View Full Version : "The Alternative" non lethal
Not that new, but new to me. Ever see this thing? A "non lethal" on the end of a duty gun, what could possibly go wrong? :blink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5vUXdwABs
This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.
In the Lord of War, in the hotel scene the girls when asked about AIDS. Replied something like this, why worry about something that might kill you in 10 years. The girls logic in the middle of an African civil war makes more scene than this dumb idea.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.
In the Lord of War, in the hotel scene the girls when asked about AIDS. Replied something like this, why worry about something that might kill you in 10 years. The girls logic in the middle of an African civil war makes more scene than this dumb idea.
I suppose the + is one can go from non lethal to lethal quickly without having to transition. The negative is, one can go from non lethal to lethal quickly without having to transition!
Are you could have the bullet go through that ball miss the guy due to being deflected and kill someones mother down range.
Second I have had to fight for my life against a knife attack and a hatchet attack, EFFFFFFFFFFF less lethal.
Lastly the more BS like this that is invented by idiots that are stupid whores and care more about making money than cops going home at night. The harder the job will become.
It is simple if a guy with a knife or hatchet is 20 meters away and yelling but not charging me, I can sit there all day. Get paid by the hour, goes into over time no problem. Just bring me a coffee and I can wait forever.
Start closing the distance, the situation doesn't call for less lethal, so get on with it.
Soon the liberals will want less lethal for everything. End result is dead cops.
Sorry for the rant but in Israel, we have even more idiots trying to sell snake oil than you get in the USA.
See the sweep move at 20 seconds.. Looks like a good way to shoot your hand off while deploying that thing. In a real SHTF situation taking one's finger off of the trigger to mount it probably aint gonna happen. If you've got enough time to put it on you have enough time for a well placed less than lethal shot if he is making threats with a knife. If he has a gun the first shot needs to be the money shot. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
My skills at navigating their website may be sketchy, but they are pretty short on details. More on that later.
The first thing folks need to realize about less-lethal projectiles is that, when used appropriately, they do not incapacitate, they merely help folks decide to quite. Goal-directed folks, whether by drugs, fear, rage mental disorder, or extreme focus on the task can absorb a lot of damage before they stop.
If you study less-lethal issues, you will find that much (not all) of the liability comes from 1) inappropriate usage - primarily shot placement and range and 2) repeated usage on a non-complying individual resulting in death or permanent disability.
Without boring to tears, here is the main issue that jumps out at me:
Product: Bullet capture device that catches a live bullet fired from a gun. It works like an airbag for a bullet...slowing it down to 1/5 speed. Still retaining the blunt impact force to knock a suspect down, while lessening the lethal potential of the fired bullet
The website doesn't provided details on the less-lethal projectile weight or the velocity parameters of the pistol rounds. If we go at 1150 (Gold Dot 124gr) 1/5 speed is 230 fps. Compare that to one of the most common 12 gauge less-lethal projectile's, the CTS Super Sock, which travels at 280fps. The Super Sock weighs 1.41oz/618g. It delivers 112 ft lbs of potential energy.
According to their blog 'The product itself only weighs about 2 ounces and sits in a small pouch on their duty belt.' so I'd SWAG the projectile weight about the same since the device weight also includes the docking aparatus.
I can tell you that a Super Sock doesn't knock ANY adult down that doesn't AGREE to being knocked down. So 'still retaining the blunt impact force to knock a suspect down' is BS.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-04-17, 15:06
How many did the Secret Service order?
Yep, thought so.
Muzzle sweeps with hand, what's not to love.
Never mind that it would have done nothing in the Furgeson shooting. But like most liberal gun plans, it isn't about actually solving problems. It is about making it so that if you didn't use a Rube Goldberg device, then you must be a racist, blood lust islamophobe.
He makes it look so easy to deploy, but is his heart rate and adrenaline jacked up to the moon?
Blackjacks need to make a comeback.
Are you could have the bullet go through that ball miss the guy due to being deflected and kill someones mother down range.
Second I have had to fight for my life against a knife attack and a hatchet attack, EFFFFFFFFFFF less lethal.
Lastly the more BS like this that is invented by idiots that are stupid whores and care more about making money than cops going home at night. The harder the job will become.
It is simple if a guy with a knife or hatchet is 20 meters away and yelling but not charging me, I can sit there all day. Get paid by the hour, goes into over time no problem. Just bring me a coffee and I can wait forever.
Start closing the distance, the situation doesn't call for less lethal, so get on with it.
Soon the liberals will want less lethal for everything. End result is dead cops.
Sorry for the rant but in Israel, we have even more idiots trying to sell snake oil than you get in the USA.
Exactly.
How many did the Secret Service order?
Yep, thought so.
Muzzle sweeps with hand, what's not to love.
Never mind that it would have done nothing in the Furgeson shooting. But like most liberal gun plans, it isn't about actually solving problems. It is about making it so that if you didn't use a Rube Goldberg device, then you must be a racist, blood lust islamophobe.
And this is spot on too. Also, what happens when an officer hits a perp in the head and fractures his skull? We don't need these stupid less lethal devices. Until someone masters an energy based device that completely incapacitated a suspect, lethal force using a firearm is the best means of threat mitigation.
wildcard600
04-04-17, 17:20
This is on par with the "trigger actuated light/laser" for stupidest gun invention of the decade.
dwhitehorne
04-04-17, 17:33
Years ago we use to teach removing duty shotgun ammo and loading up Less Lethal. We don't do that anymore for a reason. This looks like the same stupid concept. David
I think that a flare pistol would be an outstanding non lethal device and would discourage all but the most resolute attackers. Cattle prods work well in jail houses but many view them in negative light. I gave away my blackjacks so I could improve my image.
I gave away my blackjacks so I could improve my image.
:(
This is why I can never have heroes....
Exactly.
And this is spot on too. Also, what happens when an officer hits a perp in the head and fractures his skull? We don't need these stupid less lethal devices. Until someone masters an energy based device that completely incapacitated a suspect, lethal force using a firearm is the best means of threat mitigation.
Well, there are myriad situation where less-lethal options are cats ass, you just have to plan appropriately and strictly adhere to the less-lethal mantra 'Never sacrifice officer safety to bring a less-lethal conclusion to a lethal situation.'
Willing to discuss more, but late for a meeting.
I still carry a blackjack.
Have used it in the USA, Middle East, EU, Africa, Dominican Republic.
My grandfather who was an old style sheriff was of the mind that a gentleman needed the following when he left the house.
1.Brace of handguns he started with Colt single action revolvers, later went to 1911's in 38 super
2. Sharp knife size depended on what you were doing
3. Sap/ Blackjack
4. Enough cash to carry you through the day
5. Two good cigars
And I thought mix loading a shotgun with LTLs was precarious. This is right up there with that safety bullet nonsense.
Moose-Knuckle
04-05-17, 02:28
I think that a flare pistol would be an outstanding non lethal device and would discourage all but the most resolute attackers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU8h2s0LnNQ
I knew a guy who drove up to Alaska every other year for salmon season and kept a flare gun for protection against 2 legged predators and bears. I always imagined that I would rather be shot with a .44 than a flare!
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Years ago we use to teach removing duty shotgun ammo and loading up Less Lethal. We don't do that anymore for a reason. This looks like the same stupid concept. David
Yeah I can't believe they got a bunch of lawyers to sign off on this thing...
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How can a flare gun nut shot go right?
I was soooooooooooooooo very disappointed in the result of the flare gun nut shot.
I was so hoping that anyone this stupid would have burned his nuts off, to remove his DNA from the gene pool.
Yeah I can't believe they got a bunch of lawyers to sign off on this thing...
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Years ago most agencies didn't have patrol rifles and only carried shotguns. Most didn't want to put two shotguns into each unit. Even with two shotguns, there was the line of thought that officers would never have the correct one when needed. Thus verified change-over came about.
Verified change-over worked - as long as officers followed the protocol/policy. I'm not saying it was ideal, but if policy was followed it worked.
IIRC, last time I looked there had been 13 folks killed with less-lethal rounds in the US since the 1970's - most with the old bean bags. Pretty sure only 2 with mistaken ammo, IIRC one slug and one breeching round.
In today's world with patrol rifles if you are going to bring a less-lethal option to the party I think it should be a back-up officer who arrives knowing they will be the less-lethal. And I think it should be 40mm. But those cost too much so most agencies stay with the shotgun.
Agencies sure don't spend enough time on firearms training in general, this often gets worse when you get into the realm of less-lethal - everyone wants a four-hour course once every other year.
JM .02
Years ago most agencies didn't have patrol rifles and only carried shotguns. Most didn't want to put two shotguns into each unit. Even with two shotguns, there was the line of thought that officers would never have the correct one when needed. Thus verified change-over came about.
Verified change-over worked - as long as officers followed the protocol/policy. I'm not saying it was ideal, but if policy was followed it worked.
IIRC, last time I looked there had been 13 folks killed with less-lethal rounds in the US since the 1970's - most with the old bean bags. Pretty sure only 2 with mistaken ammo, IIRC one slug and one breeching round.
In today's world with patrol rifles if you are going to bring a less-lethal option to the party I think it should be a back-up officer who arrives knowing they will be the less-lethal. And I think it should be 40mm. But those cost too much so most agencies stay with the shotgun.
Agencies sure don't spend enough time on firearms training in general, this often gets worse when you get into the realm of less-lethal - everyone wants a four-hour course once every other year.
JM .02
Yep, I'll defer to you when it comes to anything LE. I was more pointing out the part where you are required to put something over the business end of a loaded gun. Especially when other proven options exist.
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Averageman
04-05-17, 13:19
Yep, I'll defer to you when it comes to anything LE. I was more pointing out the part where you are required to put something over the business end of a loaded gun. Especially when other proven options exist.
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Oh come on, in a high stress environment with insane, intoxicated or possibly melee weapon armed criminals, I mean really, what could possibly go wrong?
Slightly OT but Fatass shoots himself point blank in the face with a paint ball gun, loses a tooth, and then wonders how that could have happened.
Sad.
Also, not having a dedicated less lethal shotgun is asking for an entire garden of Oopsie Daisies
Not that new, but new to me. Ever see this thing? A "non lethal" on the end of a duty gun, what could possibly go wrong? :blink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5vUXdwABs
Looks like a good option for firing a warning shot :jester:
Did everyone notice that Yoni made a socially negative comment when he expressed disappointment that the flare gun nut shot shooter missed his nuts and that we would have been better off human had his aim been better? :lol:
Yep, I'll defer to you when it comes to anything LE. I was more pointing out the part where you are required to put something over the business end of a loaded gun. Especially when other proven options exist.
I think I got mixed up someplace, or quoted the wrong thing. Because, yes, it is crazy.
A cheap single shot 12 gauge designated for non lethal rounds might be a safe and inexpensive alternative weapon for non lethal rounds.
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