View Full Version : Geissele Super Charging Handle; looks can be deceiving
I was going to order a Raptor for my SR-15 Mod 2 this evening. I stopped by Cabela's on the way home. They had a couple Noveskes in the Gun Library; one had the Raptor the other had the Geissele. I've been ogling both online for a couple months. Visually, the Raptor looks more appealing to me. The Geissele looks "pointy" but whenever I have the rifle slung across my chest, I'm wearing body armor, so that's a non issue for me.
After handling both, I was completely dissuaded from ordering the Raptor. The Geissele was exponentially more comfortable to manipulate. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the stock KAC charging handle, but I have to do ambidextrous malfunction clearance drills and shoot left-handed when training/ qualifying.
Obviously, I won't be able to evaluate actual performance until I have one in my gun but if you're on the fence and can't physically handle both prior to purchase, the Geissele feels a lot better.
SomeOtherGuy
04-01-17, 22:23
After handling both, I was completely dissuaded from ordering the Raptor. The Geissele was exponentially more comfortable to manipulate. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the stock KAC charging handle, but I have to do ambidextrous malfunction clearance drills and shoot left-handed when training/ qualifying.
Comfortable does not always equal optimum usability. I find the M&P pistol far more comfy than a Glock, but I shoot well with a Glock, and not so well with the M&P. Anyway, I digress...
I've used the Raptor, Geissele, and BCM charging handles, with the Raptor and BCM extensively in 2-gun competitions. Both of those have worked well for me, no hiccups. The Geissele is also the most comfortable of the bunch for me, but I find it seems to require a longer and more deliberate pull to get it unlatched vs. the other two. The BCM is the least comfortable for me, but it works every time and costs less than 2/3 as much as the others. The ambi BCM is actually my favorite for functionality, still at lower cost.
The Geissele handle seems to have some kind of camming arrangement designed in, while the other two seem to have a more direct relationship between pulling on the left side and lifting the latch. I like fewer parts and simple direct relationships (in mechanical things, at least). To me the Geissele handle feels less direct and immediate. I am a fan of Geissele and without a doubt their charging handle is well made, but in my use I don't find a functional benefit.
If I'm missing something that makes the Geissele actually better, let me know. It seems like the newer $100 handles have displaced good ol' reliable BCM but the BCM is still a very solid option, especially with their ambi version available.
Equal (small) latches (BCM has same small latches on both sides too), serrations that not only mitigate horizontal movements but also vertical. If you look around charging handles, Geissele's is probably the only one with more than vertical serrations.
Geissele's latch serrations are probably overlooked by many, the first time I put my finger on it, I saw the simple solution nobody else had reached.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg.html)
Equal (small) latches (BCM has same small latches on both sides too), serrations that not only mitigate horizontal movements but also vertical. If you look around charging handles, Geissele's is probably the only one with more than vertical serrations.
Geissele's latch serrations are probably overlooked by many, the first time I put my finger on it, I saw the simple solution nobody else had reached.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg.html)
I couldn't agree more.
I have BCM Mod 3 and Mod 4 handles. I considered a Mod 44 ambi, but the two places I saw them in stock, there was less than $10 price difference between it and the Geissele. I guess I'll find out when it gets here if I like it functually. If not, then I'll wait until I can find the BCM at 2/3 the price. I agree with you on the benefits of simplicity of design in mechanical products.
I was at Grant's retail store a couple weeks ago and picked up a Geissele SD-C trigger. If he would have had a BCM Mod 44, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
titsonritz
04-01-17, 23:41
Equal (small) latches (BCM has same small latches on both sides too), serrations that not only mitigate horizontal movements but also vertical. If you look around charging handles, Geissele's is probably the only one with more than vertical serrations.
Geissele's latch serrations are probably overlooked by many, the first time I put my finger on it, I saw the simple solution nobody else had reached.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/schldfa3_zpsee1vb8ft.jpg.html)
This my current setup on my 6920, a LDFA and Geissele Super Charging Handle. Dig it.
I have multiple Raptors, BCM Mod 44's and a Geissele. All of them are good at what they do, and everyone is going to have a preference based on their particular criteria, etc..
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 00:32
I have the Raptor, Avalanche, Mod 44, Geissele and like them all.
I like and carry all of them in our store, and use them on my ARs. Raptor and Geissele feel better to me, most likely because of their large pivoting latches afford a huge contact area with the fingers.
On the Raptor, I have couple of minor gripes, but purely from a designer's standpoint. The larger right latch's purpose is lost on me, I understand the reason (to clear the forward assist) but in practice, it might as well be the same size as the small, left latch. As long as the FA has a rim, your knuckles or fingernails are likely to hit it. AXTS (now Radien) lets you order the Raptor with two large latches, but not two small latches :jester:
The skeletonized latches also bug me, it always has. In my old job, I wanted them to make a version with solid latches version, but I had left before that happened. I think Umbrella Corporation did do that. Many users like the looks of the hollowed out latches, but they seem to serve little purpose for aluminum levers, I can only surmise it's done for looks. This didn't start the annoying fad of skeletonizing everything, but it's an early example of it. At least it didn't hollow out surface area that comes in contact with the finger, like hollowed out levers and paddles.
Phil_alexanian
04-02-17, 04:29
MOD EDIT: No. Your first post, and you decide to shitpost...?
Next time, consider having something worth saying, vice just saying something because you can.
I have 5 different companies ambi charging handles.
The raptor came to be my favorite, by both not pinching my fingers or stabbing me in the chest.
I've got a raptor on my AR10, it took some grinding to work but nothing is standard on those... I ran into several issues building mine.
On my AR15s I use the BCM ambi's, they just work.
jerrysimons
04-02-17, 10:10
I like the raptor, I like the BCM Mod4 too but the latchs stick out too far. Looking forward to trying be Geissele. Roger brings up a great point and maybe that lip will mitigate gas a little more than others like it is said to. I remember Magpul MBUS Pro LR rear sight interferes with the lip on the Geissele CH when in the rear most slot of the upper.
From what I read, the raised half moon lip of the G charging handle hasn't done much to stop gas from escaping through the rear and hitting the shooter, and neither does the Raptor made for suppressors. If that's what Geissele had in mind, I think they would have addressed it effectively, so I have to conclude the lip isn't there to deflect gas by design.
The old PRI Gas Buster also didn't work well in that regard, in spite of its numerous vents and gas rerouting schemes.
titsonritz
04-02-17, 11:38
I think Umbrella Corporation did do that.
Reading your post I was going to mention that, you are correct, they did.
titsonritz
04-02-17, 11:46
From what I read, the raised half moon lip of the G charging handle hasn't done much to stop gas from escaping through the rear and hitting the shooter, and neither does the Raptor made for suppressors. If that's what Geissele had in mind, I think they would have addressed it effectively, so I have to conclude the lip isn't there to deflect gas by design.
I agree with that, yesterday I shot my Colt w/ a Geissele CH side by side my SIONICS and BCM with Raptors, no major difference in that respect.
I have Mod 3 and 4 BCM CHs and much prefer Geissele CH to them, although the BCMs are nice still.
As with all things in the age of the modern armchair commando, everyone has a perennial favorite and many folks have an emotional attachment with what they deem to be best.
I live in an area where you would expect to be able to go look at and purchase various firearm accessories. Cabela's is less than 10 minutes away but they are a complete joke for anything beyond overpriced camo to subsidize their oversized fish tank and display of stuffed animals. Gander Mountain and Field & Stream have followed suit and are out of touch with real "gun" folks.
Most of us are relegated to making blind internet purchases; something I personally abhor. I hate the order and wait game. Then when you aren't enamoured with a purchase it's a pain in the ass to send stuff back and wait to get your money credited back. I much prefer to make hands on purchase which often isn't possible in today's web based retail environment. I'll drive two hours to buy something rather than potentially mess around for 2 or 3 weeks with a mail order tryout.
I haven't purported that the Geissele is the be all to end all charging handle. I was simply making an observation based on my limited handling of each. Based on what I've read and seen in my online research, I was firmly in the Raptor camp. However, after getting to handle them both, my opinion changed. To me, the Geissele Super Charging Handle's looks we're indeed deceiving to me. I'm not trying to jam my opinion down everyone's throat like a lot of folks on all of these forums. I'm simply trying to share my observation in hopes that it could benefit someone else. I welcome all replies which contribute useful information.
If the truth be told, even though I've only been registered on here for eight months, I've read this forum for many years. I use this forum and many others to conduct pre-purchase research in order to try to avoid the three week buy, return, wait for credit debacle. These days, wading through the barrage of verbal diarrhea that some folks feel obligated to inflict on others does nothing but complicate that research process.
To the moderator, thank you for sparing all of us from shit post number 1.
BCM's quality is very good, and the price is hard to beat. I thought Raptors were expensive, Geissele's is even more so. If I'm on a budget, it'll be the Gunfighter ambi CH. The cost difference between all three is difficult to quantify and justify, in the end, go with what you're comfortable with, and know that you can't go wrong with any.
If there is one area I would have done differently with the Geissele, it would be the latch's pointy tip, I would have notched it so it wouldn't dig into the shooter's flesh when the rifle is slung. As it is, the tip is radiused but still pointy :moil:
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 12:45
I have Mod 3 and 4 BCM CHs and much prefer Geissele CH to them, although the BCMs are nice still.
Have you tried the BCM Mod44? (Ambi version) When I'm running my guns, between the four types of ambi ch that I own, I can hardly tell the difference in use with the only exception being the Avalanche which has the knurled cylindrical handles attached.
Where is everyone getting the BCM Mod 44 for 2/3 the cost of the others? I paid $80 shipped for the Geissele. BCM wanted $85 for the Mod 44 buying it direct and Brownell's wanted $80. Midway was out of stock
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 13:58
Where is everyone getting the BCM Mod 44 for 2/3 the cost of the others? I paid $80 shipped for the Geissele. BCM wanted $85 for the Mod 44 buying it direct and Brownell's wanted $80. Midway was out of stock
Here's one place. $67.99 (http://www.lapolicegear.com/bravo-company-556mm223-mod-gfh-556-mod-a44.html)
I've been buying from them for years - never a problem.
We have them in stock as well, for MAP of $68.35. You can email me for a free shipping code ;)
http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/BCMVltor-Gunfighter-Ambidextrous-Charging-Handle-556mm_p_47.html
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 14:39
We have them in stock as well, for MAP of $68.35. You can email me for a free shipping code ;)
http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/BCMVltor-Gunfighter-Ambidextrous-Charging-Handle-556mm_p_47.html
Great price, free shipping and supporting an M4C brother. It doesn't get much better than that. :)
Have you tried the BCM Mod44? (Ambi version) When I'm running my guns, between the four types of ambi ch that I own, I can hardly tell the difference in use with the only exception being the Avalanche which has the knurled cylindrical handles attached.
No I haven't - honestly the Mod 4 has been known to pinch my ungloved fingers (normal size, nothing out of the ordinary) when using it. I find the $20 extra on the Geissele (if that much) to be a no brainer. I've bought them all on sale, usually 20-25% off so the price difference is negligible. I think $75 or $80 for each one I bought.
titsonritz
04-02-17, 15:39
No I haven't - honestly the Mod 4 has been known to pinch my ungloved fingers (normal size, nothing out of the ordinary) when using it. I find the $20 extra on the Geissele (if that much) to be a no brainer. I've bought them all on sale, usually 20-25% off so the price difference is negligible. I think $75 or $80 for each one I bought.
Exactly, same here. I've had a couple Mod 4 and can't see a 44 with my Raptors and Geissele (which I got at 30% off from PA during Black Friday). The BCM is quality without question, just I don't think it is on the same level as the other two, hence the price difference which can be minimized via smart, patient shopping.
The only reason I purchased my Geissele was due to the Primary Arms sale which made it like 71.00 (I saw some other items I needed so free shipping was in order). I had wanted to try it and based on some stuff I read and experience with other Geissele items it was a no brainer.
Exactly, same here. I've had a couple Mod 4 and can't see a 44 with my Raptors and Geissele (which I got at 30% off from PA during Black Friday). The BCM is quality without question, just I don't think it is on the same level as the other two, hence the price difference which can be minimized via smart, patient shopping.
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 17:08
No I haven't - honestly the Mod 4 has been known to pinch my ungloved fingers (normal size, nothing out of the ordinary) when using it. I find the $20 extra on the Geissele (if that much) to be a no brainer. I've bought them all on sale, usually 20-25% off so the price difference is negligible. I think $75 or $80 for each one I bought.
I was the same - that large latch dug into me when my rifle is slung but for some reason the Mod 44 doesn't seem to bother me. But like I said, in practical use (gloved hands mostly), I hardly can tell any difference between the Mod 44, Raptor and Geissele.
It was a joke man, relax.
If you are looking to joke, try arfcom, it has more than its fair share of clowns. If you are looking for actual firearm information, you are in the right place. It sounds like you are here to troll, but on the off chance you aren't, welcome to the board.
Regarding the various charging handles, there really are only 2 upgrades which are realistic and IMHO will hold the test of time. That would be the standard middle sized BCM and the Raptor. The BCM is so good there really isn't a reason not to outfit every fighting gun with them. The Raptor is the best of the ambi handles, and I don't say that with any malice or slight towards any of the others out there, the Raptor simply nailed the design early on, and knocked it out of the park. Each and every ambi which has come out afterwards has failed to attain the same level of acceptance within the firearm community.
Geissele may be able to reach the acceptance which the Raptor has, but it is starting out behind the curve. Radian (formerly AXTS) has the ability to modify their design with extended latches, or whatever else and will retain the acceptance it has established over the years. I own all of the above, and am not a lefty in general shooting. I have trained for a long time to use either hand, or operate the weapon single handed (or single off hand) as needed. Everyone will have a personal preference, the above is simply mine based on my own training and uses, training others, and work/ knowledge within the industry.
elephantrider
04-02-17, 18:01
Regarding the various charging handles, there really are only 2 upgrades which are realistic and IMHO will hold the test of time. That would be the standard middle sized BCM and the Raptor. The BCM is so good there really isn't a reason not to outfit every fighting gun with them. The Raptor is the best of the ambi handles, and I don't say that with any malice or slight towards any of the others out there, the Raptor simply nailed the design early on, and knocked it out of the park. Each and every ambi which has come out afterwards has failed to attain the same level of acceptance within the firearm community.
Geissele may be able to reach the acceptance which the Raptor has, but it is starting out behind the curve. Radian (formerly AXTS) has the ability to modify their design with extended latches, or whatever else and will retain the acceptance it has established over the years. I own all of the above, and am not a lefty in general shooting. I have trained for a long time to use either hand, or operate the weapon single handed (or single off hand) as needed. Everyone will have a personal preference, the above is simply mine based on my own training and uses, training others, and work/ knowledge within the industry.
Stick, are you implying that Raptor has a design/function advantage over the Geissele? Or, are you just stating that they have a marketplace advantage by virtue of being first by a good margin, and thus having cemented itself early, and having more users and use hours under it's belt? Serious question, not meant to be bait.
I have a bunch of Raptors, and that is my standard now because it is possibly/probably the most durable available. I previously used he BCM, and the Raptor is more user friendly for me. I have not handled the Geissele, so I have no basis for comparison with it, thus my question. Does the Raptor have some durability advantage over the Geissele because of it's design, or about equal and it just comes down to an ergonomic preference?
My opinion only.
If any can mount a serious challenge to the Raptor, it's the Geissele's Super Charging Handle. The Raptor has been out longer and has a well deserved large market share, and will most likely retain it for a long time, but Geissele's reputation and reach can't be underestimated.
For a long time my old company's selector was the go to for ambi selectors, things have changed somewhat since. When I was still there, the only thing that worried me a great deal was whether Bill would come out with an ambi selector, they'd be a very qualified and serious contender for any segment of the market they want to get into, and transition from the new guy to the standard to judge by in a short period. I'm only glad Bill doesn't do anything my company does lol.
titsonritz
04-02-17, 18:30
It is nice having all these "can't loose" options, we are in the golden age of ARs.
I have BCM Mod.4's, Mod. 44's and Geissele charging handles. I guess I'm not picky because they all work perfectly for me. Since functionally they are all equal in my eyes I will say I prefer the Geissele, just because. I see his products as engineering art. I will say I've never understood the people who get pinched by the BCM's. This has never happened, even when I intentionally try. Where exactly are people getting pinched?
When palm blading the BCM, it can pinch the meat of your palm below your pinky. Not an issue if you use index finger.
556BlackRifle
04-02-17, 19:42
When palm blading the BCM, it can pinch the meat of your palm below your pinky. Not an issue if you use index finger.
I prolly don't have that issue because I'm usually gloved when I run them hard and make extensive use of the bolt catch.
When palm blading the BCM, it can pinch the meat of your palm below your pinky. Not an issue if you use index finger.
Hah! So you say!
I haven't been pinched by any of my Gunfighters CHs in awhile, but I got bit bad enough this weekend to make up for it. I am now looking at alternatives and the G Super looks looks like it's far less likely to pinch. Gonna check out the Raptor, too
titsonritz
04-02-17, 20:25
When palm blading the BCM, it can pinch the meat of your palm below your pinky. Not an issue if you use index finger.
I've had my index finger bit.
The Raptor and Geissele Supper Charging Handle will not pinch. I've use the Raptor prototype for years, and the Geissele SCH since it came out, I've never been pinched.
Someday, this prototype might be worth something ;)
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/Untitled2jpg.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/Untitled2jpg.jpg.html)
Stick, are you implying that Raptor has a design/function advantage over the Geissele? Or, are you just stating that they have a marketplace advantage by virtue of being first by a good margin, and thus having cemented itself early, and having more users and use hours under it's belt? Serious question, not meant to be bait.
I have a bunch of Raptors, and that is my standard now because it is possibly/probably the most durable available. I previously used he BCM, and the Raptor is more user friendly for me. I have not handled the Geissele, so I have no basis for comparison with it, thus my question. Does the Raptor have some durability advantage over the Geissele because of it's design, or about equal and it just comes down to an ergonomic preference?
I'm not implying either the Raptor or Geissele is better than the other. What I will state is that the Raptor came out first, and there really wasn't anything like it when it did. I won't say an ambi CH had never been done, but it had never been done in a manner that caught on and was regarded as so highly functional. Another weapon manufacturer friend of mine commented to me once that he had a design for an ambi CH, but the reason he never produced it was because the Raptor was too perfect, and that anything else that came along was simply going to be sluffed off, or just a copy. That is pretty high praise, even though it was just the two of us discussing random things.
Taking the above into account, Radian (AXTS) has more than just a foothold in the market, it has a solid foundation already laid for it. A foundation they have built on to the point that their weapons and other pieces (which are GTG), sit back in the shadows. If you ask an AR guy who Radian is, they are likely to not know. Ask them what the Raptor is, and they have a much better chance of getting it right.
More than just functionality, the Raptor has a "good" look to it. Good enough that it has been featured in various video games (like Call Of Duty).
What the Geissele has going for it is that it is new. New, and that Geissele has a very good reputation for making solid products, and the only people who really throw out a curve ball at them are typically shills for another company, or larue himself. In addition, Bill Geissele has a reputation as an absolutely fantastic, genuine guy. Bill doesn't have to send cases of product out to people to get endorsements or contracts, thankfully we can leave the name calling and threats over on another board where it belongs. I feel bad for having to state the above, but I want to get it out before any of the shills jump in, and yes, there are some over here as well.
Is having a new product good enough to take a large chunk out of the market which I think the Raptor dominates? I don't think it is, especially when you figure the Raptor is OEM (as is the BCM) with multiple firearm companies. However, I do think they will sell well, just like their mounts, albeit to a slightly different end user / audience. Hopefully that makes some sense. Like I said, I'm not disparaging any of the companies, but I do think we see a different user set, and an established champ wearing the belt. Just my thoughts an opinion on it.
ETA- Lastly, due to the copyright held by another company, I don't think we are going to see any revolutions in CH aside from being ambi. Gas diversion is pretty much locked up by someone else as it has been explained to me.
jackblack73
04-02-17, 21:23
When palm blading the BCM, it can pinch the meat of your palm below your pinky. Not an issue if you use index finger.
I don't palm blade but I've had my index finger pinched. I greatly prefer the Raptor in every way.
It is nice having all these "can't loose" options, we are in the golden age of ARs.
Very much so. The things which are being upgraded or updated are minor in the AR platform. Lots of options still coming out, but MLOK/ Keymod or other totally new concepts aren't exactly coming out every day, and if we look at the heart of the system being the BCG/ bolt, nothing really new and catching on in quite awhile.
Reading some of these threads I realize I must be come kind of Luddite since I don't have a single damn ambi item on any of my ARs. Unless one wishes to consider my brief flirtation with a B.A.D. lever to be ambi.
The first "extended" CH I had was actually an OEM one that got the Badger Tact latch installed on. Anyone remember those things? I think they are being considered retro by some nowadays. Honestly surprised I didn't break the CH with that since I took most of the finish off the right and top sides of the thing in using it and could often feel the handle torquing when running it briskly. I actually wouldn't have been surprised if I had managed to twist the damn thing like a pig tail. My next upgrade was a BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 after handling a friend's Mod 4. The 4 I felt at the time was too small and got the biggest one BCM had. No real complaints, though I have since gotten wiser and gone to the mod 4s seeing as they work just as well without protruding as much and again have not had any issues with them in years. The Mod 3s are running on other rifles where hanging out further isn't as big an issue, or even desirable.
Have messed with some of the other ones here and there but haven't come across any others that have me reaching for my wallet to replace my BCMs as of yet, though with the desire to finally enter the 21st century and build an Ambi rifle for no other reason than I can, I am curious toward the details in this thread. As was mentioned though, blind ordering offline kind of sucks. Have had some really pleasant surprises doing that, the BCM Mod 3 pistol grip for example. But, even handling some things for a short time doesn't mean that they will be great for the applications you want. I learned this with another BCM product, their Mod 1 pistol grips. Handled on on a rifle in a store, felt great for the ten seconds I played with and ended up ordering on a few weeks later. Installed it on my rifle and after playing with it on an off for a couple weeks and a couple range sessions I pulled it off and tossed it in the parts bin. I just didn't fit my hand as well as I wanted it to even if the angle was great. The Mod 3 fixed this for me at nearly half the price.
I've been using the BCM charging handles since they came out and never had a problem with one. I bought one Geissele to try and now all of my guns are outfitted with them. I never tried the Raptor but I always wanted to. There isn't much of anything Geissele puts out that I don't like so I had to give their charging handle a try.
As was mentioned though, blind ordering offline kind of sucks. Have had some really pleasant surprises doing that, the BCM Mod 3 pistol grip for example. But, even handling some things for a short time doesn't mean that they will be great for the applications you want. I learned this with another BCM product, their Mod 1 pistol grips. Handled on on a rifle in a store, felt great for the ten seconds I played with and ended up ordering on a few weeks later. Installed it on my rifle and after playing with it on an off for a couple weeks and a couple range sessions I pulled it off and tossed it in the parts bin. I just didn't fit my hand as well as I wanted it to even if the angle was great. The Mod 3 fixed this for me at nearly half the price.
I'm right there with you on grips which is why
I've been so slow to bite the bullet on an ambi charging handle. I've tried eight different pistol grips including a few BCM variants. I'm running the BCM Mod 2 now (with the biggest back strap and no duck bill).
Call me anal but almost everything I buy for the AR platform just seems like it could be thought out a little better. Why can't anyone make a grip that moves your hand back far enough for proper finger placement on the trigger? The BCM Mod 2 is the best I've found regarding this issue, especially after being stippled which fattens it a bit more.
As stated in my initial post, I was on board with the looks of the Raptor, as seen in pictures. However, the edges of the jimping on one I handled at Cabela's felt pretty sharp, and I have pretty rough hands. Melt those edges, put a lip on it like the BCM, make both latch levers the same size and it would be perfect. I understand the theory behind the asymmetrical latch levers but the one I looked at, it just didn't seem like it would provide a real benefit. Such has been stated in the thread by someone who runs the Raptor.
Again, the Geissel feels great in the hand but those points look like a boat anchor. Flattening the points a bit would make it look a lot more appealing. I have the utmost appreciation for Bill and his products but mechanical engineering doesn't usually place a high priority on asthetics. Fortunately, Bill's engineering sells itself. I love the Geissele SD-C trigger I got from Grant but I had I not walked in and physically had it in my hand, I probably still wouldn't have ordered one and I have multiple Geissele triggers. The same with the Geissele charging handle; had I not been in a place to physically handle it, I never would have ordered something that to me looked like I could tie a line on it and troll for tuna or use as a grappling hook.
Since we've picked up some more followers that are in the same boat and looking for information, if anyone has any experience with the Badger Ordinance Gen 3 or the Armageddon Tactical charging handles, please share, as they both look to be decent alternatives.
From what I read, the raised half moon lip of the G charging handle hasn't done much to stop gas from escaping through the rear and hitting the shooter, and neither does the Raptor made for suppressors. If that's what Geissele had in mind, I think they would have addressed it effectively, so I have to conclude the lip isn't there to deflect gas by design.
I got a couple of the G handles hoping it would help with the gas to the face, but nope. I still prefer how it feels with gloved hands over the Raptor. I'm more than happy with both and still can't believe I'm OK with spending that kind of coin on a charging handle.
elephantrider
04-03-17, 21:53
I'm right there with you on grips which is why
I've been so slow to bite the bullet on an ambi charging handle. I've tried eight different pistol grips including a few BCM variants. I'm running the BCM Mod 2 now (with the biggest back strap and no duck bill).
Call me anal but almost everything I buy for the AR platform just seems like it could be thought out a little better. Why can't anyone make a grip that moves your hand back far enough for proper finger placement on the trigger? The BCM Mod 2 is the best I've found regarding this issue, especially after being stippled which fattens it a bit more.
As stated in my initial post, I was on board with the looks of the Raptor, as seen in pictures. However, the edges of the jimping on one I handled at Cabela's felt pretty sharp, and I have pretty rough hands. Melt those edges, put a lip on it like the BCM, make both latch levers the same size and it would be perfect. I understand the theory behind the asymmetrical latch levers but the one I looked at, it just didn't seem like it would provide a real benefit. Such has been stated in the thread by someone who runs the Raptor.
Again, the Geissel feels great in the hand but those points look like a boat anchor. Flattening the points a bit would make it look a lot more appealing. I have the utmost appreciation for Bill and his products but mechanical engineering doesn't usually place a high priority on asthetics. Fortunately, Bill's engineering sells itself. I love the Geissele SD-C trigger I got from Grant but I had I not walked in and physically had it in my hand, I probably still wouldn't have ordered one and I have multiple Geissele triggers. The same with the Geissele charging handle; had I not been in a place to physically handle it, I never would have ordered something that to me looked like I could tie a line on it and troll for tuna or use as a grappling hook.
Since we've picked up some more followers that are in the same boat and looking for information, if anyone has any experience with the Badger Ordinance Gen 3 or the Armageddon Tactical charging handles, please share, as they both look to be decent alternatives.
Grips, trigger finger placement? That is subjective and depends on the individual. No one grip is going to be the perfect for everybody. Different hand, finger sizes, different grip preferences, different trigger pulling preferences.
Raptor sharp? I have baby soft hands and find nothing particularly sharp on the half dozen or so that I own.
I have heard others complain about the Giessele 'boat anchor' points. Both an aesthetic complaint, or complaint about them poking into one's body, but not a widespread complaint.
I'm a lefty so ambi on all of my rifles. I've tried a lot, I've got a Geissele and the rest are AXTS. Both are good to go.
I just prefer the Raptor.
Raptor sharp? I have baby soft hands and find nothing particularly sharp on the half dozen or so that I own.
I have heard others complain about the Giessele 'boat anchor' points. Both an aesthetic complaint, or complaint about them poking into one's body, but not a widespread complaint.
Like I said, I've handled one Raptor and one Geissele. Both were on Noveske factory built Chainsaw rifles in Cabela's gun library. This particular Raptor was indeed sharp. Maybe it was a Chainsaw piece too? I've driven to every shop I know of within three hours of my house and none of them carry either. I was in one shop over two hours away last fall; they had Raptors. I made the drive again, about three weeks ago to get a Raptor; they stopped carrying them. Go figure.
Regarding the Geissele boat anchor points being an aesthetic complaint, that was exactly my point, which was made in the thread title. It looked funny but after handling the two, I ordered a Geissele. However, had i not been able to check it out hands on, I would have ordered the Raptor.
elephantrider
04-03-17, 23:39
Like I said, I've handled one Raptor and one Geissele. Both were on Noveske factory built Chainsaw rifles in Cabela's gun library. This particular Raptor was indeed sharp. Maybe it was a Chainsaw piece too? I've driven to every shop I know of within three hours of my house and none of them carry either. I was in one shop over two hours away last fall; they had Raptors. I made the drive again, about three weeks ago to get a Raptor; they stopped carrying them. Go figure.
Regarding the Geissele boat anchor points being an aesthetic complaint, that was exactly my point, which was made in the thread title. It looked funny but after handling the two, I ordered a Geissele. However, had i not been able to check it out hands on, I would have ordered the Raptor.
huh, weird. Mine all have a nice 45 bevel on the edges. I am a 'form follows function' type person, so if it works well, it looks good to me.
Tons of options, choose what you prefer and move on. I'll keep BCMs on 3 ARs and Geisseles on the other 2.
Defaultmp3
04-06-17, 22:04
Well, for those of y'all that don't like how pointy the SCH is, the new ACH might be a bit better, if only because the latches are smaller, so less poking: https://geissele.com/ranger-charging-handle.html
Well, for those of y'all that don't like how pointy the SCH is, the new ACH might be a bit better, if only because the latches are smaller, so less poking: https://geissele.com/ranger-charging-handle.html
F me Geiselle keeps sucking my wallet dry. That's exactly what I want for a charging handle.
My Brownell's order will be here tomorrow with a Super Charging Handle in the box; go figure!
This is going to cost another $100:rolleyes:
GallagherRayS
04-07-17, 02:19
I got in on the Primary Arms sale with a Geissele Rail, charging handle, barrel, and upper receiver for $400. Its the only reason I have that handle as I always thought they looked funny, like they would be uncomfortable, but once I got my hands on that CH its ergonomics were just so nice, the operation has such a smooth feel compared to my raptors. Which by the way, I got a Raptor when it was still AXTS and one after they changed to Radian and the Radian branded raptor feels way smoother than the AXTS. Also have a BCM mod3 and mod44, both are good but I personally like the feel of the Raptor more than the BCM, and now I like the feel of the Geissele most.
However, as others have said all 3 are great companies and you cant go wrong getting any of them.
MeanCarbine
04-07-17, 06:17
Well, for those of y'all that don't like how pointy the SCH is, the new ACH might be a bit better, if only because the latches are smaller, so less poking: https://geissele.com/ranger-charging-handle.html
Damn. Thanks for posting this.
Who would have thought going smaller was the key, in a world where "enhanced" simply means bigger? Bill is onto something. I always figured the light weight mafia got it wrong. Short, handy and sacrificing nothing, that's getting it right.
I bought the original Geissele SCH for an SPR build and was surprised at just how much I like their charging handle. The large size was the only thing I could see as maybe being an issue, but the ACH looks to be perfect. I'll have to pick one up for one of my current rifles.
I do have a few BCM Mod 44's though as well as a Mod 3 and have no intention of swapping them out. They still work for their intended purpose. It's nice having more than one option for quality parts, for sure.
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I got in on the Primary Arms sale with a Geissele Rail, charging handle, barrel, and upper receiver for $400. Its the only reason I have that handle as I always thought they looked funny, like they would be uncomfortable, but once I got my hands on that CH its ergonomics were just so nice, the operation has such a smooth feel compared to my raptors. Which by the way, I got a Raptor when it was still AXTS and one after they changed to Radian and the Radian branded raptor feels way smoother than the AXTS. Also have a BCM mod3 and mod44, both are good but I personally like the feel of the Raptor more than the BCM, and now I like the feel of the Geissele most.
Thank you!!!!!!!!
This is EXACTLY the point I was making when I started this thread.
I got home from work tonight and got the Brownell's bag out of the mailbox. The SCH is on my SR-15 and I like it, except for that Airborne Charging Handle on Geissele's website. I don't know if I'm going to make it through the night without ordering the ACH. I'd do a little surgery on the SCH if there was an easy way to get the aluminum refinished in hard coat.
What to do???
I was going to order a Raptor for my SR-15 Mod 2 this evening. I stopped by Cabela's on the way home. They had a couple Noveskes in the Gun Library; one had the Raptor the other had the Geissele. I've been ogling both online for a couple months. Visually, the Raptor looks more appealing to me. The Geissele looks "pointy" but whenever I have the rifle slung across my chest, I'm wearing body armor, so that's a non issue for me.
After handling both, I was completely dissuaded from ordering the Raptor. The Geissele was exponentially more comfortable to manipulate. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the stock KAC charging handle, but I have to do ambidextrous malfunction clearance drills and shoot left-handed when training/ qualifying.
Obviously, I won't be able to evaluate actual performance until I have one in my gun but if you're on the fence and can't physically handle both prior to purchase, the Geissele feels a lot better.
What organization requires you to qualify with your non dominant hand? I have never heard of such a thing.
GallagherRayS
04-08-17, 01:42
What organization requires you to qualify with your non dominant hand? I have never heard of such a thing.
I have to in Nuclear Security, both pistol and rifle quals have support side function and shooting.
City Police Department.
I actually work for the Fire Department (full-time investigator/LEO). We're issued weapons by the Police Department, we train with and we qualify with the police. We have to shoot non-dominant with sidearm and patrol carbine. Rifle qualification includes prone, offhand and kneeling behind cover (both strong and weak side) and failure to stop while advancing toward target until empty then transition to sidearm. Everything is timed and the rifle qualification is all done going uphill.
The PD did away with shotguns as soon as I bought my own Benelli M2 Tactical. We just do a 5 round qualification with less lethal munitions now. When we were still qualifying with slugs, we had to shoot one handed, from both sides. The guys who liked the collapsible stocks on the 870s, didn't like them after shooting slugs with one hand.
I still prefer the Badger G3 to anything I've tried, which is everything but the KAC ambi, and the Geissele. The BCM ambi sucked (pinchy, more effort, etc) and the raptor similarly failed to impress. The Griffin was darn nice. The G3 is just my favorite so far.
I still prefer the Badger G3 to anything I've tried, which is everything but the KAC ambi, and the Geissele. The BCM ambi sucked (pinchy, more effort, etc) and the raptor similarly failed to impress. The Griffin was darn nice. The G3 is just my favorite so far.
I'm a huge BCM fanboy, but it does pinch every now and then and the ACH looks perfect. They need to hurry up and send it over to Brownells.
We got our ACHs last week, and I replaced my previous favorite charging handle (Super Charging Handle) with it, ACH is now my favorite ;)
ACH isn't much smaller than the SCH.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/IMG_2434_zpso8fpccx1.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/IMG_2434_zpso8fpccx1.jpg.html)
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/CHcomp1_zpsszfus1gc.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/CHcomp1_zpsszfus1gc.jpg.html)
Sorry about the dust, I only clean the inside of my test bed AR, and this one has seen continuous use since 2004.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/IMG_2441_zpsbyajbvej.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/IMG_2441_zpsbyajbvej.jpg.html)
With the shorter latch, I'm glad the rimless forward assist (LDFA) was developed, it seems to be the prefect companion for the ACH. Both are reduced in size (but not function) and streamlined. ACH's latch size reduction for less snag, LDFA's deletion of the traditional rim for the same reason (so it won't catch the user's fingernail or knuckle).
ETA, I think your top photo is mislabeled, I figured out the rest of my issues. ;)
Indeed it was, thank you, I fixed it :laugh:
My question is:
Are you mostly running the Charging Handles for malfunctions? Or, do you run it to load/reload the platform?
The only time I have ever used the CH is for press checks and malfunctions.
I'm a lefty BTW.
My question is:
Are you mostly running the Charging Handles for malfunctions? Or, do you run it to load/reload the platform?
The only time I have ever used the CH is for press checks and malfunctions.
I'm a lefty BTW.
Same as you, so it doesn't get used often. I'm kind of a perfectionist though so if I don't like something, I'm going to replace it sooner rather than later.
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Are you talking about the CH or FA?
I am talking about the Charging Handle. The Forward assist.... I don't think I've ever used. Maybe a tap here or there after a press check, but I have had Forward Assists CAUSE more issues than they've solved.
Are you talking about the CH or FA?
I am talking about the Charging Handle. The Forward assist.... I don't think I've ever used. Maybe a tap here or there after a press check, but I have had Forward Assists CAUSE more issues than they've solved.
How did a forward assist cause an issue?
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MeanCarbine
05-21-17, 16:57
The SCH is great but I'm liking the more subtle ACH.
How did a forward assist cause an issue?
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The Pawl broke and jammed the carrier in the upper. It was a catastrophic failure. Weapon was broke hard. Had to cut the end of the upper in half to relieve the pressure. I was running a BCM gunfighter CH but no matter what CH I would've been running, nothing I had on the range was gonna fix that issue.
The Pawl broke and jammed the carrier in the upper. It was a catastrophic failure. Weapon was broke hard. Had to cut the end of the upper in half to relieve the pressure. I was running a BCM gunfighter CH but no matter what CH I would've been running, nothing I had on the range was gonna fix that issue.
Was it a BCM upper?
It was a Colt Upper. I can't seem to find the pics. It happened a few years ago now.
I just installed the sch on my 6.8 build and i really like how it feels. Granted the build is not finshed, but i have cycled the bolt quite a bit.
I've used it on one of my Noveske uppers (I have one of the first Gen 3's that came with Raptors, a second lower I received later on had the SCH) and like the feel of it more than others I've tried. Not a dig against the Raptor or Gunfighter, I won't be replacing them anytime soon, but for new purchases I would be more likely than not grab a Geissele. I have an Airborne version on the way and will report when I get some rounds downrange.
From my experience, Geissele thinks everything out very well. They don't make something just for the sake of it. Similarly, Roger from Forward Control is the same way. Had a long chat with him via email last week.
I have a couple Raptors but I prefer the $25 colt CH.
Nothing wrong with factory charging handles, we were all stuck with it until something better came along. The worst thing that happened to charging handles is these oversized latches, in my opinion. The long lever puts out more torque on the same charging handle body that was designed to be used with a short latch/lever.
When AXTS came out with the Raptor where the latch is the handle, it solved that problem.
I not a fan of the extended latch. My father wanted one when I was helping him pick parts. I'd never used one until his came in. Using it with a sling isn't terrible but I definitely would spend for a raptor over the extended ones. The addition forces to the sides while using them I could see becoming a problem but he doesn't shoot enough to break anything.
I was made quite painfully aware there are wrong ways to charge an ambi handle when a fair bit of my middle finger nail peeled back on a few occasions. After that I started using the handle essentially like a standard one. Now I wonder what I could have done with the extra $150. That could cover a geissele 2 stage.
The ones I feel for with the standard handle are the lefties. Actually the whole gun seems pretty tough for them to use.
titsonritz
05-25-17, 13:02
The ones I feel for with the standard handle are the lefties. Actually the whole gun seems pretty tough for them to use.
It's not so bad, just a different manual of arms rather than an actual mirror of the right side like it is with the latest ambi-parts.
LDFA was created for this reason ;) I wouldn't characterize it as the wrong way, it's a matter of the FA not being designed with the ambidextrous charging handle in mind. If you use the charging handle with two fingers, or if you're a lefty, and use the index finger to hook the right latch, the FA's rim is in the direct path. One would have to consciously hold the latch to avoid the rim.
When the round FA was introduced, ambi charging handles didn't exist. It's common enough that a well thought new part makes another existing part hard to use, or comes in conflict with it.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/LDFA%205_zpsyyz2xocx.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/LDFA%205_zpsyyz2xocx.jpg.html)
I was made quite painfully aware there are wrong ways to charge an ambi handle when a fair bit of my middle finger nail peeled back on a few occasions
The ones I feel for with the standard handle are the lefties. Actually the whole gun seems pretty tough for them to use.
Very interesting thread, it's very helpful to hear such a wide variety of opinions. We (Radian) have a number of new Raptor variants in development as we speak, some of which a few of you in this thread will appreciate. We should begin rolling them out in about 3-4 weeks, staring with the SIG MPX.
I'm a huge BCM fanboy, but it does pinch every now and then and the ACH looks perfect. They need to hurry up and send it over to Brownells.
ACH are on sale direct from Geissele for $71.20 shipped. Just picked up one in black as my one and only Memorial Day Sale purchase. I think it'll go well my 11.5 SBR that I shoot suppressed a lot and I'll move the SCH on that over to another AR that previously had a BCM on it. I think I'll need to start selling off the BCMs now.
https://geissele.com/airborne-charging-handle.html
ACH are on sale direct from Geissele for $71.20 shipped. Just picked up one in black as my one and only Memorial Day Sale purchase. I think it'll go well my 11.5 SBR that I shoot suppressed a lot and I'll move the SCH on that over to another AR that previously had a BCM on it. I think I'll need to start selling off the BCMs now.
https://geissele.com/airborne-charging-handle.html
Holy shit they must have added more. This morning they were all sold out. Thank you.
ACH are on sale direct from Geissele for $71.20 shipped. Just picked up one in black as my one and only Memorial Day Sale purchase. I think it'll go well my 11.5 SBR that I shoot suppressed a lot and I'll move the SCH on that over to another AR that previously had a BCM on it. I think I'll need to start selling off the BCMs now.
https://geissele.com/airborne-charging-handle.html
Nice, reading through this thread I was thinking of trying the ACH. I'm a big fan of my AXTS Raptor and ordered my BCM with their ambi, but it still needs to get broken in. The BCM doesn't release as smoothly as my raptor does.
Holy shit they must have added more. This morning they were all sold out. Thank you.
You're welcome - I saw the same thing this morning, sold out but decided to check again this afternoon and bam, they had refilled the availability, apparently.
EzGoingKev
06-01-17, 15:54
I am just curious, besides the name what does Geissele's charging handle offer that Badger Ordnance's does not?
http://www.badgerordnance.com/m16-m14-ar-15/gen-3-ambi-charging-handle-5-56-mm-based-rifles.html
methical20
06-01-17, 16:38
I am just curious, besides the name what does Geissele's charging handle offer that Badger Ordnance's does not?
http://www.badgerordnance.com/m16-m14-ar-15/gen-3-ambi-charging-handle-5-56-mm-based-rifles.html
That same question could be posed the other way around. I think that it's fair to say that there are a lot of solid options on the market right now, and for that we are very fortunate. Pick whichever one you prefer. They're both great products.
I like the ACH's smaller latches, and its waffle like serrations that provide horizontal, and vertical traction.
It has been a minute since I have been active on here. I picked up the Airborne handle in tan for my SPR build during Geissele's memorial day sale. Appreciate the input here.
It has been a minute since I have been active on here. I picked up the Airborne handle in tan for my SPR build during Geissele's memorial day sale. Appreciate the input here.
How's the action feel, have you installed it to see how it feels in another rifle yet? I'm eyeing the same one for my SBR build, debating it of going with another Raptor.
How's the action feel, have you installed it to see how it feels in another rifle yet? I'm eyeing the same one for my SBR build, debating it of going with another Raptor.
It is still in the mail unfortunately haha.
I got my ACH yesterday. Wow this thing is nice. I'm going to have to replace all my CHs now.
hotrodder636
06-04-17, 12:15
I keep BCM medium latch CHs on the majority of my rifles, specifically those ones with scopes.
I have a Raptor on my "hard use/HD" KAC Mod 0 which I like a lot.
I have looked at the Geiselle but, personally I don't like the looks and the fact that the Raptor works and does what it was designed for keeps me with my Raptor. I have ordered a couple more for my Colts that only use RDS.
My ACH came in today. I like it; large contact area for a solid and positive grip feels comfortable. I wouldn't say it is vastly superior to the gunfighter, but it is definitely on par and high quality. I also like the tan color.
http://i.imgur.com/UUJMQhm.jpg
I have a BCM 44 ambi charging handle and I really like it.
That said I just completed a SBR build and it's a twin to another carbine with a 16" barrel. At the time when I was ordering the charging handle no one had the BCM 44 in stock that I was ordering from so I decided to give it ( the Geisselle SCH ) a try.
After I tried it I really liked it and order another for the 16" carbine as I want them to be as close to each other as possible in looks and fuction.
I moved the BCM gunfighter charging handle over to another carbine.
I like both and so far both has served me well.
As a plus to me the Geisselle SCH in dessert dirt fit the color of my builds and I'm happy with the looks along with the fuction and quality of the product.
I still like the BCM gunfighter charging handle and other builds will probably have one or the other depending on in stock status and prices.
556BlackRifle
06-06-17, 10:46
I have a BCM 44 ambi charging handle and I really like it.
That said I just completed a SBR build and it's a twin to another carbine with a 16" barrel. At the time when I was ordering the charging handle no one had the BCM 44 in stock that I was ordering from so I decided to give it ( the Geisselle SCH ) a try.
After I tried it I really liked it and order another for the 16" carbine as I want them to be as close to each other as possible in looks and fuction.
I moved the BCM gunfighter charging handle over to another carbine.
I like both and so far both has served me well.
As a plus to me the Geisselle SCH in dessert dirt fit the color of my builds and I'm happy with the looks along with the fuction and quality of the product.
I still like the BCM gunfighter charging handle and other builds will probably have one or the other depending on in stock status and prices.
That's pretty much the way I feel. My last three CH purchases have been Geissele.
Pappabear just got a geissle. I don't like ambi ChS, but we'll play with this for sure.
I just grabbed another one and they are pretty nice.
Pappabear just got a geissle. I don't like ambi ChS, but we'll play with this for sure.
Sorry to resurrect this thread but, in reviewing it, I failed to find an objective assessment/comparison of these charging handles for suppressed use. For reference my interest is minimizing blowback on a BCM 12.5 with Surefire RC 5.56 suppressor. I am currently using the BCM charging handle and am experiencing a mild to moderate amount of blowback with federal xm193. It’s not intolerable, just wondering if there is a way to minimize it further.
Thanks.
I use Geissele SCH / ACHs on my ARs.
Using both a 14.5" Noveske Pinned and 11.5 BCM with AAC 762SDN6 and SiCo SAKER-K, I get zero blowback.
Zlich, nada, nothing using M193, M855, SOST, and others.
nightchief
07-25-18, 19:13
I can't echo Rhino's opinion about not getting any gas blow back, however, I get much less using the Geissele Airborne vs the Raptor. This is with an 11.5" RGP barrel and Surefire can.
NC
Sorry to resurrect this thread but, in reviewing it, I failed to find an objective assessment/comparison of these charging handles for suppressed use. For reference my interest is minimizing blowback on a BCM 12.5 with Surefire RC 5.56 suppressor. I am currently using the BCM charging handle and am experiencing a mild to moderate amount of blowback with federal xm193. It’s not intolerable, just wondering if there is a way to minimize it further.
Thanks.
Have you tried the RTV trick? I use it on all my AR’s.
I have not tried that but I did read about it and am considering it. Seems like the most cost effective way to get a good result.
Stranger45
07-28-18, 07:22
From what I read, the raised half moon lip of the G charging handle hasn't done much to stop gas from escaping through the rear and hitting the shooter, and neither does the Raptor made for suppressors. If that's what Geissele had in mind, I think they would have addressed it effectively, so I have to conclude the lip isn't there to deflect gas by design.
The old PRI Gas Buster also didn't work well in that regard, in spite of its numerous vents and gas rerouting schemes.
In your opinion which one works best to stop gas from escaping?
Anyone running the ACH on a HK416? if so results?
pointblank4445
06-30-19, 08:26
Anyone running the ACH on a HK416? if so results?
Yep...it works fine.
Yep...it works fine.
Thanks, Cheers
I use an ACH on an AR9, obviously a blowback gun.
I’ve had no problems with “gas face”.
Picked up a couple of the ACH's for my 416's, overall fit and finish is excellent, so far so good.
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