up to the Federal Prosecutor. Want to bet that he can read English as well as me? And even if you're right, what your local agent told you doesn't mean jack to 99% of the rest of the country. Nor is there any guarantee that they're well-versed in NFA laws. Lots of LEO's don't know their ass from a hole in the mud when it comes to the law. As but one example, here in PA, lots of local cops think open carry is illegal; that doesn't make it so, it only makes them ignorant of the law. As for ATF Field Agents, I'd expect them to be much more experienced with Title I firearms laws since that is 99% of their job. The entire NFA industry is just a minor blip when compared to the "regular" firearms industry. Hell, how many cops think NFA items are completely illegal? Quite a few in my experience. So I stand by my statement that the opinion of a few Field Agents doesn't mean a damn thing.

And yes, I've seen the letters from the Firearms Tech Branch floating around on the internet saying you don't need engraving. I've also seen follow-up letters from ATF saying they were wrong on the first one. I've also seen a letter saying that engravings on the lower receiver weren't required (which is true; they can be on the upper or barrel if you so choose, as stated in the CFR I quoted) being misinterpreted to mean that they weren't required at all. Either way, I also know that letters not addressed to you are not admissable in court.

You're free to follow your own advice at your own risk. But advocating that others follow it is hardly giving out useful advice. Frankly, I don't care if you end up in prison or out your NFA weapon as a result of it. I'm a firm believer in letting people reap the rewards of their actions. However, I'm more concerned about the innocent newbie who might get screwed by following your bad advice. The biggest problem with NFA firearms is that a lot of ATF's current positions are not written down anywhere or actually codified in the CFR, which makes staying in compliance difficult for a newbie. That isn't the case here. These regulations are actually in the CFR and only require a bit of reading to learn.

Like I said, quote the CFR's and prove me wrong. It took me less than five minutes to find the parts I quoted online and I even provided you a government link to start. Quote the CFR's to back up what you claimed. I know I can do it to back up my position, leaving no abiguity at all. Can you?

Sorry if I'm belaboring this point, but this kind of stuff is important. ATF's prosection record shows that they're very much in favor or going after the person who mistakenly stepped outside the regulations and not the person actually up to nefarious activities. Why risk your life arresting the MS-13 member, armed with his illegal full-auto AK-47, when you can arrest the citizen, who has never committed a violent act in his life, over his minor paperwork violation. Only one of those two is likely to shoot back.

[adh]

Just to Mod my own thread here. I understand both sides. And will proceed with the additional engraving because it's not that big a deal to me seeing that I already had it engraved when planning to go the non-trust route. But this thread is not the appropriate place to hash out this argument. Valid points have been made on both sides...but let's keep it civil. I don't think anything was meant as a personal attack but more of a joke. My/your/our freedom is a serious subject and yes in some respects ATF has had some qestionable incidents. My mind is made up on what I'm going to do and this thread has been a lot of help. Let's leave it at that if we may.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[markm]

Just add "trust" behind your name that is already engraved. And actually the trust can definitely make an SBR by filing a form-1.

I would have the engravings MATCH what you put on the Form 1 as "additional markings" that will appear on the weapon.

I believe it is Line 4h. That is what you are telling the gubment that is on your receiver. If you already have the markings on the lower.... either buy a new lower or put what those markings are on line 4h.

I left 4h blank.

The bottom line is, I would err on the side of having the PAPERS match The GUN!!

[adh]

I would have the engravings MATCH what you put on the Form 1 as "additional markings" that will appear on the weapon.

I believe it is Line 4h. That is what you are telling the gubment that is on your receiver. If you already have the markings on the lower.... either buy a new lower or put what those markings are on line 4h.

I left 4h blank.

The bottom line is, I would err on the side of having the PAPERS match The GUN!!

Good point there. I'd like to get opinions from ya'll (yeah I'm from Texas) on whether or not the additional engravig would be necessary. Right now the lower is engraved with my name, city, and state. If I complete the form 1s in section 4h with that info, and the form 1 gets approved, and a copy of my trust has been submitted with the form 1, wouldn't that be a de facto approval of the method and markings?

[markm]

wouldn't that be a de facto approval of the method and markings?

That's the way I would take it.

All I can do is present my paperwork (in the unlikely event I ever had to), and make sure it matches what I have to the letter.

[bigthunder223]

mtk,
I do not disagree with the law as it reads.I only point out the actual perceived intention of it.I have been an LEO since 1994.I have served on two Task Forces consisting of local LEO and federal agents throughout the years.I agree many officers have little understanding of the law,but others are very knowledgeable.The Attorney General will not come to your home to investigate
a possible violation of NFA law;an ATF Agent will.That agent's decisions and actions will determine your fate.How he interprets the law,right or wrong,and your intentions is more important than anything else.
I appreciate your strong desire to protect the members of this forum from potential criminal prosecution due to misinformation.However, I have no knowledge of a single incident of criminal prosecution involving the matter we are discussing.I am certain it is a non-issue for the ATF.
Forward vertical grips on an AR pistol will get you 10 years.A rifle that malfunctions and goes full-auto will get you 10 years(Because you decided to let your buddies shoot it before you had it repaired).An unregistered 14.5" barrell with a flash hider secured by red loc-tite will get you 10 years.A registered NFA weapon without additional engraving will never be an issue.
I harbor no ill will.My remarks were only meant to be funny.You won,the newbie engraved his weapon.;)

[mtk]

I wouldn't consider ATF's approval of the paperwork as any kind of approval of your markings as they never see your markings. I've never filled in anything in the "other markings" section of a Form 1 so they have no idea what is actually engraved on that item. They operate under the assumption that you've followed the regulations for marking the item. For all they know, I could have wrote them on the buttstock in grease pencil.

The "other markings" section is for that "Molon Labe, bitches!" you had engraved on the magwell:D, not for the required NFA markings.

[markm]

Hmmm... that's an interesting possibility too.

I guess I just assumed that line 4h was the spot you'd put your engraving info on. Although I tend to agree with bigthunder223 in that it's likely a non issue for ATF.... and I know.... the mood could change down the road and they could break it off in your ass if they wanted to.

[rsilvers]

I am not a lawyer, but if something says it is a defense to prosecution -- that does not mean it is legal. It just means if you are prosecuted, you can use it as a defense. Yes I know in TX it is treated as legal but that wording cannot make a CLEO comfortable.

[b_saan]

I am not a lawyer, but if something says it is a defense to prosecution -- that does not mean it is legal. It just means if you are prosecuted, you can use it as a defense. Yes I know in TX it is treated as legal but that wording cannot make a CLEO comfortable.

ACTUALLY... it is still undeniably legal, HOWEVER when a law is worded as something being a "defense to prosecution" that means that you are assumed to be illegal and the burden of proof that you are in legal compliance with the requirements of the law is on you. In normal legal wording the burden of proof of non-compliance with a law is on the state/etc. to prove that you are doing something illegal.

I also am not a lawyer but I do have multiple immediate family members that are and I asked.