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***I figured I would resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one; vicious cb made some great points about why we don’t hammer forge stainless for accuracy benefits. But stainless has chromium, and chromium is work hardened, so perhaps stainless would be the better steel to hammer forge because it will also get work hardened and become even more dense?!***
Is there anyone who makes a CHF Stainless steel barrel with a nitride treatment?
I'm just thinking out loud so please, correct me if I'm wrong; but chrome lined CHF doesn't sound very practical to me, because it seems like the benefits of the CHF would only be seen after the chrome has been shot out, and by then it's time to get a new barrel.
Stainless steel would be good for the accuracy benefit, even though it wears faster. But in my thinking, if it starts out more accurate then it can afford to wear a little bit more. Hammer forging the steel would bring out even more accuracy and wear resistance.
The nitride would increase the outer hardness of the barrel, and nitride treatment can happen after the fact. Is there anyone who sells a CHF stainless barrel? Especially an 11.5" one?
The chrome lining is only as good as the base metal. The better the base metal, the more effective the chrome lining will be.
PSA offers a SS CHF barrel (or did), but it's rare. I don't know if it's available in an 11.5" length or not
vicious_cb
03-05-17, 21:56
Is there anyone who makes a CHF Stainless steel barrel with a nitride treatment?
I'm just thinking out loud so please, correct me if I'm wrong; but chrome lined CHF doesn't sound very practical to me, because it seems like the benefits of the CHF would only be seen after the chrome has been shot out, and by then it's time to get a new barrel.
Stainless steel would be good for the accuracy benefit, even though it wears faster. But in my thinking, if it starts out more accurate then it can afford to wear a little bit more. Hammer forging the steel would bring out even more accuracy and wear resistance.
The nitride would increase the outer hardness of the barrel, and nitride treatment can happen after the fact. Is there anyone who sells a CHF stainless barrel? Especially an 11.5" one?
I dont think you understand barrel manufacturing or any of these processes very well.
First of all, stainless steel barrels are accurate not because of the material but because stainless steel can be machined easier thus its easier to make a more consistent bore. If you CHF a stainless barrel and a CMV barrel both barrels would have the same accuracy potential since they are both formed around the exact same mandrel except one would have a shorter lifespan.
Also you are wrong in the statement that CHF doesnt help immediately, the chrome in the throat area DOES wear away rather quickly, so you do see an advantage in the work hardening CHF provides sooner rather than later.
Not even going to go into nitride since there are probably a dozen threads on nitride vs chromelined.
Totally correct, that's why I'm asking questions.
So if stainless is more accurate because it's easier to machine, why don't they just use softer carbon steel?
vicious_cb
03-05-17, 22:18
Totally correct, that's why I'm asking questions.
So if stainless is more accurate because it's easier to machine, why don't they just use softer carbon steel?
Carbon steel has poor corrosion resistance, we get around that by chrome lining, except chrome lining is imprecise(relatively). Stainless is both corrosion resistant and easy to machine. You can absolutely get an accurate CMV unlined barrel, you just have to baby it more.
Ok that makes sense. So why isn't there any CHF Nitride 4150 barrels?
vicious_cb
03-05-17, 22:29
Ok that makes sense. So why isn't there any CHF Nitride 4150 barrels?
The CHF machines are expensive. AFAIK only DD and FN have them and maybe KAC. FN makes barrels for the mil. which specs chrome lined and DD also makes their barrels to mil-spec.
When it comes to accuracy, a well made 4150 barrel will be a bit more accurate than it's stainless steel counterpart. At the beginning. But, the two materials have different wear patterns. 4150 will wear slowly with each shot and accuracy will degrade with the wear. Groups open up gradually. Accuracy of the stainless steel barrel remains the same throughout it's life, which most precision shooters prefer. There is a price, however. When a stainless steel barrel does wear enough to affect accuracy, the loss is sudden and very noticeable because the rifling at the throat, instead of wearing down, breaks away in chunks.
You can get nitrided 4150 barrels. I recently bought one from PSA in an 11.5" length that was on sale for $80. It's not CHF but it'll take a lot of shooting to wear it out
I see that Daniel Defense has some 16" and 18" S2W CHF Nitride barrels, I hope they come out with shorter ones!
I've heard of some competition bolt rifle shooter's breaking in their stainless barrels to a certain sweet spot and then sending said barrel off to be nitrided. This process is supposed to harden the barrel in it's broken-in state and prolong the sweet spot to a certain extent. I would just go for a DD or FN factory CHF/CL if I were in the market though. Shoot it until it strings and replace it.
I figured I would resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one; vicious cb made some great points about why we don’t hammer forged stainless for accuracy benefits. But stainless has chromium, and chromium is work hardened, so perhaps stainless would be the better steel to hammer forge because it will also get work hardened and become even more dense?!
Lot of smoke being blown around here. I wonder how much of it will find it's way up the OP's ass.
Lot of smoke being blown around here. I wonder how much of it will find it's way up the OP's ass.
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion; what do you mean?
I figured I would resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one; vicious cb made some great points about why we don’t hammer forged stainless for accuracy benefits. But stainless has chromium, and chromium is work hardened, so perhaps stainless would be the better steel to hammer forge because it will also get work hardened and become even more dense?!
It still won't be as dense as a CMV barrel. Why settle for the softer metal, if you're forging it anyway? The point of using SS is to be able to cut it precisely. If you're not cutting the barrel... It might make you feel warm and fuzzy to have a CHF SS barrel (which you can get) but I suspect most people wouldn't care for one. And the manufacturers probably understand that.
Good point, the reason I ask is because I’ve located several ss chf nitride barrels, but it doesn’t seem like many people are making a cmv one.
Then there is Polygonal rifling. Some say that's better than the traditional rifling??
turnburglar
12-04-17, 19:31
To the OP: it sounds to me like you are chasing accuracy of the platform by trying to add up all the features that you read are 'best'.
Honestly a tight group is much more about finding that magic combination of bullet that your barrel likes. YOUR barrel. Barrels from the exact same batch (same specs) may like different loads. The best example of this besides dragging a ton of guns out and shooting all the bullets through them, would be to watch Molon's precision threads he does on barrels. Consistently through his posts: a barrel with 'poor' specs (CL/4150) can shoot INCREDIBLY good. Infact if I was really really bent on getting the 'best barrel' I would get a Colt. Thats based just on Molon's documentation.
In reality I just bought a faxon match. I bought the barrel more for the profile and length (14.5 gunner) than I did for the nitride, stainless Steel, or even the 5r rifling. I simply choose the match over the regular barrel because I have a real stash of 77gr ammo and do like shooting my carbine as far as the desert will let me. Honestly though I doubt as a shooter I would put either barrel passed its mechanical accuracy.
I figured I would resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one; vicious cb made some great points about why we don’t hammer forged stainless for accuracy benefits. But stainless has chromium, and chromium is work hardened, so perhaps stainless would be the better steel to hammer forge because it will also get work hardened and become even more dense?!
That’s not necessarily how alloys work.
Density and hardness are independent of one another.
Thanks for the info guys, I’m just thinking out loud and trying to figure it out.
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