View Full Version : How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America
An interesting take on the boomer generation. Worth a listen I thought. An interview with the author of "A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America,"
Interview Highlights
On why Gibney calls the baby boomer generation sociopathic
"The reason why I called them sociopaths is because as a generation — as individuals they are like every group, a mixed bag. But as a generation, they display the classic clinical indicators of anti-social personality disorder, which used to be known in a less PC way as sociopathy. So for example improvidence is a key sociopathic indicator. And we can see that in the national data based on cohort savings levels and national savings levels, which have been in significant decline since the 1970s when the boomers first entered the workforce. We can also see it in the national debt, which on a gross basis was just under 35 percent of GDP when I was born and is now at 105 percent of GDP and projected to exceed it's World War II levels. That's about improvident as you you can get."
"It is the boomers as political actors who presided over the policies that allowed the national debt to become so large. So in the 1970s, there was actually a great deal of hand-wringing over this sort of catastrophic level of debt, 35 percent of GDP. And 40 years on, the problem is substantially worse and there's no discussion of the debt whatsoever. In fact there were no discussions of any long term problems, problems that were of greatest moment to the young, during the course of the election of 201. And the two candidates, both of whom were boomers, agreed on absolutely nothing, not even where to stand on the stage, save for one thing and that was an unshakable commitment to senior entitlements."
Cont:
http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2017/03/08/bruce-gibney-sociopaths-baby-boomers
I have to agree with most of that, especially as Obama, just barely a boomer, was the most improvident pol of all time. But the Boomers were just the first generation to radically expand the Progressive structures implemented and made popular by FDR and others. The cadre who indoctrinated the Boomers share a healthy share of the blame.
Averageman
03-08-17, 14:45
Baby Boomers or our Elected Officials?
I'm 55, I saw my Dad work his butt off, I saw his Dad work his butt off. The folks of my generation seemed less likely to want to delay gratification at many levels.
I can say that most of the people my age are pretty disconnected from anything political, perhaps gratifying all those needs does that?
Baby Boomers or the Hippies?
You know...people chump on generations but Gen X has accomplished a lot and the Millenials, while different, have been fighting your wars, policing your streets, and manning your public service. For every fagwad in any generation there are a bunch more just going with the flow and getting stuff done.
We focus too much on the loudmouths. Actually, there are a LOT of those "damned Millenials" who openly want a return to classic conservatism. Families, lives, and something to hang your hat on. They want what their parents never had. A good family life.
I may be a bit stuck in the 80s/90s but even I acknowledge that these kids today tend to be a bit more open and caring overall than we were.
If you were a teen in the early 90s, chances are you were a vicious, selfish bastard. A lot of pump and dump and seeya wouldn't want to be ya.
We were horrible, horrible people.
Just saying....
Hey, look on the bright side. They are finally starting to drop like flies...
Ok, ok, I kid, I kid.
Hey, look on the bright side. They are finally starting to drop like flies...
Ok, ok, I kid, I kid.
Bro, one day people are gonna talk some severe crap about us. And they won't be wholly wrong.
Bro, one day people are gonna talk some severe crap about us. And they won't be wholly wrong.
No kidding. I think that generations that get through life without big challenges tend to contribute to decay. Vietnam and 9/11 were challenging, but neither required the mobilization of the entire generation. After all, the Army and Marines went off to war after 9/11 while America went to the mall.
You have a point. But WWII was a unique situation. I don't see a conventional war like that happening again ever that doesn't go nuclear.
Plus that war had to be sold to a LOT of Americans with a LOT of propaganda.
Go watch Mission to Moscow. It was essentially an infomercial for the USSR. Plus a lot of people were leery of any more big wars with the Bonus Army fresh in memory.
I also think there is some credence to FDR leaving the Pacific Fleet to hang just to get the US into it.
Plus the internment of American citizens of Japanese and German lineage.
Rationing, black markets, organized crime. A President who essentially set himself up as a dictator for life. Socialist Security.
And a lot of folks who did, in fact, come back with chips on their shoulders who sucked it up until they either drove into a river or ate a gun.
Then the VFW "Vietnam didn't count" crew.
So.....let's not kiss too much ass on that one. We had some good eggs, liberated some people, and shot some A-Holes. Just like any other day.
Baby Boomers Defined: Baby boomers are the demographic group born during the post–World War II baby boom, approximately between the years 1946 and 1964. This includes people who are between 53 and 71 years old in 2017.
I'm just about smack dab in the middle, DOB 1954.
So for example improvidence is a key sociopathic indicator. And we can see that in the national data based on cohort savings levels and national savings levels, which have been in significant decline since the 1970s when the boomers first entered the workforce.
Just depends on who you roll with. I am a sample of one, and I don't think I'm a sociopath. It really isn't anyone on this site's business how much I've saved, lets just say that I have tithed and saved (bunches) for virtually my entire work career. Thanks to a man named Glen Booth, Semper Fi.
Another sign of sociopathy is lack of empathy or caring for the plight of their fellow man. Once again, a sample of one, but the folks I roll with work to make the World and our little part of it a better place. And again, it's no one's business how many volunteer hours I put in on various building projects or mentoring grade school kids.
So don't lump me into any bucket.
We can also see it in the national debt, which on a gross basis was just under 35 percent of GDP when I was born and is now at 105 percent of GDP and projected to exceed it's World War II levels.
I don't think the baby boomers had much to do with electing Reagan or GHWB, who grew the deficit. They may have elected Bill Clinton, who held fast and maybe even shrank it a little. Not sure what happened with GWB and BHO.
The thing you can legitimately blame the Boomers for is birthing the fvcking millennials.
My brother represents the first year of boomers. I represent the penultimate. He went to Nam-- I went to just about everything after that. I really can't say where either of us fit in the OP.
a hedge fund lawyer from the bay area and ny
OK that says about all I need to know about his view on things :)
a hedge fund lawyer from the bay area and ny
OK that says about all I need to know about his view on things :)
Thanks for pointing that out!
The original description of baby boomers were people born between 1945-1955, where did it gain another 10 years ?
You have a point. But WWII was a unique situation. I don't see a conventional war like that happening again ever that doesn't go nuclear.
WWII may seem unique to us, but it was not all that unique to the generations that came before those who fought in it. That is to say, the generation before The Greatest fought in WWI. The generation before that had that little West Point class reunion between the North and the South.
Point being that the Boomers are the first that never faced a do or die moment, AND had the fortune of seeing its only major threat (i.e. Soviet Union) go the way of the dinosaur. I'm a firm believer that individuals, societies, and generations need a little fear to "flourish." So, if you really want to Make America Great Again, then genetically engineer coyotes to be the size of minivans...
http://journals.lww.com/em-news/Fulltext/2006/02000/If_Coyotes_Were_as_Big_as_Minivans.8.aspx
Really a great read from a colleague of mine.
Interesting point. But I actually tracked down some of Smedley Butler's writings under advice of a friend of mine and.....well...
I ain't got no time for Carrot and Stick rule.
And I think we have plenty of fear as-is.
Which ties in to the Millenial hate. I am too old to be a Millenial but as they are maturing, they are actually making some good progress.
For every guy wanting a pronoun and wearing skinny jeans; there's a guy of same age right now with wings and a tab. Possibly a CIB to boot.
The Millenials came out in 2016. The Millenials are exposing the BS and the Millenials are questioning authority more.
What's more The Millenials are volunteering.
The Greatest Generation had two choices.....conscription or jail.
I won't say the Millenials are smarter but they are more curious and want answers to questions my Generation (Gen X) didn't care about.
We may have been more vicious and less PC, but we were also buttheads. Millenials are open to working smarter and, again, see what we missed out on. They just need a bit of toughening up, but I disagree with the "need" for a looming threat. Red Dawn was a fantasy, Day After was a bit more accurate.
It reminds me of that old saw "Blame the last guy".
There are things the Millenials grew up with that made me a bit envious. Openness, more tech savvy, not having to pick a side, and never fully knowing dread of a nuclear war.
But...they did lose out on ruggedness and individuality.
Once I saw young 22 y/os doing what I did at their age, but being smarter about it; I realized it was time to stop picking on them.
I firmly believe we need self motivation over fear (real or manufactured).
Which is why the middle aged farts pushing the "Russia out to get you" anti Trump spiel are having people shrugging and wondering what they been smoking.
Every Generation is going to have dumbass college kids causing trouble and latching on to stupid fads to get dope or nookie.
Nothing new under the sun.
Interesting point. But I actually tracked down some of Smedley Butler's writings under advice of a friend of mine and.....well...
I ain't got no time for Carrot and Stick rule.
And I think we have plenty of fear as-is.
Which ties in to the Millenial hate. I am too old to be a Millenial but as they are maturing, they are actually making some good progress.
For every guy wanting a pronoun and wearing skinny jeans; there's a guy of same age right now with wings and a tab. Possibly a CIB to boot.
The Millenials came out in 2016. The Millenials are exposing the BS and the Millenials are questioning authority more.
What's more The Millenials are volunteering.
The Greatest Generation had two choices.....conscription or jail.
I won't say the Millenials are smarter but they are more curious and want answers to questions my Generation (Gen X) didn't care about.
We may have been more vicious and less PC, but we were also buttheads. Millenials are open to working smarter and, again, see what we missed out on. They just need a bit of toughening up, but I disagree with the "need" for a looming threat. Red Dawn was a fantasy, Day After was a bit more accurate.
It reminds me of that old saw "Blame the last guy".
There are things the Millenials grew up with that made me a bit envious. Openness, more tech savvy, not having to pick a side, and never fully knowing dread of a nuclear war.
But...they did lose out on ruggedness and individuality.
Once I saw young 22 y/os doing what I did at their age, but being smarter about it; I realized it was time to stop picking on them.
I firmly believe we need self motivation over fear (real or manufactured).
Which is why the middle aged farts pushing the "Russia out to get you" anti Trump spiel are having people shrugging and wondering what they been smoking.
Every Generation is going to have dumbass college kids causing trouble and latching on to stupid fads to get dope or nookie.
Nothing new under the sun.
Do me favor and read that article from my last post. It is HILARIOUS and as progun as it gets coming from medicine.
The original description of baby boomers were people born between 1945-1955, where did it gain another 10 years ?
That was what came up when I googled the ages.
Do me favor and read that article from my last post. It is HILARIOUS and as progun as it gets coming from medicine.
I will. I don't doubt it.
"It is the boomers as political actors who presided over the policies that allowed the national debt to become so large.
Nonsense.
It was the Greatest Generation and there parents that created these mathematically unstable social entitlement programs. They then voted and ensured they would not be changed and forced the baby-boomers to transfer their wealth to themselves, and left the rest of the country bankrupt.
So in the 1970s,
Many baby boomers could not vote until the late 70s, how is it their fault?
Baby Boomers Defined: Baby boomers are the demographic group born during the post–World War II baby boom, approximately between the years 1946 and 1964. This includes people who are between 53 and 71 years old in 2017.
I'm just about smack dab in the middle, DOB 1954.
So for example improvidence is a key sociopathic indicator. And we can see that in the national data based on cohort savings levels and national savings levels, which have been in significant decline since the 1970s when the boomers first entered the workforce.
Just depends on who you roll with. I am a sample of one, and I don't think I'm a sociopath. It really isn't anyone on this site's business how much I've saved, lets just say that I have tithed and saved (bunches) for virtually my entire work career. Thanks to a man named Glen Booth, Semper Fi.
Another sign of sociopathy is lack of empathy or caring for the plight of their fellow man. Once again, a sample of one, but the folks I roll with work to make the World and our little part of it a better place. And again, it's no one's business how many volunteer hours I put in on various building projects or mentoring grade school kids.
So don't lump me into any bucket.
We can also see it in the national debt, which on a gross basis was just under 35 percent of GDP when I was born and is now at 105 percent of GDP and projected to exceed it's World War II levels.
I don't think the baby boomers had much to do with electing Reagan or GHWB, who grew the deficit. They may have elected Bill Clinton, who held fast and maybe even shrank it a little. Not sure what happened with GWB and BHO.
The thing you can legitimately blame the Boomers for is birthing the fvcking millennials.
You do realize gramps that you have managed to set up the generation graduating today with the worst economic situation in American history. Today's dollar has the buying power that 16 cents had in 1970. The housing market collapsed due to reckless actions taken by your generation that subsequently crashed the job market (hint the millennial didn't have political or financial power in '08).
The destruction of the job market by your generation's reckless gambling led to many of them staying in school longer. This coupled with more individuals going to college due to your generation stating that it was the only way to do anything of value with their lives led to a collapse in the trades, and rapid inflation in the price of education. Additionally your refusal to leave the job market has further hamstrung those attempting to enter the job market because you aren't retiring.
Further you voted to drain the social security fund during the Clinton Administration that combined with other policies has led to over a hundred trillion dollar in unfunded mandates that our generation will have to pay for while receiving absolutely no benefit from the majority of said policies. The fact that they have seen you bleed this country dry with tax breaks for the wealthy while through inflation devalued their paychecks perfectly explains why many of them want to see college debt relief bought at your generation's expense. Fair play "fvcking baby boomer".
Do not generalize the millennialis, we have fought in two wars that look like they will be longer than any previous war in American history. My generation has grown up under the fear of terrorism and through an all volunteer force has chosen to protect our nation. During WWII 66% of soldiers were drafted, during Vietnam 25% were drafted. As I recall your generation in your youth spat upon those men who served in Vietnam.
If you don't want to accept responsibility for the sins of your generation that is fine. However, if you are unwilling to accept your generation's many failings, then don't you dare generalize about mine.
EDIT: Just an edit to add that I am one of those who volunteered.
Say what y'all want, but BH321 has you old fogeys in a box here. :D
Further you voted to drain the social security fund during the Clinton Administration that combined with other policies has led to over a hundred trillion dollar in unfunded mandates that our generation will have to pay for while receiving absolutely no benefit from the majority of said policies. The fact that they have seen you bleed this country dry with tax breaks for the wealthy while through inflation devalued their paychecks perfectly explains why many of them want to see college debt relief bought at your generation's expense. Fair play "fvcking baby boomer".
EDIT: Just an edit to add that I am one of those who volunteered.
What just a godamn minute. Don't lump me in with those old fsrts. ;)
All kidding aside, that was a pretty persuasive post. One thing I'd like point out, we are all generalizing a bit when talking about generations. However, our society has grown apart over the past 30 years so that we are much more dichotomous. The difference between the haves and have nots, producers and recipients, educated and illeterate, etc. has never been greater. Thus, it becomes increasingly easy to drastically mischaracterize one group within this millennial generation. Thus, the best of the millennial generation can stand toe-to-toe with anything our country has seen. However, the worst of the millennials look more like something that my dog dropped than anything I'd associate with Merica.
You do realize gramps that you have managed to set up the generation graduating today with the worst economic situation in American history. Today's dollar has the buying power that 16 cents had in 1970. The housing market collapsed due to reckless actions taken by your generation that subsequently crashed the job market (hint the millennial didn't have political or financial power in '08).
First of all I'm not your Gramps. My loins aren't capable of siring the parent of such a whiny, self-absorbed human being. Since you are saying 'you' I'll respond that way. Have you ever considered that I've lived through all the shit you are crying about? My retirement savings shrunk over 40% - a dip right at 335,000 during that fiasco. I had planned on retiring 2010, but had to put that on hold. I'd been saving/investing 1/2 of every pay raise I'd got since 1979, in addition to what work mandated I put in. There was no guarantee that the market would bounce back, ever. What do you think that felt like? I sure the **** didn't go blaming random strangers for it. Do you think I like paying 1.69 for a soda that was 10 cents when I was a teenager?
Additionally your refusal to leave the job market has further hamstrung those attempting to enter the job market because you aren't retiring. Hey buddy, lookie what I did for you, I retired as soon as I met my monetary goal - you know the one that I scrimped and sacrificed 30+ years for.
Further you voted to drain the social security fund during the Clinton Administration that combined with other policies has led to over a hundred trillion dollar in unfunded mandates that our generation will have to pay for while receiving absolutely no benefit from the majority of said policies. The fact that they have seen you bleed this country dry with tax breaks for the wealthy while through inflation devalued their paychecks perfectly explains why many of them want to see college debt relief bought at your generation's expense. Fair play "fvcking baby boomer".
Well, since I didn't vote for Clinton, I guess it isn't MY fault. Social security is allegedly going insolvent before I plan on checking out, so I guess we are all in it together. For the most part, those tax breaks for the wealthy didn't filter down to me. Hey good deal on the college debt relief, I've got two daughters who I had planned to put through college on my dime, maybe that will help. BTW I went through college while working a full time job and raising a family. It took me eight years. Two of those years, I commuted 104 miles one way, the last three years the commute shortened to 50 miles one way - wasn't no on line courses. Both me and my family sacrificed to get that done.
Do not generalize the millennialis, we have fought in two wars that look like they will be longer than any previous war in American history. My generation has grown up under the fear of terrorism and through an all volunteer force has chosen to protect our nation. During WWII 66% of soldiers were drafted, during Vietnam 25% were drafted. As I recall your generation in your youth spat upon those men who served in Vietnam.
Maybe you shouldn't generalize me. I grew up under the fear of a nuclear attack(LOL we did have drills in school). I am currently living under the fear of terrorism, same as you, although you seem a little more rattled by it than I am. I also have sons, daughters and grandkids who are living in the same world. You ain't alone.
Fun fact: the US Government curtailed enlistments during WWII, the last two years of the war there were no enlistments. Congratulations on being a member of the volunteer armed forces. Nobody was spitting on you when you joined, huh? I left for Marine Boot Camp right after high school graduation, less than two weeks after my 18th birthday. I was born in 1954, do the math. Trust me, it wasn't near as popular thing to do as it was in 2001.
If you don't want to accept responsibility for the sins of your generation that is fine. However, if you are unwilling to accept your generation's many failings, then don't you dare generalize about mine.
EDIT: Just an edit to add that I am one of those who volunteered.
All that venom for 'The thing you can legitimately blame the Boomers for is birthing the fvcking millennials?' A throw away line? I really don't see anyplace in my post that I blamed your generation for anything. Kind of thin skinned. So toddles, if it was a requirement, I know damned well I've earned the air I breathe. I owe you, or your generation nothing. Jeeez.
Generational finger-pointing. Hilarious.
Generational finger-pointing. Hilarious.
#truth
That whole article should be taken with a grain of salt.
horseman234
03-09-17, 08:07
While my generation of baby boomers certainly deserves a large portion of the blame, it is really cross generational. The seeds of our current mess were planted in the post depression acts of Roosevelt, which included social security and the tax benefits of employer paid health insurance which relieved many individuals from concern about health care costs. Then in the 1960's Johnson started the great society including Medicare and expanded social security benefits. While most of us were still unable to vote at that time, too many of us believed the politicians lies about these ponzi schemes, and began to rely on government as our retirement plan. Subsequent generations simply followed along, and our politician have not shown the fortitude to fix any of these problems, because, in most cases, getting re-elected is their primary concern. Once a government program is started, it is hell to roll back, as with our current situation with Obamacare.
Many of us in all generations have forgotten the ideals of personal responsibility, and rely on government to save us from our poor decisions in life. While there should be a very basic safety net for those who can't provide for themselves, we make it way to comfortable for many who are just unwilling to do what is necessary to not become a ward of the state.
Eurodriver
03-09-17, 08:20
7.62NATO makes a thread decrying the fall of American civilization as the fault of millennials and the thread goes tits up with approval.
Someone blames the baby boomers and it's "well we can't blame one generation for this..."
Can we poll the ages of people in this thread? You know, for science?
How about we stop trying to place blame elsewhere pointing fingers and instead shoulder the burden equally and figure out how to get out of the ginormous hole we are in as a United people?
Novel idea right?
This thread is a microcosm of what is wrong in our country- point the finger assign blame elsewhere and do NOTHING to solve the problem.
We must stop allowing ourselves to be controlled into fighting amongst ourselves. We are weak for it. Wake up and work together. You have more in common than not and we are stronger when united.
We could solve our problems and truly make America as great as it should be again if we wanted to...
7.62NATO makes a thread decrying the fall of American civilization as the fault of millennials and the thread goes tits up with approval.
'7.62's dead Euro. If you fly the forums long enough things like that happen. There will be others. You have to let it go.'
IMO, the canon of generations.
http://www.lifecourse.com/about/method/timelines/generations.html
http://www.lifecourse.com/about/method/generational-archetypes.html
http://www.lifecourse.com/about/method/timelines/turnings.html
http://www.lifecourse.com/about/method/where-we-are-today.html
He'll be back. They always come back. It's like Michael Myers, Freddy Krueger, or Jason Voorhees. You shoot'em 8 times and the body can't be found...
thebarracuda
03-09-17, 10:57
Generations - shmenerations. Whatever... A large and increasing number of people have learned they can vote themselves a lifestyle courtesy of the American taxpayer. The more they lounge and reproduce, the better the "benefits". Regardless of generation, some people are without pride, and some politicians prey on that. Where does that leave us? Well... Politics being what it is, trust me, it'll be f***ed....
7.62NATO makes a thread decrying the fall of American civilization as the fault of millennials and the thread goes tits up with approval.
Someone blames the baby boomers and it's "well we can't blame one generation for this..."
Can we poll the ages of people in this thread? You know, for science?
A lot of this thread is a bunch of folks who get that "Older I get, the better I was" mentality.
They think unless you wrestle a bear or kill a minivan sized coyote (why a coyote? Why not Tiger) and shave with a chainsaw then you are a wuss.
I will openly bash MY Generation. Gen X was pretty much THE definition of "whatever".
We didn't care about anything but screwing, nintendo, gangster rap, irresponsible teen sex, and all sorts of debauchery.
I dare you to go watch that movie "Kids" (1995). It was JUST like that to the point of being a documentary. Young people today are nowhere near that bad.
Those who survived turned out okay, those who didn't crashed and burned.
People chump on the Boomers (not wholly unjustified) but their parents were sick of war and wanted their kids to have a good life. Yes, it may have spoiled them a bit, but a LOT of guys came back from WWII with ice on their shoulders.
They just didn't let it out until Saving Private Ryan. It wasn't this all American, "Kill a kraut, Slap a Jap" George Patton BS.
That's propaganda. And ironically the children and grandchildren took it seriously and thought it was a big wow. Everybody back then thought it was stupid and full of bullshit. People are on the black market and running game on ration cards while the basic GI is sitting in German mud going "Howdafuk did I go from a zoot suit and a girl with big sweater puppies to being out here, fighting these assholes.......in the rain?"
Unless they shipped your ass off to Asia where malaria would eat you up against a fanatical foe.
They went, they did not enjoy it, and they said "No...hell no. MY kid is NOT going through that."
I think being a generation snob is lame.
The WWII guys wanted the boomers to not have to fight in some big war. The boomers wanted their kids to be open minded. Gen Xers just were antisocial until they realized life does have a point and wanted the Millenials to have the home life they shunned and the Millenials want more unironic human progress if a bit naively at times. But they are quicker to learn. They want to, otherwise there would be no wiki anything.
We're all interconnected and we all rely on each other some kind of way.
If you see something a younger bunch is doing.....don't be an ass.....
Be a Mentor.
As for what whomever did 30-40 years ago....well...it's over now. Try to fix it. If you are too old to fix it....
Be a Mentor.
A bunch of grouchy old men could have shunned me for my youth when I was 22, but they didn't. They took me in and taught me their way.
funny how some generations cant be responsible and have to piss whine and moan the previous ones were the problem and not look in the mirror take responsibility and do something about it
those whining about it are only to blame their parents not the others !!! so go piss on your parents because they are the ones that let you get away with being a whiny little baby who cant stand up without help and having things handed to them and did not learn life is tough !!!
funny how instead of looking at the positive they only see the negative and make excuses for their own failings and then whine about it :)
just another way to look at things and realize life is tough and yet in USA we have it better than any one else in the world
IMHO its not the generations that did it ! the political party of the Democrats are what did things and that has effected everyone
Additionally your refusal to leave the job market has further hamstrung those attempting to enter the job market because you aren't retiring.
ROFL. Criticizing a strong work ethic. If we retired you would then complain we were draining SS.
Further you voted to drain the social security fund during the Clinton Administration
Social Security never had a fund. So it could not be drained. It has always been pay as you go.
The simple fact is the Greatest Generation and their parents created a bunch of entitlement Ponzi schemes, and no generation since has fixed them. Your generation is now of voting age, so now you OWN it too. Enjoy it!
Averageman
03-09-17, 13:34
When you say "Wont leave the job market", you have to ask yourself why?
I have a friend that retired from the Military, worked overseas for a major Defense Company and retired after 17 years working for the Company. He was sitting at home when they called him and asked him to come back and offered him quite a bit more money.
Why call him up and ask him to please come back and oh, here's a bunch more money?
Not all jobs are "Tech Jobs" some of these job skills become more and more valuable because, although the technology hasn't advanced much, it isn't easy to find a guy who has 35 years of experience doing it with a 100% safety/success rate.
When it comes down to someone doing something like repairing, replacing or doing diagnostics on a Howitzer or Tank recoil system, you want they guy who's going to get you the "Boom" rather than the Ka-Boom".
Singlestack Wonder
03-09-17, 13:34
ROFL. Criticizing a strong work ethic.
Social Security never had a fund. So it could not be drained. It has always been pay as you go.
The simple fact is the Greatest Generation and their parents created a bunch of entitlement Ponzi schemes, and no generation since has fixed them. Your generation is now of voting age, so now you OWN it too. Enjoy it!
Actually there was a Social Security fund at one time. The only withdrawals were used for paying social security benefits. Not sure when (either 60's or 70's) but the brilliant politicians decided to dump the Social Security funds into the General Fund and allow it to be used for anything. Had the Social Security funds been maintained in a sealed account (only used for benefits) and invested in a very conservative method, it would be self sustaining. Besides the fund being robbed by the general fund abuse, many folks are receiving benefits they shouldn't be. Thanks to the libtards for that.
Of course U.S. Congressmen, Senators, etc., have guaranteed golden retirements plans and do not depend on Social Security. If they did you can bet the system would be fixed. Of course if I could get back the $$$'s I've donated to Social Security, I'd get out of the system now.....
Actually there was a Social Security fund at one time. The only withdrawals were used for paying social security benefits. Not sure when (either 60's or 70's) but the brilliant politicians decided to dump the Social Security funds into the General Fund and allow it to be used for anything.
No.
What you are referring to is SS payments were kept off the balance sheet. But since it was running a surplus, politicians put it on the balance sheet to make deficits look smaller. But it was never in an AlGore "lockbox".
Singlestack Wonder
03-09-17, 14:18
No.
What you are referring to is SS payments were kept off the balance sheet. But since it was running a surplus, politicians put it on the balance sheet to make deficits look smaller. But it was never in an AlGore "lockbox".
From SSI Site:
"Consequently, over time the Social Security Trust Funds have included a mix of marketable and non-marketable Treasury securities. Over the years, the proportion has shifted heavily in favor of special obligation bonds as the main asset held by the Social Security Trust Funds. Prior to 1960, the Treasury's policy was to invest primarily in marketable securities, although this policy was not always followed. Since 1960, the policy has been to invest principally in special obligation bonds, unless the Managing Trustee of the funds (i.e., the Secretary of the Treasury) determines that investment in marketable securities would be "in the public interest." In fact, since 1980 no marketable securities have been added to the Trust Funds. (For a more detailed explanation see the Office of the Actuary's Actuarial Note #142.)
Since the assets in the Social Security trust funds consists of Treasury securities, this means that the taxes collected under the Social Security payroll tax are in effect being lent to the federal government to be expended for whatever present purposes the government requires. In this indirect sense, one could say that the Social Security trust funds are being spent for non-Social Security purposes. However, all this really means is that the trust funds hold their assets in the form of Treasury securities."
Since the assets in the Social Security trust funds consists of Treasury securities, this means that the taxes collected under the Social Security payroll tax are in effect being lent to the federal government to be expended for whatever present purposes the government requires. In this indirect sense, one could say that the Social Security trust funds are being spent for non-Social Security purposes. However, all this really means is that the trust funds hold their assets in the form of Treasury securities."
Correct, it is all part of Treasury fungible funds.
They think unless you wrestle a bear or kill a minivan sized coyote (why a coyote? Why not Tiger) and shave with a chainsaw then you are a wuss.
Why a coyote? Dude, when was the last time you saw a tiger wandering around urban America? If we're going to evolve through natural selection, at least choose a oversized predator that is native (and quite ubiquitous I might add) to the US. ;)
I take it you read the article. Here is another from the same author that is just as good as the first: http://edwinleap.com/missionary-to-emergistan/
The simple fact is the Greatest Generation and their parents created a bunch of entitlement Ponzi schemes, and no generation since has fixed them. Your generation is now of voting age, so now you OWN it too. Enjoy it!
Pretty much. Each generation has some who did and some who didn't. Sure in the 60s the counter culture youth movement was mostly reprehensible and disturbingly large, but not everyone was part of it just like not everyone feel victim to the disco mentality of the 70s.
But probably no generation was more disturbing than those in the 1930s who embraced socialism and eugenics to the point that an American citizen could be forcibly sterlizied if he was found indigent by the courts. We violated so many different civil rights in the 1930s it would make most people's head spin if they actually taught this crap in school. That coupled with events like the attack on the Bonus march where unarmed WWI veterans and their families were attacked by members of the US military and I have to wonder who is really the worst generation.
Singlestack Wonder
03-09-17, 15:38
Correct, it is all part of Treasury fungible funds.
Only since 1960...
Only since 1960...
Before or after, there has never been a Trust Fund setup by a third party fiduciary to hold SS money. It was always been part of Treasury.
Before or after, there has never been a Trust Fund setup by a third party fiduciary to hold SS money. It was always been part of Treasury.
Exactly. Anyone who thinks that SS ever was a trust has no concept of trust law. It is also not a social insurance. It is nothing more than a payroll tax on one end and a welfare program on the other. Like all welfare, the benefits are always subject to the whim of elected officials.
BTW, the EXACT same thing can be said about Medicare.
Why a coyote? Dude, when was the last time you saw a tiger wandering around urban America? If we're going to evolve through natural selection, at least choose a oversized predator that is native (and quite ubiquitous I might add) to the US. ;)
I take it you read the article. Here is another from the same author that is just as good as the first: http://edwinleap.com/missionary-to-emergistan/
I actually did enjoy the article and when I get a chance, I shall read this one.
Actually, maybe we should look into randomly dumping tigers off into the US. It'll certainly toughen people up AND help with overpopulation :D
I actually did enjoy the article and when I get a chance, I shall read this one.
Good, I'm glad. Edwin Leap is a fellow ER doc who used to work "down the road" from me when I was in Charlotte, NC. I've only met him a couple of times at our national conference that occurs every Fall. However, his articles are immensely popular in my field and a little controversial. One article described why shooting and gun accumulation is so prolific among ER docs - it made a bunch of heads explode...you probably felt the pop.
During the Cold War boomers grew up under the threat of nuclear annihilation. All communities had an active civil defense stocked with supplies and Geiger counters. The government pushed people to consider building bomb shelters. Duck and cover drills and tips for survival were part of the school curriculum. During Kennedy's standoff with the Russians in Cuba everybody's asshole was tight as a drum--including mine. So, it wasn't all pie and punch.
Changes in society after WW2 were examples of cultural evolution which was occurring more rapidly than ever before. If younger people were to travel back to those years, they would notice that people of color didn't have access to every place--even in NYC. They would wonder why a cop slapped the dog shit out of them when they gave a screw you type response. In the Deep South, they would ask why some of the Finest Generation were dynamiting churches and beating and sometimes killing those who supported the Civil Rights movement
Boomers make up a generation of different ages spanning several years and come from all strata of society. Drawing accurate conclusions about the group may not be an easy task.
One article described why shooting and gun accumulation is so prolific among ER docs - it made a bunch of heads explode...you probably felt the pop.
Ha. I remember that one.
Actually, maybe we should look into randomly dumping tigers off into the US. It'll certainly toughen people up AND help with overpopulation :D
One would think the randomly escaping cobra would do it, but no. Yes! Release the Kraken--er, tigers!!
Hey, look on the bright side. They are finally starting to drop like flies...
Ok, ok, I kid, I kid.
This is true, and big deal. Many of our health care and budget problems will go away after a majority of the Boomers die. It will also be the largest wealth transfer in history, it will be interesting to see the results.
This is true, and big deal. Many of our health care and budget problems will go away after a majority of the Boomers die. It will also be the largest wealth transfer in history, it will be interesting to see the results.
Hey, thanks!
It will also be the largest wealth transfer in history, it will be interesting to see the results.
Easy, the gov grabs (taxes) a bunch of money that had already been taxed way more than it should!
Baby Boomers or the Hippies?
You know...people chump on generations but Gen X has accomplished a lot and the Millenials, while different, have been fighting your wars, policing your streets, and manning your public service. For every fagwad in any generation there are a bunch more just going with the flow and getting stuff done.
We focus too much on the loudmouths. Actually, there are a LOT of those "damned Millenials" who openly want a return to classic conservatism. Families, lives, and something to hang your hat on. They want what their parents never had. A good family life.
I may be a bit stuck in the 80s/90s but even I acknowledge that these kids today tend to be a bit more open and caring overall than we were.
If you were a teen in the early 90s, chances are you were a vicious, selfish bastard. A lot of pump and dump and seeya wouldn't want to be ya.
We were horrible, horrible people.
Just saying....
Firefly, I find myself stopping at your posts regularly.
Whether it be for the comedic value, or opine, or rhetoric.
But, thank you.
As a 90s millennial, I can appreciate your statement on a fundamental level.
Particularly: "Actually, there are a LOT of those "damned Millenials" who openly want a return to classic conservatism. Families, lives, and something to hang your hat on. They want what their parents never had. A good family life."
When you grow up in a town where the GDP used to be in the Millions and it drops to below poverty, when the steel left so did the money, I got to see what my parents parents had. A lot. They worked hard, built their lives up by working hard with the railroad or steel plants, or taconite shipping. It was all there was for good money: Blue Collar.
When this bowl I live in turned into a tourist trap, we were doomed.
Turned into a welfare outlet, get out-of-staters for our easy welfare and high payouts. Our town is riddled with so much H to this day, it's ridiculous.
My only saving grace was my ex-mil father. Gen-Xer. I got to see what the struggle was like, single father, baby-momma he had 3 kids and 14 years with who took the house he worked two jobs to pay for; whose sole purpose was to remortgage and meth-binge her wedding with her new lover out in vegas with.
Watching your family home, family, siblings, father, and self get torn up like that; it creates a want for some effin normalcy, and a fire to fight to keep it, like no other.
I grew up never believing in marriage, that the idea of normal family life would be something of the past and out of reach of nowadays generations.
I was wrong. I got out of the town, I live out in the sticks. Get my freedoms, and stay active politically as much as I can to keep em. I am now happily married, to another moderately conservative millennial. We know our family will come sooner than later, and ultimately, your statement is all I can hope for. Families, lives, and something to hang my hat on. I want what my parents didn't have, but did try to give us: A good family life.
/Rant over. I'm a typical millennial, getting #triggered by your post. But in a good way; Haha!
ETA:
Oh, and I wanted to include a big thanks to Mr. Brink for posting another great article for review and conversation.
This is true, and big deal. Many of our health care and budget problems will go away after a majority of the Boomers die. It will also be the largest wealth transfer in history, it will be interesting to see the results.
Sorry my friend, but the numbers that I'm seeing do not suggest that. Assuming no change to the average life expectancy (~80) or Medicare benefit structure, we are in the red by about $100T dollars for Medicare alone when we account for everyone living today. Social Security is in a similar albeit less severe hole. So, our options are as follows:
1) Means test Medicare and SS so that only those below a certain net worth are eligible. While this may seem attractive to some, keep in mind that the net worth would need to be so low that roughly 35% of Americans would be eligible. That means that most on this forum would be "too rich" to receive the current full benefit.
2) Raise the eligibility age. Assuming current benefits are maintained, we would need to raise that age to ABOVE the current average life expectancy. That means we cover our own costs until roughly age 82.
3) Cut benefits. This would mean rationing care.
4) Cut payments. This also means rationing care because hospitals and providers respond by cutting service (this happened 5 years ago when the ACA sucked $700B over 10 years from Medicare).
5) Raise taxes. The CBO estimates we would all need to pay 70% more income tax to cover the shortfall, but that assumes that the GDP does not change.
6) Try a mixture of 1-5
7) Do nothing, continue to borrow or print money, and watch the train run of the cliff. As horrific as this may sound (think Greece in 2013 but with a lot more guns and urban minorities), this is actually what our current crop of elected geniuses has told us they plan to do. Well, to be fair, they plan to "grow the economy" to fund this $100T shortfall. Now, our GDP is somewhere around $18T with around 2% annual growth (not accounting for inflation), our budget is about $4T (17% is Medicare), and our current spending is around $4.4T leaving us a deficit just North of $400B each year. Moreover, annual healthcare costs are currently rising 1% faster than GDP. So, I leave it to someone else to calculate the sustained GDP necessary to close the gap. I bet it's close to 8 or 9%. Whatever it is - good luck.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 12:18
Of course a freeze on all doctors and other healthcare worker's compensation, malpractice insurance costs, and healthcare products cost for a period of 5 or more years would allow for a more logical approach to healthcare management. Right now, every time someone mentions a new insurance item or regulation, prices skyrocket. Healthcare providers and institutions are just as guilty as the pharmaceutical company that raised prices 1000% on a critical drug. They just do it more incrementally rather than all at once.
Of course a freeze on all doctors and other healthcare worker's compensation, malpractice insurance costs, and healthcare products cost for a period of 5 or more years would allow for a more logical approach to healthcare management. Right now, every time someone mentions a new insurance item or regulation, prices skyrocket. Healthcare providers and institutions are just as guilty as the pharmaceutical company that raised prices 1000% on a critical drug. They just do it more incrementally rather than all at once.
A "freeze on all doctors and other healthcare workers' compensation." The industry would implode, overnight. No, faster. You do realize some of the folks you are talking about, the nurses, radiology techs, lab techs, don't make a whole lot to begin with?? Not all the docs are the three-Mercedes, 5,000-square-foot-home-owning variety, either.
Healthcare profits are not correlated to HR expenditure.
One reason it won't change is that nobody--me, you, or the next guy--will agree to give up benefits, and politicians know that they won't be reelected for promoting such. They won't give up benefits either. We(me) bash some minorities for their sense of entitlement, but everybody else(me too)has their hand out in some fashion.
The old saying "Don't gore my ox" applies. At age 54 I began drawing a full pension and began working other places. At age 62 I began drawing two other pensions for a total of three. My wife draws two. Please note that I don't claim that I deserve three pensions; however, under state and federal law I was eligible. This scenario is much more common than you think.
A "freeze on all doctors and other healthcare workers' compensation." The industry would implode, overnight. No, faster. You do realize some of the folks you are talking about, the nurses, radiology techs, lab techs, don't make a whole lot to begin with?? Not all the docs are the three-Mercedes, 5,000-square-foot-home-owning variety, either.
Healthcare profits are not correlated to HR expenditure.
He apparently doesn't understand the concept of a $100 TRILLION dollar shortfall.
Let me put this in a little context for the healthy who have not YET needed a hospital. About 6 years ago, the ACA cut the rate of Medicare reimbursement which amounted to a $700B decrease in funds coming to hospitals over a 10 year period. Thus, we are five years into that cut, and hospitals across the country were forced into hiring freezes, cuts in OR scheduling, and even closing entire hospitals as the healthcare landscape re-aligned to absorb the change. That is because most private hospitals operate with margins less than 5%, and many county facilities are perpetually in the red. For example, Grady hospital in Atlanta was forced to suspend its dialysis and oncology services in ~2011, and there was a real concern that the entire institution could close leaving metro Atlanta with no trauma or burn center. Grady narrowly survived thanks in large part to local philanthropy, but many similar hospitals didn't. Those of us that survived saw a sustained uptick in waits, crowding, etc., the effects of which are just now being studied in terms of impact on outcomes.
He apparently doesn't understand the concept of a $100 TRILLION dollar shortfall.
Let me put this in a little context for the healthy who have not YET needed a hospital. About 6 years ago, the ACA cut the rate of Medicare reimbursement which amounted to a $700B decrease in funds coming to hospitals over a 10 year period. Thus, we are five years into that cut, and hospitals across the country were forced into hiring freezes, cuts in OR scheduling, and even closing entire hospitals as the healthcare landscape re-aligned to absorb the change. That is because most private hospitals operate with margins less than 5%, and many county facilities are perpetually in the red. For example, Grady hospital in Atlanta was forced to suspend its dialysis and oncology services in ~2011, and there was a real concern that the entire institution could close leaving metro Atlanta with no trauma or burn center. Grady narrowly survived thanks in large part to local philanthropy, but many similar hospitals didn't. Those of us that survived saw a sustained uptick in waits, crowding, etc., the effects of which are just now being studied in terms of impact on outcomes.
But but trickle down economics! Doh.
Of course a freeze on all doctors and other healthcare worker's compensation, malpractice insurance costs, and healthcare products cost for a period of 5 or more years would allow for a more logical approach to healthcare management. Right now, every time someone mentions a new insurance item or regulation, prices skyrocket. Healthcare providers and institutions are just as guilty as the pharmaceutical company that raised prices 1000% on a critical drug. They just do it more incrementally rather than all at once.
No. LMFAO no.
Who would do such freezing? How would you force private corporations to do something so obviously counterproductive?
If you're talking about Medicare/Medicaid...that's already had all the juice squeezed out of it. Any more, and you have hospital systems just dropping Medicare altogether, curtailing services, or going out of business/
.
He apparently doesn't understand the concept of a $100 TRILLION dollar shortfall.
Let me put this in a little context for the healthy who have not YET needed a hospital. About 6 years ago, the ACA cut the rate of Medicare reimbursement which amounted to a $700B decrease in funds coming to hospitals over a 10 year period. Thus, we are five years into that cut, and hospitals across the country were forced into hiring freezes, cuts in OR scheduling, and even closing entire hospitals as the healthcare landscape re-aligned to absorb the change. That is because most private hospitals operate with margins less than 5%, and many county facilities are perpetually in the red. For example, Grady hospital in Atlanta was forced to suspend its dialysis and oncology services in ~2011, and there was a real concern that the entire institution could close leaving metro Atlanta with no trauma or burn center. Grady narrowly survived thanks in large part to local philanthropy, but many similar hospitals didn't. Those of us that survived saw a sustained uptick in waits, crowding, etc., the effects of which are just now being studied in terms of impact on outcomes.
Which made me wonder how Atlanta could absorb those populations. I recall when all that was going down. I was eyeing a manager position at St Josephs around that time; the changing landscape of Grady, Inc., made me nervous how the downhill effects would affect St Jo's.
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:06
Say they opened up selling medical insurance across State lines and then further deregulated that system a bit.
Wouldn't it be less expensive for a Hospital or a group of Hospitals to offer a plan that would compete with the insurance industry?
I could see a real cost savings for everyone involved if a system like that could be done.
No. LMFAO no.
Who would do such freezing? How would you force private corporations to do something so obviously counterproductive?
.
Didn't Nixon impose wage caps? I think it was across the board though and not focused on the healthcare industry. I don't think that is the answer, but I wonder how he got away with it?
A "freeze on all doctors and other healthcare workers' compensation." The industry would implode, overnight. No, faster. You do realize some of the folks you are talking about, the nurses, radiology techs, lab techs, don't make a whole lot to begin with?? Not all the docs are the three-Mercedes, 5,000-square-foot-home-owning variety, either.
Healthcare profits are not correlated to HR expenditure.
And the $ paid to them all is not even a blip on the big picture of the national health care expenditure. Many have not seen a cost of living raise in years. Those are not the people you wanna squeeze to save a few $$$. I want my health care providers to be well compensated thanx.
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:11
Didn't Nixon impose wage caps? I think it was across the board though and not focused on the healthcare industry. I don't think that is the answer, but I wonder how he got away with it?
W.I.N. Whip Inflation Now.
Yes he did,....and guess what?
It only made things worse.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 14:13
And the $ paid to them all is not even a blip on the big picture of the national health care expenditure. Many have not seen a cost of living raise in years. Those are not the people you wanna squeeze to save a few $$$. I want my health care providers to be well compensated thanx.
Everybody and every organization needs to be squeezed in order to get things back on track. Of course as soon as one's personal pocket book is targeted, its a bad thing......
Everybody and every organization needs to be squeezed in order to get things back on track. Of course as soon as one's personal pocket book is targeted, its a bad thing......
This is how this plays out in the real world: Nurses quit. So do RTs, lab techs, rad techs, nuke med techs, etc. Even some docs. Hell, I can go down the street to Big Pharma now and add $20K on my salary. Admin does one of two things, maybe both: close beds (so sicker people hang out longer in the ED, outcomes get worse), and hire agency people. Agency people will cost 1.75-3 times more. So, I quit, sign on to Nurses R Us, come back to my same job making $15 and hour more.
Freezing healthcare workers' compensation, which is such a fraction of the overall cost of healthcare, would not only hard health care delivery, but make it more expensive.
Healthcare = STEM, and there's already a relative shortage in many healthcare jobs. We should be investing in this area so people want to stay.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 14:50
This is how this plays out in the real world: Nurses quit. So do RTs, lab techs, rad techs, nuke med techs, etc. Even some docs. Hell, I can go down the street to Big Pharma now and add $20K on my salary. Admin does one of two things, maybe both: close beds (so sicker people hang out longer in the ED, outcomes get worse), and hire agency people. Agency people will cost 1.75-3 times more. So, I quit, sign on to Nurses R Us, come back to my same job making $15 and hour more.
Freezing healthcare workers' compensation, which is such a fraction of the overall cost of healthcare, would not only hard health care delivery, but make it more expensive.
Healthcare = STEM, and there's already a relative shortage in many healthcare jobs. We should be investing in this area so people want to stay.
The last few times I've been to the hospital, I found more nurses, technicians, etc. standing around talking and drinking coffee vs. ones who were actually helping patients....
The last few times I've been to the hospital, I found more nurses, technicians, etc. standing around talking and drinking coffee vs. ones who were actually helping patients....
Your sample size is small, and biased. You have made a hypothesis that can't stand to scrutiny.
Sensei, HMAC, me, and handful of others here, work in healthcare. We know what will and won't work. We all want affordable, quality healthcare--all of us. But what you propose, we have seen it, and it does not work. It's really a non sequitur.
Notice that nobody, I mean literally N-O-B-O-D-Y (except a guy on a gun forum) thinks that wage freezes or even cuts will correct the trajectory of healthcare spending. I call that a clue.
Everybody and every organization needs to be squeezed in order to get things back on track. Of course as soon as one's personal pocket book is targeted, its a bad thing......
Especially when it's the people that are providing the service. Health care workers are underpaid anyway, and curtailing wages in that industry would be a mere fart in the wind.
The last few times I've been to the hospital, I found more nurses, technicians, etc. standing around talking and drinking coffee vs. ones who were actually helping patients....
Yeah. I once knew an honest politician. Therefore, all politicians are honest.
The last few times I've been to the hospital, I found more nurses, technicians, etc. standing around talking and drinking coffee vs. ones who were actually helping patients....
So please enlighten the crowd as to your chosen field of work. I'm sure we can all relate a story of sorry service or overpriced goods/services. So, by all means......
Eurodriver
03-10-17, 17:22
So please enlighten the crowd as to your chosen field of work. I'm sure we can all relate a story of sorry service or overpriced goods/services. So, by all means......
Just came in here to say that.
It's Friday at 6pm. Time sheets are due in a few hours. My team will probably hit 80+ since Saturday.
I suspect for quite a few folks at least 10 of those hours were spent texting, getting snacks, shooting the shit, hitting on the Chinese girl specializing in pension actuary adjustments, hitting on the Chinese guy specializing in pension actuary adjustments etc.
But but trickle down economics! Doh.
Oh wow! You mean it doesn't work? Heretic!
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 20:23
So please enlighten the crowd as to your chosen field of work. I'm sure we can all relate a story of sorry service or overpriced goods/services. So, by all means......
Electrical engineer serving the fossil fuel/nuke power generation industry, petrochemical industry, and municipal infrastructure industry. Our industry was gutted by the obama years and the workforce halved. Salaries have been stagnant for almost 10 years. If I decide the money needs to increase, I'll look for something else, not demand the government get involved and subsidize my employment.
Timesheets?? I thought all the big wheel types were salaried employees with a company car, credit card, and key to the executive washroom. The actuary is Chinese because nothing is harder than Chinese arithmetic so therefore she's qualified. Why don't you ask her to lunch and for something to talk about, you can discuss tickle down economics which is more interesting than the other kind? I never had good luck with Chinese women. The last one I went out with told me that her husbands' peter was bigger than mine. That was in 1976.
Timesheets?? I thought all the big wheel types were salaried employees with a company car, credit card, and key to the executive washroom. The actuary is Chinese because nothing is harder than Chinese arithmetic so therefore she's qualified. Why don't you ask her to lunch and for something to talk about, you can discuss tickle down economics which is more interesting than the other kind? I never had good luck with Chinese women. The last one I went out with told me that her husbands' peter was bigger than mine. That was in 1976.
Of course tickle down economics is not going to work if your swinging a driver smaller than a Chinaman.
Electrical engineer serving the fossil fuel/nuke power generation industry, petrochemical industry, and municipal infrastructure industry. Our industry was gutted by the obama years and the workforce halved. Salaries have been stagnant for almost 10 years. If I decide the money needs to increase, I'll look for something else, not demand the government get involved and subsidize my employment.
That's funny, I didn't see where anyone was asking the government to subsidize their employment. Quite the contrary, most posters in the medical field want the government OUT of the business. Did I miss something?
That's funny, I didn't see where anyone was asking the government to subsidize their employment. Quite the contrary, most posters in the medical field want the government OUT of the business. Did I miss something?
Nope, you hit the nail on the head. It's really very easy:
1) Expand HSAs so that employees and their employers can contribute pretax dollars. Even allow much of this money to be invested like a 401k so that it is available for retirement.
2) Roll back the use of insurance since most non-catastrophic conditions will be cover by the patient's HSA.
3) Gradually phase out Medicare over a 50 year period.
4) Keep Medicaid only for kids and very select and rare conditions that prevent employment (certain cancers, ALS, Down's Syndrome, quadriplegia, etc.).
That's funny, I didn't see where anyone was asking the government to subsidize their employment. Quite the contrary, most posters in the medical field want the government OUT of the business. Did I miss something?
Good lord no. The more the Federal government gets involved in medicine, the harder it is for me to provide medical care to my patients. And...the less money I make. I think that SSW has some significant gaps in his understanding of the health care industry.
Singlestack Wonder
03-11-17, 09:21
That's funny, I didn't see where anyone was asking the government to subsidize their employment. Quite the contrary, most posters in the medical field want the government OUT of the business. Did I miss something?
That's where you are wrong. obamacare and the new ryancare will use tax dollars to continue to pay inflated heaalthcare costs. As long as these outrageous prices continue to get paid by government subsidies, the healthcare industry will continue to exploit the situation to line their pockets. If the healthcare industry is ever given a time out and costs frozen and one doesn't like it, they can always find a new career.
That's where you are wrong. obamacare and the new ryancare will use tax dollars to continue to pay inflated heaalthcare costs. As long as these outrageous prices continue to get paid by government subsidies, the healthcare industry will continue to exploit the situation to line their pockets. If the healthcare industry is ever given a time out and costs frozen and one doesn't like it, they can always find a new career.
Like I said....
Good lord no. The more the Federal government gets involved in medicine, the harder it is for me to provide medical care to my patients. And...the less money I make. I think that SSW has some significant gaps in his understanding of the health care industry.
Which explains why more docs gone to cash only where/if possible and many left for private industry. Losing good docs and other practitioners is not a path to improved outcomes for the population.
That's where you are wrong. obamacare and the new ryancare will use tax dollars to continue to pay inflated heaalthcare costs. As long as these outrageous prices continue to get paid by government subsidies, the healthcare industry will continue to exploit the situation to line their pockets. If the healthcare industry is ever given a time out and costs frozen and one doesn't like it, they can always find a new career.
Let's review: I am not for Obamacare or Ryancare. Not at all.
I'm pretty sure your energy field can use a timeout too, since my electric bill has slowly risen over the years. Just like in healthcare, a portion of that is paying for government meddling (i.e. killing off coal and poo-poo'ing nuclear energy) as well as helping to pay the light bill for those who can't afford it. Gee, sounds familiar doesn't it?
Which explains why more docs gone to cash only where/if possible and many left for private industry. Losing good docs and other practitioners is not a path to improved outcomes for the population.
Concierge medicine isn't a solution for anyone except the doctor that's providing it. It creates a two-tiered health care system (which is fine with me) providing only some basic health care maintenance to the select few who can afford both it and health care insurance at the same time. It's a niche, and a very narrow one that won't save anyone any money.
Concierge medicine isn't a solution for anyone except the doctor that's providing it. It creates a two-tiered health care system (which is fine with me) providing only some basic health care maintenance to the select few who can afford both it and health care insurance at the same time. It's a niche, and a very narrow one that won't save anyone any money.
The other one is corporate medicine. I lost the PCP I had for 15 years (and liked very much) that way. She went to a practice that does basic service for corporate client employees, with none of the red tape that caused her to have 12 hour days at the medical center I saw her at. She flat out good me the ACA was the last straw before she left.
What really losses me off of is that one of their clients is the city PD. Pretty bad when even local .gov says enough is enough. :(
Concierge medicine isn't a solution for anyone except the doctor that's providing it. It creates a two-tiered health care system (which is fine with me) providing only some basic health care maintenance to the select few who can afford both it and health care insurance at the same time. It's a niche, and a very narrow one that won't save anyone any money.
I'm not claiming otherwise, simply a factual observation of what's transpiring in the wild. Personally, seen too many good docs and other health care professionals leave altogether.
The other one is corporate medicine. I lost the PCP I had for 15 years (and liked very much) that way. She went to a practice that does basic service for corporate client employees, with none of the red tape that caused her to have 12 hour days at the medical center I saw her at. She flat out good me the ACA was the last straw before she left.
What really losses me off of is that one of their clients is the city PD. Pretty bad when even local .gov says enough is enough. :(
A corporate concierge gig might be cost-efficient for some large organizations that have a robust preventive medicine program or a significant worker's compensation burden.
I'm not claiming otherwise, simply a factual observation of what's transpiring in the wild. Personally, seen too many good docs and other health care professionals leave altogether.
Yes, I've seen it too, but the doctors that are leaving are only rarely leaving for some kind of cash-only practice. They're either leaving for a 9-to-5, no-call/no-weekends, punch-a-timeclock gig, or they're leaving the practice of medicine altogether. Taking a job with a VA outpatient clinic somewhere is sort of the prototype. There's not much difference these days between seeing clinic outpatients at the VA vs. the practice that today's primary care doctors have been saddled with. In the meantime, they get shorter hours, no call, good benefits.
,
I'm not claiming otherwise, simply a factual observation of what's transpiring in the wild. Personally, seen too many good docs and other health care professionals leave altogether.
I left to go back to LE between 2011-2014. I just couldn't take the drug seekers. Took a 60% pay cut. The sequester and my wife made me get a real job (her words). Even now I'm only 0.4 FTE seeing patients. The rest of my times is divided between research and education. That is no accident.
a large number of MD graduates are female, and I have heard that many of them don't stay the course anyway.
Over 50% of MD graduates these days are female. They tend to retire earlier, take more time off, are more apt to work less than full time, take less call.
I've always said it and stated it.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
I left to go back to LE between 2011-2014. I just couldn't take the drug seekers. Took a 60% pay cut. The sequester and my wife made me get a real job (her words). Even now I'm only 0.4 FTE seeing patients. The rest of my times is divided between research and education. That is no accident.
I'm working with a cash only doc right now. His specialty allows for it but obviously not an option for most.
Everybody and every organization needs to be squeezed in order to get things back on track. Of course as soon as one's personal pocket book is targeted, its a bad thing......
So how much standard of care are you willing to give up? How much advanced care when you get older are you giving up?
It seems like nobody wants to point out that the consumer is a major cause of increasing costs. Our expectations of care, technology, and time drive costs too.
And insurance. It's a big part of the problem, not the solution. Consumers don't care about the cost if "insurance" is paying for it. So we use more and expect to not have to pay for it.
So how much standard of care are you willing to give up? How much advanced care when you get older are you giving up?
It seems like nobody wants to point out that the consumer is a major cause of increasing costs. Our expectations of care, technology, and time drive costs too.
And insurance. It's a big part of the problem, not the solution. Consumers don't care about the cost if "insurance" is paying for it. So we use more and expect to not have to pay for it.
See my comments in post 36 of this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194507-Trumpcare-Unveiled/page4&styleid=9
Notice that most conversations about funding healthcare include the line, "People (or I) should not have to give up ________ to afford healthcare." It is a very curious phenomenon because even supposed libertarians and conservatives fall victim to that line of thinking. Curious because the implication is that government must make it so that _________ can still be afforded. Things are not going to get better for our country until we realize as a society that funding healthcare at the level of quality and convenience that we have come to expect MUST mean a change in our standards of living.
So how much standard of care are you willing to give up? How much advanced care when you get older are you giving up?
It seems like nobody wants to point out that the consumer is a major cause of increasing costs. Our expectations of care, technology, and time drive costs too.
And insurance. It's a big part of the problem, not the solution. Consumers don't care about the cost if "insurance" is paying for it. So we use more and expect to not have to pay for it.
In this area, there are three rural hospitals, all of which have an on-site CT scanner and an MRI scanner. Those three hospitals are 10 miles apart. It's a great convenience to their patients. An enhanced 64-slice CT scanner costs about $600,000. An enhanced 1.5T MRI scanner is about $1.2 million. That doesn't count the cost of the room that houses them...about $350,000.
a large number of MD graduates are female, and I have heard that many of them don't stay the course anyway.
My doctor tried to talk his daughter into becoming a lawyer. He told me he told her 'it takes 12 years to make a doctor, I will never forgive you if you get a boutique MD, practice for two or three years and quit to have kids, if you go to med school it is for life, otherwise don't bother going.' She's an oby/gyn right across the hall from his office, his brother just retired, he has a debilitating muscular disease and the last couple years he'd been practicing part time from a scooter. They are hard core.
Over 50% of MD graduates these days are female. They tend to retire earlier, take more time off, are more apt to work less than full time, take less call.
As I understand it the GP's drive the clinic in terms of success, they have to see a high volume of patients in order to come across enough patients needing referrals to the more specialized doctors in the practice. At least that's what my doctor told me when we were discussing why the other doctor owned clinic in town went belly up. He said the GP's/family practice doctors had enacted strict patient loads and most of them we working only 4 days a week. That caused the specialists to leave looking for greener pastures.
Is that a common scenario?
I went to a faith healer holding a big session in a church where people rolled on the ground when they felt the spirit. The healer had an assistant who played a piano as the healer worked through God to cure the sick. During the event the piano player turned blue, vomited, and fell on the floor. The man had had a heart attack. The faith healer called 911. Please overlook my thread drift. There may be a parallel between my faith healer and some doctors.
Things are not going to get better for our country until we realize as a society that funding healthcare at the level of quality and convenience that we have come to expect MUST mean a change in our standards of living.
I've heard a middle class Canadian pays about 50% income tax...
As I understand it the GP's drive the clinic in terms of success, they have to see a high volume of patients in order to come across enough patients needing referrals to the more specialized doctors in the practice. At least that's what my doctor told me when we were discussing why the other doctor owned clinic in town went belly up. He said the GP's/family practice doctors had enacted strict patient loads and most of them we working only 4 days a week. That caused the specialists to leave looking for greener pastures.
Is that a common scenario?
Specialist patient loads in some practices depend on referrals, but there are many, many different practice models out there. Multi-speciality clinics are rare these days. In my practice, all specialist surgeons, we get referrals from primary care doctors, but we've taken a lesson from the drug companies and we market our services directly to the patients.
My doctor tried to talk his daughter into becoming a lawyer. He told me he told her 'it takes 12 years to make a doctor, I will never forgive you if you get a boutique MD, practice for two or three years and quit to have kids, if you go to med school it is for life, otherwise don't bother going.' She's an oby/gyn right across the hall from his office, his brother just retired, he has a debilitating muscular disease and the last couple years he'd been practicing part time from a scooter. They are hard core.
Child abuse takes many forms.
I went to a faith healer holding a big session in a church where people rolled on the ground when they felt the spirit. The healer had an assistant who played a piano as the healer worked through God to cure the sick. During the event the piano player turned blue, vomited, and fell on the floor. The man had had a heart attack. The faith healer called 911. Please overlook my thread drift. There may be a parallel between my faith healer and some doctors.
My faith healer doesn't use a piano player. He streams Pandora.
Child abuse takes many forms.
Yes, since she's married and living with her husband, she no longer has access to his (my doctor's) indoor lap pool. Damn.
See my comments in post 36 of this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194507-Trumpcare-Unveiled/page4&styleid=9
Notice that most conversations about funding healthcare include the line, "People (or I) should not have to give up ________ to afford healthcare." It is a very curious phenomenon because even supposed libertarians and conservatives fall victim to that line of thinking. Curious because the implication is that government must make it so that _________ can still be afforded. Things are not going to get better for our country until we realize as a society that funding healthcare at the level of quality and convenience that we have come to expect MUST mean a change in our standards of living.
As one of those "I shouldn't have to give up A libertarians" I actually have an alternate view. I wish the government would get completely out of health care. Medicare is just another ponzi scheme where they take money from me all of my life, and if I happen to live to a certain age I might get a portion of it back in the form of DMV quality health care.
Instead, I'd like to see TRUE healthcare insurance reform, where ibuprophin at a hospital is billed for about the price you can buy it at Walmart. I'm completely fine with the reality that I won't ever get the same level of care as a member of Congress because I don't make that much, but my grandfather could afford to pay his medical bills "out of pocket" and there is no reason that any working class American shouldn't be able to do the same.
But insurance has become a scam, where costs are astronomically inflated so that you can carry the load of those who have "zero dinero" but use medical services even more than those who have insurance.
I know hospitals are big building full of expensive equipment with high operating costs and a bunch of people running around who will be paying off medical school expenses into their mid 30s. But even so there is still a ton of overbilling going on and it isn't all going into the pockets of ER doctors. If we health insurance and forced it to be competitive where people pay actual costs of treatment, doctors would actually be paid more and patients would pay less.
As one of those "I shouldn't have to give up A libertarians" I actually have an alternate view. I wish the government would get completely out of health care. Medicare is just another ponzi scheme where they take money from me all of my life, and if I happen to live to a certain age I might get a portion of it back in the form of DMV quality health care.
Instead, I'd like to see TRUE healthcare insurance reform, where ibuprophin at a hospital is billed for about the price you can buy it at Walmart. I'm completely fine with the reality that I won't ever get the same level of care as a member of Congress because I don't make that much, but my grandfather could afford to pay his medical bills "out of pocket" and there is no reason that any working class American shouldn't be able to do the same.
But insurance has become a scam, where costs are astronomically inflated so that you can carry the load of those who have "zero dinero" but use medical services even more than those who have insurance.
I know hospitals are big building full of expensive equipment with high operating costs and a bunch of people running around who will be paying off medical school expenses into their mid 30s. But even so there is still a ton of overbilling going on and it isn't all going into the pockets of ER doctors. If we health insurance and forced it to be competitive where people pay actual costs of treatment, doctors would actually be paid more and patients would pay less.
I can't say that I disagree with anything that you said. Unfortunately, our elected official are instead coming up with the perfect elixer of unicorn horn, dragon's tail, and eye of newt to provide everyone with healthcare "coverage." They will get away with it because not enough people know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit.
Moose-Knuckle
03-14-17, 02:59
'7.62's dead Euro. If you fly the forums long enough things like that happen. There will be others. You have to let it go.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.