Best General Purpose All Around AR-15 under $800 [Archive]

redfernsoljah

03-10-17, 08:27

My brother is looking for the best he an get I say under $800 he was thinking around $500 for an all around AR15. Doesnt have to be fancy but a good basic, upgradable, reliable, quality made unit that his life could depend on. I just haven't researched anything sub 1k before and really don't know the current option given the market. The AR has to be new, 16", no other real request, basic style (ie issue) or better, can be blemished, or even .mil incentive pricing.

Would love to get him int a colt or bum yet don't know of any options even with .mil pricing. Thanks for the help.

556Cliff

03-10-17, 08:37

Colt 6720 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-AR15-A3-Tactical-Patrol-Lightweight-Carbine-p/ar6720.htm

Colt OEM1 6920 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem1.htm

Colt OEM2 6920 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem2.htm

If he is afraid of installing a trigger guard with the OEM models he can just get one of these. > http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/trigger-guards/ar-15-m16-pinless-oversized-triggerguard-prod56059.aspx

redfernsoljah

03-10-17, 09:00

Jormungandr

03-10-17, 09:05

jstalford

03-10-17, 09:07

Get oem from grantvon sale if he still has some.

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delta-1

03-10-17, 09:08

You could also get a BCM upper and lower separately and assemble them, which should be less than $800.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

556Cliff

03-10-17, 09:24

You can get an OEM-1 then a magpul set. Cheap enough that if he wants different furniture or rail later you're not out much and it's better than the standard m4 stuff.

ETA- G&R has a great deal on the OEM rifles right now

I would recommend G&R as well but Grant is always out of stock.

It looks like he has the OEM2 though.

556Cliff

03-10-17, 09:27

Thanks 556Cliff. Out of those the 6720 would be a good option. Just not too sure of giving him a pencil Barrel. If it had a ref gov cut or similar that could have been a winner

The no furniture stuff is simple for most people, but it being a first rifle, I would rather him learn it first then decide what he needs or wants. I do need to mention. Since it looks like I didn't. Has to be ready to go out of the box. No sights are ok though but a bonus.

Anyone else... anything. Thanks again

When my youngest brother was looking for an AR15 I told him to get a 6720 from Grant, I think he was selling them for $799.00 at the time. The only thing I regret was not getting one myself at the time (around spring 2012 I think).

The 6720 has turned out to be my second favorite Colt carbine, just edged out by the 6940. The only thing I would change about the 6940 would be for it to have the same lightweight barrel of the 6720.

Colt 6920 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-Law-Enforcement-M4-Carbine-p/le6920.htm

Colt 6721 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-AR15-A3-Tactical-Patrol-Carbine-p/ar6721.htm

Keep in mind that the 6721 has a 1/9 twist heavy barrel.

Defaultmp3

03-10-17, 09:52

Thanks 556Cliff. Out of those the 6720 would be a good option. Just not too sure of giving him a pencil Barrel. If it had a ref gov cut or similar that could have been a winnerWhat's wrong with the pencil barrel?

556BlackRifle

03-10-17, 10:02

When my youngest brother was looking for an AR15 I told him to get a 6720 from Grant, I think he was selling them for $799.00 at the time. The only thing I regret was not getting one myself at the time (around spring 2012 I think).

The 6720 has turned out to be my second favorite Colt carbine, just edged out by the 6940.

Colt 6920 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-Law-Enforcement-M4-Carbine-p/le6920.htm

Colt 6721 > https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-AR15-A3-Tactical-Patrol-Carbine-p/ar6721.htm

Keep in mind that the 6721 has a 1/9 twist heavy barrel.

That's a hell of a great deal. (both) If I was looking for an $800 AR, I'd be all over that 6721. In my experience, a 1/9 twist isn't as bad as some make it out to be.

556Cliff

03-10-17, 10:09

That's a hell of a great deal. (both) If I was looking for an $800 AR, I'd be all over that 6721. In my experience, a 1/9 twist isn't as bad as some make it out to be.

1/9 twist is okay I guess, it will stabilize up to the 68/69 grain rounds.

Brokenarrow87

03-10-17, 10:14

$820 for the colt 6720 is a steal! I just picked one up a couple weeks ago and love it. That perfectly staked bolt, Castle nut, MP bolt and barrel markings really gives you a warm feeling.

redfernsoljah

03-10-17, 11:26

What's wrong with the pencil barrel?

For a gp rifle eh.. mostly personal. But possibility of stringing when heated up.as well as I prefer a different twist rate in my barrel.

But I don't know how he plan on using it. If he ends up wanting to do something like a slidefire it can definitely have problems. Otherwise I personally have one on a DD rifle. But my gotos don't.

556Cliff

03-10-17, 11:45

For a gp rifle eh.. mostly personal. But possibility of stringing when heated up.as well as I prefer a different twist rate in my barrel.

But I don't know how he plan on using it. If he ends up wanting to do something like a slidefire it can definitely have problems. Otherwise I personally have one on a DD rifle. But my gotos don't.

I don't know what twist rate you prefer but the 1/7 barrels on most Colt rifles will stabilize all of the best accuracy and defensive loads.

I would avoid gimmicky crap like the slide fire stock.

Stickman

03-10-17, 13:27

For $500, tell your brother to rethink things. Much better to spend more and get more, than to go cheap and be sorry later on. If your brother is the type of guy who is going to keep this long term, there is no reason at all to go with the junk stuff. If he buys stuff, then pawns it off a month or two later, go ahead and go cheap as it really won't matter. He doesn't need optics or anything fancy to start, he just needs a weapon, basic sights, ammo, and mags.

There isn't really anyone out there doing anything fantastic for LE/ MIL pricing that I'm aware of, at least not down in the lower pricing or basic models. Any discounts would be in the higher end, where money is being made on accessories like rails or packages. Even then, most places are at bare bones pricing.

MegademiC

03-10-17, 14:04

For a gp rifle eh.. mostly personal. But possibility of stringing when heated up.as well as I prefer a different twist rate in my barrel.

But I don't know how he plan on using it. If he ends up wanting to do something like a slidefire it can definitely have problems. Otherwise I personally have one on a DD rifle. But my gotos don't.

A slide fire stock would pretty much take the "g" out of the "gp". And add $100. Spend the extra hundred buck on something useful, like a better barrel (1/7 and/or socom if that's his thing), or training, or ammo. Hell, even a bcm with a longer handguard.

The stock should be the last thing to change, and it's always the first because it changes the looks the most.

556BlackRifle

03-10-17, 14:10

1/9 twist is okay I guess, it will stabilize up to the 68/69 grain rounds.

I've found the M193 and M885 to be similar out of a 1:9 vs 1:7 16" CL barrel. The heavier weight bullets may have an advantage with the 1:7 - no denying that, but with my handloads, they were about the same. Berger VLD 70 and 73 grains. Also same was true with my SMK 69 and 77 grain handloads. I should note that the farthest I've ever taken these out to and measured for accuracy is 300 yards.

tehpwnag3

03-10-17, 14:15

Not to completely kick on your suggestion, but I just bought this upper today and with BCG & CH plus shipping (and tax and a new handguard), add the lower (and tax plus transfer fee) will bring the total north of $1000. Unless I am missing something, I'd also like to get a complete BCM rifle for less than $800. Please show me the error of my ways.

You could also get a BCM upper and lower separately and assemble them, which should be less than $800.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

redfernsoljah

03-10-17, 14:47

I appreciate everyones help and suggestions. This is making my head spin. Myself not to bad talk my Brother in Law. I don't understand how he can make the money he does well over 6 figures and be so cheap on things and setting budgets on things he doesn't know about. Anyway, I spent that last couple of hours putting together all the information that I could for him as far as a build that is what I would consider the minimum bar and fit it for him as being able to use it for many uses. Anyways I did give him some suggestions but here is what I ended up telling hi he should really look at doing.

The Colt OEM2 Option with a 13" BCM KMR-A, MOD O Stock , and grip. Magpul pro backups and the Aimpoint PRO. All in for the rifle and setup he would be in right at $1100 for the rifle and $1500 with the optics, sling, magazines.

In all it is a great overall cost for what he would be getting and gives him the most flexibility for his money. with his budget I am not even considering magnified optics as what I think would suit him is at least 1k+. It overall would give him a GP rifle he could use for anything from Self Defense, Classes, Plinking, to Hunting. I just hope that I didn't just waste my day when I could have been doing other things. It is hard to convince people who don't know nor understand that even though they see cheaper options that doesn't mean that they are worth getting. I did mention something of a comparison like a brand name to a Chinese knock off. Even a off brand pickup to a Toyota pickup.. Again hard to get across. I think that it will take me having him shoot more of my rifles and learn how to feel for them and push them to failure. Heck I even offered a lower build that I am not currently using so he can scale his costs and go with a BCM KMR upper in 16. Oh well only time will tell. At least I have it saved for future questions of the like.

tehpwnag3

03-10-17, 14:56

Funny you should say that. Last Christmas, my BIL was asking me what I thought about his co-worker being able to build a compete AR for "like 400 bucks". This after explaining to him what I could build for him with "X" amount of dollars.

SiGfever

03-10-17, 15:54

This...

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6720

C4IGrant

03-10-17, 16:01

C4IGrant

03-10-17, 16:04

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194279-Colt-AR-Sale!

C4

jpmuscle

03-10-17, 16:14

And now those colt lowers...... Ugh

Hank6046

03-10-17, 16:56

Colt or Aero.

C4IGrant

03-10-17, 17:26

And now those colt lowers...... Ugh

The struggle is real.

C4

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WillBrink

03-10-17, 17:55

Those prices are all high. We have OEM's on sale for $690.

C4

Sounds like a great price. What's the difference between OEM1 and OEM2 ? A quick glance at the links was not obvious to me.

redfernsoljah

03-10-17, 18:07

Sounds like a great price. What's the difference between OEM1 and OEM2 ? A quick glance at the links was not obvious to me.

One has a fixed Front sight post the other has none. Instead a short gas block on the OEM2.

Beat Trash

03-10-17, 18:27

Those prices are all high. We have OEM's on sale for $690.

C4

Get an OEM1, add MagPul furniture and a rear MBUS.

Then lube it, load it and shoot it....

WillBrink

03-10-17, 18:35

One has a fixed Front sight post the other has none. Instead a short gas block on the OEM2.

Thanx man. Might have to grab one.

556Cliff

03-10-17, 18:46

Those prices are all high. We have OEM's on sale for $690.

C4

I'm only seeing the OEM2 in stock.

T2C

03-10-17, 20:14

And now those colt lowers...... Ugh

Please elaborate.

seb5

03-10-17, 21:07

For a novice I can't think of a better option than the Colt. It will do 90% of anything he would need or want. Other than a Noveske and my SBR all of my carbines are LW barreled BCMs. The price is great and he can add as he learns what he wants. No reason to overthink this. If he's too cheap for that buy a Palmetto upper and lower and blast dirt clods.

Kdubya

03-10-17, 22:23

I don't understand how he can make the money he does well over 6 figures and be so cheap on things...

Reminds me of a story I hear every so often. An old farmer gives a young neighbor a ride into town one day. It's well known the old farmer is fairly well off, so the young neighbor thinks it's odd that the old man's driving such a beat up old truck. At one point the young guy says, "You know, if I had your kind of money, I sure as hell wouldn't be driving this truck." The old guy turns to him and says, "That's why you don't have my kind of money."

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Some delayed gratification and frugality on the smaller things can add up to some much larger things in the long run. Could be your BIL's approach.

Mrgunsngear

03-10-17, 23:09

The OEMs Grant is offering are great deals for sure; if he's on a strict budget of $800 then that plus a set of basic furniture with a Magpul/B5 forend will work well. But, I'd personally go with the 6720 from Arms Unlimited. It's my favorite Colt AR (haven't tried the CCU) (https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-AR15-A3-Tactical-Patrol-Lightweight-Carbine-p/ar6720.htm?Click=46687)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslTE5iyUIA

MistWolf

03-11-17, 02:04

G&R has 6920s with Magpul Slimline furniture for $919 after entering the discount code. It's ready to shoot right out of the box- except for needing to clean off the preservative and lubing

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920MPS-B

Butch

03-11-17, 05:50

Reminds me of a story I hear every so often. An old farmer gives a young neighbor a ride into town one day. It's well known the old farmer is fairly well off, so the young neighbor thinks it's odd that the old man's driving such a beat up old truck. At one point the young guy says, "You know, if I had your kind of money, I sure as hell wouldn't be driving this truck." The old guy turns to him and says, "That's why you don't have my kind of money."

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Some delayed gratification and frugality on the smaller things can add up to some much larger things in the long run. Could be your BIL's approach.

Sam Walton died owning an old Chevy pickup truck. It will be very difficult to buy a new, ready to fire weapon for $800. If he makes six figures and wants to spend less than $800, he either does not really want one or it needs to be explained to him that it can't be done at that price point.

C4IGrant

03-11-17, 07:10

I'm only seeing the OEM2 in stock.

The OEM1's are in stock.

C4

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C4IGrant

03-11-17, 07:12

Please elaborate.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920-LWR

C4

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556Cliff

03-11-17, 09:46

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920-LWR

C4

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I'm not seeing the stripped Colt lowers on the Colt section of your website.

I see that both OEMs are in stock now though.

You need more AR15A4s so I can use that fancy discount code on one. ;)

C4IGrant

03-11-17, 09:59

I'm not seeing the stripped Colt lowers on the Colt section of your website.

I see that both OEMs are in stock now though.

You need more AR15A4s so I can use that fancy discount code on one. ;)

Click the link.

C4

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556Cliff

03-11-17, 11:43

Click the link.

C4

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I know your link works. It's just that if you go to the Colt section on your site it isn't there.

C4IGrant

03-11-17, 13:21

I know your link works. It's just that if you go to the Colt section on your site it isn't there.

We haven't added them to the Colt section yet.

C4

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tehpwnag3

03-12-17, 10:29

I love the analogy. However, as we all know, buy once cry one. With junk you'll probably end up spending more in the long run and I think that goes against the wisdom of the old farmer.

Reminds me of a story I hear every so often. An old farmer gives a young neighbor a ride into town one day. It's well known the old farmer is fairly well off, so the young neighbor thinks it's odd that the old man's driving such a beat up old truck. At one point the young guy says, "You know, if I had your kind of money, I sure as hell wouldn't be driving this truck." The old guy turns to him and says, "That's why you don't have my kind of money."

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Some delayed gratification and frugality on the smaller things can add up to some much larger things in the long run. Could be your BIL's approach.

Kdubya

03-12-17, 15:10

I love the analogy. However, as we all know, buy once cry one. With junk you'll probably end up spending more in the long run and I think that goes against the wisdom of the old farmer.

Definitely agree with buy once, cry once. I also believe the two approaches can coexist. It really comes down to perspective. In this case, what one individual perceives to be "junk" will differ from another, and neither's position is even guaranteed to be in line with reality; does the rifle work? For some, a rifle is junk if every single component isn't verifiably mil-spec. It doesn't matter if it functions and is reliable over time. They care more about the ingredients than the taste. For others a junk rifle is one that, outside of reasonable maintenance, does not function reliably. The latter approach gives one a massive number of choices that do not qualify as junk.

redfernsoljah

03-13-17, 23:01

I appreciate everyone's input. I just dont stay on top of the market enough to keep up with the best deals. I myself go a bit overboard with building up or sourcing out my ARs. Lure, Noveske, BAD, DD, BCM, Colt, Spikes, and a couple repeats.

What I did to me up doing is this. I got as much info as I could from him and found that it not just him but his father who is interested. But he is willing to go in on it so he can have ownership of it to. Especially since my little sister, his wife, isn't too keen on firearms in the house with young ones. This way he can keep it at his dads and still have access to. Whom is only a few miles away. I am in Blue Ridge Ga and he in Charlotte, NC so borrowing from me just doesn't work. Though in my trust I have put my own father on it and he is within 30 miles and has a Noveske and a Larue at his residence. Anyways other things to mention, personally I don't care for a slide fire, not my thing, not going to go anything good for me but waste ammo. I am not in the job of needing suppressive fire as I am now retired from that line of work. And my broken, blown up ass ain't going to be assualiting anyone or any position ever again. Though it is up to him in the end if that is what he%2

Alnamvet68

03-18-17, 07:39

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-Basic-M4-Rifle-p/mi-m4.htm

26 Inf

03-18-17, 11:15

Definitely agree with buy once, cry once. I also believe the two approaches can coexist. It really comes down to perspective. In this case, what one individual perceives to be "junk" will differ from another, and neither's position is even guaranteed to be in line with reality; does the rifle work? For some, a rifle is junk if every single component isn't verifiably mil-spec. It doesn't matter if it functions and is reliable over time. They care more about the ingredients than the taste. For others a junk rifle is one that, outside of reasonable maintenance, does not function reliably. The latter approach gives one a massive number of choices that do not qualify as junk.

I just was skimming through this thread and read this, good, reasonable analogy.

Nfd538

03-19-17, 15:45

I'm in the same boat with my brother. He's asking me for a cheaper AR (under) $700. I may end up building him one.

Kdubya

03-19-17, 19:13

I'm in the same boat with my brother. He's asking me for a cheaper AR (under) $700. I may end up building him one.

If you have the means (tools) to build one, that would be a solid option and could be catered to his tastes. But there are plenty of choices "off the rack" for around $700 that would serve him just fine.

Nfd538

03-19-17, 19:29

If you have the means (tools) to build one, that would be a solid option and could be catered to his tastes. But there are plenty of choices "off the rack" for around $700 that would serve him just fine.

Agreed. Building is fun though.

Kdubya

03-19-17, 20:20

Agreed. Building is fun though.

Absolutely. You could always do a combo of the two. Grab a stripped lower and complete upper (either with or without the CH and BCG). Still somewhat customized and fun from a build perspective, but less work.

Nfd538

03-19-17, 21:14

Absolutely. You could always do a combo of the two. Grab a stripped lower and complete upper (either with or without the CH and BCG). Still somewhat customized and fun from a build perspective, but less work.

I actually mentioned that to him and may go that route.

Sipank96

03-20-17, 02:46

S&W M&P Sport II is a solid choice, you can easily find it for under $700 so you have money to swap the furniture too if you really want. 5 of my friends have the sport 2 and they've all been quality rifles, easily sighted in and only 1 of them had a faulty bolt which S&W replaced within 2 weeks shipping and all.

Eurodriver

03-20-17, 07:03

20% bolt failure rate.

Seems legit.

williejc

03-20-17, 08:28

I'm waiting for somebody to recommend a Colt Expanse. I know at least one brilliant member here who has one.

Kdubya

03-20-17, 09:44

20% bolt failure rate.

Seems legit.

So with recent threads of BCM bolts failing to extract, what would you say their failure rate stands at? They also made the customers cover the expense to send it in for repair.

WillBrink

03-20-17, 10:08

Agreed. Building is fun though.

Agreed, but my idea of building is attaching a finished lower to a finished upper.

scooter22

03-20-17, 12:09

20% bolt failure rate.

Seems legit.

To what are you referring?

So with recent threads of BCM bolts failing to extract, what would you say their failure rate stands at? They also made the customers cover the expense to send it in for repair.

Link?

Official Kremlin Transmission

Eurodriver

03-20-17, 12:15

So with recent threads of BCM bolts failing to extract, what would you say their failure rate stands at? They also made the customers cover the expense to send it in for repair.

I can't speak to BCMs bolt failure rate, however if my five buddies had BCMs and one had a defective bolt I would say it is 20% among my friends.

It's just math.

williejc

03-20-17, 12:31

Parts failure discussions remind me of Jeff Cooper's reply when a guy wrote and asked if a certain pistol would endure for the long run. Cooper replied that in the long run we'll all be dead. I think we should be more concerned about chronic failure rather than statistically inevitable occasional failure that reflects problems within the same lot of parts.

C4IGrant

03-20-17, 12:40

So with recent threads of BCM bolts failing to extract, what would you say their failure rate stands at? They also made the customers cover the expense to send it in for repair.

Haven't seen any of these threads. From our experience, people put in the O-Ring in the extractor. The over tensioning tends to cause more problems than it fixes.

Generally, the error (if there is one) is either a stupid user trick (bad ammo, O-ring, no lube, do not clean chamber, etc). So yes, they should pay for shipping. If the error was on BCM's part, then they should cover shipping.

All BCM guns and BCG's are test fired. So they work when they leave the factory.

C4

Kdubya

03-20-17, 13:19

Link?

Official Kremlin Transmission

Try this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?194637-Help-me-troubleshoot-FTE-(eject)-please&p=2466903#post2466903). The link will take you to the most recent thread. In my post you'll then find a hyperlink to the other recent thread. There are also comments in each thread referencing the BCM extractor/ejector issue on a larger scale.

Kdubya

03-20-17, 13:22

Haven't seen any of these threads. From our experience, people put in the O-Ring in the extractor. The over tensioning tends to cause more problems than it fixes.

Generally, the error (if there is one) is either a stupid user trick (bad ammo, O-ring, no lube, do not clean chamber, etc). So yes, they should pay for shipping. If the error was on BCM's part, then they should cover shipping.

All BCM guns and BCG's are test fired. So they work when they leave the factory.

C4

See post #63 above.

Also, in both instances I believe the O-Ring was not being used in the problem BCGs.

ETA: So if a gun/component is test fired at the factory it's guaranteed to function. Does that apply to any mfg? Because just about every AR in the market would qualify.

C4IGrant

03-20-17, 14:06

See post #63 above.

Also, in both instances I believe the O-Ring was not being used in the problem BCGs.

ETA: So if a gun/component is test fired at the factory it's guaranteed to function. Does that apply to any mfg? Because just about every AR in the market would qualify.

In the one thread that I read, there wasn't sufficient trouble shooting done. For instance, you take the BCG and shoot it in a gun you know runs. While it could be an over tension spring, some of the components in those "home builds" are suspect in my book.

Most AR manufacturers do not test fire their BCG's. We are also not talking about just the ONE proof round.

C4

Nfd538

03-20-17, 14:11

I can't speak to BCMs bolt failure rate, however if my five buddies had BCMs and one had a defective bolt I would say it is 20% among my friends.

It's just math.

Yup that sounds about right

Sipank96

03-20-17, 14:35

20% bolt failure rate.

Seems legit.

lol just because 1 out of 5 came defective in from the factory, automatically there's a 20% failure rate, sure. I've shot all 5 of them and they work just fine. That 1 bolt was an isolated case and he just got unlucky.

scooter22

03-20-17, 15:51

I can't speak to BCMs bolt failure rate, however if my five buddies had BCMs and one had a defective bolt I would say it is 20% among my friends.

It's just math.

Sample size of 5.

Statistically significant?

Official Kremlin Transmission

556BlackRifle

03-20-17, 18:06

Have your BIL watch this video. Grant shot it in Vegas and liked it. (Won the pepper popper comp with it too.) Hopefully he'll chime in.

ETA: This should come in very close to his price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ZyhVJ39q4

websniper

03-20-17, 20:39

In the one thread that I read, there wasn't sufficient trouble shooting done. For instance, you take the BCG and shoot it in a gun you know runs. While it could be an over tension spring, some of the components in those "home builds" are suspect in my book.

Most AR manufacturers do not test fire their BCG's. We are also not talking about just the ONE proof round.

C4

What further troubleshooting do you suggest? I posted pretty much my full parts list as well. I'm not fortunate enough to have a whole bin of extractors and springs to try to see if it resolves the problem I'm having, so I asked the mfg to take a look.

I'd think throwing a known functional bolt in the gun and getting the expected functionality was sufficient to indicate a problem with the BCG, but that's why I came here for recommendations. Even IG suggested contacting the mfg...

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MegademiC

03-20-17, 20:49

556BlackRifle

03-20-17, 21:04

What further troubleshooting do you suggest? I posted pretty much my full parts list as well. I'm not fortunate enough to have a whole bin of extractors and springs to try to see if it resolves the problem I'm having, so I asked the mfg to take a look.

I'd think throwing a known functional bolt in the gun and getting the expected functionality was sufficient to indicate a problem with the BCG, but that's why I came here for recommendations. Even IG suggested contacting the mfg...

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This thread is drifting off topic..... Why not start a dedicated thread regarding the issues that you are seeing so we help figure out the best course of action to follow? If you already have started a thread, bump it up to the top and we'll see what we can do to help.

Kdubya

03-20-17, 21:31

Malfunctions are ussually a combination of things lining up. We have what looks like a few parts not running properly. They very well could have tested ok at the factory and maybe there were a few out of spec parts that snuck through. Thats why you need to verify function before trusting any machine. HI point to KAC. At this point, it doesn't look like anything systematic (systemic?).

Anyways, back on topic, I feel we are drifting.

Amen to that. I've made that same point many times in various threads. Nothing is literally gtg. Always heed the words of Ronald Reagan.

Also, my vote is for "systemic". Just the word choice. We have a loooooong ways to go before even considering it to be a general problem or cause for concern.

C4IGrant

03-21-17, 09:54

What further troubleshooting do you suggest? I posted pretty much my full parts list as well. I'm not fortunate enough to have a whole bin of extractors and springs to try to see if it resolves the problem I'm having, so I asked the mfg to take a look.

I'd think throwing a known functional bolt in the gun and getting the expected functionality was sufficient to indicate a problem with the BCG, but that's why I came here for recommendations. Even IG suggested contacting the mfg...

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That's ok. Those are wear parts (and cheap) so always have spares of the ejector spring and extractor spring. Nothing wrong with having the manufacturer look at it.

It is possible that the spring tension was just to high (trapping the case). When BCM sends it back, see what they say.

C4

noonesshowmonkey

03-21-17, 11:13

I can't speak to BCMs bolt failure rate, however if my five buddies had BCMs and one had a defective bolt I would say it is 20% among my friends.

It's just math.

Bruh, we all know you don't have five friends...

Quit trying to use wizardry here.

SiGfever

03-21-17, 15:44

Today is definitely a buyer's market. There are several good choices under $800 for an AR. Even though most of use would like a KAC quality rifle, a lot of our usage will never justify it. Starter AR, I still stand by the AR6720 as a great start, spend the extra on ammo and training. JMO

sliver_back

03-21-17, 16:00

The ruger ar 556 or smith and Wesson sport are great starter ar and in the 500 price range.

RetroRevolver77

03-21-17, 16:39

Here you go OP, brand new Colt 6920 for $799.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/629521805

RadScorpius

03-22-17, 17:14

No reason to buy anything else when barebones Colt can be had for $750.

RetroRevolver77

03-23-17, 10:37

No reason to buy anything else when barebones Colt can be had for $750.

I agree.

All my AR's are Colt with Knight's RAS standard rails with exception of one upper with the RIS II rail.

7n6

Slater

03-23-17, 10:58

RadScorpius

03-23-17, 11:14

I agree.

All my AR's are Colt with Knight's RAS standard rails with exception of one upper with the RIS II rail.

7n6

I'm about the same, I do plan on adding LMT to the collection, I like their improved M4 that the US military didn't get for budget reasons.

26 Inf

03-23-17, 13:42

I just happened across this while researching Bison Barrels (they have their barrels made by shat and white oak) starting at $795.00

http://www.ershawbarrels.com/ar15/

Kdubya

03-23-17, 15:48

Heck, you could always try the new, improved, Alabama-manufactured Bushmaster :D. According to their latest catalog, their carbines feature 4150 CMV chrome-lined barrels, M16 bolt carriers, HPT/MPI bolts, staked castle nuts, etc.

They've actually been using 4150 Chrome Lined for years in about 90% of their product line. Although, I believe they went with 4150 Nitride in the new "Minimalist SD". Also a few of their varmint models use 416. BCGs also switched over to M16, but that was more recent (within the past 3-5 years maybe). They MPI and Eddy Current test. I'm not 100% certain on HPT. I do know they source their BCGs from Toolcraft, and they're staked well. I'm not sure when they started staking Castle Nuts, but they are doing it now. Personally I think the lack of staking is overstated, and people here have commented on their CNs being a PITA to get off. FSB are forged and use taper pins. I haven't measured the gas port, and people say they're over gassed. But in the Lucky Gunner 10k round torture test they ran 4 Bushmaster rifles and reported that each port measured .058", which would actually be on the low end.

I know they're one of the favorite whipping boys for some, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I own an XM15 M4A3, and it's been flawless. I know others who own them as well, and also have been pleased. They're generally quite accurate and cycle everything. They tried to do something innovative with the Carbon 15, and it had some issues. I think that most of the time they're judged based upon that "flop", and the remainder of their product line is not given a fair evaluation.

I'm sure people will continue to call them trash and act as though they aren't worth their weight in scrap. That's fine. They were good enough for Blackwater. Served Travis Haley well. So, while arguments could be made that they are not the absolute pinnacle of ARs, the assertion that they're garbage is much more preposterous. My rifle apparently didn't get the message that it should have failed 5,000 rounds ago. And I know I'm not alone in that regard.

Scrubber3

03-24-17, 09:32

They've actually been using 4150 Chrome Lined for years in about 90% of their product line. Although, I believe they went with 4150 Nitride in the new "Minimalist SD". Also a few of their varmint models use 416. BCGs also switched over to M16, but that was more recent (within the past 3-5 years maybe). They MPI and Eddy Current test. I'm not 100% certain on HPT. I do know they source their BCGs from Toolcraft, and they're staked well. I'm not sure when they started staking Castle Nuts, but they are doing it now. Personally I think the lack of staking is overstated, and people here have commented on their CNs being a PITA to get off. FSB are forged and use taper pins. I haven't measured the gas port, and people say they're over gassed. But in the Lucky Gunner 10k round torture test they ran 4 Bushmaster rifles and reported that each port measured .058", which would actually be on the low end.

I know they're one of the favorite whipping boys for some, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I own an XM15 M4A3, and it's been flawless. I know others who own them as well, and also have been pleased. They're generally quite accurate and cycle everything. They tried to do something innovative with the Carbon 15, and it had some issues. I think that most of the time they're judged based upon that "flop", and the remainder of their product line is not given a fair evaluation.

I'm sure people will continue to call them trash and act as though they aren't worth their weight in scrap. That's fine. They were good enough for Blackwater. Served Travis Haley well. So, while arguments could be made that they are not the absolute pinnacle of ARs, the assertion that they're garbage is much more preposterous. My rifle apparently didn't get the message that it should have failed 5,000 rounds ago. And I know I'm not alone in that regard.

I agree that they aren't AS bad as some folks believe. Here's the thing: They typically cost MORE than rifles that are built with better QC and better parts.

williejc

03-24-17, 10:33

Academy Sports has a long list of AR's from top to bottom including Savage's offerings. I predict that Walmart will get back into this game. Essentially we are seeing the beginning of dumping product in an already soft market. Guys with AR collections already know that they are losing value. Said another way, prices of used top tier ARs will become disturbingly low. If I were a young man(I ain't), I would not blow money(already did)on a low end AR.

I enjoy reading the AR threads. I admit being less informed on the subject than everybody else here. That said, I'm surprised that we have a thread on low end AR's for general use. Our mindset has always been on buying the best that we can afford. In a sense buying a cheaper AR today may not be a wise investment, Today's cheap price will soon become tomorrow's super soft cheaper price. So buying a low end AR tomorrow for 1/2 of today's cheap price may be the way to go.

The above idea is an observation and not a criticism. General use for some might be a gun that would spend years on tractors and in pickup truck tool boxes. In my part of the world, AR's have replaced 30-30 lever guns for this purpose. Another might be a less valuable firearm for a kid. Another may be a project for tinkering.

bloodlord77

03-24-17, 22:14

That LW 6720 is next on my list, and what I would recommend.

Slater

03-25-17, 12:40

Kdubya

03-25-17, 13:34

I bought a Bushy Plain-Jane A2 HBAR back in 2007 for $780 (before tax). I've seen the same model for sale online for $750. Adjusted for inflation (using the online calculator), that $780 Bushmaster would be $916 nowadays. So in relative terms that particular gun is considerably cheaper than a decade ago. Seems odd.

At face value, that would seem a little odd. But, ARs are a bit of anomaly when it comes to drawing conclusions based upon economic principles and larger market trends. There was a point in time, think sandy hook era, where that rifle was probably going for $1000-$1500. Everyone was panicked, and gun retailers could get away with some pretty high premiums.

With the 2016 election, mfgs and retailers were positioning themselves for the potential of another panic. Fortunately, we dodged that bullet. But, the industry is now saturated with back-stock in a soft market. Cutting prices to razor thin profit margins is probably not what sellers want to do, but it's really the only way to move inventory. As a consumer, I won't complain :)

Locutus

03-26-17, 08:49

...

I'm sure people will continue to call them trash and act as though they aren't worth their weight in scrap. That's fine. They were good enough for Blackwater. Served Travis Haley well. So, while arguments could be made that they are not the absolute pinnacle of ARs, the assertion that they're garbage is much more preposterous. My rifle apparently didn't get the message that it should have failed 5,000 rounds ago. And I know I'm not alone in that regard.

They still are. I just attended the AR-15/M-16 Armorer's Course at Academi (formerly Blackwater) earlier this month. Their armory is stocked with BMs and that's what we used in the course. I've never owned one, but I know that they put them through Hell there at the Academi compound.

Kdubya

03-26-17, 12:53

They still are. I just attended the AR-15/M-16 Armorer's Course at Academi (formerly Blackwater) earlier this month. Their armory is stocked with BMs and that's what we used in the course. I've never owned one, but I know that they put them through Hell there at the Academi compound.

Good to know, and I appreciate the insight. If Bushmaster were as awful as they're made out to be here, there is no way Blackwater/Academi would still be running them all these years. I'd imagine that their rifles see more abuse than most civilians would ever throw at them. Blackwater also is likely to have far more flexibility in what firearms they choose than the military. So it's not insignificant that they've stuck with Bushy rifles.

Was it a good course overall? Did you get to do any shooting or was it strictly gunsmithing?

26 Inf

03-26-17, 14:44

Good to know, and I appreciate the insight. If Bushmaster were as awful as they're made out to be here, there is no way Blackwater/Academi would still be running them all these years. I'd imagine that their rifles see more abuse than most civilians would ever throw at them. Blackwater also is likely to have far more flexibility in what firearms they choose than the military. So it's not insignificant that they've stuck with Bushy rifles.

Was it a good course overall? Did you get to do any shooting or was it strictly gunsmithing?

I'm generally not any particular brand's fanboy or anti-fanboy, but from my experience Bushmaster is questionable based on two experiences:

1) I was putting a local team through a select-fire rifle course because they had new safe/semi/auto Bushmasters. During the first range session (semi-auto) they started having fail to eject double feeds. These were brand new rifles, some of them had never been fired. At the time we did not have loaners or a significant parts supply so this was a big deal. They agency called Bushmaster, told them what the deal was and Bushmaster over-nighted them new bolts. Problem solved. At the time I thought it was strange they would send out new bolts so quickly, but as you will see, I didn't know what I didn't know....

2) Several years later I attend my first 'real' non-factory AR armorers course. The instructor/owner is well-known on these forums. During the course this gentleman related that a manufacturer had contracted with him to conduct both armorer and rifle instructor training to a fairly large metropolitan agency. During this training a couple of QC problems became apparent with the rifles. During the AAR of the course to the manufacturer the contractor (instructor giving this course) told the manufacturer about the problems and suggested fixes. Essentially he was told that adding the fix to the manufacturing/assembly process would take time and therefore cost money. The company told him they'd fix the problems under warranty because the average owner only fired about a 100 rounds a year and wouldn't have the problems he was wanting them to correct. I later found the company was Bushmaster.

Speaking to the Academi's, nee US Training's, nee Blackwater's usage of Bushmaster, it makes sense that if they are giving Bushmaster Armor courses they are using Bushmasters. They have a longstanding relationship with Bushmaster, going back at least twelve years that I know of. Obviously their armorers could take care of any QC issues, as could any competent armorer with any brand.

I attended a couple of armorer course with them when they were U.S. Training, a gentleman named Charles Slocum or Sloan was the instructor. Very, very knowledgeable.

The trend I've seen in manufacturers armorer courses over the years is less gunsmithing as most folks understand the term, i.e. handfitting, stoning, and more troubleshooting, parts replacing. Largely, I'm sure, due to liability and time constraints.

Locutus

03-26-17, 14:52