View Full Version : Loading to capacity: lots of bad info out there. My goodness.
I'm having a discussion in a law enforcement group about filling magazines to capacity, and unfortunately, many of them are advocating downloading magazines to as low as 26 rounds.
Uggh.
Anyone have any links or videos from reputable sources to try and dispel this myth? We all know that 30 round magazines deserve 30 rounds.
Thanks
Have any of the other LEO involved in the discussion given a reason for downloading? Is this something they learned in training or through outside sources?
PatrolRifleGroup
02-21-17, 07:50
I have taught and been involved with our department's patrol rifle program for 18 years. We still currently have a policy stating that 30 round magazines will only be loaded to 28 and 20 round magazines will only be loaded to 18. I honestly see the policy as a throwback to the use of older aluminum magazines. They were more easily overfilled, and in the past we've seen that when filled to capacity, you (could*) periodically get feeding issues. I think it would be a hard fought battle at this point to get the policy changed, because it serves to protect the lowest common denominator of officer. You know the type I'm talking about: rifle that hasn't been cleaned since last year's training, only shoots once a year, still carrying the junky magazines that they bought back in 90's. I personally only run either PMAGs or updated USGI magazines, fill to capacity in training or on the street, and have zero issues. However, I'm also an instructor who trains and teaches regularly and is well versed with my equipment. I always put the decision on how to fill magazines back on the officers. If a person is proficient, carries quality equipment, and wants to fill to capacity, then do so.
TimeOnTarget
02-21-17, 08:52
At the risk of exposing my own ignorance, downloading by 2 just makes it easier to insert a new magazine while the bolt is still forward. It lessons the chance of failing to seat the mag and having it fall out on the ground.
People have a tendency to not understand the original context of an issue, and this then becomes urban legend, which takes on a life of itself, producing years of interweb entertainment.
Have any of the other LEO involved in the discussion given a reason for downloading? Is this something they learned in training or through outside sources?
What I tell folks:
Pros: Easier seating of magazine after admin checking loads in the unit at beginning of shift; easier, more positive seating of magazine during in-battery reloads.
Cons: You lose 1/15th of your magazine capacity and most officers do not carry additional AR mags.
Myths: Fully loading magazines causes the springs to take a set and not work reliably.
During training have them run fully loaded magazines so they can see if any problems arise during in-battery/retention reloads. I emphasize magazine seat and tug during reloads/clearances and discuss the fact that if they have to re-seat after a tug it is a failure which needs to be corrected. This enables them to make a fully informed decision as to 28 or 30 rounds.
Making sure reloads are conducted with fully loaded magazines the majority of the time will help them see if they have problems seating the magazine on bolt forward reloads. However, the reality is that because of time constraints, and the 'efficiency' of not topping off after every repetition this doesn't happen often enough during training.
I have seen enough FTF's occur because of improperly seated magazines when officers are under moderate stress, that in good conscious, when asked, I recommend 28 rounds.
The reality is that the average officer is not a gunfighter. Most agency programs will not bring them to that level unless they are in a specialized assignment. Therefore, training and policy should be geared to the common denominator.
JM .02
556BlackRifle
02-21-17, 10:03
I was a deputy in the 80s and carried a revolver most of my time on duty. We could provide our own semi-auto pistol as long as it was on the approved list. Dept policy was to download by one. Some deputies (in boondocks) were issued Mini-14s and at that time they were 20 round mags downloaded by one to nineteen rounds. I believe that this policy had to do with first round nose down feeding issues. IMO it shouldn't be in place with current technology. Try the FBI. I don't know what their policy is but it might be a good source. They spend a shitload of money researching this kind of stuff.
Our agency trained people to download magazines by two rounds to prevent "reliability issues". It is in the printed material I still have, but there is no reference for a source.
When I ran recruits through training at our academy and conducted in service training for veteran officers, I have seen people have issues with inserting a magazine loaded to capacity with a closed bolt. A majority of the officers are not firearms people and things were kept as simple as possible.
We trained people to download by two rounds for years, but I haven't seen a specific reference made to written materials from current U.S. Army training, or training materials from any other branch of the service. If anyone can cite a written reference, it would be greatly appreciated.
bamashooter
02-21-17, 11:11
At the risk of exposing my own ignorance, downloading by 2 just makes it easier to insert a new magazine while the bolt is still forward. It lessons the chance of failing to seat the mag and having it fall out on the ground.
People have a tendency to not understand the original context of an issue, and this then becomes urban legend, which takes on a life of itself, producing years of interweb entertainment.
When in Vietnam a combat/basic load for a 20-round M16 magazine was considered to be 18 rounds. 30 round magazines were few and far between in my little world. Even years later on promotion boards, etc, the correct answer to "What's the basic load for a 20-round magazine?" was 18 rounds. Believe it had to do with the seating problems of the magazines. It may be myth-like now but wasn't then.
I downloaded my duty pistol mags just so it would be easier to reload in battery.
I was an odd duck for a while and toted an M14. I kept it topped off and only had like 3 magazines for it. Once I got an AR, I just used ish GIs for classes and bought pmags which I never downloaded and kept the Colt 20 (which I kept topped as well w/ rifle in Cond. 3 or "Patrol Ready")
In qual, classes, etc....I've never been instructed to load to full capacity. As in never told to have 30 rounds after 30 rounds on most course of fire.
No qual has ever gone beyond 100m nor 60 rounds.
I think a lot of this is dept instructors repeating their predecessors. A DLed mag can be easier to reload in battery (which is why I did it for my G21, two less rounds in my reload mags wouldn't make a difference either way. Plus my main mag was topped off.), but the newer rifle magazines are usually true 30s. So you shouldn't be fighting with your rifle if you just put in 30 vs 31 or 32.
Most folks use pmags now so why people quarrel over it, I don't know.
For you guys who downloaded, by policy or by choice, did you keep the holstered (or trunked) weapon full (mag+chamber)?
For you guys who downloaded, by policy or by choice, did you keep the holstered (or trunked) weapon full (mag+chamber)?
I DLed by choice. I found it was easier. As noted, I did keep a topped off mag in the pistol. This was not a policy, just something that made my life easier and would not have been deleterious to me as unloaded ammo was still in box and same lot number. I also sharpied and named and numbered my mags.
Rifle mags were all pmags save for the patrol ready mag which was a Colt 20 and topped off, rifle was kept condition 3 when racked.
Always two sides to this topic of loading/downloading AR magazines.
Larry Vickers's view: http://www.vickerstactical.com/magazines.html
Ken Hackathorn's view: http://soldiersystems.net/2016/10/29/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-20/
The other side of the coin,
Mike Pannone's view: http://soldiersystems.net/2015/06/20/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-28/
If you have no problems inserting fully loaded 20/30/40/ etc., etc......magazine into a magwell with bolt forward, then run with that. :cool:
If you have no problems inserting a down loaded 18/28/38/ etc., etc....magazine into a magwell with bolt forward, then run with that. :cool:
They taught us to download by 2 at Parris Island in 1975. All of my Drill Instructors were Vietnam vets, so I never really questioned it and I've seen no formal studies since then for or against. Is there something out there beyond the anecdotal?
Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk
I developed my own rule of thumb. If fully loaded to stated capacity, is there enough room for the top round to be depressed by the bolt/slide? If yes, rock on. If no, remove 1 round and rock on.
Gun/magazine designers are susceptible to the Holy Grail search of more ammo in less space. This results in magazines designed to hold __ number of rounds, but will only practically hold that many if you use significant effort to add that last round and when you do, the spring/follower/ammo make a solid stack with zero give. I've also found that a magazine may hold the stated number of rounds with one brand of ammo, but switching to another brand will effectively make it hold one less.
The correct answer is to analyze your setup with your ammo, then choose the number that will allow you and the gun to work as you're trained and it was designed. Anything else is wrong. :)
I developed my own rule of thumb. If fully loaded to stated capacity, is there enough room for the top round to be depressed by the bolt/slide? If yes, rock on. If no, remove 1 round and rock on.
This. Simple enough.
For you guys who downloaded, by policy or by choice, did you keep the holstered (or trunked) weapon full (mag+chamber)?
Carbine had magazine downloaded two cartridges inserted in weapon with an empty chamber. No one would flame you if you had 30 rounds in the spare magazines.
We had no recommendation to download service pistol magazines. I did not top off after chambering a round after observing several problems with magazines issued to those who did top off.
I'm having a discussion in a law enforcement group about filling magazines to capacity, and unfortunately, many of them are advocating downloading magazines to as low as 26 rounds.
Uggh.
Anyone have any links or videos from reputable sources to try and dispel this myth? We all know that 30 round magazines deserve 30 rounds.
Thanks
I would focus your energy more on making sure they do not install their aimpoints/eotechs backwards.
baby steps....
I remember an incident in Army ROTC around 1970. We were still using m14s and loading blanks using stripper clips. One fellow couldn't fire his rifle and when we looked at it we discovered that he had stuffed the entire clip, blanks and all, into the magazine. It was a real mess. We unloaded the magazine and then showed him how to insert the clip into the clip guide and strip the rounds into the magazine. It was the sort of thing that you would never believe someone would do until you saw it.
So while installing an aimpoint backwards might be funny, I am sure that someone has actually done it.
I remember an incident in Army ROTC around 1970. We were still using m14s and loading blanks using stripper clips. One fellow couldn't fire his rifle and when we looked at it we discovered that he had stuffed the entire clip, blanks and all, into the magazine. It was a real mess. We unloaded the magazine and then showed him how to insert the clip into the clip guide and strip the rounds into the magazine. It was the sort of thing that you would never believe someone would do until you saw it.
So while installing an aimpoint backwards might be funny, I am sure that someone has actually done it.
It did happen - there was a photo floating around on Facebook for awhile.
So while installing an aimpoint backwards might be funny, I am sure that someone has actually done it.
Sadly, there are a lot of examples.
We had no recommendation to download service pistol magazines. I did not top off after chambering a round after observing several problems with magazines issued to those who did top off.
May I ask what malfunctions and model of pistol, sir?
When I had to use an M&P .40 briefly, I found that "road readying" the mag would dent/deform the case of the bullet. (Granted I slapped the mag home from behind while it was holstered)
I have had no such issue with Glocks of any caliber
Pmags are specifically designed with the extra space to allow spring compression with a full 30 rds, hence no need to download (passes the thumbnail test). I had to physically show my guys how they would compress the same as a GI mag with 28 rounds loaded to break downloading out of the training cycle.
sublimeon24s
02-21-17, 18:52
meh.....ill keep loading to capacity and if in 2 years from now my mag starts having a problem, ill take the $8 thing and toss it in the garbage
meh.....ill keep loading to capacity and if in 2 years from now my mag starts having a problem, ill take the $8 thing and toss it in the garbage
That's not the point, but I guess your method is sound for a range toy.
Stupid ass thread
Load the damn mags to capacity
May I ask what malfunctions and model of pistol, sir?
When I had to use an M&P .40 briefly, I found that "road readying" the mag would dent/deform the case of the bullet. (Granted I slapped the mag home from behind while it was holstered)
I have had no such issue with Glocks of any caliber
Some failure to feed malfunctions occurred and quite a few failure to lock the slide open after the last shot. This occurred with S&W 39, 439, 6904 and 5904 service pistols.
It also occurred with the Glock 22. I assisted another agency with an advanced practical pistol skills course. Officers I knew well from another agency topped of their Glock 22 magazines after chambering a round. They noticed I did not top off when demonstrating a course of fire. I mentioned seeing malfunctions with the Glock 22 when the magazine was topped off after chambering a cartridge. It almost became a heated argument and I suggested LEO do whatever they are comfortable with doing and carrying on duty. Roughly two years later, one of the LEO adamant about topping off contacted me and asked if I wanted to get in on a group buy of Glock 22 magazines. All the LEO who were adamant about topping off their magazines had failure to lock the slide open after the last shot malfunctions and they were all purchasing new magazines.
I still do not top off a magazine after chambering a round to this day. I have never had a magazine related malfunction with a magazine at 10,000 rounds or less fired through a Glock service pistol while exercising this practice. I don't top off my Sig P938 and the magazine holds seven rounds. The round count on the P938 is over 6,000 rounds (in 14 months) and the magazines function flawlessly.
As has been mentioned the downloading of AR mags had to do with ease of insertion on closed bolt. That said, I've heard regs requiring downloading rifle and pistol mags by one or two for the reason that some people with heavy thumbs would overload the mags causing issues. Or thought that the mags were supposed to take 31 rounds for an AR or 18 rounds in the case of a glock 17. At any rate the idea was have everyone load the things as high as they can and then download by a couple so we know they will work. Which I guess was easier than requiring people to actually count. Not sure how much I care for that. I've also heard download by one, by 2, by 3, even by 5 on AR mags. 2 and 3 being the most common. Only ever heard a few say to download glock or other pistols mags.
My personal loading practices fall into this, I download 30 round AR mags by 2 since it does make them easier to load on a closed bolt. And because of habit. Do with that what you will even more so with what I am going to say next. My 20 round mags, USGI and Pmag, I load to 20 round capacity. Reason here being that the 20s, especially the USGI ones, I load into the rifle almost like a pistol mag where my index finger is pointing towards the mag well and as I seat it my palm pushes it home from the bottom. I find it to be a positive reload practice but the 30s with their length don't allow that, and since I don't always get a grip on the 30s that allow me to do a positive push/pull reload, sometimes I end up a little higher on the 30s and am only able to push with the bottom two fingers unless I reposition I like a little bit of leeway. The 40s I own I load to 40 rounds.
On pistol mags I load to capacity, never had an meaningful* issue loading a fully reloaded pistol mag, be it glock, 1911, USP, ect, with the slide in battery or had any reliability issues, so I never saw the need for it.
*Had one 1911 11rd mag, possibly mec gar but no marking on the mag, that would often malf, FTF, if loaded to the stated 11 rounds and one in the chamber.
Some failure to feed malfunctions occurred and quite a few failure to lock the slide open after the last shot. This occurred with S&W 39, 439, 6904 and 5904 service pistols.
It also occurred with the Glock 22. I assisted another agency with an advanced practical pistol skills course. Officers I knew well from another agency topped of their Glock 22 magazines after chambering a round. They noticed I did not top off when demonstrating a course of fire. I mentioned seeing malfunctions with the Glock 22 when the magazine was topped off after chambering a cartridge. It almost became a heated argument and I suggested LEO do whatever they are comfortable with doing and carrying on duty. Roughly two years later, one of the LEO adamant about topping off contacted me and asked if I wanted to get in on a group buy of Glock 22 magazines. All the LEO who were adamant about topping off their magazines had failure to lock the slide open after the last shot malfunctions and they were all purchasing new magazines.
I still do not top off a magazine after chambering a round to this day. I have never had a magazine related malfunction with a magazine at 10,000 rounds or less fired through a Glock service pistol while exercising this practice. I don't top off my Sig P938 and the magazine holds seven rounds. The round count on the P938 is over 6,000 rounds (in 14 months) and the magazines function flawlessly.
With the 4586, I was actually taught to keep it road ready. I occasionally had failures but the gun was poo poo anyways.
Really never used a G22 but I should clarify that none of that happened to me with 9mm nor .45
It does seems, anecdotally, that a lot of issues I've had was just .40 in general.
I did not know this was an issue for other people. Not saying I doubt it, just hadn't happened to me.
jschmitt08
02-22-17, 09:13
Where I work, we carry 30 rounds in our pmags. Before I got involved, we had metal mags loaded with 28 rounds. No one really had an answer as to why. Now, our problem is with officers loading 31 rounds in the pmags. I had to make up pictures of properly/improperly loaded mags labeled "good" and "bad" and explain that you should always be able to depress the top round slightly. It still took a while to get everyone on board.
sevenhelmet
02-22-17, 09:33
30 rounds, period.
It takes bubba levels of pressure to load a 31st round into a PMAG. I tried that once when I was just starting to use them. The mag definitely tells you when it's full.
Now I use a bench loader- it speeds up the loading process a ton and eliminates errors like that.
I was taught to download all GI mags to 28. I actually load my mags to 30. I use GI mags with Magpul followers and PMAGs.
I verify function at full capacity before I call it good.
With the 4586, I was actually taught to keep it road ready. I occasionally had failures but the gun was poo poo anyways.
Really never used a G22 but I should clarify that none of that happened to me with 9mm nor .45
It does seems, anecdotally, that a lot of issues I've had was just .40 in general.
I did not know this was an issue for other people. Not saying I doubt it, just hadn't happened to me.
Our agency did not teach people to top off the magazine after chambering a cartridge. We were also taught to empty the magazines once a month, then reload them. Most of us never had a magazine issue.
I'm having a discussion in a law enforcement group about filling magazines to capacity, and unfortunately, many of them are advocating downloading magazines to as low as 26 rounds.
Uggh.
Anyone have any links or videos from reputable sources to try and dispel this myth? We all know that 30 round magazines deserve 30 rounds.
Thanks
There are a few primary reasons we see this done as LE isntructors with various agencies, some are right, and some are wrong.
1. The first is a throw back to guys using old military magazines, and 30 rounds being maximum capacity making it hard is a few weapons to seat a mag on a closed bolt.
2. For a long time, many of the senior range staff/ range sgt/ range instructors were all military vets, and after they left, their replacements carried on with the policy of downloading based on stories they had heard.
3. Cops don't count bullets. They BS with guys from other districts and tell war stories while complaining about the brass. They load magazines until no more bullets go in. Thirty one, thirty two, and even guys/ girls struggling to put in a thirty third aren't not uncommon. Counting bullets isn't a priority in training, and it isn't when loading duty ammo. This is a reason why when they are issued ammunition it is typically in the box, instead of loose.
Regarding getting information from a reputable source, I've been a range officer and firearm instructor for decades, and hold one of the highest titles available (not that it really matters) achievable for instructors. I have worked with everyone from small sleepy towns, to violent cities, feds, and armed secretary agencies.
Our agency did not teach people to top off the magazine after chambering a cartridge. We were also taught to empty the magazines once a month, then reload them. Most of us never had a magazine issue.
I think we are only talking AR15s with the OP.
I would hope every agency teaches to top off magazines with a side arm, and not to with a long gun, but that is probably a topic for another thread.
When I was in a Pat McNamara class a while back he advocated loading a 30 round magazine to 30 rounds. He said that when he's fueling up his death stick he puts in a full tank. He went on to point out that stripper clips don't come in 10, 10, and 8. He also carries his mags with the rounds facing forward and grips/loads them similar to how most people load a pistol. After trying his method I found I like it better because it gets my palm under the magazine making it easy to give it a good shove to make sure it's seated properly.
When I was in a Pat McNamara class a while back he advocated loading a 30 round magazine to 30 rounds. He said that when he's fueling up his death stick he puts in a full tank. He went on to point out that stripper clips don't come in 10, 10, and 8. He also carries his mags with the rounds facing forward and grips/loads them similar to how most people load a pistol. After trying his method I found I like it better because it gets my palm under the magazine making it easy to give it a good shove to make sure it's seated properly.
This. I mean, maybe some mags are just too hard to seat, but I haven't come across any.
Pistol, and rifle, get top round in contact with bolt/slide, then shove it and it seats.
Since I started that, I haven't had a mag fail to seat when full... not even ever.
On the other hand, if I did. I'd download to 28 so we're back at square 1.
I also quit topping off my pistol. I like to have a place to put the spare round when I dry-fire. If I die because of 1 round, I'll just accept that it was my time?
sevenhelmet
02-23-17, 21:40
This. I mean, maybe some mags are just too hard to seat, but I haven't come across any.
Pistol, and rifle, get top round in contact with bolt/slide, then shove it and it seats.
Since I started that, I haven't had a mag fail to seat when full... not even ever.
On the other hand, if I did. I'd download to 28 so we're back at square 1.
I also quit topping off my pistol. I like to have a place to put the spare round when I dry-fire. If I die because of 1 round, I'll just accept that it was my time?
I'm confused by your post. Do you actually dry-fire with a magazine of live rounds in the well?
I'm confused by your post. Do you actually dry-fire with a magazine of live rounds in the well?
Not sure how you got that out of his post, I didn't read it that way at all.
jackblack73
02-24-17, 00:52
Remove mag. Remove chambered round. Store round in mag. Dry fire without mag inserted or round chambered. Seems pretty obvious to me.
Fluffy Bunny
02-24-17, 02:28
I'm having a discussion in a law enforcement group about filling magazines to capacity
The way I see it if they aren't paying you for your opinion, then don't stress about it.
I have a few mags that are crazy difficult to load when full. I consider them crappy "range mags". Although I personally don't load full-cap, I believe that every magazine should be usable at its intended capacity.
Have your own nuts and do what works for you. I've never had a carbine(AUG/Tavor/MCX/AR) not accept a fully loaded mag whether it be a g1-3 Pmag, GI, many flavors. I don't have to beat the mag, etc, seat and tug, good to go.
In my opinion, most simply parrot what someone else said and never see for themselves. I top off my pistol as well, where does the round from the chamber go? ---haven't figured that out yet:sarcastic:
NSN 1005-01-561-7200 Magazine, Cartridge, 5.56mm, 30-Round (M4/M16 Improved Magazine with Tan Follower). If this magazine was really intended to hold 28 rounds as some have noted, it would not mention 30 rounds in the official item designation. I have used a large number of USGI 30 rd (and 20 rd) magazines and have never experienced a situation where the full magazine would not seat against a closed bolt in a mil spec weapon. All did require a firm rap on the floorplate to seat the full magazine but I expected that to be the case.
I'm in Canada where our semi auto rifle mags are extremely neutered to 5 rounds and our pistol mags are neutered to 10.
Since Magpul doesn't manufacture 5 round magazines the distributor rivets the spine so that the follower cannot go down past the point where 5 rounds can be inserted.
They are so fearful of letting a mag go out the door with the ability to hold 6 rounds that they are pinned tight at 5 rounds.
I remove the rivet and file the follower to the point where I cannot fit 6 rounds yet I still have enough space to allow loading the mag on a closed bolt before replacing the rivet.
This is also why I have a range membership in Vermont.
I go to at least 4 carbine courses in Canada every year and it is unbelievable how many people can't load a mag with a closed bolt because of how they are pinned.
I typically bring enough extra mags to help out a couple of people having issues.
That being said no matter how many rounds your mags can hold, if the magazine doesn't lock into the rifle with a closed bolt or has failures to feed the first round after insertion on a closed bolt then you must decide if you want to stop using it or trash it.
As other have mentioned department rules are there to protect the lowest common denominator from themselves and the department from liability if an incident ever arises.
I wonder what percentage of the public purchases a modern sporting rifle and doesn't even function test it to see if it will accept a fully loaded magazine with a closed bolt?
I have mags of all types, some seat effortlessly with 30rds loaded, some need more effort. I get troops that range from 5'nothing 100lbs to 6'+ 300lbs. Some have the strength and leverage to seat a quirky mag, some don't. Keeping mags at 28 means that whichever troop grabbed whatever mag has a high likelihood of good insertion under a closed bolt and easy chambering. Pistol mags are downloaded only as needed. Sig 226s (9/40), Beretta 92/M9s, 9mm Glocks don't. Every once in awhile, a .40 or .45 Glock is tight enough to leave one a round out.
The worst possible outcome of the practice is that they're down a few rounds, and may get mocked on the internet.
I have mags of all types, some seat effortlessly with 30rds loaded, some need more effort. I get troops that range from 5'nothing 100lbs to 6'+ 300lbs. Some have the strength and leverage to seat a quirky mag, some don't. Keeping mags at 28 means that whichever troop grabbed whatever mag has a high likelihood of good insertion under a closed bolt and easy chambering. Pistol mags are downloaded only as needed. Sig 226s (9/40), Beretta 92/M9s, 9mm Glocks don't. Every once in awhile, a .40 or .45 Glock is tight enough to leave one a round out.
The worst possible outcome of the practice is that they're down a few rounds, and may get mocked on the internet.
Close this bad boy. Nothing more needs to be said.
vicious_cb
02-25-17, 01:42
You should tell people they should be loading 30+1 and watch everyone's collective heads explode :D
Why not go with the Daniel Defense mags that hold 32 rounds. Then you can load your 30...
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