View Full Version : What New Firearms Developments Would You Like to See
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 11:37
Just finished reading an article (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-14/crashing-gun-sales-post-obama-era-causes-mass-layoffs-remington-manufacturing-facili) about declining firearms sales.
Remington was mentioned, and one of the things I considered after reading the article is that, overall, the peripheral manufacturers are the ones pushing the envelope in terms of innovation.
Take, for instance, something like a Trijicon RX01 and compare it to a Trijicon RM06. Or, alternatively, look back at an old Surefire 60-lumen incan light compared to the 600+ lumen portable lighthouses we have now.
The above are great indicators of evolutionary designs leading to demonstrably better, more effective products getting into the end-users hands.
Contrast the above to firearms themselves. The bulk of new pistols are ripoffs of an almost 40 year old Glock design. Company X releases a striker-fired polymer-framed handgun in the year 2017, and tries to convince us they've solved cold-fusion. On the long-gun side, "innovation" is selling an AR-15 variant that takes bigger diameter bullets.
Unlike most other industries, gun manufacturers themselves don't seem to push any boundaries.
If Chevy was trying to compete with Ford by selling a 1997 Tahoe in 2017, with bolted-on aftermarket spoilers and a ground effects kit, they'd be folding up shop.
So, what innovations would you like to see in terms of firearms designs? The manufacturers are going to need to start ponying up on R&D if they don't want to be liquidating their assets in a Chapter X restructuring in a few years...
Averageman
03-14-17, 11:52
Thanks for posting that.
You know I would like to think the best thing to come out of declining sales overall sales would be the lesser quality manufacturers begin to disappear. Unfortunately I don't think that's going to happen. Due diligence when it comes to spending money on guns usually doesn't seem to happen, how many examples of that have you seen on the board? It would seem people only begin to research when they find out their $400 Bubba built AR is a POS.
Personally, I would like to see an quality AR style rifle in 6.5 Creedmore out there with a 20 inch barrel in the 2K neighborhood. I've kept my eye on a couple of guys, but I'm kind of waiting to see if the bugs are worked out. Kind of a unique system, so it may take some time, but it could really be the tits.
It also seems innovations in optics have been tremendous.
Personally, I think in order to further the advancement of firearms we should first look at the projectiles and propellant. Furthermore, Weapon systems in general need not be a firearm so to speak. Aren't we supposed to be using ray guns by now? How about a visor that targets multiple enemy at once and sends out laser beams from a 5 pound backpack?
Remember when combustion vehicles used a throttle cable? Maybe soon we will be asking: Remember when guns used casings and projectiles?
I remember a time before the hybrid and electric cars. And when diesel was considered horrible.
Sales are declining because people are not concerned with an epic gun grab anymore. It's a buyer's market.
I don't really see what there really is that you couldn't already buy.
But....
A full size single stack Glock 17/19. That would go way better than anything 45 GAP.
While new and innovative ideas are going to sell firearms to people who already have firearms, the real ticket to increasing long term sales is getting more people behind triggers. This means investing in shooting ranges, marketing geared towards getting people onto those ranges, developing youth programs that build lifelong shooters, and lobbying to open up suppressors and SBR's without government interference.
I am likely not alone in the fact that I have enough (gasp) firearms to last me a lifetime. The only thing that is going to drive me to purchase now would be not having to get a tax stamp for a suppressor or SBR.
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 12:22
Hopefully SteyrAUG will pipe up. IIRC correctly, he has knowledge bombs he can drop on caseless ammo. I know jack and shit about it.
My biggest bitch of all is shotguns.
The fact that an off-the-shelf Remington 870 is essentially the exact gun from 1950 is absolutely insane. When the biggest "advancement" to an 870 in almost 70 years is the addition of some cute FDE furniture, it's hard to argue that there's been any innovation.
I would buy the shit out of a box-fed shotgun that was manufactured in the US. Unlike currently available pumps and autos, I could spend more time shooting than I do reloading.
A box-fed version of something like the KSG, that functioned reliably, would be an incremental step forward in terms of technology. Realistically, something like that should have been available about 30 years ago, so the fact that it's not, today, is a fine example of why Remington deserves to see it's stock drop 30% in short order. We're not talking about splitting the atom here. It's not a physics problem, it's an engineering problem...
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 12:25
Bingo. Good ranges are uncommon. I'm in one of the largest metro areas of the country, and I have to drive an hour + to get to an outdoor range...
While new and innovative ideas are going to sell firearms to people who already have firearms, the real ticket to increasing long term sales is getting more people behind triggers. This means investing in shooting ranges.
I would buy the shit out of a 17 the thickness of a 43...
A full size single stack Glock 17/19. That would go way better than anything 45 GAP.
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 12:29
When my $500 drone with a $20 app can bust out some image-recognition, and tracking, the optics manufacturers are going to need to up their game as well.
Electronic Distance Measurement capabilities should be mandatory at this point.
How about a visor that targets multiple enemy at once and sends out laser beams from a 5 pound backpack?
The USAS 12 was based of the Atchkisson and looked like a huge M16 with a magazine.
But the Fun Police declared it a destructive device because lol you can't have that much fun.
I remember getting to shoot and almost buy a SPAS 15. It too has an A1 profile and like the 12 can go pump or auto and has skyrocketed in price in the last 15 years.
I agree, doing away with the NFA would open up a lot more innovation.
Personally, I think in order to further that advancement of firearms we should first look at the projectiles and propellant. Furthermore, Weapon systems in general need not be a firearm so to speak.
This was running through my head when I read the original post. Primer igniting powder then pushing lead... How quaint.
And this...
Sales are declining because people are not concerned with an epic gun grab anymore. It's a buyer's market.
I just wish the prices would better reflect that. They are coming down, but not enough.
The current innovation that I would like to have in hand would be a pocket flame thrower for snow removal. ****ing 2 feet of the shit in my driveway. And I ain't talking the light powdery shit either, I am talking wet snow. I think I'll chill my whiskey in the snow bank while I shovel.
Anyway, onto the thread. One innovation I would like to see, though not purely firearms, would be programmable flashlight, handheld and weapon mounted. Would be nice to be able to plug the light in my computer, and go, "Hmm, going to be using it indoor so that 1200 lumen deathray really isn't handy, lets roll it back to 300 lumens." Or, "I have this light for EDC, and again I don't need a 3000 lumen light saber with a 2 minute run time, lets set it at 400 lumen and 3 hour run time. That's a nice balance." Or being able to add strobe or remove strobe function, or single or multiple outputs. Or any number of other others options. I am tired of looking at lights and seeing lumens going up and up but run time going down and down. I'd love to have a EDC light in the 200-400 range with a 6 hour run time on 2 cr123s.
I think optics are really where we are going to be seeing innovation in the short upcoming years. What we will see I don't know, but thermal is making a lot of inroads. I am hoping to see advances in night vision that bring that down in price and increase performance.
Would also like to see advances in lighter weight body armor that can handle more abuse and stop more while not breaking backs or ruining knees.
As far as guns, an honest AA 12 should be available to the public, I mean we have ****ing Saiga 12s with drum mags after all. Would be a neat niche for them to fill what with retro ARs. As far as the ARs go, you've got a handful or so of manufacturers, BCM, DD, Colt, Sonics, LMT, KAC, who are catering to those who want a sword of war, everyone else is racing each other to the bottom and honestly if things continue this way for 5 or more years I think you are going to see a lot of the low end players either need to really innovate something that catches the market or they will die and be forgotten with a few big name low enders sticking around because their markets are more than just ARs. Same with polymer frames handguns and 1911. The Hudson 9 is about the only thing in the past 10 years handgun wise that I saw come out and went, well it is at least a little different. I mean honestly, the only gun i'd like to see come out would be a USP with a regular pic rail, but then I suppose I do have the P30 and it's better ergos, but still damnit. Honestly I am waiting for a lazy firearms design to come out with a polymer frames pistol with a completely smooth grip and blocky as all hell and package it with a wood burner dremil tool and call it the ultimate customizable handgun, "You make your own grip and grip texture." I think we are at the point where that is just a matter or time.
I find the recent Trend in really heavy Scopes all over the damn place a little bit upsetting. I don't understand why they can't provide the features that we want such as locking turrets, good reticles, good illumination, and keep the weight under 20 ounces. 16 would even be better.
Leupold seems to be the only manufacturer capable of making decent quality in that weight range. I just wish that they would stop being retarded and offering their really good reticles in only their extremely expensive offerings. Yeah, I'd like something like a Mark 6 that doesn't cost $3,000. Can we make that one happen? Even if it was just in a 3 zoom ratio. I would be totally fine with that.
I really like some of the other offerings out there, if they could just get the weight down.
Expansion of computerized Optics that are NV and day optics.
A long action rifle similar to a Ruger precision Rifle. In fact, a long action ruger rpr would be a dream for me. Use AR style components, no Gunsmithing required. Talk about winning. I can't believe it hasn't happened yet.
Some type of standardized small frame 308. I really like the POF Revolution 308. I haven't shot one yet, but I think it's the right idea.
I wish that 6.5 Grendel would become more of a mainstay. Problem is as there seems to be too many variants going on out there. It's too much of a niche product. To be honest, if the small-framed 308 that you can pretty well shoot any ammo out of you want, really takes off, it might put a nail in the coffin for the Grendel. Not to hate on grandel, I really like all of it. I just get tired of all the bullshit Hoops that a guy has to go through to get into that game. It'd be nice just to call up a company like BCM and be like hey I want one of these.
Probably most of all, but I would like to see the most is a better way to shoot bullets. Things have gotten better, no question about it. But we are still basically shooting the same way we did a very long time ago. Brass case, powder, primer, bullet. Maybe expanding upon the Steelcase and the things is the way to do it. I'd like to see the cost come down. That is The Ultimate Bar of entry for most people, it's not that people don't like to shoot. Most people love to go. I know a lot of people with some really cool guns. Not necessarily cheap guns either. They just can't really afford to go shoot it in any real volume. Even twenty two's aren't super cost-effective like they used to be.
Maybe the future is in single use cases that are some kind of cheaper alloy , and projectiles that are not copper and lead.
Hopefully SteyrAUG will pipe up. IIRC correctly, he has knowledge bombs he can drop on caseless ammo. I know jack and shit about it.
Starting right off with the fact that I never owned a G11, the biggest problem with caseless is heat and cookoffs. Since there is no ejected cartridge typically you have a closed weapon system without an need for an ejection port. So basically you have an oven, even if you devise an open bolt setup which is less than satisfactory for a lot of reasons, you still have an oven.
I think caseless was an idea, but I don't think it's wear it's at. Its like those underwater scuba guns, sure you can make it work, and HK did make one, but it's not going to be the new, next technology that revolutionizes the firearms world.
And I don't think we are going to see the new / next for awhile because the days of Thompson and Browning building designs in their garage are gone. ATF has made it so that there have been no "home designers" since about 1968.
I think Armalite was the last amazing development in the US (AR-10/AR-18) and Glock was the last revolutionary development in Europe (even if he did borrow heavily from existing HK designs).
Since shoulder fired rail guns aren't likely, I think ammo development is where the next change will occur, but again ATF has a strangle hold on anyone who has an idea but can't be passed restrictions to develop it.
I'd just love it if we could actually standardize on an actual round for more than 10 years. We have ARs with 1/12, 1/10, 1/9 and 1/7 twist barrels for 5.56 in 55 -72 grain projectiles.
Off the top of my head, I'd love to see polymer cased ammo explored. This would obviously require chambers specifically designed to support such a cartridge and lock up designs that keep it from exploding. They would also have to survive high temps and pressures and extraction is problematic, but if it could be done ammo costs would be cheap as hell.
I want a semiautomatic Belt feed 12 Gauge........Just because to would be so much fun :dirol:
That and a 7.62 AR that has the same quality and price of a Colt 6920.
The USAS 12 was based of the Atchkisson and looked like a huge M16 with a magazine.
But the Fun Police declared it a destructive device because lol you can't have that much fun.
I remember getting to shoot and almost buy a SPAS 15. It too has an A1 profile and like the 12 can go pump or auto and has skyrocketed in price in the last 15 years.
I agree, doing away with the NFA would open up a lot more innovation.
That would actually be the "sporter clause" of the 1968 GCA, not the NFA. And yeah, that is why box magazine shotguns aren't common.
I want a semiautomatic Belt feed 12 Gauge........Just because to would be so much fun :dirol:
That and a 7.62 AR that has the same quality and price of a Colt 6920.
If the can do it for 40mm, should be able to do it for 12 ga. But I suspect some ATF asshat would declare it a DD.
Doc Safari
03-14-17, 13:55
WINNING
44431
If the can do it for 40mm, should be able to do it for 12 ga. But I suspect some ATF asshat would declare it a DD.
My thoughts exactly.
Singlestack Wonder
03-14-17, 13:59
I'd like to see a single stack Glock in .45ACP.
Sales are declining because people are not concerned with an epic gun grab anymore. It's a buyer's market.
Bingo. The downward turn in sales is a direct response to the gun community re-adjusting to normalcy now that Obama and his gun grabbing pals are no longer in charge. I don't think a lack of innovation is to blame at all.
Either way though, my personal dream would be to see the NFA disappear and see manufacturers go buck wild on developing SBR's and suppressors. There's some cool innovation in that area already but the heavy sales restrictions make it a tough proposal for companies to dump a bunch of money into R&D since there is little hope for return on investment outside of military contracts.
If the can do it for 40mm, should be able to do it for 12 ga. But I suspect some ATF asshat would declare it a DD.
Looks like someone was was thinking the same thing as me.
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/2/1312/thumb_620x2000/saiga-12_belt_400.jpg
and
https://youtu.be/iX7vwivR6cE
6x45mm NATO 100gr BTHP
Definitely agree with the G17/19xG43 idea.
I just want KAC to release an honest to God semi auto Stoner 63 clone. Rifle, Carbine, LMG and maybe take STANAG mags. Robinson Armament made one but it could be a limited deal. I don't need both my kidneys nor my dignity as long as I can have a Stoner 63.
I've thought about getting an airsoft I have such a fancy for it.
I got to shoot a real one and it was not as big as I thought and it was pretty fun.
I'd like to see a single stack Glock in .45ACP.
Full size.. they already have a compact one.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-14-17, 14:38
Hopefully SteyrAUG will pipe up. IIRC correctly, he has knowledge bombs he can drop on caseless ammo. I know jack and shit about it.
My biggest bitch of all is shotguns.
The fact that an off-the-shelf Remington 870 is essentially the exact gun from 1950 is absolutely insane. When the biggest "advancement" to an 870 in almost 70 years is the addition of some cute FDE furniture, it's hard to argue that there's been any innovation.
I would buy the shit out of a box-fed shotgun that was manufactured in the US. Unlike currently available pumps and autos, I could spend more time shooting than I do reloading.
A box-fed version of something like the KSG, that functioned reliably, would be an incremental step forward in terms of technology. Realistically, something like that should have been available about 30 years ago, so the fact that it's not, today, is a fine example of why Remington deserves to see it's stock drop 30% in short order. We're not talking about splitting the atom here. It's not a physics problem, it's an engineering problem...
Remington sold one in Canada for awhile IIRC. If it is pump, doesn't that make things a lot easier to get thru the 'sporting' BS?
I find the recent Trend in really heavy Scopes all over the damn place a little bit upsetting. I don't understand why they can't provide the features that we want such as locking turrets, good reticles, good illumination, and keep the weight under 20 ounces. 16 would even be better.
The scopes have gotten heavy and the bullets light. From 30cal to 6.5 now it seems 6mm is the new hot round. It all depends on the rules of PRS. I think we'll see a new class for lighter rifles and targets that require kinetic energy to knock down. Back to lighter rifles and heavier bullets. Sells new scopes and new barrels....
I do think the real tech would be pistols with integral suppressors. That would be really cool. You see gas-retarded designs like the HK P7 back with Remington, but I don't know if they are really making an impact. That gas delayed blow back system on the P7 gives a fixed barrel, that is about the shortest 4 inch semi I know. I really think it would be an interesting way to go with an integral suppressor.
I think that ballistic computer/sighters will be able to come down in price.
I am likely not alone in the fact that I have enough (gasp) firearms to last me a lifetime. The only thing that is going to drive me to purchase now would be not having to get a tax stamp for a suppressor or SBR.
My sentiments are the same as the bold part above
skywalkrNCSU
03-14-17, 15:01
Maybe it's because I've run out of safe room for long guns (yes I'm going to get another one) but I'm pretty content with what I have that's not NFA. What I would really like is some nightvision that is good and not incredibly expensive. I would love to go do some night hunting but I can't justify it with what good NV costs.
Other than that I just hope ammo prices go down. That and time are my biggest constraints in enjoying my firearms more.
Grand58742
03-14-17, 15:13
Not necessarily development, but I'd like to see more manufacturers work with the 6.5 Grendel. To include loads that aren't as barrel length dependent (if possible)
Polymer framed 1911 in 9mm made by a reputable manufacturer. I know someone was working on the idea of a polymer 1911 some years ago, but it's vaporware from what I understand.
If the NFA and the Hughes Amendment weren't a factor, I'd probably pay good money for a new built American-180 just for fun. Not sure if that's "innovation" but would be a blast (no pun intended)
But we do have to ask the question of whether or not we have reached the pinnacle of conventional firearms designs. Improvements can be made in existing systems, certainly, but really, what else can be done? Caseless ammo is a possibility. Some day the electronics, hardware and power requirements for a railgun will be able to fit into a shoulder fired weapon. But that's Star Wars stuff for the moment.
What's the next big "leap" in firearms evolution?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-14-17, 16:02
A 1911 trigger system with a modern Hi-cap mag. Those 2011 magazine are such a PITA getting choked down to a single feed at the top. I'm guessing it would have to be thicker than a 1911 frame and slide, but no more than a Glock/HK/FNX/M&P 45 handgun. I guess in 9mm it would be even less of an increase. The 2011s show how it could be polymer framed. That trigger bow/sear is so awesome.
Off to the range with my gunsmith buddy to see his latest monstrosities.
I'd like to see a single stack Glock in .45ACP.
The Glock 36? That's already out buddy.
Hshegdyr sidhdheyeyfifishzytsthesuduzb
Eta...
Annnd the two year old niece put her two cents in apparently.
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Hshegdyr sidhdheyeyfifishzytsthesuduzb
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I definitely need one of these in my collection.
I'm waiting for thermal/IR targeting systems to come down in price. Being able to shoot @ night with minimal compromises will be as normal in 10 years as red dot scopes are today.
I'd also like to see better propellants that are insensitive to temperature and work well in short barrels.
Finally, someone also needs to reach back into the firearms production pipeline and figure out how to use modern manufacturing techniques/planning so the lack of extractors or some other little bullshitty part doesn't slow down time to market by months and months. The manufacturing supply chain for firearms and firearms accessories is kind of a joke, IMHO, when compared to other industries.
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 16:50
Exactly.
Most of what's been discussed is incremental improvements that were technically feasible decades ago.
Preference items aside, the big intent I had was to see if the M4C hive mind could conjure up some actual innovation here. We've got some smart dudes up in here, that happen to be shooters.
The single biggest "advancement" in terms of what I've witnessed, is the miniaturization of electronic optics, and the integration thereof with existing handguns. That shit is pretty radical.
One thing, in terms of technological advancement, that could absolutely be realized, is complete recoil dampening/elimination systems. Felt recoil elimination is an engineering problem, not a physics problem. I want a pistol that shoots like a BB gun.
The other area I see as feasible is increased performance out of electronic sighting systems. I mean revolutionary stuff beyond just a reduction in scale.
There's no reason that an intelligent sighting system can't be developed and brought to market for under $2,000.
ATN has an optic that has range-finding, auto AZ/EL correction, and smartphone pairing. If a company like ATN can develop something like that, L3, AP, Triji have zero excuses. There's no reason a software enhancement couldn't integrate object tracking and recognition as well into an optic like that.
Polymer-cased ammunition would be huge. Especially if it was a significant cost-reductive technology.
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but every couple of years when I notice nothing in this industry ever changes, the thought crosses my mind that we've hit peak small-arms technology. I tend to believe that's not the case, and it's more of a matter of laziness, and a lack of need, on the part of the manufacturers. If Joe Sixpack is willing to plunk down $1,000 on a system the patent ran out on 30 years ago, let the cash flow freely...
The past 8 years of being able to sell the living shit out of anything that fired a projectile contrasted with a contracting market, is either going to be a wakeup call for some manufacturers, or, for those asleep at the switch, an eviction notice from the landlord and a wave of employee pink slips.
The firearms industry may have to become a bit more competitive in something other than pricing, or quality of existing products. A new unicorn-horn-dust-coated BCG ain't gonna cut it...
But we do have to ask the question of whether or not we have reached the pinnacle of conventional firearms designs. Improvements can be made in existing systems, certainly, but really, what else can be done? Caseless ammo is a possibility. Some day the electronics, hardware and power requirements for a railgun will be able to fit into a shoulder fired weapon. But that's Star Wars stuff for the moment.
What's the next big "leap" in firearms evolution?
I just want my phased plasma rifle.
For duck huntin'.....
Doc Safari
03-14-17, 16:54
Okay, in that vein I'd like to see a battery-free reticle illumination method that does not involve Tritium and basically lasts forever.
I like Glocks, but they can be improved upon. Just picked up a 320 compact to work on.
What I would like to see is more like the Sig MCX, I would really like the .308 CSASS submission. To the negatives, it's a good system, no troubles with mine. Yes, parts need to be available for purchase.
Bolt guns like the Fix from Q.
6.5 Creedmoor small frame AR's, lightweight with balanced gas systems. Better yet, MCX styled guns.
Of course, be done with NFA.
I like the folding option to store and transport, even carry in some circumstances. Referring to MCX style guns. And yes, while the Law adapter is OK, it's not the answer.
Singlestack Wonder
03-14-17, 17:18
Full size.. they already have a compact one.
Yes full size....(I already have a 36).
Outlander Systems
03-14-17, 17:29
Agreed. Hell, two of mine are GlFOs (Glocks in Frame Only).
Regarding NFA...
If HPA were to pass, the industry as a whole would explode with so many factory, integrally-suppressed systems, it would be a new golden-age for firearms enthusiasts.
I imagine perm'd suppressors on barrels with a 16" length, and hearts appear in my eyes. Just contemplate the available volume of an internal can with the dimensions of a traditional rail interface...
4473'd suppressors would absolutely fuel innovation with a quickness...
I like Glocks, but they can be improved upon. Just picked up a 320 compact to work on...
...Of course, be done with NFA.
I'm waiting for thermal/IR targeting systems to come down in price. Being able to shoot @ night with minimal compromises will be as normal in 10 years as red dot scopes are today.
Not sure about that. I bought my first Aimpoint red dot back in like 1983.
Took a long time to get from there to here.
http://i.imgur.com/jpIZZ1t.jpg
Gen I starlight night scopes go back to the late 1960s. Really didn't become "people affordable" until after the late 90s not counting very old mil surplus. Thermal is an even bigger deal.
I just want a Gen 4 Glock with no finger grooves, factory flat trigger, and factory front serrations. And make the extended slide stop lever standard.
I tried the 320 and just cant get into it.
I just want a Gen 4 Glock with no finger grooves, factory flat trigger, and factory front serrations. And make the extended slide stop lever standard.
I tried the 320 and just cant get into it.
Despite what I said earlier, I'd actually buy this in a 19.
fallenromeo
03-14-17, 17:53
I would like CA to get its head out of its ass personally.
Singlestack Wonder
03-14-17, 19:36
The Glock 36? That's already out buddy.
In a full size configuration....
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-14-17, 22:53
Okay, in that vein I'd like to see a battery-free reticle illumination method that does not involve Tritium and basically lasts forever.
A device the size of a AA battery that takes kinetic/motion energy and turns it into electric energy. Kind of like those shake flashlights, but useful.
Yes, I definitely need one of these in my collection.
She ever figured one out, you're first on the list. Lol
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Hell, if "I am the weapon", I'd settle for being 30 again.
Not really an innovation here. But with all this bullshit going on lately I want an AR lower with Safe Space, Triggered, and "Protest" for the selector markings and Trump 2016: Because **** Your Feelings! as the roll mark.
How about figuring out a propellant that burns so completely that there is no muzzle flash. Or at least burns clear (no visible color to the flame) to the naked eye like some chemicals do.
Eurodriver
03-15-17, 07:57
Real talk - I'm picking up what you're putting down OS.
Lights. Lasers. Optics. They've come a long way.
Hell, I can be in the middle of nowhere and get titties on my phone. But the guts of the weapon and the projectile itself is still a throwback to the 1960s at the latest.
I'd like to see some sort of firing mechanism that reduced recoil, ceaseless projectiles, and maybe even smart projectiles fully knowing they would be cost prohibitive for decades for anyone but the .mil.
Real talk - I'm picking up what you're putting down OS.
Lights. Lasers. Optics. They've come a long way.
Hell, I can be in the middle of nowhere and get titties on my phone. But the guts of the weapon and the projectile itself is still a throwback to the 1960s at the latest.
I'd like to see some sort of firing mechanism that reduced recoil, ceaseless projectiles, and maybe even smart projectiles fully knowing they would be cost prohibitive for decades for anyone but the .mil.
If someone invents compact fuel cell or new battery technology that puts out real power for a reasonable duration (and is field-ready, not prone to overheat, etc) then we'll see all sorts of cool stuff happen inside firing mechanisms. It'd be sort of ironic if we finally got man-portable rail guns with KE projectiles or directed energy weapons because of electric cars...
Outlander Systems
03-15-17, 09:59
The bolded gives me a half-hard.
...man-portable rail guns with KE projectiles or directed energy weapons because of electric cars...
Real talk - I'm picking up what you're putting down OS.
Lights. Lasers. Optics. They've come a long way.
Hell, I can be in the middle of nowhere and get titties on my phone. But the guts of the weapon and the projectile itself is still a throwback to the 1960s at the latest.
I'd like to see some sort of firing mechanism that reduced recoil, ceaseless projectiles, and maybe even smart projectiles fully knowing they would be cost prohibitive for decades for anyone but the .mil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYZq5frO4rk
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-17, 14:32
Just finished reading an article (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-14/crashing-gun-sales-post-obama-era-causes-mass-layoffs-remington-manufacturing-facili) about declining firearms sales.
Back in February CNN attempted a hit piece on Trump to blame him for sagging economic growth in the firearms industry. Like we're supposed to be mad that he essentially saved the 2nd Amendment. They actually try to sell their propaganda that Obama was good for the firearm industry and that Trump is bad for it. Can't see the forrest through the trees and all that . . . :lol:
How President Trump is bad for the gun industry
Now that a Republican endorsed by the National Rifle Association is in the White House, those supposed villains have disappeared. Sales of guns and ammo are falling, right along with the stocks of gun makers.
Donald Trump is the NRA's chosen one. So why are gun stocks falling now that he's president?
Gun production more than doubled during Obama's tenure in the White House, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And the FBI conducted more than 27 million background checks in 2016, breaking the previous year's record.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/03/news/companies/trump-gun-ammo-sales/
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-17, 14:45
One innovation I would like to see, though not purely firearms, would be programmable flashlight, handheld and weapon mounted. Would be nice to be able to plug the light in my computer, and go, "Hmm, going to be using it indoor so that 1200 lumen deathray really isn't handy, lets roll it back to 300 lumens." Or, "I have this light for EDC, and again I don't need a 3000 lumen light saber with a 2 minute run time, lets set it at 400 lumen and 3 hour run time. That's a nice balance." Or being able to add strobe or remove strobe function, or single or multiple outputs. Or any number of other others options. I am tired of looking at lights and seeing lumens going up and up but run time going down and down. I'd love to have a EDC light in the 200-400 range with a 6 hour run time on 2 cr123s.
Ever been to Candle Power Forum?
Custom shit over there that will boggle the mind.
I think one of the limits to handheld light innovation is the power supply, battery technology is dated and limits capabilities.
Also I've always gotten the impression that manufactures like SF don't like consumers building custom torches with their components, maybe that's just me. I've built several lights using SF parts from here and there but the direction they are going is to make their lights self contained where you can't really plug and play parts on the newer gen lights.
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-17, 15:17
Some type of standardized small frame 308. I really like the POF Revolution 308. I haven't shot one yet, but I think it's the right idea.
POF is way to clunky for me, they need to be more streamlined.
I picked up a DD5V1 (16" 7.62 NATO) for $2400 before the election. That is the direction I'd go if you want a smallish 7.62 around that price point.
Not really an innovation here. But with all this bullshit going on lately I want an AR lower with Safe Space, Triggered, and "Protest" for the selector markings and Trump 2016: Because **** Your Feelings! as the roll mark.
Spikes. If they can make a pirate lower, I'm sure they can make a protest lower.
Semi automatic, belt fed, .338 Lapua Magnum w/optics interface.
Pump feed for those behind enemy lines.
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-17, 16:21
Most of what's been discussed is incremental improvements that were technically feasible decades ago.
One thing, in terms of technological advancement, that could absolutely be realized, is complete recoil dampening/elimination systems. Felt recoil elimination is an engineering problem, not a physics problem. I want a pistol that shoots like a BB gun.
The Ruskies are ahead of the curve here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJs9sBBjLls
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but every couple of years when I notice nothing in this industry ever changes, the thought crosses my mind that we've hit peak small-arms technology. I tend to believe that's not the case, and it's more of a matter of laziness, and a lack of need, on the part of the manufacturers. If Joe Sixpack is willing to plunk down $1,000 on a system the patent ran out on 30 years ago, let the cash flow freely.
Just prior to the sun setting on the AWB in '03 I was conversing with a dealer at a gun show that had a table full of Robinson Armament rifles. Being a VEPR K owner I stopped and shot the shit with him and the convo turned to how American firearm innovation was essentially dead. Robinson was not only importing the VEPR from Russia but also giving us a Stoner 63 variant and were developing their RAV02 MC based off the Stoner which lead to their SCAR entry the XCR.
The SCAR program really brought some cool specimens about from the various manufactures. But other than that at the time due to the Clinton AWB there was really no innovation, fast forward today we're thirteen years past the AWB and our nation has been in a constant state of war since 2001. We have come a long way in a short amount of time.
I loved the old History Channel series Tales of the Gun; "To understand the gun is to better understand history."
Here is a little perspective . . .
10th century the Chinese formulate black powder that was utilized for scaring away evil spirits. Shortly after they came up with early versions of cannon and hand gun (not pistols).
13th century Europeans begin to fashion cast iron tubes and use the combustion of black powder to hurl all manner of projectiles towards their foes in the form of cannon and hand gun (not pistols).
15th century Europeans began to develop rifled bores.
18th century rifled bores really came into their own during the Revolutionary War.
In 1808 Swiss gunsmith Jean Samuel Pauly in association with French gunsmith François Prélat began experimenting with self contained cartridges.
In 1826 Henri-Gustave Delvigne, a French Officer invented a breech with abrupt shoulders on which a spherical bullet was rammed down until it caught the rifling grooves.
In 1847 another French Officer Claude-Étienne Minié improved upon Delvigne's work and invented the Minié ball, the first concave bullet. Something like 90% of all Civil War casualties were results from Minié's soft lead concave "bullet".
In 1861 The first widely used metallic cartridge case was patented by F.E. Schneider of Paris in England.
In 1884 French chemist Paul Vieille invented smokeless powder which further revolutionized firearms technology.
Not sure about that. I bought my first Aimpoint red dot back in like 1983.
Took a long time to get from there to here.
http://i.imgur.com/jpIZZ1t.jpg
Gen I starlight night scopes go back to the late 1960s. Really didn't become "people affordable" until after the late 90s not counting very old mil surplus. Thermal is an even bigger deal.
I think the big difference right now is that we have highly advanced infrastructure in place to drive down costs around detect/display technology very quickly. From understanding what's going on with quantum physics to manufacturing advances (look at what they're doing with quantum dots in TVs) and lab-created materials, we're on the launchpad for a rocket ride.
I think the big difference right now is that we have highly advanced infrastructure in place to drive down costs around detect/display technology very quickly. From understanding what's going on with quantum physics to manufacturing advances (look at what they're doing with quantum dots in TVs) and lab-created materials, we're on the launchpad for a rocket ride.
The point I was making was Gen 3 night vision pretty much costs about what it did 15 years ago.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-15-17, 18:18
The Ruskies are ahead of the curve here.
Just prior to the sun setting on the AWB in '03 I was conversing with a dealer at a gun show that had a table full of Robinson Armament rifles. Being a VEPR K owner I stopped and shot the shit with him and the convo turned to how American firearm innovation was essentially dead. Robinson was not only importing the VEPR from Russia but also giving us a Stoner 63 variant and were developing their RAV02 MC based off the Stoner which lead to their SCAR entry the XCR.
The SCAR program really brought some cool specimens about from the various manufactures. But other than that at the time due to the Clinton AWB there was really no innovation, fast forward today we're thirteen years past the AWB and our nation has been in a constant state of war since 2001. We have come a long way in a short amount of time.
I loved the old History Channel series Tales of the Gun; "To understand the gun is to better understand history."
Here is a little perspective . . .
10th century the Chinese formulate black powder that was utilized for scaring away evil spirits. Shortly after they came up with early versions of cannon and hand gun (not pistols).
13th century Europeans begin to fashion cast iron tubes and use the combustion of black powder to hurl all manner of projectiles towards their foes in the form of cannon and hand gun (not pistols).
15th century Europeans began to develop rifled bores.
18th century rifled bores really came into their own during the Revolutionary War.
In 1808 Swiss gunsmith Jean Samuel Pauly in association with French gunsmith François Prélat began experimenting with self contained cartridges.
In 1826 Henri-Gustave Delvigne, a French Officer invented a breech with abrupt shoulders on which a spherical bullet was rammed down until it caught the rifling grooves.
In 1847 another French Officer Claude-Étienne Minié improved upon Delvigne's work and invented the Minié ball, the first concave bullet. Something like 90% of all Civil War casualties were results from Minié's soft lead concave "bullet".
January 23, 1855: John Moses Browning born.
In 1861 The first widely used metallic cartridge case was patented by F.E. Schneider of Paris in England.
In 1884 French chemist Paul Vieille invented smokeless powder which further revolutionized firearms technology.
FIFY..
Thermal and gated NV fusion clip on optic that is the size of a aimpoint Comp series and has great battery life, priced at/under $4k.
The bolded gives me a half-hard.
I have visions of the weaponry in mass effect 3 going through my head.
If we could only be so lucky....
I think that ammunition technology hasn't changed much since the 1920's or 30's. The exception would be in expanding projectiles with emphasis on handgun bullets. Of course, development of slower rifle powders has allowed increased velocity without raising pressure. Roy Weathersby introduced his first high velocity rifle cartridges in the 1940's: 240 Weathersby Magnum in 1940, 270 WM in1943, and the 300 WM in 1948. Much earlier the 30-06 arrived in 1906, the 270 Win in 1925, and the famous 300 Holland and Holland Magnum also in 1925. Today performance of these rounds has improved somewhat only because of improved powders.
Winchester and Remington and one government arsenal conducted extensive research in weapons and cartridge design during the two world wars and continued between this time and afterwards up to the present to some extent. After years of research the M1 rifle appeared in 1936. John Browning--as everybody knows--contributed greatly to ordnance research. He died in 1926. Perhaps our rifle technology dates back not to the 60's or 50's but maybe earlier. Designers no doubt studied earlier designs, improved them, and probably copied or used some elements of them in new weapons. Jumping to the present day, I think--as has already been stated--that market forces will determine new product introduction. I don't see much happening except some manufacturing companies will fail. Since 1980 a very large number of gun makers and some importers have disappeared because of market forces. The number of new shooters has been steadily decreasing and the way that society views gun ownership is becoming less positive. These are two factors that will shape market forces.
We must not forget that local gun shops also will suffer during this soft market. Despite facts that may not be obvious to all shooters, we need lgs. Many have expertise not available on the internet. Many will trade guns fairly; some have competent gun smiths; and some employ knowledgeable specialists. My point is that we should support them.
Back to the tread. I'd like to see excellent optics offered at lower prices. I'd like to see current makers adopt higher quality control allowing them to offer fewer lemons. I'd like to see other handgun makers produce service handguns matching CZ accuracy standards.
sevenhelmet
03-18-17, 11:12
I'd like to see advances in ergonomics, such as recoil control that doesn't require a super-loud brake and still preserves reliability and accuracy. Things like a lower bore axis and internal recoil absorption, for example. Thanks to Newton's third law, all that reaction force has to go somewhere, but half the force over twice the time might be way more comfortable for the shooter, for example. This seems particularly applicable to high-power rifles and shotguns, but could apply to handguns as well, especially the competitive circuit where people spend BIG MONEY to make adjustments to their "race guns". In 2017, it seems like we could be doing better than obnoxiously loud muzzle brakes and aftermarket butt pads.
Another one is coatings and materials. There is a lot of gimmicky stuff on the market, but advances in materials and manufacturing processes could lead to firearms which have a longer lifespan, are more accurate, and require less maintenance. I realize better is the enemy of good enough, and the better quality guns are already pretty solidly engineered. But I bet there are some clever gun guys out there with good ideas to make some serious improvements, maybe even something revolutionary. Ammo material changes could be a big one.
What about that Trackpoint Smartgun system?
If it worked and were more affordable, oh yeah.
RetroRevolver77
03-18-17, 11:51
I'd like to see some basic parameters put in place for durability, reliability, and ease of maintenance that US modern weapons have yet to achieve. The Russians built the AK seventy years ago that can fire underwater, survive a three story drop onto concrete, and is piston fed but also inertia driven. It's stupid simple in concept. You can maintain the rifle with gloved hands and you can strip the rifle down to basic components in seconds along with clearing debris from the chamber area with your finger while just dumping out the dirt inside. It comes with a barrel mounted cleaning rod- which can be used for dislodging stuck shell casings should that need arise. Has a reciprocating charging handle that can also work as a forward assist or even to dislodge a stuck casing. It has a static ejector that isn't reliant on spring pressure necessarily to remove rounds from the chamber. I love the AK and wish we could come up with something along the same lines but improved upon that. I think the AR18 could have been developed along those lines and improved upon but the SCAR is not the answer- it can't even survive an eight foot fall onto concrete or someone accidentally falling on it.
Maaaaaan, you are giving AKs too much credit. Tell me how an AR15 wouldn't survive a 3 story drop.
It has become forgotten lore by this point, but the trap door in the buttstock where guys stashed dope was originally used to store a cleaning rod.
They already have an improved AK. It is called the Sig 55x. Expensive but it takes down like an AR and works like an AK.
As good as they are (and they ARE good), I still have to give the edge to the AR.
Outlander Systems
03-18-17, 12:18
I'm completely tracking dafuq out of this post.
Brakes, fiddled-with-springs, and mouse-fart custom loads are low-hanging-fruit/Bullshit.
Bore-axis geometry, and outside-the-box thinking could yield a pistol suitable for breaking convention in terms of tangible performance increases.
The problem is that no one wants to reinvent the wheel.
I guarangoddamntee you, if someone were to create a system that was capable of firing legit, off-the-shelf ammunition, and could reduce split times it would sell bigly.
The Hudson H9, on paper, is one step forward, one step backwards.
They release a handgun that, again, on paper, "reduces perceived recoil," and then proceed to not, from the factory, provide the option for an RDS.
I'd like to see advances in ergonomics, such as recoil control that doesn't require a super-loud brake and still preserves reliability and accuracy. Things like a lower bore axis and internal recoil absorption, for example. Thanks to Newton's third law, all that reaction force has to go somewhere, but half the force over twice the time might be way more comfortable for the shooter, for example. This seems particularly applicable to high-power rifles and shotguns, but could apply to handguns as well, especially the competitive circuit where people spend BIG MONEY to make adjustments to their "race guns". In 2017, it seems like we could be doing better than obnoxiously loud muzzle brakes and aftermarket butt pads.
Another one is coatings and materials. There is a lot of gimmicky stuff on the market, but advances in materials and manufacturing processes could lead to firearms which have a longer lifespan, are more accurate, and require less maintenance. I realize better is the enemy of good enough, and the better quality guns are already pretty solidly engineered. But I bet there are some clever gun guys out there with good ideas to make some serious improvements, maybe even something revolutionary. Ammo material changes could be a big one.
RetroRevolver77
03-18-17, 12:24
Maaaaaan, you are giving AKs too much credit. Tell me how an AR15 wouldn't survive a 3 story drop.
It has become forgotten lore by this point, but the trap door in the buttstock where guys stashed dope was originally used to store a cleaning rod.
They already have an improved AK. It is called the Sig 55x. Expensive but it takes down like an AR and works like an AK.
As good as they are (and they ARE good), I still have to give the edge to the AR.
The SIG 55X series has some design flaws and while ergonomics were vastly improved over a standard AK, it isn't a great enough improvement to offset those flaws- i.e. action spring wrapped around the gas piston causing spring fatigue and it's additional weight to incorporate ergnomics. As far as my personal benchmark criteria for simple yet durable design we would have to design something from the ground up. Those bench marks to include; being able to fire underwater repeatedly without blowing up or blowing out cartridges from the magazine, survive a 30 foot drop test onto concrete, have a static ejector that cannot be filled with debris, have a reciprocating charging handle to use as a forward assist or clear stuck shell casings, be able be field stripped/maintained with gloved hands, have a full length non segmented cleaning rod mounted under the barrel to clear stuck shell casings, have a paddle style release that cannot be frozen over a push button magazine release- basically the AK 12 with a barrel mounted cleaning rod or the new HK 433 with a paddle mag release along with a reciprocating charging handle/barrel mounted cleaning rod- would be my ideal rifle.
7n6
Outlander Systems
03-18-17, 12:30
TrackingPoint is absolutely the direction things are headed.
One thing that could be done is to get the idea of glass out of the way.
OLED display and small, smartphone-style cameras could create an optic the size of an EOTech window.
Since we're straight up digital at this point, your EOTech window-sized optic could zoom. Would the image get pixelated? Sure. Depending on the magnification.
Would you buy the shit out of a digital imaging optic with the ability to be micro-sized, with the ability to zoom? You damn sure would.
An on-board rangefinder could automatically adjust your EL once zeroed, and since we've gone digital, your optic could also have digital night vision on deck based on what the CMOS sensor is like.
****ing winning.
What about that Trackpoint Smartgun system?
If it worked and were more affordable, oh yeah.
The SIG 55X series has some design flaws and while ergonomics were vastly improved over a standard AK, it isn't a great enough improvement to offset those flaws- i.e. action spring wrapped around the gas piston causing spring fatigue and it's additional weight to incorporate ergnomics. As far as my personal benchmark criteria for simple yet durable design we would have to design something from the ground up. Those bench marks to include; being able to fire underwater repeatedly without blowing up or blowing out cartridges from the magazine, survive a 30 foot drop test onto concrete, have a static ejector that cannot be filled with debris, have a reciprocating charging handle to use as a forward assist or clear stuck shell casings, be able be field stripped/maintained with gloved hands, have a full length non segmented cleaning rod mounted under the barrel to clear stuck shell casings, have a paddle style release that cannot be frozen over a push button magazine release- basically the AK 12 with a barrel mounted cleaning rod or the new HK 433 with a paddle mag release along with a reciprocating charging handle/barrel mounted cleaning rod- would be my ideal rifle.
7n6
Where have you seen spring fatigue as a real issue in the 55x series? I've fired back to back mags on fullauto through a 551 post sample, immediately pulled the piston and while the piston head is warm, the spring is not. I think this is s non-issue. I do agree that the 55x is too heavy. This could be solved.
TrackingPoint is absolutely the direction things are headed.
One thing that could be done is to get the idea of glass out of the way.
OLED display and small, smartphone-style cameras could create an optic the size of an EOTech window.
Since we're straight up digital at this point, your EOTech window-sized optic could zoom. Would the image get pixelated? Sure. Depending on the magnification.
Would you buy the shit out of a digital imaging optic with the ability to be micro-sized, with the ability to zoom? You damn sure would.
An on-board rangefinder could automatically adjust your EL once zeroed, and since we've gone digital, your optic could also have digital night vision on deck based on what the CMOS sensor is like.
****ing winning.
All excellent points. I am leery of a purely digital system, as it will eventually fail. I think incorporating the design features you mentioned into a clip-on system, while keeping a conventional optic is a better failsafe. If the EO system goes down, the standard optic is still usable.
Oh, and this is interesting:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/16/new-revic-pmr428-scope-fully-integrated-ballistic-solver-hud/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-03-18&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
Why is the firing under water capability important?
RetroRevolver77
03-18-17, 15:06
Where have you seen spring fatigue as a real issue in the 55x series? I've fired back to back mags on fullauto through a 551 post sample, immediately pulled the piston and while the piston head is warm, the spring is not. I think this is s non-issue. I do agree that the 55x is too heavy. This could be solved.
I owned a couple of the cheap SIG 556 series and I didn't really care for them compared to my Arsenal 106FR's. Now given they were the SIG 556 US made variants, it was the 55X design itself I didn't care for. Overall the 55X style was very front heavy, bulky and overall unloaded weight for similar 16" barrels was the same as the 106FR loaded.
Why is the firing under water capability important?
If a weapon is say partially submerged or suddenly gets submerged- you don't want it blowing up on the operator.
I guess the Army Divers, Navy SEALs, and umpteen Marines of all pedigree don't know about ARs and water. Someone should tell them.
I have a 553 (shouts to Josh. They are unobtanium now. Glad I got mine) and have some trigger time behind the older 551. (albeit a day's worth).
They are heavier but even in pistol format, it feels like a sensible weight.
An AK is lighter but not near as user friendly or optics capable or accurate.
The "spring fatigue" is on the 552 which is obsolete.
I wouldn't compare a SAN 55x to a Sigarms 556. Ever.
Everyone thinks the AK is super rugged for some reason. No.
It plagiarizes the Garand and Remington Model 8.
Their only real "selling point" was if you claimed Communist affiliation; your country's government got a bunch for free.
Everybody's been trying to make them better ever since 1958. The Finns came closest but even then.....naw. The Swiss got it right around the late 80s. But it is essentially its own system.
If you are a collector and like AKs, cool.
But they are primitive. The AR 180 has more untapped potential.
I am still waiting to hear what is supposed to happen if I dropped my aluminum and steel AR15 off the third story that would render it inoperable.
Furniture cracking does not count.
I dare say any well made G3 eclipses any AK if ARs are not a consideration.
All an AR asks is lube and a little education. Not unreasonable.
But to each his own.
AK pattern rifles are a huge step backwards
RetroRevolver77
03-18-17, 18:58
I guess the Army Divers, Navy SEALs, and umpteen Marines of all pedigree don't know about ARs and water. Someone should tell them.
I think they are switching to HK piston AR rifles for a reason, the only reason I could think of would be for use around water- less prone to failure in that type of environment.
I have a 553 (shouts to Josh. They are unobtanium now. Glad I got mine) and have some trigger time behind the older 551. (albeit a day's worth).
Nice.
They are heavier but even in pistol format, it feels like a sensible weight.
My SLR 106UR weighs 6.3 pounds with empty magazine.
An AK is lighter but not near as user friendly or optics capable or accurate.
AK's are an old design but they have a lot of aftermarket support including optics mounting but overall- my 74's and 106's hang with my AR's for accuracy.
The "spring fatigue" is on the 552 which is obsolete.
The gas system overall wasn't as self leveling as an AK but also would lend itself to likely running quieter when suppressed.
I wouldn't compare a SAN 55x to a Sigarms 556. Ever.
Wasn't comparing quality, comparing overall design- didn't care for the SIG 55X design.
Everyone thinks the AK is super rugged for some reason. No.
The AK can be fired underwater without blowing up, the 74M and 100 series can be dropped from three stories onto concrete without being rendered inoperable, and generally AK's can survive quite a bit of abuse considering.
It plagiarizes the Garand and Remington Model 8.
All rifles plagiarize other rifles to some degree.
Their only real "selling point" was if you claimed Communist affiliation; your country's government got a bunch for free.
It's a good simple rifle for any basic soldier and has wide distribution globally.
Everybody's been trying to make them better ever since 1958. The Finns came closest but even then.....naw. The Swiss got it right around the late 80s. But it is essentially its own system.
I think the AK 12 has some potential.
If you are a collector and like AKs, cool.
I own a little of everything.
But they are primitive. The AR 180 has more untapped potential.
Yes for sure.
I am still waiting to hear what is supposed to happen if I dropped my aluminum and steel AR15 off the third story that would render it inoperable.
I've only seen one test where they dropped an AR onto concrete from about twenty feet and bent the buffer tube.
Furniture cracking does not count.
True.
I dare say any well made G3 eclipses any AK if ARs are not a consideration.
Somewhat, AK's are faster to operate and easier to clear malfunctions along with field stripping to get back running again.
All an AR asks is lube and a little education. Not unreasonable.
All my AR's now are DI.
But to each his own.
Agreed.
AK pattern rifles are a huge step backwards.
Ergonomics wise I agree but overall simplicity and durability wise- disagree, AK's have their place.
I own AK's, AR's, AUG's, G3's, FAL's, and an M1A.
My SLR 106's are my go to rifles.
7n6
Outlander Systems
03-18-17, 19:11
@JoshNC
That Revic PMR428 is champion grade looking shit.
Thanks for sharing that.
ETA: wut Firefly said. To each, his own, but I view AKs as an anachronism.
You have not convinced me. But you made a point by point argument.
Military diving/amphib is not new and has seen at least 50 years of ARs by now.
I think it depends on how it falls. One time out of so many is not conclusive. If it was dropped sideways I doubt it would happen esp. w/ fixed stock.
I am pretty sure I could chuck an AK the right way and destroy the gas tube or bolt group.
My legit "I am leaving forever" gun is a stock 6920 , a ruck full of GI mags, and some krylon.
The only reason why it would not be my ECC would be because screw hauling a bunch of 308.
However, I would never be in that position.
I disagree. An AK is better than nothing but would never be a first choice. I regretted every AK purchase and all were sold or traded for a pricier AR.
But if you like it, have fun
I own AK's, AR's, AUG's, G3's, FAL's, and an M1A.
My SLR 106's are my go to rifles.
7n6
Your collection is not complete without at least one specimen from the Swiss SIG 55x series. Not to mention the AR18 derivatives. :)
RetroRevolver77
03-18-17, 19:41
I would like to see a modernized AR18, not the SCAR either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyrKXjt-HRA
7n6
Moose-Knuckle
03-19-17, 03:46
It comes with a barrel mounted cleaning rod- which can be used for dislodging stuck shell casings should that need arise.
I remember reading a post by Kyle Defoor when he had his SME sub-forum here where he talked about always having a full length (not sectional) cleaning rod strapped to his AR's for this very reason. Then there was that video of that merc fighting ISIS who got a stuck shell case in the middle of a firefight, yikes.
Tell me how an AR15 wouldn't survive a 3 story drop.
I am still waiting to hear what is supposed to happen if I dropped my aluminum and steel AR15 off the third story that would render it inoperable.
Furniture cracking does not count.
You ever see that pic of an M4 with a bent receiver extension after being dropped that was floating around? I googled it for a minute but couldn't find it.
Here is what one of our Industry Professionals posted in a thread on the subject matter:
1. Tube was dented so bad that the buffer stuck back - cause was falling from a moving vehicle*
2. Tube broke off at the castle nut - cause was a vehicle crash.
3. Tube bent at the back of receiver and tube was crooked - cause was using the rifle as a step to get over a wall.
4. Tube cracked at threads - cause was rifle thrown into a wood and concrete abutment.
ETA: * rifle was most likely ran over by following vehicle.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?39561-Have-you-ever-had-witnessed-a-receiver-extension-failure
I normally don't weigh in on AR vs. AK debates but since we're here . . .
An AK is lighter but not near as user friendly or optics capable or accurate.
User friendly depends on the user. Watch vids of LAV, Travis Haley, Sonny Puzikas run an AK. As for optics Russian Alpha doesn't have a problem mounting RDS on theirs and US aftermarket like RS Regulate and Ultimak make mounting optics a breeze. It's the Indian not the arrow when it comes to accuracy on man sized targets minute of asshole.
Everyone thinks the AK is super rugged for some reason. No.
Here is a CHICOM Type 56 taken off a poacher in Africa he was using to bag game with in 2016.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1645/26296943636_1c72fa11c6_z.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1446/26256657721_fa6e775246_z.jpg
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?182719-African-Poacher-s-AK-Energizer-Bunny
Their only real "selling point" was if you claimed Communist affiliation; your country's government got a bunch for free.
The Czechs said no thank you and went with the Vz. 58.
I've read that the Finns and Israelis have stores of Russian/CHICOM Kalashnikovs in reserve to pass out to every last man, woman, and child in the event of "the big one".
Outlander Systems
03-19-17, 06:47
I don't know how this turned into a discussion about antiques, but since it did...
https://youtu.be/dgpEuCUm6SE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4GSHIAQez0
I could also post a pic of the nice Hmong man with the old M16A1 still living in the mountains to this day.
I do not consider Sonny Puzikas to be a scholarly source.
Meh, I'm not looking to defend ARs from AKs.
I do think the AR-18 has a lot of still untapped potential that has been imitated but not truly copied.
I am more interested in the B&T offerings than the HK 433. I think it will come out in the wash to be kind of pointless like the XM8. You have the 416 right there. But from what I have read they want it use their multitudes of G36 magazines instead of using normal AR magazines like everyone else in the world.
I could well be wrong. We shall see.
FlyingHunter
03-19-17, 12:14
Thinking ahead, way ahead...I think the next revolution, not evolution will be the projectile itself. I'm thinking the military's latest generation laser or electromagnetic rail guns coming down to handheld size.
Outlander Systems
03-19-17, 12:25
Ultimately? Yes.
This is going to be dependent upon significant increases in battery storage and output current.
IIRC, 100kw is the threshold for legit weapons-grade DEWs.
Thinking ahead, way ahead...I think the next revolution, not evolution will be the projectile itself. I'm thinking the military's latest generation laser or electromagnetic rail guns coming down to handheld size.
FlyingHunter
03-19-17, 12:31
Ultimately? Yes.
This is going to be dependent upon significant increases in battery storage and output current.
IIRC, 100kw is the threshold for legit weapons-grade DEWs.
Yes - Battery technology is, at least in my opinion, at a threshold for breakthrough development opportunity. Tesla, military applications, even smart phones that last all day are using relatively old tech.
From MIT:
http://news.mit.edu/2016/lithium-metal-batteries-double-power-consumer-electronics-0817
Can you imagine when a couple of D batteries charge your car for a couple of days? I say that with some sadness as the V8 sound of my Stang GT is truly therapeutic.
Outlander Systems
03-19-17, 12:39
Good link.
If Moore's Law applied to battery/energy storage devices, we'd have serious hardware...
Currently, a 100kw battery is the size of a refrigerator and weighs almost 1,000 lbs. I don't wanna mess with the math, but that would probably only be good for a single-shot weapons-grade pew-pew.
In 50 or so years, caliber discussions will be based on power output.
USMC_03's grandson will pen an article entitled, "Why Raytheon? Why 200kw?"
RetroRevolver77
03-19-17, 16:31
[video=youtube;s4GSHIAQez0]
I do think the AR-18 has a lot of still untapped potential that has been imitated but not truly copied.
Everyone is copying our designs and selling them back to us.
Moose-Knuckle
03-20-17, 03:50
Kabooms happen to all manner of firearms, generally they are ammo related. There's a long thread about a recent Colt KB in the technical sub-forum now.
As for future develpments the Kalashnikov will be with us for a long time to come as will the G3 and FAL.
Old war horses like the AK will see retro fit kits with targeting systems, holo sights, and airburst rounds like we saw in Blomkamp's Elysium. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that. There will always be "a need" for inexpensive readily available small arms.
Thinking ahead, way ahead...I think the next revolution, not evolution will be the projectile itself. I'm thinking the military's latest generation laser or electromagnetic rail guns coming down to handheld size.
Ultimately? Yes.
This is going to be dependent upon significant increases in battery storage and output current.
IIRC, 100kw is the threshold for legit weapons-grade DEWs.
"RESTRICTED: MIL/LE ONLY"
RobertTheTexan
03-20-17, 14:32
I'm not intimately familiar with these guys but it seems that when some companies try to "innovate" the mil spec community (I'm in that crowd I guess) doesn't want to have anything to do with them because they also focus on "pretty" companies like Cobalt Kinetics, I think if you asked them would say they are innovating, but to me? Improving doesn't always equate innovation. And it seems that improvement in their eyes isn't always improvement in the hardcore mil spec community's eyes. A better BCG or fancier trigger aren't innovations to me. A new platform that innovates laser designated targets with a specialized projectile would be cool. But to me that would diminish the art and skill of the long range shooter and create a bunch of skill-less mindless geek-knobs making 1500 yd shots.
I read about a "rail gun" that used magnetic force to propel a ball bearing so far it broke the speed of something and created a rift in the space time continuum and blew the hell outta stuff. Joe Nobody wrote it. I would call that innovative. But not a fancy light weight BCG that uses 28% less energy to cycle a round.
Note: I only used Cobalt Kinetics because I remember a post a guy made about having received one in a trade and everyone was telling him to get rid of it and get a KAC. I'm not dialed into their products other than a brief read of their website.
And 1+ Docsherms 7.62 as good as a 6920 especially since I'm building a frankengun of that caliber and it's a PITA big time.
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GLOCK 19 with a molded beavertail and RTF-3 (slightly larger "pyramids") with the trigger guard already undercut, LAV mag release and slide stop and APEX FRE. [emoji1433][emoji1433][emoji1433]
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Outlander Systems
03-20-17, 17:18
LOL!
What about pre-ban Energy Weapons?
"RESTRICTED: MIL/LE ONLY"
I can see Skrid Low now in the back of his Cutlass
"Yo dawg, I gots me deez Litiyum battries, cuz. 100 killerwatts, mane. Guaranteed not to leak or be radioactive and sheeyit. I also gots me deez here Westinghouses and G.E.s, mane. I take cash, grass, and Chrome 9s."
Too many DEWs on the street, y'all. All these drive by phased plasma shootings.
It's just roofless, mane. Roofless
Outlander Systems
03-20-17, 17:35
"A 20Hz rate-of-fire is too much. The civilian versions need to be limited to a maximum of 2 cycles-per-second. No honest man needs 20Hz weapons."
RobertTheTexan
03-20-17, 18:04
"A 20Hz rate-of-fire is too much. The civilian versions need to be limited to a maximum of 2 cycles-per-second. No honest man needs 20Hz weapons."
I think you just violated my 2nd amendment rights. :jester:
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WINNING
44431
Yeah, and you could detach the little phaser for CCW. Slide it in your pocket like a Ruger LCP or such.
I want to see top rail handgun options with a QD "return to zero" small footprint Eotech type red dot.
I don't see fixed red dots being the wave of the future because of holster and CCW considerations. Same problem that we saw with weapon mounted lights on handguns. They do make holsters for them, but it's mostly a PITA especially for conceal carry.
Glock make a pistol more like an M&P. The SCAR 17 drop in price to around $1850, and maybe the ATF to do away with the NFA so I can have a SBR without a tax stamp.
I want to see top rail handgun options with a QD "return to zero" small footprint Eotech type red dot.
I don't see fixed red dots being the wave of the future because of holster and CCW considerations. Same problem that we saw with weapon mounted lights on handguns. They do make holsters for them, but it's mostly a PITA especially for conceal carry.
Actually this brings up an idea to me. What about new designed being designed from the ground up not to just use a weapon mount light, laser, or nose picker, but being built from the ground up with them built in. We are bordering on the point where lights aren't really needing to get any brighter for most CC needs, and if the head is the part that is going to be swapped, design in the ability to do so. Plus, miniaturization. For a handgun, the argument can be made that it isn't a huge advantage. But, it could streamline the weapon to some degree, and done right, it could be a big deal. For a long gun, however, a integrally designed light and laser option could be a real advantage, I dare even say, as much as I despise the phrase a game changer. Not because of the fact that we use them day in and out, but, if done right, allowing the power source to be moved away from the front of the gun and towards the rear aiding in helping balance the rifle as well as making it more streamlined, allowing fewer shadowing issues, and allowed laser to bore alignment and ease of placement of the foregrip or activation button/s if done right.
Actually this brings up an idea to me. What about new designed being designed from the ground up not to just use a weapon mount light, laser, or nose picker, but being built from the ground up with them built in. We are bordering on the point where lights aren't really needing to get any brighter for most CC needs, and if the head is the part that is going to be swapped, design in the ability to do so. Plus, miniaturization. For a handgun, the argument can be made that it isn't a huge advantage. But, it could streamline the weapon to some degree, and done right, it could be a big deal. For a long gun, however, a integrally designed light and laser option could be a real advantage, I dare even say, as much as I despise the phrase a game changer. Not because of the fact that we use them day in and out, but, if done right, allowing the power source to be moved away from the front of the gun and towards the rear aiding in helping balance the rifle as well as making it more streamlined, allowing fewer shadowing issues, and allowed laser to bore alignment and ease of placement of the foregrip or activation button/s if done right.
I wouldn't want it to be integral. Everyone has their favorite brand, not everyone is satisfied with Streamlight and not everyone is willing to pay for a SureFire. Also wouldn't want to field strip anything to change batteries, etc.
If the technology moves in that direction, they can be very thin just like LaserMax rail mounted lasers are today compared to maglite size lasers from the 80s. But while lights can become LEDs no thicker than a rail, RDS sights are another matter and will need to be QD to be really practical.
Outlander Systems
03-21-17, 09:01
Glock needs to make the G33 Advance into a reality.
Modular setup. Go from G26 to G17 in a few clickitty-clacks.
http://www.shootgame.fr/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/g33-gauche-pierre-pt.jpg
Averageman
03-21-17, 11:13
Glock needs to make the G33 Advance into a reality.
Modular setup. Go from G26 to G17 in a few clickitty-clacks.
http://www.shootgame.fr/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/g33-gauche-pierre-pt.jpg
I would agree.
I wouldn't want it to be integral. Everyone has their favorite brand, not everyone is satisfied with Streamlight and not everyone is willing to pay for a SureFire. Also wouldn't want to field strip anything to change batteries, etc.
If the technology moves in that direction, they can be very thin just like LaserMax rail mounted lasers are today compared to maglite size lasers from the 80s. But while lights can become LEDs no thicker than a rail, RDS sights are another matter and will need to be QD to be really practical.
I don't know. i think it could have applications, especially when we aren't dealing with civilian market. And I was thinking something more like a battery compartment in the grip or buttstock, if it requires more than popping open a compartment, then yeah, that is a no go.
As far as permamounted optics, I fully agree no way. Too many different desires for that, especially when you get to long guns.
I don't know. i think it could have applications, especially when we aren't dealing with civilian market. And I was thinking something more like a battery compartment in the grip or buttstock, if it requires more than popping open a compartment, then yeah, that is a no go.
As far as permamounted optics, I fully agree no way. Too many different desires for that, especially when you get to long guns.
I was speaking mostly of handguns and their use for CCW.
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