View Full Version : Black Hills 5.56mm 77 gr TMK and 69 gr TMK Review
I got the chance to try some Black Hills 5.56mm New Factory TMK ammo in 69 grain and 77 grain bullet weights. We run a 77 gr SMK house load in .223 pressure/velocity, so I thought we'd use that as the baseline, and go from there.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/20170317_143451_zps7b1bavyg.jpg
I initially wondered why they would take the 69 gr to the 5.56mm loading, but after our first time running the ammo today, I think this load is going to be something very impressive.
The ammo comes in the same red/black box that Mk262 does with the nice plastic insert that protects the ammo. The box insert holds the ammo by the neck to protect the round and the bullet. Both of these loads come in LC brass with primer crimps and the visible annealing iris.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/20170325_064250_zpsaxppkmae.jpg
We only got to fire a box of each load today... getting the administrative stuff out of the way.... (POI check, chrono, etc.) The POI seems to come up very slightly for both loads. 1/2" high of POA which makes sense due to the higher velocities. We used the Magnetospeed today: Pappabear with his 20 inch 5R Rem 700
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/20170326_085937_zpspyalaqa9.jpg
Using the above pictured bolt gun, we captured the following:
The 77 gr logged 2825 FPS with an SD of 10.
The 69 gr logged 2969 FPS with an SD of 12.
Both very nice velocities and standard deviations.
At 500 yards, (we'll have to confirm this again) the 69 gr appeared to have a little edge over the 77 gr. Both of the loads creamed our SMK come up of 3.5 mils.
The 77 got there with 2.9 mils, and the 69 gr got there with an even lower 2.7 mils. I hope to be able to figure out at what range the 77 takes over, but I was really impressed with both at 500.
At 640 yards, (fighting mirage by now) Both rounds were getting good hits with 4.0 mils of come up. (impressive compared to my .308 175 gr SMK 20" bolt gun come up of 5.0 mils)
At 900 yards, the 69 gr load was getting on steel with 8.5 mils of come up. (vs. 10.0 using a 77 smk .223 load)
At this point, we were miraged out and getting hot... so we'll get back after it over the next several weeks. But so far, it's been easy to get quantifiable performance improvements over standard velocity ammo.
SeriousStudent
03-26-17, 19:14
This should be an interesting thread to follow. I remember Sinister also having kind words for 69-grain loading as well.
I got some of that 69-grain stuff a while back, but have not had a chance to run it through my BCM Recce-ish carbine.
The 69 blew me away for sure. Our spot is often a mirage and wind torture chamber. We have a lot of distance, but it's challenging and even frustrating many days.
SeriousStudent
03-26-17, 19:38
That sounds the perfect place to shoot. :)
Very happy to see this thread. I've wondered how the 69gr TMK would do. I'm generally limited to about 1/4 mile, so I wonder if the 69gr load would be hard to beat at that distance. How did it compare with wind drift to the 77gr load?
How did it compare with wind drift to the 77gr load?
I just don't know yet. I hope to be able to make that assessment, but we literally watch the wind ribbons reverse in the same 5 shot string. If this continues, we'll have to get two guns (with mil reticles) running at the same time.
When did markm start liking Black Hills Ammunition?
I must have missed something.
When did markm start liking Black Hills Ammunition?
I must have missed something.
Yeah... I kinda got burned out on the benchrest dogma that'd I had subscribed to for a period in my life. Specifically when I had some of those kind of fags (on this site) telling me that what I was doing was WRONG... even though I was gettin better than half MOA results.
We ended up shooting some factory Mk262 from Black Hills. And on that day it kicked my ammo's ass on S.D., velocity, etc. So we've been shooting some B.H. 5.56 ammo with good results.
When you let the bullets tell the story, and let go of what the calipers, gauges, and instrumentation are saying... you make better calls. I'm not letting go of my .223 77 gr OTM load at all. But I will post quantifiable results.. even when my hand loads get beat. ;)
Yeah... I kinda got burned out on the benchrest dogma that'd I had subscribed to for a period in my life. Specifically when I had some of those kind of fags (on this site) telling me that what I was doing was WRONG... even though I was gettin better than half MOA results.
We ended up shooting some factory Mk262 from Black Hills. And on that day it kicked my ammo's ass on S.D., velocity, etc. So we've been shooting some B.H. 5.56 ammo with good results.
When you let the bullets tell the story, and let go of what the calipers, gauges, and instrumentation are saying... you make better calls. I'm not letting go of my .223 77 gr OTM load at all. But I will post quantifiable results.. even when my hand loads get beat. ;)
It's good to see you give Black Hills a shot, as long as you don't go all out full gueer and start using Sprinco springs and LWRC piston rifles. :no:
Another notable, but should be obvious with the SD's Mark posted, the ammo shot sub moa. It also shot sub moa out of my SPR Reece ish guns. One has a Centurion barrel and one has a NOVESKE. Both 16 inch tubes.
I think my Noveske is so nasty dirty it took about 30 rounds burnt through it before the groups tightened up. It didn't shoot great, so I went back to our house load, shot like shit, .....asked Mark shoot it a while. Then at the end, it shot a nice sub moa group. Time to bore swab that bad boy.
It's good to see you give Black Hills a shot, as long as you don't go all out full gueer and start using Sprinco springs and LWRC piston rifles. :no:
I had to put some Springcos into a few of Pappabear's guns. I thought about throwing them out and subbing correct springs. ;)
I had to put some Springcos into a few of Pappabear's guns. I thought about throwing them out and subbing correct springs. ;)
Wow, that's bad but Pappabear has always been a bit more of a hippie than you... Are those the Sprinco springs that that "enabler" Iraqgunz gave you guys?
I only buy Colt springs. :happy:
Pappabear, did you get a chance to chrono it out of your 16" guns?
Have you guys had a chance to test any of the other popular faux MK262 loads? I was all about my Defender stuff but the velocities seem a little low compared to the real thing...
Pappabear, did you get a chance to chrono it out of your 16" guns?
Have you guys had a chance to test any of the other popular faux MK262 loads? I was all about my Defender stuff but the velocities seem a little low compared to the real thing...
We are going to do that next just confirm data. But we did it on the first run of BH stuff and it was solid.
We will run 16, 14.5, 11.5, 10.3 and post.
We were thinking about doing them with and without cans.
PB
I had to put some Springcos into a few of Pappabear's guns. I thought about throwing them out and subbing correct springs. ;)
All he would have done is put them in his guns. He loves my Sprincos , I saw his eyes when he looked at them. Can't fool a Pappabear.
Have you guys had a chance to test any of the other popular faux MK262 loads?
We haven't. When you can load your own, it's not often that you buy very many factory loads. If I saw some of the options locally, I'd pick up a box or two to play with. Oddly enough.. I hate going into gun stores.
SeriousStudent
03-28-17, 22:54
I did a little bit of thread surgery here. This thread has great potential, and I'd love to see it stay on track. Thank you.
I'd also be really interested on the data from various barrel lengths, both suppressed and unsuppressed.
Thanks. Yeah... I think Pappabear is bringing his chrono next time. My model of Magnetospeed won't work with suppressors.
Thanks. Yeah... I think Pappabear is bringing his chrono next time. My model of Magnetospeed won't work with suppressors.
I thought you guys had a Labradar too?
I thought you guys had a Labradar too?
No. Wow... I just googled that. I've never heard of it. Very interesting.
No. Wow... I just googled that. I've never heard of it. Very interesting.
Ok, my bad. I saw another "markm" on different forum discussing the Labradar & I thought it might be you.
Dang, I was just out in your neck of the woods last week for 8 days. I could've brought mine with for you to try out. They're awesome. I'll never use another chrono again.
Good poop. It would be nice for people to actually go out and break glass ceilings instead of blaming the Russians. I need to get you some of that FN M855 to get some DOPE on it.
fedupflyer
04-01-17, 00:47
My model of Magnetospeed won't work with suppressors.
The Magnetospeed is great but the software the have for the Iphone blowz.
The Magnetospeed is great but the software the have for the Iphone blowz.
I don't mess with any software. We'll shoot a string and make the call right there. Pen and paper for the info, and then clear the string out.
We're heading back out today. I can't wait to shoot the 69s again.
SeriousStudent
04-01-17, 12:36
Very cool, I'm looking forward to reading the results when you gents get them posted.
I'll post some data tomorrow. We knocked out a chrono-rama session today... walking down in barrel length from 16 to 10.3.
Good data to follow, but a word of caution, mark drilled the 500 yard target with a RDS on his first 3 hits with his BH ammo, so some braggin to follow amongst the data.
PB
Good poop. It would be nice for people to actually go out an break glass ceilings instead of blaming the Russians. I need to get you some of that FN M855 to get some DOPE on it.
I almost bought various ammo at Sportsmans to try among the Black Hills, but I was busted disgusted and could not be trusted, so I passed. But we'll take your generous offer. You must want us to try Russian ammo, we will stick with their primers LOL.
PB
Good data to follow, but a word of caution, mark drilled the 500 yard target with a RDS on his first 3 hits with his BH ammo, so some braggin to follow amongst the data.
PB
Yes! With the spring mirage starting to make our efforts challenging, it gets hard to make difficult shots. We took the dope from last week and knew these amazing 69 gr TMKs were going to please.
So knowing the round needed 2.7 mils out of a 20" bolt gun, I used a reticle to find a 3.0 mil holdover (estimate) for a 14.5 gas gun. Jumped back on the 14.5 BCM KMR middy, got a wind call, and rang the 500 first shot. A total of 3 times in a row with a holosun RDS. I was really please, and quit after 3 in a row so I wouldn't screw it up.
My model of Magnetospeed won't work with suppressors.
That's an interesting one. Do you know why? I would think that all it's looking for is an object breaking two radar planes, but I'll admit, my chrono-knowledge is limited to reading online and a base knowledge of physics.
Here's some of the chrono data for those interested:
16" barrel:
77 gr 2713 fps, SD 13 -------> with no suppressor 2703, sd 15
69 gr 2833 fps, SD 10
14.5" barrel:
77 gr 2648 fps, sd 21
69 gr 2776 fps, sd 31
11.5" barrel:
77 gr 2520 fps, sd 12 -----> with no suppressor 2498 fps, sd 20
69 gr 2520 fps, sd 20
We seemed to see a little free bore boost above.
10.5 and 10.3 Colt were a little interesting:
10.5"
77 gr 2436, sd 8
69 gr 2540, sd 19
10.3"
77 gr 2406 fps, sd 13 (30 fps slower than the 10.5)
69 gr 2499 fps, sd 14 (41 fps slower than the 10.5)
We had one bad mag that "bolt overed" in a few of our guns, ruining 3 live rounds. So we threw the mag down range and shot it. The TMKs in this load have a cannalure. You can't see it peeking out of the neck, but it's there. I found the cannalure when I pulled apart a few of the 77gr rounds that the bad mag destroyed.
The SDs are all really good for our 5 round strings. The ammo is hot, for sure. I can feel it on my 14.5 bcm middy, and most of the shorties. But there aren't any pressure signs on the brass at all. No case head swipes or anything.
...So we threw the mag down range and shot it.
This is about the best part of any thread. I hate bad mags.
That's an interesting one. Do you know why? I would think that all it's looking for is an object breaking two radar planes, but I'll admit, my chrono-knowledge is limited to reading online and a base knowledge of physics.
It's not the why, it's the how. They attach to the muzzle end of the firearm. Some models aren't compatible with suppressors.
Magnetospeeds don't measure velocity by "breaking two radar planes". (Not sure any chronos do). They're electromagnetic, not radar or optical.
We seemed to see a little free bore boost above.
10.5 and 10.3 Colt were a little interesting:
10.5"
77 gr 2436, sd 8
69 gr 2540, sd 19
10.3"
77 gr 2406 fps, sd 13 (30 fps slower than the 10.5)
69 gr 2499 fps, sd 14 (41 fps slower than the 10.5)
This one surprised me the most. Lost that much speed going from 10.5 to 10.3, wow. Im sure other factors are at play. Any of the great minds know if the shorter the barrel, the more speed you lose per inch of barrel. And would you have expected that drop?
FYI, the 10.3 was a Colt 6945 monolithic upper with a Sig can on it.
The 10.5 was a CL Noveske with AAC can on it.
Mark has some can , no can data as well. But everything pretty much played out like it should with the test as a whole which proves out once again the ammo is very consistent and reliable.
PB
My guess would be the slower Colt barrel being the culprit- or the Noveske is "fast".
.2" shouldn't account for the velocity loss you experienced.
Tighter/looser chambers would be where I'd start looking.
Of course you could cut .2" off the Noveske and see what velocity you lose.
I'm really enjoying your experiences here, so much so that I've ordered some 69 gr. TMK to try myself.
I have a DD 10.3 that Im going to have to chrono just for shits and giggles. I didn't want to take 9 million guns out, but It would have been more data. We'll find out who was fast or slow and post.
PB
Good plan.
Let us know the score.
pyrotechnic
04-04-17, 19:32
That's an interesting one. Do you know why? I would think that all it's looking for is an object breaking two radar planes, but I'll admit, my chrono-knowledge is limited to reading online and a base knowledge of physics.
The magnetospeed uses the magnetic field generated by the moving projectile to induce a voltage. Time between the voltage spikes of the two sensors is uses to determine projectile speed. Proximity of the sensors to the traveling projectile is paramount to the operation of the chronograph. Their Sporter model does not have enough adjustment available to allow for the large diameter of a can.
The lab radar is pretty slick and will track your round out to about 100yds.
I'm really enjoying your experiences here, so much so that I've ordered some 69 gr. TMK to try myself.
The 69 gr is the surprise performer. I'd like to frag test it against the 77s in some water jugs.
Are you seeing any issues with the plastic tips and reliability in your tests? I wanted to grab some TMKs for my KAC LPR but was told TMKs don't play well with semi-autos... Seems weird that Sierra would bother with .223 TMKs if they couldn't be shot in semi-autos...
Not a bit. I think we've shot some of the TMKs in my own hand loads too. No issues at all with the tips. My loads didn't fly as fast as this factory ammo, but none of what we've shot has been an issue.
Ran the 77 gr TMKs out to this 1000 yard target today with Pappabear's 16" SPR. Wind was mild which is a huge help. Last week Pappabear clipped the cactus thing on the right with a TMK. It's tough to thread a bullet between the cacti.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/20170409_080749_zpsztgndmk2.jpg
With the mild wind, we racked up several first round hits at 900. The 77 TMK beat a hot (3014 fps) 62 gr boat tail hollow point by a full mil. (8.5 vs 9.5 mils) out of the 20 inch bolt gun.
I was able to go 3 for 3 with a red dot sight at 500 again today with the BCM 14.5 middy KMR. I was pleased to repeat these shots from last week.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/20170409_095747_zpsmxppirp8.jpg
Are you seeing any issues with the plastic tips and reliability in your tests? I wanted to grab some TMKs for my KAC LPR but was told TMKs don't play well with semi-autos... Seems weird that Sierra would bother with .223 TMKs if they couldn't be shot in semi-autos...
We have run TMK's out of 10 different guns with no issue. Buy with confidence.
"I was able to go 3 for 3 with a red dot sight at 500 again today with the BCM 14.5 middy KMR. I was pleased to repeat these shots from last week."
Well done. Crazy well done.
2 minute dot on the micro RD? (Holosun?)
What size is your 500 yd. target?
Even with the desert terrain/coloration I'd have trouble picking up anything much smaller than a billboard at 500 with unaided eyes.
Well done. Crazy well done.
2 minute dot on the micro RD? (Holosun?)
What size is your 500 yd. target?
Even with the desert terrain/coloration I'd have trouble picking up anything much smaller than a billboard at 500 with unaided eyes.
It's an IDPA size gong. Fairly large. Both times I shot it, I had 10 rounds in the mag and quit after 3 so I didn't screw it up. :cool:
Pappabear ran his 11.5" Sionics reduced gas port gun with ACOG out to 640. I think he was holding the 500 yard hash on the reticle at the top of the IDPA size gong to get hits.
It's an IDPA size gong. Fairly large. Both times I shot it, I had 10 rounds in the mag and quit after 3 so I didn't screw it up. :cool:
Pappabear ran his 11.5" Sionics reduced gas port gun with ACOG out to 640. I think he was holding the 500 yard hash on the reticle at the top of the IDPA size gong to get hits.
The black hills was dead on with my ACOG at both 500 and 640. It's nice to be able to put the reticle on the target and it hits. Our 77's require a slight hold over at longer ranges due to I suspect ACOGS being calibrated for lighter faster bullets. But the heavy BH makes up for the difference.
Whatever the hold is, you just need to learn it. But it's still cool.
PB
So the efficient bullet B.C. and the hot load made the ACOG reticle good with a shorter barrel.
nightchief
04-11-17, 19:18
With markm, pappabear and Eurodriver showing what can be done with the 77 gr TMK's, I wanted to push the distance on my Precision Rifle out as far as I could. Rifle is an AR build with a 18" Larue barrel and using an NF SHV F1 4-14 scope.
44984
I've been reliably hitting a half size IPSC steel target at 500 yards. Also hitting an 8" gong about 80% of the time at the same distance, a little better when there is less wind. Here's the rub for me though...
I'm able to get between 1.25 and 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with Hornady 75 gr...
44982
and slightly larger groups with IMI 5.56 77 gr SMK (mk 262 clone)...
44983
BH 5.56 77 gr TMK group was an ugly approx 3 MOA group.
44985
Trying understand having seemingly better accuracy at longer distance. I'm fairly new to longer range shooting and understanding ammo and ballistic info. So I'm curious if this is simply shooter failure or something else. I haven't had a chance to shoot BH 69 gr TMK yet either.
Any advice, insight or criticism is more than welcome here.
NC
FWIW my larue 308 barrel will shoot 168 FGMM well, very well for that matter, but shoots every other match ammo I've tried terribly. Could be a similar situation where you have to find what it likes.
How many groups of the BH did you try? I would say shoot three groups? 3 moa is insane , but ....
Is your barrel rated for 5.56 or .223? One possibility ?
Your gun might not like real hot ammo.
I want to go back and shoot the TMK's vs the OTM variety. But Ive never shot anything over moa with BH ammo.
PB
nightchief
04-11-17, 19:46
How many groups of the BH did you try? I would say shoot three groups? 3 moa is insane , but ....
Is your barrel rated for 5.56 or .223? One possibility ?
Your gun might not like real hot ammo.
I want to go back and shoot the TMK's vs the OTM variety. But Ive never shot anything over moa with BH ammo.
PB
LaRue barrel is a 223 Wylde chamber. This is the first measured group I have shot with the BH 77gr TMK's. Been using it at 500 yards quite a bit and hitting steel with pretty good results. I started using it after watching Euro shoot his 8" gong during the hurricane. At the range where I do most of my shooting, we usually have 10-20 mph winds, so I figured the heavy bullet would maintain better accuracy in high wind. It seems to, but I agree about BH ammo, ususally shoots way better that the result I got. I was getting better that that from a chrome lined 16 " BCM barrel (BH 77gr OTM).
LaRue barrel is a 223 Wylde chamber. This is the first measured group I have shot with the BH 77gr TMK's.
That barrel just doesn't like the load. We had one SPR barrel two weeks ago that spread out a bigger group like that with one of the loads... While the other barrels were just fine.
nightchief
04-11-17, 21:50
FWIW my larue 308 barrel will shoot 168 FGMM well, very well for that matter, but shoots every other match ammo I've tried terribly. Could be a similar situation where you have to find what it likes.
You may be right. Markm suggested the same thing. I'd like to be able to blame the barrel and not the shooter! :)
nightchief
04-11-17, 21:52
That barrel just doesn't like the load. We had one SPR barrel two weeks ago that spread out a bigger group like that with one of the loads... While the other barrels were just fine.
Perhaps the 69 gr load would work better. Have you hand loaded the 69 or 77 TMK bullets with equivalent success tot he BH factory load?
That barrel just doesn't like the load. We had one SPR barrel two weeks ago that spread out a bigger group like that with one of the loads... While the other barrels were just fine.
Yep, I forgot about that group. It was such a shit show, I disregarded it. Barrels do have their own opinion at times.
And that is a nice barrel you bought yourself.
PB
Perhaps the 69 gr load would work better. Have you hand loaded the 69 or 77 TMK bullets with equivalent success tot he BH factory load?
I loaded a box of 77 TMKs, but only observed the improve efficiency of the TMK. Never really developed a go to load.
nightchief
04-22-17, 01:08
On Thursday, I shot several different factory match loads through the LaRue Stealth barrel at 100 yards to check accuracy. Black Hills 556 77 gr TMK results were better this time...
45183
...and Black Hills 556 69 gr TMK's were ok...
45186
...however, still inferior to Hornady Match 75 223 gr OTM and Black Hills 556 77 gr OTM...
4518445185
Test was done shooting prone off a bipod with light wind at about 83 degrees. Interesting to me that the TMK's aren't doing better than the OTM loads. Perhaps the barrel just likes the OTM better.
We didn't do a complete study, but our impression was the TMK, cuts wind better and better ballistics, but the OTM's were grouped a little better. For a battle round, it's about a wash because either will get the job done. Good ammo.
PB
Barrels all have their own opinion. My SS410 Bravo barrel shoots 75 gr Hornady better with three powders. I'm finally getting acceptable accuracy from 77 gr SMKs with Varget, which won't run through a progressive press as consistently as a ball powder.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
nightchief
04-22-17, 17:49
We didn't do a complete study, but our impression was the TMK, cuts wind better and better ballistics, but the OTM's were grouped a little better. For a battle round, it's about a wash because either will get the job done. Good ammo.
PB
I agree that at distance, the TKM's really shine, as they don't get blown around very much. Once I've found the correct hold over, I get consistent hits on the gong at 500 yards, even with windy conditions.
Barrels all have their own opinion. My SS410 Bravo barrel shoots 75 gr Hornady better with three powders. I'm finally getting acceptable accuracy from 77 gr SMKs with Varget, which won't run through a progressive press as consistently as a ball powder.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We use H322, Russian primers with remarkable results. Our 77's Nosler and SMK AND TMK sub moa with multiple barrels.
Varget seems like a ruff way to go for 223 AMMO.
Let me know if you want load data, best of luck
PB
Sure I'd love to see it.
My current recipes for most of my rifles is TAC, CCI 450s and 7x gr bullets of whichever flavor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure I'd love to see it.
My current recipes for most of my rifles is TAC, CCI 450s and 7x gr bullets of whichever flavor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PappaBear's load info has worked well for me with SMKs, TMKs, and 75gr BTHPs. Their 69gr SMK load has also worked well in every rifle I've ever used it in.
What is your TAC load?
I would have to look it up but I want to say it's 23.8.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Our goal for tomorrow it so get a confirmed 1300 yard hit with the 77 gr TMK. We've never had a NO DOUBT 1300 yard confirmed hit with anything under .308 due to the bullet running out of ass at that distance, but we're shooting that trial first thing in the morning.
I would have to look it up but I want to say it's 23.8.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is a money load for me with 77gr Noslers and CCI41s. 23.7 or 23.8gr of TAC works equally well. Very consistent sub-moa results in a 223 wylde Rainier arms 18" ultra-match.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Our goal for tomorrow it so get a confirmed 1300 yard hit with the 77 gr TMK. We've never had a NO DOUBT 1300 yard confirmed hit with anything under .308 due to the bullet running out of ass at that distance, but we're shooting that trial first thing in the morning.
Using a bolt gun or AR?
We use H322, Russian primers with remarkable results. Our 77's Nosler and SMK AND TMK sub moa with multiple barrels.
Varget seems like a ruff way to go for 223 AMMO.
Let me know if you want load data, best of luck
PB
I'd be curious to see as well. Are you getting fragmentation velocities out of the H322?
Moreover, we can expect frag velocity to be different with the addition of the polymer tip.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yea, we wanted to do some bucket and telephone book test with the two loads to see how they fragged. Mark used a bolt gun for 1,300 yards.
And he can confirm but he used to dump 21.8 grains of H322 with wolf small rifle primers. Any ole brass worked fine typically. But the load shoots moa in 10 different guns. And half inch in several guns. Several guys on the forum have used the load with success.
Primers matter, which sucks because the wolf are not available any more. Tula primers are nice too.
PB
I'd be curious to see as well. Are you getting fragmentation velocities out of the H322?
20 inch bolt 2889 fps with a hot load I have on record. I think most recent powder lots were in the 2663 fps range.
16 gas gun 2527 fps and another 16 inch gun was 2570fps
10.5 gas gun 2260 fps
If we want a little hotter load we run XBR and gain some velocity. The load was built for accuracy more than speed. Also, the brass lives to shoot another day.
PB
Surprising the shorty outruns the 16".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Surprising the shorty outruns the 16".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yea, that is impossible. I must have screwed that record up. We had some very hot XBR powder, 1 8lb jug and it screwed us up for a while. those numbers were very near that data so .... I was pulling data off my cell while posting with my cell, No way that happened. I'll fix that tard post.
What velocities are you looking for with 77's?
I guess its time to take the guns out and chrono our loads again. Our summer numbers are typically a little hotter. And we run through the H322 pretty good. We recently started mixing all the jugs up so we have one consistent lot/load.
But the hot summers still change things for us when it gets about 8,000 degrees.
PB
PB
I'd like to be around 2600 and accurate. I'm finally doing better but like you said, Varget it a pain to load. I'm thinking about switching back to TAC and trying to tweak it til I get some accuracy but I may try a pound of the H322.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Using a bolt gun or AR?
Bolt gun. We got it. Finally. I picked the 77s, because I thought they had the best chance. We've tried shooting the 1300 yard gong with .223/5.56 before with no luck at all. I mean... no dirt kick up on the hill or anything.
The NSX on the bolt gun only came up 17.0 mils. We shot that and got the impact on the hill. 2 mils low and 3 mils of wind. On the second shot, I just held the extra 2 mils, held the wind correction, and "tink". We finally got it. I tried 6 more times, but just danced around the steel. That distance is way beyond realistic 5.56 shooting, but I've wanted to accomplish this for some time.
This is the target (white object high on the hill):
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/IMG_1366_zps0n2jhpfe.jpg
Moreover, we can expect frag velocity to be different with the addition of the polymer tip.
My guess is yes. In my unscientific water jug test, the TMK appeared to frag a noticeable amount more than OTM. All of them are well within frag velocities with even a 10.5 barrel.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/greentip_zpsjrwuzdyq.jpg
Fordtough25
04-26-17, 08:47
Thanks much for this thread!! I picked up some of the Black hills 77 grain last weekend and am excited to try them out in my Noveske. Keep up the good work!!
1300 is ridiculous. Nice shooting and spotting. I bet that was fun!
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
Reminiscent of Billy Dixon's shot at Adobe Walls.
Don't think I'll be slapping my ass and taunting you from my pony at that distance.
Salty.
I really think atmospheric conditions must have been perfect. Because I hit the 1,300 yard gong with my LMT MWS with MEN 147g surplus ammo. Now with SMK's , good but no big deal. It's good surplus ammo but we both busted out laughing. The other thing, in both scenarios, the misses were right around the target.
Usually when your way out of range, you see hits 25 yards apart. Mother Nature smiled upon shooters on this day.
PB
Well, being good AND lucky is a formidable combination.
Because I hit the 1,300 yard gong with my LMT MWS with MEN 147g surplus ammo.
This was impressive because MEN 7.62 ammo is loaded much milder than XM180 and is a load that, AT BEST, would be realistically shot out to 600 yards.
We haven't. When you can load your own, it's not often that you buy very many factory loads. If I saw some of the options locally, I'd pick up a box or two to play with. Oddly enough.. I hate going into gun stores. So, it's 'not just me" !!!!! :)
So, it's 'not just me" !!!!! :)
Nope. There's one good store here in AZ.... Merchant Firearms. Other than that... Forget it.
We got some good video of the 69s at 500 yards yesterday. We'll figger a way to upload them this week.
I got back on the 69 gr TMKs today with Pappabear's 5R bolt gun (20" barrel). At 500 yards, the come up is 2.8 mils. Our 77 gr OTM house load and our 175 gr .308 load is 3.5 mils. A .7 mil gain at 500 yards is remarkable. This round is Black Hills hidden gem.
We went to the ranch a couple weeks ago with a few boxes of this load.
Now we could only shoot to 400 yds, the cattle were milling around in the adjacent pasture which prevented using our 500/600 yd. positions.
I did notice a tremendous difference in drop between the Speer 64 gr. GD (granted, .223 pressure) and the 69 gr TMK.
I think at 400 the difference in drop was near 8".
The TMK POI was quite close to the ranging "ticks" on several 1-6 and 1-8 scopes past 300, while the GD (which has been a preferred Whitetail round to 300) was way off.
The accuracy in several guns was MOA or a bit better as well.
Overall I was quite impressed with the round and look forward to stretching it's legs in the next few weeks.
With a 20" LMT LM8MRPSC20 and a Labradar;
I am getting 2839 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 8.5, and a ES of 29 with BH 5,56mm 77gr TMK.
I am getting 2944 fps over 10 shots, with a SD OF 20.1 and a ES of 54 with BH 5,56mm 69gr TMK.
I am getting 2819 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 11.9 and a ES of 41 with IMI 5,56mm 77gr Razor Core.
I am getting 2510 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 19.3 and a ES of 60 with FGMM 77gr SMK.
I am getting 2768 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 9.1 and a ES of 24 with Win 77gr Match.
I am getting 2616 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 10 and a ES of 30 with Hornady 75gr Steel Match.
I am getting 2680 fps over 10 shots, with a SD of 29.7 and a ES of 105 with Hornady's new 73gr ELD Match.
With a 16" LMT LM8MRPSC
BH 5,56mm 77gr TMK 2734 fps, SD 15.4, ES 46.
BH 5,56mm 69gr TMK 2812 fps, SD 20.2, ES 73
IMI 5,56mm 77gr Razor Core 2707 fps, SD 17.1, ES 58
FGMM 77gr 2403 fps, SD 12.2, ES 39
Winchester 77gr match 2645 fps, SD 19, ES 60
Hornady 75gr Steel Match 2514 fps, SD 34, ES 84
Hornady 73gr ELD Match 2577 fps, SD 15.3, ES 44
The BH 5,56mm 77gr TMK, IMI 77gr Razor Core, Win 77gr Match, FGMM 77gr, and Hornady 75gr SM all shot lights out in both rifles.
I was very disappointed with the 69gr TMK in these two rifles, but have more I need to try the 69gr TMK in before I give it the chop.
Hootie, some good data. I think BH OTM shoots better than the TMK for pure accuracy. I don't know why and maybe its just in my rifles. So try some BH OTM, which is the regular SMk's, cartridges before you crap out on the BH load. They are my preferred load from BH.
Its pretty impressive how they crush everybody in velocity while maintaining accuracy. You can always post pics of the BH ammo by those bad ass LMT rifles if you feel the need to be repping some quality stuff.
PB
Hootie, some good data. I think BH OTM shoots better than the TMK for pure accuracy. I don't know why and maybe its just in my rifles. So try some BH OTM, which is the regular SMk's, cartridges before you crap out on the BH load. They are my preferred load from BH.
Its pretty impressive how they crush everybody in velocity while maintaining accuracy. You can always post pics of the BH ammo by those bad ass LMT rifles if you feel the need to be repping some quality stuff.
PB
I will do that! I had close to 2000 rounds of the BH 5,56mm 77gr TMK put back but have shot close to 400 rounds of it in testing and coyote hunting. You just cannot beat it IMHO for a solid defensive load that can reach out there. For the $ I have been VERY pleased with the IMI Razor Core stuff too, but as far as social ammo the TMK is definitely one I have been stocking up on. I havea stack of targets I have been saving showing groups I have shot with the stuff I intend to post. I have also killed a few coyotes and the stuff is sho-nuff deadly.
I have a few shorty uppers including (2) of the dimpled KAC 14.5" uppers I recently picked up that I plan on testing this ammo with. I'll post the results here when done.
I'd suggest you send those KAC uppers to me for testing. ��
Doc. Holiday
08-17-17, 13:43
Awesome thread guys! Pappabear, I noticed that you said Varget was pretty harsh for .223 in an earlier post during this thread. Why so? I ask because I have heard a lot of great things about Varget for .223.
Varget is hard to meter, and it has bad bulk density. I.e. compressed loads.
H322, XBR, etc work much better for us.
Doc. Holiday
08-17-17, 14:51
Thanks Markm, btw. I tried to PM you and it said your "inbox was full" lol. Delete some messages bro. I got some questions for you. :D
Mark will talk you into h322 for great 77 grain loads.
Good luck.
PB
Doc. Holiday
08-18-17, 09:05
Thanks guys
Last weekend we fired the 77s out to 1325 yards again. It was a quiet day where we got an audible on the main gong. No other 5.56 load has enough ass to confirm hits at that target.
Last weekend we fired the 77s out to 1325 yards again. It was a quiet day where we got an audible on the main gong. No other 5.56 load has enough ass to confirm hits at that target.
I’m not a lomg Range guy at all so this question might be wrong but how high above that target were you holding?
I’m not a lomg Range guy at all so this question might be wrong but how high above that target were you holding?
Shooter app says 75 feet of elevation. But this is done with a long range scope where we dialed in 19.3 mils.
PB
I'm dialing 5.7 MIL (13.6') at 800 yds (furthest I've shot the 5.56) with IMI 77 gr.
Think this was with a 20 MOA mount.
Getting hits at 1300 yds.+ with a 5.56 is pretty salty.
The winds we have here would make that difficult as hell.
Nicely done guys.
Shooter app says 75 feet of elevation. But this is done with a long range scope where we dialed in 19.3 mils.
PB
Dang that blows my mind. The most elevation I've dialed with 77gr in my SPR was in the ballpark of 12 mils. And I was missing my plate so much decided to move closer. The wind wasn't heavy but it was constantly changing. Misses were a little left, a little right, a little left ect, always changing the windage hold. How big was your plate?
Shooter app says 75 feet of elevation. But this is done with a long range scope where we dialed in 19.3 mils.
PB
Thanks for putting that into plain English.
Dang that blows my mind. The most elevation I've dialed with 77gr in my SPR was in the ballpark of 12 mils. And I was missing my plate so much decided to move closer. The wind wasn't heavy but it was constantly changing. Misses were a little left, a little right, a little left ect, always changing the windage hold. How big was your plate?
The plate is a homemade deal a buddy of mine made, I would guess about 1.5X IPSC targets.
We have been wind screwed many times as well. Everybody has!
We have been trying to hit a tiny plate, smaller than a head shot for weeks. After we hit the big plate and know our DOPE, we move over to it. We dance around that SOB week after week. Last week, Mark sent it flying, we drove up and it must have been an inch off. Aim small miss small is legit stuff.
Jwknutson17
06-03-18, 19:10
I'm dialing 5.7 MIL (13.6') at 800 yds (furthest I've shot the 5.56) with IMI 77 gr.
Think this was with a 20 MOA mount.
Getting hits at 1300 yds.+ with a 5.56 is pretty salty.
The winds we have here would make that difficult as hell.
Nicely done guys.
I second this. Good job fellas. I just shot 700 yesterday with 77smks and was dialing 5.4 mils with a 14.5 barrel. We're also at 7k feet here.
1300 is impressive. My 14.5 would run out of legs long before that range.
I second this. Good job fellas. I just shot 700 yesterday with 77smks and was dialing 5.4 mils with a 14.5 barrel. We're also at 7k feet here.
1300 is impressive. My 14.5 would run out of legs long before that range.
This is not something we can do with regularity, the atmospheric conditions have to be perfect. There have been times when we couldn't even see our misses. But it is a testament to BH ammo. Our house load will often tumble in transition. But it gives us a big laugh when we hit it.
PB
Jwknutson17
06-04-18, 10:40
This is not something we can do with regularity, the atmospheric conditions have to be perfect. There have been times when we couldn't even see our misses. But it is a testament to BH ammo. Our house load will often tumble in transition. But it gives us a big laugh when we hit it.
PB
I hear ya. Either way, I'm still impressed!
The gong doesn't move with 5.56. So when we don't see dirt kick up, we have to stand by and listen for the ring.
Jwknutson17
06-04-18, 19:33
The gong doesn't move with 5.56. So when we don't see dirt kick up, we have to stand by and listen for the ring.
I leaned this the hard when buying thicker 1/2 AR500 steel for distance targets. Can't hear much with 5.56 compared to heavier pills in other calibers.
Yep.
Last batch of steel I went with 3/8" and it's still overkill/can't hear ring past 300 yds and 3/8" probably totally unnecessary past 2/300 yds.
I may try 1/4" AR500 next time and reserve the thick stuff for closer range/hotter rifle rounds.
I think Mark bought us the 1/4 inch steel for distance. Past 500 yards.
PB
Yep.
Last batch of steel I went with 3/8" and it's still overkill/can't hear ring past 300 yds and 3/8" probably totally unnecessary past 2/300 yds.
I may try 1/4" AR500 next time and reserve the thick stuff for closer range/hotter rifle rounds.
I went 1/4'' and think it is the way to go for shooting 223/5.56 at longish ranges. I went from 3/8 with thick chains to 1/4'' with this poly stuff. So much better to carry, and hits are easily noticeable. The closest I've shot this set up was 500 yards and it handled it fine. It looks like a teddy bear, but is actually very rude.
https://i.imgur.com/bQFxdUY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/103rVJt.gif
I wish this had sound.
FWIW my larue 308 barrel will shoot 168 FGMM well, very well for that matter, but shoots every other match ammo I've tried terribly.
Off-topic to MarkM’s 5.56 thread ... but for the 7.62x51 load, many find a 168-grn OTM over 44-grns of Varget to pretty much duplicate the Fed GM Match loading. I tune from there using Dan Newberry’s ‘optimal charge weight’ method and find that ideal for long distance loads and finding the sweet spot for the powder.
I went 1/4'' and think it is the way to go for shooting 223/5.56 at longish ranges. I went from 3/8 with thick chains to 1/4'' with this poly stuff. So much better to carry, and hits are easily noticeable. The closest I've shot this set up was 500 yards and it handled it fine. It looks like a teddy bear, but is actually very rude.
https://i.imgur.com/103rVJt.gif
I wish this had sound.
Nice.
You can clearly see the bullet "trace"/vapor trail in your film.
Wish they were all as obvious.
We have one of my 1/4" gongs at 1000 yards. Our buddy popped it with a 50 cal ball round. It put a decent dent in the thing but didn't punch it. 1/4" is the way to go if you can get away with it. Lighter to transport, rings a lot better, etc.
vicious_cb
06-06-18, 03:00
I dont care much for long range shooting, but I buy 77gr TMK because it does this:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/77grTMK_06.jpg
Ned Christiansen
06-06-18, 06:40
Teddy bear? More like a panda bear with its hands up! That's just wrong :bad:
titsonritz
06-06-18, 06:59
Last weekend we fired the 77s out to 1325 yards again. It was a quiet day where we got an audible on the main gong. No other 5.56 load has enough ass to confirm hits at that target.
I'm not sure what is more impressive, the fact that you guys did it or that the round did. Well done.
What is the calculated velocity under those conditions...subsonic?
Good question. The only time I've seen trans-sonic disruption is with my .308 20" Rem 700 with 12 twist. With 168s smk, it fans bullets over about a 15 foot radius at 1000 yards. Pappa's 16" LMT MWS, on the other hand with sling them right in there all day long.
Good question. The only time I've seen trans-sonic disruption is with my .308 20" Rem 700 with 12 twist. With 168s smk, it fans bullets over about a 15 foot radius at 1000 yards. Pappa's 16" LMT MWS, on the other hand with sling them right in there all day long.
Does the LMT have a 10 twist? 1000 yards is pretty good for 168s.
Does the LMT have a 10 twist? 1000 yards is pretty good for 168s.
That stupid LMT will shoot 147 MEN to a 1000 all day long. It's a freak gun.
Coal Dragger
06-15-18, 17:03
Doesn’t sound stupid to me...
Does it need a new home?
Doesn’t sound stupid to me...
Does it need a new home?
I don't see Pappabear giving up the LMT any time soon.
Doesn’t sound stupid to me...
Does it need a new home?
I’m
Kinda attached to that bad mofo. I had one and Obama sold it for me. Missed it dearly. Bought the second one and it was a 1.5 moa barrel. My buddy Loupav gave me 308 barrel. And it shoots sub moa all
Day long. Loui shoots his LMT IN 6.5. Has an HK for 308. He got that stuff buttoned up.
PB
I keep trying to like the 77TMK's, but just can't. They shoot poorly out of every gun I've shot them through.
I keep trying to like the 77TMK's, but just can't. They shoot poorly out of every gun I've shot them through.
Like 4 MOA poorly? I average 1.1" 5 shot groups at 100, and I had a chance to take that load to 800 on reduced silhouettes on several outings this summer. In comparison, my 77gr SMK loads shot under .8 MOA.
Like 4 MOA poorly? I average 1.1" 5 shot groups at 100, and I had a chance to take that load to 800 on reduced silhouettes on several outings this summer. In comparison, my 77gr SMK loads shot under .8 MOA.
2-3moa
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.