View Full Version : Leaked ATF letter
Dist. Expert 26
02-06-17, 17:57
An apparently leaked internal ATF paper discusses the possibility of removing suppressors from the NFA without the HPA being necessary. I'm not going to get too excited over this, but it does sound promising.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/06/breaking-atf-white-paper-leaked/
Yeah, I'm not holding my breath, but I'll remain hopeful. I Would love to see this.
Scott
MeanCarbine
02-06-17, 18:05
Interesting. Fingers crossed.
As of a few minutes ago the white House petition only has -20,000 signatures of 97,000 required. Very surprising to me, I suspect either a majority of gun owners do not know about it or might even be afraid to add their name to a list per se.
As of a few minutes ago the white House petition only has -20,000 signatures of 97,000 required. Very surprising to me, I suspect either a majority of gun owners do not know about it or might even be afraid to add their name to a list per se.
Or the popular of suppressors is inflated or everything thinks the HPA is slam dunk for some reason.
Dist. Expert 26
02-06-17, 18:16
As of a few minutes ago the white House petition only has -20,000 signatures of 97,000 required. Very surprising to me, I suspect either a majority of gun owners do not know about it or might even be afraid to add their name to a list per se.
If you're referring to the petition to repeal the NFA, I won't waste my time signing it because it's a pipe dream.
If you're referring to the petition to repeal the NFA, I won't waste my time signing it because it's a pipe dream.
Do you think that is a common belief? I am highly skeptical myself but they already have my info from years of purchasing firearms so I signed it (I know, the forms are maintained locally, et cetera but once a shop is closed the documents get sent).
TacticalFun
02-06-17, 18:44
It amazes me that people will not take 2 mins of their lives to sign the hpa.
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As of a few minutes ago the white House petition only has -20,000 signatures of 97,000 required. Very surprising to me, I suspect either a majority of gun owners do not know about it or might even be afraid to add their name to a list per se.
I'm hoping that most don't know rather than most don't have 5 seconds to sign it, or are afraid to.
Why do gun shops almost never give heads up on this stuff? At least my local shops don't
Scott
It amazes me that people will not take 2 mins of their lives to sign the hpa.
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They apparently think the government runs on reason and sound logic. When in fact is runs on responses to squeaky wheels.
SeriousStudent
02-06-17, 19:22
Interesting. Here's a link to the gent who is supposed to have penned this:
https://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff
Mr Turk is not only the COO for the BATFE, but he enlisted in the Air National Guard as an E-1, and worked his way up to General officer after 30 years of service.
And speaking of BATFE, am I the only one that thinks it's just a little weird that there is no "E" on that cover page, in the article link?
The name of his organization is Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Somebody left the "Explosives" off the name of the organization on the alleged report cover sheet.
That does seem more than a little weird to me, and makes me wonder if it's authentic. I hope it is, but that missing E makes me suspicious.
Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, the doc seems to show the 'E' on the cover for me?
43900
SeriousStudent
02-06-17, 19:41
Yer right, and I need more coffee.
I could have sworn that the one I saw this morning was missing the "Explosives".
(OMG, missing explosives, call the....)
Then maybe it is legit. Which would be nice.
Yer right, and I need more coffee.
I could have sworn that the one I saw this morning was missing the "Explosives".
(OMG, missing explosives, call the....)
Then maybe it is legit. Which would be nice.
It's the only copy I have seen, and it seems thorough and legitimate. But there's always the possibility multiple copies existed in various forms of legitimacy. 'Fake News' you know.
Dist. Expert 26
02-06-17, 19:45
Do you think that is a common belief? I am highly skeptical myself but they already have my info from years of purchasing firearms so I signed it (I know, the forms are maintained locally, et cetera but once a shop is closed the documents get sent).
I think most people are smart enough to realize that they'll never be able to buy a Mk. 19 at their local gun store.
Supporting the HPA is an attainable goal. Repealing the NFA is not.
I thought I saw somewhere back when the e got added that the ATF would continue to be known largely by its established acronym interchangeably with the new one?
My concern is that without official release provenance, it's just more hokey, fake news.
I think most people are smart enough to realize that they'll never be able to buy a Mk. 19 at their local gun store.
Supporting the HPA is an attainable goal. Repealing the NFA is not.
I WON'T! WTF
I WON'T! WTF
No kidding. Not now maybe but 20-30 years from now? Who knows.
Our long term goals should be an unwavering desire to repeal, revoke, etc every anti-2A law created. Period. Even if it takes 200 years.
Direct link to the white paper. It's only 11 pages, easy read:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/read-the-white-paper-on-firearms-regulations/2325/
Remove suppressors.
Specifically list green tip as exempted from armor piercing bans, mentions sporting purposes, albeit it also mentions most similar calibers will pierce body armor even if not designed for it (let's hope the media doesn't pick up on that line).
Clarification on arm braces.
Generally has good ideas inside of it...hopefully it's well received up the ATF chain.
SeriousStudent
02-06-17, 20:37
If Mr Turk did indeed write it, that's a pretty short chain.
His boss who is the Acting Director of the BATFE, then the Attorney General, then the President.
An apparently leaked internal ATF paper discusses the possibility of removing suppressors from the NFA without the HPA being necessary. I'm not going to get too excited over this, but it does sound promising.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/06/breaking-atf-white-paper-leaked/
Unfortunately that is not what it says. The reclassification it speaks of is the reclassification of silencer PARTS as simply parts not as suppressors. The NFA was a law that specifically places silencers in their current category. It will take a law to remove them. The paper also says that the ATF will not oppose and will likely support the change to the NFA law.
Regardless, we should add to the list. It reads as legit to me, but what do I know.
Repeal of 922(r) as well as 41P.
If you're referring to the petition to repeal the NFA, I won't waste my time signing it because it's a pipe dream.
I chatted with my buddy about this yesterday or day before. I agree that a repeal of the entire NFA is a pipe dream. My opinion is because of the full auto stuff. Even a repeal of the Hughes Amendment faces a tough battle. One reason for that is a lot of the transferable owners are against it because their 30k dollar investment M16's become 800 dollar guns over night. I have talked to more than I can count that are against "legalizing" FA stuff again over the past 8 years. "but but but but my investment"... **** your investment. Were our own worst enemy some times.
The potential implication this would have on Suppressors and Stabilizing Braces is pretty awesome, but there are a number of other items that are also pretty promising. Someone else mentioned the Green Tip "grandfathering". Although, there could be a downside to that if they start writing new rules for AP ammo. Me thinks that A1 will get a spot on the list.
The others that I feel are noteworthy include:
-Relaxing interstate sales laws for FFLs
-Evaluating the sporting purposes designation. (Under the wrong Administration, this might be cause for concern. But with Trump, and the way the white paper pretty much declares the AR platform to be the Standard for hunting and sporting, it seems like a positive.)
-Appointment of a Senate confirmed Director. With the current balance of power, this could be another plus. Someone who has an understanding and respect for the 2A, and sets the tone for the entire Agency, might mean more good things are in store.
-The final "footnotes" under #16 might be the most overlooked. The header includes language to the effect of "Old Regulations under review for Possible Removal or Amendment". Some of those items for review deal with "assault weapons" and "large capacity magazines." Again, under the right administration this could be significant; especially for those in less friendly States.
Overall, it looks good on paper. Will be interesting to follow each item in the coming months.
ArmedNovelist
02-06-17, 23:42
If Mr Turk did indeed write it, that's a pretty short chain.
His boss who is the Acting Director of the BATFE, then the Attorney General, then the President.
That's an important point. This was going to get around, even if it hadn't gone public. There are changes the ATF can make and there is legislation to cover the repeal of other changes. There's a lot of talk going on. A lot of good talk. Now... I want to see action.
I can't help but think that even the BATFE finds themselves obsolete, and this may be a way to earn public support to save their own ass...
With that said if Turk wrote it, and this is a 100% legit this is amazing and I hope it becomes a reality.
Even a repeal of the Hughes Amendment faces a tough battle. One reason for that is a lot of the transferable owners are against it because their 30k dollar investment M16's become 800 dollar guns over night. I have talked to more than I can count that are against "legalizing" FA stuff again over the past 8 years. "but but but but my investment"... **** your investment. Were our own worst enemy some times.
This has become the second biggest wives' tale of the NFA world (the first being that atf can force a visit on you in the middle of the night if you own title-2 firearms). It's absurd. I personally own a decent number of transferable MGs. I know others with far larger collections. This topic has been discussed on Subguns.com and Sturmgewehr.com, two of the largest/oldest online forums where MG owners (many/most of whom started collecting when MGs were very inexpensive) gather. I've yet to see anyone who would prefer to keep the value of their collection vs. seeing 922(o) repealed. This includes some big name SOTs on Subguns. This line of thought is part of the psyche of the non-mg owning crowd that longs for cheaper prices. It is not a prevalent mindset amongst MG owners. I would gladly trade the value of my collection in order to have the opportunity to own brand new MGs of all makes, models, and variety.
Its a good start.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if that crazy woman had won the election.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-07-17, 00:42
Unfortunately that is not what it says. The reclassification it speaks of is the reclassification of silencer PARTS as simply parts not as suppressors. The NFA was a law that specifically places silencers in their current category. It will take a law to remove them. The paper also says that the ATF will not oppose and will likely support the change to the NFA law.
So does that get us back to where you could get new baffles/ends in the event of a strike to repair, rather than have to get new approval and suppressor?
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-07-17, 00:43
Unfortunately that is not what it says. The reclassification it speaks of is the reclassification of silencer PARTS as simply parts not as suppressors. The NFA was a law that specifically places silencers in their current category. It will take a law to remove them. The paper also says that the ATF will not oppose and will likely support the change to the NFA law.
So does that get us back to where you could get new baffles/ends in the event of a strike to repair, rather than have to get new approval and suppressor?
ETA: The thing just went full auto on me.
Its a good start.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if that crazy woman had won the election.
Truth!
Its a good start.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if that crazy woman had won the election.
Thinking back on the campaign, it's crazy to think we were so dangerously close to that reality. They tried so hard to prop her up. In hindsight, I'm not sure there is anything the media could have done to bring Killiary victory. The heart of America knew what was at stake. Trump was a risk. But she was a clear and existential threat.
America took a gamble. We had nothing to lose. And what's maybe the crazier thing is how Trump has actually performed. I was originally a Cruz guy, but was also never an anti-Trumper. Honestly, I don't know if a single one of those other Republicans would have the stones to do in an entire term, what Trump has done in only a couple weeks. When he said "the forgotten men and women of our will be forgotten no longer", he freaking meant it. Middle America has been overlooked and cast aside. Not only do I feel we have a voice, but we have an advocate. And. It. Is. Awesome.
Political tangent aside, there are good things in store for the 2A community if we keep their feet to the fire. I think there is some truth in JulyAZ's statement. That the BATFE no longer has a stranglehold. We're not going to be content with rallying the troops and saving something like M855 from a ban. We need to learn from the progressive left. It's not enough to stop something. Driving the agenda is their forte. We can't take this opportunity, sit back and think, "well, we're safe for a few years." We need to think, "this is what we plan to accomplish in the coming years." Let's gain so much ground that the anti-gunners heads spin.
Sorry, I got myself fired up there. My main point is, let's not squander this opportunity. Let's push the envelope. Forget the HPA. Let's skip all the protests by these out of touch psychos in Washington. The ATF has opened the door for great things to be done without the legislature. Just as they attempted to ban M855, let's convince them they have no choice but to eliminate the red tape associated with suppressors. Couple this with a reversal of the brace "redesign" nonsense, and it's a complete game changer. Can you imagine how many will change their HD setup, for the better, if both of these issues went our way? Honestly, at that point, they might as well look at throwing out all the SBR restrictions.
Alright. I have to stop :D
Thinking back on the campaign, it's crazy to think we were so dangerously close to that reality. They tried so hard to prop her up. In hindsight, I'm not sure there is anything the media could have done to bring Killiary victory. The heart of America knew what was at stake. Trump was a risk. But she was a clear and existential threat.
America took a gamble. We had nothing to lose. And what's maybe the crazier thing is how Trump has actually performed. I was originally a Cruz guy, but was also never an anti-Trumper. Honestly, I don't know if a single one of those other Republicans would have the stones to do in an entire term, what Trump has done in only a couple weeks. When he said "the forgotten men and women of our will be forgotten no longer", he freaking meant it. Middle America has been overlooked and cast aside. Not only do I feel we have a voice, but we have an advocate. And. It. Is. Awesome.
Political tangent aside, there are good things in store for the 2A community if we keep their feet to the fire. I think there is some truth in JulyAZ's statement. That the BATFE no longer has a stranglehold. We're not going to be content with rallying the troops and saving something like M855 from a ban. We need to learn from the progressive left. It's not enough to stop something. Driving the agenda is their forte. We can't take this opportunity, sit back and think, "well, we're safe for a few years." We need to think, "this is what we plan to accomplish in the coming years." Let's gain so much ground that the anti-gunners heads spin.
Sorry, I got myself fired up there. My main point is, let's not squander this opportunity. Let's push the envelope. Forget the HPA. Let's skip all the protests by these out of touch psychos in Washington. The ATF has opened the door for great things to be done without the legislature. Just as they attempted to ban M855, let's convince them they have no choice but to eliminate the red tape associated with suppressors. Couple this with a reversal of the brace "redesign" nonsense, and it's a complete game changer. Can you imagine how many will change their HD setup, for the better, if both of these issues went our way? Honestly, at that point, they might as well look at throwing out all the SBR restrictions.
Alright. I have to stop :D
Preach it!
I agree. It's definitely go time for us, that's for sure. There's no time like the present, and more than likely won't ever be another chance like we have now, at least in our lifetime. If this election did anything, it showed slimy politicians (on both sides) that they too are expendable. It's time to look them in they eye and say "If you don't represent me as you were elected to, you're ass is getting kicked to the curb". Now is our chance while the stench of the 2016 election is still lingering in the room. We actually have a little leverage for once, and proof of it in the form of President Donald J. Trump. The left is so overwhelmed right now with the outrageous pace Trump has set that pushing now may be the best option while they are still dazed and confused.
If the ruling on suppressors and pistol braces is changed, I have to think it opens the door for removal of SBR's and similar restricted items/configurations as well.
It's time to push back hard.
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Moose-Knuckle
02-07-17, 03:27
Freedom boner . . . level expert.
Hope I don't have to take a cold shower after this.
I'm excited about an overhaul of the 'sporting purposes' clause. A lot of import bans are laid at the foot of that. I hope they declare 3 gun a sporting purpose :-)
I think most people are smart enough to realize that they'll never be able to buy a Mk. 19 at their local gun store.
Supporting the HPA is an attainable goal. Repealing the NFA is not.
And this is how the left keeps gaining ground. This attitude right here.
As Josh said, now is the time to push. Push for all the crazy stuff, and they'll compromise for small movements... just like the left has done for years. Will they nfa be repealed, not anytime soon, but you sign the petition, get people talking about it, and in a few years the stigma goes away.
5 years ago gay marriage was never going to be a thing.
BuzzinSATX
02-07-17, 05:49
Thinking back on the campaign, it's crazy to think we were so dangerously close to that reality. They tried so hard to prop her up. In hindsight, I'm not sure there is anything the media could have done to bring Killiary victory. The heart of America knew what was at stake. Trump was a risk. But she was a clear and existential threat.
America took a gamble. We had nothing to lose. And what's maybe the crazier thing is how Trump has actually performed. I was originally a Cruz guy, but was also never an anti-Trumper. Honestly, I don't know if a single one of those other Republicans would have the stones to do in an entire term, what Trump has done in only a couple weeks. When he said "the forgotten men and women of our will be forgotten no longer", he freaking meant it. Middle America has been overlooked and cast aside. Not only do I feel we have a voice, but we have an advocate. And. It. Is. Awesome.
Political tangent aside, there are good things in store for the 2A community if we keep their feet to the fire. I think there is some truth in JulyAZ's statement. That the BATFE no longer has a stranglehold. We're not going to be content with rallying the troops and saving something like M855 from a ban. We need to learn from the progressive left. It's not enough to stop something. Driving the agenda is their forte. We can't take this opportunity, sit back and think, "well, we're safe for a few years." We need to think, "this is what we plan to accomplish in the coming years." Let's gain so much ground that the anti-gunners heads spin.
Sorry, I got myself fired up there. My main point is, let's not squander this opportunity. Let's push the envelope. Forget the HPA. Let's skip all the protests by these out of touch psychos in Washington. The ATF has opened the door for great things to be done without the legislature. Just as they attempted to ban M855, let's convince them they have no choice but to eliminate the red tape associated with suppressors. Couple this with a reversal of the brace "redesign" nonsense, and it's a complete game changer. Can you imagine how many will change their HD setup, for the better, if both of these issues went our way? Honestly, at that point, they might as well look at throwing out all the SBR restrictions.
Alright. I have to stop :D
No need to stop on our account...truly a solid post!
BuzzinSATX
02-07-17, 05:51
And this is how the left keeps gaining ground. This attitude right here.
Agree! There used to be a lot of "Trump will never win" folks here. They replaced their mantra with "we'll never see the NFA repealed".
Folks need to get out of their limited vision and paradigms...it's a bold new day. Trump ain't no "pussy"! LOL!
Agree! There used to be a lot of "Trump will never win" folks here. They replaced their mantra with "we'll never see the NFA repealed".
Folks need to get out of their limited vision and paradigms...it's a bold new day. Trump ain't no "pussy"! LOL!
It has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the Senate!
Outlander Systems
02-07-17, 07:01
It has to do with reality.
Mufflers falling under the NFA purview is an archaic, burdensome, and onerous regulation.
BuzzinSATX
02-07-17, 07:12
It has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the Senate!
Bull! What do you think the catalyst for all the stuff happening right now is? Definitely not Mitch McConnell and his dysfunctional clan! The People gave the republicans both houses of congress and they did nothing. All this action is stemming from the Oval Office, and if DJT can maintain his momentum, the driving force for legislative action will be so great Congress will have to "move it or lose it!"
And Pence was hired to make sure those cockroaches in the capital building scurry hard!
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Bull! What do you think the catalyst for all the stuff happening right now is? Definitely not Mitch McConnell and his dysfunctional clan! The People gave the republicans both houses of congress and they did nothing. All this action is stemming from the Oval Office, and if DJT can maintain his momentum, the driving force for legislative action will be so great Congress will have to "move it or lose it!"
And Pence was hired to make sure those cockroaches in the capital building scurry hard!
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Just the facts man. None of that matters. You don't have 60 votes in the Senate for cloture. If you dont have cloture you can never get a bill to the senate floor for a vote.
If you were to keep all 52 republicans (doubtful on this issue) you still need 8 democrats for cloture.
RobertTheTexan
02-07-17, 07:45
Yer right, and I need more coffee.
I could have sworn that the one I saw this morning was missing the "Explosives".
(OMG, missing explosives, call the....)
Then maybe it is legit. Which would be nice.
This interesting. Especially the part that says "Not for Public Distribution". Lol
But back to the white paper. White papers have changed over the years. They used to be more of an academic intelligentsia or technological intelligentsia - or whatever discipline one was in. It was typically an "what if" type of paper presenting potential solutions to known problems.
Then the Wee Todd Ded marketing and sales people got a hold of the White Paper and turned it into an advertising marketing document on an existing capability. They reverse engineered it so that something their system did that solved this problem (whether it was a real problem or not)
At least in the technology world I live in, that's the pattern.
So is the government still writing White Papers on known problems and presenting potential solutions as an academic exercise or is there really legitimacy to this and wheels already in motion?
If it's legit it could still be a very long way off from implementation. PC's and data warehouses sever farms, websites (on severs) around the world are filled with White Papers presenting a solution that is yet to be implemented.
I'm going I hope, but in not putting dates on my calendar just yet.
I do wish I had better insight into how this particular branch of the gov't does white papers, and why....We wrote them for PM-LIS but again, it was more of a marketing deal than intelligentsia. (I am not a loggie.)
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Dist. Expert 26
02-07-17, 08:38
And this is how the left keeps gaining ground. This attitude right here.
As Josh said, now is the time to push. Push for all the crazy stuff, and they'll compromise for small movements... just like the left has done for years. Will they nfa be repealed, not anytime soon, but you sign the petition, get people talking about it, and in a few years the stigma goes away.
5 years ago gay marriage was never going to be a thing.
This attitude is reality.
I'm all for pushing attainable goals. Start with the HPA, then the sporting clause, so on and so forth. If we go straight for the throat all we'll get is "LOL NO".
This has become the second biggest wives' tale of the NFA world (the first being that atf can force a visit on you in the middle of the night if you own title-2 firearms).
This has been MY PERSONAL experience, not an "old wives tail" as you claim. These are not the guys in the main stream FA world who go to Knob Creek for 30+ years. These are "gun" guys who bought these guns as investments like they would buy and sell stock or baseball cards or whatever they thought would make them money. I can GUARANTEE that a lot of the big name dealers like Ruben has a bunch of clients like this, even if they dont admit it to him.
RobertTheTexan
02-07-17, 09:19
I agree. It's definitely go time for us, that's for sure. There's no time like the present, and more than likely won't ever be another chance like we have now, at least in our lifetime. If this election did anything, it showed slimy politicians (on both sides) that they too are expendable. It's time to look them in they eye and say "If you don't represent me as you were elected to, you're ass is getting kicked to the curb". Now is our chance while the stench of the 2016 election is still lingering in the room. We actually have a little leverage for once, and proof of it in the form of President Donald J. Trump. The left is so overwhelmed right now with the outrageous pace Trump has set that pushing now may be the best option while they are still dazed and confused.
If the ruling on suppressors and pistol braces is changed, I have to think it opens the door for removal of SBR's and similar restricted items/configurations as well.
It's time to push back hard.
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I showed the video of rhat wicked UC Berkeley witch to my wife and pointed out the threats. My wife is could care less about an AR (Brazilian)
She said well why don't you push back? Why don't you push them back. Maybe you should be burning anything down but are you going to let them push you in a corner until you start dropping them and the go to jail?
I agree.... We need to learn from those whacked out liberals and start taking ground
Like The Book says...
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violent assault, and violent men seize it by force [as a precious prize].
We need to organize. We need to get on our two feet an start taking ground.
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So does that get us back to where you could get new baffles/ends in the event of a strike to repair, rather than have to get new approval and suppressor?
ETA: The thing just went full auto on me.
You got a case of the zacklies...You are zackly right. It would put the serialized part of a silencer (tube) on par with the serialized part (receiver) of a rifle. All other parts (baffles, endcaps ) would be classified as simply parts like a trigger group, upper receiver, or barrel). That can be done administratively. Removing the silencers from the NFA has to be a new law. The HPA does not repeal the NFA, it simply removes silencers as an NFA item. What is significant also in this paper is that it proposes that the ATF will NOT oppose the HPA and will in fact support it as it reduces workload and that silencers are not used in crimes and do not merit the current restrictions and classification.
The guy (Mr. Turk) who signed this White Paper (and likely commissioned its writing) is a retired Air Force Officer, a member of the NRA, and is pro-gun. He must feel liberated from the anti-gun progressive leadership provided by Obama and his minion.
RobertTheTexan
02-07-17, 09:37
You got a case of the zacklies...You are zackly right. It would put the serialized part of a silencer (tube) on par with the serialized part (receiver) of a rifle. All other parts (baffles, endcaps ) would be classified as simply parts like a trigger group, upper receiver, or barrel). That can be done administratively. Removing the silencers from the NFA has to be a new law. The HPA does not repeal the NFA, it simply removes silencers as an NFA item. What is significant also in this paper is that it proposes that the ATF will NOT oppose the HPA and will in fact support it as it reduces workload and that silencers are not used in crimes and do not merit the current restrictions and classification.
The guy (Mr. Turk) who signed this White Paper (and likely commissioned its writing) is a retired Air Force Officer, a member of the NRA, and is pro-gun. He must feel liberated from the anti-gun progressive leadership provided by Obama and his minion.
I thought he was a Marine.. Embassy duty in the Middle East etc??
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I thought he was a Marine.. Embassy duty in the Middle East etc??
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Negative. Turk is retired air force National Guard BG. See attached bio
https://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff
I thought he was a Marine.. Embassy duty in the Middle East etc??
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Negative. Turk is retired air force National Guard BG. See attached bio
https://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff
RobertTheTexan
02-07-17, 12:10
Negative. Turk is retired air force National Guard BG. See attached bio
https://www.atf.gov/about/executive-staff
Yeah I saw that but then I couldn't find my post to correct it. I was looking at the first dude.
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This has become the second biggest wives' tale of the NFA world (the first being that atf can force a visit on you in the middle of the night if you own title-2 firearms). It's absurd. I personally own a decent number of transferable MGs. I know others with far larger collections. This topic has been discussed on Subguns.com and Sturmgewehr.com, two of the largest/oldest online forums where MG owners (many/most of whom started collecting when MGs were very inexpensive) gather. I've yet to see anyone who would prefer to keep the value of their collection vs. seeing 922(o) repealed. This includes some big name SOTs on Subguns. This line of thought is part of the psyche of the non-mg owning crowd that longs for cheaper prices. It is not a prevalent mindset amongst MG owners. I would gladly trade the value of my collection in order to have the opportunity to own brand new MGs of all makes, models, and variety.
Same here. Oh I'd hear about our "investment" loss from the wife, but that could happen just as easily with stocks and 401K's. I would mourn my "investment" loss by going out and buying a new FA with nothing but an ID and filling out a 4473. ;)
The teachers unions are a much more intimidating lobby for blue senators than the anti-gunners. No liberal senator will lose his seat supporting government schools. But I expect some flyover Dems are worried about a pro-gun primary challenger next cycle if they oppose all of these popular ATF reforms. Six-eight defectors from the party line seems a reasonably likely outcome.
This website (http://www.guns.com/2017/02/07/how-could-atf/) published an article '10 hours ago' and seems to be the latest I can find on it. They mention contacting the ATF for comment and "The ATF declined Guns.com’s requests for comment on the “White Paper” letter, only to say that the ideas promoted belonged to the writer, ATF Deputy Director Ronald Turk, and that the letter was not intended for public viewing. ". So I suppose that adds some legitimacy to the document itself?
No need to stop on our account...truly a solid post!
Thanks. I wish I'd stayed up a little longer last night. It's been quite some time since we've been able to talk about positive changes for 2A rights. We've been playing defense for so long that I forgot how good it feels!
I'm glad to see others share the opinion that it's time to step on the gas! Frankly, the progressive left has their hands full fighting so many other losing battles that there really is no excuse. Gun grabbing seems as though it will be taking a back seat to a plethora of equally worthless causes. They don't have nearly enough energy, support, or intellect to keep up with the new Administration.
Same here. Oh I'd hear about our "investment" loss from the wife, but that could happen just as easily with stocks and 401K's. I would mourn my "investment" loss by going out and buying a new FA with nothing but an ID and filling out a 4473. ;)
Amen. My consolation would be had in the form of buying fullautos of EVERY variety in triplicate. I would finally have my minigun. I'm don't think I'd have but a few semiautos, likely all pistols - everything else would be FA.
Meta-Prometheus
02-07-17, 23:02
The very fact such a white paper would surface is a good thing. It means they are thinking about what they are willing to give up to compromise and stay in business. For 8 years we've been on a slow defensive retreat, giving up ground one bit at a time. Now it's our turn to go on the offensive for the first time in a long time. We need to stay focused on our goals. Simply getting silencers away from the purview of the NFA is a victory, as it will set a precedent undermining the validity of the other items under NFA control.
Several people posted about NFA owners being unwilling to give up their investments. I do not know any NFA owners personally that think this way. Most want to be able to buy newer designs more than anything. I'm sure there are NFA people like that though and I can think of at least a handful of places that probably operate that way. Seeing this argument again though makes me wonder how many Congressmen (or their friends) had MG's and stood to benefit from the Hughes Amendment. It's really sick what some will sacrifice for some cash.
Amen. My consolation would be had in the form of buying fullautos of EVERY variety in triplicate. I would finally have my minigun. I'm don't think I'd have but a few semiautos, likely all pistols - everything else would be FA.
Since I already have a RR Colt M16A1, I'd probably get a Glock 18 and an M60E4 and call it good. I can only feed them what I can afford! :)
Since I already have a RR Colt M16A1, I'd probably get a Glock 18 and an M60E4 and call it good. I can only feed them what I can afford! :)
I would register dozens of HK frames, AR15 DIASs, Glock conversion kits, RR fullsize UZIs, RR mini UZIs, SCAR sears, AUG sears, FN PS90 and FS2000 sears, 805 Bren sears or FCGs, scorpion evo sears, tavor FCGs, B&T APC sears, B&T tp9 sears, m240 sideplates, 1919 sideplates, etc. Then add more factory MGs of all flavors - ww2 beltfeds, m60e6, m249, minigun, etc. I'll worry about feeding them later. :)
None of this is going to happen.
None of this is going to happen.
Idk have hope man, you talk a lot in absolutes, this did come from the 2nd in charge of the ATF, things being unlikely aren't a guarantee of what's going to happen. None of us thought there was a chance of defeating a Clinton.
The republicans will lose the 2016 presidential race.
As I said earlier in the thread I can't help but think that even the BATFE finds themselves obsolete, and this may be a way to earn public support to save their own ass...
You know what, call for full repeal of the NFA and call for it hard. Then when the libs get their panties in a twist and scream and whin "conceed" to just the removal of supressors. Rinse, repeat. Use there own tactics of incrementalism against the ****ers.
Idk have hope man, you talk a lot in absolutes, this did come from the 2nd in charge of the ATF, things being unlikely aren't a guarantee of what's going to happen. None of us thought there was a chance of defeating a Clinton.
As I said earlier in the thread I can't help but think that even the BATFE finds themselves obsolete, and this may be a way to earn public support to save their own ass...
LOL, Carnac the Magnificent he is not! :)
Doc Safari
02-08-17, 12:51
A kinder, gentler BATFE? Tell all those Branch Davidians they roasted over their stupid rules.
The change in administration has certainly fed the fantasies of a great number of firearms owners
I'm hoping that most don't know rather than most don't have 5 seconds to sign it, or are afraid to.
Those petitions accomplish almost nothing, and will certainly net you a lot of spam in your inbox. I signed a Whitehouse petition once...I finally had to block their address at the server level. Good lord...they were almost worse than the NRA.
I can't help but think that even the BATFE finds themselves obsolete....
Why do you think that? Federal regulation of firearms will always be with us, so there will always be a Federal regulatory agency for firearms.
Why do you think that? Federal regulation of firearms will always be with us, so there will always be a Federal regulatory agency for firearms.
I think that they are a agency that all of their responsibilities can be given to other agencies without being detrimental to their services or responsibilities.
The change in administration has certainly fed the fantasies of a great number of firearms owners
Very much so. The more likely scenario is something akin to the 2005 Bush ban on imported barrels and receivers and the apologists piping up by the metric ton.
I get that some have a more tempered view of what we can hope for. But those in our ranks who are ignoring the opportunity, and instead acting like those with hope are dreaming, are the reason we are always playing defense. Liberals are really the ultimate salespeople. They understand every "no" is just one step closer to a "yes". They don't care how crazy the goal. Eventually, they'll wear on others enough.
Then, we end up with things we never imagined would happen become a reality. We have the opportunity to do the same. Do I think a move to make new production full-autos available to the public will happen? Likely not. But why the hell don't we try? Just like when the left cries about a 40 year old dude's right to take a dump in the shower in the women's locker room, it sounded crazy to most. But they screamed long and loud enough to where a lot of people thought, "whatever, I guess it's not a big deal." All this gender nonsense is far more ridiculous than a person wanting a giggle switch. Yet there are those among us who think it's not even worth pushing for.
So, to all those people. The ones who think none of this will happen. No FA, form free suppressors, legally shouldered pistols, stamp free SBRs, etc.; would you take advantage of the opportunity if any of those items became a reality? If so, get on board.
Figured the lgbt would get their way. Before long nambla will likely get what they want. There simply isn't the opposition where it matters on that crap like there always is on 2nd Amendment issues.
That isn't a reason to not try, just recognizing the likely outcome.
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