View Full Version : Thousands of Marines Compromised by Nude Photos
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/articles/marines-nude-photo-scandal
Well, it looks like NCIS will be busy for a while. It seems that a group of active duty and veteran Marines set up a Facebook page to share photos of naked female colleagues. Many of the women appeared to have been stalked or had their picture taken without their consent. The numbers of servicemembers involved in the illegal activity is thought to be in the hundreds. Plenty of the illicit photos are tagged with the victims names and other personal information making this a PERSEC nightmare.
Oh, and the reporter who broke the story? Well, members of our armed forces are on the page calling for his murder and the rape/murder of his wife and daughters.
This isn't going to end well.
This isn't going to end well.
No. Nor should it.
That stupid TV show aside, this is about as significant a case as most NCIS agents will get.
This isn't going to end well.
Hopefully it ends with at least 5 years and dishonorable discharges for all contributors to the Facebook page. I think that the cyberstalking buys 3 years, and I'm sure that failure to safeguard / publishing sensitive personal information, conduct unbecoming, etc. wins a few more years. Hell, perhaps building the extra prisons can be part of Trump's infrastructure spending; I hear that the numbers of participants may be in the thousands...
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-17, 09:50
That article in the OP link is a horrible piece of journalism and a great example of what goes wrong when someone doesn't have an editor. It covers waterboarding, LGBT issues and fat-shaming. It also brings in violence against women on college campuses. Between the military and college campuses, why is it so hard to prosecute sex crimes? The military is obviously different, but the college campus stuff drives me nuts. If someone is guilty of sexual assault, why do we leave it to college campuses to deal with it? These things happen outside of college campuses and the police take care of it. Why do we allow colleges to be safe zone for predators while denying basic civil rights to other defendants. With this scandal, find the crimes and charge and convict people. If it conduct incompatible with service, follow the correct path. It sounds like a lot of this was passed around pictures of girlfriends. Hasn't this been a problem since the Poloroid camera was invented?
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 09:56
What's being ignored here are the dozens of Marines who were saved through efforts on said page. Guys who had given up hope and the only thing that brought them back from the edge was immediate intervention by their brothers in arms. Now that the page is gone and that network no longer exists, more good men will slip through the cracks to become statistics.
That article in the OP link is a horrible piece of journalism and a great example of what goes wrong when someone doesn't have an editor. It covers waterboarding, LGBT issues and fat-shaming. It also brings in violence against women on college campuses. Between the military and college campuses, why is it so hard to prosecute sex crimes? The military is obviously different, but the college campus stuff drives me nuts. If someone is guilty of sexual assault, why do we leave it to college campuses to deal with it? These things happen outside of college campuses and the police take care of it. Why do we allow colleges to be safe zone for predators while denying basic civil rights to other defendants. With this scandal, find the crimes and charge and convict people. If it conduct incompatible with service, follow the correct path. It sounds like a lot of this was passed around pictures of girlfriends. Hasn't this been a problem since the Poloroid camera was invented?
If you don't like that article, the Google "Marine + photos" and you will find other articles from USA Today, WaPo, CNN, RedState, BBC, Reuters, etc. If you read the articles, you will find that some of the photos came from the victim's hacked Instagram accounts, or were taken by Marines secretly posting pictures of colleagues in everyday life so that other Marines could post their fanstasies about raping the Marine being pictured.
By the way, a Marine passing around nude pictures of his Marine girlfriend on the internet without her consent is a felony - even if that picture was a Polaroid.
What's being ignored here are the dozens of Marines who were saved through efforts on said page. Guys who had given up hope and the only thing that brought them back from the edge was immediate intervention by their brothers in arms. Now that the page is gone and that network no longer exists, more good men will slip through the cracks to become statistics.
That sounds like a load of horseshit. All of the reports so far indicate that the Marines United Facebook page was created by a former Marine and DOD contractor solely for the purpose of sharing photos. Marines United Forever is a separate Facebook page that is not involved in this crap and still active. I'm sure that the Marines relying on the former for support will be able to receive counseling from their prison cells.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 11:09
If you don't like that article, the Google "Marine + photos" and you will find other articles from USA Today, WaPo, CNN, RedState, BBC, Reuters, etc. If you read the articles, you will find that some of the photos came from the victim's hacked Instagram accounts, or were taken by Marines secretly posting pictures of colleagues in everyday life so that other Marines could post their fanstasies about raping the Marine being pictured.
By the way, a Marine passing around nude pictures of his Marine girlfriend on the internet without her consent is a felony - even if that picture was a Polaroid.
That sounds like a load of horseshit. All of the reports so far indicate that the Marines United Facebook page was created by a former Marine and DOD contractor solely for the purpose of sharing photos. Marines United Forever is a separate Facebook page that is not involved in this crap and still active. I'm sure that the Marines relying on the former for support will be able to receive counseling from their prison cells.
Maybe you should hop down off your high horse for a second and look at my avatar and sig line.
I was a part of that group since the very beginning. The goal was first and foremost to help our brothers in their time of need. And it worked. Having a nationwide network of guys willing to drop everything and go talk someone off the edge was invaluable.
Pages like Marines United Forever are for washed up retirees to relive their glory days of standing by during the Cold War. GWOT vets generally aren't into that type of environment, thus pages like MU. Yeah, a select few people took things too far. But generalizing the entire group, and ignoring the good aspects of what it accomplished, is frankly ignorant.
Averageman
03-06-17, 11:15
Institutions have to police their own ranks in cases like this.
Everyone of those Women is serving, She's someone's Mother, Daughter or Sister.
That's pretty sick and damned ugly.
Eurodriver
03-06-17, 12:17
Oh no
I won't pretend to know all the specifics of this case nor every last detail.
However, I have oft had to tell people that there are no such things as private nude pictures anymore in the digital age.
Perhaps years ago a French Postcard on polaroid would have stayed in a dresser or locker. Perhaps a wallet.
Now dudes in China can perv on it.
Any nonconsensual photography and stalking is pretty beyond the pale.
I'm surprised nobody's gotten a busted kneecap over this shit yet.
I wasn't a memeber of said group, but from what I can gather it reminds me of the "make her famous" photos that used to get passed around of cheating spouses.
Maybe you should hop down off your high horse for a second and look at my avatar and sig line.
I was a part of that group since the very beginning...
...and along the way the group has allowed itself to be used by some of its members for some pretty heinous shit. I'll get off my high horse if you can show me where leadership from that group attempted to moderate the content. Until then, I'll continue to use a functional moral compass to say that an organization that tolerates this:
"In one instance, a woman corporal in uniform was followed at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina by a fellow Marine, who surreptitiously photographed her as she picked up her gear. Those photographs were posted online in the Facebook group “Marines United,” which has nearly 30,000 followers, drawing dozens of obscene comments.
One member of the Facebook group suggested the service member sneaking the photos should “take her out back and pound her out.” Others suggested more than vaginal sex:
“And butthole. And throat. And ears. Both of them. Video it though… for science.”
is likely to be part of the problem. Oh, and I'd be saying the same thing about M4C if it has a sub forum that allowed similar content.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 14:12
...and along the way the group has allowed itself to be used by some of its members for some pretty heinous shit. I'll get off my high horse if you can show me where leadership from that group attempted to moderate the content. Until then, I'll continue to use a functional moral compas to say that an organization that tolerates this:
is likely to be part of the problem. Oh, and I'd be saying the same thing about M4C if it has a sub forum that allowed similar content.
Every time the moderators were contacted about a picture it was removed. As far as the comments, well that's how a lot of Marines talk. It's not meant to be pubic, hence the secret group.
Basing your entire argument off of one article (every news report references the same information) is remarkably small-minded. I notice you again failed to recognize the role the group played in suicide prevention.
Every time the moderators were contacted about a picture it was removed. As far as the comments, well that's how a lot of Marines talk. It's not meant to be pubic, hence the secret group.
Basing your entire argument off of one article (every news report references the same information) is remarkably small-minded. I notice you again failed to recognize the role the group played in suicide prevention.
Good actions by a group or individual does not exonerate them from bad actions.
If a man talks someone off a bridge during the day and then that night goes and rapes a woman, he doesn't get top point to his actions during the day and claim it offsets the rape.
And the fact that the group was set to secret doesn't give it any protection. Facebook is still a public place and the group is responsible for the content posted on the page.
As for this being the way Marines talk... Bullshit. Show me a Marine who talks about casually raping a woman. And if you can, service to our country or not, I will gladly throw down right then and there against him.
Averageman
03-06-17, 14:29
Good actions by a group or individual does not exonerate them from bad actions.
If a man talks someone off a bridge during the day and then that night goes and rapes a woman, he doesn't get top point to his actions during the day and claim it offsets the rape.
And the fact that the group was set to secret doesn't give it any protection. Facebook is still a public place and the group is responsible for the content posted on the page.
As for this being the way Marines talk... Bullshit. Show me a Marine who talks about casually raping a woman. And if you can, service to our country or not, I will gladly throw down right then and there against him.
Bravo
I'm not defending creepshots or slut shaming because it's creepy and unbecoming. I won't even dignify the rape comments. That's just sick.
Probably the best bet would be to create a new place to share pain and suffering and how to cope, but nothing of a sexual nature or gallows humor. Cute puppies and kittens OK, boys will be boys not OK. Even back in the day if you did it face to face with your squad or platoon, you ran the risk of pissing off someone who fancied the girl in question. Making suggestive remarks about someone you find sexually attractive may have been a rite of passage once upon a time, but the world has moved on. You're now expected to keep your sexual urges and comments in the closet, well, unless you're coming out of the closet in which case you may be celebrated.
"Accepted" society has no idea that servicemen may have may feelings outside of grief and remorse over their experiences. Even then, they're expected to reveal those feelings to people smarter than them to sort out. Providing your own solutions isn't acceptable because you aren't trustworthy to fend for yourself. You're an automaton to be turned on and off when they need you and they'll handle diagnostics thank you very much.
Yeah, there's more than a bit of hyperbole in there, but there's a kernel of truth in there too. :(
hotrodder636
03-06-17, 14:47
Wow, sad news. Embarrassing for my Marine Corps brothers...and all of us.
Well the one thing nobody wants to seem to discuss is some of these female Marines took "selfies" and sent them to somebody else, probably another Marine.
This is generally a bad idea in the real world and it's a bad idea in Marine land. This is hardly a case of some "creepy / perv" Marines sneaking around bushes and taking shower pictures through the window of helpless female Marines. Seems there was some of that going on, but there was a whole lot more.
hotrodder636
03-06-17, 14:57
Selfies and the sharing of them is a pandemic of stupidity in our society. I am referring to nude selfies not "look at me I am at a football game" selfies...though there is a pandemic of those also.
Well the one thing nobody wants to seem to discuss is some of these female Marines took "selfies" and sent them to somebody else, probably another Marine.
This is generally a bad idea in the real world and it's a bad idea in Marine land. This is hardly a case of some "creepy / perv" Marines sneaking around bushes and taking shower pictures through the window of helpless female Marines. Seems there was some of that going on, but there was a whole lot more.
Well the one thing nobody wants to seem to discuss is some of these female Marines took "selfies" and sent them to somebody else, probably another Marine.
This is generally a bad idea in the real world and it's a bad idea in Marine land. This is hardly a case of some "creepy / perv" Marines sneaking around bushes and taking shower pictures through the window of helpless female Marines. Seems there was some of that going on, but there was a whole lot more.
Yeah, but I put that in the same category as HS boys ratting out their teachers who are willing to bang them. Are you really that stupid? Keep the damned pics to yourself and no one will know to judge you for stroking one out! :rolleyes:
Moose-Knuckle
03-06-17, 15:11
Well the one thing nobody wants to seem to discuss is some of these female Marines took "selfies" and sent them to somebody else, probably another Marine.
This is generally a bad idea in the real world and it's a bad idea in Marine land. This is hardly a case of some "creepy / perv" Marines sneaking around bushes and taking shower pictures through the window of helpless female Marines. Seems there was some of that going on, but there was a whole lot more.
Same thing happened to female IDF soldiers recently as I recall.
A lot of this sounds like a liberal witch hunt against Marines for talking like Marines and sharing pictures. Locker room talk and pictures are different than real victims.
A guy or girl who sends naked pics of themselves isn't a victim in the same way a legit rape victim is, if the naked pic person is actually a victim at all is even debatable. This isn't just my view, it is the view of my wife as well. If there are real victims who had pictures taken in an illegal way, that is a crime and needs to be addressed. That doesn't make everyone a victim who has a naked pic on the page. Nor does it mean people are getting raped, or the people viewing the pics are part of a "rape culture" (which is a made up feel good term used by the left). Nor does it make someone who forwarded or posted a picture that was taken illegally a criminal. KNOWLEDGE and INTENT come into play, and are pretty important.
Regarding the people who say these are someones daughter or wife, yes, they clearly are. However, the lack of good judgement on their part sending naked selfies should probably be something they talk to Mom and Hubby about. Again, real victims are different. Hurt feelings and regret do NOT make someone a victim!
Averageman
03-06-17, 15:44
My understand according to the article was that not all of these were "selfies" and not everyone who was in the photo's agreed to having them taken.
Then there is the whole sadomasochistic rape, sodomize and murder some folks rap which kind of puts a damper on the whole, "Boys being Boys" narrative doesn't it?
A lot of this sounds like a liberal witch hunt against Marines for talking like Marines and sharing pictures. Locker room talk and pictures are different than real victims.
A guy or girl who sends naked pics of themselves isn't a victim in the same way a legit rape victim is, if the naked pic person is actually a victim at all is even debatable. This isn't just my view, it is the view of my wife as well. If there are real victims who had pictures taken in an illegal way, that is a crime and needs to be addressed. That doesn't make everyone a victim who has a naked pic on the page. Nor does it mean people are getting raped, or the people viewing the pics are part of a "rape culture" (which is a made up feel good term used by the left). Nor does it make someone who forwarded or posted a picture that was taken illegally a criminal. KNOWLEDGE and INTENT come into play, and are pretty important.
Regarding the people who say these are someones daughter or wife, yes, they clearly are. However, the lack of good judgement on their part sending naked selfies should probably be something they talk to Mom and Hubby about. Again, real victims are different. Hurt feelings and regret do NOT make someone a victim!
The selfies (if posted with consent) are one thing. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't care about that. The problem is that it appears this went far beyond that. Stalking, taking video and photos without people knowledge, then the talk of rape. That is where the real line was crossed.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 16:23
Good actions by a group or individual does not exonerate them from bad actions.
If a man talks someone off a bridge during the day and then that night goes and rapes a woman, he doesn't get top point to his actions during the day and claim it offsets the rape.
And the fact that the group was set to secret doesn't give it any protection. Facebook is still a public place and the group is responsible for the content posted on the page.
As for this being the way Marines talk... Bullshit. Show me a Marine who talks about casually raping a woman. And if you can, service to our country or not, I will gladly throw down right then and there against him.
Show me one case of rape by a member of the page and I'll concede my point. Until then that's not a valid argument.
I'm not saying it has legal protection, I'm saying it was secret to keep the comments out of the public eye.
There was no talk of rape. Detailed, graphic sexual fantasies? Sure. Rape? Not so much. Marines, particularly infantry Marines, talk in a manner that would shock the majority of the country. That's the culture. Those who haven't been a part of it won't understand, nor would I expect them to.
A lot of this sounds like a liberal witch hunt against Marines for talking like Marines and sharing pictures. Locker room talk and pictures are different than real victims.
A guy or girl who sends naked pics of themselves isn't a victim in the same way a legit rape victim is, if the naked pic person is actually a victim at all is even debatable. This isn't just my view, it is the view of my wife as well. If there are real victims who had pictures taken in an illegal way, that is a crime and needs to be addressed. That doesn't make everyone a victim who has a naked pic on the page. Nor does it mean people are getting raped, or the people viewing the pics are part of a "rape culture" (which is a made up feel good term used by the left). Nor does it make someone who forwarded or posted a picture that was taken illegally a criminal. KNOWLEDGE and INTENT come into play, and are pretty important.
Regarding the people who say these are someones daughter or wife, yes, they clearly are. However, the lack of good judgement on their part sending naked selfies should probably be something they talk to Mom and Hubby about. Again, real victims are different. Hurt feelings and regret do NOT make someone a victim!
I'm glad you ran this by Mrs. Stick, otherwise what you wrote might come across as blaming the victims and glossing over some seriously heinous shit. All of the cases that have been so far reported are Marines who either didn't know they were being photographed or had their personal property stolen. You are the first to mention selfies.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 16:31
I'm glad you ran this by Mrs. Stick, otherwise what you wrote might come across as blaming the victims and glossing over some seriously heinous shit. All of the cases that have been so far reported are Marines who either didn't know they were being photographed or had their personal property stolen. You are the first to mention selfies.
The vast majority of pictures shared on the page were either selfies or pictures taken from public domain (Instagram, Tumblr, Facebook, etc).
Again, don't base your entire opinion of something off of one very biased source.
I'm glad you ran this by Mrs. Stick, otherwise what you wrote might come across as blaming the victims and glossing over some seriously heinous shit. All of the cases that have been so far reported are Marines who either didn't know they were being photographed or had their personal property stolen. You are the first to mention selfies.
I still feel like I have to preface what I say by flatly stating that I don't condone rape, creepshots or sexual misconduct. That being said, there's a WM who is telling everyone that because of some online comments over this, she can't reenlist. She also says her "private" Instagram photos were shared without her permission. I will post the link to the news article but not even her pics from the article, so feel free to make your own decisions:
http://heavy.com/news/2017/03/marisa-woytek-us-marine-scandal/
So her Instagram photos were shared. I don't know anything about Instagram or their privacy settings. I had to Google them to find out they don't allow basic nudity and some women try to go "art" to get around their nudity filters. I do happen to think she's pretty enough and I fantasized about a couple of hot WM's back in my day. Her dad was a Marine and she's married to a Marine, so I guess I don't get how she could be so naïve about how heterosexual young Marines think?
Can someone explain that to me?
Marines, particularly infantry Marines, talk in a manner that would shock the majority of the country. That's the culture. Those who haven't been a part of it won't understand, nor would I expect them to.
Just for those who don't speak Marine, what he means is that no one except a Terminal Lance understands another Terminal Lance.
I still feel like I have to preface what I say by flatly stating that I don't condone rape, creepshots or sexual misconduct. That being said, there's a WM who is telling everyone that because of some online comments over this, she can't reenlist. She also says her "private" Instagram photos were shared without her permission. I will post the link to the news article but not even her pics from the article, so feel free to make your own decisions:
http://heavy.com/news/2017/03/marisa-woytek-us-marine-scandal/
So her Instagram photos were shared. I don't know anything about Instagram or their privacy settings. I had to Google them to find out they don't allow basic nudity and some women try to go "art" to get around their nudity filters. I do happen to think she's pretty enough and I fantasized about a couple of hot WM's back in my day. Her dad was a Marine and she's married to a Marine, so I guess I don't get how she could be so naïve about how heterosexual young Marines think?
Can someone explain that to me?
Sorry homie. I'm a male who has never been cyberstalked at work. Why don't you send your question to Mrs. Woutek?
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 17:09
Sorry homie. I'm a male who has never been cyberstalked at work. Why don't you send your question to Mrs. Woutek?
So sharing pictures from a pubic website is now considered to be stalking? Or am I missing something here?
Good actions by a group or individual does not exonerate them from bad actions.
If a man talks someone off a bridge during the day and then that night goes and rapes a woman, he doesn't get top point to his actions during the day and claim it offsets the rape.
That's, unfortunately, not a reality in the military justice system.
I still feel like I have to preface what I say by flatly stating that I don't condone rape, creepshots or sexual misconduct. That being said, there's a WM who is telling everyone that because of some online comments over this, she can't reenlist. She also says her "private" Instagram photos were shared without her permission. I will post the link to the news article but not even her pics from the article, so feel free to make your own decisions:
http://heavy.com/news/2017/03/marisa-woytek-us-marine-scandal/
So her Instagram photos were shared. I don't know anything about Instagram or their privacy settings. I had to Google them to find out they don't allow basic nudity and some women try to go "art" to get around their nudity filters. I do happen to think she's pretty enough and I fantasized about a couple of hot WM's back in my day. Her dad was a Marine and she's married to a Marine, so I guess I don't get how she could be so naïve about how heterosexual young Marines think?
Can someone explain that to me?
Honestly, sounds like she made the best decision based upon her previously poor decision. If people seeing the "nekid pictures" she hosted online is enough to prevent her from reenlisting then she probably isn't somebody you need to depend on in times of crisis and she probably wouldn't do well in a Marine environment if she did reenlist.
With the exception of photos taken without the subjects knowledge, this is basically high school level Bad Decision Making 101. Some suspensions and after school detentions for all that played this silly ass game and that's about it. Anyone who actually took pictures without the knowledge of the individual (and I don't mean linked to a hosted account) probably need to be removed from service.
This is the kind of things hot chicks sometimes do, even if they are in the Marines, this is the kinda of response that is typically elicited from Marines when they see hot chicks. Again, it's high school but with uniforms and rifles.
So sharing pictures from a pubic website is now considered to be stalking? Or am I missing something here?
Well......Sensei may be stretching a bit here but....
Cyberstalking/Revenge Porn is a complicated matter. Not easy to prosecute but not impossible. It all boils down to opportunity and circumstantiality.
Example: Person B allows Person A to record a sexual encounter. Both are legal age. Person B goes on with life. Person A decides to share sexual encounter with Persons C-Z^100 without consulting Person B. No contract beyond oral (giggity) and nothing in writing. Sadly Person B is in a predicament because it seems like there is nothing she can do. There are a lot of unintended consequences of public humiliation and slander. But the way the law is revised, without legal consent recording a person in private alters the paradigm.
Technically it can be considered cyberstalking even if it doesnt seem like "normal" stalking.
This is why when people do legit porno, they fill out a lot of paperwork and waivers.
Being that these were, I am assuming active military, the UCMJ is way stricter. In Civilian life expect Civil suits which will stick.
Look at Hogan v. Gawker.
These people screwed the pooch. No way around it whether you view it as Jarhead Barracks Antics or outright Cyber Rape.
JMHO
Eurodriver
03-06-17, 17:30
As for this being the way Marines talk... Bullshit. Show me a Marine who talks about casually raping a woman. And if you can, service to our country or not, I will gladly throw down right then and there against him.
Unfortunately I know all too many guys who talk like this.
Marines, Accountants, Firefighters, Cops, EMS, Baristas, Pool Boys, Chipotle Employees, I even heard a Presidential candidate's recording from the past where he said grab them by the pussy - they let you do it. FF buddy told us he "put it in her hole" when she was passed out drunk. We explained that it wasn't ****ing cool to brag about raping a chick and the only reason we weren't more upset is because anyone who says "put it in her hole" isn't actually putting anything anywhere.
Still - guys can be ****ing scumbags. They come in all shapes and sizes.
I used to think the sexual assault stuff was all BS and Lord knows I've fretted about being falsely accused. But when a female Marine I respected told me that guys I worked with had physically assaulted girls she knew I realized it could be anyone.
So yes. There are Marines right now - some even with rockers and diamonds and oak leaves on their collars - not only talking like that but actually doing it.
So sharing pictures from a pubic website is now considered to be stalking? Or am I missing something here?
Your missing the fact that the pictures were reportedly stolen from a private account, circulated by coworkers without her consent, and the subject of comments suggesting that she be raped or sexually assaulted.
Unfortunately I know all too many guys who talk like this.
Marines, Accountants, Firefighters, Cops, EMS, Baristas, Pool Boys, Chipotle Employees, I even heard a Presidential candidate's recording from the past where he said grab them by the pussy - they let you do it. FF buddy told us he "put it in her hole" when she was passed out drunk. We explained that it wasn't ****ing cool to brag about raping a chick and the only reason we weren't more upset is because anyone who says "put it in her hole" isn't actually putting anything anywhere.
Still - guys can be ****ing scumbags. They come in all shapes and sizes.
I used to think the sexual assault stuff was all BS and Lord knows I've fretted about being falsely accused. But when a female Marine I respected told me that guys I worked with had physically assaulted girls she knew I realized it could be anyone.
So yes. There are Marines right now - some even with rockers and diamonds and oak leaves on their collars - not only talking like that but actually doing it.
This. There have been umpteen numbers of cops who have pulled over a girl (not a woman, a girl) and said "Suck my dick or go to jail". Then they get caught and the excuses fly.
And it besmirches the hard working honest officers who are counting dearly on public trust.
Being moderately cheeky and somewhat flirty is fine in familiar company but being an outright pig never did anyone any favors.
Had I a daughter and anyone did anything beyond her comfort level then I would not react positively to the situation at all
Your missing the fact that the pictures were reportedly stolen from a private account, circulated by coworkers without her consent, and the subject of comments suggesting that she be raped or sexually assaulted.
You make a solid point on the first part if that is what did, indeed, occur. That does in fact fall under cyberstalking.
Bold, however, is where I dock you a bit. There were umpteen twitter and facebook posts about doing in the POTUS or raping the FLOTUS and none were prosecutable.
A direct person to person threat is actionable. A vague "She should be _____" or "_________ so and so" isn't really actionable per se but does add to her privacy case that it did negatively affect her reputation, etc.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 17:54
Your missing the fact that the pictures were reportedly stolen from a private account, circulated by coworkers without her consent, and the subject of comments suggesting that she be raped or sexually assaulted.
Instagram isn't private. In reality, nothing posted online is private because security is just an illusion. Consent isn't necessary to share a photo already in public domain. There's a very real difference between what happened to her and actual cases of stalking and sexual assault.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 18:00
Well......Sensei may be stretching a bit here but....
Cyberstalking/Revenge Porn is a complicated matter. Not easy to prosecute but not impossible. It all boils down to opportunity and circumstantiality.
Example: Person B allows Person A to record a sexual encounter. Both are legal age. Person B goes on with life. Person A decides to share sexual encounter with Persons C-Z^100 without consulting Person B. No contract beyond oral (giggity) and nothing in writing. Sadly Person B is in a predicament because it seems like there is nothing she can do. There are a lot of unintended consequences of public humiliation and slander. But the way the law is revised, without legal consent recording a person in private alters the paradigm.
Technically it can be considered cyberstalking even if it doesnt seem like "normal" stalking.
This is why when people do legit porno, they fill out a lot of paperwork and waivers.
Being that these were, I am assuming active military, the UCMJ is way stricter. In Civilian life expect Civil suits which will stick.
Look at Hogan v. Gawker.
These people screwed the pooch. No way around it whether you view it as Jarhead Barracks Antics or outright Cyber Rape.
JMHO
I can see the argument with pictures that were taken without express consent, but I'm not seeing how these same protections can extend to a "victim" who posts the pictures online themselves.
Instagram isn't private. In reality, nothing posted online is private because security is just an illusion. Consent isn't necessary to share a photo already in public domain. There's a very real difference between what happened to her and actual cases of stalking and sexual assault.
I like you bro and am ultimately in your corner but....
https://www.cybercivilrights.org/revenge-porn-laws/
This gives all the statutes. "public domain" isn't always Public Domain
I can see the argument with pictures that were taken without express consent, but I'm not seeing how these same protections can extend to a "victim" who posts the pictures online themselves.
Here's where it gets tricky.
Can they prove she released the pictures?
Can she prove she did not?
This is why cases like these are a headache because it is a lot of he said/she said/they said.
Even if you had IP and Computer, if it was someone known personally with access to her PC, there is still an element of doubt that cannot be dismissed.
I see no angels on this case, but lines were crossed.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 18:08
I like you bro and am ultimately in your corner but....
https://www.cybercivilrights.org/revenge-porn-laws/
This gives all the statutes. "public domain" isn't always Public Domain
Well admittedly I'm not a lawyer so I won't get into specifics that I can't totally understand.
It just seems ridiculous to me that someone can post a picture online for the entire world to see, then turn around and claim victim status when the wrong people see it or mean things are said.
I'll use the example of Kally Wayne. The girl makes a sex tape with some dude, it gets put up on Pornhub, people find it and suddenly she's a victim. All the while posting provocative pictures to Instagram on a regular basis.
Well......Sensei may be stretching a bit here but....
Am I stretching it? Here is the applicable UCMJ statute:
Section 120a
(a) Any person subject to this section--
(1) who wrongfully engages in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear death or bodily harm, including sexual assault, to himself or herself or a member of his or her immediate family;
(2) who has knowledge, or should have knowledge, that the specific person will be placed in reasonable fear of death or bodily harm, including sexual assault, to himself or herself or a member of his or her immediate family; and
(3) whose acts induce reasonable fear in the specific person of death or bodily harm, including sexual assault, to himself or herself or to a member of his or her immediate family;
is guilty of stalking and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
The specific Marine in question alleges that her pictures were stolen, circulated by coworkers, and the subject of comments that she be raped or sexually assaulted. It is also alleged that some of the victims had their names, units, and addresses published, but I'm unsure if this particular victim was part of that unluckily cohort. Then, there is the reporter who broke the story, a Purple Heart recipient, who has been threatened and had his family threatened.
Well admittedly I'm not a lawyer so I won't get into specifics that I can't totally understand.
It just seems ridiculous to me that someone can post a picture online for the entire world to see, then turn around and claim victim status when the wrong people see it or mean things are said.
I'll use the example of Kally Wayne. The girl makes a sex tape with some dude, people find it and suddenly she's a victim. All the while posting provocative pictures to Instagram on a regular basis.
I see where you are coming from. As referenced in previous posting.
A lot of this stems from the whole graduated "yes means yes" spiel.
I am no lawyer either.
This is High School grade bullshit though where some girl sends a tit pic to her bae and bae puts it out for God and everyone then wants to cry foul. Esp. these teenyboppers who are technically violating child exploitation laws amongst themselves.
Again, I see a lot of irresponsibility on both sides.
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 18:19
Again, I see a lot of irresponsibility on both sides.
I totally agree with that. I didn't come here to argue about the morality of sharing nude pictures.
My point was that the group was much more than a porn stash and the hit piece article being referenced failed to recognize that.
Well admittedly I'm not a lawyer so I won't get into specifics that I can't totally understand.
It just seems ridiculous to me that someone can post a picture online for the entire world to see, then turn around and claim victim status when the wrong people see it or mean things are said.
I'll use the example of Kally Wayne. The girl makes a sex tape with some dude, it gets put up on Pornhub, people find it and suddenly she's a victim. All the while posting provocative pictures to Instagram on a regular basis.
If someone in the military posts comments that another person should be raped or assaulted, they are going to run into UCMJ issues. It doesn't matter if the person receiving the threats posted a picture.
Having said that, I'm not seeing where any of the alleged victims put anything in public. That allegation seems unique to certain members of this thread.
Sensei, re-read my post. Bold was where I had to dock you a bit.
If he said "I am going to rape/sexually abuse you" then yes. Actionable.
But saying "She should be raped. The Bitch." is a bit too vague to be an outright threat.
Ultimately, it is up to a JAG/DA and Jury to make that call.
Everything else is caseworthy but I wouldn't waste time on "She should bes", "I hope she gets", or "Somebody shoulds".
Dist. Expert 26
03-06-17, 18:23
If someone in the military posts comments that another person should be raped or assaulted, they are going to run into UCMJ issues. It doesn't matter if the person receiving the threats posted a picture.
Having said that, I'm not seeing where any of the alleged victims put anything in public. That allegation seems unique to certain members of this thread.
I personally saw issues arise from the sharing of Instagram pictures. A friend of mine has his command contacted as a result of one of these "victims".
Either way, I'm done arguing about the pictures. I'll only discuss my original point from here on out.
Your missing the fact that the pictures were reportedly stolen from a private account, circulated by coworkers without her consent, and the subject of comments suggesting that she be raped or sexually assaulted.
Yep, and even if such comments were made in a flippant manner or just as a tasteless comment, it is just one more really bad idea on the bad idea express. People need to understand that nothing they upload to the internet is very private and in every group there is going to be at least one person that takes things too far and gets everyone else in trouble.
Instagram isn't private. In reality, nothing posted online is private because security is just an illusion. Consent isn't necessary to share a photo already in public domain. There's a very real difference between what happened to her and actual cases of stalking and sexual assault.
"Public domain" is not the same as "posted in a public area".
Ask Stickman about people using his photos without his consent.
Sensei, re-read my post. Bold was where I had to dock you a bit.
If he said "I am going to rape/sexually abuse you" then yes. Actionable.
But saying "She should be raped. The Bitch." is a bit too vague to be an outright threat.
Ultimately, it is up to a JAG/DA and Jury to make that call.
Everything else is caseworthy but I wouldn't waste time on "She should bes", "I hope she gets", or "Somebody shoulds".
You may not, but any CO worth their salt is going to start handing down Article 15s of the Field Grade variety for a service member who pulls that shit. Notice that I said "run into UCMJ issues." Well, a Field Grade Article 15 is what most call running into issues. For a little perspective, I once had my BN CDR override my Company Grade Article 15 for a Field Grade after I heard one soldier joke about another's DSLs (that's Dick Sucking Lips). You simply cannot have one soldier or marine saying that about another and maintain unit discipline. While I'm no legal eagle, I guess you could say that I've seen my fair share of CID investigations for really stupid shit. So, here is how I see this stupid shit panning out and you are free to disagree:
1) A lot of the marines involved are screwed given the political climate in the Corps with integration of women. There is a virtual cornucopia of charges that will come from this ranging from stalking and PERSEC violations for the worse offenders, to Article 15s for obscenity for the ones who just posted comments. In the end, a few will do some time and a lot of careers will be trashed.
2) Although many around here are calling the comments "marine talk" or "locker room talk" I bet you will not see any of the charged marines trying to use that as a defense during the inevitable court marshals.
3) The organization in question, Marines United, it forever toast. It is toast due to a crisis of leadership and culture. Whatever good it did for marines in crisis will be overshadowed by this stupid shit.
4) This will blow up in the MSM once they are done raking Trump over the coals for his current Twitter spasm, and expect the usual suspects to link the behavior to the grab'em by the pussy quote.
Sorry homie. I'm a male who has never been cyberstalked at work. Why don't you send your question to Mrs. Woutek?
I don't understand your comment. Are you saying that her account was hacked?
No, I'm not saying that. She seems to be saying that.
I'm also saying that I'm not qualified to explain to you why a woman who had her co-workers circulating her private pictures and talking about how they would like to sexually assault her might not want to stick around the military. If you are confused by that, just send her a message and tell her that you don't understand.
FWIW Sensei, I'm speaking from a hard won, decade plus civilian LE perspective and having to deal with more than a few iPhone/Facebook/etc drama cases. (Which, incidentally, is why I prefer the hood/ghetto because this is up there with preppy problems)
If, however, NCOs/COs get involved and start handing out NJPs/Art 15s/whatever to all involved that are subordinate to them, it would not hurt my feelings one bit for cooking up stupid and unnecessary drama.
I am looking at what could go to court on and take to a DA/Judge. If COs/NCOs have more discretion non-judicially and it is within the scope of their authority then I wholeheartedly encourage them to skin some ass over this.
I do, however, agree that this casts the branch in a negative light and is up there with Tailhook.
If this is falling under military jurisdiction then they have much more stringent rigor and authority.
If Civilian, then they are going to need ducks in a row, but a case is definitely here and definitely prosecutable.
I academically agree with you, Sensei. But I don't know how far this is going to blow up in the MSM. I also have never heard of Marines United, but WWP did some slim shady stuff and they are still open for business.
I will say that while I am not easily offended; I refrain from any shenanigans that aren't PG-13. Anytime some dude wants to show off naked pics of some tinder whore or something patently immoral.....
I create distance and recuse myself from it. Don't care, don't want to be part of it, not my wife not my life.
But aside from M4C, I have zero social media footprint and am happier for it. Anybody who really wants to give me a shout has my email/number.
I have seen soooooo many people ruin their lives because of twitter, facebook, etc. Posting some stupid shit and it came back to them.
I will say that if for some stupid reason you want to take naked pictures of yourself or SO that you should get a straight up digital camera and keep it on a PC with zero contact to the internet.
I do, however, discourage such actions because use your brain camera for that.
For a person who is prior military, I can see why you would be teetotaling pissed over such tomfoolery especially if you were in the Officer Corps and had/have a high, yet very reasonable moral standard.
I'm merely being dispassionate and objective about it. I can and do agree with both you and DE26 on this if from a different vantage point.
These were all grown folks in professional positions of tryst and they are doing teenage BS and asses need scalding over it.
Again, no angels on this one. And victims in strictly in the legal sense.
I feel bad for the female involved but while she may not have legal culpability here; she certainly set herself up by keeping her stuff where it was accessible.
Regardless, I am not prepared to rule out the possibility that she didn't pull a Blue Dress here just to torpedo people.
Whatever JAG/Jury/etc decide, I think all involved showed a lack of maturity and discretion.
JMO
No, I'm not saying that. She seems to be saying that.
I'm also saying that I'm not qualified to explain to you why a woman who had her co-workers circulating her private pictures and talking about how they would like to sexually assault her might not want to stick around the military. If you are confused by that, just send her a message and tell her that you don't understand.
It's just that you keep talking about the comments as her being cyberstalked, but how was she stalked on a website she wasn't allowed access to? Isn't it a requirement of stalking (cyber or real) for the person to be made afraid? Was there any motive or intent to stalk or harass her online, when posted comments were witheld from her?
Also (and this may just be me), but you appear (again, to me) to be taking a moral position against my posts for which I've given given you no basis? You know I'm not contacting her, so your comment is either crass or needless. I don't care what your position on the commemts themselves is because I'm not defending them. I'm just trying to separate comments made by men to other men with no intention of the subject knowing, from actual threats to the woman. I also don't care what the UCMJ says because you and I both know the primary function of the UCMJ is protection of the service through enforcement. There are many subjects covered in the UCMJ that wouldn't be a crime anywhere else, so it's not a great arbiter of morals.
If I've read your posts wrong and all you're attempting to do is provide information from the military's perspective, then my apologies.
Who said she wasn't allowed access to the website or that the content was withheld from her? Your own article says that she was alerted to the pictures on the social media board and was alarmed by the comments that referenced her being sexually assaulted. This is a board with over 30,000 participants which apparently included members of her unit.
You mentioned and I quote, "so I guess I don't get how she could be so naïve about how heterosexual young Marines think?" Well, here is the reason for my moral position against your post: 1) This is not how heterosexual young Marines think. This is how retards think. Retards think that stealing someone's personal photos, circulating them on social media, and then joking about raping the person is acceptable. 2) For my entire career I've attended hours of mandatory Title IX training, each time wondering why I'm having to sit through this shit every year. Well, congratulations stud, you are the poster boy for why those of us who know how to control ourselves must sit though that shit. It is because someone is going to come along and wonder why victims of harassment and Internet stalking are so naive, all the while professing their abhorrence of rape, assault, and harassment. It's like Euro said, this happens all the time. So please stop asking me to explain how victims feel and go do some field work on your own. Out.
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-17, 01:05
Something I'd like to add.
MU was not just a Facebook page. There is still a network of local chapters where guys can meet up, make friends and if necessary help each other out. That aspect of the organization is still very much intact. Some of the chapters even allow female members whereas the main page did not (ever).
The mission is a just one, and that is the reason I'm so passionate about the subject. I have close friends that have needed to be talked down from doing something to hurt themselves. Oftentimes people reach their darkest moments when the rest of the world is sleeping. Without the network to help in a timely manner lives would be lost, and unfortunately will be.
It pains me to see the stupidity of a select few exploited by a hypocrite for nothing more than personal gain.
When people photograph their assholes and email them here and there, then my pity for them is small.
Anybody want to buy a picture of Eurodriver? $5 and sold as is. :jester:
My point was that the group was much more than a porn stash and the hit piece article being referenced failed to recognize that.
I agree; however, now it's going to be collateral damage. I hope that any good done by the site and members of the site is not wholly negated by this mess.
Regardless of the venue, the Marines in question stepped on their crank, and should pay the price.
Who said she wasn't allowed access to the website or that the content was withheld from her? Your own article says that she was alerted to the pictures on the social media board and was alarmed by the comments that referenced her being sexually assaulted. This is a board with over 30,000 participants which apparently included members of her unit.
You mentioned and I quote, "so I guess I don't get how she could be so naïve about how heterosexual young Marines think?" Well, here is the reason for my moral position against your post: 1) This is not how heterosexual young Marines think. This is how retards think. Retards think that stealing someone's personal photos, circulating them on social media, and then joking about raping the person is acceptable. 2) For my entire career I've attended hours of mandatory Title IX training, each time wondering why I'm having to sit through this shit every year. Well, congratulations stud, you are the poster boy for why those of us who know how to control ourselves must sit though that shit. It is because someone is going to come along and wonder why victims of harassment and Internet stalking are so naive, all the while professing their abhorrence of rape, assault, and harassment. It's like Euro said, this happens all the time. So please stop asking me to explain how victims feel and go do some field work on your own. Out.
Well slick, you can take your moral superiority and shove it where the sun don't shine, k? I NEVER defended the website, the pic posting or the comments. It was in the original article (which you must've not read) that the website was MALE ONLY. Is she a male? No. She never knew about the pics until the expose`. So she has ONE instance of some shithead posting her pics on a website she didn't have access to, which pics may or may not have been floating around on the internet for everyone to see, and subsequent comments. THAT, is not a solid basis for stalking. That is ALL I've said.
You need to back down off your holier than thou pedestal and reassess, because I ain't the enemy here, got it? :mad:
Well slick, you can take your moral superiority and shove it where the sun don't shine, k? I NEVER defended the website, the pic posting or the comments. It was in the original article (which you must've not read) that the website was MALE ONLY. Is she a male? No. She never knew about the pics until the expose`. So she has ONE instance of some shithead posting her pics on a website she didn't have access to, which pics may or may not have been floating around on the internet for everyone to see, and subsequent comments. THAT, is not a solid basis for stalking. That is ALL I've said.
You need to back down off your holier than thou pedestal and reassess, because I ain't the enemy here, got it? :mad:
Enemy? Nobody called you the enemy. The enemy is the Marines and veterans who published private photos and, in some instances, stalked their victims by following them on post while posting their pictures online (often along with names, rank, and duty station) so that their retarded battle buddies could play out their rape fantasies. So no, you are not the enemy.
You my friend are what I would call "part of the problem." That is because you try normalize the Marine's behavior as being just how heterosexual young Marines think, and suggest that the victim's naïveté is just so bewildering. Nice attempt at blaming the victim.
So, what you call moral superiority is a lot more like common sense and decency. As for my holier than thou pedestal, I'll stay up here - the air quality seems a lot better.
published private photos and, in some instances, stalked their victims by following them on post while posting their pictures online (often along with names, rank, and duty station) so that their retarded battle buddies could play out their rape fantasies.
How often did this happen on th page? Was it every post or was this a one time deal? (Not saying that one time should be sweep under the rug. One time is too many.) I have read that the one WM said her photos were posted and rape/assault comments were made about her. And also allegedly comments were made about the reporters family. But was that the extent of it?
Also, has anyone actually seen the posts and comments?
Enemy? Nobody called you the enemy. The enemy is the Marines and veterans who published private photos and, in some instances, stalked their victims by following them on post while posting their pictures online (often along with names, rank, and duty station) so that their retarded battle buddies could play out their rape fantasies. So no, you are not the enemy.
You my friend are what I would call "part of the problem." That is because you try normalize the Marine's behavior as being just how heterosexual young Marines think, and suggest that the victim's naïveté is just so bewildering. Nice attempt at blaming the victim.
So, what you call moral superiority is a lot more like common sense and decency. As for my holier than thou pedestal, I'll stay up here - the air quality seems a lot better.
Wrong Jack. I've got 32 years under my belt with ZERO claims of sexual harassment, impropriety, informal or formal complaints for myself, my Marines, my public and private career subordinates, you name it. No impropriety or complaints of ANY kind for that matter Not. One. Peep. Because I don't tolerate BS and I call people out when they try to do it. I haven't normalized any one's behavior, not even implied it. You inferred something you shouldn't have. You are wrong.
You have libeled me Sir. You feel free to run around with your snooty nose in the air and look down on others, but feel free to put me on ignore from now on because you owe me an apology and until then? You can kiss my a$$!
How often did this happen on th page? Was it every post or was this a one time deal? (Not saying that one time should be sweep under the rug. One time is too many.) I have read that the one WM said her photos were posted and rape/assault comments were made about her. And also allegedly comments were made about the reporters family. But was that the extent of it?
Also, has anyone actually seen the posts and comments?
Nobody knows the actual numbers as the page is down. There were reportedly thousands of pictures over terabytes of memory. A NYT article describes most of the pictures as revenge porn (previously consensual but private pictures), but they also mentioned some random Marines on post who were followed. SOFREP gave the example of one on Camp Lejeune here:
https://sofrep.com/76268/always-faithful-always-loyal-a-group-called-marines-united-are-hosting-a-sadistic-library-of-nude-female-marines/
In one instance, a woman corporal in uniform was followed at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina by a fellow Marine, who surreptitiously photographed her as she picked up her gear. Those photographs were posted online in the Facebook group “Marines United,” which has nearly 30,000 followers, drawing dozens of obscene comments.
One member of the Facebook group suggested the service member sneaking the photos should “take her out back and pound her out.” Others suggested more than vaginal sex:
“And butthole. And throat. And ears. Both of them. Video it though… for science.”
I have seen screen shots of some comments. They are about what the media describes.
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-17, 13:30
Stop trying to argue with Sensei here. In his mind he's right and no one will convince him otherwise, despite the fact that the "evidence" presented is extremely narrow and biased.
If anyone wants the other side of the story feel free to PM me.
Stop trying to argue with Sensei here. In his mind he's right and no one will convince him otherwise, despite the fact that the "evidence" presented is extremely narrow and biased.
If anyone wants the other side of the story feel free to PM me.
I'm not even going to issue my disclaimer on the conduct because some people only see what they want to see to make themselves feel better about themselves, but I'm assuming that the most often referred to example references some of the "worst of the worst" comments and that the WM "picking up her gear" isn't nude or anywhere remotely close to nude?
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-17, 16:11
I'm not even going to issue my disclaimer on the conduct because some people only see what they want to see to make themselves feel better about themselves, but I'm assuming that the most often referred to example references some of the "worst of the worst" comments and that the WM "picking up her gear" isn't nude or anywhere remotely close to nude?
Check your inbox.
Here is an interesting article on the situation from a Marine and leader.
https://www.google.com/amp/taskandpurpose.com/task-purposes-ceo-calls-marines-behind-photo-sharing-scandal/amp/
I found his comments regarding the Marines United organization an interesting perspective. Here is an excerpt:
A number of your defenders have said Marines United was established to help Marines and reduce the veteran suicide rate from 22 a day to zero. Do you know that suicide rates among female veterans have risen almost 40% since 2001? Or that female veterans under 30 die by suicide at six times the rate of civilian women? Or that 23% of female service members were sexually harassed in 2014 alone? Maybe you should rename your group Male Marines United, because you certainly aren’t doing anything to help those fellow Marines.
For all those claiming bias, I checked his stats and they unfortunately accurate...
I like this part:
You call yourselves a bunch of alpha males. In the Corps I left, alpha males didn’t need to go around calling themselves alpha males. Marines took responsibility for their actions, and men stood up for women, fought for right and freedom, and kept their honor clean.
Stop trying to argue with Sensei here. In his mind he's right and no one will convince him otherwise, despite the fact that the "evidence" presented is extremely narrow and biased.
If anyone wants the other side of the story feel free to PM me.
Sensei is just coming to terms with the fact that Trump won and is out looking for an argument again.
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-17, 17:15
Here is an interesting article on the situation from a Marine and leader.
https://www.google.com/amp/taskandpurpose.com/task-purposes-ceo-calls-marines-behind-photo-sharing-scandal/amp/
I found his comments regarding the Marines United organization an interesting perspective. Here is an excerpt:
It's no secret that the group was exclusively for men. Co-ed military Facebook groups are a constant source of drama and don't create an environment where men are comfortable reaching out for help.
There was at one point a sister group called Marines Reunited where females were allowed to join. When said females were in need of help, men and women from both pages pitched in.
The moral crusade here is getting tiresome.
Here is the Commandant's message released today.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/marine-commandant-nude-photo-scandal-2017-3
SeriousStudent
03-07-17, 19:58
Enough.
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