View Full Version : Looking at Three Ambi Magazine Releases
I’m left handed and several years ago I installed a Troy ambi mag release on one of my first builds. After some original fitment issues which I believe were receiver related and cured with a stone, the Troy worked flawlessly. Well enough that I have used the Troy Ambidextrous Magazine Release on several subsequent builds.
Recently I came across the Knight’s Ambidextrous Magazine Release Assembly on the Brownell’s site. It seemed too inexpensive to be an actual KAC product (LOL) but after checking the Knight’s website and confirming the price, I gladly ordered one.
Shortly after that I read a thread concerning ambidextrous magazine releases and decided I’d get a Norgon Ambi-Catch and do a comparative review. The Norgon’s are pretty pricey, so I picked up a Battle Steel clone from Botach.
Installation of all three of these ambi mag releases is the same as installing a standard mag release.
First let’s see them uninstalled:
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Installed into weapons:
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Troy: The Troy was the first ambi mag release I’d ever installed or used. I found it to be well constructed and easy to manipulate. The easiest way to explain function is that the back of the release lever is wedge shaped on the bottom half, forming a fulcrum. Pushing down/in on the bottom portion of the lever moves the mag catch outward releasing the magazine. The lower you get on the grooved portion of the lever the easier it is to manipulate.
In my normal FOT position the tip of my finger rests just below the bottom of the bolt catch. The tip of my finger touches the ambi-release lever near the top. In this location it is not possible for me to release the magazine because my finger tip is above the wedge on the back of the ambi-release lever. By lowering and straightening my finger I can contact the lever low enough to release the magazine without shifting my grip although I generally shift enough to place the entire pad of my finger on the ambi-release lever. I wear XL gloves, shooters with shorter fingers will have to shift their grip to activate this release.
There is a slight chance that a piece of webbing or other piece of kit could become wedged underneath the Troy release lever. If that occurred it would prevent the ambi release from functioning as long as the webbing remained in place. The standard mag release button would still be functional. I did not do destructive testing to see whether the release lever would separate from the assembly before bending the actual catch itself.
Additionally, the Troy ambi release pivots on the surface of the lower receiver, so you should expect to see some wear marks in that location. These are not apparent while the Troy ambi release is installed.
Knight’s: The Knight’s was the second ambi mag release I tried. The release lever of the Knight’s uses the same fulcrum/pivot principle as the Troy to move the magazine catch outward. The Knight’s lever has the longest extension past the pivot point and, therefore, is by far the easiest of the three samples evaluated to manipulate. The Knight’s also rides against the surface of the receiver so a wear mark is to be expected.
In my normal FOT position my finger is resting on the release lever of the Knight’s. My fingers are long enough that the distal phalanges is beyond the pivot point of the lever and therefore cannot activate the release without bending the finger. Shooters with shorter fingers may not find this to be the case.
There is a greater likelihood of a piece of webbing sliding under the Knight’s release lever. Because of the length of the release lever it is also more likely this could result in damage to the assembly. Once again, I have not done destructive testing to see the likelihood of damage to the actual magazine catch.
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The Knight’s ambi mag release comes with an oversized, round magazine release button to replace the standard button. Initially I installed the assembly with the ODIN Works EMR I already had on the rifle, but later I installed the round Knight’s button. I like it. It doesn’t come back as far as the ODIN Works EMR does but it has more area than the standard release and is as large as most other oversized buttons.
Norgon as cloned by Battle Steel: The internet says that Norgon’s patent has expired on their Ambi-Catch. Botach has produced a copy under the Battle Steel label. At $25.00 for the clone and $82.00 for the original the choice was easy for me to make, especially since I was merely purchasing the item for this review. For purposes of this review I’ll refer to it as the Norgon.
The Norgon differs from the Knight’s and the Troy insofar as the ambi release lever is actually the bolt catch. The lever is attached to the base (shaft which extends through rifle) and as the shooter presses down on the serrated depression surface, the lever pivots on the pivot boss and disengages the engagement surface.
Since the release lever is actually the magazine catch, if the release lever of the Norgon breaks away or comes loose from the base, the rifle no longer has a functional magazine release. The good news is, this is highly unlikely to occur.
When installed on my rifle, the bottom of the release is slightly below the corresponding portion of the receiver. Thus, it is virtually impossible for any portion of a shooter’s equipment to snag the catch and render it inoperable.
In my normal FOT position, the tip of my finger falls naturally onto the serrated surface of the lever. I was not comfortable with this, however after reading this on the Norgon site....By design, the Ambi-Catch™ requires more force to release the magazine when it is fully loaded. The engagement tooth has increased surface area which resists releasing the magazine if the serrated depressing surface is “bumped” slightly......I paid attention and did observe that it requires more pressure to release a loaded magazine using the Norgon clone than with the other releases. This did alleviate my concerns in this area somewhat, other folks may feel differently.
A common concern voiced by other Norgon Ambi-Catch users is the possibility of inadvertently releasing a magazine when locking the bolt to the rear due to the unit’s proximity to the bolt catch. This is a possibility, but to me, taken in context it is not a war stopper.
In my view you lock the bolt to the rear to unload and clear the weapon, in which case the magazine should already be removed. You also lock the bolt to the rear during remedial action, generally removing the magazine is part of the remedial process.
Using the releases: Prior to writing this I had used the Troy release for over a year with no problems, because of that I did not do a dedicated range session with the Troy. I tested/used the Norgon and the Knight’s during two separate range sessions using the same 90 to 100 round drills.
I took two mags of 28 rounds, fired at one target, speed reloaded, came up on the same target then transitioned to the second target and fired the second round (trying to work something aside from reloads). Repeated until empty. I then loaded with a magazine of one round and prepped several magazines with two rounds. Fired one, emergency reload, came up on the same target, transitioned to the next target and fired. Repeated about 12-15 times.
Both the Knight’s and the Norgon worked flawlessly. I didn’t fumble around with either one. As mentioned earlier, I had observed the same results with the Troy.
So what are my conclusions? First of all, emotionally, my favorite release is the Knight’s. I just liked using it the best. Having said that, I would hesitate to recommend putting the Knight’s on a general issue patrol or battle rifle simply because of the possibility of disabling the release by snagging webbing. Another concern would be short fingers laying on top of the release lever in the FOT position. However, as I’ve mentioned, that is probably the area most of our fingers ride when FOT as we are shooting right handed.
As far as I’m concerned the Knight’s is THE 3-gun ambi-mag release
I liked that the Norgon’s release pad is located pretty much exactly opposite of the standard release button. Of the three, IMO, the Norgon is the least likely to be rendered inoperable by outside forces. It also will cause no marring of the receiver’s surface. I felt the Norgon’s weakest point was its close proximity to the bolt catch.
Although I did not test either the Norgon or the Knight’s with BAD levers, it is readily apparent that the Knight’s release is not compatible with a BAD lever. The Norgon release does not cause any mechanical interference, as in rubbing against the lever, but the close proximity of the BAD lever to the Norgon release pad would make using the mag release more difficult. See photo of Norgon with BAD lever installed in next post)
If I was equipping a police department’s patrol rifles with an ambi-release it would be the Troy. Simply because if your finger finds the Troy release it was looking for it. The Troy is also the only one of the three releases I believe would be fully compatible with a BAD lever.
If you asked me which magazine ambi mag release to put on a rifle you were carrying in harm’s way, I would have to recommend the Troy.
I could not add this picture to the above post. I shows the Norgon Ambi-Catch with a BAD lever also installed on the rifle. I feel they are too close for reliable operation.
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Great post and exactly the choice I made for all of my rifles. Much more articulate as to why then I could have written. I tried all 3 and with medium sized hands the Norgon was not as fast for me or as easy to hit. I also put them my rifles while deployed downrange. The only issue I had with Troy was loosing a roll pin on one, which still allowed it to work as a right hander. Troy had me a replacement and the button and roll pin replacements to me in a week. That was one out of probably 8 I've had over the years.
Excellent write up. Here's how I would solve your issues with the Norgon. Ditch the BAD. Too many reasons why to list here. Use an ABC/R http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/ABCR-Augmented-Bolt-CatchRelease-for-AR15M16_p_24.html as it was designed from the ground up to play well with the Norgon. My rifles are set up this way, and run great.
Written by a right hander. YMMV
Sig Sauer also does a nice ambi that I got on my M400 Enhanced rifle. They don't list heaps of parts on their website, but you can call them directly and order them. I can post pics of the installation on my rifle if anyone would like.
ABT
Here's their ambi installed on my M400 with the BAD lever alongside it.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/ABT1974/20160420_200319%203_zps7wxz6lxf.jpg (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ABT1974/media/20160420_200319%203_zps7wxz6lxf.jpg.html)
Great post.
Always been a Norgon ambi, I have a few but the price limits me from putting them on all my guns. I have a troy, it works, but I would not buy another.
What really has me interested in your post is cheap Norgons. I can see the Sig knock off is made in India, I would assume same or china for the Botach one. I like the idea of made in AMerica, but not at over three times the price. I'll pay double for made in USA, not triple.
I'm going to get one Sig, one Botach and compare to my Norgon.
ETA:I now realize the Sig one is not a Norgon clone, I'll just try a Botach one.
What really has me interested in your post is cheap Norgons. I can see the Sig knock off is made in India, I would assume same or china for the Botach one. I like the idea of made in AMerica, but not at over three times the price. I'll pay double for made in USA, not triple.
The Battle Steel has a 'Made in the USA' logo prominently displayed in their photo on the Botach sight.
FWIW Botach shipped quickly on the last two orders I made from them.
Thanks a lot for the excellent review. I'm a southpaw, and have been thinking about trying an ambi mag release.
KAC or HVA are my preferred, with Norgon a close third.
KAC or HVA are my preferred, with Norgon a close third.
I've been looking at the HVA as well as the others that are mentioned in the OP. I'm surprised more aren't running the HVA. I've been waiting for the Forward Controls Design EMR-A to release before I buy one though.
This on looks to be new as well, but I don't know anything about it.
Master of Arms Volkscatch
http://www.tacticallink.com/Master-Of-Arms-Volkscatch-Ambidextrous-Magazine-Release-For-AR15-And-AR10-Style-Rifles.html
The Battle Steel has a 'Made in the USA' logo prominently displayed in their photo on the Botach sight.
FWIW Botach shipped quickly on the last two orders I made from them.
Saw that and ordered one, free shipping too which I was very happy about. Paying 10$ shipping on a 25$ item always sucks. No I guess I just have to see if it ever shows up? I have never ordered from them before, stated it was in stock.
Great write up, it touches on many of the issues, and solutions that we bake into ours (EMR-A). It's quite astonishing to me that users think of things that designers/manufacturers don't.
Yes the ABC/R was from the ground up designed to deal with a particular problem introduced by the Norgon's presence on a receiver, that of interference with the bolt catch's lower paddle. The angled paddle protrudes further from the receiver, and provides a unique surface / sensory feedback that differs from anything a finger will encounter on the receiver, (specifically, the Norgon Ambi-Catch's lever), a good thing to have for fast recognition and in low light / no light environments.
Shown is the original ABC/R. ABC/R v2 due out this month will not have lightening cuts, but will have a thinner and tapered upper paddle to clear wide billet receivers.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrfnorgon_zpsp0fwpk2b.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrfnorgon_zpsp0fwpk2b.jpg.html)
When our (Forward Controls Design) EMR-A (Enhanced Magazine Release, Ambidextrous) gets closer to release in a month or so, we'll talk about its features and how it mitigates some of the concerns.
Couple of things I can share:
EMR-A pivots on the receiver (sorry it wasn't designed to go on safe queens)
Custom made spring included (but not required)
Low profile levers
Will not be compatible with battery assist device levers (was not a consideration)
Optional bundling with EMR (through hole) and EMR-C (blind hole) mag release buttons.
We took into account of force amplification afforded by the lever, and this alone explains the lever choices and inclusion of custom made spring.
More on all this, and more specifically, the aspect of accidental/unintended mag drops, later :D
Great write up, it touches on many of the issues, and solutions that we bake into ours (EMR-A). It's quite astonishing to me that users think of things that designers/manufacturers don't.
Yes the ABC/R was from the ground up designed to deal with a particular problem introduced by the Norgon's presence on a receiver, that of interference with the bolt catch's lower paddle. The angled paddle protrudes further from the receiver, and provides a unique surface / sensory feedback that differs from anything a finger will encounter on the receiver, (specifically, the Norgon Ambi-Catch's lever), a good thing to have for fast recognition and in low light / no light environments.
Shown is the original ABC/R. ABC/R v2 due out this month will not have lightening cuts, but will have a thinner and tapered upper paddle to clear wide billet receivers.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrfnorgon_zpsp0fwpk2b.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrfnorgon_zpsp0fwpk2b.jpg.html)
When our (Forward Controls Design) EMR-A (Enhanced Magazine Release, Ambidextrous) gets closer to release in a month or so, we'll talk about its features and how it mitigates some of the concerns.
Couple of things I can share:
EMR-A pivots on the receiver (sorry it wasn't designed to go on safe queens)
Custom made spring included (but not required)
Low profile levers
We took into account of force amplification afforded by the lever, and this alone explains the lever choices and inclusion of custom made spring.
More on all this, and more specifically, the aspect of accidental/unintended mag drops, later :D
Be looking forward to that!
For a retrofit ambi mag release, Norgon has done a very good job. It has but two minor shortcomings: interference with the bolt catch's lower paddle, and the extra force required to press the lever.
I suspect that Norgon also took into consideration of mechanical advantage from the lever, it has a built-in spring, like the KAC.
So there's the give and take. To address these issues, the lever needs to be further away from the bolt catch paddle, which means a longer lever, and force amplification (makes the lever easier to press). KAC addressed this by putting a small spring underneath its long longer.
That it's easier to press is the fix for folks that think (and are correct) the Norgon's lever is harder to press, our instrument confirms it, but not by as much as one might imagine. If you're a right hand shooter, your left hand isn't as strong. So a weaker hand pressing a harder to push lever can and does easily result in the perceived difficulty in using it.
But we can't make it too easy to press, because now we'll have more likelihood of accidental/unintended mag drop risk.
A receiver with built-in ambi mag catch can have fences that mitigate this, but for retrofit parts like EMR-A, Troy's and KAC's, we have to deal with it in other ways.
No free lunch, unintended consequences and all that.
Good write up.
Have you noticed any problems with the Troy?
The problem I have with the Troy (sample of one) is the pin that holds the wedge in place is always backing out. I have to use a punch and push it back in. This happens with 100 rounds or less with 223 and as few as 20 rounds with 300 BLK.
Here's a Norgon clone for $25.
https://www.armsunlimited.com/Ambidextrous-AR15-M4-M16-Magazine-Release-p/au-amr.htm
Good write up.
Have you noticed any problems with the Troy?
The problem I have with the Troy (sample of one) is the pin that holds the wedge in place is always backing out. I have to use a punch and push it back in. This happens with 100 rounds or less with 223 and as few as 20 rounds with 300 BLK.
I have, as addressed further up the thread. contact Troy and they will replace it, or simply open up the ends of the roll pin a bit with a small tapered punch.
Norgon will need to do something to compete with these copies. Even more than interference with the bolt catch and hard to press lever, which to me are but minor annoyances, its price is probably the biggest reason some folks are put off by it.
Even if they reduce the price by 50%, it'd still be more expensive. I'd never buy a copy/clone of anything, I don't take kindly to people copying my IP, patent or not, so I will not support it with my wallet.
Thanks for the comparisons.
I went through this same thing until I settled on a combination that was comfortable for me.
I personally like a Strike Industries Enhanced Bolt Catch (http://www.primaryarms.com/strike-industries-enhanced-bolt-catch-si-ar-ebc) and a High Velocity Arms Ambi Mag Release (https://www.rainierarms.com/hva-amr-gen-2-ambi-magazine-release-drop-in-replacement).
The HVA is a bit pricey, but the depression pad is bigger than the Norgon so that it's easier to manipulate.
It's still much cheaper than a full ambi billet lower :D
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm250/kingdlou/20150717_001808_zpsr75i7oom.jpg
Even if they reduce the price by 50%, it'd still be more expensive. I'd never buy a copy/clone of anything, I don't take kindly to people copying my IP, patent or not, so I will not support it with my wallet.
You know I often echo this sentiment. But at 80$ a pop I just can't. Norgon got my 80$ for 4 of them, thats enough. It was their design and they had a monopoly on it. In 20 years (clearly enough time to recoup development cost) they did not find a way to lower price, or more likely chose not to. Maybe because they have an NSN and uncle sugar coughs up the 80$ a pop.
Now you can buy one made in the same country for 25$ or less. So this is direct evidence production cost does not justify an 80$ price tag. If the knock off turns out to be any good I will order 6 of them at 20$ a pop delivered and put them on all my other lowers. Thats 6 for the price of 1.5 originals.
Competition is a beautiful thing.
jerrysimons
03-17-17, 11:34
I like the Troys button placement best, little interference with the bolt catch, but I have reservations about its build quality. You can see it is three pieces and I have had a Troy break on me. The mag catch side with the ambi-button attached separated from the threaded-shaft that the standard right-side-button and spring go on - while I was assembling it into the lower. It nearly put my eye out shooting under spring tension the right-side-button threaded onto the separated shaft out of the receiver and hitting my face below the eye (derp, derp didn't have safety glasses on). That left an impression but I have another on my beater rifle that hasn't given me any problems.
I am looking forward to what Roger comes up with!
26, thanks for the great review. I have the Troy ambi on all of my rifles. Like seb5, I've had the pin work it's way out on one of my rifles. Fortunately, I was able to find the pin and the lever. Other than that, no issues.
26, thanks for the great review. I have the Troy ambi on all of my rifles. Like seb5, I've had the pin work it's way out on one of my rifles. Fortunately, I was able to find the pin and the lever. Other than that, no issues.
After those heads ups I'm going to grab mine and my son's rifles and expand the ends of the roll pins with a taper punch.
I haven't had the pin problems as of yet, so good to know.
Clearly Robert needs to update Norgon's business model, if I were him, I would have started the new model a year ago, now it's catch up time and he's behind the curve, I hate to see this happen.
Norgon didn't have the market cornered, it had competition before which undoubtedly took some market share, but the extent of lost of market share is nothing compared to direct Ambi-Catch copies, now we have close to an apple to apple comparision. The high price of the Ambi-Catch filters out many potential customers that heretofore wanted the Ambi-Catch but might have settled for something else, now they can have it at a fraction of the price. Whether the copies are up to par with the genuine article is something I can't speak to, but I think many would simply take the gamble at these low prices.
EMR-A has been in the works for a long time. From the start, it was designed to be low profile enough to have little interfere with a factory bolt catch's lower paddle. With a new generation bolt catch like the ABC/R, the low profile lever matters less, but many users still have factory bolt catches. The lever is quite large, even on the standard lever (more so on the extended lever).
I'm not a fan of simply making something larger and calling it "enhanced", it's probably the laziest thing I can think of. The larger paddle is multiple contoured and provides a natural index point, with positive traction.
EMR-A will ship with a spring with 30 to 35% more spring rate, we'll get into the reasoning for that later, but I think I have already divulged a bit on why in previous posts :ph34r:
Shown here is a modified lever/paddle, it's about all we can share for now.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/emra_zpsr4crxpyi.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/emra_zpsr4crxpyi.jpg.html)
Roger, I look forward to seeing this. I'm sure it'll be a hit.
And man, that old Bushy gets all the press!
militarymoron
03-20-17, 08:32
Good post/review. I've found that it's definitely personal preference when it comes to ambi mag releases; mostly due to finger length. I'm a lefty and have ambi mag releases on all of my lowers. I have short fingers and the Troy was a bit of a reach for me. The KAC was unusable for me; the pad is much too far to the rear, and having to bend the index finger to position it on the pad was very unnatural feeling. Out of the three, the norgon worked the best for me as it's the same position as the pad on the right side. Having the pad very slightly further back like the AXTS ambi lower works well for me, too.
I'm also of the opinion the KAC ambi mag catch places the paddle too far towards the shooter, forcing most users to curl their finger to access it. Ideally, it should mirror the location of the right side mag release button, which the Norgon does very closely.
Will the "Cola Warrior" patch be included as swag?!! :D
Haha :D Prototype extra spring rate arrived, amazing how 40% doesn't feel like much, we're tuning it to 60% extra power.
I had it happen as well, so I simply shit canned them. I use the KAC or Norgon exclusively until......
Good write up.
Have you noticed any problems with the Troy?
The problem I have with the Troy (sample of one) is the pin that holds the wedge in place is always backing out. I have to use a punch and push it back in. This happens with 100 rounds or less with 223 and as few as 20 rounds with 300 BLK.
Any long term updates? I've been kicking around getting an ambi mag release (x3).
titsonritz
11-20-17, 15:01
I was and am a Norgon fan but Forward Controls EMR-A is my new favorite.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179262-Ambi-mag-Catch-Release&highlight=ambi-mag
Thank you :D
Couple of things I'd like to share. EMR-A's external lever arrangement allows us the freedom to design the lever to our liking, most of the R&D resources centered around the lever, it can't be too long (too easy to press the lever), or too short (too hard to press), and instead of a flat serrated surface, it's 3 dimensional (Multi-faceted surface) to maximize surface area and traction.
The external lever does depend on the receiver to stay within TDP lower specs to work properly. If the lower has a fence or finger rest around the bolt catch, EMR-A's lever will not clear it.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/fingerrest_zpsvgitedzt.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/fingerrest_zpsvgitedzt.jpg.html)
Also, bolt catches that stray too much from the TDP specs, specifically, the lower paddle that's too tall and wide, will interfere with the EMR-A. More info here: http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/3d-party-components-compatibility_ep_53-1.html Geissele's Maritime Bolt Catch is the only one we're aware of. Removing material from either the MBC or EMR-A will fix it, but close proximity of two control surfaces is best avoided. We took pains to give EMR-A's lever as much clearance as possible from the bolt catch for that reason.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/URFwlower_zpssd3owyct.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/URFwlower_zpssd3owyct.jpg.html)
As you can gather, EMR-A, and indeed, all of our products are designed using TDP specs (save for the changes we've made, of course), and compatible with TDP spec receivers and components, I don't think there's a way to make them compatible with all 3rd party developments.
EMR-A's lever is aluminum, and should not wear on the receiver nearly as rapidly as ambi mag catches with external levers made in steel.
I was and am a Norgon fan but Forward Controls EMR-A is my new favorite.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179262-Ambi-mag-Catch-Release&highlight=ambi-mag
Why? I am hesitant about and ambi-mag release that pivots on the receiever. Finish wear I can take, but I imagine it is digging a hole in the receiver. Moreover, I was looking at these (and their bolt catch) and think that they're pricey, but might not do much more for function than a Geissele bolt catch or a Norgon (which I consider to be proven).
Anybody have the part # for the Sig ambi-mag release that will fit a standard AR?
Why? I am hesitant about and ambi-mag release that pivots on the receiever. Finish wear I can take, but I imagine it is digging a hole in the receiver. Moreover, I was looking at these (and their bolt catch) and think that they're pricey, but might not do much more for function than a Geissele bolt catch or a Norgon (which I consider to be proven).
Anybody have the part # for the Sig ambi-mag release that will fit a standard AR?
I am a lefty, plus I started this thread. I have all of the ambi-releases you've mentioned, except for the Sig, which I've seen and used.
The only one which does not pivot/cam on the receiver is the Norgon. The Sig release actually cams on the receiver in two places, so if wearing through the receiver is what is worrying you, it should give you twice as much concern.
You asked why another poster preferred the EMR-A over the Norgon. I think the OP in this thread pretty much outlines pluses and minuses of the various ambi-releases. At the time, the FCD EMR-A hadn't been released. Here is my take on the EMR-A:
I received the two EMR-A's I ordered a couple days ago.....I like them, a lot. I installed one on my SBR replacing the Norgon clone that I had installed on the rifle. At first I was not going to use the extra spring rate mag spring. I compared the springs by compressing them in my hand, the enhanced spring felt a lot stiffer, about 60% stiffer I'd guess. I figured the mag release would be too stiff for my liking with the enhanced spring installed. Then I figured WTF, I can take it out if it don't like it.
Surprisingly, when installed there wasn't appreciably more effort required than with the normal spring.
At this point I have had the Troy, Norgon (clone), and KAC ambi releases installed on rifles with the KAC being my favorite. The KAC lever is longer than the FCD EMR-A lever. However, for me this is not an issue, I easily and naturally reach both of them. The EMR-A is far less likely to be rendered inoperable by something snagging on it than the KAC.
This moves it up on chart for me in terms of like. Subjectively, to me both the KAC and EMR-A require about the same amount of effort.
The only downside: I have also experimented with a couple different style bolt catch/releases. I was looking for one that moved the release pad further to the rear of the rifle for lefty use. At this point the ones I have used are the Seekins Enhanced Bolt Catch and the Geissele Maritime Bolt Catch. I far prefer the Maritime Catch. On my rifles, the EMR-A will not work with the Geissele Maritime Bolt Catch without modification to the catch.
The Norgon also has one concern which some may take issue with: there is a possibility of inadvertently releasing a magazine when locking the bolt to the rear due to the Norgon lever's close proximity to the bolt catch.
I do believe that you would be quite happy with the EMR-A. Right now, I'd order them 1) EMR-A; 2) KAC; 3) Norgon; 4) Troy. Although I do have to say that I don't think using any of the four would be a mistake.
The ABC/R was developed specifically to address a pet peeve of mine, something I discovered the moment I had a Norgon Ambi-Catch installed, that of the Ambi-Catch making the bolt catch's lower paddle harder to access. These two control surfaces are very close together, with a gloved hand it's difficult to discern which paddle the finger is pressing. The angled and longer lower paddle of the ABC/R solved that issue.
EMR-A came years later, itself is a remedy for what I believe to be the Ambi-Catch's shortcomings: its short lever can be hard to press, especially with a full mag. The location of the short lever can be difficult to reach for some, and because of its "pivot on the catch" design, the shape of its lever is limited to the confines of the mag catch cutout on the receiver.
We were quite aware of Robert's patent's expiration date. Robert Garrett's "pivot on the catch" design does have some notable benefits, it's resting inside the receiver, not outside of it, it doesn't pivot on the receiver. Whether it does or doesn't isn't a real deal breaker for us. We design components for combat weapons. Tools get used and in so doing, get scratched, we knew the external lever would not appeal to those that don't want scratches on their ARs and that's an acceptable compromise, in view of what we were able to accomplish with the lever, it far outweighs the marring on the receiver, which we consider but a matter of course if these guns get used.
EMR-A's lever has more surface area than any ambi-mag catch we know, and we didn't simply make it bigger. Making things bigger but not smarter or better is laziness on the designer's part. 80% of the serrated portion has a shallow V shape to conform to the gentle curve of the user's finger pad, but the last 20% is straight to form a ledge for improved traction/grip. This wouldn't be possible with the "pivot on the catch" design.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/angledpaddle2_zpsu3vhrxnj.jpeg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/angledpaddle2_zpsu3vhrxnj.jpeg.html)
There is a reason the lever isn't made of steel, and it's not cost, 7075 aluminum isn't cheap. The lever doesn't need to be steel, and we wanted to avoid accelerated wear on the receiver.
lahunter57
11-21-17, 10:30
The ABC/R was developed specifically to address a pet peeve of mine, something I discovered the moment I had a Norgon Ambi-Catch installed, that of the Ambi-Catch making the bolt catch's lower paddle harder to access. These two control surfaces are very close together, with a gloved hand it's difficult to discern which paddle the finger is pressing. The angled and longer lower paddle of the ABC/R solved that issue.
EMR-A came years later, itself is a remedy for what I believe to be the Ambi-Catch's shortcomings: its short lever can be hard to press, especially with a full mag. The location of the short lever can be difficult to reach for some, and because of its "pivot on the catch" design, the shape of its lever is limited to the confines of the mag catch cutout on the receiver.
We were quite aware of Robert's patent's expiration date. Robert Garrett's "pivot on the catch" design does have some notable benefits, it's resting inside the receiver, not outside of it, it doesn't pivot on the receiver. Whether it does or doesn't isn't a real deal breaker for us. We design components for combat weapons. Tools get used and in so doing, get scratched, we knew the external lever would not appeal to those that don't want scratches on their ARs and that's an acceptable compromise, in view of what we were able to accomplish with the lever, it far outweighs the marring on the receiver, which we consider but a matter of course if these guns get used.
EMR-A's lever has more surface area than any ambi-mag catch we know, and we didn't simply make it bigger. Making things bigger but not smarter or better is laziness on the designer's part. 80% of the serrated portion has a shallow V shape to conform to the gentle curve of the user's finger pad, but the last 20% is straight to form a ledge for improved traction/grip. This wouldn't be possible with the "pivot on the catch" design.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/angledpaddle2_zpsu3vhrxnj.jpeg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/angledpaddle2_zpsu3vhrxnj.jpeg.html)
There is a reason the lever isn't made of steel, and it's not cost, 7075 aluminum isn't cheap. The lever doesn't need to be steel, and we wanted to avoid accelerated wear on the receiver.
Drops mic.
You get what you pay for. I have multiple products from Forward Controls and everything about them speaks quality. These are components for weapons and tools, not toys.
I’d love to see someone “dig” through 2-3mm of hard anodized 7075 aluminum. You could have bought countless lower receivers with the money you spent on ammo to do all of those magazine changes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We don't want to be seen as a boutique company, and have never considered ourselves in that manner. But our small size and corresponding high cost (economy of scale) per unit sure can make us look like one, I just hope by the products we design and put out, and the folks and weapons for whom and which we design should make it clear what our purpose and mission is.
titsonritz
11-21-17, 11:23
Why? I am hesitant about and ambi-mag release that pivots on the receiever. Finish wear I can take, but I imagine it is digging a hole in the receiver. Moreover, I was looking at these (and their bolt catch) and think that they're pricey, but might not do much more for function than a Geissele bolt catch or a Norgon (which I consider to be proven).
Anybody have the part # for the Sig ambi-mag release that will fit a standard AR?
I really don't have more to add over the three posters above me, but I will say I do have Geissele's Maritime Bolt Catch & Norgon combo as well as FCD's EMR-A & ABC/R-AA combo and I prefer the latter. I no longer have a Troy but suspect it might work better with the Maritime catch because the controls are separated more thus less of a chance mixing them up. I find the EMR-A to the closest mirror image of the standard mag release in location and tension, then there is that awesome shape of the lever that Roger came up with which is just that...awesome.
Pricey? Bought many Norgons?
Wear a hole in the receiver? You ****ing stud.
I really don't have more to add over the three posters above me, but I will say I do have Geissele's Maritime Bolt Catch & Norgon combo as well as FCD's EMR-A & ABC/R-AA combo and I prefer the latter. I no longer have a Troy but suspect it might work better with the Maritime catch because the controls are separated more thus less of a chance mixing them up. I find the EMR-A to the closest mirror image of the standard mag release in location and tension, then there is that awesome shape of the lever that Roger came up with which is just that...awesome.
Pricey? Bought many Norgons?
Wear a hole in the receiver? You ****ing stud.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have had a couple of Roger's products sitting in my cart and not making up my mind.
Yeah, they are pricey. Especially considering the clones of the norgon out there. Not saying they're not worth it, just pricey.
I wish I was a stud, but I'm not lol.
We don't want to be seen as a boutique company, and have never considered ourselves in that manner. But our small size and corresponding high cost (economy of scale) per unit sure can make us look like one, I just hope by the products we design and put out, and the folks and weapons for whom and which we design should make it clear what our purpose and mission is.
Yeah, I figure between economies of scale and patent lawyers it's tough to get products out there nowadays. There's nothing wrong with be a boutique company either, hell Tesla is a boutique company and so was AT&T and DTE Energy.
I just worry for the cost and lack of experience (never used an ambi mag release) that I am going to buy the Norgon and then wonder if I would like the EMR better or vice versa. I'll sort it out, but thanks for putting it out there.
Not technical in nature....we're running a 15% off sale site wide, and with the code freeshipping it removes shipping charges as well, this is one of the few times we make codes stackable.
Re: Maritime Bolt Catch, I wrote about it a few months back so I'll copy and paste it here, sorry about the wall of text ;)
The Maritime bolt catch was first seen in mid April of 2017, by then the EMR-A design was well completed and working, usable EMR-A prototypes were made in Feb of 2017. We thought it might be a compatibility problem between the two, and indeed there is, as disclosed on the EMR-A's product description page on our site, and earlier posts in this thread.
To make the MBC and EMR-A work together, material would need to be removed from either the top of the EMR-A paddle, or the bottom of the MBC's lower paddle. Even then this would be far from ideal, the close proximity of these two control surfaces will make both the bolt catch's lower paddle, and the EMR-A's lever difficult to distinguish from one another without a visual.
We took pains to separate the EMR-A's lever from the bolt catch's lower paddle, it's indeed one of the key elements of the design. The area directly below the bolt catch, the EMR-A's lever has the lowest profile and is free of serrations, the design redirects the user's finger to the serrated portion which is as far away from the bolt catch's lower paddle as we can manage, without making the lever too long.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/IMG_2451_zpst7sa4jb7.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/IMG_2451_zpst7sa4jb7.jpg.html)
Maritime bolt catch serves a different purpose, which is quite different from our own bolt catch (ABC/R). ABC/R creates a unique control surface that can be easily distinguished from an ambi mag catch's lever, while both its top and lower paddles have a great deal more surface area than a factory bolt catch, they were not designed to have a rearward bias, as left finger accessibility of the paddles (a fine motor function) wasn't a design goal, nor essential for the ABC/R's function, in any case it's not the reason for which the ABC/R was designed.
EMR-A, like all of our products, was designed for TDP spec receivers, and to work with TDP spec components, and components that don't deviate too greatly from TDP spec.
Geissele has its reasons for making the Maritime Bolt Catch paddles the way it did. With the ABC/R, we obviously differ in opinion on the extent of the paddle's over sizing. Below is a post we wrote on m4carbine.net https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?197285-Geissele-Maritime-Bolt-Catch
The Maritime bolt catch and our ABC/R are both bolt catches, and they both have a larger upper paddle, that's where the similarity ends. As mooseman stated, we had different approaches to achieve different sets of goals, that's logical and proper.
Early on, military morons had suggested we extend the lower paddle with a rearward bias, such a thing had already been done on AXTS's proprietary bolt catch on their billet receiver. ABC/R's upper paddle is already larger and twice angled (the upper paddle has a10 degree cant at the lower 50%, and 15 degree cant at the top 50%, forming an "elbow") and wasn't the focus for this discussion.
Our view was firstly, the location of the bolt catch's lower paddle didn't present an issue for most users, and the upper paddle isn't meant to be accessed with an extended finger that can only exert limited pressure (compared to a thumb or palm) to the paddle, there's then scant needs to create a bolt catch with extended paddles with a rearward bias to enable it. Secondly ABC/R's design goal is quite different, it is to address the issue of ambi mag catches obscuring/masking the bolt catch's lower paddle, its angled and extra lateral protrusion more than adequately achieves that goal.
titsonritz
11-21-17, 13:02
Yeah, they are pricey. Especially considering the clones of the norgon out there. Not saying they're not worth it, just pricey.
There weren't any Norgon clones around when I bought the couple I have, not that it would matter I typically stick with the original because more often than not they are higher quality and I'd rather give my support to the original designer over someone that took someone's idea and profited from it. I'm not going to replace and sell my Norgon but from here on out, unless I find something I like better, the EMR-A will be my go to mag release.
Oh, and another thing I like about the EMR-A is it comes with a mag release spring making one fewer part I need to buy separately.
Now if only Roger would just include a bolt catch plunger, spring and roll pin with his ABC/R-AA that would be tits. Hint, Hint :dirol:
If we can source them inexpensively in the US, we got the springs covered but not the plunger and pin. I suspect we'll get there one day, meanwhile, we're happy to give LE/MIL/first responders discounts worth more than the tiny parts, this includes many of you guys ;) If you don't have the codes, please email me.
I've heard of strange issues with the Norgon clones, there are enough of them out there. I will not buy a clone either, simply because I don't appreciate it much when our designs are appropriated without license or credit. I do believe there are some quality/construction issues. When something costs 1/4 of the original, something has to give.
I just worry for the cost and lack of experience (never used an ambi mag release) that I am going to buy the Norgon and then wonder if I would like the EMR better or vice versa. I'll sort it out, but thanks for putting it out there.
Are you left-handed? As I mentioned, I am. I put ambidextrous safeties, mag releases, and charging handles on all of MY rifles (ambi safeties on everything I put together).
That being said, a lifetime of making adaptations has entrenched those methods to the point that unless I specifically tell myself - 'use the ambi' - I ignore the mag release and charging handle. I'm good on the safety, because of the number of reps.
I thought about it, and decided that I will still put them on all my rifles, it can't hurt. I am swapping/replacing my Troy's and Norgon (clone) for EMR-A's or KAC's out as I build new rifles for folks.
Depending on how sanitary I can make the modification, I am going to end up with the Mari-Time Catches on everything that I keep for myself. I learned a long time ago that you modify the least expensive part, so I'll be modifying the catches, not the releases.
All that to say - if you are comfortable and proficient with running the rifle without the ambi-releases, you may not be missing much if you forego them. Another side of the coin is that if there is ever any need for you to use a pick-up rifle, it is more likely to be a righty, rather than an ambi.
Are you left-handed? As I mentioned, I am. I put ambidextrous safeties, mag releases, and charging handles on all of MY rifles (ambi safeties on everything I put together).
All that to say - if you are comfortable and proficient with running the rifle without the ambi-releases, you may not be missing much if you forego them. Another side of the coin is that if there is ever any need for you to use a pick-up rifle, it is more likely to be a righty, rather than an ambi.
No, I am not a lefty. I just like the idea of having ambi controls. It's not a huge priority to get ambi mag releases, but it's been on my mind lately. On a side note, I have the Super Charging Handles and I love them -but it's also my first ambi mag release.
CDNN is selling the Norgon (https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-ambi-mag-release-steel-us-mfg-8620.html#.Wwgl2ooh1hE) clone as well for $19.99.
A friend and customer showed me pictures of several of these clones, as several of us in a FB group were discussing ambi mag releases.
The pics show 5 or 6 units, ostensibly from the same company that sold them but they were obviously made from different shops, as they all have varying degrees of tool marks and other inconsistencies. Tool marks notwithstanding, they all felt different as well, some worked better than others, a few were quite unusable, further proof not a single shop makes them, which isn't a problem in itself, but that none of the shops seem to adhere to tolerances they wouldn't have from the original, is a cause for their erratic and inconsistent levels of performance.
It's easy to reverse engineer something, but the lack of tolerance specs and strict adherence to quality explain the deviations in performance and reliability. We refuse to start a project without TDP as references, all of our products are meant to be improvements over the factory equivalent, but without TDP specs and tolerances, it'd be worse than a gamble, since the results are preordained.
From a manufacturer's perspective, these clones carry MSRPs lower than what it costs us to produce an EMR-A. A $20 item probably costs $7 to produce, where in the US can something like this be produced for $7 or $8? No shops we work with can do that. This cost saving comes from somewhere we all suspected, the pics I saw confirmed it.
If your life depends on it, don't use a clone.
A friend and customer showed me pictures of several of these clones, as several of us in a FB group were discussing ambi mag releases.
The pics show 5 or 6 units, ostensibly from the same company that sold them but they were obviously made from different shops, as they all have varying degrees of tool marks and other inconsistencies. Tool marks notwithstanding, they all felt different as well, some worked better than others, a few were quite unusable, further proof not a single shop makes them, which isn't a problem in itself, but that none of the shops seem to adhere to tolerances they wouldn't have from the original, is a cause for their erratic and inconsistent levels of performance.
It's easy to reverse engineer something, but the lack of tolerance specs and strict adherence to quality explain the deviations in performance and reliability. We refuse to start a project without TDP as references, all of our products are meant to be improvements over the factory equivalent, but without TDP specs and tolerances, it'd be worse than a gamble, since the results are preordained.
From a manufacturer's perspective, these clones carry MSRPs lower than what it costs us to produce an EMR-A. A $20 item probably costs $7 to produce, where in the US can something like this be produced for $7 or $8? No shops we work with can do that. This cost saving comes from somewhere we all suspected, the pics I saw confirmed it.
If your life depends on it, don't use a clone.
have your FA, bolt release, and ambi mag release for these reasons and the fact that your active here. I cant imagine buying anything else.
Chris
titsonritz
05-25-18, 13:24
CDNN is selling the Norgon (https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-ambi-mag-release-steel-us-mfg-8620.html#.Wwgl2ooh1hE) clone as well for $19.99.
Manufacturer: ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT :haha: Kind of funny for a clone
titsonritz
05-25-18, 15:53
Depending on how sanitary I can make the modification, I am going to end up with the Mari-Time Catches on everything that I keep for myself. I learned a long time ago that you modify the least expensive part, so I'll be modifying the catches, not the releases.
Did you ever get around to it? I am curious how your mods turned out and wanted to get your thoughts.
Did you ever get around to it? I am curious how your mods turned out and wanted to get your thoughts.
Short annswer, didn't do it.
When I laid it out I would have ended up taking off between 1/2 and 1/2 of the bottom pad of the Mari-Time Catch. When I covered what I was going to take off with white tape, it didn't look aesthetically pleasing - I was pretty sure strength wouldn't be an issue, but not certain, so I passed.
The EMR-A and a Seekins Enhanced Bolt Catch live on a pistol lower that I essentially use as the host for my short uppers when they aren't on my SBR.
titsonritz
05-25-18, 19:45
Short annswer, didn't do it.
When I laid it out I would have ended up taking off between 1/2 and 1/2 of the bottom pad of the Mari-Time Catch. When I covered what I was going to take off with white tape, it didn't look aesthetically pleasing - I was pretty sure strength wouldn't be an issue, but not certain, so I passed.
The EMR-A and a Seekins Enhanced Bolt Catch live on a pistol lower that I essentially use as the host for my short uppers when they aren't on my SBR.
I was thinking that would be the approach to take. Probably a good abort plan. It's rough doing the Bubba thing on quality, not inexpensive parts.
thegreyman
04-23-19, 14:17
Good post/review. I've found that it's definitely personal preference when it comes to ambi mag releases; mostly due to finger length. I'm a lefty and have ambi mag releases on all of my lowers. I have short fingers and the Troy was a bit of a reach for me. The KAC was unusable for me; the pad is much too far to the rear, and having to bend the index finger to position it on the pad was very unnatural feeling. Out of the three, the norgon worked the best for me as it's the same position as the pad on the right side. Having the pad very slightly further back like the AXTS ambi lower works well for me, too.
Amen.
The real deal and its clones, with varying degree of fit and quality.
https://oi75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/norgon%20%20and%20clines%202_zpswoupxj6s.jpg (https://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/norgon%20%20and%20clines%202_zpswoupxj6s.jpg.html)
https://oi75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/norgon%20and%20clones1_zpsdzdugxqq.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/norgon%20and%20clones1_zpsdzdugxqq.jpg.html)
The second and third ones (from the left) seem to be pretty close copies. Which one is the Sig copy?
Does SIG have a Norgon Ambi-Catch clone? I know they have their won ambi mag catch that operates the same way as our EMR-A.
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