View Full Version : "P90" upper for AR's ...
30 cal slut
09-19-08, 09:49
well, i like having choices, and this is very kewl in its own right, but i'm scratching my head here.
isn't the 5.7 mm round basically 1/2 a 5.56 mm round? You're getting an upper that shoots a cartridge that's 1/2 the power and twice (or more) the price of 5.56 mm?
http://www.57center.com/1.html?sm=60893
oh well.
well, i like having choices, and this is very kewl in its own right, but i'm scratching my head here. isn't the 5.7 mm round basically 1/2 a 5.56 mm round? You're getting an upper that shoots a cartridge that's 1/2 the power and twice (or more) the price of 5.56 mm? http://www.57center.com/1.html?sm=60893 oh well.
Football bat.
im not a fan of them, we've had a few in my shop cause guys wanted us to order them. the fit isn't that great we've had to do a little bit of sanding and filing before we could even get it to line up with the pins. mags are kinda annoying to seat, you cant just toss em in and slap em home like on a p90. id say if you want something in that cartridge just get a ps90.
I think they're less than half.. They use .224" bullets, just like the 5.56, but, according to Wikipedia, a 55gr. bullet out of the 5.7x28mm only has a muzzle velocity of 1,000 fps.. compared to 3,000+ fps of the 5.56.
Even the SS190, the "duty" round that's not civilian legal in 5.7, is essentially a 32 grain version of the 62gr. SS109 that's loaded in military M855. It contains the steel "penetrator", but even this little 32 grain version is only pushing 2,350 fps... and don't even get me started on the cost of the ammo...
I can see the military version of the P90 competing with weapons such as the MP5, but, it can only compete with pistol rounds such as the 9mm, (and I'd still prefer the 9 LOL), but someone who buys the civilian version, the PS90, with it's 16.5" barrel, why not just get an M4 for half the price and almost 3 times the power? And then, when you've got the M4, why would you spend $700 to castrate it by installing a 5.7 upper?? Some people just have too much money to throw around LOL. Maybe that 55gr. 1000 fps round could work well for a suppressed weapon, but if I need silence, I'd stick to a 9mm upper... a little 55gr. 22 round moving at 1000 fps isn't gonna stop much... ;) Man, I'd rather have a .22 WMR or .17 HMR LMAO
olds442tyguy
09-19-08, 15:40
5.7x28 isn't that expensive. Compare it to high end 5.56 and it's pretty damn cheap actually.
Of course the 5.7x28's practical use is practically nothing, but I'd still like to pick up a PS90 for shits and giggles. I've seen the new 5.7 AR upper and the old defunct Rhineland one seemed like a much better design.
well, i like having choices, and this is very kewl in its own right, but i'm scratching my head here.
isn't the 5.7 mm round basically 1/2 a 5.56 mm round? You're getting an upper that shoots a cartridge that's 1/2 the power and twice (or more) the price of 5.56 mm?
http://www.57center.com/1.html?sm=60893
oh well.
The ammo is now priced about the same or cheaper than 5.56 or .223 as FN didnt raise the prices like crazy when ammo shot up.
Cabela's sells the 5.7 SS197 for $189 per 500 rnds with a free ammo can. And I've seen some dealers sell at $700 per case (2000 rnds) plus $15 shipping.
My mistake. I've not checked the prices of 5.7mm ammo since the PS90 was released. Even still, I think it's overpriced for what it is.
I just can't see how anyone can justify buying one, since theres no size/weight advantage of the weapon itself. The FN FiveSeven pistol on the otherhand, can have certain purposes, when compared to other pistol calibers.. I just don't think the 5.7 has any place in the combat rifle or carbine market. Just my 2 cents.
I looked at the 5.7 upper and wasn't impressed. Maybe that's because I already have a 5.7 Pistol and PS90. The PS90 is a great little package. I just wish FN would still sell the original ammo for them.
Parabellum9x19mm
09-20-08, 14:39
I just wish FN would still sell the original ammo for them.
pretty sure they still sell SS190, or at least L191. its just Class III in the USA. FN's marketing was a bit too successful in my opinion :( sucks for us PS90 owners. still a fun lil blaster tho.
side note....
which is the "best" 5.7 load for defense? i don't trust the lead free hollowpoints, they are so light...20 something grains? but on the other hand the heavier 40 grain bullets have ballistic tips, which is not a good thing. and i mean 40 grain still isn't so good. same as a .22LR.
neither prospect sounds too hot.
pretty sure they still sell SS190, or at least L191. its just Class III in the USA. FN's marketing was a bit too successful in my opinion :( sucks for us PS90 owners. still a fun lil blaster tho.
They sell it, just to LEO only. That was an FN decision, not a legal thing. They were getting bad press so they pulled it back out of the commercial market.
i don't trust the lead free hollowpoints...
If you plan on any long term storage, don't use the lead free. the aluminum compounds in the primers will oxidize and they'll become unreliable.
I love both my FiveSeveN and PS90. But I wouldnt nuy and AR upper for the round.
I think they're less than half.. They use .224" bullets, just like the 5.56, but, according to Wikipedia, a 55gr. bullet out of the 5.7x28mm only has a muzzle velocity of 1,000 fps.. compared to 3,000+ fps of the 5.56.
Even the SS190, the "duty" round that's not civilian legal in 5.7, is essentially a 32 grain version of the 62gr. SS109 that's loaded in military M855. It contains the steel "penetrator", but even this little 32 grain version is only pushing 2,350 fps... and don't even get me started on the cost of the ammo...
I can see the military version of the P90 competing with weapons such as the MP5, but, it can only compete with pistol rounds such as the 9mm, (and I'd still prefer the 9 LOL), but someone who buys the civilian version, the PS90, with it's 16.5" barrel, why not just get an M4 for half the price and almost 3 times the power? And then, when you've got the M4, why would you spend $700 to castrate it by installing a 5.7 upper?? Some people just have too much money to throw around LOL. Maybe that 55gr. 1000 fps round could work well for a suppressed weapon, but if I need silence, I'd stick to a 9mm upper... a little 55gr. 22 round moving at 1000 fps isn't gonna stop much... ;) Man, I'd rather have a .22 WMR or .17 HMR LMAO
That's the subsonic loading. The standard ball loading is 31gr @2345fps....approximately in the range of the hottest .22 mag loads.
Here's how the P90 & it's cartridge came about:
NATO Request
"Some NATO planners subsequently became concerned about the issue of body armor on the battlefield and decided that the 9x19mm cartridge was now obsolete, since it wouldn't penetrate the body armor they imagined would become standard equipment for infantry troops. These NATO planners informally approached the small-arms industry about the possibility of developing a new class of cartridge to replace the 9x19mm NATO round for personal defense. Only two companies were willing to invest the substantial R&D funds on such a speculative venture; Fabrique Nationale of Belgium and Giat of France began the development of new bottle-neck cartridges in the mid-1980s."
Eventually the standards NATO established for body armor penetration were met and the P90 was off and running. AFAIK only about 25K-30K units have been sold though.
They sell it, just to LEO only. That was an FN decision, not a legal thing. They were getting bad press so they pulled it back out of the commercial market.
my shop is an fn dealer, and we tried ordering some ss190 and they wouldnt ship it to us, they will only ship it directly to a PD
Failure2Stop
09-21-08, 22:40
I can see the applicability of the 5.7 in a very small, purpose built PDW such as the P90 for some very specific tasks that a 5.56 platform doesn't really work in.
However, I cannot really wrap my head around the reason to lose effectiveness from a 5.56 platform by going to 5.7. There is no significant price savings when comparing equivalent performing ammo (which is not really true since the 5.56 still has further reach). Further the design seems to have a minimum barrel length constraint due to the magazine length on the top rail (looks to be about the same length as a 12" AR).
It's not like going for a dedicated .22 LR upper for low cost training, or a 5.45 upper which seems to be a great way to reduce cost without losing recoil management technique. While some have accused the 5.7 as a solution looking for a problem, I think that an AR 5.7 definately falls into that category.
Then again if you just want to be different, as some seem to prefer over actual usefulness, then this would undoubtedly meet your needs.
Then again if you just want to be different, as some seem to prefer over actual usefulness, then this would undoubtedly meet your needs.
Which is why I passed when my dealer showed it to me. He knows I like new stuff so he always brings it out when I show up but I couldn't figure out a use for an upper like that, and I freely admit I have guns with absolutely no practical purpose. I have a PS90 and a FiveseveN pistol so I'm covered on that cartridge.
I will say my PS90 is an absolute blast to shoot.
BushmasterFanBoy
09-22-08, 10:14
However, I cannot really wrap my head around the reason to lose effectiveness from a 5.56 platform by going to 5.7.
I struggled with this for awhile as well.
Absolutely the only thing I could even think of this thing for is if you wanted to hunt small game and not ruin the meat (without reverting to head shots). Even then I'm not sure of how the round will perform. I believe the standard civilian round has a polymer tip, and if that's anything like a polymer tipped .17 HMR round, the 5.7 is going to do major damage to small game. So I suppose if it was loaded with the structurally stable "AP" round, then it shouldn't tear the game up so much.
Robb Jensen
09-22-08, 10:38
I can see the applicability of the 5.7 in a very small, purpose built PDW such as the P90 for some very specific tasks that a 5.56 platform doesn't really work in.
However, I cannot really wrap my head around the reason to lose effectiveness from a 5.56 platform by going to 5.7. There is no significant price savings when comparing equivalent performing ammo (which is not really true since the 5.56 still has further reach). Further the design seems to have a minimum barrel length constraint due to the magazine length on the top rail (looks to be about the same length as a 12" AR).
It's not like going for a dedicated .22 LR upper for low cost training, or a 5.45 upper which seems to be a great way to reduce cost without losing recoil management technique. While some have accused the 5.7 as a solution looking for a problem, I think that an AR 5.7 definately falls into that category.
Then again if you just want to be different, as some seem to prefer over actual usefulness, then this would undoubtedly meet your needs.
Me either.
I can see a very small window for the usefulness of a P90. What the USSS is using them for.... that being close-range PSD work it would seem to work very well without over penetration etc (a worry with close proximity of bystanders). The P90 is also very controllable when fired on auto. Sure the 5.56mm is more effective shot for shot, but I imagine 25 rounds of 5.7 fired on full auto into the torso of a person at 10yds would be very effective.
Outside of that kind of use I think 5.56mm is far superior especially using long-heavy OTM rounds.
pretty sure they still sell SS190, or at least L191. its just Class III in the USA.
There is no such thing as Class III ammunition.
Parabellum9x19mm
09-22-08, 17:56
perhaps its not "Class III", but it is ammunition that is highly controlled by the BATFE.
perhaps its not "Class III", but it is ammunition that is highly controlled by the BATFE.
No it isn't. FN can sell civilians the ammo if they wanted to. The ATF decided it wasn't made to be armor piercing so they don't ban it. It's entirely an FN decision not to sell it.
BushmasterFanBoy
09-22-08, 21:39
No it isn't. FN can sell civilians the ammo if they wanted to. The ATF decided it wasn't made to be armor piercing so they don't ban it. It's entirely an FN decision not to sell it.
This is how I understood it as well, but perhaps I am mistaken.
Still, the AP ammo would be great for small game hunting.
Parabellum9x19mm
09-22-08, 22:27
i didn't know that.
that sucks even worse somehow.
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