View Full Version : If they aren't here legally, he wont teach them....
Averageman
03-10-17, 11:27
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/34701549/campbell-high-school-teacher-if-they-are-here-in-the-usillegally-i-wont-teach-them
A Campbell High School teacher is facing heat after saying in an email to faculty members that he would refuse to teach the children of those in the United States illegally.
He was scheduled to meet with the school's principal Wednesday.
Hawaii News Now obtained a copy of the email, which was sent Wednesday morning. The full text of the email reads:
“This is another attack on the President over deportation. Their parents need to apply for immigration like everyone else. If they are here in the US illegally, I won't teach them."”
I'm rather interested on how you determine which of your students is here illegally?
I can however sympathize with someone teaching in an overcrowded classroom and being forced to teach those who shouldn't be sitting in those desks. Many of these kids from my experience are going to be a distraction to others around them.
I'm guessing if you did this in Texas 20% of the students in some places would be out of the door immediately.
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 12:18
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 12:22
If there are here illegally, they are not entitled to a free education in America's schools.
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 12:30
If there (THEY) are here illegally, they are not entitled to a free education in America's schools.
That's fine and dandy, but it's still the fault of the parents, not the child. Depriving the children (of what we jokingly call) a proper education is the wrong way to look at the world. There is no reason these kids can't becoming upstanding US citizens. What is the laws currently on children of illegal immigrants being born here? I remember hearing they used to be completely immune from deportations.
Averageman
03-10-17, 12:39
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
I don't know if his point is to "punish" anyone.
Based upon other links to this story he would appear to be a retired Marine Colonel. I'm guessing he has just reached the end of his rope dealing with kids who don't want to be there, parents who don't give a damn and a Administration that is very likely filled with Socialist Progressive SJW's.
If you've got 10% more students than a classroom can hold and 20% of them aren't here legally, you too might be asking yourself "Why?"
Some of the folks here illegally aren't sending their kids to school anymore because the "Left" has convinced them the ICE Agents will be there to collect them up for deportation.
So who is "punishing" who?
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 12:42
I don't know if his point is to "punish" anyone.
Based upon other links to this story he would appear to be a retired Marine Colonel. I'm guessing he has just reached the end of his rope dealing with kids who don't want to be there, parents who don't give a damn and a Administration that is very likely filled with Socialist Progressive SJW's.
If you've got 10% more students than a classroom can hold and 20% of them aren't here legally, you too might be asking yourself "Why?"
Some of the folks here illegally aren't sending their kids to school anymore because the "Left" has convinced them the ICE Agents will be there to collect them up for deportation.
So who is "punishing" who?
You're correct, punishment was not the correct term. Depriving is a better word for what I am described.
Deport illegals. Exercise national sovereignty and establish a moratorium on all immigration for 30 years. Disestablish the public indoctrination system and let people shop for educational alternatives the way we shop for everything else. (Adam Smith, anyone?).
But like the Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz, to do that we'd need brains.
skywalkrNCSU
03-10-17, 12:59
Deport illegals. Exercise national sovereignty and establish a moratorium on all immigration for 30 years. Disestablish the public indoctrination system and let people shop for educational alternatives the way we shop for everything else. (Adam Smith, anyone?).
But like the Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz, to do that we'd need brains.
Congratulations, this is the worst idea I have heard all day
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum Broward County Schools has passed a resolution that prohibits Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers from performing raids or inquiring about the immigration status of students on school grounds.
http://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/broward-county-schools-votes-to-make-schools-immigration-safe-zones
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 13:04
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum Broward County Schools has passed a resolution that prohibits Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers from performing raids or inquiring about the immigration status of students on school grounds.
http://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/broward-county-schools-votes-to-make-schools-immigration-safe-zones
I feel like I'm actually okay with this. Shit could go sideways so fast if they raided a damn school.
Averageman
03-10-17, 13:08
I think if you are here illegally and you decided to bring your already born kids with you, you're the problem. The whole family needs to go home.
I think if you are here illegally and you had kids here, well you are still the problem. Your kids may be Citizen anchor babies, but it isn't their fault. The problem is Mom and Dad need to go home and yes, the kids need to go with them. Come back when you are 18 and reclaim your citizenship if you meet the standards.
I don't think it is fair to expect everyone else to give your kids a free ride through life as you game the system to live, work and prosper in a Country you committed a crime to enter.
I would guess, from my observations, that a number of these kids aren't getting a lot out of the public school experience.
I'm not sure exactly what the answer is, but what we are doing clearly isn't the answer.
I feel the Colonels pain, clearly this job isn't for him.
Averageman
03-10-17, 13:37
Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum Broward County Schools has passed a resolution that prohibits Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers from performing raids or inquiring about the immigration status of students on school grounds.
http://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/broward-county-schools-votes-to-make-schools-immigration-safe-zones
I have a feeling that the old saying "Sh*+ in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first" might apply here with this resolution.
What authority do they claim over a Federal Law Enforcement Agency and their duty to uphold the law?
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
While I don't necessarily disagree with regard to education, where do you draw the line with that statement? Should illegals receive welfare/foodstamps, because after all "it would hurt the children"?
Congratulations, this is the worst idea I have heard all day
Which part? Deport all illegals, or the rest of it?
I think if you are here illegally and you decided to bring your already born kids with you, you're the problem. The whole family needs to go home.
I think if you are here illegally and you had kids here, well you are still the problem. Your kids may be Citizen anchor babies, but it isn't their fault. The problem is Mom and Dad need to go home and yes, the kids need to go with them. Come back when you are 18 and reclaim your citizenship if you meet the standards.
I don't think it is fair to expect everyone else to give your kids a free ride through life as you game the system to live, work and prosper in a Country you committed a crime to enter.
I would guess, from my observations, that a number of these kids aren't getting a lot out of the public school experience.
I'm not sure exactly what the answer is, but what we are doing clearly isn't the answer.
I feel the Colonels pain, clearly this job isn't for him.
Pretty much my opinion of it. They talk about "dividing families"......boo-freaking-hoo. The kids can go back with you, and if they were born here can come back (without you) when they're ready. But you will NEVER come back. If you were a good parent you'd take your kids with you, but if you aren't they'll be put into foster care. Those are your choices Senor Illegal.
I'm sure if I dropped my precious little darling off at a school in Mexico they would trip over themselves to give him the highest level of courtesy and edification.
Or they'd beat his ass, take all his money and his shoes, and leave him on the side of the road.
People hiding behind children is a chump move. Nobody asked you to fornicate, drop a puppy, and then hold the rest of us morally hostage because "I'm da baby! Gotta love me!".
In fact we'd prefer you didn't.
skywalkrNCSU
03-10-17, 13:45
Which part? Deport all illegals, or the rest of it?
Pretty much everything but the deport all illegals
Coal Dragger
03-10-17, 13:56
Deport the kids first. They show up to school, ICE nabs them. Then the parents will self deport to go to their kids.
Genius!
I feel like I'm actually okay with this. Shit could go sideways so fast if they raided a damn school.
Yeah, they might get rid of the dopers and gangs and kids might be in danger of learning something in peace.
If you mean crossfires and so forth.
I got a plan. Get the goon squad dressed up in MC black and ballistic masks to hide in the closets. Then when everybody is coming into homeroom all sleepy and "too cool fo' dis shit, esse" then they all jump out all at once going "SURPRISE, VATOS! LA MIGRA ESTA AQUI!! NYAHAHAHAAaa!"
Everyone would shit themselves and all the regular kids could have a good laugh as these crying mopes were being lead out of school single file in the prisoner position to prison busses and paddy wagons.
And to calm the tits of the triggered, make the rest of the day movie day where everyone gets to watch Deadpool WITHOUT a parents note.
Possibly a pizza party
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:00
Next thing you know they will open the smoking area back up that was right outside the Shop Class.
Coal Dragger
03-10-17, 14:01
Hopefully the pizza party would be the non pedo kind?
Hopefully the pizza party would be the non pedo kind?
In my day a school pizza party was the best thing ever.
Now the pervs have ruined that too
You're correct, punishment was not the correct term. Depriving is a better word for what I am described.
What is the origin of debt? So you deport the parents. It's not my fault home-slice is here illegally why should I pay?
What's different if he's here or still in Mali?
In my day a school pizza party was the best thing ever.
Now the pervs have ruined that too
1st I've heard of this. Explain please? I just can't see what this could mean.
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:16
Honestly, I believe Substitute Teaching ought to be done much like a jury pool.
Every Citizen Taxpayer should see how these things work and why your money is being spent in certain area's. I think if it worked that way we would have dismantled the Teachers Unions, the Teachers State funded retirement system and people would get vouchers. We would be seeing charter and private school options opening up.
The uproar would be astounding.
You're correct, punishment was not the correct term. Depriving is a better word for what I am described.
Depriving?
Nobody would be depriving. If anybody, their parents would be the ones depriving them with their actions. Still, their parents are free to seek private education for them or go back to their home countries. Criminals in our society are not entitled to the fruits of my labor.
If we keep incentivizing illegal actions, we will get more illegal actions.
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1st I've heard of this. Explain please? I just can't see what this could mean.
There was a thread on it before it got retarded. IIRC some chuck e cheese or whatever in VA was being used to allegedly traffic kids to perverts.
To this day, never got a straight, verifiable answer on it
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 14:19
Yeah, they might get rid of the dopers and gangs and kids might be in danger of learning something in peace.
If you mean crossfires and so forth.
I got a plan. Get the goon squad dressed up in MC black and ballistic masks to hide in the closets. Then when everybody is coming into homeroom all sleepy and "too cool fo' dis shit, esse" then they all jump out all at once going "SURPRISE, VATOS! LA MIGRA ESTA AQUI!! NYAHAHAHAAaa!"
Everyone would shit themselves and all the regular kids could have a good laugh as these crying mopes were being lead out of school single file in the prisoner position to prison busses and paddy wagons.
And to calm the tits of the triggered, make the rest of the day movie day where everyone gets to watch Deadpool WITHOUT a parents note.
Possibly a pizza party
Funny it was never the minorities slinging dope or discussing gang shit when I was in school, but a ton can change in 10 years. Us honkeys had the extracurricular slinging handled. Meth makes the world go round.
Actions have consequences. Blame the parents. Their action put the children in this situation.
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Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 14:20
That's fine and dandy, but it's still the fault of the parents, not the child. Depriving the children (of what we jokingly call) a proper education is the wrong way to look at the world. There is no reason these kids can't becoming upstanding US citizens. What is the laws currently on children of illegal immigrants being born here? I remember hearing they used to be completely immune from deportations.
Not talking about punishing...just deportation. If the parents are here illegally and bring their kids, what gives the illegal alien kids the right to a free U.S. education? Would my kids get a free, quality education if I sneaked into mexico illegally and sent my kids to school there?
Who is being deprived when the child of an illegal is punted from school and deported? Is it the child nobody owes a thing to? Is it the tax payer's child who has to deal with overcrowding, no hablo inglez, peers who are academically behind...? Who is truly being deprived of their right to a quality education?
Being a naturalized citizen I am 100% in favor of legal immigration. I'm also in favor of setting up a streamlined process to bring in all those hard working folks wanting to assimilate. So long as we keep out the criminals, the la Raza/ Atzlan who have no intention to assimilate. I want every person willing to work to make this country better in here ASAFP. I'd even set up a trade program. 1 roofer for every dozen welfare rats. Fair enough.
What I don't want are folks coming here illegally, not paying taxes, not assimilating and taking out of the system. We owe criminals NOTHING.
Children born here as citizens can go back with their criminal parents and return as adults when they reach whatever age we allow entry ( no clue what that is today). Id even support allowing illegals to adopt out their kids if they want to. We owe criminals NOTHING.
IMO the reason why districts don't want ICE in their business is the same reason why we take attendance at 10:30AM instead of after first bell. Same reason why districts are against suspending trouble makers. MONEY. Change the rules that districts only get paid for citizens or legal residents and they would gladly round up all the illegals themselves.
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:40
Not talking about punishing...just deportation. If the parents are here illegally and bring their kids, what gives the illegal alien kids the right to a free U.S. education? Would my kids get a free, quality education if I sneaked into mexico illegally and sent my kids to school there?
Very good point.
There have been a few threads here over the years that point out how Mexico deals with illegals and if I remember correctly on the whole, it was pretty damned ugly.
I would guess you could even say the Mexican Government have been, if not working with, at least ignoring many who have traveled through their country to get to ours. The problem becomes, "their crimes" become our tax burden.
Yes I have sympathy, but it has a limit and that limit is not unlike what happens to the children of our own home grown criminals. If you screwed up and both parents are in prison, where do those children go?
Averageman
03-10-17, 14:50
IMO the reason why districts don't want ICE in their business is the same reason why we take attendance at 10:30AM instead of after first bell. Same reason why districts are against suspending trouble makers. MONEY. Change the rules that districts only get paid for citizens or legal residents and they would gladly round up all the illegals themselves.
The money for "English as a Second Language" and kids determined to be "Emotionally Disturbed" seems to be tied to Special Education programs. These are bigger money makers for the districts than your average run of the mill students because there is extra Federal Funding.
So the Schools are making more money for an illegal immigrants non English speaking kid. As far as I could tell being labeled "Emotionally Disturbed" for the most part meant you had some interaction with the legal system. Johnny has an ankle monitor for a felony he committed, yup he's "Emotionally Disturbed" alright.
Then they make sure and "Mainstream" these kids in to your kids classroom insuring the whole thing is near chaos and a difficult environment to learn and teach in.
I feel like I'm actually okay with this. Shit could go sideways so fast if they raided a damn school.
I think left alone ICE has better things to do than go grab Jose out of algebra class. Unless he's dealing heroin or something serious, it just won't happen. My problem is the school board, thinking they have the authority to tell Federal law enforcement that they cannot enforce laws or investigations on school property.
It's a massive overstep.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 15:16
I think left alone ICE has better things to do than go grab Jose out of algebra class. Unless he's dealing heroin or something serious, it just won't happen. My problem is the school board, thinking they have the authority to tell Federal law enforcement that they cannot enforce laws or investigations on school property.
It's a massive overstep.
Why should tax dollars from hard working Americans go to support jose? Dump him back across the border and let mexico feed him....
Averageman
03-10-17, 15:32
I think left alone ICE has better things to do than go grab Jose out of algebra class. Unless he's dealing heroin or something serious, it just won't happen. My problem is the school board, thinking they have the authority to tell Federal law enforcement that they cannot enforce laws or investigations on school property.
It's a massive overstep.
At the same time you and I are agreeing on this the Socialist Progressives are scaring the crap out of the illegals by telling them ICE will do just that. So now they are keeping their kids home and out of school. That is only going to make the situation worse all the way around, essentially they are guaranteeing these kids will fail if they don't go to school and probably become an even bigger future burden.
Hell we are so divided on this issue that we have judges in the N.W. sneaking illegals with DUI's out the back of the courthouse so ICE can't nab them.
Trump has been pretty clear about who he is going after and as of late there are many less crossing over to get here. No one is being yanked off of the streets to be deported unless they have some serious stuff on their records.
Funny it was never the minorities slinging dope or discussing gang shit when I was in school, but a ton can change in 10 years. Us honkeys had the extracurricular slinging handled. Meth makes the world go round.
First off
That was a good plan, made better if the cue was the Benny Hill theme.
In MY day, nobody was innocent. Whiteboys had coke and pills. Julios had meth and dust, and black dudes did weed and maaaaaybe the super shady slung crack. Crack was looked down on and nobody was brave or rich enough for heroin.
Me personally, I went to an all black but me and 20 other assholes school and everybody was more into weed or steroids if they played sports (and usually their dad or coach got it for them)
I was straight edge because A.) if I did drugs my dad would've stomped me in a manner not dissimilar to Snorkel stomping Beetle.
and
B) I just wanted to put my head down and graduate. It was literally like High School High at times. I remember lockdowns and cops bringing in dogs. I recall seeing the occasional tackling and magliting by the school police. And at times it felt like everybody had a gun but me.
So, no. I respectfully disagree. These kids are not special and maybe they need to see some reality.
I'd love to tell you I had this great white High School life where they had country music proms with HS sweethearts and punching the V card in the back of a chevy truck down by the lake after the school Pep Rally where it was the best years of my life.
NEGATIVE.
It felt like prison, I was constantly under a microscope, and it was super hard to avoid the thug and gang BS.
I remember on one of my mix tapes I had Skid Row's 18 and Life and that's what it felt like.
So....I just dont feel sorry for these people. It was way harder for me than it ever would be for them.
If cards need to be pulled over being illegal then pull em all.
Race is irrelevant. It's an unnecessary burden no other country assumes.
And for the record, there were several murders linked to my school in that era. All over drugs. A lot of black on latino and black on black. And they were harder on the latinos. Most people dunno what I am and getting confused for the wrong thing garnered the wrong attention.
So maybe getting these dreamers outvmight actually be doing them a favor.
Whatever, I dont have kids and I'm at the point where wgat happens, happens.
You're a good guy, Willis. But my experiences both adolescent and otherwise have darkened my outlook on some topics.
Also.....FWIW, EVERYBODY hated the rich white boys with the cars and the Tommy Hilfiger
Why should tax dollars from hard working Americans go to support jose? Dump him back across the border and let mexico feed him....
Because there are bigger fish?
If you were a good parent you'd take your kids with you
Honestly, not sure what I'd do in that situation, in most circumstances they would be better off remaining in the good old U. S. of A. It's not like your random illegal is going back to a life of success, etc.
but if you aren't they'll be put into foster care. Those are your choices Senor Illegal.
I know that is just rhetoric, the foster care system is already overloaded. I suppose we could reenact the orphan trains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_Train (I was on a motorcycle ramble last summer and stopped in at the Orphan Train Museum in Concordia, KS, they put a better spin on it than the stuff I read after I got back home LOL)
The massive problem with illegal immigrants is our own fault. If you look at it from "MY" perspective it is a failure of the most simple economic principles of the free market.
The demand for affordably priced produce far outstripped the pool of laborers willing to enter the market at what the growers wanted to (or could) pay and still remain profitable. Thus, the seasonal migrant worker was welcomed with open arms.
At the same time the farming industry was rapidly evolving. A farmer required more land under production to make a living. Farm families were shrinking and farm children were leaving the farm as they reached adulthood. Their parents were living longer and splitting the farm up for several families just meant several families living hand to mouth. Modern farming practices didn't eliminate the demand for some farm labor, but the profit margins most farmers were operating on necessitated cheap labor and that labor was often named Juan.
The same thing occurred in the meatpacking industry, who's thoroughly unenjoyable jobs have always attracted the most recent immigrants.
'We' (federal government) turned our back to illegal immigrants for decades because the labor was needed for jobs most American's wouldn't do at the wages paid. The hue and cry over the last decade has been because more and more businesses are maximizing profit by moving illegals into jobs once occupied by American workers.
Don't get me wrong, we need to get on top of the illegal immigrant problem, but let's be real, if there was no demand, the problem wouldn't be as real.
The other reality is that if we were successful at deporting them all, things would be a shit sandwich for a while, food prices would rise and not too many roads would get built until we trained the millennials to work a shovel instead of a phone. (I added that for BH321 :D)
Just saying, everyone wants a now solution for a long brewing problem.
Fun fact, what hated President's administration deported more illegals than any other administration?
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 17:34
Not talking about punishing...just deportation. If the parents are here illegally and bring their kids, what gives the illegal alien kids the right to a free U.S. education? Would my kids get a free, quality education if I sneaked into mexico illegally and sent my kids to school there?
Mexico isn't considered "The land of opportunity". I'm not at odds whatsoever that anyone coming to this country needs to apply for citizenship, but we are talking about the US Government here. It *can* take anywhere from 2-10 years to become a citizen. Worth it? Absolutely, but we think the NFA waits are bad......
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 17:39
Honestly, not sure what I'd do in that situation, in most circumstances they would be better off remaining in the good old U. S. of A. It's not like your random illegal is going back to a life of success, etc.
I know that is just rhetoric, the foster care system is already overloaded. I suppose we could reenact the orphan trains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_Train (I was on a motorcycle ramble last summer and stopped in at the Orphan Train Museum in Concordia, KS, they put a better spin on it than the stuff I read after I got back home LOL)
The massive problem with illegal immigrants is our own fault. If you look at it from "MY" perspective it is a failure of the most simple economic principles of the free market.
The demand for affordably priced produce far outstripped the pool of laborers willing to enter the market at what the growers wanted to (or could) pay and still remain profitable. Thus, the seasonal migrant worker was welcomed with open arms.
At the same time the farming industry was rapidly evolving. A farmer required more land under production to make a living. Farm families were shrinking and farm children were leaving the farm as they reached adulthood. Their parents were living longer and splitting the farm up for several families just meant several families living hand to mouth. Modern farming practices didn't eliminate the demand for some farm labor, but the profit margins most farmers were operating on necessitated cheap labor and that labor was often named Juan.
The same thing occurred in the meatpacking industry, who's thoroughly unenjoyable jobs have always attracted the most recent immigrants.
'We' (federal government) turned our back to illegal immigrants for decades because the labor was needed for jobs most American's wouldn't do at the wages paid. The hue and cry over the last decade has been because more and more businesses are maximizing profit by moving illegals into jobs once occupied by American workers.
Don't get me wrong, we need to get on top of the illegal immigrant problem, but let's be real, if there was no demand, the problem wouldn't be as real.
The other reality is that if we were successful at deporting them all, things would be a shit sandwich for a while, food prices would rise and not too many roads would get built until we trained the millennials to work a shovel instead of a phone. (I added that for BH321 :D)
Just saying, everyone wants a now solution for a long brewing problem.
Fun fact, what hated President's administration deported more illegals than any other administration?
To expand on that, illegals work several agricultural and construction jobs that frankly. most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time. Tell a High school kid to go pick berries for minimum wage and wait for their reaction to tell you to go **** yourself. My family couldn't even get a hay crew last Summer in Montana for $15 an hour, plus lunch and gatorade. That was all my summers consisted of growing up.
I feel like I'm actually okay with this. Shit could go sideways so fast if they raided a damn school.
Yeah...but if the schools are accepting any federal money, they don't get to tell Uncle to F-off if ICE comes knocking. Usually, they are notifying the school the parent/parents are being deported. But hey, if they want to be dicks...
WickedWillis
03-10-17, 18:18
Yeah...but if the schools are accepting any federal money, they don't get to tell Uncle to F-off if ICE comes knocking. Usually, they are notifying the school the parent/parents are being deported. But hey, if they want to be dicks...
Right, and I understand that.
To expand on that, illegals work several agricultural and construction jobs that frankly. most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time. Tell a High school kid to go pick berries for minimum wage and wait for their reaction to tell you to go **** yourself. My family couldn't even get a hay crew last Summer in Montana for $15 an hour, plus lunch and gatorade. That was all my summers consisted of growing up.
Frankly I don't believe this is at all the norm. Just a repeated talking point.
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Sure. There is a whole special temporary agricultural worker visa that the US government provides 'cause no one wants those jobs, small construction businesses in the Midwest speak mostly Polish, and I can't wait until yard maintenance crews around here are staffed by tall blond Swedish babes instead of the usual contingent. I won't claim that I know the whole scope of this, but from what I've seen with my own eyes, it ain't a talking point.
Deport the kids first. They show up to school, ICE nabs them. Then the parents will self deport to go to their kids.
Genius!
Makes perfect sense to me, illegals are thieves, nothing more , when the ISIS/Al-Qaeda deep cover cells are activated
and start creating havoc American's will rue the ' we love everybody, and when they see that they will become reasonable,
enlightened and become just like us, and love us like they love themselves ' emotion !
I know that is just rhetoric, the foster care system is already overloaded. I suppose we could reenact the orphan trains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_Train (I was on a motorcycle ramble last summer and stopped in at the Orphan Train Museum in Concordia, KS, they put a better spin on it than the stuff I read after I got back home LOL)
The massive problem with illegal immigrants is our own fault. If you look at it from "MY" perspective it is a failure of the most simple economic principles of the free market.
The demand for affordably priced produce far outstripped the pool of laborers willing to enter the market at what the growers wanted to (or could) pay and still remain profitable. Thus, the seasonal migrant worker was welcomed with open arms.
At the same time the farming industry was rapidly evolving. A farmer required more land under production to make a living. Farm families were shrinking and farm children were leaving the farm as they reached adulthood. Their parents were living longer and splitting the farm up for several families just meant several families living hand to mouth. Modern farming practices didn't eliminate the demand for some farm labor, but the profit margins most farmers were operating on necessitated cheap labor and that labor was often named Juan.
The same thing occurred in the meatpacking industry, who's thoroughly unenjoyable jobs have always attracted the most recent immigrants.
'We' (federal government) turned our back to illegal immigrants for decades because the labor was needed for jobs most American's wouldn't do at the wages paid. The hue and cry over the last decade has been because more and more businesses are maximizing profit by moving illegals into jobs once occupied by American workers.
Don't get me wrong, we need to get on top of the illegal immigrant problem, but let's be real, if there was no demand, the problem wouldn't be as real.
The other reality is that if we were successful at deporting them all, things would be a shit sandwich for a while, food prices would rise and not too many roads would get built until we trained the millennials to work a shovel instead of a phone. (I added that for BH321 :D)
Just saying, everyone wants a now solution for a long brewing problem.
Fun fact, what hated President's administration deported more illegals than any other administration?
Whatever it takes. Please don't tell me the solution to it is to let the parents stay (?). C'mon.....I didn't advocate putting the kids in a concentration camp!
I agree 110% on the "de-magnetize America" for illegals thing. I know it would never fly, but these "kids" wanting loans for college (and some career adult leeches too) could be offered this menial labor to repay their debts. I'm dreaming I know, but a guy can wish can't he? Oh, and hire an illegal and face fines or even jail time for repeat offenses.
To expand on that, illegals work several agricultural and construction jobs that frankly. most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time. Tell a High school kid to go pick berries for minimum wage and wait for their reaction to tell you to go **** yourself. My family couldn't even get a hay crew last Summer in Montana for $15 an hour, plus lunch and gatorade. That was all my summers consisted of growing up.
Total load of shit.
I know a bunch of guys who will take any work for half of what most illegals can get working construction or agriculture. There are also still a bunch of kids in Iowa who detassle corn every year for less than minimum wage. Maybe it's just a Montana thing.
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
I know two bilingual educators here in New Mexico that have dreamer kids as students. Many of them who openly state that they neither want to naturalize nor assimilate in any way. In their minds, America is here for them, not the other way around. They know how the free money works and they intend to get every thing they feel entitled to. This attitude is absolutely because of their parents and the culture amongst the illegals in a sanctuary state.
Whatever it takes. Please don't tell me the solution to it is to let the parents stay (?). C'mon.....I didn't advocate putting the kids in a concentration camp!
You know, I really don't know. As I've said before, I kind of have a hard time getting real mad at someone who has had the balls to do what I hope I would be willing to do to make a better life for my family.
We need to deal with criminals immediately. But, I honestly feel before we go making any extraordinary effort to round up the average illegal, we need to make sure we have sealed the border, otherwise it just like bailing a boat without fixing the leak, we wont make any meaningful progress.
Singlestack Wonder
03-10-17, 20:12
I know two bilingual educators here in New Mexico that have dreamer kids as students. Many of them who openly state that they neither want to naturalize nor assimilate in any way. In their minds, America is here for them, not the other way around. They know how the free money works and they intend to get every thing they feel entitled to. This attitude is absolutely because of their parents and the culture amongst the illegals in a sanctuary state.
This is why mexico and the rest of the world is laughing at us....
Total load of shit.
I know a bunch of guys who will take any work for half of what most illegals can get working construction or agriculture. There are also still a bunch of kids in Iowa who detassle corn every year for less than minimum wage. Maybe it's just a Montana thing.
I disagree with you. First I believe you are overstating 'a bunch of guys' and 'half of what most illegals can get.'
Look at roofing crews in our area for an example, often several non-english speaking immigrants dropped off by white guy who periodically checks on them and resupplies them. Do you think he wouldn't hire English speakers who could legally drive the company truck and get supplies if he could get them for the same wage? I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, my son ran one of those crews for a roofing company out of Denver that chased hailstorms across the midwest.
As I've mentioned before, I have a friend who runs a smallish pipeline company, he e-verifies and all his workers have to speak rudimentary English. He has a couple hundred employees, predominantly Latino/Mexican/Hispanic (whatever the buzzword is this week) because, as he says 'the white boys cant keep up.' Once again, I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, this is direct from the employer's mouth.
Likewise, a drywall contractor I know had a verbal contract broken by a developer when another contractor came in with crews of immigrant sheet rockers and cut price on him. He had done one set of homes for the guy already and had been told he had the other job, but he couldn't compete with the other guy's crew on price.
That is where all the kickback is coming from - immigrants, legal and illegal, are taking jobs Americans are willing to do.
Before I retired our Academy completed a large building project, new driving course, new dormitory, and huge conference center. All the buildings are brick. It was a state contract job, so the construction company and all subs were vetted and legitimate. Virtually all the brick masons were Hispanic. Absolutely beautiful, true, walls. Those guys got their skills someplace. They didn't have near the hassle clearing the punch list that the contract on our last project, ten years prior had.
My sons both work union jobs at a paper mill. Entry level jobs are hot, humid and backbreaking. It also pays quite well. They often laugh about the number of guys who get jobs, show up, and on their first day have to go into the pit to clean up a mess at the front end of one of the mills, a lot of them don't come back the next day.
So, yes, I have to think that this: 'most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time' is at least partially the problem.
Weird, we've hired Mexican nationals to work at the house....they never showed up. Ended up hiring a hard-up white boy.
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Teachers are the lowest rung on the ladder in school districts and don't make policy. School boards make policy. If his action contradicts policy which he can't live with, then he should find another job with an organization he can support. There's no reason to single out kids. I put him in the nut category.
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-17, 02:14
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
You mean like punishing the tax payers for providing an education for them and their "free lunch" programs?
Moose-Knuckle
03-11-17, 02:21
This thread reminded me . . .
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3927/32989574120_2191e2fa8d_z.jpg
ditto they show up nab em hey parents come pick up your kids :) OK now the whole family is going back to your REAL home
its taking away from my kids !!! and my money and I do not believe in supporting criminals and rewarding criminal behavior
I love it when the libs cry and say they pay taxes ;) hahahahah sure with STOLEN SS numbers and ID would be the only way so even more criminal activity
I dont fault em for there country being a toilet full of diarrhea and them wanting to get out but do it legally !!!
I think I just want to show up to countries in Europe or Canada and not pay for my health care when I need it :) I am sure they would be like SURE come on in
get on some good welfare from Sweden and Canada and Australia and just hang out
I was disciplined when I was teaching in Los Angeles USD.
I had kids come right in who didn't even speak Spanish and I had to work with them.
Out school was once almost shut down due to a TB scare . We are a learn community school so that means the parents come in anytime they want and openly participate in the education process.
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I like the Australian plan; you want to move there, gr ed at. You also ne ed d to show proof you are com ionkng here to sponge off of social services.
To expand on that, illegals work several agricultural and construction jobs that frankly. most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time. Tell a High school kid to go pick berries for minimum wage and wait for their reaction to tell you to go **** yourself. My family couldn't even get a hay crew last Summer in Montana for $15 an hour, plus lunch and gatorade. That was all my summers consisted of growing up.
Sounds like how it works. If there are better opportunities, you need to pay more.
Of course federal handouts can screw the whole system up... but letting legals here because of that is a bull crap reason imo.
As much as I hate to quote Ann Coulter, she said it best.
We need to stop being the World's battered women's shelter.
We really do need some 'Me' time.
A lot of these Construction company's don't hire Julio because he is a humble and modest worker. It's so they don't have to pay taxes, insurance, workman's comp, etc. They skip to paying Julio under the table.
Lots of white boys do, in fact, do the same thing. Work under the table.
Yet Julio can dump his little darlings to get an education (or just hang out all day) and never pay a dime in taxes.
This "wistful dreamer" spiel must die.
Yes children are involved.
Sooooooooorry 'bout that. Nobody asked them to screw and drop some puppies then hold us morally hostage for their well being.
This is right up there with putting a box of kittens on someone's door, pushing the door bell and running away.
It's a chump move.
I've dealt with enough illegals over the years where they could have little Pablita crying tears of blood beseeching me to stay with signed proof she will be the next Virgin Mary and I would be all "Yawn. Get on the bus. Don't come back until your papers clear"
Call me a redneck call me whatever. But A) Nobody down there lies awake at night wondering if I am doing okay and
B) I've traveled a bit in my youth and aside from trying to bilk me in some tourist trap; I was very much seen as a second class person because I was American. Nobody kissed my ass. And everybody had some bullshit to say :Ach Ja, Vy do you perzekute your Prezident Klinton, ja? He only hat eine Mistress, ja? Ve do zat all ze time hier."
So it's true....there are only two Europe, those whose ass we kicked and those we saved and maybe we should have held an A-bomb for Berlin.
So screw Europe, Screw anything below the border, all your gods are a lie, and screw trees too while I'm here
I honestly don't believe that crap line about doing jobs Americans won't. It's total BS. Americans are given a choice. Work for min wage at a ball busting job or sit at home and get free $$. Heck all of the assholes with lone star cards at my local grocery store eat better than I do. On my ****ing dime. Screw that shit. If they were faced with the same choice the illegal was faced with: bust your balls or starve wanna bet they'd be picking rice or corn or grapefruit or whatever. And yes, I'm totally ok with letting the rest die.
Several industries are dependent on immigrant labor: construction, agriculture, poultry, and hotel/motel to name some. They squeal when immigrant numbers are down. Knowing what I know about young people, I really don't see many of them working on roofs in 100 degree plus heat or working in agricultural or poultry jobs. I make this observation after having spent 30 years as a teacher. I don't see any doing these jobs now.
Eurodriver
03-11-17, 13:06
As I've mentioned before, I have a friend who runs a smallish pipeline company, he e-verifies and all his workers have to speak rudimentary English. He has a couple hundred employees, predominantly Latino/Mexican/Hispanic (whatever the buzzword is this week) because, as he says 'the white boys cant keep up.' Once again, I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, this is direct from the employer's mouth.
What you've just described is an anecdote.
an·ec·dote
ˈanəkˌdōt/
noun
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
As a teacher myself, it's pretty spot on.
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Nothing being discussed here that wasn't visible on the horizon 30 years ago. But it was "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" 24/7/365. Cheap labor, diversity, and kind of funny. How do I know? I was there... Nobody wanted to hear the truth then, and they still resent the hell out of it. There are days when IDGAF, and other days when I still do.
Actually, I recall being a dumbass 16 yo shingling houses and helping run wire all summer for wopping 25 dollars a day. Like 0600 to sometimes 2000 hours. At a fixed 25 bucks a pop. After 2 months I felt like a millionaire.....and pissed it all away on Super Nintendo shit, CDs, and concert tickets. Plus it had more dignity than a burger joint.
Actually, it was fun.
Would a 40 yo man want to support a wife and 4 kids on 25 dollars a day? No.
But there are always people willing to work under the table. I remember one dude. Real quiet. Yes Ma'am No Ma'am. Yes Sir No Sir to everybody.
EVERYBODY. He was real skinny. Short hair. And on a break he'd quietly smoke and at lunch he'd sit by himself.
One day we were unspooling a lot of wire and being a kid I asked "Hey were you like in the Army or something? You seem so squared away and quiet."
He just looks up at me with them blue eyes and said "I was in prison. This is all I got. I'm keeping it."
I felt pretty small and never asked him anything again.
So yeah. Thinking only Mexicans are somehow magically worth a damn is a broad brush. In my youth I dealt with one Julio on one such affair and he was a pick up from a filling station and that was his first and last day. An actual retarded person would have been better.
He was always magically never around. He was always in the shithouse. And at the end of the day some wire strippers and a hammer were magically, mysteriously gone. He could miraculously understand perfect English one minute when people were openly discussing how big a pos he was but was also totally ignorant of the English language when asked to do the simplest of tasks.
So....yeah......funk all dat
To expand on that, illegals work several agricultural and construction jobs that frankly. most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time. Tell a High school kid to go pick berries for minimum wage and wait for their reaction to tell you to go **** yourself. My family couldn't even get a hay crew last Summer in Montana for $15 an hour, plus lunch and gatorade. That was all my summers consisted of growing up.
My summers consisted of that as well, and now I'd pay $15/hr to NOT have to do it.
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I disagree with you. First I believe you are overstating 'a bunch of guys' and 'half of what most illegals can get.'
Look at roofing crews in our area for an example, often several non-english speaking immigrants dropped off by white guy who periodically checks on them and resupplies them. Do you think he wouldn't hire English speakers who could legally drive the company truck and get supplies if he could get them for the same wage? I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, my son ran one of those crews for a roofing company out of Denver that chased hailstorms across the midwest.
As I've mentioned before, I have a friend who runs a smallish pipeline company, he e-verifies and all his workers have to speak rudimentary English. He has a couple hundred employees, predominantly Latino/Mexican/Hispanic (whatever the buzzword is this week) because, as he says 'the white boys cant keep up.' Once again, I'm not talking anecdotal evidence, this is direct from the employer's mouth.
Likewise, a drywall contractor I know had a verbal contract broken by a developer when another contractor came in with crews of immigrant sheet rockers and cut price on him. He had done one set of homes for the guy already and had been told he had the other job, but he couldn't compete with the other guy's crew on price.
That is where all the kickback is coming from - immigrants, legal and illegal, are taking jobs Americans are willing to do.
Before I retired our Academy completed a large building project, new driving course, new dormitory, and huge conference center. All the buildings are brick. It was a state contract job, so the construction company and all subs were vetted and legitimate. Virtually all the brick masons were Hispanic. Absolutely beautiful, true, walls. Those guys got their skills someplace. They didn't have near the hassle clearing the punch list that the contract on our last project, ten years prior had.
My sons both work union jobs at a paper mill. Entry level jobs are hot, humid and backbreaking. It also pays quite well. They often laugh about the number of guys who get jobs, show up, and on their first day have to go into the pit to clean up a mess at the front end of one of the mills, a lot of them don't come back the next day.
So, yes, I have to think that this: 'most American's are just too ****ing lazy to work at this day and time' is at least partially the problem.
I Manage a department of 50+ employees in manufacturing, and the company is the largest in the world for what we do. What you describe is EXACTLY my experience. Absolutely correct.
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What you've just described is an anecdote.
an·ec·dote
ˈanəkˌdōt/
noun
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
You are correct. I have always used the term anecdotal evidence to refer to unverified evidence, and the stories I related are ones of which I have first hand knowledge. Mea culpa.
So before I attack your generation for being a bunch of smartasses, not respectful of their elders, are you gen-x or a millennial? :p
SilverBullet432
03-11-17, 15:57
If the teacher has a problem teaching any kid period, then they are in the wrong profession. Simple as that..
Still trying to figure out why presumptions of Americans being lazy means we should foot the bill for criminals?
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If the teacher has a problem teaching any kid period, then they are in the wrong profession. Simple as that..
Not as simple as that.
Sure, we like to conjure up these mental images of our educators as being like Socrates or Mr. Feeny. Occasionally, maybe even like the hippie teacher from Head of the Class.
And we further like to conjure up images of bright eyed youngsters who are sponges thirsting for knowledge. Like they are the kids from Saved by the Bell.
NOPE.
I used to be a teenybopper. I've seen it.
Some big fat ass 400lb black boy intimidating some female teacher "Duh....Coach said I's bes needing a C
So Ah's better get a C". Or the beating of teachers and the occasional shanking. Same with little buster browns trying to thug out the school and little Ese's trying to out thug buster brown.
And these poor people don't get paid enough to get punched out or stabbed because they ran afoul of some dipshit too cool to be in school.
I remember an old black teacher I had back when they still had faculty smoke pits. This ol' gal was so old, she came over on the Mayflower. She smoked filterless and looked like Aunt Jemima but sounded like the froggiest, growliest Drill Sergeant ever.
I regard her as a defining watermark of influence in my youth. She is likely dead and gone now, but she did say this.
"Your parents need to beat y'all today so the cops don't have to shoot y'all tomorrow!"
And she meant it.
A less impressive old white egghead teacher in high school said that he'd sooner they build more jails than schools so all the decent kids could learn, the fools could be locked up, and job opportunities for turnkeys.
And they were right.
A lot of these kids are bastards. Drive around on a school day. You will see kids at 10 a.m. walking everywhere BUT toward a school.
Quit applying Joe Churchgoer, whitebread, every kid needs a chance standards to reality.
What a lot of young people need is the holy hell beaten out of them, tossed in a tiger cage naked, have ice water thrown on them at night, and after a week ask if them if they'd like to open a book and lay off the goddamn weed.
Know who gets a bum rap?
Puerto Ricans.
No shit, Puerto Ricans. People act like it's not in America. BUT IT IS.
I knew some guys who thought they were players or tried to live that greaser life but I'll be goddamned if they all weren't Straight A students. Most of the former military ones smelled like starch they were so strack. Any cannibal who ate them would be over doing it on carbs.
Why?
Value systems. Plus they all pay taxes and want real jobs.
So you know, some kids.....yeah, leave their asses behind
But again.....I'm a bit cynical so if you still have hope for the world please do not let me dampen that.
I have a broken record reply, which goes something like this: When our government begins fining or prosecuting those many industries that hire immigrants(thus enticing them to swim the river), then I'll assume a mean spiritedly stance toward their children. When I see their lard ass, loud mouth momma's yelling into cell phones and pushing T bone laden grocery carts through checkout lines, it turns my stomach. Yep. They're eating T bones and smoking ready roll cigarettes while Fly man--bless his heart--is having to get by with potted(dog)meat from China and smoke string tobacco(little white sack)sold with papers. If I were to make a list of groups needing repatriation, mods would jump me.
Singlestack Wonder
03-11-17, 18:10
Still trying to figure out why presumptions of Americans being lazy means we should foot the bill for criminals?
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+10........some here "get it".......
PatrioticDisorder
03-11-17, 18:40
Congratulations, this is the worst idea I have heard all day
Says the dude who told us Trump don't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning! LOLz
brushy bill
03-11-17, 19:07
Not sure the point of punishing the kids here for the transgressions of the parents.
Unsure the point of punishing kids who are here legally to benefit illegal aliens. YMMV.
brushy bill
03-11-17, 19:10
I don't think it is fair to expect everyone else to give your kids a free ride through life as you game the system to live, work and prosper in a Country you committed a crime to enter.
This exactly.
HighDesert
03-11-17, 19:40
I know two bilingual educators here in New Mexico that have dreamer kids as students. Many of them who openly state that they neither want to naturalize nor assimilate in any way. In their minds, America is here for them, not the other way around. They know how the free money works and they intend to get every thing they feel entitled to. This attitude is absolutely because of their parents and the culture amongst the illegals in a sanctuary state.
I had the privilege of teaching high school in West Harlem and 7th/8th grade in Phoenix.
My school in NYC was surrounded by three projects and you can imagine the demographic.
My school in Phoenix was in Maryvale (West Phoenix hood) and you can imagine the demographic.
Both were "poor" - but different kinds of poor. NYC kids were citizens, 90% of my AZ kids were undocumented/illegal/dreamers whatever.
My NYC kids were on welfare and openly disclosed that they had no intention of going to college, as they understood how the system worked on welfare and public assistance, as they have seen from their families and neighborhoods. I would routinely have drunk and high parents come to our parent/teacher conferences, with the majority of parents never showing up. The kids always had the newest iPhone and Jordan's. This was NYC welfare poor.
My AZ kids were true poor - they had father's that worked multiple jobs illegally and busted ass to take care of their family. The majority of my AZ kids had this work ethic ingrained in them and understood that they had to work hard to have a good life, and America and college was an opportunity to advance themselves. College was all the majority of them wanted. I would routinely meet with the parents and they were genuine and only wanted the best for their kids - education - that they did not have. Fathers covered in paint and drywall would show up for these conferences. It was pretty ****ing moving and a lesson to me.
I would gladly have citizenship traded between my NYC kids and my AZ kids if I was given a magic button.
Its rather ironic that my NYC welfare brats were just as entitled as the snooty trustfund brats I grew up with in Fairfield County Connecticut.
I much prefered my illegal students and families to my NYC citizens.
Lots of white boys do, in fact, do the same thing. Work under the table.
Damn near every white trash, cracker with court-ordered child support works that way. It's the thing to do for deadbeat, POS "Dads".
Several industries are dependent on immigrant labor: construction, agriculture, poultry, and hotel/motel to name some. They squeal when immigrant numbers are down. Knowing what I know about young people, I really don't see many of them working on roofs in 100 degree plus heat or working in agricultural or poultry jobs. I make this observation after having spent 30 years as a teacher. I don't see any doing these jobs now.
Do the "Kids" not doing the jobs have other options? Like not working and getting tax benefits? Like working at a mall? People will always choose the path of least resistance. Whether thats sitting in a AC office instead of working on a hot roof. Taking "free" $$ and not doing a thing instead of working in a field, factory... If we eliminate the give them free shit mentality a good number will choose to work. If not they will die and bleach themselves from the gene pool. Win - Win IMO. If you eliminate the free shit army and you still have jobs unclaimed then you can claim that people wont do these jobs. Till then youre comparing apples to whales.
Averageman
03-12-17, 16:19
Do the "Kids" not doing the jobs have other options? Like not working and getting tax benefits? Like working at a mall? People will always choose the path of least resistance. Whether thats sitting in a AC office instead of working on a hot roof. Taking "free" $$ and not doing a thing instead of working in a field, factory... If we eliminate the give them free shit mentality a good number will choose to work. If not they will die and bleach themselves from the gene pool. Win - Win IMO. If you eliminate the free shit army and you still have jobs unclaimed then you can claim that people wont do these jobs. Till then youre comparing apples to whales.
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/03/10/survey-30-percent-of-college-kids-will-use-student-loans-for-spring-break-trips/
A recent survey of college students revealed that around 30 percent of college students will use their student loans to pay for spring break trips.
The study, which was conducted by LendEDU, concluded that over 30 percent of college students would tap into their student loans to fund spring break trips this year. According to a separate study conducted by Google Consumer Surveys, this is an increase from last year.
“Students should minimize their borrowing during their college years and live a sparse lifestyle — but no one wants to hear that when their fraternity brothers or sorority sisters are packing up to Cabo for the week,” argued Greg McBride, chief financial analyst of Bankrate.com.
I'm just guessing if you earned that money tarring roofs or laying shingles all Summer, Cabo could wait until after graduation.
If the price of a head of lettuce has to go up .10 cents in order for us to get rid of the illegals, I'm all for it. If it has to go up $2, no problem. When the illegals are gone, I can guarantee someone will step up to do the job. Someone did it before they were here, right? Supply and demand.
As an aside that is related to this topic, I think bringing back compulsory military service is the way to get our kids back on track. Here is why I say this: I did a job for several months in South Africa in 2005. I was pretty much on my own over there, so I quickly made friends with some of the locals. One friend was 33. His generation was the last to do the required 2 years of military service after high school. He and his peers were terrific human beings. They had great stories to tell and were great fun to hang out with. At the same time I was dating a 23 year old girl whose friends were the first generation that did not have to do military service. I hung out with and worked with both groups extensively. I was always with one group or the other. Days off, nights and weekends were spent either with the gf or with the brother from another mother and their friends. I got to live and work as one of them. It was truly a privilege and an honor to be treated like part of their families.
To say that the two groups were worlds apart would be an egregious understatement. The "kids" had the exact same entitlement attitude and allergy to work that our own kids here have. It was astounding. The older group, couldn't wait to jump in and get their hands dirty. They were eager to help with anything and everything. They were generous to a fault, and would kill or die to help a friend. I met a lot of people over there and observed the same trends across the board. Under mid 20s = POS. 30 and over = Good as gold. Some will write this off as the immaturity of youth. That's not how I saw it. I met youngin's who did voluntary service for their country and their behavior and demeanor was identical to the older crowd, even though they were younger.
We used to have that here too, but it ended. "Conscription service". Or "The Draft". We had it in colonial times and again during each of the major conflicts our country has been involved in. A couple of years of military service to the country you call home is not too much to ask, and it would certainly fill in some of the gaps left by some of today's parents. It would surely have straightened my insolent teenage arse out. Like Firefly suggested, someone needed to beat some sense into me.
brushy bill
03-12-17, 21:54
I think bringing back compulsory military service is the way to get our kids back on track. "Conscription service". Or "The Draft". We had it in colonial times and again during each of the major conflicts our country has been involved in. A couple of years of military service to the country you call home is not too much to ask, and it would certainly fill in some of the gaps left by some of today's parents. It would surely have straightened my insolent teenage arse out. Like Firefly suggested, someone needed to beat some sense into me.
This may have been true in the past, but now, people would be conscripted into a military of political correctness. Training priorities reflect this reality. If draftee did not want to play, they could easily get a separation for a variety of reasons. If they wanted to claim some type of protected class or create problems for the organization, they'd have a wide range of options, particularly in the case of sexual perversion or gender identity confusion. You certainly would NOT have any beating sense into anyone, implying they might, or even using bad language voicing their displeasure. You get the jest. In my opinion, the govt. has gone so far in turning the military into a major social engineering experiment that they have virtually destroyed its usefulness for transforming wayward youth. I have concerns if we were to get into anything serious with a near peer competitor. Particularly when they value success and victory over social justice and ideology. YMMV.
If the price of a head of lettuce has to go up .10 cents in order for us to get rid of the illegals, I'm all for it. If it has to go up $2, no problem. When the illegals are gone, I can guarantee someone will step up to do the job. Someone did it before they were here, right? Supply and demand.
Stop and think about it. The one part of our system that has universal demand and should work in harmony with basic economic principals is agriculture. Ask the farmers how that unregulated free market thingie works out for them. It don't, hence the subsidies.
I do agree with you on universal conscription (as opposed to the draft) but it is a non-starter because the people in power had better things to do than serve, as do their children.
Get rid of food stamps
Get the government out of student loans
There's a start. People will work when they go hungry.
Compulsory military service is a terrible idea, imo, for many reasons. #1 being people in politics.
Averageman
03-13-17, 05:14
Get rid of food stamps
Get the government out of student loans
There's a start. People will work when they go hungry.
Compulsory military service is a terrible idea, imo, for many reasons. #1 being people in politics.
Compulsory Military Service would be a real step backwards for our all volunteer military. If you don't want to be there, you're just going to be a burden to the system and a miserable person to work around and with.
Getting the .gov out of the Student loan business would actually reduce the price of an education for everyone.
The same thing with food stamps, if the .gov at the Federal level was out of that business the States could step up and come up with their own programs.
Eurodriver
03-13-17, 05:46
I find it interesting when people who've never served say what people need to be good Americans is military service.
Averageman
03-13-17, 08:07
I find it interesting when people who've never served say what people need to be good Americans is military service.
It's probably difficult to understand if you haven't done it.
The only thing I could compare it to as a commitment is likely some sort of religious calling. Your needs, your family, everything in life takes a backseat to service. If you're good at it, your reward is more service. It certainly isn't for those who aren't committed to it 100%.
I asked my Dad why he volunteered for Airborne school, he told me it was to get away from the guys who didn't want to be in the military. Interesting since this was the 1950's.
Imagine today with all of our SJW's....
I find it interesting when people who've never served say what people need to be good Americans is military service.
Marines and Army Reserve here. Retired as MSG in May, 2001.
Granted, things change, but I think the thing everyone overlooks is that most of the volunteer force is 'one and done' enlistments, leaving room for the career service member to advance.
Things would get all gummed up if everyone wanted to stay in for a career.
I got out of the Marines because I didn't want to risk going unaccompanied to Okinawa and miss my son learning to walk.
ETA: I think if your frame of reference is only the period encompassing the GWOT your viewpoint is the volunteer force in a time of increased Nationalism. That Nationalism is waning.
Averageman
03-13-17, 08:17
28 years total. Started back when it wasn't cool.
LOL, you mean back when no one wanted you to date their daughter?
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/03/10/survey-30-percent-of-college-kids-will-use-student-loans-for-spring-break-trips/
A recent survey of college students revealed that around 30 percent of college students will use their student loans to pay for spring break trips.
The study, which was conducted by LendEDU, concluded that over 30 percent of college students would tap into their student loans to fund spring break trips this year. According to a separate study conducted by Google Consumer Surveys, this is an increase from last year.
“Students should minimize their borrowing during their college years and live a sparse lifestyle — but no one wants to hear that when their fraternity brothers or sorority sisters are packing up to Cabo for the week,” argued Greg McBride, chief financial analyst of Bankrate.com.
I'm just guessing if you earned that money tarring roofs or laying shingles all Summer, Cabo could wait until after graduation.
Actually I did earn some of it roofing. In Houston. In the summer. Best god damned motivator for getting an education. PERIOD. Better than my dad screaming at me for 18 years even. The rest I earned interning, being a research assistant, and eventually working as a CAD jockey. I also went skiing over spring break while I was borrowing student loans. Went to various soccer tournaments across the state and country...
Not quite sure what that had to do with owing illegals and their kids any tax benefits, but there is my ed history.
As for the whole slavery to the government. I believe that forced service, aside from some national emergency like world war, zombie apocalypse.. is contrary to the Constitution. If people want to join the military so be it. If they want to join the peace corps so be it. If they want to join the jibs corps so be it. Forcing them to do any of that is wrong. PERIOD. It's as wrong as forcing productive members of society to pay to house and feed the lazy cunts among us.
Averageman
03-13-17, 10:17
Actually I did earn some of it roofing. In Houston. In the summer. Best god damned motivator for getting an education. PERIOD. Better than my dad screaming at me for 18 years even. The rest I earned interning, being a research assistant, and eventually working as a CAD jockey. I also went skiing over spring break while I was borrowing student loans. Went to various soccer tournaments across the state and country...
Not quite sure what that had to do with owing illegals and their kids any tax benefits, but there is my ed history.
My point was we've kind of raised a generation of folks out there who seem rather unwilling to do some blue collar jobs but very willing to borrow some student loan money. If that money is financing a vacation to Cabo, really? I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who later would complain about outrageous Student Loan debt.
Deferred gratification and an ability to sacrifice to achieve your goals seems to be a thing of the past.
I don't understand it.
If I were in some third world hell hole and trying to make an honest living, I'm not sure just how far I would go to better my life and achieve my dreams.
I can assure you though the drive to succeed and sacrifice to do so would seem to be a thing of the past.
LOL, you mean back when no one wanted you to date their daughter?
Ah, you got me before the edit. Actually, all of the parents of the girls I dated in high school liked the way I treated their daughters. I had them fooled.
As for the whole slavery to the government. I believe that forced service, aside from some national emergency like world war, zombie apocalypse.. is contrary to the Constitution. If people want to join the military so be it. If they want to join the peace corps so be it. If they want to join the jibs corps so be it. Forcing them to do any of that is wrong. PERIOD. It's as wrong as forcing productive members of society to pay to house and feed the lazy cunts among us.
I can respect your viewpoint, not saying it is incorrect, I just see it differently. Two years, essentially ages 18 to 20, is not going to ruin anyone's life. Universal conscription/mandatory service would/should encompass more than the military and it would, IMO, require a Constitutional Amendment.
WickedWillis
03-13-17, 11:51
Total load of shit.
I know a bunch of guys who will take any work for half of what most illegals can get working construction or agriculture. There are also still a bunch of kids in Iowa who detassle corn every year for less than minimum wage. Maybe it's just a Montana thing.
It's really not a load of shit, at least not in the Pacific Northwest. But I do work directly with both of those industries.
I was using the Montana haying deal as an example of the level of entitlement.
Averageman
03-13-17, 12:30
If we agree that most of these jobs are being done with illegal labor, how much of a change in economic forces would be required for these jobs to be an attractive alternative to a college degree?
You're going to have a hell of a time getting someone to roof a house for under $25 an hour in Texas in July.
Also, at this point I don't know that you could work in construction any more without being able to speak some fluent Mexican-Spanish here.
My point was we've kind of raised a generation of folks out there who seem rather unwilling to do some blue collar jobs but very willing to borrow some student loan money. If that money is financing a vacation to Cabo, really? I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who later would complain about outrageous Student Loan debt.
Deferred gratification and an ability to sacrifice to achieve your goals seems to be a thing of the past.
I don't understand it.
If I were in some third world hell hole and trying to make an honest living, I'm not sure just how far I would go to better my life and achieve my dreams.
I can assure you though the drive to succeed and sacrifice to do so would seem to be a thing of the past.
Thanks for clarifying. Agree 100% that if you borrow money and go to Cabo then don't bitch about the payment plan. I used GSL's to pay a good portion of my degrees. It took me a long time to regroup and wrap up college and I didn't feel right taking my parents $$. Technically I did use my GSL money to go skiing cause without the loan I wouldn't have had funds to do it. I do have a job and can make the payments so I don't refer being able to have a life.
My family started in a communist third world shithole. Mom and dad decided that the only way my bro and I had any chance at a future was to move out. So we did. LEGALLY. I don't really blame those who run north in order to better themselves. I blame us for letting them take advantage of stuff with no real attempt to stop and control it. This country does not owe anyone a single thing.
I can respect your viewpoint, not saying it is incorrect, I just see it differently. Two years, essentially ages 18 to 20, is not going to ruin anyone's life. Universal conscription/mandatory service would/should encompass more than the military and it would, IMO, require a Constitutional Amendment.
It's not about ruining lives as I agree 2 yrs service won't kill anyone so to speak. It's however hard to call it land of the free when you're not free. It's bad enough as is with all the limits. Now we want to add actual servitude.
This is IMO the least of our problems. No amount of mandatory anything will solve the societal rot and corruption we are dealing with today. It would be just another 2years of Progressive brain washing.
WickedWillis
03-13-17, 13:46
If we agree that most of these jobs are being done with illegal labor, how much of a change in economic forces would be required for these jobs to be an attractive alternative to a college degree?
You're going to have a hell of a time getting someone to roof a house for under $25 an hour in Texas in July.
Also, at this point I don't know that you could work in construction any more without being able to speak some fluent Mexican-Spanish here.
I have zero answers to how to fix that problem.
Roofing jobs aren't an alternative to college degrees in economically viable fields. Never the idea.
Construction jobs are a viable job for those who don't go to college and graduate in an economically viable field. They are viable jobs for those who can't go to college. They are viable jobs for those who want to pay for their college degrees. They are also a viable alternative to not starving to death.
There are no true economic forces at work here. We have government interference doing everything possible to prevent the economic forces from working as needed.
Coal Dragger
03-13-17, 15:16
I can respect your viewpoint, not saying it is incorrect, I just see it differently. Two years, essentially ages 18 to 20, is not going to ruin anyone's life. Universal conscription/mandatory service would/should encompass more than the military and it would, IMO, require a Constitutional Amendment.
Yeah there would be huge pushback from the special snowflakes and their parents.
Another idea would be no voting rights in national elections without military service. You want to have a say in how the nation is being run, you better have been willing to put your ass on the line for it at one time.
Averageman
03-13-17, 15:21
Roofing jobs aren't an alternative to college degrees in economically viable fields. Never the idea.
Construction jobs are a viable job for those who don't go to college and graduate in an economically viable field. They are viable jobs for those who can't go to college. They are viable jobs for those who want to pay for their college degrees. They are also a viable alternative to not starving to death.
There are no true economic forces at work here. We have government interference doing everything possible to prevent the economic forces from working as needed.
I dunno Buddy, I laid cement on high rise buildings one summer to save money to go to college. Bear in mine this was 1979, I was making $17 and hour as a laborer.
I'm not sure how much that would be in our current economy, but it wasn't anything I would sneeze at. The Unions back then protected those jobs and there were a lot of guys senior to me raising a family on that kind of money.
They are repressing the economic forces (rise in actual labor costs) and keeping the costs down artificially.
Averageman
03-13-17, 15:31
Yeah there would be huge pushback from the special snowflakes and their parents.
Another idea would be no voting rights in national elections without military service. You want to have a say in how the nation is being run, you better have been willing to put your ass on the line for it at one time.
The only downside to the whole idea is it's really going to suck for the Military.
You don't have to see more than one of these turds with ears explain to you that he doesn't want to be in a war zone and really only joined for the college money to know how bad this could go.
Imagine some real lunatic who doesn't want to be there, he makes everyone else miserable and oh by the way, he's got a gun and a couple of frags.
No really, lets just keep the current batch of knuckleheads, they're a bit more charming and I'm getting used to them.
Everybody gets this All American image of Chip Whiteboy with a squared away high and tight maxing out PT tests and saying grace at every meal running up to punch out a Nazi in the face and then knocking out 20 push ups to reward himself if there was mandatory conscription.
NEWP.
It'd be a lot if guys half assing everything, smoking dope from their guns, filling stockades, and breeding like jackrabbits with some downrange whore or Kraut/Mamasan bring back. Plus they'll either get used to all the programs or get out with a chip on their shoulder.
A LOT of asshole Dems were in the military. It won't make people magically awesome.
I think one of the more disillusioning things I ever saw was a Marine Staff Sergeant running coke out of his recruiting office. And this was about a year into Iraq. And showed up to court he did in his dress blues toting a Bible. Wasn't my case, I was just a pair of hands but this man (and later to find out his assistant/co-recruiter/whatever) were no shit running coke out of a recruitment office.
So. No. Negative. We are a big country. We dont need conscription. If we ever got in a big war, like really big, to the point where they needed every swinging vine in the congo then I suspect the missiles will already be 30 minutes out and we get to play Fallout for real.
Plus I known too many pieces of human shit who do nothing but show up and drink coffee who think their rank mystically crosses over into real life snd that's a big negative.
As for "showing people what they are voting on"
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Are you all crazy? These pieces of shit LIVE in squalor and shitholes. They know full well how sorry things are.
And they dont care.
As for Stacey Whitegirl and her Minivan Mafia....they'd just feel sorrier for them all and think "oh noes, we need higher taxes and moar social programs! And less guns and less mean, big dumb male police! The meanies!"
Please quit applying rational thought and reasonable concepts of society to real life. You will get disappointed every time.
I mean.....I'm probably going to burn all my 5.11 shit and piss on the ashes one day.
Remember that song Shattered Dreams by Jonny Hates Jazz?
LIFE. ANTHEM. mfers!
But please, keep hope alive. Keep hope alive on its ventilator trapped in its Jacob's Ladder purgatory that is neither Heaven nor Hell for it to suffer under an irresolute torment of banality
Yeah there would be huge pushback from the special snowflakes and their parents.
Another idea would be no voting rights in national elections without military service. You want to have a say in how the nation is being run, you better have been willing to put your ass on the line for it at one time.
If you don't serve and can't vote would you still be obligated to pay taxes? We often forget that someone has to foot the bill for all the crap uncle sugar spends $ on. Whether that is an F35 or Obama care or concrete for roads. Every tax payer is vested in the future of this country and literally puts their money where their mouths are. We have a system that forces us to pay for shit we don't want in the form
of taxes and now you want to double down and force them to serve too. Where r u going to get the $$ to fund all this slavery? You going to tax the crap out if folks who haven't served some more.
I dunno Buddy, I laid cement on high rise buildings one summer to save money to go to college. Bear in mine this was 1979, I was making $17 and hour as a laborer.
I'm not sure how much that would be in our current economy, but it wasn't anything I would sneeze at. The Unions back then protected those jobs and there were a lot of guys senior to me raising a family on that kind of money.
They are repressing the economic forces (rise in actual labor costs) and keeping the costs down artificially.
Until we eliminate the free shit army and its ability to not work jobs at a wage the economy can bear any comparisons are moot. If the illegals can work and survive off these jobs then so can the welfare rats.
I still say: the issue in some of these cases isnt a lack of government interference, but one of too many. How can we argue that we have a free market when we reward folks for not participating in the market we want to grow.
Some of you guys have peculiar notions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Coal Dragger
03-13-17, 19:50
Everybody gets this All American image of Chip Whiteboy with a squared away high and tight maxing out PT tests and saying grace at every meal running up to punch out a Nazi in the face and then knocking out 20 push ups to reward himself if there was mandatory conscription.
NEWP.
It'd be a lot if guys half assing everything, smoking dope from their guns, filling stockades, and breeding like jackrabbits with some downrange whore or Kraut/Mamasan bring back. Plus they'll either get used to all the programs or get out with a chip on their shoulder.
A LOT of asshole Dems were in the military. It won't make people magically awesome.
I think one of the more disillusioning things I ever saw was a Marine Staff Sergeant running coke out of his recruiting office. And this was about a year into Iraq. And showed up to court he did in his dress blues toting a Bible. Wasn't my case, I was just a pair of hands but this man (and later to find out his assistant/co-recruiter/whatever) were no shit running coke out of a recruitment office.
So. No. Negative. We are a big country. We dont need conscription. If we ever got in a big war, like really big, to the point where they needed every swinging vine in the congo then I suspect the missiles will already be 30 minutes out and we get to play Fallout for real.
Plus I known too many pieces of human shit who do nothing but show up and drink coffee who think their rank mystically crosses over into real life snd that's a big negative.
As for "showing people what they are voting on"
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Are you all crazy? These pieces of shit LIVE in squalor and shitholes. They know full well how sorry things are.
And they dont care.
As for Stacey Whitegirl and her Minivan Mafia....they'd just feel sorrier for them all and think "oh noes, we need higher taxes and moar social programs! And less guns and less mean, big dumb male police! The meanies!"
Please quit applying rational thought and reasonable concepts of society to real life. You will get disappointed every time.
I mean.....I'm probably going to burn all my 5.11 shit and piss on the ashes one day.
Remember that song Shattered Dreams by Jonny Hates Jazz?
LIFE. ANTHEM. mfers!
But please, keep hope alive. Keep hope alive on its ventilator trapped in its Jacob's Ladder purgatory that is neither Heaven nor Hell for it to suffer under an irresolute torment of banality
Blah blah blah.
I get it. Being a cop and dealing with shit bags all the time is making you bitter and cynical. Probably would have the same affect on me too. Perhaps law enforcement isn't for you. Time to find a new gig that makes you happy, it's a free country and you're not subject to the UCMJ or anything so you can quit any time you like.
Otherwise go do your chosen job with a smile on your face and a light heart, because you choose to be there. It's all sunshine and ****ing Lollipops.
Blah blah blah.
I get it. Being a cop and dealing with shit bags all the time is making you bitter and cynical. Probably would have the same affect on me too. Perhaps law enforcement isn't for you. Time to find a new gig that makes you happy, it's a free country and you're not subject to the UCMJ or anything so you can quit any time you like.
Otherwise go do your chosen job with a smile on your face and a light heart, because you choose to be there. It's all sunshine and ****ing Lollipops.
It actually IS sunshine and lollipops. I'm living the dream. Every morning, James Brown's Living in America plays. Everybody gives me the dap. Little cartoon birds tweet and sit on my shoulder.
No sarcasm.
Buuut.... Telling a bunch of newly minted 18 year olds that for two to three years that their butts belong to Uncle Sam will have a lot of negative an unintended consequences.
You won't breed a nation of super soldiers, you'll just drag everybody else down.
Ramairthree said something once that stuck with me. "Our pussies might be the biggest pussies ever but our studs are the meanest beasts out there".
Tell me how conscription would improve that. Cite sources. I'll wait.
I like the idea that people who do something are people who actually want to do it.
Charles Rangel always talks about the draft and he sucks.
If you really wanted meanigful voting, bring back the requirement of owning land.
Tell me how conscription would improve that. Cite sources. I'll wait.
It was working in South Africa until they ended it, and it used to work fine and dandy here too.
I don't know how a person could scientifically study the "quality" of human beings produced by one system vs. the other. I don't know if we could even agree on what constitutes "quality" attributes. As such, I have no citations for you. Merely my anecdotal American and African observations.
Are we too far gone as a nation for any of these ideas to work? I used to think so. When Bill I-did-not-have-sexual-relations-with-that-woman Clinton got RE-elected for his second term, I was convinced we were done for as a nation. For me, the was the giant hand pulling the flush lever. My fears were confirmed when Barack change-the-fabric-of-America Obama got elected not once, but TWICE. I was convinced we were circling the bowl. But you know where this is going, don't you? I can be just as cynical as the next guy, but...
Then something magical happened. The sleeping giant awoke. He gave a great big double one finger salute, complete with the mad dog face and all, to the establishment and that sleeping giant elected one Donald John Trump as the president of these United States. Hope was rekindled on that fateful night. Then our new POTUS immediately began kicking ass and taking names. President Trump began undoing all the damage Obama left us. Erasing Eo after EO. President Trump began appointing all the right people into all the right positions, and his appointees also began undoing damage and setting us back on the right course. He nominated a SCOTUS that will actually vote to uphold the law and respect the Constitution. Imagine that!
Nah, man. We can still turn this thing around. I don't think its as bad as you think it is. Maybe you need to get out of Hotlanta more often. Ever been to DesMoines? They don't think its so bad there. I'm drowning in liberal tears here in Southern Cali. Its glorious. Glorious, I tell ya'!
Coal Dragger
03-13-17, 21:56
Switzerland, Israel, South Korea (not sure if they do anymore) use it. They're fine.
Will all 18 year olds adapt and do what they are supposed to? No, there will always be shit bags. Discipline them under the UCMJ, if they're shit bags. There are a small percentage of shitbags in any profession or group of people. The majority however will be just fine.
Alternatively use my idea. Let the selfish whiny little baby dicks let others protect them or take the risks. That's fine. Let the kids who want to step up and do something keep on doing it like our current military does. I did my stint as a Marine Corps grunt during war time for the last bit, and understand not wanting to fight along with a whiny conscript. Just call voting rights in national elections another benefit of veterans and current service members.
So let the whiny baby dicks stay home and protest or go color in their safe space wearing their footy pajamas while they shoot heroin. I don't give three ****s if that's what they want to do. I just don't want them to have any say at all about the direction of the nation if they want to be children their entire lives. So I'd take away their right to vote in national elections unless they volunteered for military service.
Using land ownership is another idea but would unfairly disenfranchise a lot of poor people who may work very hard and just can't afford property. Plus that would introduce a caste system that would be inescapable for many regardless of a willingness to do other things beneficial to society at large. Our current system of allowing any mouth breathing mongoloid to vote is broken though. A bunch of self interested apathetic children voting is not helping any of us in the end.
seen a couple other pics of the young immigrant children in swedish schools
and they wonder why child molestation and rape are happening so much more ?
he said he was 14
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/29/00/30AB3CE200000578-0-image-a-20_1454027860438.jpg
and this precious 15 year old
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/29/00/30AB376D00000578-0-image-a-21_1454027877408.jpg
Switzerland, Israel, South Korea (not sure if they do anymore) use it. They're fine.
Will all 18 year olds adapt and do what they are supposed to? No, there will always be shit bags. Discipline them under the UCMJ, if they're shit bags. There are a small percentage of shitbags in any profession or group of people. The majority however will be just fine.
Alternatively use my idea. Let the selfish whiny little baby dicks let others protect them or take the risks. That's fine. Let the kids who want to step up and do something keep on doing it like our current military does. I did my stint as a Marine Corps grunt during war time for the last bit, and understand not wanting to fight along with a whiny conscript. Just call voting rights in national elections another benefit of veterans and current service members.
So let the whiny baby dicks stay home and protest or go color in their safe space wearing their footy pajamas while they shoot heroin. I don't give three ****s if that's what they want to do. I just don't want them to have any say at all about the direction of the nation if they want to be children their entire lives. So I'd take away their right to vote in national elections unless they volunteered for military service.
Using land ownership is another idea but would unfairly disenfranchise a lot of poor people who may work very hard and just can't afford property. Plus that would introduce a caste system that would be inescapable for many regardless of a willingness to do other things beneficial to society at large. Our current system of allowing any mouth breathing mongoloid to vote is broken though. A bunch of self interested apathetic children voting is not helping any of us in the end.
Agreed.
I can't remember who, but one of our M4C members has the following as their signature line:
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner…
Rhetorical question for anyone reading: The FSA will always vote for more FS. Why do we allow them to have a vote about what to do with our stuff? Why should criminal illegal aliens, or their offspring, have any say whatsoever about how our US tax dollars are spent?
Well, you both have posed some interesting ideas.
Switzerland and Israel are both small and more or less Socialist. Granted you do get more or less something to show for the high taxes but Switzerland is totally defensive and neutral. Israel is Fort Apache. And it is small.
South Korea is still at war, they just have a cease fire.
South Africa went under for way different reasons.
Russia has conscription, and they are tough...but they aren't sharp on average. I don't mean Spetsnaz or whatever. I mean Yuri Uchebka putting in time.
Same for the Chinese...a Communist country. Check out China Uncensored's bit on the ChiComs....they ain't so hot. As they get more nutrition, they are outgrowing their tanks. Their gun is a wonky bullpup. Not AKs except for parade.
The US Military screens everybody. On average our guys are smarter, sharper, and better. As warfare gets more advanced, we no longer need Picketts Charge or Normandy storming.
We got A-10s, Drones, JDAMS and a lot more evil shit. At one point...the SAS could've said they were the baddest dudes, but we have an entire JSOC of bad dudes. Pick your poison.
But that's a Strawman....
Militaries have budgets. Those budgets come from taxes. I certainly don't mind Joe having ammo.
But we don't need everybody to be a Joe. Filling stockades cost money. Dressing and feeding costs money. It might help some people but not most.
The hooah kids were going to join anyways. And we both know military nor police service makes you a good person.
People will start whining to get some "disability". Plus females getting pregnant etc.
We have presence the world over, perhaps more than is nevessary. The military isn't hurting. Plus I hear how it is used as a social experiment ground.
But that's a Strawman...
The Framers said, "Free White Male aged 21, not beholden to indentureship nor stock, landowner".
Nothing about military service. In fact the Framers did not want a standing military. Hence all males aged 18-45 being declared the Militia. The 2nd Amendment. Our favorite one.
Mind you, "land owning" is difficult as was "aged 21" and "White Male" as it excluded otherwise qualified voters.
In all things, a pendulumn. We went from Obama to Trump. Who showed up? The Gen Xers and Millenials.
What we are seeing, CD, is a new Patriotism. I think a positive one.
To steal a line from Cheap Trick, "The kids are alright".
The soldiers now get free poon, beer, and aid(RIGHTFULLY SO) upon coming home.
In my dad's era....going to the airport in Class As was not a fun time.
M4Cers here of that era can tell you. It could be bad.
More people get rejected from the Military than college.
We have Patriotism, it is just different.
If you want to motivate people, cut their EBT and stop feeling sorry for every illegal.
And stop paying mind to the loudmouths and professional pot stirrers.
Most people dont think that way. Never did and never will.
America, because of how we have it, is very self correcting. It just takes a minute.
I dare say that you are going to see, and we are seeing already, a surge of right wing youth.
Maybe not the 700 Club type...but...
A lot of blacks are seeing the bum deal they got from the left and the women too.
Most women are turned off by "feminism". They want Men, children, and homes. Being a THOT is not fun.
A lot of people have been buying guns and the stuff we have now is way better than 10 or 20 years ago.
We're in the forest. Quit looking for the trees.
I feel the best about our country than I have in quite a while.
The OP was about someone not teaching illegals and people felt sorry for illegals.
But regardless of our opinions, a lot of people are openly tired of accepting illegals because "lol reasons"
If you want Patriotism......
why you looking so hard? We're here.
You cannot force Freedom. It is dichotomous by nature to try.
We got it pretty good
Not for nothing but I'd forego a firefly book for one of those calendars with a new witty quip everyday.
If funding is the main argument against mandatory military service, I can think of many billions of dollars annually wasted on shi… stuff, that it shouldn't be wasted on.
And I can think of lots of ways that a return on the investment could be realized.
If funding is the main argument against mandatory military service, I can think of many billions of dollars annually wasted on shi… stuff, that it shouldn't be wasted on.
And I can think of lots of ways that a return on the investment could be realized.
We need to rebuild the infrastructure of America, correct? Who better to do it?
Switzerland, Israel, South Korea (not sure if they do anymore) use it. They're fine.
Will all 18 year olds adapt and do what they are supposed to? No, there will always be shit bags. Discipline them under the UCMJ, if they're shit bags. There are a small percentage of shitbags in any profession or group of people. The majority however will be just fine.
Alternatively use my idea. Let the selfish whiny little baby dicks let others protect them or take the risks. That's fine. Let the kids who want to step up and do something keep on doing it like our current military does. I did my stint as a Marine Corps grunt during war time for the last bit, and understand not wanting to fight along with a whiny conscript. Just call voting rights in national elections another benefit of veterans and current service members.
So let the whiny baby dicks stay home and protest or go color in their safe space wearing their footy pajamas while they shoot heroin. I don't give three ****s if that's what they want to do. I just don't want them to have any say at all about the direction of the nation if they want to be children their entire lives. So I'd take away their right to vote in national elections unless they volunteered for military service.
Using land ownership is another idea but would unfairly disenfranchise a lot of poor people who may work very hard and just can't afford property. Plus that would introduce a caste system that would be inescapable for many regardless of a willingness to do other things beneficial to society at large. Our current system of allowing any mouth breathing mongoloid to vote is broken though. A bunch of self interested apathetic children voting is not helping any of us in the end.
The problem with your theory is we would have to support a military of approx 20 million people. And re-train every two years. That would be a massive undertaking and a logistical nightmare to just "switch on".
That's larger than some of the countries you cite.
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Averageman
03-14-17, 07:51
The problem with your theory is we would have to support a military of approx 20 million people. And re-train every two years. That would be a massive undertaking and a logistical nightmare to just "switch on".
That's larger than some of the countries you cite.
Just as a thought;
Go look and see what goes on in the Military and then understand that these folks we allow to join, the ones who qualify are likely the top 15% in the Country. By that I mean ASVAB, Physical and Background check are all clean enough to pass the basic qualifications for entrance.
Then consider throwing all of those qualifications away and just opening the doors wide for Ladi Dadi and everybody. It would be a frigging nightmare of Biblical proportions.
Think of the worst criminal lowlife shipbird you ever encountered, put him someplace he doesn't want to be and then arm him.
Nahhh, really, we don't need that.
The ones who now slip through the process and now are in the system are too difficult to get rid of.
Just as a thought;
Go look and see what goes on in the Military and then understand that these folks we allow to join, the ones who qualify are likely the top 15% in the Country. By that I mean ASVAB, Physical and Background check are all clean enough to pass the basic qualifications for entrance.
Then consider throwing all of those qualifications away and just opening the doors wide for Ladi Dadi and everybody. It would be a frigging nightmare of Biblical proportions.
Think of the worst criminal lowlife shipbird you ever encountered, put him someplace he doesn't want to be and then arm him.
Nahhh, really, we don't need that.
The ones who now slip through the process and now are in the system are too difficult to get rid of.
I agree with you. My point was it would be a large, cumbersome, and costly endeavor, that would do nothing more than dilute the current military we have today. The one that, for all it's "flaws", is still the greatest and most lethal the world has ever known.
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Averageman
03-14-17, 09:21
I agree with you. My point was it would be a large, cumbersome, and costly endeavor, that would do nothing more than dilute the current military we have today. The one that, for all it's "flaws", is still the greatest and most lethal the world has ever known.
I would agree 100%.
You know McNamara tried letting 100,000 less qualified applicants in the Military. Some thought they would essentially be cannon fodder, but I can assure you from my experience they were a wrench in the works that screwed the Army for something like a decade.
Learning our lesson from that would be key if we ever truly considered this again.
I would agree 100%.
You know McNamara tried letting 100,000 less qualified applicants in the Military. Some thought they would essentially be cannon fodder, but I can assure you from my experience they were a wrench in the works that screwed the Army for something like a decade.
Learning our lesson from that would be key if we ever truly considered this again.
I've heard the same from other Vn era vets, and those who had to rebuild afterwards. Hopefully, that lesson has been learned.
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I like the idea of getting a vote if you're a tax contributor. Lots of people don't own property anymore since they live in apartments and condos and whatever's, but are still solid contributors to the economy and society. If at the end of the year you paid in more than you drew out - you get to vote. If you're sucking tax tit then you don't. Eliminates the FSA types from being able to vote for more benefits. Eliminates the under the table workers from voting cause they haven't contributed. Win - win.
Coal Dragger
03-14-17, 14:01
The problem with your theory is we would have to support a military of approx 20 million people. And re-train every two years. That would be a massive undertaking and a logistical nightmare to just "switch on".
That's larger than some of the countries you cite.
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If you had read more carefully you'd see my idea is not mandatory service. It is requiring military service to be allowed to vote in national elections. Keep the volunteer force, make full voting rights something a person earns. If a citizen wants their full say in the direction of the nation they should have to step up and commit to defending the nation for awhile.
I suspect this would have minimal affect on the number of enlistments if it could be enacted by Constitutional Amendment. The cowardly, the selfish, and the lazy would just continue to be cowardly, selfish, and lazy; they wouldn't be beating down the local recruiters door just to be able to vote for Reps, Senators, and POTUS.
If you had read more carefully you'd see my idea is not mandatory service. It is requiring military service to be allowed to vote in national elections. Keep the volunteer force, make full voting rights something a person earns. If a citizen wants their full say in the direction of the nation they should have to step up and commit to defending the nation for awhile.
I suspect this would have minimal affect on the number of enlistments if it could be enacted by Constitutional Amendment. The cowardly, the selfish, and the lazy would just continue to be cowardly, selfish, and lazy; they wouldn't be beating down the local recruiters door just to be able to vote for Reps, Senators, and POTUS.
There's a problem here.
You are assuming these kids in your Heinleinian paradigm would be combat arms.
What is to stop some guy from doing four years in finance, textiles, or as a clerk just to run as a gun grabbing Democrat?
Only 10% of the military is any kind of combat and the remaining 90% is support be it MWR, making sure checks don't bounce, Chaplain assistant, stateside truck driver, etc etc etc.
The bean counters would still outnumber the toe taggers.
I knew a girl in the day who did the Peace Corps deal and came back so hateful and surly you would've thought she did a hitch in the 'Nam.
Likewise I knew (past tense) a guy who went in the Army all hooah and came out an unreliable alchie and doper to the point where I had to say "Seeya, cuz". No combat PTSD, No injury. Nothing. Just too much baby mama drama and too much being a POS. He did not come out better. I don't blame the military. Knowing him as I do now I blame him just being a turd who got sick of someone having to tell him what to do every five minutes.
Exclusive, anecdotal cases but for every ricky ranger there are five shuffling females on profile with attitudes.
You know that.
I hate it that sorry people vote but no matter how you restrict it or rearrange it, it won't matter long term.
I like the idea if God fearing men with tricorn hats and muskets at the ready too but...
that was a while ago.
I will say I dont think things are as bad as we think they are.
If you had read more carefully you'd see my idea is not mandatory service. It is requiring military service to be allowed to vote in national elections. Keep the volunteer force, make full voting rights something a person earns. If a citizen wants their full say in the direction of the nation they should have to step up and commit to defending the nation for awhile.
I suspect this would have minimal affect on the number of enlistments if it could be enacted by Constitutional Amendment. The cowardly, the selfish, and the lazy would just continue to be cowardly, selfish, and lazy; they wouldn't be beating down the local recruiters door just to be able to vote for Reps, Senators, and POTUS.
But they would still,of course, be forced to pay taxes. Without representation??? Sorry, but that doesn't quite reconcile with the idea that we fought a revolution partially based on the concept that taxation without representation was a bad thing. Some might even argue that one of the core principles that forced the foundation of this nation would be eliminated because Robert Heinlein.
If you had read more carefully you'd see my idea is not mandatory service. It is requiring military service to be allowed to vote in national elections. Keep the volunteer force, make full voting rights something a person earns. If a citizen wants their full say in the direction of the nation they should have to step up and commit to defending the nation for awhile.
I suspect this would have minimal affect on the number of enlistments if it could be enacted by Constitutional Amendment. The cowardly, the selfish, and the lazy would just continue to be cowardly, selfish, and lazy; they wouldn't be beating down the local recruiters door just to be able to vote for Reps, Senators, and POTUS.
No, I fully understood. My point is that it would be more burdensome to the military than what the upside would yield. Keep in mind, most FSA types don't vote anyway.
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Using land ownership is another idea but would unfairly disenfranchise a lot of poor people who may work very hard and just can't afford property. Plus that would introduce a caste system that would be inescapable for many regardless of a willingness to do other things beneficial to society at large. Our current system of allowing any mouth breathing mongoloid to vote is broken though. A bunch of self interested apathetic children voting is not helping any of us in the end.
Since the countries you mentioned have about a 20% rate of disqualification, you will still create a caste system. The other thing those countries that have forced conscription is that they are a defensive force only. As long as politicians get to send my kids abroad to make a political point, I will never support a system such as this.
I'm not sure why military service is some sort of magic citizenship pill? Voter turnout in the military hovers around 20%.
I'm not sure why military service is some sort of magic citizenship pill? Voter turnout in the military hovers around 20%.
Robert Heinlein - Starship Troopers had that model.
I believe we could solve the problems of universal conscription for either military or public service. I'm not for creating a system where you have the option to serve in order to vote.
I believe military service should be a path to citizenship for immigrants.
Coal Dragger
03-14-17, 18:54
But they would still,of course, be forced to pay taxes. Without representation??? Sorry, but that doesn't quite reconcile with the idea that we fought a revolution partially based on the concept that taxation without representation was a bad thing. Some might even argue that one of the core principles that forced the foundation of this nation would be eliminated because Robert Heinlein.
Yep and they would make the choice not to have that right. Pretty simple. No one would be forcing them to do anything.
Of course not all who wanted to could serve due to budgets, but for those willing to try to at least get in I could see a waiver.
I believe military service should be a path to citizenship for immigrants.
I thought it already kind of was. I known several guys from South America and a few from Eastern Europe who did that.
Making people do something like conscription will not work in a huge country like ours where we actively blow people up.
Likewise making people be in the police or Emergency Services will just lead to more BS.
What about the blind or the disabled? Conscription is kind of a big Socialist ideal.
Selective Service is good. If ever the country needed a million 18 year olds; they got their name and number.
But by that point, the missiles will be 30 minutes out anyway.
I dunno it creates a caste where people start looking down on people because they don't march with ruck and rifle, run through the ghetto, or deal with a dude asperating in a meat wagon.
The way I see it, if you pay taxes, stay out of trouble, dont take the dole, and live a decent life then you are squared away as-is.
There may well be people who will never know the joy of filling a sandbag or directing traffic in the rain, but their loss.
It's kind of like Kev's(whom I regard fondly) idea of PT tests, 3 large fee, etc for national CCW. Interesting idea but it aint gonna happen.
Most people get their values from their folks more than they would some DI/DS/Whatever Navy and Air Force guys use.
If ever I take a wife and sire an heir; I will actively encourage him to get a good job as far removed from bullets, knives, Hep A-Z, HIV, hypo needles, etc as possible.
No shame in it at all.
Averageman
03-16-17, 12:41
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/23-percent-of-public-schoolchildren-live-in-immigrant-households/
The Center for Immigration Studies report estimates that between a quarter and a third of the public school students from immigrant households in 2015 were the children of illegal immigrants. Most of those children — of both legal and illegal immigrants — are American citizens because they were born in the United States. The report pegs it at 83.5 percent.
Whether U.S.-born or born abroad, though, Camarota said the same questions about assimilation apply. For instance, the average student who speaks a foreign language at home lives in a PUMA where 42 percent of their classmates also speak a foreign language.
The greater the share of people who speak other languages, the less pressure there is to learn English, Camarota said.
He said that in an era of identity politics, immigrants receive mixed messages about whether they should even try to assimilate.
Now if you consider that and can put a price tag on it, think about it for a minute.
I believe they had it right in the 1770s....join or die. Be American or don't.
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Yep and they would make the choice not to have that right. Pretty simple. No one would be forcing them to do anything.
Of course not all who wanted to could serve due to budgets, but for those willing to try to at least get in I could see a waiver.
Just so I understand your post. A person who don't want to go into the military can chose not to do so and will then not have to pay federal taxes or are you saying that he will be forced to pay taxes without having a vote on how that $$ is spent? If it's the latter, how do you reconcile that kind of tax schemes as being any different than the schemes of a king whose ass we kicked out a few hundred years ago??
Sorry, but if we don't like having to purchase health insurance at the point of a government gun how the hell can we say that mandatory high risk service is any better?
And just so we are clear. Heinlein was a fiction writer. Not a historian. Just cause it "worked" in Starship Troopers doesn't mean it really works in life. Kind of like the whole transporter beam thing in ST. Only works on paper and the big screen.
Having grown up in a nation that had conscription I can tell you it's NOT the army I want defending me and my family from anything. If you want an army that can't do much as wipe it's ass then conscription is the path forward. Don't compare conscription with a draft during a massive national security event you have popular support for, like say WW2. Think if it in today's terms. We can't even have an inauguration ceremony without asshattery. You think those special snowflakes would make for a great army. Or do you think those snowflakes would sabotage everything possible. Or worse learn weapons skills and tactics only to use them again the EVIL Trump empire when they get out. Kind of like a few gangbangers have already done.
As for service as a path to citizenship. Already done. I think the Romans did it as well. Don't quite remember how that turned out for them though.
Only 1 effing way to become a citizen and the first step does not include commit a federal crime.
I believe they had it right in the 1770s....join or die. Be American or don't.
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That's not a fact.. only 6.5% of the American population at the time was actually involved in the Revolutionary War. Most soldiers were paid privateers or mercenaries hired from other countries.
I do agree with your sentiment, though. I wish more people were involved in the greatness of this country.
And just so we are clear. Heinlein was a fiction writer. Not a historian. Just cause it "worked" in Starship Troopers doesn't mean it really works in life. Kind of like the whole transporter beam thing in ST. Only works on paper and the big screen.
No way! Next your going to tell me Ayn Rand was just an author.
I think that universal conscription could be worked out in our country and that it would be worth the juice. I also realize it is a somewhat idealistic and not likely to happen.
In terms of your homeland's conscription, I do not know what nation you are referring to, but there are some differences in the infrastructure and competence of the various earmed forces throughout the world. I like to think that the United State's would rank higher in that aspect than most nations.
Eurodriver
03-18-17, 08:22
Marines and Army Reserve here. Retired as MSG in May, 2001.
Granted, things change, but I think the thing everyone overlooks is that most of the volunteer force is 'one and done' enlistments, leaving room for the career service member to advance.
Things would get all gummed up if everyone wanted to stay in for a career.
I got out of the Marines because I didn't want to risk going unaccompanied to Okinawa and miss my son learning to walk.
ETA: I think if your frame of reference is only the period encompassing the GWOT your viewpoint is the volunteer force in a time of increased Nationalism. That Nationalism is waning.
Can you elaborate on your ETA?
We already have the 2nd largest military in the world. We are 2nd only to China who has almost triple our population.
They got good hackers but otherwise, ain't skeered. China Uncensored did a feature on their military and it's kind of pathetic.
If anything Nationalism is having a bit of a resurgence post-9/11.
Each year, we get roughly 4 million brand new 18 year olds. Our current standing, counting all branches, is not even 2 million.
How do you propose to train, house, equip, feed, and put to work(beyond mopping, sweeping, and painting) that many people annually without it becoming prohibitively expensive if not outright bank breaking?
Cite sources. Show the mathematics.
Cite Constitutionality.
I would sooner make it mandatory to take at least one JROTC class in high school where you learn flag protocol, courtesies, major Continental and Foreign Battles, and at least a week of air rifle with the four rules heavily ingrained with a 50 question written test with no missed answers as a graduation requirement.
That would make far more sense and be far less deleterious
TAZ- Several countries have mandatory conscription with quality troops. Israel, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and Denmark are the ones off the top of my head. Not saying for or against; just that some can do it right, but this seems dependent upon the population it draws from.
Eurodriver
03-18-17, 11:52
TAZ- Several countries have mandatory conscription with quality troops. Israel, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and Denmark are the ones off the top of my head. Not saying for or against; just that some can do it right, but this seems dependent upon the population it draws from.
The population of all those countries combined does not equal 10% of the US population.
Perhaps countries with a homogenous population without diversity issues would have an easier effort with universal conscription. Complaints of racial discrimination when making people do what they wish not to is one reason that we would not be able to make conscription work. Another is that we have at least two generations of people who object to rules and regimentation--many of whom are spoiled. Believe it or not, interference by well connected parents of recruits would be another factor. Yet another inhibiting factor would be the large number of illiterate youths, many of whom are un-trainable.
We already have the 2nd largest military in the world. We are 2nd only to China who has almost triple our population.
They got good hackers but otherwise, ain't skeered. China Uncensored did a feature on their military and it's kind of pathetic.
If anything Nationalism is having a bit of a resurgence post-9/11.
Each year, we get roughly 4 million brand new 18 year olds. Our current standing, counting all branches, is not even 2 million.
How do you propose to train, house, equip, feed, and put to work(beyond mopping, sweeping, and painting) that many people annually without it becoming prohibitively expensive if not outright bank breaking?
Cite sources. Show the mathematics.
Cite Constitutionality.
I would sooner make it mandatory to take at least one JROTC class in high school where you learn flag protocol, courtesies, major Continental and Foreign Battles, and at least a week of air rifle with the four rules heavily ingrained with a 50 question written test with no missed answers as a graduation requirement.
That would make far more sense and be far less deleterious
Not to nitpick, but doesn't China have like 1.5 billion people? That would make them nearly 5x our size (330 million).
Not to nitpick, but doesn't China have like 1.5 billion people? That would make them nearly 5x our size (330 million).
I was being conservative. They'll put your ass to death for anything over there.
But yeah they got way more people and only have a million more active military members.
And most of their conscription time is spent on political indoctrination. They aren't all jumping out of planes and training to be killers of men.
They do like 1.5 to 2 years and it is more like college than the Army. It's more of an indoctrination tool than actually showing people how to fight.
ETA and even then.....the Chinese dont actually conscript anyone. Enough people voluntarily join that they get over-strength and actually reduce force.
But still....
Can you elaborate on your ETA?
Sure.
This was the original first line of my post before edit, which Averageman caught: 28 years total. Started back when it wasn't cool. Which was in reponse to your statement about enjoying folks who hadn't served saying how it ought to be. It directly goes to the point of my ETA:
ETA: I think if your frame of reference is only the period encompassing the GWOT your viewpoint is the volunteer force in a time of increased Nationalism. That Nationalism is waning.
I hit boot camp in June of '72, I had actually joined in December '71 under delayed entry. Given the times this was not a particularly popular thing to do. My boot camp platoon was 3/4 black kids, a couple hispanics, an Israeli, and about a dozen white guys. Almost all the black guys had signed up for four years to get a bonus, I believe $4,000.00. Their thought process was 'shit man, ain't no one going to send us to the infantry for four years, were going to be motor-t.' For the most part they were wrong.
The point I'm trying to make is that, my experience was that during that era folks that joined up largely had no other prospects. Sure there were patriots and dumb guys like me who wanted the adventure, but for many it was nothing else to do.
IMO the professionalism of the Armed Forces as a whole improved markedly throughout the 80's and 90's, particularly that of the NCO Corps. The people that chose to make the all volunteer force a career were much better educated than at any time in the past. However, IMO, many of the 'one and done' enlistees were still made up of the same mix of no other prospects, patriot, and adventurer.
After 9/11, I believe that changed dramatically. An wave of Patriotism swept over the Nation as a result of the attacks on American soil. As a result joining the Armed Forces became a more acceptable (not the right words) choice. As a result Patriots made up the majority of the force.
As the GWOT winds down I believe the make up of the force will change. Going back to the premise this all started on, at that point my point would be that the 2 year universally conscripted soldier will not be the drain on the force that the draftees of the VN era were, largely because of an extremely professional NCO and Officer Corps.
JMO ICBFOS.
During the Vietnam War, at least one writer has said that the a large number of the professional NCO's in combat outfits were killed off by the end of 1966. Hence, shake and bake nco classes began turning out instant nco's who had minimal training and zero combat experience. Officers in artillery and infantry units spent a maximum of 6 months in the field before being rotated out. The stated reason was exposing a greater number of officers to combat experience. A good friend who served with the 1st Air Cav during 1967-68 had 5 different company commanders(captains). My friend left Vietnam as a 20 year old E5 but earned his rank. Perhaps the large extent of shake and bake nco's and officer rotation policies during the war contributed to morale and leadership negatives immediately afterward.
That's not a fact.. only 6.5% of the American population at the time was actually involved in the Revolutionary War. Most soldiers were paid privateers or mercenaries hired from other countries.
I do agree with your sentiment, though. I wish more people were involved in the greatness of this country.
I'm well aware of active participation not being 100%. However, that is the propaganda. People assimilated. The nation is doomed if filled with countless cultures within our borders that refuse to be American.
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I wish to say something.
Multiculturalism =/= Multiracialism.
Multiracialism and doing your own thing is fine and dandy, but having everybody not assimilating is bad.
Assimilate or get lost. That means:
-Speak English
-Allegiance to US first and foremost
-If the "Old Country" was all that then you wouldnt be here.
You can be black brown or whatever all damn day and believe in whatever deity you like but....
Having little enclaves of protected species is lame.
If I went to some of these bullshit countries and set up "Firefly's All American BBQ stand and free Bible dispensary" while blasting Night Rangers Still Rock in the USA and the Battle Hymn of the Republic while waving huge American flags.....
Well, I dont know how many they would send to whip my ass, but eventually they would send enough.
I was born here, I like here, I'm used to here, and would appreciate folks not making here like there. If I wanted to be there I would go.
For the record, I am not some blonde WASP named Chad with a cardigan and a tennis racket.
I'm pretty sure if I rolled up to pick up some folks' daughters for the evening there would be awkward discomfort, but hey.....
I yam what I yam and I'm okay with it.
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