View Full Version : Lead ammo ban order reversed by new Interior Secretary
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/02/new-interior-secretary-zinke-reverses-last-minute-obama-lead-ammunition-ban.html
One of the many things that the current administration erased from the final acts of the previous regime. And the new ex-SEAL Secretary of Interior rode in to work on his first day on a horse.
platoonDaddy
03-03-17, 07:09
Thank god hillaryBeast didn't win!
Love riding to work in a horse!
horseman234
03-03-17, 07:47
Another great Trump appointment!
Averageman
03-03-17, 08:06
But, but, but....
Lead will be in the ground !
Kind of where it started from...
I don't hunt, but I didn't realize that hunters used lead casings. Takes serious balls to trust lead cases ammo to hold all that pressure. Guess that biodiversity guy should do more research before commenting.
Riding a horse to work. LOL. New level of green commuter.
Eurodriver
03-03-17, 09:32
But, but, but....
Lead will be in the ground !
Kind of where it started from...
Cool. Let's put use your backyard for uranium abd lead storage.
I think the lead hunting ban was ridiculous, hunters only shoot one round? However there have been definitive studies showing birds of prey dying because they were eating lead that found its way into tossed guts in the form of bullets and field dresses game.
Statements like yours go a long way toward showing how absolutely idiotic some conservatives can be about the environment.
Case in point:
https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/projects/sawgrass/
A study conducted in the late 1990s showed that the land on the west side of Sawgrass Lake contained elevated levels of lead and arsenic.
This is a result of shooting from a nearby gun range that, by law, was allowed to have spent lead shot fall on a portion of the District’s land.
Is anyone here really ok with that?
Whiskey_Bravo
03-03-17, 09:49
Is anyone here really ok with that?
Maybe?
"Elevated levels" can mean a lot. If I take a handful of shot and throw it in your front yard you now have elevated lead levels in your front yard. They didn't mention if it was a health hazard to people or if animals were being affected, just that a study from the 90s showed elevated levels.
Everyday I think it just can't get any better… And then our new President and his Administration prove me wrong. I'm so happy with them all, that I'm teary eyed just thinking about it. Pelosi is flying around back and forth across the country (Well, she used to anyway…) on her jet and THIS guy is riding to work on a horse! Fan-freakin'-tastic! And then when he gets to work, he immediately starts undoing the damage and BS left over from the last administration. My hat is off to Zinke. Thank you sir. Thank you very much.
What did we ever do before we had BHO and is ilk to protect us from lead casings that come out of those magazine clips in the shoulder thingies that go up??? How will all the wildlife survive without their omnipotent help??? BLECHHHH… Good riddance!
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-03-17, 11:52
How elevated?
Risk is hazard and exposure.
Something can be very dangerous, but if contained and not exposed to it, it is not a risk, or has a certain level of risk.
That is the problem with 'bans' is that some chemicals are awesome at what they do from a cost and performance aspect. Handle them right and there is very little risk. Removing all risk from one chemical with a ban and you open up risk from a new chemical- or reduced performance and/or higher cost.
I was at the USGBC LEED Greenbuild this year and you should have seen two greenies battle over whether copper or PVC piping was worse. They literally fought to a standstill.
A lady freaked out that she has to stay in a hotel full of flame-retardants. I'm far more afraid of staying in a hotel with out any flame retardants, because of the retards.
The the plastic water drinking cups with a big sign saying "Biodegradable" was especially funny in that half way through they ran out of PLA cups and just put PS cups out. If you can't source water cups at the High Temple of Green buildings....
Not saying that you have to worry about lead and arsenic, just what does elevated mean?
And the real story here is that lead levels and rules will be the exact same as they were for 99.14% of the BHO admin.
dwhitehorne
03-03-17, 17:39
[QUOTE=Eurodriver
Is anyone here really ok with that?[/QUOTE]
So one study from 20 plus years ago has you convinced. Who decides what is definitive. Do you think maybe if the study was reported to find absolutely nothing the company/people performing the study would ever be hired again for follow up studies. Definitive studies also state human beings exhaling is destroying the planet. Let's also remember what administration was in office for most of the 90's David
ForTehNguyen
03-03-17, 21:48
Cool. Let's put use your backyard for uranium abd lead storage.
I think the lead hunting ban was ridiculous, hunters only shoot one round? However there have been definitive studies showing birds of prey dying because they were eating lead that found its way into tossed guts in the form of bullets and field dresses game.
Statements like yours go a long way toward showing how absolutely idiotic some conservatives can be about the environment.
Case in point:
https://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/projects/sawgrass/
Is anyone here really ok with that?
this study said nothing if those elevated levels were the cause of any long term damage. Not only that, a study they didnt even put a citation for. How much elevated? 1%? .000001%? You know when someone eats a banana they get elevated levels of radiation? If you fly from New York to LA, you get 400x the radiation you get from eating the banana. All of these levels of radiation are harmless. Dont fall for vague studies like this then lecture us on how "idiotic some conservatives can be about the environment"
So I can put some of you guys down for a 1 pound order of my new 'Choco-Covered Shot' formulated for the serious naysayer?
So, is everyone here that is in disagreement with the reversal using lead free bullets and steel shot for all their shooting? I certainly hope so, ya know, hypocracy and all..... While we're at it, let's ban lead air gun pellets, fishing weights, etc.
Eurodriver
03-04-17, 06:27
You guys convinced me. 70 years of lead shot in a lake won't lead to any harmful effects. Fabricated study.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/investigations/2015/08/26/sawgrass-lakeswfwmdskyway-gun-club10-investigates/32429531/
had them analyzed by Thorton Laboratory, we found the levels of lead far exceeded Florida Department of Environmental Protection standards for groundwater discharge.
Fake news. Let's put lead back in our gasoline while we're at it, and our water pipes.
On the other hand, let's see:
Using 1oz of lead per shot, 500 shots a day (very conservative - Myself and 3 friends fired 150 by ourselves, and yes it was steel) 360 days a year = 180,000oz per year (That's >5 1/2 tons per year)
The club's been doing this for 70 years. I now know that well over 200 tons of lead (being conservative, again) in a wetlands area that is now surrounded by neighborhoods is totally safe. Thank you for educating me M4C.
So, is everyone here that is in disagreement with the reversal using lead free bullets and steel shot for all their shooting? I certainly hope so, ya know, hypocracy and all..... While we're at it, let's ban lead air gun pellets, fishing weights, etc.
Where did you see anyone disagree with the reversal? I saw one (me), maybe two people state that lead can be dangerous and then some folks got oddly defensive about it. However everyone seems to be glad this ban has been reversed. Did I miss something?
You guys convinced me. 70 years of lead shot in a lake won't lead to any harmful effects. Fabricated study.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/investigations/2015/08/26/sawgrass-lakeswfwmdskyway-gun-club10-investigates/32429531/
Fake news. Let's put lead back in our gasoline while we're at it, and our water pipes.
On the other hand, let's see:
Using 1oz of lead per shot, 500 shots a day (very conservative - Myself and 3 friends fired 150 by ourselves, and yes it was steel) 360 days a year = 180,000oz per year (That's >5 1/2 tons per year)
The club's been doing this for 70 years. I now know that well over 200 tons of lead (being conservative, again) in a wetlands area that is now surrounded by neighborhoods is totally safe. Thank you for educating me M4C.
Where did you see anyone disagree with the reversal? I saw one (me), maybe two people state that lead can be dangerous and then some folks got oddly defensive about it. However everyone seems to be glad this ban has been reversed. Did I miss something?
It seems to me that we are talking about 2 different things. On one hand. I'm fine with the Dept of Interior lifting a ban on led fishing tackle and ammunition for the purposes of individual hunting. I'm not aware of any studies showing that individual hunters or fishermen are raising environmental lead to unsafe levels.
On the other hand, I'm not cool with organizations setting up ranges on land adjacent to watersheds or wetlands. I have no problem the local governments shutting those ranges down and even hold them financially responsible for the cleanup. My right to shoot on my land extends right up to the point where I'm endangering others safety.
But, but, but....
Lead will be in the ground !
Kind of where it started from...
And as I understand it, adds no lead to the environment. You'll find bullets hundreds of years old with a little corrosion on them, and essentially no changes. I used to dig up lead musket balls from the 1600s around our property and they were perfectly in tact.
Lead in water however is a different matter and avoiding wet lands, etc, appears warranted.
Im a fan of less government. People are hypocrites. My post wasn't directed at anyone specifically.
I guess we should quit driving gasoline and diesel powered vehicles, only use electricity generated from clean non carbon emitting sources, ban all aerosols, ban all freon, etc. I can find studies that say every one of those will kill us. No one would run a hose attached to their tail pipe into the vehicle and roll up the windows but we'll pump it into the atmosphere while running the air conditioner driving to the WMA to hunt ducks with steel shot.
Anyone have amalgum fillings? Oh shit, go sue your dentist for poisoning you with mercury and other heavy metals. Surely a government licensed medical care giver isn't putting a heavy metal that's proven to kill into your mouth. Lol.
I'm not gonna sprinkle lead dust on my meal. I'm not going to quit killing doves, squirrels, rabbits, deer, or pigs with lead either. I have no plans to quit shooting/training with lead ammo. I'm always a fan of less government in our lives. I'm waiting on the studies that show water fowl hunting with steel shot is a contributing factor in iron poisoning. Haha
And as I understand it, adds no lead to the environment. You'll find bullets hundreds of years old with a little corrosion on them, and essentially no changes. I used to dig up lead musket balls from the 1600s around our property and they were perfectly in tact.
Lead in water however is a different matter and avoiding wet lands, etc, appears warranted.
To elaborate: Lead only becomes a problem in acidic conditions. The area where you found these old musket balls would have to have a pH of 7.0 or higher. In a swamp with high levels of tannic acid and carbonic acid, with a pH lower than 7.0, lead could be a problem. This is also why ingested lead is an issue, for those animals eating gut piles with a lead rounds in them.
As Sensei pointed out, one individual expending a few rounds in a forest in a day will do nothing. Dozens of people a day putting hundreds of rounds into an area with acidic conditions could cause a problem.
To elaborate: Lead only becomes a problem in acidic conditions. The area where you found these old musket balls would have to have a pH of 7.0 or higher. In a swamp with high levels of tannic acid and carbonic acid, with a pH lower than 7.0, lead could be a problem. This is also why ingested lead is an issue, for those animals eating gut piles with a lead rounds in them.
As Sensei pointed out, one individual expending a few rounds in a forest in a day will do nothing. Dozens of people a day putting hundreds of rounds into an area with acidic conditions could cause a problem.
Makes perfect sense. A total ban is as logical as zero regs as to where people can shoot lead rnds in my view.
You guys convinced me. 70 years of lead shot in a lake won't lead to any harmful effects. Fabricated study.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/investigations/2015/08/26/sawgrass-lakeswfwmdskyway-gun-club10-investigates/32429531/
Fake news. Let's put lead back in our gasoline while we're at it, and our water pipes.
On the other hand, let's see:
Using 1oz of lead per shot, 500 shots a day (very conservative - Myself and 3 friends fired 150 by ourselves, and yes it was steel) 360 days a year = 180,000oz per year (That's >5 1/2 tons per year)
The club's been doing this for 70 years. I now know that well over 200 tons of lead (being conservative, again) in a wetlands area that is now surrounded by neighborhoods is totally safe. Thank you for educating me M4C.
Where did you see anyone disagree with the reversal? I saw one (me), maybe two people state that lead can be dangerous and then some folks got oddly defensive about it. However everyone seems to be glad this ban has been reversed. Did I miss something?
For the record, I'm glad the ban was lifted - it was too restrictive, but I also get your concern.
At the place I retired from, we did 90% of our shotgun training on metal. When I figured the amount of lead hitting our metal I used 7/8 oz because the majority of our training was with skeet/field loads of 71/2 shot. It came to almost 11 pounds of lead per recruit x 250 (minimum) a year. There would be lead powder thick on the ground surrounding our most used target line. During the last 15 or so years I worked we had annual lead tests. The only time I popped a remotely worrisome lead level was a test during the time frame I was using a heat gun and completely stripping the ornate trim on my older home. That rise didn't put me in the danger zone, the only reason that I had to go in for a retest was that it was elevated from my baseline.
In addition to that our range was in the area of a groundwater pollution plume emanating from a former Naval Air Station. We had a monitoring well located just off our range, behind our berm. I was concerned we'd get shut down and did some checking. I learned that the lead from our range would not pose a realistic pollution threat.
As you mentioned, the real threat is when lead is ingested by mouth or lead vapors are breathed in. It made sense to ban lead shot for migratory waterfowl because of shot concentration in wetland hunting areas. It would make no sense to ban it from most skeet ranges, or for upland game hunting.
It seems to me a more rational step would be to lift the general ban and replace it with more nuanced restrictions where warranted.
Notwithstanding all that, there are a number of us who would swear all smoking does is cut your wind had Obama's Surgeon General been the one to put the warning on tobacco products.
To elaborate: Lead only becomes a problem in acidic conditions. The area where you found these old musket balls would have to have a pH of 7.0 or higher. In a swamp with high levels of tannic acid and carbonic acid, with a pH lower than 7.0, lead could be a problem. This is also why ingested lead is an issue, for those animals eating gut piles with a lead rounds in them.
As Sensei pointed out, one individual expending a few rounds in a forest in a day will do nothing. Dozens of people a day putting hundreds of rounds into an area with acidic conditions could cause a problem.
Go figure. Someone who knows what they are talking about came along. Thank you.
Cool. Let's put use your backyard for uranium abd lead storage.
Is anyone here really ok with that?
Yes, because those issuing the order don't actually give a shit about its purported purpose. This was a power grab and a swipe at their political opponents, and nothing more.
We already have plenty of restrictions on hunting with lead shot.
Eurodriver
03-04-17, 20:58
Yes, because those issuing the order don't actually give a shit about its purported purpose. This was a power grab and a swipe at their political opponents, and nothing more.
We already have plenty of restrictions on hunting with lead shot.
I'm glad we are in full agreement on the issue regarding lead ammo hunting bans.
Why did you quote that post which was unrelated?
Do you understand someone an agree that lead bullet hunting bans are political attacks and do nothing for the environment while simultaneously not wanting 200+ tons in a conservation wetland area near their home?
Hell, does anyone on this forum get that?
I feel like I'm arguing with Moose Knuckle.
It's obviously bothering you Euro. Petition your state representative to introduce legislation banning lead shot/bullets in wetlands. The Cheeto Jesus is proposing a trillion $ spending bill. Maybe said rep can get some of those dollars for a clean up. It'd look good for the republicans to spend tax dollars for the environment. Just remember, they may not stop where your concerns on the matter do. That's always the problem with government.
I'm not tryin to be argumentative but what did you hope to accomplish with the topic? Raise awareness? Convince people to stop using lead ammo at shooting ranges in areas with unfavorable soil conditions and wetlands? Voice concern? Not everyone will hold the same opinion and that doesn't make one side right or wrong. Seems discussion is only good for some when their point of view is accepted by everyone. Is there a middle ground on every issue?
I, for one, am in agreement with you. I don't want anyone poisoning our land with anything. Yet at the same, I am understandably very concerned about government over-reach and stupidity, which as we all know is the norm nowadays. When environmental extremists and animal rightists are setting the tone and policy, instead of science and facts, we have an issue. I think what this place 100% agrees upon is the optimistic hope that this new administration is going to bring some common sense back to our country and start doing the "right" things, instead of pandering to emotional whackos.
Cool. Let's put use your backyard for uranium abd lead storage.
Yes Zinke reversal and putting Uranium in your backyard are environmentally the same thing.
Keep it about the lead ban, not your opinion of GD or distribution of opinions. That's precisely how threads go downhill.
Off topic content removed.
Eurodriver
03-05-17, 18:43
Yes Zinke reversal and putting Uranium in your backyard are environmentally the same thing.
I'm glad this lead ban was overturned. It was overtly political and did nothing to help the environment.
Hopefully going forward Zinke can put in place policies that protect both hunters and our natural resources.
PS You're a bit late to the fun stuff. Better to heed ST911's more recent warning about keeping it on topic.
Averageman
03-05-17, 18:55
I'm glad this lead ban was overturned. It was overtly political and did nothing to help the environment.
Hopefully going forward Zinke can put in place policies that protect both hunters and our natural resources.
PS You're a bit late to the fun stuff. Better to heed ST911's more recent warning about keeping it on topic.
So after all of this, You finally agree with me?
You're a bit younger than I am, I've seen a few things that perhaps you haven't and I know some over reach when I see it.
No, I don't want a wasteland like we had in a few places in the 1960's and 1970's, but we've come a long way since then haven't we?
This wasn't about the environment, it was about guns and bullets.
So basically we are arguing that 1+2=3. Not that 2+1=3???
We all agree the ban was retarded cause it was political bullshit instead of something of substance to help both the environment and people accessing it. We all also hope that the new sec uses his position to do right by the environment, animals and people instead of trying to score political points for his party. Go figure.
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