View Full Version : Project Reject ***(MAJOR Update page 3)*** IT GROUPS!!!
PROJECT REJECT
This idea came about after I got to thinking about returned barrels. Companies that offer an accuracy guarantee are stuck at the hands of the installer and trigger puller. I'm certainly not above thinking bad barrels come off the machines, but I still wonder what the real issue is with many of these barrels. Buyers remorse? Poor shooter? Low quality ammunition? Improper scope or optic mount? Low quality installation? A receiver that sucks in the barrel extension and wobbles like a drunken donkey?
Here is the barrel we will be dealing with. While it is a SS match barrel, that is all the info I have on it. I won't say who the company is who has these made, or who the maker is at this point. I have already stated we know machines put out bad barrels sometimes for a variety of reasons. The more important issue is how well the seller stands behind their product.
From a first look, we can see the barrel is obviously used and has been fired. Black marks near the gas port, and a layer of grunge are in the barrel extension. HOWEVER, as we look closer, we can start to see more interesting things. Do you think the barrel extension index pin left the manufacturer that way?
http://68.media.tumblr.com/1e504c18e1103478d6a8bfc7c3dfe41c/tumblr_omu9dsgAOT1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
http://68.media.tumblr.com/31fe2b3273eae7006ab3ddb6966988ba/tumblr_omu9ejjTN71rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
This block will encompass what we built up, and how we built the upper....
The first thing to figure out once the barrel decision has been made, is to determine what parts are used for the rest of the build. This becomes much more of an issue when we want to eliminate build and component issues to determine overall accuracy. Below is the parts layout.
The upper receiver we decided on is one from Cross Machine and Tool. We had a few options to chose from sitting over here in our parts bins, but chose Cross Machine and Tool because Jeff Cross likes to keep the receiver to barrel extension index tight. If you have ever put a barrel extension into a receiver and it dropped in easily, or worse, had some wobble once inserted, you got a low quality part. It is true that the barrel nut provides compression, but only in one direction (realistically speaking), and only to a certain degree.
The rail is also from Cross Machine and Tool, this was chosen because it had just showed up in the mail, and is a rail we have used before, and is of known good quality. There are a lot of other parts which could have been used which are also high quality, this is just how this selection went.
The Geissele charging handle was selected because there was a bag of them sitting next to the work bench (thanks to a buddy who finally mailed them).
A Lantac USA gas block was used because they provide a nice fit and aren't loose on barrels. The first gas block chosen is shown in the below picture, was unmarked for mfg name, and was a horrific fit. It now resides in the garbage.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/93724cdea4fb8d12a599bc88da59e894/tumblr_omuf1dYuTf1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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We used Aeroshell 33MS Grease MIL-G-21164D around the outside of the barrel extension, the inside of the receiver, and on the receiver threads. While people can argue against the use of grease, we find there are too many reasons to use it, in addition to the military and armorer requirements.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/fe20702bb192ad5b2f45e38f84c19434/tumblr_omuf51dAkN1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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We also used the above grease inside the threads of the barrel nut. In the below picture you can see the assembly method of the rail, barrel and upper receiver (the barrel is not shown to keep the pic cleaner). The barrel is inserted into the receiver, the barrel nut is tightened down. Tightened then taken off, and tightened again 3 times. The reason for this is new threads will compress a bit and mate to each other when this is done. It is often overlooked, but a lengthy conversation with John Noveske explained it in great detail, and not doing this was a fire-able offense when John ran the shop.
Once the barrel nut is in place, the rail slides over, and the anti-rotation tabs lock in place. Each side of the lower section of the rail has locking pieces along with two screws. One locking section on each side, and tighten the screws into place locking them to the rail. If you have read this far, it is novice level easy.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/26fbf5869120db063c1edc13249d6c4a/tumblr_omuf4ipX2n1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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Here you can see the tool provided with the Cross Machine and Tool rail which makes installation of the barrel nut simplistic. You do not need to time the barrel nut, which allows you to torque it down as much or as little as your person preferences allow.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/20ad83e7f1c46dc2069b22b8d00a67e5/tumblr_omuf554TPq1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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Once the barrel nut is in place, install your gas tube and gas block.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/0607e124badcb3b456d68276f3976987/tumblr_omvnt1ngAd1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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The below picture shows the side pieces, and how they lock into the rail.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/0bee30d5932c7879f1950492dfa4e7b1/tumblr_omvn99ZXep1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
What we have built up and the whats and how of getting it ready to fire.
We decided to use a Wilson Combat 3 prong flash suppressor. We did throw a couple shims behind it, and tightened it down by hand. No extra pressure from a crush washer to possibly offset groups, then again, we have no idea how the barrel was treated before we received it, so it may be a moot point.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/444bc3433051835e7ad8b38bbe03b261/tumblr_omvn7tS79s1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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We then chose a lower, and in this case the decision was pretty easy. We already have a lower which we use for testing, and it happens to be a Cross Machine and Tool. Fit between the receivers is nice and snug. The glass up top is from Vortex, and their 3-18 Razor HD Gen II is what we try to use when we do ammunition and weapon testing. The mount is from Geissele because it fits incredibly well on 1913 rails, and doesn't mark up or crush receivers and items we are working with.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/7de1523cd6599936a3e7b1550a942a66/tumblr_omvo4stMEd1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
https://68.media.tumblr.com/5163dadaa40a47e57144db69b87ac814/tumblr_omvo6rrWK51rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
A minor update. We took Project Reject out today and plugged it in at 30 yards. At this distance, the idea was to see how groups were with the dirty barrel, and see if we could get the scope on paper. After finding out where we were hitting, we fired from the first magazine which was filled with unknown 55 grain hp ammo. Some of it was pretty dirty, and some was bright and shiny. No point in wasting time by checking headstamps and weighing each round, we fired it as it went into the magazine loaded out of one of our generic ammo cans.
The groups were as shown below. Again, this is from 30 YARDS, add in to this, I was not on my game. Nothing felt quite right behind the trigger, and while I am not making excuses, I want to make sure we are blunt and honest about how things go with this project. I don't think being "on my game" would have made much of a difference with these groups. The ammo was assorted, so there wasn't much expectation things would group super tight.
At this point, all we could think of was multiplying this group times 3, and that the barrel certainly wasn't pretending to be 1 MOA, or even anything close.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/6c3d861261c8bf7a0416a1bb703d010e/tumblr_omy1hkTB0K1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
http://68.media.tumblr.com/3a6ef6a0c564de478c14a67460873ae2/tumblr_omy1e5kmlF1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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Next we loaded up a magazine of 55 grain Gorilla Ammunition. The results were much different. We have used this ammunition before and found it to group very well, but there was a large difference between this ammo and the previous mag. As mentioned above, this was not a great shooting day, and most of the times I pulled the trigger with these groups, it felt like I was shanking a round, but the group was still decent, even though it wasn't from 100 yards.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/52990e1bdb51a58097ffa84388230205/tumblr_omy1evsXyh1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
This thread has potential. I dig it.
ETA: do you have an accuracy baseline or claim (or lack thereof) from the previous owner?
This thread has potential. I dig it.
ETA: do you have an accuracy baseline or claim (or lack thereof) from the previous owner?
Nope, I have no idea who the owner was, this came out of a bin of returned barrels of different makes, calibers, lengths and profiles.
Very interesting idea for a thread. Looking forward to seeing what this brings. I'm assuming that accuracy guarantee was MOA?
hotrodder636
03-15-17, 02:25
I really like the idea of this thread.
This makes me wonder what exactly the manufacturers do with said returned barrels?
It's so hairy.
Very curious how this turns out!
I'm assuming that accuracy guarantee was MOA?
I'm not sure, and while I can probably find out easily enough, I'm more interested in how it shoots overall. I figure we can shoot a few times of ammo through it and see how she does in real world shooting. This won't get handloads, locked into a barrel testing rig, or anything magical. Just legit shooting to see if the barrel was a dud, or if there was something else to it.
I really like the idea of this thread.
This makes me wonder what exactly the manufacturers do with said returned barrels?
Maybe some are returned to the barrel maker, who in turn probably throws them into recycling. For a dealer who has the barrels custom made, they might just east the cost.
I like the concept. I have purchased rifles over the years that other people said would not shoot and made them shoot well.
Have you determined barrel twist rate?
I like the concept. I have purchase rifles over the years that other people said would not shoot and made them shoot well.
Have you determined barrel twist rate?
Should be 1-7.
Voodoochild
03-16-17, 09:37
I am going to "Assume" you cleaned the barrel up before using it. It looks like a certain MFG barrel but won't name drop. What type of ammo do you plan on using? Standard 55 grain ball or match?
Should be 1-7.
If you verified it's 1:7 twist, it should spin 80g projectiles well.
I bought what I thought was a 1:7 barrel that shot 80g Sierras great at 600 yards. It turned out to be a 1:7.75 twist when I measured it. That's why I asked.
I am going to "Assume" you cleaned the barrel up before using it. It looks like a certain MFG barrel but won't name drop. What type of ammo do you plan on using? Standard 55 grain ball or match?
Actually, no. We are going to shoot this pig in as close to the condition it was turned into the company as possible. Once we do that, we can go from there. Eventually we will get to clean barrel and nice ammo. To start, cheap and dirty.
A minor update. We took Project Reject out today and plugged it in at 30 yards. At this distance, the idea was to see how groups were with the dirty barrel, and see if we could get the scope on paper. After finding out where we were hitting, we fired from the first magazine which was filled with unknown 55 grain hp ammo. Some of it was pretty dirty, and some was bright and shiny. No point in wasting time by checking headstamps and weighing each round, we fired it as it went into the magazine loaded out of one of our generic ammo cans.
The groups were as shown below. Again, this is from 30 YARDS, add in to this, I was not on my game. Nothing felt quite right behind the trigger, and while I am not making excuses, I want to make sure we are blunt and honest about how things go with this project. I don't think being "on my game" would have made much of a difference with these groups. The ammo was assorted, so there wasn't much expectation things would group super tight.
At this point, all we could think of was multiplying this group times 3, and that the barrel certainly wasn't pretending to be 1 MOA, or even anything close.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/6c3d861261c8bf7a0416a1bb703d010e/tumblr_omy1hkTB0K1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
http://68.media.tumblr.com/3a6ef6a0c564de478c14a67460873ae2/tumblr_omy1e5kmlF1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
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Next we loaded up a magazine of 55 grain Gorilla Ammunition. The results were much different. We have used this ammunition before and found it to group very well. There was a large difference between this ammo and the previous mag. As mentioned above, this was not a great shooting day, and most of the times I pulled the trigger with these groups, it felt like I was shanking a round, but the group was still decent, even though it wasn't from 100 yards. All of a sudden, the barrel began to look not quite so bad.
http://68.media.tumblr.com/52990e1bdb51a58097ffa84388230205/tumblr_omy1evsXyh1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
That second group looks quite good, it might be 1 moa at 100 yards.
That first group though is scary.
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I love this thread. I've several times purchased used rifles because "they just don't shoot". The last one was a 6920 that ended up shooting sub-MOA. A few years ago I purchased a Rem 700 that ended being sub 1/2 MOA.
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Ned Christiansen
03-17-17, 10:25
Most interesting, Stick. I am very into recycling stuff that maybe ought not to be, just to see what the limits really are..... on my own equipment of course. Most notable are two upper receivers salvaged from KaBooms and a nice Lothar Walther barrel, same. Whatever caused the blowup, it was not a squib or at any rate there was no evident damage to the barrel. However the bolt was damaged and I assumed the barrel extension was compromised so I replaced it, and yup, the gas port came up in the wrong place so I just "drilt me a new 1". This gun was in my article "It's Alive" a couple SWATs ago. There was no issue staying around 1 1/4" using several brands of ammo using 77SMK's that are duty grade and not match ammo. With match 77's and a Millett DMS 2 on 6X it'll break 1MOA but not by a ton..... anyway I felt it showed appreciation for not being cut up into washers.
Didja by chance get to bore scope that reject before starting?
Most interesting, Stick. I am very into recycling stuff that maybe ought not to be, just to see what the limits really are..... on my own equipment of course. Most notable are two upper receivers salvaged from KaBooms and a nice Lothar Walther barrel, same. Whatever caused the blowup, it was not a squib or at any rate there was no evident damage to the barrel. However the bolt was damaged and I assumed the barrel extension was compromised so I replaced it, and yup, the gas port came up in the wrong place so I just "drilt me a new 1". This gun was in my article "It's Alive" a couple SWATs ago. There was no issue staying around 1 1/4" using several brands of ammo using 77SMK's that are duty grade and not match ammo. With match 77's and a Millett DMS 2 on 6X it'll break 1MOA but not by a ton..... anyway I felt it showed appreciation for not being cut up into washers.
Didja by chance get to bore scope that reject before starting?
Your thoughts and input are very welcome in any of my threads, especially in ones like this. This was not bore scoped, cleaned, or anything else. It was used and ugly when turned in, and it was used and ugly when we shot the above.
I do think bore scope pictures would have been a nice addition, or at least good info for us to have over here, but the end result is all that really matters for this article.
We have a few more barrels sitting over here which were turned back in for whatever reason, if people like this article we may do up a few more barrels combined with articles showing builds and how we do things.
Too bad you aren't closer to our location, I think we would have a great time playing around with some of this stuff. Sorry I missed your SWAT article.
Ned Christiansen
03-19-17, 11:21
"Too bad you aren't closer to our location, I think we would have a great time playing around with some of this stuff."
For sure.... that'd be great to get together on a few things.
Sorry for slacking, we should be able to get to some testing at distance pretty soon. This project isn't abandon!
Minor update, the below is 5 rounds from 100 yards using 69 grain ammunition. I had a difficult time initially believing two stacked on top of each other, but it isn't the first time I've seen it. Shooting with 55 grain (also Gorilla Ammunition match), the group was slightly larger. I did fire other groups which met with similar results, but I had issues with wind and back splash taking down the target. It was one of those days where I really should have thrown up actual target stands, but was lazy and paid the price.
However, lazy or not, we are still looking at a filthy barrel pulling .99" groups, and while I seriously doubt I am shooting to the mechanical ability of the barrel, it doesn't change the barrel is meeting the magic 1" at 100 goal. While I am horribly tempted to super clean the barrel, that really isn't the purpose of this post. The idea was to see how the barrel shot in the condition it was returned. My thought is that the barrel as turned in, is the worst case scenario for how it shoots.
We are going to shoot again for groups and see how things go, but at this point I feel pretty confident saying the barrel is of good quality, and a decent shooter. The next update will be with actual target stands and (hopefully) no excuses. :-)
https://68.media.tumblr.com/9381dc4cbd1fae8775dc807dd1c658db/tumblr_onx97oGBDx1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
At first I thought the lowest round looked a hair bigger but after zooming in, not so sure. I think once you have established your goal, clean it then and see what happens just for fun.
At first I thought the lowest round looked a hair bigger but after zooming in, not so sure. I think once you have established your goal, clean it then and see what happens just for fun.
Agreed, I'm honestly not sure which hole it was. I debated just counting the three farthest, but three rounds is a cop out.
If at all possible, I'll be able to shoot for groups today, then clean and shoot one more time. After that, I'm going to rebarrel it into a rail and upper that I won't show in pictures anymore, and give it to a disabled vet who has been looking for an AR15.
Barring something freakish happening, I consider this to be a pretty nice barrel.
With 20 rounds fired in four, 5 round groups, and an average MOA of .724, I think the results speak for themselves. Even with the fliers which were both called at time of pulling the trigger, the barrel is good to go.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/b8936a25960e1ac42bc958defbe84655/tumblr_onymals8Zf1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg
Ha! I think I know which barrel this is and have the same one. Just waiting for my receiver set from cerakote. Can't wait to get it together.
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Ha! I think I know which barrel this is and have the same one. Just waiting for my receiver set from cerakote. Can't wait to get it together.
Not sure if you read what I posted on the first page.... "this came out of a bin of returned barrels of different makes, calibers, lengths and profiles.". Even if you had the same model barrel, I'm not sure how we would both have barrels were were installed and handled the same way.
I don't think this is the same barrel you are thinking of. However, I do have a CF wrapped barrel that I'm getting ready to play with.
Not sure if you read what I posted on the first page.... "this came out of a bin of returned barrels of different makes, calibers, lengths and profiles.". Even if you had the same model barrel, I'm not sure how we would both have barrels were were installed and handled the same way.
I don't think this is the same barrel you are thinking of. However, I do have a CF wrapped barrel that I'm getting ready to play with.
I did read that. And perhaps not. Either way this was an interesting "test" and I'm glad you took the time to do it and post.
Those CF wrapped barrels are pretty cool. Pricey and a whole lot more barrel that my shooting skills would give justice to, but cool.
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I did read that. And perhaps not. Either way this was an interesting "test" and I'm glad you took the time to do it and post.
Shoot me an IM when you get a chance and let me know which barrel you meant.
Very cool. Nice shooting and a great use for the barrel!
thebarracuda
04-05-17, 22:00
This is a cool idea for a thread. It's like getting a dog at the pound. But with guns! Good work!
Gunnar da Wolf
04-06-17, 12:20
I wonder if somewhere someone is sitting there reading this and going "DAmn! Mebbee I should have tried harder on that barrel."...
Nice project, thanks for sharing.
This is a cool idea for a thread. It's like getting a dog at the pound. But with guns! Good work!
I have a few more barrels I am going to do this with which were also considered "reject" barrels. This one here is one of the better barrels I've shot when you figure group sizes. 3/4 MOA is impressive, and to touch a 1/2 MOA for me personally is better than I can recall in a very long time.
This has been an interesting series of posts, I hope you can keep it going.
Thanks
This has been an interesting series of posts, I hope you can keep it going.
Thanks
Thank you, sadly I can't get reject barrels like this on a regular basis, but I do have a few to play with.
richdkim77
04-10-17, 07:28
Thank you, sadly I can't get reject barrels like this on a regular basis, but I do have a few to play with.
Sure you can. There is a big pile of them!
Sure you can. There is a big pile of them!
....and I here I thought I was going to get abuse when I saw you had posted. If I had feelings, I would consider feeling bad. :p
fallenromeo
04-10-17, 17:25
This was a very interesting read, thank you. And Kudos to you for giving it to a disabled vet.
This was a very interesting read, thank you. And Kudos to you for giving it to a disabled vet.
There are a lot of us who are vets, and disabled. In this case, this is the type that really deserves it, and wouldn't be able to run out and buy one on his own. It is nice to be able to help out the good guys after they are forgotten and kicked to the side. I end up being in a situation where I'm able to make a difference, I have no doubt most people on this board would do the same thing if my place was swapped with theirs.
As others have said, thank you for a very interesting read & for helping a vet.
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