View Full Version : Defect in McMillin Stock on My GAP
My GAP HRT arrived a couple is months and and I'm finally starting to beak-in the barrel (optic on back order). At the range yesterday I noticed this defect in the stock under the cheek raiser:
44404
Perhaps I'm being too critical, but this hole exposes the screw that holds tension on the raiser. I'm very tempted to send it back over this issue alone, and am not getting a good vibe from the accuracy. Granted, I'm shooting single shots and cleaning between each, but the first 10 rounds were spread over 3.5". That is shooting from a rest with a NF ATACR in BO rings. Of note, no test target came with the rifle.
Eurodriver
03-12-17, 15:26
3.5" at 100 yards?
With a GAP?
Are you shooting surplus ammo from the USSR?
Dist. Expert 26
03-12-17, 15:28
I'd send it back, like today. That's totally unacceptable for a rifle with the price tag a GAP carries.
As far as the accuracy, the rifle may just not like whatever you're feeding it. Although 3.5" is pretty awful even for a factory gun.
firefighter37
03-12-17, 16:44
For what that rifle cost, it should be flawless.
Besides, unless you have the shakes, 3.5" is horrible. I don't care what ammo it is.
I don't think that defect would affect accuracy? maybe you just need to find the right ammo, however that "defect" would bother me, and I would have no problem with your decision to send it back. I'm guessing if GAP knew that was there, they wouldn't have sent it out like that?
Eurodriver
03-12-17, 18:33
I disagree on the ammo. A GAP should hold 2" with any commercially available .308 ammo available today. Even milsurp South African BS (which I know you're not shooting in a GAP) should hold 2". 3.5" is insane - assuming a 100y target.
Whether that screw issue affects accuracy or not I have no idea, but if they skipped out on that area of QC what else did they **** up?
Dist. Expert 26
03-12-17, 18:36
I disagree on the ammo. A GAP should hold 2" with any commercially available .308 ammo available today. Even milsurp South African BS (which I know you're not shooting in a GAP) should hold 2". 3.5" is insane - assuming a 100y target.
Whether that screw issue affects accuracy or not I have no idea, but if they skipped out on that area of QC what else did they **** up?
My LRI built 6.5 wouldn't hold anything remotely resembling a group during barrel break in. Once I got some rounds down the tube it tightened right up to an average of .4 with handloads. No argument on the QC being awful, but the accuracy might not be related.
3.5" at 100 yards?
With a GAP?
Are you shooting surplus ammo from the USSR?
It was Federal 168 grain GMM which should hold at least 1 MOA. Here is my target from yesterday, but keep in mind that I was cleaning the barral after each shot:
44412
The top round was the first round out the barrel and I gave it the maiden cleaning about a month prior; meaning the barrel and brake were dry. However, the POI marched down the target with each cleaning despite holding the POA at the target center and making no zero adjustments. The 10th round was the very bottom. Keep in mind I tried to remove any excess solvent from the brake and chamber before each shot.
Now, I just got back from the range today where I shot 3 groups of 3-round with cleaning between each group:
44413
In the first group (center), the cold bore shot was 0.2 MILs low and right. The other 2 rounds are basically on top of each other. Notice that the cold bore shot is within 1/3" of my cold bore shot yesterday; that removes optics from the equation since I made no windage or elevation adjustments.
In groups 2 (lower right) and 3 (lower left) the cold bore shot was 1 MIL due south with the other 2 rounds touching. I have NEVER had cold bore shots come in 2" low - ever. I did adjust elevation 0.2 MILs down between groups 1 and 2, and 0.1 MILs left between 2 and 3. The only thing that I can think of is that some residual solvent is in my brake or chamber causing these extreme cold bore shots.
I was planning to move on to some 5-round groups as part of my break-in, but I might as well wait to see what GAP plans to do with the stock.
EDT: Sorry that the pics of my targets are sideways. M4C often posts my pics rotated 90 degrees. I don't know why.
Eurodriver
03-12-17, 19:38
Let me give you an analogy of barrel break-in and your accuracy woes.
You've treated a thousand patients for cough and they've all been common colds. No worries. It goes away in a week. This time you've got a patient presenting with a cough, but he's got a knife in his chest. Maybe the two are related?
If my first groups of a $3000+ hand built custom rifle by a reputable riflesmith were 3.5" (I use 175gr FGMM for break in) I might give it some more time, but yours has a broken stock.
By Breaking in a Barrel all you're doing is smoothing out the end of the chamber/beginning of the rifling by firing it. Thus you clean to remove the copper from those rough edges. It does not do anything magical to the barrel of the gun, but I won't deny crazy things have happened.
Those 3shot groups are wild. How cold of a bore are we talking?
If it were me I would fire a sighter and a 5rd group 2x with no cleaning. Eliminate variables. If it is anything more than 1.5" with FGMM by now I would send the entire rifle back to GAP and have them look it over. Anything further is a waste of ammo on your part and they need to fix the stock anyway.
Let me give you an analogy of barrel break-in and your accuracy woes.
You've treated a thousand patients for cough and they've all been common colds. No worries. It goes away in a week. This time you've got a patient presenting with a cough, but he's got a knife in his chest. Maybe the two are related?
If my first groups of a $3000+ hand built custom rifle by a reputable riflesmith were 3.5" (I use 175gr FGMM for break in) I might give it some more time, but yours has a broken stock.
By Breaking in a Barrel all you're doing is smoothing out the end of the chamber/beginning of the rifling by firing it. Thus you clean to remove the copper from those rough edges. It does not do anything magical to the barrel of the gun, but I won't deny crazy things have happened.
Those 3shot groups are wild. How cold of a bore are we talking?
If it were me I would fire a sighter and a 5rd group 2x with no cleaning. Eliminate variables. If it is anything more than 1.5" with FGMM by now I would send the entire rifle back to GAP and have them look it over. Anything further is a waste of ammo on your part and they need to fix the stock anyway.
Pretty cold. There was about 15 min between groups, and at least 10 wet patches and 10 strokes of a nylon brush between each group. I also let the solvent soak in the bore for 10 min. There is definitely something about cleaning the barrel that was pushing the first shot 2" low. I'll let you know what GAP says tomorrow.
Oh well, weird shit happens. That is why God gave me an AXMC...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186766-Surgeon-Scalpel-LA-in-AI-AXAICS-vs-AI-AX-MC-300-System/page2 ;)
Eurodriver
03-12-17, 20:17
How do I get to where you are in life? :)
How do I get to where you are in life? :)
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Huge-Penis-Richard-Jacob/dp/1594743061
LOL, well played. I'm saving that link for future reference!
Agreed, two separate issues, but both should be addressed.
And have you considered a third penis reduction surgery? I mean, double digits for any man can be challenging....
Eurodriver
03-14-17, 18:08
https://www.amazon.com/Live-Huge-Penis-Richard-Jacob/dp/1594743061
Classic lol
There is just no way that gun should shoot 3.5. Something gots to be a miss. Buts it's worth shooting a complete 5 round group so you can tell GAP. I just don't think cold bore shots should show that variability.
AND that stock has to have slipped through the cracks.
Keep us posted.
PB
Eurodriver
03-14-17, 21:23
Pretty cold. There was about 15 min between groups, and at least 10 wet patches and 10 strokes of a nylon brush between each group. I also let the solvent soak in the bore for 10 min. There is definitely something about cleaning the barrel that was pushing the first shot 2" low. I'll let you know what GAP says tomorrow.
Oh well, weird shit happens. That is why God gave me an AXMC...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186766-Surgeon-Scalpel-LA-in-AI-AXAICS-vs-AI-AX-MC-300-System/page2 ;)
Did you contact GAP? Inquiring minds and all that...
PS $$$, big D (el oh el) and super cool toys?
You either drive a Porsche 911 or a 2002 Ford Escort. Which is it?
Did you contact GAP? Inquiring minds and all that...
PS $$$, big D (el oh el) and super cool toys?
You either drive a Porsche 911 or a 2002 Ford Escort. Which is it?
I emailed my contact at GAP, Ken Lin, on Monday morning at 1006 hrs. I followed that up with a phone call at 1500 and spoke with Ash who assured me that Ken would get back in touch with me. After receiving no response, I called again yesterday at 1338 and Ken was still busy with other walk-in customers. As of this posting, we are now at the 48-hour mark with no return on my initial email or calls. I'll let the readers decide if this delay in returning messages is reasonable or what one should expect from a custom builder.
As for my cars, I drive a recent model off-road SUV and recent model sport sedan. I don't disclose more details for PERSEC given my previous employment with a particular 3-letter agency.
I emailed my contact at GAP, Ken Lin, on Monday morning at 1006 hrs. I followed that up with a phone call at 1500 and spoke with Ash who assured me that Ken would get back in touch with me. After receiving no response, I called again yesterday at 1338 and Ken was still busy with other walk-in customers. As of this posting, we are now at the 48-hour mark with no return on my initial email or calls. I'll let the readers decide if this delay in returning messages is reasonable or what one should expect from a custom builder.
As for my cars, I drive a recent model off-road SUV and recent model sport sedan. I don't disclose more details for PERSEC given my previous employment with a particular 3-letter agency.
Me, I would be hopping mad. Once you get to GAP-level providers, you expect more CS.
Worked for the IRS, huh?? Or Bureau of Indian Affairs?
Since you brought it up....my first job out of college was with CIA, in Virginia, in analysis (first degree poli sci). I drove a canary-yellow, 1976 AMC Gremlin. With a red fender on the drivers' side because the original had been torn off in an accident. But if I worked there now or recently I certainly would not have brought it up.
Worked for the IRS, huh?? Or Bureau of Indian Affairs?
Nope, MIB. Now, if I could direct your attention to this pen in my left hand...
Third phone call placed to Ken today at 1330 went to his voicemail.
Nope, MIB. Now, if I could direct your attention to this pen in my left hand...
Third phone call placed to Ken today at 1300 went to his voicemail.
Oh shit your are good. You got game! MIB solid team
Thats just unacceptable for a boutique premium gun shop. Its too easy to buy a premium action barrel and stock ...and let your local reputable smith build a laser beam. For a fraction of the cost. I believe in buying the best so thats just uncool.
PB
fallenromeo
03-15-17, 15:56
Why is someone from MIB messing with a GAP rifle when you can carry the noisy cricket?
Cleaning between shots is not shooting groups. Shoot ten rounds consecutively to foul the barrel. Let it cool, then shoot a group.
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My rifle came back from GAP today with a repaired stock. The whole process was a bit of a fiasco with different people at GAP claiming different things ranging from "within spec - talk to McMillan if unsatisfied" to "yeah, we should fix that." Ultimately, they sent me a shipping label and the turn around was about 2 weeks. The nice lady who called to let me know the repair was complete and confirm my return address told me that the stock defect was fixed but nothing was done about the grouping as it was viewed as "normal cold bore variance." Hmmm, a full MIL south is normal variance. I can tell that they did not shoot it. In fact, they've never shot it because I learned from this experience that GAP does not test fire any of their rifles before sending them out. According to George Gardner, they once test fired every rifle, but stopped long ago because it was seen as needlessly slowing production - interesting.
At this point I'm reserving judgment on this rifle. It only has 10 single rounds between cleaning and 3 groups of 3 rounds between cleanings. This weekend I will go to 5 X 5-shot groups between cleanings to round out the break-in. If it is still a full MIL off of a cold bore I will not be satisfied.
Dude, you don't know what variance actually is because you're overcleaning the thing. Shoot 100 rounds down it then see how it shoots.
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Dude, you don't know what variance actually is because you're overcleaning the thing. Shoot 100 rounds down it then see how it shoots.
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Hmmm, I'm following the recommended break-in that GAP specifies for their guns.
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-download.html
It happens to be virtually identical to the break-in that AI, Nosler, DesertTech, and Surgeon recommends.
http://www.accuracyinternational.us/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AI-15591-01A-USER-MANUAL-AXMC.pdf Page 43
https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-and-articles/2016/2/24/custom-rifle-barrel-break-in-procedure
Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
I do say you might be a bit obsessed with cleaning. I clean mine every 200 rounds whether they need it or not.
Maybe not 100, but please shoot 5 groups of five and see how she she runs. Some guns , in my humble experience, don't take well to cleaning and other don't show much variance.
I know you have owned some very nice equipment in the past. What has been your cleaning regiment? Do you clean after every shooting. My partner has been know to, and his cold bore Remmy was dead on. Just shocking.
PB
I do say you might be a bit obsessed with cleaning. I clean mine every 200 rounds whether they need it or not.
Maybe not 100, but please shoot 5 groups of five and see how she she runs. Some guns , in my humble experience, don't take well to cleaning and other don't show much variance.
I know you have owned some very nice equipment in the past. What has been your cleaning regiment? Do you clean after every shooting. My partner has been know to, and his cold bore Remmy was dead on. Just shocking.
PB
OK, I think there is a miscommunication issue. This is an initial barrel break-in as described in the manuals for the PRECISION rifles that I own. It is NOT a routine cleaning schedule, and it is not something that I do for my ARs. Virtually every custom precision rifle manufacturer and ammunition producer recommends a break-in procedure for the first 25-50 rounds depending on the tendency of the barrel to accumulate copper. I have provided links to those shooting schedules in my previous post but they all generally look something like this:
1) Clean after every round for the first 10-12 or until copper fouling lessens
2) Clean after 3-5 rounds until copper fouling lessens
3) After a total of 30-50 rounds you will notice minimal fouling between groups and the barrel is broken in.
This break-in procedure is largely done to prolong barrel life, but MAY also help with accuracy.
As for my usual cleaning regimen once a barrel is broken in, it depends on the rifle and its tendency to accumulate copper and fouling. Some of my 308s will go 75-100 rounds before I detect a change in accuracy. My 300 WMs and 338 LMs are more like 40-50 rounds but every barrel is different.
Hmmm, I'm following the recommended break-in that GAP specifies for their guns.
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-download.html
It happens to be virtually identical to the break-in that AI, Nosler, DesertTech, and Surgeon recommends.
http://www.accuracyinternational.us/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AI-15591-01A-USER-MANUAL-AXMC.pdf Page 43
https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-and-articles/2016/2/24/custom-rifle-barrel-break-in-procedure
Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
I don't need your links.
Barrel break-in is an old wives tale.
But per your admission, of "break-in", you can't hold the gun accountable because it's not "broken-in".
Just shoot the ****ing gun, man. Stop obsessing over cleaning and break-in. The wives take is a cover-their butt recommendation that is left over from an era before lapping of precision rifle barrels. It's completely normal for a gun to have shift between cleaning because there is residual solvents and you've physically changed the season of the bore.
Any and all guns shift poi/poa after cleaning, including the brands which you've so cleverly linked to. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170407/51c97cb2bc4708e047253894e0cdc5fb.jpg
But what do I know?
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There is a big difference between cold bore and clean bore, PB. A gun shouldn't have cold bore shift, but clean bore is normal quite extravagant. That's the only way I can get a shift with my AX...clean it, and it takes about ten shots to settle back in.
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A couple of thoughts:
1) This thread was about the stock. The customer service was a bit of an odyssey but it's fixed now. Moreover, I thought that I was clear that the accuracy was more of an oddity than an issue at this point, but written coms has its limitations. In fact, my original post from 3/12 specifically mentioned that it was possibly an issue of tiny, residual solvent in the chamber or throat.
2) With respect to barrel break-in, I really don't care where people fall in this debate. It's you dollar and time. Perhaps the most concise explanation of why it may be necessary can be found in this interview with Bartlein Barrels:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=rW6SF-jlbkg
Bottom line - the chamber reamer spinning perpendicular to the axis of the bore CAN leave tiny imperfections in the throat; break-in MAY remove those imperfections. In other words, it is the throats that is being broken-in.
If you don't want to go through the hassle, be my guest. But please don't talk to me about it being a wives tale when the first things asked by George Garder when I discussed the rifle were: 1) What ammo are you using, and 2) How/Did you break it in...?
There is a big difference between cold bore and clean bore, PB. A gun shouldn't have cold bore shift, but clean bore is normal quite extravagant. That's the only way I can get a shift with my AX...clean it, and it takes about ten shots to settle back in.
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Thats a good point, his would be both cold bore and clean bore, dead nuts bullseye. The cold bore deal is critical with hunting guns. My hunting 300 has zero minimal to zero sift.
Sensei , my money is that gun is going to be shooter. Keep us posted, I have a friend shopping GAP and this is important.
PB
Thats a good point, his would be both cold bore and clean bore, dead nuts bullseye. The cold bore deal is critical with hunting guns. My hunting 300 has zero minimal to zero sift.
Sensei , my money is that gun is going to be shooter. Keep us posted, I have a friend shopping GAP and this is important.
PB
I should have break-in complete tomorrow provided that the spousal element approves...
Eurodriver
04-09-17, 04:48
If you don't want to go through the hassle, be my guest. But please don't talk to me about it being a wives tale when the first things asked by George Garder when I discussed the rifle were: 1) What ammo are you using, and 2) How/Did you break it in...?
I think that's a throw back to the Chrome lined M4Carbine roots of M4C. It certainly is not a myth.
I'm also very glad to see your rifle is doing well. Continue to keep us posted.
A couple of thoughts:
1) This thread was about the stock. The customer service was a bit of an odyssey but it's fixed now. Moreover, I thought that I was clear that the accuracy was more of an oddity than an issue at this point, but written coms has its limitations. In fact, my original post from 3/12 specifically mentioned that it was possibly an issue of tiny, residual solvent in the chamber or throat.
2) With respect to barrel break-in, I really don't care where people fall in this debate. It's you dollar and time. Perhaps the most concise explanation of why it may be necessary can be found in this interview with Bartlein Barrels:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=rW6SF-jlbkg
Bottom line - the chamber reamer spinning perpendicular to the axis of the bore CAN leave tiny imperfections in the throat; break-in MAY remove those imperfections. In other words, it is the throats that is being broken-in.
If you don't want to go through the hassle, be my guest. But please don't talk to me about it being a wives tale when the first things asked by George Garder when I discussed the rifle were: 1) What ammo are you using, and 2) How/Did you break it in...?
If you're "breaking in" then why the hell are you complaining about shift? Why is it even being brought up? It's normal!
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First, sorry for the rotated pictures. M4C rotates my pictures without rhyme or reason from time to time.
So, the rifle is very accurate. This is 5-rounds of FGMM from a Harris bipod and rear sandbag at 100 yards. The round at 5 o'clock is the clean, cold bore shot and the other 4 are almost one hole:
44937
Here is another 5-round group from a bipod, but this time a thin layer of fluid (what you get after a few wet patches and brush strokes) was applied to the floor of the Surefire SOCOM brake:
44938
The fluid in the brake after cleaning is what was driving the first round 3" low at 100 yards. After the first round when the brake is dry, the rifle is a laser and will hold under 1 MOA with factory ammo. I bet it gets closer to 1/2 MOA from a bench with the right hand loads and a better Indian. FWIW, it doesn't need to be solvent in the brake - I sprayed it with water and got very similar results. Food for thought if you are running a SF brake w/o a suppressor and need to make a shot in heavy rain...
Good to see that gun grouping nicely. I used to obsess over 1/2 inch groups, but anymore MOA gets me hits when and where I need it. Practically, moa is great.
Glad you solved the rubics cube on the deep six first round hit.
PB
Good to see that gun grouping nicely. I used to obsess over 1/2 inch groups, but anymore MOA gets me hits when and where I need it. Practically, moa is great.
Glad you solved the rubics cube on the deep six first round hit.
PB
Although I suspect most of my rifles exceed both my ability and the performance of GMM factory ammo, I've resisted the temptation to start reloading. I simply don't have the time. I do all my zeroing and training from a bipod +/- sandbag and will never buy a benchrest. Too many old geezers show up on the line next to me and spend 10 min setting up their rest. Shooting from a rest would be like asking my doctor if I'm healthy enough for sexual activity. ;)
Next week I'll chrono some factory loads both with and without a Surefire RC2 suppressor.
Another data point today:
44957
10 rounds of 168 grain FGMM at 100 yards off a Harris bipod and rear sandbag. Local conditions are 77F, 1-2 mph avg winds with 13 WSW gusts, RH 33%.
My Ballistic software says 0.650" max spread...
Thats a solid 10 round group. Nicely done. Now that you can be proud of your new family member, post a pic. Are you shooting with a can?
Thats a solid 10 round group. Nicely done. Now that you can be proud of your new family member, post a pic. Are you shooting with a can?
Not yet in terms of the suppressor. I'm going out again this weekend with a chrono and suppressor. Here is a iPhone pic:
44987
BTW, do you like my new fireplace. Romantic eh?
Nice rig, really like it! For me I've found that accuracy with SF SOCOM cans is best if you make sure the mount is good and clean.
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Nice rig, really like it! For me I've found that accuracy with SF SOCOM cans is best if you make sure the mount is good and clean.
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Thanks. This is actually my first precision rifle that lacks a forward 6 o'clock rail. Not a huge deal, but the bipod world has come a long way in a decide. The Harris is an oldie but goodie, but I miss the legs forward capability.
Not yet in terms of the suppressor. I'm going out again this weekend with a chrono and suppressor. Here is a iPhone pic:
44987
BTW, do you like my new fireplace. Romantic eh?
You must have pulled the bear rug up for the pic. Still MIB sexy!
PB
Nice rig, really like it! For me I've found that accuracy with SF SOCOM cans is best if you make sure the mount is good and clean.
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That scares me. I have the crustiest fkn mounts on the planet, and cans and ....I just recently started pulling my cans off each week. Because I fused my TBAC can with a couple hundred rounds not long ago.
PB
That scares me. I have the crustiest fkn mounts on the planet, and cans and ....I just recently started pulling my cans off each week. Because I fused my TBAC can with a couple hundred rounds not long ago.
PB
It's not anything crazy, but my 1/2-3/4 MOA clean and around 1 when it's cruddy.
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Hmmm, I'm following the recommended break-in that GAP specifies for their guns.
http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-download.html
It happens to be virtually identical to the break-in that AI, Nosler, DesertTech, and Surgeon recommends.
http://www.accuracyinternational.us/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AI-15591-01A-USER-MANUAL-AXMC.pdf Page 43
https://www.nosler.com/blog/news-and-articles/2016/2/24/custom-rifle-barrel-break-in-procedure
Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
OK, I think there is a miscommunication issue. This is an initial barrel break-in as described in the manuals for the PRECISION rifles that I own. It is NOT a routine cleaning schedule, and it is not something that I do for my ARs. Virtually every custom precision rifle manufacturer and ammunition producer recommends a break-in procedure for the first 25-50 rounds depending on the tendency of the barrel to accumulate copper. I have provided links to those shooting schedules in my previous post but they all generally look something like this:
1) Clean after every round for the first 10-12 or until copper fouling lessens
2) Clean after 3-5 rounds until copper fouling lessens
3) After a total of 30-50 rounds you will notice minimal fouling between groups and the barrel is broken in.
This break-in procedure is largely done to prolong barrel life, but MAY also help with accuracy.
As for my usual cleaning regimen once a barrel is broken in, it depends on the rifle and its tendency to accumulate copper and fouling. Some of my 308s will go 75-100 rounds before I detect a change in accuracy. My 300 WMs and 338 LMs are more like 40-50 rounds but every barrel is different.
i think tylerw02 is also trying to say, while the break in procedure may be outlined by GAP, they are not shooting the gun for groups DURING that break in procedure.
i don't even like breaking my cheekweld while shooting for groups, that's not to say anything about running liquids through the barrel, letting them sit and then nylon brushing.
Today was chrono day at the range. 5 rounds of Federal 168 grain GMM produced 2669 +/- 21 fps unsuppressed. Adding a SF SOCOM-2 suppressor yielded 2693 +/- 7 fps. Extreme spread off a bipod and rear sandbag for 5-shots is still right at 0.5" at 100 yards with the suppressor, but POI was shifted due south by 0.2 mils.
That's good data. Solid shooting. Good to see the can tighten it up. May indicate that gun would like a hotter load. Wonder how Black Hills would do? They probably have pretty good 7.62 ammo.
PB
If FGMM isn't doing it for you, I'd look at Prime ammo. Very consistent.
Prime 6.5 is good stuff. It damn their shipping charges are killer.
I would wait and buy a case when they do free shipping.
In .308 I have always seen the 175 FGMM do great.
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