No VFG in competition?

[Armati]

I see a lot of competitive shooters who do not run a VFG. Instead they run their thumb or index finger toward the target. Why?

Just trying to understand this technique. Thanks.

[Nick S]

Most competitive shooters don't run lights, lasers etc therefore there is no reason for a VFG.

Having your support hand further out on the tube/rail/whatever gives you a lateral input on the gun vs having two vertical inputs thus more control driving the gun.

Additionally, an unfettered tube/rail allows you to brace against barricades and access to small ports or apertures.

In my opinion about the only real need for a VFG in the absence of lights, lasers or other kit is for SBRs to give you a handstop thus avoiding wrapping your hand around a FS or brake.

Of course others will disagree and ultimately there is a high degree of subjectivity in regards to gear.

Good luck.

[Army Chief]

I don't draw from a wealth of particularly deep or diverse experience on the VFG issue, but as a general observation I find it instructive that this particular trend has now appeared to go almost full circle.

Until fairly recently in the AR-15's history (90's), there really was no such thing as a VFG option, and two generations of soldiers were able to employ the weapon in this configuration to great effect.

With the advent of the SOPMOD package(s), rails, lights and lasers became almost de rigueur, and the emergence of the VFG was a natural progression. Eventually sound doctrine on how to actually use such a thing followed, and as tactics improved, it seems to me that we started a migration back toward some of the more conventional support hand positions.

We went from embracing the standard VFG "chicken choke" hold to a much more minimal grip (hence the appearance of the stubby/chopped VFGs), and finally to a point at which many competent trainers and operators are today using the VFG as little more than a hand stop or reference point.

I've quietly wondered to myself if the next generation of VFG isn't likely to just be a small, short almost triangular "wedge,"instead of a full-purchase fore grip, but that is entirely beside the point. In terms of stability and the ability to rapidly transition from one target to the next, it would seem that a more horizontal support hand hold is coming back into vogue.

Granted, individual needs and weapon configurations will dictate exactly how you choose to train, but I believe one could make the case that the VFG is today viewed more as a useful piece of kit for a given situation, rather than a truly essential one across-the-board.

The more things change ... the more they stay the same. :)

Chief

[BushmasterFanBoy]

I myself shoot with my hand around the handguard until the gun heats up to the point where holding it by the VFG is essential to avoid burns. As I'm often without gloves, I keep the VFG on my gun at all times, and it stores extra batteries as well. I find that its also useful as a monopod in some positions/circumstances.

So, for me, it is a very utilitarian choice, and while I could go without it, an all black gun in 100* heat after a long string of fire is nothing I'd like to wrap my hand around. The VFG keeps my hand from getting burned, and that's the honest reason why I even have it on my gun.

I'd like to see if anyone else runs a VFG for the same reason... (always been curious)

[USMC03]

Much of the info in this post has been reposted and reposted. I wrote much of it back in early 2006:



The magwell hold is viable method at close distances.

As others have recommended, getting your had as far forward on the forend is the best way to drive the gun. Getting your support hand further out on the forend also provides better control, balance, and support.

Here is something I wrote on another board in reference as to why I put my vertical foregrip all the way forward on a 7.0 rail:


Running the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a carbine length rail is not anything new and it's not anything I thought up myself.

Guys much higher speed than me have been suggesting that I move my vertical foregrip all the way forward since 2003 or 2004.


I had tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward several times in the past and it just never "felt right" or was causing me some pain and discomfort due to an injured left shoulder.

In late May of last year, I tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward and everything finally "clicked". After several years and several attempts I finally figured out why there were so many advantages to having the vertical foregrip all the way forward.


Think of how things balance and piviot points and maybe the following will make some sense


I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear. Not a big issue when shooting in a CQB enviornment, but when engaging targets at further distances I have found this technique doesn't work well for me, and it's hard to keep the gun steady.


Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:

Think of your carbine like as if it were an old 1800's musket, you know the really long muskets. The stock is in your shoulder, and thus is supported at one end.

If you wanted the best control over the musket when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put your support hand? Would you want your support hand in close (near your firing hand), in the middle (dead center) of the musket, or as close as you could get it to the muzzle?

Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the muzzle as possible.


Here is an exercise to try to illistrate the point I'm trying to make. Pick several targets out in your area, and stagger the distance both from left to right and front to back (ie. target #1 @ 50 yards, target #2 @ 350 yards, target number #3 @ 175 yards, target #4 @ 25 yards, etc).

Now take the longest rifle you have avalible to you (it can be a hunting rifle, AR15A2, M1 Garand, etc....the longer the rifle the better) and put your support hand as close as you can to the firing hand and transition from targets 1 thru 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now move the support hand the middle of the gun (ie. as close to center as possible) and transition from targets 1 thru 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now, move the support hand as far out on the forend as possible and transition from targets 1 thru 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. (try this same exercise, once with the magwell hold and once with your support hand as far forward on the fore end as possible and you will quickly figure out which technique gives you the best control and the most advantages when driving the gun.)

I'm sure you will find that the further you get the hand out on the fore end the easier it is to control the gun, the quicker your transitions from one target to another, and when the support hand is in close you tend to "over shoot" your target but when it's further out, you can stop on a dime.

Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.

With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.

While at first having the vertical foregrip all the way forward feels ackward, I find that my support shoulder and arm doesn't fatigue as quickly and I can hold the gun up on target for longer periods of time.

When I grip the vertical foregrip, my support hand looks just like it does when shooting a pistol. My fingers are "hooked" around the grip and my thumb is pointing the same direction as the muzzle. I hold as high up on the grip as possible.



**************************************************************

When shooting without a vertical fore grip:


When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).

I place my hand as far forward on the fore end as possible while keeping my index finger on the fore end.

With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.

Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9146_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9146_img.jpg)



The reason I use my finger / thumb to point is I have noticed over the years that your eyes naturally want to go where ever your digits (fingers / thumbs) point and your digits will naturally index on a point that your eyes are already fixated on.




Semper Fi,
Jeff

[mike240]

My reason in the mid 90s was because I developed very bad tendonitise (?) in my support elbow. The rotation of going from the forearm to a VFG relieved it all. And my assignment often required carrying the long gun in a high ready or otherwise for a long period of time...I still have one on the work gun due to being able to use a fist squeeze method under the VFG to raise and lower when stuck on perimeter, to not reinjure that elbow (once you do it it will happen again) and to use lights easier.

When doing three gun, I do not use a VFG as I find that the gun swings, points and comes to a controlled stop faster. But I do not have to hold it for long periods on a stage.

I understand the comfort of the mag well hold method and you see it alot in the mil. And for many it is a hard habit to break. If you run a pressure pad for the light on the lower fine, but I feel you should have one mounting method regardless of lighting conditions. When I did conducted the unit training I required lights to used on all shots, all the time. So that they get used to doing it. whether pressing a button or a pressure switch, it is "input" into the gun from some direction and does effect accuracy.

Shooting in the daylight all the time using a method that does not allow light activation, then going through doors at night having to use another is just dumb.

[USSA-1]

Very few shooters use a VFG in competition, but then again, most don't really know how to use the VFG effectively. This use of a VFG can provide a significant competitive advantage if you use it correctly.

I've used one for several years on my competition rifle.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DPMS_rifle.JPG

USSA-1

[uscbigdawg]

Erik is pretty much THE guy that uses a VFG on his rifle in competition. Many question it, but his results speak for themselves.

Point being...try everything and find what works best for you.

Rich

[Battl3fr0nt]

When I got my First AR, I got it with a Cheap FVG and I started shooting with the FVG from the start it feels like I can controll the weapon much better when doing rapid shooting and I can use it to put pressure on for even more controllability.
I also feel I can get on target faster using a FVG.. I have a LaRue Tactical FVG on my Armalite (Mid to long range setup) and for my LMT (CQB setup) I have a TangoDown QUICK DETACH Vertical Grip,
I like this one for CQ better since it is long.. The reason I went with the QD FVG's on my AR's is I feel they are more built on to the weapon and no wiggle in them. I do most of my bench shooting with my Armalite HBAR Middy and
I use the FVG to push up on the bench rest and kind of lean into it more for the 400M shots. I can shoot with out them but it is much more comfortable for me to shoot with them and I have tryed putting them all the way to the front of the
Handgaurds but it just does not feel right, but for every man his own. I have seen more competitive shooters using FVG's with AR's but not so much in 3 gun as I remember.. But as for speed and control the FVG is the way to go in most cases.