View Full Version : Major General handgun qualification
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/03/08/dear-sma-please-make-marksmanship-a-priority-for-all-soldiers/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
Picture obtained from the article above.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/img_7911.jpg
The caption reads:
Maj. Gen. Darrell K. Williams, commanding general, CASCOM and Fort Lee, fires his 9mm semi-automatic pistol during qualifications today at the installation range complex. Williams joined a handful of Soldiers who fulfilled their yearly weapons qualification at the facility. (Source: Ft Lee Facebook Page)
Nice form General :)
Looks like the range could use some camera control (cause you ain't gonna fix what we see there). :(
What? You guys never trained Center Axis Relock...
44328
I bet the General could handle a dance club FULL of Russian ninjas.
What? You guys never trained Center Axis Relock...
44328
I bet the General could handle a dance club FULL of Russian ninjas.
But that ain't even C.A.R. lol
You'd all feel pretty silly if he was all X-ring.
He probably wasn't but still....
Inkslinger
03-08-17, 16:10
Is it a surprise that someone in a position of authority is less skilled than those they have authority over?
As a First Sergeant, and mindful of training quals for the squadron, I can tell you that for O-5 on up, that weapon quals were mostly pencil whipped. But keeping flying status of course was another matter. Whether that bird or one star ever flew a righteous mission or not.
So good for the general for doing it regardless.
On edit: however, I can almost hear "pew, pew, pew" coming from his mouth.
WickedWillis
03-08-17, 16:29
Is it a surprise that someone in a position of authority is less skilled than those they have authority over?
/END THREAD lol
Is it a surprise that someone in a position of authority is less skilled than those they have authority over?
I bet the general is also less skilled at changing the oil in a Stryker than a E-3 mechanic in the motor pool. Homie ain't paid to kill people with a handgun...
Inkslinger
03-08-17, 16:46
I bet the general is also less skilled at changing the oil in a Stryker than a E-3 mechanic in the motor pool. Homie ain't paid to kill people with a handgun...
But they all have to shoot one. They don't all have to change oil.
Not a knock against this General but I found out the hard way that a lot of times people get promoted just to get them out of the way.
He could be a good guy who just doesnt shoot much.
I'd sooner have a strong leader who can motivate even if he isn't the best marksman over a guy who could kick Rob Leatham's ass in a match, but is a piss poor martinet
Officers, with some exception (like, say, pilots), aren't expected to be the best at any given job. They're generalists whose goal is supposed to be leadership and strategic thinking. NCOs are the subject matter experts.
Good on him for actually hitting the range.
It's easy to talk shit, but he's a General. He could spend his career sucking politicians dicks and overseeing his staff do everything, but he throws on kit and goes to the range.
Best technique possible? No. But as Firefly said; if he's a motivating leader who gets shit done, that matters more than some bitchass, self-serving, lazy **** who can shoot a 650+ on the Humbler.
Not everyone will be General Votel.
Without a resume on the guy, he's a general in command of Ft. Lee and CASCOM. I doubt he's a career Infantry guy. I'd expect more from a dude who started out as a PL in a line unit and so on up the food chain.
As a First Sergeant, and mindful of training quals for the squadron, I can tell you that for O-5 on up, that weapon quals were mostly pencil whipped. But keeping flying status of course was another matter. Whether that bird or one star ever flew a righteous mission or not.
So good for the general for doing it regardless.
On edit: however, I can almost hear "pew, pew, pew" coming from his mouth.
Let me qualify that the following is from a story some 20 years ago, so I may be "mis-remembering" places, etc. but the punchline is correct...
Buddy of mine, former Marine, was an instructor of some sort at Division Schools. Used to tell a story about when a General would show up to qualify, the RO or whoever was in charge would tell him "get word down to those fvcks in the butt that when they raise the Generals target, there WILL be a patch in the bullseye!"
Lol...I guess the USMC doesn't want a pizza box flag officer.
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Been awhile since I've seen tactical teacup.
Outlander Systems
03-08-17, 19:00
Dude's a ****ing General. Shooting.
Props where props are due.
Good on him for actually hitting the range.
It's easy to talk shit, but he's a General. He could spend his career sucking politicians dicks and overseeing his staff do everything, but he throws on kit and goes to the range.
Best technique possible? No. But as Firefly said; if he's a motivating leader who gets shit done, that matters more than some bitchass, self-serving, lazy **** who can shoot a 650+ on the Humbler.
Not everyone will be General Votel.
All well and good, but if his primary skill is to inspire and motivate, he missed an easy one. A simple refresher on basic marksmanship and technique would result in him "looking the part" even if he didn't eat out the X ring and that would have more effectively allowed him to relate to those he leads.
Even Hollywood actors have figured out that "looking the part" lends credibility to the image you are attempting to promote. I don't expect every general to be Audie Murphy, but they should be able to "qualify" with basic infantry weapons (and I really hope he did) and be capable of performing most of the common tasks of a US soldier.
SeriousStudent
03-08-17, 19:29
Most of the two-stars I ever met use an artillery regiment as a personal sidearm.
The gent in the photo does have access to a wee bit more firepower than a M9, I would think. And if his PSD gets smoked and it's down to him and a mag of 9mm ball, then his day is probably ruined anyway.
I bet he just enjoyed getting out of the office and away from the mountain of paper and Powerpoint that follows him around like a plague.
Averageman
03-08-17, 19:41
I bet he just enjoyed getting out of the office and away from the mountain of paper and Powerpoint that follows him around like a plague.
The manufactured persona developed over the years for success in the Military and the real person are not always what you might think they are.
He will likely celebrate this day with something high in cholesterol that is super-sized and would likely make his Wife have a fit if She saw him eat it. The pants go on one leg at a time for all of us.
Most of the two-stars I ever met use an artillery regiment as a personal sidearm.
The gent in the photo does have access to a wee bit more firepower than a M9, I would think. And if his PSD gets smoked and it's down to him and a mag of 9mm ball, then his day is probably ruined anyway.
I bet he just enjoyed getting out of the office and away from the mountain of paper and Powerpoint that follows him around like a plague.
You know what. This is true on all accounts. Most two stars probably have more firepower at their beck and call than most here could dream of. While most here might want some personal time alone with said firepower, or time to delve into the minutia of what makes it tick, he probably has a better idea of how to make it kill the most enemies.
Also, having known guys who were PSD for a two star, if there was a threat to said two star, chances are the general would not be combat effective after being grabbed, lifted up, thrown down, and having two large soldiers pile on top as meat shields to protect their charge, while trying to engage all threats, and that was just for a false alarm.
Outlander Systems
03-08-17, 19:59
You should submit a DA Form 2028 to TRADOC...
All well and good, but if his primary skill is to inspire and motivate, he missed an easy one. A simple refresher on basic marksmanship and technique would result in him "looking the part" even if he didn't eat out the X ring and that would have more effectively allowed him to relate to those he leads.
Even Hollywood actors have figured out that "looking the part" lends credibility to the image you are attempting to promote. I don't expect every general to be Audie Murphy, but they should be able to "qualify" with basic infantry weapons (and I really hope he did) and be capable of performing most of the common tasks of a US soldier.
SeriousStudent
03-08-17, 20:03
You know what. This is true on all accounts. Most two stars probably have more firepower at their beck and call than most here could dream of. While most here might want some personal time alone with said firepower, or time to delve into the minutia of what makes it tick, he probably has a better idea of how to make it kill the most enemies.
Also, having known guys who were PSD for a two star, if there was a threat to said two star, chances are the general would not be combat effective after being grabbed, lifted up, thrown down, and having two large soldiers pile on top as meat shields to protect their charge, while trying to engage all threats, and that was just for a false alarm.
I did that for a couple of months when I was on active duty.
I will tell you that if the Big Guy got out a pistol and started taking it off safe, I'm not sure what would make me more nervous: Him, or the miscreants he was upset with.
All well and good, but if his primary skill is to inspire and motivate, he missed an easy one. A simple refresher on basic marksmanship and technique would result in him "looking the part" even if he didn't eat out the X ring and that would have more effectively allowed him to relate to those he leads.
Even Hollywood actors have figured out that "looking the part" lends credibility to the image you are attempting to promote. I don't expect every general to be Audie Murphy, but they should be able to "qualify" with basic infantry weapons (and I really hope he did) and be capable of performing most of the common tasks of a US soldier.
How did you inspire your subordinates as a combat leader?
We don't expect every general to be able to handle weapons like LAV but at least show some basic understanding of gun handling.
As someone who's DQ'd a retired 0-5 with a Beretta and asked them to leave the range, I can relate to some of these stories. :(
Reminds me of a drill that Jeff Cooper came up with at Gunsite. He thought that had General James Dozier was armed and was properly trained to handle a sidearm and was armed, he could have prevented the 5 "plumbers" from kidnapping him and save our military and the Italians a lot of trouble and embarassment.
Google "Dozier Drill - Gunsite".
Don Robison
03-08-17, 21:08
I've had a 3 star point his M9 at my face while asking how to get the "hammer to go down", at least this guy is trying. Like has been said, he ain't getting paid for his pistol prowess.
You should submit a DA Form 2028 to TRADOC...
If I were going to send things to the suggestion box, I have bigger suggestions.
How did you inspire your subordinates as a combat leader?
Well I'm not, so I don't. But again this was an easy one he could have capitalized on with minimum effort.
I also don't think I'm being terribly critical.
General just demonstrating his version of the Weaver Stance. Basically the "Teacup Weaver". Just don't put a S&W 500 in his hands!
You guys are all looking at that picture the wrong way.
He is shooting strong hand only. The other hand belongs to an adversary trying to pull him off target. Notice the shell casing in air and muzzle back on target under duress. The reason you don't see another person is because the General has him in a choke hold with his left(weak side) hand and is forcing him to the ground.
So why didn't some NCO step forward and give a quick brush up "Hey sir, can I help you grab some more points?" Now if the guy is known for being a jerk, well.....
It has been my experience that most of the General Officers, Governors and other bigwigs I've dealt with respond with gratitude to well-meaning advice from a SME.
So why didn't some NCO step forward and give a quick brush up "Hey sir, can I help you grab some more points?" Now if the guy is known for being a jerk, well.....
It has been my experience that most of the General Officers, Governors and other bigwigs I've dealt with respond with gratitude to well-meaning advice from a SME.
Because there probably isn't an NCO there who knows any better technique.
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Because there probably isn't an NCO there who knows any better technique.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If they did, they're too busy humping the brass' leg to tell him he is doing something wrong.
Well I'm not, so I don't.
Gotcha.
contax_shooter
03-09-17, 08:55
You guys forget many non-combat arms personnel are taught weapon familiarity/handling with Powerpoint the day prior by some NCO who isn't into guns, followed by shooting/qualifying maybe twice a year.
Spurholder
03-09-17, 09:04
So why didn't some NCO step forward and give a quick brush up "Hey sir, can I help you grab some more points?" Now if the guy is known for being a jerk, well.....
It has been my experience that most of the General Officers, Governors and other bigwigs I've dealt with respond with gratitude to well-meaning advice from a SME.
Because the general is a loggie, so is everyone around him, and Army pistol qualification is a effing joke. I believe the course was set up to build false confidence. The MP's are the only branch with a decent course of fire - the MPQC. ETA: and it ain't great by a long shot (pun intended).
Yeah, there might have been that one guy on the range staff that could've helped, but he or she probably stayed away.
Speaking of loggie GO's, I read a summary in Iraq written by a one-star, CASCOM type that referred to M9's with Crimson Trace grips as (not kidding) "precision guided weapons." That should tell you something.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-17, 11:04
Let me qualify that the following is from a story some 20 years ago, so I may be "mis-remembering" places, etc. but the punchline is correct...
Buddy of mine, former Marine, was an instructor of some sort at Division Schools. Used to tell a story about when a General would show up to qualify, the RO or whoever was in charge would tell him "get word down to those fvcks in the butt that when they raise the Generals target, there WILL be a patch in the bullseye!"
Lol...I guess the USMC doesn't want a pizza box flag officer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Made easier if the completely miss the target...
Most of the two-stars I ever met use an artillery regiment as a personal sidearm.
The gent in the photo does have access to a wee bit more firepower than a M9, I would think. And if his PSD gets smoked and it's down to him and a mag of 9mm ball, then his day is probably ruined anyway.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IicBPT9_OQE/hqdefault.jpg
The caption reads:
Maj. Gen. Darrell K. Williams, commanding general, CASCOM and Fort Lee, fires his 9mm semi-automatic pistol during qualifications today at the installation range complex. Williams joined a handful of Soldiers who fulfilled their yearly weapons qualification at the facility. (Source: Ft Lee Facebook Page)
Nice form General :)
Problem is, who is willing to step up and correct a General if the General does not already know that? No one would be my guess. Been at the range with the the Chief of large PD who could not shoot for chit and not a one member of the SWAT team stepped up to make any corrections. I assume it's like that, only worse.
That is a valid point.
Or, the general is a CAR ninja and we all plebs. :ph34r:
wildcard600
03-09-17, 14:48
You'd all feel pretty silly if he was all X-ring.
He probably wasn't but still....
Agree. Until someone posts up the General's target for examination throwing shade at his technique is kinda douchy IMO. I've seen some people with some really "interesting" shooting techniques that can still put the rounds where they want them.
Regardless of how one feels about Jeff Cooper, I think his assertion (which I am paraphrasing) that "it doesn't matter how you hold it as long as you get the hits" is spot on.
Gotcha.
And that has what to do with what? I have to be a general to understand things?
Outlander Systems
03-09-17, 15:37
Five Characters.
The Value of Opinions.
The Bad: If you honestly have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand, either learn to say nothing at all, or be very up-front about your limitations. Stay in your lane, and think twice about posting something that you believe to be true only because you read about it on the internet, or saw it in a magazine. You will earn far more respect by asking an intelligent question than by dispensing a foolish answer.
And that has what to do with what? I have to be a general to understand things?
And that has what to do with what? I have to be a general to understand things?
Of course not. I was just a Staff Sergeant, but even I know better than to comment on what someone in a profession I have no experience in should or should not be doing to accomplish their mission.
I wouldn't tell an Emergency Medicine Physician how they should carry themselves, much like I wouldn't expect someone without military service to understand what leadership traits would or would not inspire and motivate their subordinates.
A General's competence on the range was at the absolute bottom of the list of "things that mattered to my Joes" when I was a Squad Leader. Sure, his grip is as ****ed up as hockey cleats, but he's out training with his Soldiers in some fashion and that's far, far more than many ever do.
platoonDaddy
03-09-17, 15:59
From a friend of mine:
I met him last May at my Logistics BN pre-command course. He actually seemed really sharp and squared away.
Not sure what is up with that stance, maybe they caught him at the wrong time.
Of course not. I was just a Staff Sergeant, but even I know better than to comment on what someone in a profession I have no experience in should or should not be doing to accomplish their mission.
I wouldn't tell an Emergency Medicine Physician how they should carry themselves, much like I wouldn't expect someone without military service to understand what leadership traits would or would not inspire and motivate their subordinates.
A General's competence on the range was at the absolute bottom of the list of "things that mattered to my Joes" when I was a Squad Leader. Sure, his grip is as ****ed up as hockey cleats, but he's out training with his Soldiers in some fashion and that's far, far more than many ever do.
I think a few people have read way more into my comments that simply isn't there.
First I made a joke about "tactical teacup" and like a few others suggested it wasn't the best possible shooting position. I'd have actually been more impressed if he did a one hand on the hip "bullseye" shooting posture.
Second, I replied to those who said he might have just been showing is "qualifying pics" to present an image of the boss still having to do what the employees do. And then I simply suggested he would have been more effective is somebody gave him a quick run down on basic shooting positions.
I really don't have much invested in this, certainly I don't care about it to the extent that anyone taking the time to worry about my comments cares about it. To be perfectly clear, I'm sure he's good at doing "things a general does" and at no time did I attempt to discuss his ability to do "general stuff." I wasn't ever talking about how he screwed up this battle or deployed his troops wrong on some exercise.
But we are mostly talking about guns and shooting positions and I know a little bit about that stuff and I don't need to even be in the military to understand he could have adopted six alternate shooting positions and probably produced a better score.
That's it, that's all I was saying...really nothing more. The article suggest he "qualified" so his unorthodox shooting posture must have been "good enough." But 5 minutes from somebody willing to say "excuse me sir, I have a suggestion" could have resulted in a better image that was put on the internet and fewer detractors who are going to say things a lot worse than anything I have said.
And to your last point, no argument from me.
Googling for shits and grins but...
He's been Army Officering since the early 80s and most likely still shoots as he was trained.
He probably did not have to be out there but he did and any one snapshot can make you look like a stud or a dud in this BS facebook internet detective era.
Per nobody correcting chiefs and sheriffs, I most certainly HAVE seen this happen when they had to take state remedial qualification or lose their certification.
One fat black chief in particular took 5 hours to get a passing score.
If someone's SWAT jock doesn't correct them it is usually out of ass kissing or vindictiveness. But an outside Instructor is not letting a CLEO off the range until he passes. Anyone caught fudging scores gets de-certed on POST and Instructor.
And they can find out who is doing what.
I'm more worried about some dude breaking into his house or mugging him at Wal Mart than zips in the wire and it all coming down to him doing one hell of an El Presidente drill.
And even THEN, I still have faith he could probably shoot their ass.
Shooting is a thing, it is not the only thing.
More human life has been annihilated with a radio and a laser designator.
I sincerely doubt the fate of the entire United States hinges on whether or not MAJ GEN Williams has a perfect Isolceles stance and is getting off the X and is doing a Hondo roll.
Five Characters.
Sorry, but in this case, isn't that a bit like somebody saying "If you've never been en elected official you aren't qualified to criticize the President?"
I'm not here saying some Delta guy is holding his rifle wrong.
I'm not here saying some SEAL has the wrong knife.
So, beyond the obvious jokes about his...technique...I actually think a MG on the range is ****ing unheard of.
In my 8 years, I never once saw anyone above the rank of Captain actually shoot on the range with their Soldiers. It was the norm for a Company Commander to jump, and after we rucked back, he would hand his rifle to his RTO and make him clean it and turn it in. I saw all 5 CPTs I had as COs do this as a common practice. They would sit in their office, drink beer with the 1SG, while we cleaned weapons. But the attitude of most Field Grade Officers and above was that "I'm not a shooter", so they never went to the range. They had other shit to do, which I didn't fully appreciate until I was stuck in S-3 and had to see how much goes on behind the scenes.
One morning, I was running my Squad for PT and ran into our then-Commanding General, MG Nicholson, jogging on his own down a firebreak near Ritz-Epps. We gave him the greeting of the day, and instead of just moseying along, he said "You look like you're having fun. I'll fall in here, Sergeant" and ran with us about 2 miles to where I was going to do hill sprints. He talked to us while we ran, and once there, he sprinted up, came back, and let me know that while he was having a blast, he needed to head back so he could get to work. My guys were mind blown that the Division Grandpa was even out with his men, and even more mind blown that he would just quietly fall in and be a Paratrooper with them. He just ran with us, and wanted to get to know us a little bit. I respect him immensely for that, and to this day consider that one of the most effective examples of leadership I had the fortune of witnessing. My guys talked about that for weeks.
Thing is; Generals like that are so few and far between. The MG at the range could have sat inside, had some staff NCO hand jam a qual card, and carried on. His career wouldn't have been effected one way or the other.
But while it's funny, and herp-derp teacup and all that, I still gotta give the guy props for kitting up and going to the range. That's the equivalent of a Fortune 500 CEO going downstairs and helping mop the floor. He sure as shit doesn't have to do it, but if he did, it would never be forgotten by his subordinates. His shooting prowess aside, I'd say he's doing it right as a leader by being there with his Soldiers. Who, I'm sure, are RELENTLESSLY talking shit behind his back because of that pic, but can also hopefully appreciate the sentiment of his being there.
We don't (well...we shouldn't) make fun of shooters at the range who are actively trying to improve and may not be as squared away as we are. We appreciate that they're out there, getting it in where they can, and trying to be better shooters.
So yeah, his shooting looks fuuuuuucked up, and I think it's hilarious (which the group text going with all my old NCO buddies agrees) but I don't feel it reflects a bit on his leadership ability.
*EDIT: This isn't directed at anyone on this site, just noticed a trend all over the internet with people talking shit about his leadership ability.
So, beyond the obvious jokes about his...technique...I actually think a MG on the range is ****ing unheard of.
In my 8 years, I never once saw anyone above the rank of Captain actually shoot on the range with their Soldiers. It was the norm for a Company Commander to jump, and after we rucked back, he would hand his rifle to his RTO and make him clean it and turn it in. I saw all 5 CPTs I had as COs do this as a common practice. They would sit in their office, drink beer with the 1SG, while we cleaned weapons. But the attitude of most Field Grade Officers and above was that "I'm not a shooter", so they never went to the range.
I suspect the famous last words of many a dead officer.
I suspect the famous last words of many a dead officer.
I respectfully disagree.
It's usually "OH SHIT THIS IS LIMA 6 ACTUAL REDLEG, REDLEG REQUEST FIREMISSION THEY ARE RIGHT ON TOP OF US AAARRRRHHG ~ZZZZzziiip-PING" static
I think most people's last words are "oh shit!" anyway.
Regardless, I know I want my last words to be "I warned you, God......"
I'm sure the guy is squared away as some have noted. He isn't an infantry officer so I wouldn't expect to see Rob Leatham-style tactical shooting, and his stance is a little goofy you gotta admit. That said, would the CG of the 10th Mountain/82nd/101st not be expected to be a little more familiar and proficient with firearms?
SeriousStudent
03-09-17, 19:41
So, beyond the obvious jokes about his...technique...I actually think a MG on the range is ****ing unheard of.
In my 8 years, I never once saw anyone above the rank of Captain actually shoot on the range with their Soldiers. It was the norm for a Company Commander to jump, and after we rucked back, he would hand his rifle to his RTO and make him clean it and turn it in. I saw all 5 CPTs I had as COs do this as a common practice. They would sit in their office, drink beer with the 1SG, while we cleaned weapons. But the attitude of most Field Grade Officers and above was that "I'm not a shooter", so they never went to the range. They had other shit to do, which I didn't fully appreciate until I was stuck in S-3 and had to see how much goes on behind the scenes.
One morning, I was running my Squad for PT and ran into our then-Commanding General, MG Nicholson, jogging on his own down a firebreak near Ritz-Epps. We gave him the greeting of the day, and instead of just moseying along, he said "You look like you're having fun. I'll fall in here, Sergeant" and ran with us about 2 miles to where I was going to do hill sprints. He talked to us while we ran, and once there, he sprinted up, came back, and let me know that while he was having a blast, he needed to head back so he could get to work. My guys were mind blown that the Division Grandpa was even out with his men, and even more mind blown that he would just quietly fall in and be a Paratrooper with them. He just ran with us, and wanted to get to know us a little bit. I respect him immensely for that, and to this day consider that one of the most effective examples of leadership I had the fortune of witnessing. My guys talked about that for weeks.
Thing is; Generals like that are so few and far between. The MG at the range could have sat inside, had some staff NCO hand jam a qual card, and carried on. His career wouldn't have been effected one way or the other.
But while it's funny, and herp-derp teacup and all that, I still gotta give the guy props for kitting up and going to the range. That's the equivalent of a Fortune 500 CEO going downstairs and helping mop the floor. He sure as shit doesn't have to do it, but if he did, it would never be forgotten by his subordinates. His shooting prowess aside, I'd say he's doing it right as a leader by being there with his Soldiers. Who, I'm sure, are RELENTLESSLY talking shit behind his back because of that pic, but can also hopefully appreciate the sentiment of his being there.
We don't (well...we shouldn't) make fun of shooters at the range who are actively trying to improve and may not be as squared away as we are. We appreciate that they're out there, getting it in where they can, and trying to be better shooters.
So yeah, his shooting looks fuuuuuucked up, and I think it's hilarious (which the group text going with all my old NCO buddies agrees) but I don't feel it reflects a bit on his leadership ability.
*EDIT: This isn't directed at anyone on this site, just noticed a trend all over the internet with people talking shit about his leadership ability.
Your CG was a 24-carat stud. Sounds like an awesome commander.
Coal Dragger
03-09-17, 19:56
Yeah his stance looks jacked up, but as noted he's out there with his troops.
Plus we don't know a few things, like maybe his eyes aren't the best anymore. Maybe that's where he has to be in order to get a sharp front sight.
Who knows. Maybe he was spraying rounds all over with reckless abandon just pew pewing it up. At least he was out there.
To get his rank, didn't this guy have to complete Ranger School? Didn't he learn to shoot there? Whether he did or did not, the brass is missing a big chance to set good examples. I'm disappointed. General Gavin of 82nd Airborne WW2 fame jumped in combat with his men and carried an M1 rifle--not some peashooter.
platoonDaddy
03-09-17, 20:54
From his BIO, he has his shit together. Surprised he doesn't have his Ranger Tab (at least I don't see that from his picture).
Combat Action Badge, Parachutist Badge, Parachute Rigger Badge
Defense Superior Service Medal, Bronze Star Medal with oak leaf cluster
His post graduate education includes: Master's degree in Military Arts and Sciences from the School of Advanced Military Studies, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; Master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies (Distinguished Graduate) from the National War College, Fort McNair, Washington D.C.; and master's degree in Business Management (Logistics) from the Pennsylvania State University, State College, Pa.
44350
As mentioned the laudable thing about MG Williams going to the range is not how well he shoots, rather that he is there. That sets a standard for his subordinate Commanders to follow. It is a very basic leadership technique that, unfortunately, doesn't very often crossover into the civilian world.
Problem is, who is willing to step up and correct a General if the General does not already know that? No one would be my guess. Been at the range with the the Chief of large PD who could not shoot for chit and not a one member of the SWAT team stepped up to make any corrections. I assume it's like that, only worse.
There are ways to coach VIPs and others in the chain of command. Done well, it might not only be tolerated but appreciated.
Coal Dragger
03-10-17, 01:49
Absolutely. Too bad one of the range NCO's didn't man up/woman up and go give their CG some tactful tips to improve his performance.
No good leader is going to be mad when a subject matter expert demonstrates that they are in fact a subject matter expert and can help get better results from the troops. If anything one would think a good leader would appreciate that more than just about anyone else out there.
You guys forget many non-combat arms personnel are taught weapon familiarity/handling with Powerpoint the day prior by some NCO who isn't into guns, followed by shooting/qualifying maybe twice a year.
Exactly. It's a good day if they get any type of instruction, much less anything besides cycle of function and/or a functions test. Both of which are usually wrong anyways. Still worse is when they are into guns and think they know everything.
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Exactly. It's a good day if they get any type of instruction, much less anything besides cycle of function and/or a functions test. Both of which are usually wrong anyways. Still worse is when they are into guns and think they know everything.
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Also, a picture captures a very brief moment in time.
Ret!
contax_shooter
03-10-17, 07:53
As a PAO student at DINFOS, I must point out that the 25V or 46Q made a horrible image to represent the CG. Again, probably not a firearms enthusiast. The PAO office should've chosen a better image to reflect the overall message, they did a half-assed job.
I retired 17 years ago this past December. How is the Army now regarding APFT for Combat Support & Service Support personnel? Just like with weapons' qualifying, I saw a lot of variation from one command to another. I remember some 92 Gulf Mess Hall staff that probably couldn't run 50 yards.
I retired 17 years ago this past December. How is the Army now regarding APFT for Combat Support & Service Support personnel? Just like with weapons' qualifying, I saw a lot of variation from one command to another. I remember some 92 Gulf Mess Hall staff that probably couldn't run 50 yards.
The APFT is the same it has been for everyone. Do you mean regular PRT? Or just the way they grade the APFT?
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Averageman
03-13-17, 08:15
I retired 17 years ago this past December. How is the Army now regarding APFT for Combat Support & Service Support personnel? Just like with weapons' qualifying, I saw a lot of variation from one command to another. I remember some 92 Gulf Mess Hall staff that probably couldn't run 50 yards.
I work with Combat Support folks everyday.
You've still got a mixed bag of personalities and motivations. For the most part the Mechanics I work with everyday seem to be in decent shape, perhaps even in better shape than the Mechanics when I was in.
You still see the occasional fat guy in cook whites that looks about 40 lbs over the limit. I don't think that will ever change.
I think it helps a lot that these guys are serving in an Infantry Regiment. The standards are kept pretty clear and those who don't keep them are fairly obvious.
been entertaining reading this...
My civvy observation is there are Generals and there are GENERALS... I've met some and know of others 2nd hand who could probably hang with even some of our SME's in fitness, Arms skill, etc. Remember, most of the IN Generals would have had multiple passes through Ranger regiment and similar. Even the 82nd and 173rd field grade officers are pretty dialed in.
And clearly there are also some generals who look the part, but probably deserve every bit of disdain some would heap on them.
A General's competence on the range was at the absolute bottom of the list of "things that mattered to my Joes" when I was a Squad Leader. Sure, his grip is as ****ed up as hockey cleats, but he's out training with his Soldiers in some fashion and that's far, far more than many ever do.
That was my first thought.
From a friend of mine: I met him last May at my Logistics BN pre-command course. He actually seemed really sharp and squared away.
No direct experience myself, but the Infantry officers I know don't make fun of loggies... they make fun of fat tankers, blueberries, AirForce pilot douches, etc. And PAO's. But loggies bring you stuff you want. They are your friend. :-) (OK, they probably do make fun of a few loggies if a douche. But not as a class.)
So I gotta give him a pass, and instead dump on the PAO who published the shot.
In my 8 years, I never once saw anyone above the rank of Captain actually shoot on the range with their Soldiers. It was the norm for a Company Commander to jump, and after we rucked back, he would hand his rifle to his RTO and make him clean it and turn it in. I saw all 5 CPTs I had as COs do this as a common practice. They would sit in their office, drink beer with the 1SG, while we cleaned weapons.
That kind of surprises me to hear as I'm told that type of thing would not be tolerated in the mainstream IN units, certainly the desirable ones. And would even be an OER issue if observed. Of course, there could be exceptions like CPT gets the "RedDevil 6 needs you immediately", but culture now seems to be Officers carry their own weight on things like gear and rifle cleaning, eat last, etc. Unless it varies from unit to unit.
As to range time, the CC CPT's better be there unless doing something else mandated from above. LT's absolutely there for the duration.
Not to imply field grades may not dump duties to go party with buds, just that what GTF described would be considered toxic leadership by most officers I know.
Officers, with some exception (like, say, pilots), aren't expected to be the best at any given job. They're generalists whose goal is supposed to be leadership and strategic thinking. NCOs are the subject matter experts.
It's interesting, I've been surprised at the breadth company grade IN officers are trained. They pretty much are expected to know the basics on how to do the job of any of the line enlisted under their command. IE: any of the crew served weapons, radio gear, etc. Does not mean they are experts, but certainly proficient. For sure in my son's unit.
And are expected to be as fit or better, able to qualify on weapons, run the radios in an emergency, plus all their normal officer crap. And then go add additional skills (Jumpmaster, Pathfinder, RSLC, etc) before heading to CCC. Any given enlisted may be better, or have more experience. But they for sure have to at least meet the standard, and be willing to demonstrate it. For stuff like APFT, better be able to ace it or close to it, at least on the old man scale.
Having a subordinate clean your weapon is disgusting. Unless your taking turns and you've cleaned theirs!
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