View Full Version : U.S. warns clock has ‘run out’ on N. Korea
My thoughts: N Korea is a PITA for China at this point too. We make a deal with China, they hold the northern border so Korean mil etc can't go north and agree to not defend N Korea as they did before, and we, made up of an international coalition come from the south. Classic hammer and anvil tactic. N Korea wouldn't last long. Obviously the major issue then is nukes. Right now they are crude and few, but that's changing quickly. I think China wants an unstable crap country with nukes on their border even less than we want them on the S Korean border at this point. If we wait, danger only increases now. N Korea's utility to China has passed from what I can gather.
If it can be done so that China does not lose face, I'd bet $ they'd agree to it. The big issue would be what comes after that? Give it to the south seems obvious but China may not dig that. Maybe if we promised to remove all troops within X years, etc. It seems obvious there will be no regime change within N Korea and the build up of nukes and improved delivery systems makes it more dangerous with each day to ignore.
Stick with containment or go direct action?
WASHINGTON — Days before President Trump hosts his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, a top U.S. official warned Tuesday that “the clock has run out” on decades of diplomatic efforts to rein in North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs, and military action may ultimately be necessary.
“The clock has now run out, and all options are on the table for us,” the official told reporters at a briefing held on condition that he not be identified by name.
Hours after those remarks were reported, North Korea fired a ballistic missile into the waters off its east coast, according to South Korean officials.
Trump will host Xi late this week at his Mar-a-Lago private club in Florida, their first face-to-face talks since the November election. The American president is expected to raise longstanding concerns about what the new administration angrily describes as an unfair bilateral trade relationship and about what is seen in the West Wing as Beijing’s stubborn refusal to do more to contain North Korea’s belligerent behavior.
“It is now urgent, because we feel that the clock is very, very quickly running out,” the official told reporters. “We would have loved to see North Korea join the community of nations. They’ve been given that opportunity over the course of different dialogues and offers over the course of four administrations, with some of our best diplomats and statesmen doing the best they could to bring about a resolution.”
Xi’s willingness to work more closely with Washington on North Korea will be “in some ways, a test of the relationship,” the official said. Trump is expected to press his guest to fully enforce international economic sanctions meant to starve the secretive regime in Pyongyang of resources — and especially hurt the lifestyle of its ruling elites.
In the days and weeks before the high-stakes summit between Trump and Xi, the administration has escalated its rhetoric on North Korea. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson recently said the threat that country poses is “imminent.” During a trip to Asia, he said Washington is out of “strategic patience” and that “all options are on the table” — a phrase typically understood to refer to military action. In mid-March, Trump said on Twitter that North Korea was “behaving very badly” and complained that “China has done little to help.”
Cont:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ahead-of-trump-xi-summit-u-s-warns-clock-has-run-out-on-n-korea-215417128.html
And who can we thank for this current situation?
"Back in 1994, President Clinton prepared to confront North Korea over CIA reports it had built nuclear warheads and its subsequent threats to engulf Japan and South Korea in “a sea of fire.”
Enter self-appointed peacemaker Carter: The ex-prez scurried off to Pyongyang and negotiated a sellout deal that gave North Korea two new reactors and $5 billion in aid in return for a promise to quit seeking nukes.
Clinton embraced this appeasement as achieving “an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula” — with compliance verified by international inspectors. Carter wound up winning the Nobel Peace Prize for his dubious efforts.
But in 2002, the North Koreans ’fessed up: They’d begun violating the accord on Day One. Four years later, Pyongyang detonated its first nuke. "
http://nypost.com/2016/01/06/you-can-thank-jimmy-carter-and-bill-clinton-for-north-koreas-nukes/
SomeOtherGuy
04-05-17, 10:47
Hard to read the tea leaves. I agree that China is about done with NK, but I think any US involvement will be seen by China as their losing face, so US pressure here may in fact encourage them to support negative value NK.
A lightning takeover of NK by US/SK forces would be terrifying to China, and that could be either good or bad for us in strategic posture. If the war drags on more than a month then the US and SK public would likely stop supporting it and things could get really ugly.
From what little I understand, China is an unpredictable enigma to any outsider, even those who study it. China itself is suffering from instability and economic problems, and left on its own, it might go the way of the USSR in 10-20 years. The major characteristics I see of China are:
-->insanely nationalistic
-->extreme emphasis on "saving face" and what looks to me as a societal "little man syndrome" (so-called Napoleon complex - but Napoleon wasn't actually short, see http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/03/napolean-bonaparte-having-been-short-is-a-myth/ )
-->systemic fraud at all levels, so even the central government doesn't know what's going on
-->astonishing levels of pollution
-->widespread belief in racial and cultural superiority of Chinese people
-->belief that people of Chinese ancestry living outside of PRC are nonetheless part of the "Chinese nation" and belong to the PRC
To me that's a recipe for instability and a strong risk of accidental wars.
And who can we thank for this current situation?
Enter self-appointed peacemaker Carter: The ex-prez scurried off to Pyongyang and negotiated a sellout deal that gave North Korea two new reactors and $5 billion in aid in return for a promise to quit seeking nukes.
Clinton embraced this appeasement as achieving “an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula” — with compliance verified by international inspectors. Carter wound up winning the Nobel Peace Prize for his dubious efforts.
Thank both of them. Carter is a naive fool. Clinton is a globalist, and globalists profit from chaos and strife.
I say this with the caveat that the intel community may know something we don't, but based on what we have seen so far, containment. If containment doesn't work, a surgical strike on weapons facilities a la Operation Opera/Babylon on the Osirak reactor. An invasion would be a disaster.
Hard to read the tea leaves. I agree that China is about done with NK, but I think any US involvement will be seen by China as their losing face, so US pressure here may in fact encourage them to support negative value NK.
A lightning takeover of NK by US/SK forces would be terrifying to China, and that could be either good or bad for us in strategic posture. If the war drags on more than a month then the US and SK public would likely stop supporting it and things could get really ugly.
From what little I understand, China is an unpredictable enigma to any outsider, even those who study it. China itself is suffering from instability and economic problems, and left on its own, it might go the way of the USSR in 10-20 years. The major characteristics I see of China are:
-->insanely nationalistic
-->extreme emphasis on "saving face" and what looks to me as a societal "little man syndrome" (so-called Napoleon complex - but Napoleon wasn't actually short, see http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/03/napolean-bonaparte-having-been-short-is-a-myth/ )
-->systemic fraud at all levels, so even the central government doesn't know what's going on
-->astonishing levels of pollution
-->widespread belief in racial and cultural superiority of Chinese people
-->belief that people of Chinese ancestry living outside of PRC are nonetheless part of the "Chinese nation" and belong to the PRC
To me that's a recipe for instability and a strong risk of accidental wars.
Without some type of back door agreement made with China prior to, China would defend NK is my bet. I think they'd be happy to let us do the heavy lifting if done in such a way they didn't lose face.
We have a complicated relationship with China. I think China would support us (even if just in private) right up to any action seen as an invasion, then I think they would go ape shit. The US in their backyard? They are going nutty over our fleet in the South China Sea and talk of military aid to Vietnam.
Outlander Systems
04-05-17, 11:23
Any, ANY overt show of force would green light an invasion/attack on SK by the NORKs.
North Korea and Iran should have been dealt with militarily a decade or more ago.
I say this with the caveat that the intel community may know something we don't, but based on what we have seen so far, containment. If containment doesn't work, a surgical strike on weapons facilities a la Operation Opera/Babylon on the Osirak reactor. An invasion would be a disaster.
What are the odds China is "allowing" this behavior by NK, to use as a bargaining chip with the US? Meaning, trade talks.
Without getting anything in return, I think Will is correct that the Chinese would support the north in any kind of US vs scenario.
Regarding a single surgical strike...I read somewhere that NK has 30,000+ artillery guns pointed directly at Seoul, to be engaged at the first sign of hostility. WTF would we do about that?
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SomeOtherGuy
04-05-17, 11:46
What are the odds China is "allowing" this behavior by NK, to use as a bargaining chip with the US? Meaning, trade talks.
100%, but NK is such a POS that China would rather not have to deal with it any more. If it weren't for their "loss of face" concern they might not care if we did something.
Regarding a single surgical strike...I read somewhere that NK has 30,000+ artillery guns pointed directly at Seoul, to be engaged at the first sign of hostility. WTF would we do about that?
Trident II D5, depressed trajectory shot, say 12 missiles x 14 MIRVs each, should thin that artillery out nicely. Six minutes or less from launch to impact means not enough time for NK to do anything, even if they had their own capable early warning radar which they probably don't.
So, that deals with the immediate tactical problem. I'll let someone else figure out how to deal with what happens 20 minutes after that strike.
Regarding a single surgical strike...I read somewhere that NK has 30,000+ artillery guns pointed directly at Seoul, to be engaged at the first sign of hostility. WTF would we do about that?
I did say "surgical," but I did not say "single." There are ways to mitigate that threat. Not my first option (like I have any say in the matter), but if NK continues to build bigger missiles with bigger payload and capability, standing idly by simply may not be an option.
Regarding China, at the end of the day NK is like a mother-in-law...always there, annoying. Aside from a threat of US boots across the border, I don't know they have a lot of attachment to NK.
Edited to add, any military action in NK may well precipitate a bigger action, but who knows how NK will respond. They are loony-tunes nuts and unpredictable.
IMO, china wants an unstable lap dog neighbor to "proxy" irritate the US. Despite being called a communist regime, NK is a pure dictatorship. China and NK are 2 of the last holdouts of the Communist theorem as a means of government political operation and control. Granted, that theorem could be long gone in a few years. What is a viable end game here? Like some one else said, this should have been dealt with long ago. Instead of pro actionary, the world (read USA and allies) will now need to be reactionary and I doubt it will end well or easily. Just MHO.
IMO, china wants an unstable lap dog neighbor to "proxy" irritate the US.
That need was there for the old USSR; I am not sure it's there for China. China seems to be far more vested in squabbling over Taiwan (pop 23 million) than Korea (pop 75 million, combined). There are other neighbors that are legit thorns in our side, I am thinking the five -stans to the west. I just don't think China cares about North Korea much at all, unless it is a threat (and China has spoken out against a nuclear North Korea).
I completely agree that NK should have been dealt with a long time ago, and that is would end messy.
I would make it crystal clear to China that any nuke coming out of North Korea would be dealt with in-kind and without hesitation, so if they don't want canned sunshine just over their border then it would behoove them to reign in NK. And as POTUS I would follow-through with that threat if those little shits did lob a nuke at us or our allies.
IMO, China likes the buffer zone that NK provides. However, that buffer zone is at the cost of being a PITA and that cost is beginning to increase. Unsure why China would upset about a unified Korea, other than maybe China would now be the lone Communist power of the planet and a unified Korea would probably be allied with the USA and its allies. China does have rampant problems at home as well, if the downfall of NK makes the possibility of a Chinese middle class revolt into something real.........
I would make it crystal clear to China that any nuke coming out of North Korea would be dealt with in-kind and without hesitation, so if they don't want canned sunshine just over their border then it would behoove them to reign in NK. And as POTUS I would follow-through with that threat if those little shits did lob a nuke at us or our allies.
Any nukes detonated on the Korean Peninsula could have far far reaching consequences for the rest of the world. Containment and speedy conclusion to a limited exchange may help. The world hasn't seen a nuke detonated in fury in 70 years, the reaction to that event could be devastating.
Any nukes detonated on the Korean Peninsula could have far far reaching consequences for the rest of the world. Containment and speedy conclusion to a limited exchange may help. The world hasn't seen a nuke detonated in fury in 70 years, the reaction to that event could be devastating.
So we should just shrug it off if the Norks nuke us or our allies? That we should be the "better person" and allow it, or that we should respond conventionally (?). Tit for tat, eye for an eye. Use a nuke, you in turn will glow. Real simple. For anyone in their right mind that is a damn good deterrent.
ETA: I'm not for military action on NK unless it's a response to an attack from them, and then a response in-kind. So yeah, containment, but if it fails and they get stupid then they won't have to worry about a starving population anymore.......
Averageman
04-05-17, 13:26
North Korea Communist?
I was thinking they may claim the title, but really, hasn't it moved more toward being a kingdom?
I'm just thinking when Grand Dad ran the place, then Dad, now Pudgy Jr. aren't we really dealing with something far removed from Communism?
I do believe that throughout history China has had a predetermined "buffer zone". It proved to be there during the Korean War and for the Vietnamese after the Viet Nam War. Screw around too close to the border and China gets froggy and then jumps.
Getting past that would be the hurtle, but NorK is no friend to the Chinese. I seem to remember reading about a supply train going from China to North Korea arriving with badly needed food for the people of NorK, it was promptly stolen by the NorK's.
SomeOtherGuy
04-05-17, 13:55
North Korea Communist?
I was thinking they may claim the title, but really, hasn't it moved more toward being a kingdom?
I'm just thinking when Grand Dad ran the place, then Dad, now Pudgy Jr. aren't we really dealing with something far removed from Communism?
Hereditary kingdom - yes, 100%. Blatant. No pretense.
Far removed from Communism? Well, Communism is just a theory, and it has never been seriously tried anywhere. Nor do I think it ever will be, nor should be. It has always been used as a facade so a previously less-powerful group can take over and rape the nation brutally. Cuba probably came closer than some but Castro lived like an emperor - another total farce.
I'm not sure any of the political ideologies are actually meaningful. They all seem be used merely as a way to confuse, distract and mollify people who can't see the truth through the haze. Communism has been the most extreme and blatant farce, but it's not the only one.
I blame this all on Truman being too much of a pussywimp to let MacArthur go in there and blow out them commie bastards
I blame this all on Truman being too much of a pussywimp to let MacArthur go in there and blow out them commie bastards
You do know that he wanted to light up the populated coast of China with something like 50-70 nukes, right? Sure, it might have put a cork in China's bottle but that was a bit extreme don't you think? Talk about genocide!
I blame this all on Truman being too much of a pussywimp to let MacArthur go in there and blow out them commie bastards
Lol....classic scene from Back to School:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn9xAaKUbw
North Korea Communist?
I was thinking they may claim the title, but really, hasn't it moved more toward being a kingdom?
I'm just thinking when Grand Dad ran the place, then Dad, now Pudgy Jr. aren't we really dealing with something far removed from Communism?
I do believe that throughout history China has had a predetermined "buffer zone". It proved to be there during the Korean War and for the Vietnamese after the Viet Nam War. Screw around too close to the border and China gets froggy and then jumps.
Getting past that would be the hurtle, but NorK is no friend to the Chinese. I seem to remember reading about a supply train going from China to North Korea arriving with badly needed food for the people of NorK, it was promptly stolen by the NorK's.
They have existed in the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' status for centuries, but that utility is coming to an end if not gone, so if the Chinese felt it was in their best interest, via deals, etc, etc, they'd likely jump at the chance to be rid of NK is my sense. It's a dangerous gamble to be sure, but containment failed and so did internal regime change. So, gamble of not doing anything until they have an arsenal of ICBMs that can reach the US (which they make no bones about admitting is the goal) is not an option it seems to me.
sevenhelmet
04-05-17, 14:29
Will, can you define "get rid of NK" please? I think clear and concise strategic goals are something our leadership has been sorely lacking in for the past, oh, 30 years or so. Possibly longer. At this point, I don't see this NK nonsense ending in anything but one (or both) of 2 ways:
1.) Nukes being used somewhere, which is obviously bad, because it won't be just one, or just one player.
2.) NK's regime being toppled and it turning into yet another failed state that becomes an incubator for terrorism. Because the world needs another one of those. :rolleyes:
Anyone see a better resolution than those two that doesn't make things worse for good old 'Murica? If anyone from this administration starts talking about "nation building" in NK, I might get physically ill.
SomeOtherGuy
04-05-17, 14:36
2.) NK's regime being toppled and it turning into yet another failed state that becomes an incubator for terrorism. Because the world needs another one of those. :rolleyes:
Anyone see a better resolution than those two that doesn't make things worse for good old 'Murica? If anyone from this administration starts talking about "nation building" in NK, I might get physically ill.
How many terrorism-fostering states are there that don't involve Islam? How many Muslims are in NK? (you can probably count that # on hands and feet)
NK is like a much worse version of East Germany: a shithole commie side of a divided country, with a prosperous western side next door. Many Korean families have branches on both sides of the DMZ. NK after toppling the king isn't going to be a failed state, it would be the poor part of a reunified Korea.
Of course, China doesn't want a unified and non-commie Korea next door, because it will make their system look worse than it does now to all its inhabitants. (Note: I am under no misconception that South Korea is truly free, in the US sense, or a place that I personally would want to live.)
Averageman
04-05-17, 14:38
Tie it all up in a nice bundle and put it in a deal.
You want "X", we want the Fat Boy gone, we don't care how, just gone. Bottom line up front, get rid of the Fat Boy.
Seems simple to me, Xi, here it is, put two behind his ear, then we got a deal.
How many terrorism-fostering states are there that don't involve Islam? How many Muslims are in NK? (you can probably count that # on hands and feet)
NK is like a much worse version of East Germany: a shithole commie side of a divided country, with a prosperous western side next door. Many Korean families have branches on both sides of the DMZ. NK after toppling the king isn't going to be a failed state, it would be the poor part of a reunified Korea.
Of course, China doesn't want a unified and non-commie Korea next door, because it will make their system look worse than it does now to all its inhabitants. (Note: I am under no misconception that South Korea is truly free, in the US sense, or a place that I personally would want to live.)
How many states now? Or historically? Yeah, aside from NK just about every other terror-sponsoring shithole involves Muslims. Don't see too many Baader-Meinhof thugs running around these days. RAF, communist, and left-wing pro-revolutionaries are so 70s and 80s.
I don't think China cares if Korea is all-in Kim Jong-un or all-in red-white-and-blue pro-Americans as long as neither are a threat to them. China doesn't give a damn what its inhabitants think.
So we should just shrug it off if the Norks nuke us or our allies? That we should be the "better person" and allow it, or that we should respond conventionally (?). Tit for tat, eye for an eye. Use a nuke, you in turn will glow. Real simple. For anyone in their right mind that is a damn good deterrent.
ETA: I'm not for military action on NK unless it's a response to an attack from them, and then a response in-kind. So yeah, containment, but if it fails and they get stupid then they won't have to worry about a starving population anymore.......
It's only a deterrent until a nuke is actually used. Once used, Pandora's box becomes difficult to close.....in terms of what happens for the rest of us on this planet. Mutually assured destruction was used during the Cold War. Probably doesn't apply here unless China steps in. Agreed on if containment doesn't work, but the repercussions would be global......at least potentially.
It's only a deterrent until a nuke is actually used. Once used, Pandora's box becomes difficult to close.....in terms of what happens for the rest of us on this planet. Mutually assured destruction was used during the Cold War. Probably doesn't apply here unless China steps in. Agreed on if containment doesn't work, but the repercussions would be global......at least potentially.
Great points. I wonder if NK did use a nuke how China would respond if we told them ahead of time, "we are using low-yield tactical nukes here, here, and here." If they are on the wrong end of the fallout footprint....
Dist. Expert 26
04-05-17, 15:21
Taking a preemptive nuclear strike off the table, why not dust off an old Fulda Gap plan and hit them blitzkrieg style? Stealth aircraft paired with SOF on the ground take out air defense systems and communications. Conventional bombers follow immediately behind taking out armor and artillery. Amphibious landing up and down the coast combined with armor crossing the DMZ. My guess is their military would fall to pieces almost immediately since they have exactly zero experience outside of training.
Go in with a clear cut plan to hand things over to the south within x number of days after a cease fire. Actually leave. No occupation force.
The only real question is if they'll nuke themselves to stop us.
You do know that he wanted to light up the populated coast of China with something like 50-70 nukes, right? Sure, it might have put a cork in China's bottle but that was a bit extreme don't you think? Talk about genocide!
Our Soldier's bodiews, Chinese soldier's bodies, didn't matter to MacArthur, he just wanted to be legendary. Eff him and Patton.
Great points. I wonder if NK did use a nuke how China would respond if we told them ahead of time, "we are using low-yield tactical nukes here, here, and here." If they are on the wrong end of the fallout footprint....
Prevailing winds.....Japan might be affected, that is unless the Sea of Japan absorbs most of it. I doubt Japan needs anymore radiation right now. China would freak, they would claim that a nuke strike by us would cause them to lose face......Asia as a whole is big on losing face, they take it to heart.
Taking a preemptive nuclear strike off the table, why not dust off an old Fulda Gap plan and hit them blitzkrieg style? Stealth aircraft paired with SOF on the ground take out air defense systems and communications. Conventional bombers follow immediately behind taking out armor and artillery. Amphibious landing up and down the coast combined with armor crossing the DMZ. My guess is their military would fall to pieces almost immediately since they have exactly zero experience outside of training.
Go in with a clear cut plan to hand things over to the south within x number of days after a cease fire. Actually leave. No occupation force.
The only real question is if they'll nuke themselves to stop us.
Best non nuke option. Tell China before hand maybe......or not and watch what happens.
Averageman
04-05-17, 15:33
Honestly I think the Nuke option will never be considered unless the North launches first. I honestly think regardless the Chinese if faced with this would have few other options, or even long consider any few they have, they would launch.
Zero to WWIII in 30 minutes or less.
Based on the facts you folks have presented here and what history has shown us, the answer to this problem is then left to one of two options.
A conventional strike with conventional non nuclear missiles and even then only with the Chinese having prior knowledge and agreeing to the strike.
or;
Leave this up to the Chinese to handle as a part of a deal for continued trade.
Unfortunately we have no one but ourselves, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton to thank for this mess.
The only real question is if they'll nuke themselves to stop us.
I don't believe there is any doubt the fruit cake would use nukes within North Korean borders.
Realistically we should be putting people on the ground inside North Korea and getting an idea on how far we have to go down the chain of command to find someone who isn't batshit crazy, then decapitate their government to that level.
I don't believe we have that capability - in terms of on the ground resources, we should be working to build it quickly. I'm am well aware that my conjecture in this regard may be completely wrong, frankly I hope it is.
What if NK freaks realizing it's being attacked and launches any and all nukes they have....not at the US but at US interests? Japan or SK for instance? If NK realizes that it is going to burn, they might figure why not take some people with them. Junior Pants is certainly paranoid and crazy enough, mix those 2 with a 10 yr old kid maturity and there you have it.
I don't believe there is any doubt the fruit cake would use nukes within North Korean borders.
Realistically we should be putting people on the ground inside North Korea and getting an idea on how far we have to go down the chain of command to find someone who isn't batshit crazy, then decapitate their government to that level.
I don't believe we have that capability - in terms of on the ground resources, we should be working to build it quickly. I'm am well aware that my conjecture in this regard may be completely wrong, frankly I hope it is.
If the NSA is spying on Americans as well as the rest of the world, we probably have something clandestine going on in NK. Ok, maybe.
Too bad there isn't a chance of taking out that Little Porker? I suppose he sleeps in a different underground hog house each night. Even if he was taken out, how far down the line is the command & control loyal to Tubby? We've had problems over the years taking out 3rd World Leadership, only to have it replaced by something even nastier.
Outlander Systems
04-05-17, 17:11
Three words Carbine Bros:
Rods. From. God.
Great points. I wonder if NK did use a nuke how China would respond if we told them ahead of time, "we are using low-yield tactical nukes here, here, and here." If they are on the wrong end of the fallout footprint....
That's where that warning to China comes in: reign the fat boy in because if he pops a nuke he's getting nuked right back.
Prevailing winds.....Japan might be affected, that is unless the Sea of Japan absorbs most of it. I doubt Japan needs anymore radiation right now. China would freak, they would claim that a nuke strike by us would cause them to lose face......Asia as a whole is big on losing face, they take it to heart.
Should not in any way impact a decision to retaliate in-kind. I would want to see ANY president (regardless of party) impeached if they failed to respond to a nuke with a nuke, and I don't ever want to see it, believe me.
Honestly I think the Nuke option will never be considered unless the North launches first. I honestly think regardless the Chinese if faced with this would have few other options, or even long consider any few they have, they would launch.
Zero to WWIII in 30 minutes or less.
Based on the facts you folks have presented here and what history has shown us, the answer to this problem is then left to one of two options.
A conventional strike with conventional non nuclear missiles and even then only with the Chinese having prior knowledge and agreeing to the strike.
or;
Leave this up to the Chinese to handle as a part of a deal for continued trade.
Unfortunately we have no one but ourselves, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton to thank for this mess.
Nor should it.
During the Korean War, England and our European allies perceived the USSR to be a great threat. We agreed with this assessment. Hence, we could not fight an all out war with China in Asia and another war with the Soviet bloc in Europe. Anyway, WW 3 would have been the result. Also, when Korea flamed up, a very large amount of new in the box allied war materials including tanks, trucks, planes, and weapons had been dumped into the ocean. Our large military had been demobilized over night. Another factor was that the Allies were tired of war after just having been in a world war from 1939 to 1945. When the Korean War started, the Brits still had rationing. They were financially broke. So was France. So were the other allied nations. However, the USSR was still operating a war economy making guns while we were churning butter. Gen M.'s recommendations were based on fantasy. Our concern with defending S. Koreas was based on our need to protect Japan from communist take over. Japan had become our jewel in Asia.
During the Korean War, England and our European allies perceived the USSR to be a great threat. We agreed with this assessment. Hence, we could not fight an all out war with China in Asia and another war with the Soviet bloc in Europe. Anyway, WW 3 would have been the result. Also, when Korea flamed up, a very large amount of new in the box allied war materials including tanks, trucks, planes, and weapons had been dumped into the ocean. Our large military had been demobilized over night. Another factor was that the Allies were tired of war after just having been in a world war from 1939 to 1945. When the Korean War started, the Brits still had rationing. They were financially broke. So was France. So were the other allied nations. However, the USSR was still operating a war economy making guns while we were churning butter. Gen M.'s recommendations were based on fantasy. Our concern with defending S. Koreas was based on our need to protect Japan from communist take over. Japan had become our jewel in Asia.
Our fear the commies would spread like a cancer if left unchecked was not an unfounded one no matter what modern revisionists of history would claim. That made for some odd to really awful bed fellows and big loss of life that still ripples around and shapes the globe.
I have a better idea. We hold the southern border and let China exterminate or absorb NK. South Korea absorbing a pile of brainwashed starving folks would kill their economy. The US would then need to shed blood and support $$. Why do we need that??
Our fear the commies would spread like a cancer if left unchecked was not an unfounded one no matter what modern revisionists of history would claim. That made for some odd to really awful bed fellows and big loss of life that still ripples around and shapes the globe.
The major players (USSR and China) were not into global conquest. The Soviet Union specifically wanted a buffer region to beat the crap out of NATO were we to invade, and other countries they went into, they were invited. Their big prize, really, was East Germany; we just handed that over to them on a platter.
As for China, after WWII they sure as hell did not like us in their back yard (Korea, Indochina) and backed North Korea and North Vietnam, even though they did not care for Vietnam, either. Their relations with NK started getting spotty with NK's advancement of the nuke program.
The USSR was into proxy agents and OK with pseudo-colonialism, but mainly because they thought we wanted to colonize the world.
I have a better idea. We hold the southern border and let China exterminate or absorb NK. South Korea absorbing a pile of brainwashed starving folks would kill their economy. The US would then need to shed blood and support $$. Why do we need that??
That's a good idea.
Outlander Systems
04-07-17, 09:45
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3278761/kim-jong-un-donald-trump-us-north-korea-world-war-33278761/
Thae, a former deputy ambassador in London, told NBC News: "Once he sees that there is any kind of sign of a tank or an imminent threat from America, then he would use his nuclear weapons with ICBM.
"If Kim Jong-un has nuclear weapons and ICBMs, he can do anything.
"So, I think the world should be ready to deal with this kind of person."
He continued: "Kim Jong-un is a man who can do anything beyond the normal imagination."
He added that the only "real solution to the North Korean nuclear issue is to eliminate Kim Jong-un from the post".
Having meddled in Asia and the Middle East, what have we accomplished? Nation building? Democracy and religious freedom for others? Regime change? Enlightenment? Liberty for the oppressed? Advancement of America's position in world affairs? Desired outcome in somebody else's civil war? In every case, we have had to put American GI's on the ground. My opinion is that if get into another war with a communist nation, there is a high probability that the other c. countries will align with our opponent. During the Vietnam War, even our allies like Britain and France were actively trading with North Vietnam. The entire communist bloc nations were actively shipping war supplies into N. Vietnam and doing so without hindrance until Nixon mined their main port. England and our other friends bitched like hell about the mining. We must proceed cautiously.
I have a better idea. We hold the southern border and let China exterminate or absorb NK. South Korea absorbing a pile of brainwashed starving folks would kill their economy. The US would then need to shed blood and support $$. Why do we need that??
The only problem is the same "East / West Germany" thing, lots of people in the South have family in the North. Not everyone in the North is a lockstep supporter of Kim, they are just trying to stay alive.
I wouldn't have a problem with your plan, just so long as those who want to go to SK are free to do so. I'd also use NK as a bargaining chip to resolve the Taiwan issue. They get NK and they forget about Taiwan.
The only problem is the same "East / West Germany" thing, lots of people in the South have family in the North. Not everyone in the North is a lockstep supporter of Kim, they are just trying to stay alive.
I wouldn't have a problem with your plan, just so long as those who want to go to SK are free to do so. I'd also use NK as a bargaining chip to resolve the Taiwan issue. They get NK and they forget about Taiwan.
The US governments job is to look after the interests of the nation and its citizens. Anyone else is on the entire planet is riding coat tails. Having left family behind the iron curtain I understand the problem very well and have a lot of sympathy. However, my sympathy doesnt justify the sacrifice of American lives. If that makes me an asshole then so be it.
About the only folks who would take the NK for Taiwan deal are Obama and Kerry. Lets see. Third world economy with starving populace for a pretty much a first world economy.....HMMMM
The US governments job is to look after the interests of the nation and its citizens. Anyone else is on the entire planet is riding coat tails. Having left family behind the iron curtain I understand the problem very well and have a lot of sympathy. However, my sympathy doesnt justify the sacrifice of American lives. If that makes me an asshole then so be it.
About the only folks who would take the NK for Taiwan deal are Obama and Kerry. Lets see. Third world economy with starving populace for a pretty much a first world economy.....HMMMM
You got it backwards, I was suggesting China get NK in exchange for backing off of Taiwan. Also I would never advocate American lives be put in harms way to make sure people in NK are treated fairly, but as a political bargaining chip I think it is a worthwhile goal in a negotiation with China.
You got it backwards, I was suggesting China get NK in exchange for backing off of Taiwan. Also I would never advocate American lives be put in harms way to make sure people in NK are treated fairly, but as a political bargaining chip I think it is a worthwhile goal in a negotiation with China.
LOL I got your point. What I was trying to say is that nobody in China is as stupid as Obama or Kerry to take that kind of bassackwards deal.
LOL I got your point. What I was trying to say is that nobody in China is as stupid as Obama or Kerry to take that kind of bassackwards deal.
Oh I actually got it backwards. Now I'm following.
Outlander Systems
04-10-17, 14:33
CHICOMs send 150k troops to the NORK border:
China 'deploys 150,000 troops to deal with possible North Korean refugees over fears Trump may strike Kim Jong-un following missile attack on Syria'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4399076/China-deploys-150-000-troops-North-Korea-border.html
I wonder if KJU is watching CNN, and realizing GEOTUS doesn't play **** **** games...06APR17
"Oh Comrade China to Protect us!"
NEEWP Comrade China got own problems. Keep your ass over there. Cha-chack
#BuildTheWall
#MakeDMZGreatAgain
Outlander Systems
04-10-17, 14:54
LOL! Well played, Sir.
The Mar-A-Lago Agreement States that we'll take care of Kim Jong Ding Dong, but China has to repay us for what we spent with the recovered NORK Coal Briquettes and Non-Knit Men's Coats...
"Oh Comrade China to Protect us!"
NEEWP Comrade China got own problems. Keep your ass over there. Cha-chack
#BuildTheWall
#MakeDMZGreatAgain
Where are these refugees supposed come from? North Korea? The same North Korea that has media blackouts and controls all the media? Those folks haven't a clue what's going on unless Dear Supreme Leader tells them. He tells them all the time we are about to go to war with them, so I don't imagine they get amped up every time he says it.
I can see why China may be a tad rattled, but I assure you in NK it's business as usual.....
CHICOMs send 150k troops to the NORK border:
China 'deploys 150,000 troops to deal with possible North Korean refugees over fears Trump may strike Kim Jong-un following missile attack on Syria'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4399076/China-deploys-150-000-troops-North-Korea-border.html
Two schools of thought on this:
1) It is a show of support for North Korea, i.e. if the Yankee dogs attack we are right here for you.
2) It is to keep unwanted Nork refugees out of China if the balloon goes up.
Maybe a combination of both? I highly doubt China would forcibly remove fat-boy. Ain't seein' it.
Doc Safari
04-10-17, 15:04
Two schools of thought on this:
1) It is a show of support for North Korea, i.e. if the Yankee dogs attack we are right here for you.
2) It is to keep unwanted Nork refugees out of China if the balloon goes up.
Maybe a combination of both? I highly doubt China would forcibly remove fat-boy. Ain't seein' it.
Both. I think China likes North Korea to be the barking dog in its yard, but it doesn't want that dog to shit on its rug, either.
Outlander Systems
04-10-17, 15:06
Both hypotheses are valid.
I don't think they would, either.
I'd laugh my sacks off if GEOTUS told Xi, "Take care of Dim Dong N00b, or you get tariffed."
Two schools of thought on this:
1) It is a show of support for North Korea, i.e. if the Yankee dogs attack we are right here for you.
2) It is to keep unwanted Nork refugees out of China if the balloon goes up.
Maybe a combination of both? I highly doubt China would forcibly remove fat-boy. Ain't seein' it.
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 15:06
You got it backwards, I was suggesting China get NK in exchange for backing off of Taiwan. Also I would never advocate American lives be put in harms way to make sure people in NK are treated fairly, but as a political bargaining chip I think it is a worthwhile goal in a negotiation with China.
China has zero interest in ruling North Korea. They don't want to feed the thousands of Norks who have fled to China already, let alone feed the millions of Norks they'd have to care for if they were "given" - or took - North Korea.
Where are these refugees supposed come from? North Korea? The same North Korea that has media blackouts and controls all the media? Those folks haven't a clue what's going on unless Dear Supreme Leader tells them. He tells them all the time we are about to go to war with them, so I don't imagine they get amped up every time he says it.
I can see why China may be a tad rattled, but I assure you in NK it's business as usual.....
North Koreans leave their country by heading north to China, in addition to south to South Korea. So if North Korea suddenly finds itself in a conflict, yes, there will be lots of North Koreans fleeing north to China (the alternative being to flee south directly into the guns of the DPRK, RoK, and US).
ETA: The only conceivable way China accepts a unified Korea is if the North is subject to a multi-national peacekeeping force, with China and China alone patrolling everything in Korea along their border and an agreement from the US to not construct any bases nor station any troops in the former DPRK - with a new DMZ being constructed south of the Yalu River, inside Korean territory and an international agreement limiting the number of RoK troops who can be stationed on the Korean side. The Chinese would probably also demand that all refugees from North Korea currently living in the PRC be repatriated and that the RoK and US pay to feed and house any/all NorK refugees fleeing to China.
North Koreans leave their country by heading north to China, in addition to south to South Korea. So if North Korea suddenly finds itself in a conflict, yes, there will be lots of North Koreans fleeing north to China (the alternative being to flee south directly into the guns of the DPRK, RoK, and US).
Yeah, if there is a conflict. But Fatty McButterpants have been telling his people for years there's a conflict, that's why they are always at a heightened state of alert. It'll literally take half of the capital to be blow up before they (citizens) realize something is happening.
Supposing for a hot minute China sends troops to the border, it'll be crickets (unless we, you know, actually do something).
Moose-Knuckle
04-11-17, 04:34
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3946/33158338193_ae47c7d3c0_b.jpg
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 08:01
Best Korea send many Taekwondo master if Imperialist Yankee come to take the Kimchee.
https://youtu.be/WKR_gC_yBPU
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 09:29
Making a guess.
Best Korea fires test missile on 15APR17.
US Navy smacks it down like a bug.
Kim Jong Ding Dong wets his diaper.
Making a guess.
Best Korea fires test missile on 15APR17.
US Navy smacks it down like a bug.
Kim Jong Ding Dong wets his diaper.
Well we DO have the capability to do that.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 09:37
It would be very humiliating, folks, believe me.
Well we DO have the capability to do that.
The dog is barking again:
"Our revolutionary Best Korea army is keenly watching every move by enemy elements with our nuclear sight focused on the U.S. invasionary bases not only in South Korea and the Pacific operation theatre but also in the U.S. mainland," it said.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/north-korea-state-media-warns-100014004.html
Dennis Rodman will smooth thos all over. The Norks consider him a god.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 12:47
China's laying down the law now:
China has a bottom line that it will protect at all costs, that is, the security and stability of northeast China,” the report stated. “If the bottom line is touched, China will employ all means available including the military means to strike back … By that time, it is not an issue of discussion whether China acquiesces in the US’ blows, but the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) will launch attacks [on] DPRK nuclear facilities on its own.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1iKYl9EZJQQJ:english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-04/07/content_7554618.htm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/11/china-might-bomb-north-korea-if-it-crosses-beijings-bottom-line/
China's laying down the law now:
China has a bottom line that it will protect at all costs, that is, the security and stability of northeast China,” the report stated. “If the bottom line is touched, China will employ all means available including the military means to strike back … By that time, it is not an issue of discussion whether China acquiesces in the US’ blows, but the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) will launch attacks [on] DPRK nuclear facilities on its own.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1iKYl9EZJQQJ:english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-04/07/content_7554618.htm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/11/china-might-bomb-north-korea-if-it-crosses-beijings-bottom-line/
Good, that's win-win for us. We don't overly alienate China and they reign in fat-boy (like they should, it's a monster they helped create by decades of ambivalence).
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 13:08
If true, the first linked article is illustrative.
China's pissed about the location of the NORKs testing. It would be like Mexico testing nukes in Los Trios.
Good, that's win-win for us. We don't overly alienate China and they reign in fat-boy (like they should, it's a monster they helped create by decades of ambivalence).
China has grown increasingly distant from NK because of NK's nuclear ambitions. It would thrill me to see them step on Fat Boy's throat.
Surely there has to be someone in the Trump administration with knowledge of China and their concept of "saving face". Just read on FOX News website where Trump had been tweeting something to the effect of "China better fix it or we will" (paraphrasing). That sounds too much like an ultimatum for a society obsessed with saving face.
You know, the old "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing. There can be a veiled threat in there, but phrased much better to coerce cooperation. Something along the lines of "You know, we really value our friendship with China, and want it to continue. As our friend we hope you will be willing to help with controlling North Korea, as you are the country with the most influence on them. If you are not willing to help us then we will have no choice but to respond to any North Korean aggression in kind, and that means nuclear weapons if ever it comes down to that. So we respectfully ask for your assistance in this matter."
Not only are the Chinese keen on saving face, but they are fiercely nationalistic. Combine those two with the totalitarian regime in Beijing and the whole freaking nation would balk at a perceived threat. A veiled one put more sublimely, coated in sugar, could allow them a face saving way to indeed lock the heels of fat-boy without it looking like they knuckled under to our demands.
Surely there has to be someone in the Trump administration with knowledge of China and their concept of "saving face". Just read on FOX News website where Trump had been tweeting something to the effect of "China better fix it or we will" (paraphrasing). That sounds too much like an ultimatum for a society obsessed with saving face.
You know, the old "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" thing. There can be a veiled threat in there, but phrased much better to coerce cooperation. Something along the lines of "You know, we really value our friendship with China, and want it to continue. As our friend we hope you will be willing to help with controlling North Korea, as you are the country with the most influence on them. If you are not willing to help us then we will have no choice but to respond to any North Korean aggression in kind, and that means nuclear weapons if ever it comes down to that. So we respectfully ask for your assistance in this matter."
Not only are the Chinese keen on saving face, but they are fiercely nationalistic. Combine those two with the totalitarian regime in Beijing and the whole freaking nation would balk at a perceived threat. A veiled one put more sublimely, coated in sugar, could allow them a face saving way to indeed lock the heels of fat-boy without it looking like they knuckled under to our demands.
I agree. I wonder how much of China's response (if those articles are accurate) is "well, hell, if the US does something, we'll definitely be involved, so let's prepare" or "screw NK, and their goats...if there's gonna be a shootin' war, we're all-in," versus "well, the US is backing us into this...."
Seems to me that backdoor pressure on China, and China on NK in turn, would be very helpful here, and without us ever knowing if POTUS had any influence at all.....
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 17:43
China disses NORK coal shipment; buys US Coal instead.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/11/china-rejects-north-korean-coal-shipments-opts-for-us-supplies-instead.html
#MAGA
SeriousStudent
04-11-17, 18:38
China disses NORK coal shipment; buys US Coal instead.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/11/china-rejects-north-korean-coal-shipments-opts-for-us-supplies-instead.html
#MAGA
That is a very, very big deal.
Thanks for the link.
Something along the lines of "You know, we really value our friendship with China, and want it to continue. As our friend we hope you will be willing to help with controlling North Korea, as you are the country with the most influence on them. If you are not willing to help us then we will have no choice but to respond to any North Korean aggression in kind, and that means nuclear weapons if ever it comes down to that. So we respectfully ask for your assistance in this matter."
I don't think Trump would ever say something like that.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 18:48
Absolutely, brother.
One might even call it a, YUUUUGE deal.
That is a very, very big deal.
Thanks for the link.
That is a very, very big deal.
Thanks for the link.
A game changer really. NK had it's utility to China but now more the proverbial albatross around their neck and it appears they are ready to cut them lose. Without Chinese backup, NK is nothing and never has been. They exist for no other reason than China being their big bother against 'imperialist aggression' and such. The Chinese seem to be making it very clear what side they prefer to be on, and who the real valued partner is in current times. NK is a cold war relic and of little value to the Chinese, at least when compared to what they'd stand to lose by not backing the US. This move seems to say NK is on it's own to fight it's own battles, figuratively and perhaps literally.
SeriousStudent
04-11-17, 18:58
I don't think Trump would ever say something like that.
I would politely disagree. I think it's a very easy thing for President Trump to say to President Xi. And I am willing to wager a cold beverage he probably said it to him in Florida last week.
"Friends help friends. Your influence would be appreciated. I would take this as a helpful thing."
I could be wrong, but I honestly think a chat like that likely happened.
Why do you think it would not have? I am curious, and genuinely interested in your thoughts. Thank you.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 18:58
I would like to think that Xi is rational and reasonable enough to understand that Best Korea is an anachronistic throwback at best.
Best Korea is absolutely, completely worthless on the world stage. If the Dear Leader lineage can be destroyed, and an integrated Korea the result, the region would be better off.
The precedent is E/W Germany, pre and post unification.
Best Korea does nothing to enhance China's economic and trade activities.
SeriousStudent
04-11-17, 19:00
Absolutely, brother.
One might even call it a, YUUUUGE deal.
Yes, it is yuge. It's likely one of the few sources of foreign currency for North Korea. Especially if China agrees to pay them in US dollars, rather than yuan.
Other than missile and nuclear technology, I am not aware of a large export market for their good or services.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 19:02
To put it into perspective, and I joked avout it earlier in the thread, NK's two largest exports are Coal and Non-Knit Men's Jackets.
For China to outright diss coal shipments en-route is massive, and a tremendous bitch-slapping to Pork Chop Un.
SeriousStudent
04-11-17, 19:10
I am curious about hydroelectric power. All the web searches I found indicated that North Korea was buying power generating equipment from China. They were working on a joint project to build a power-generating dam on the Yalu, which separates their countries.
That would be another interesting thing to watch.
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 19:14
Absolutely. Anything indicative of a breakdown in historical activities and relations will determine a MLCOA.
From what I understand, the Chinese leadership is pissed over the assassination of Kim Jong Nam, as well as the recent monkeyshines on their border.
Best Korea does nothing to enhance China's economic and trade activities.
And probably brings more US military power to the region than a unified and sane Korea would.
Absolutely. Anything indicative of a breakdown in historical activities and relations will determine a MLCOA.
From what I understand, the Chinese leadership is pissed over the assassination of Kim Jong Nam, as well as the recent monkeyshines on their border.
I think the Chinese are in a bit of a pickle. They like the buffer state, but don't like the dipshit running it. That is to say, they don't want a unified Korean Peninsula under a capitalist rule, especially since we would use the opportunity to park some nukes right up on their border. At the same time, they have to control their monkey who at any moment could start throwing shit in the fan.
RetroRevolver77
04-11-17, 23:59
I think the Chinese are in a bit of a pickle. They like the buffer state, but don't like the dipshit running it. That is to say, they don't want a unified Korean Peninsula under a capitalist rule, especially since we would use the opportunity to park some nukes right up on their border. At the same time, they have to control their monkey who at any moment could start throwing shit in the fan.
Chinese are on board with the Trump train. They know damn well that little Mao has to go and they have the fever for more capitalist money. So they will just shore up the border, kill everyone trying to cross and let us take their little rabid dog out to pasture to put one behind the ear.
7n6
I think the Chinese are in a bit of a pickle. They like the buffer state, but don't like the dipshit running it. That is to say, they don't want a unified Korean Peninsula under a capitalist rule, especially since we would use the opportunity to park some nukes right up on their border. At the same time, they have to control their monkey who at any moment could start throwing shit in the fan.
Every since NK went nuclear, China has been drifting further away from them. They absolutely do not want Dear Leader in power, but what to do? And they have not minced words, either, that if NK looks like it's going to do anything nuclear, NK will cease to exist.
I don't think they care if Korea is unified. I don't think we'd park our nukes there; we don't need to. Not with the subs we have that cruise that area.
I would politely disagree. I think it's a very easy thing for President Trump to say to President Xi. And I am willing to wager a cold beverage he probably said it to him in Florida last week.
"Friends help friends. Your influence would be appreciated. I would take this as a helpful thing."
I could be wrong, but I honestly think a chat like that likely happened.
Why do you think it would not have? I am curious, and genuinely interested in your thoughts. Thank you.
True, I have heard Trump's demeanor in private is not at all like his public persona.
I just hope Trump holds off on any military action against NK until the Chinese have had a shot at reigning them in. That is truly our best hope for a peaceful solution, at least peaceful as far as U.S. involvement is concerned.
Outlander Systems
04-12-17, 09:34
@ABNAK
Shooting from the hip, but I'm starting to think we're staging up, and waiting for Pork Chop Un to get on some dumb shit.
From that point, he'll essentially have put the noose on his own neck.
@ABNAK
Shooting from the hip, but I'm starting to think we're staging up, and waiting for Pork Chop Un to get on some dumb shit.
From that point, he'll essentially have put the noose on his own neck.
Let's hope China deals with him first.
I think the Chinese are in a bit of a pickle. They like the buffer state, but don't like the dipshit running it. That is to say, they don't want a unified Korean Peninsula under a capitalist rule, especially since we would use the opportunity to park some nukes right up on their border. At the same time, they have to control their monkey who at any moment could start throwing shit in the fan.
Perhaps one part of the deal for a unified capitalist ruled Korea would be removal of nukes parked on their border. The Chinese would end up with an excellent trading partner and no nukes in point blank range (at least in Korea) and some deal struck on time scale for withdrawal of US troops, non aggression pacts, etc. Seems far more gains than losses for the Chinese if they played it right.
I think the Chinese know NK needs to go, and for their own benefit at this point.
@ABNAK
Shooting from the hip, but I'm starting to think we're staging up, and waiting for Pork Chop Un to get on some dumb shit.
From that point, he'll essentially have put the noose on his own neck.
Maybe setting NK up for a gulf of tonkin deal.
Maybe setting NK up for a gulf of tonkin deal.
Oh God Will, really? Here we go again with "warning shots" and such......;)
I'll say this: if the Norks harass the U.S. Navy and we pop a few "warning shots" across the bow to warn them they will have it coming if they attack as a result. Aggressive actions are the guy who starts it first, and that doesn't necessarily mean who shot first. Shot with hostile intent, as in meaning to hit, yes. Shot as a warning when you were acting like an ass? No.
That said, the Norks WILL kick off a full-fledged war if we attempt to take out their missile sites or nuke production facilities, like across-the-DMZ type shit. Hopefully Trump treads carefully. Let the Chinese have their chance at reigning fat-boy in, seems like they are fed up with his shit-stirring.
There are no good options, just several sucky ones.
https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/how-north-korea-would-retaliate
SeriousStudent
04-12-17, 20:44
True, I have heard Trump's demeanor in private is not at all like his public persona.
I just hope Trump holds off on any military action against NK until the Chinese have had a shot at reigning them in. That is truly our best hope for a peaceful solution, at least peaceful as far as U.S. involvement is concerned.
Agreed. China has Kim over for whiskey and cigars, and he "suddenly falls ill."
Much wailing and lamentations on state radio, and then some general with a suitably enlarged bank balance takes over. Nukes get traded for food and heating oil. Cue the music and closing credits.
Grand58742
04-12-17, 21:12
Agreed. China has Kim over for whiskey and cigars, and he "suddenly falls ill."
Much wailing and lamentations on state radio, and then some general with a suitably enlarged bank balance takes over. Nukes get traded for food and heating oil. Cue the music and closing credits.
Considering their continual line of succession based on the Kim family, who exactly is next in line in that system? I figure they would make a power play for control and that open up the possibility of a civil war if a General or Generals took control.
Whiskey_Bravo
04-12-17, 21:38
Agreed. China has Kim over for whiskey and cigars, and he "suddenly falls ill."
Much wailing and lamentations on state radio, and then some general with a suitably enlarged bank balance takes over. Nukes get traded for food and heating oil. Cue the music and closing credits.
We can only hope. But I won't hold my breath.
Agreed. China has Kim over for whiskey and cigars, and he "suddenly falls ill."
Much wailing and lamentations on state radio, and then some general with a suitably enlarged bank balance takes over. Nukes get traded for food and heating oil. Cue the music and closing credits.
Another issue is that nobody wants a free NK much less a unified peninsula - especially the South. There are roughly 25M people in NK living in squalor. 25M people rushing to leave the North would be a disaster. The South can no more absorb that population than we could Mexico. If the Kim regime falls, the border will need to be maintained through force to bring about a gradual introduction to civilization.
China is also fearful of millions of NK refugees.
Eurodriver
04-12-17, 22:39
Another issue is that nobody wants a free NK much less a unified peninsula - especially the South. There are roughly 25M people in NK living in squalor. 25M people rushing to leave the North would be a disaster. The South can no more absorb that population than we could Mexico. If the Kim regime falls, the border will need to be maintained through force to bring about a gradual introduction to civilization.
I have met West Germans who are STILL angry at East Germans for this exact reason.
I have met West Germans who are STILL angry at East Germans for this exact reason.
My au pair is from Heidelberg. Her family considers much of the East to be a land of "rednecks." The unification of Germany seems to share a lot of similarities with the Reconstruction Era and post-CIvil War South in that the Eastern part of Germany still lags behind the West culturally and economically. I read somewhere that the US South didn't "recover" until the 1960s and some say it is still in recovery. Korea will also likely take a century to heal; longer if there is a real war.
I dont think the South is a good comparison to East Germany. A lot of business and manufacturing here. Chances are, your VW was made in the South.
Even at civil war's end...Americans were still American. They played buck-buck games but I defy you to find an overall smoother transition. If we did away with all Civil War history and landmarks....people today wouldnt believe a war ever happened.
Same can NOT be said for Eastern Europe (ie Balkans/East Germany).
Their economics and govt were pretty strictly tied to the USSR. When that went to shit (27-28 years ago) they relied on West Germany but having had friends in work and school from East Europe they all have one thing in common:
They are both culturally dependent upon yet simultaneously paranoid of Government.
The older ones hate all govt. the ones born tail end seem to think "It just wasn't done right" One of the biggest Hillary supporters I know of was born at the aas end and only knows what they read in a book and doesnt listen to their parents who were kinda in a "last chopper out of Saigon" type of deal. A baby.
Meanwhile I had relatives stationed there and saw the wall come down on TV. ABC News. I remember my teacher saying "Kids, You saw history on TV. Our maps are out of date"
The problem is no different from our own blighted inner cities (most of which are in Union territory).
They hate the government but want a handout. They cant go back but have no interest in moving forward. So they just do nothing with themselves and blame other people.
This is how Democrats keep the "Urban" vote. "You are all victims, vote for me".
Kinda sad. But with the Media losing grasp of tge Narrative, more and more people are like "I keep voting Democrat, yet nothing changes"
There are still relatively young East Germans who ble either the West or the USSR for their personal lack of wherewithal.
And when NK collapses, it will be interesting. I do believe North Korea will indeed collapse in my lifetime.
In the 50s, yeah they had some juice. In the Cold War it was yet another place America "had" to be.
But now? Nobody wants them, they have no strategic worth, and even if they wanted a peaceful, non-Communist reunification; It wouldn't happen.
They have made themselves the Cabrini Green of the world.
They'll either have a revolt or just plain go out of business. It'll be interesting to see.
JMHO
My au pair is from Heidelberg. Her family considers much of the East to be a land of "rednecks." The unification of Germany seems to share a lot of similarities with the Reconstruction Era and post-CIvil War South in that the Eastern part of Germany still lags behind the West culturally and economically. I read somewhere that the US South didn't "recover" until the 1960s and some say it is still in recovery. Korea will also likely take a century to heal; longer if there is a real war.
So....an au pair, eh? ;)
The divide between the two Germanies was real....the west thoroughly entrenched in the modern era, the east with clothing, cars, electronics about two decades behind. Plus with the general world news blackout they had, they emerged after the unification a bit...well, behind.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-13-17, 08:32
The relative wealth difference is higher the Germanys, but the social cohesiveness is higher. With South Korea, China, Russia and Japan not wanting to deal with massive movements of people, I could see a lot of aid. Wouldn't take much aid. The whole economy is $25 billion with $4b in foreign trade. Take out military spending and add a couple billion per country and you'd improve the status quo. Un-programming all those people is going to take a long time.
So....an au pair, eh? ;).
Yeah, it's our first year. A little awkward at first when people think that a 19-year old is my wife. However, it is about the only way for working people to find affordable childcare while working unconventional schedules.
Yeah, it's our first year. A little awkward at first when people think that a 19-year old is my wife. However, it is about the only way for working people to find affordable childcare while working unconventional schedules.
Okay, I'm gonna be a bit cheeky here.
What qualifies her to be an Au Pair? She better dress up everyday and fly in on an umbrella and sing catchy songs at intermitten points of the day while teaching the kids to do suckass chores and actually think they are having fun.
Otherwise you have a Nanny, bucko.
If she's a fat girl in sweats and smells like hot dog water and wears kitten sweatshirts with glitter then she is a babysitter.
If she gets around all glittered up in heels and hoop earrings then she is a hot babysitter. Just like on Cinemax and Lifetime. Could be a great and daring thing or she might take you hostage while sniffing your shirt and threatening to kill you with a butcher knife. It all depends on how much she looks like Alicia Silverstone.
:p
But seriously, if you get someone who cares about your kids thats a groovy thing. I know odd hours too well, bro. For some years there people actually thought I was a vampire. Kinda glad I have no kids as it would've sucked for them not to get to hang with me
Okay, I'm gonna be a bit cheeky here.
What qualifies her to be an Au Pair? She better dress up everyday and fly in on an umbrella and sing catchy songs at intermitten points of the day while teaching the kids to do suckass chores and actually think they are having fun.
Otherwise you have a Nanny, bucko.
If she's a fat girl in sweats and smells like hot dog water and wears kitten sweatshirts with glitter then she is a babysitter.
If she gets around all glittered up in heels and hoop earrings then she is a hot babysitter. Just like on Cinemax and Lifetime. Could be a great and daring thing or she might take you hostage while sniffing your shirt and threatening to kill you with a butcher knife. It all depends on how much she looks like Alicia Silverstone.
:p
But seriously, if you get someone who cares about your kids thats a groovy thing. I know odd hours too well, bro. For some years there people actually thought I was a vampire. Kinda glad I have no kids as it would've sucked for them not to get to hang with me
An au pair (English pronunciation: /oʊˈpɛər/; plural: au pairs) is a domestic assistant from a foreign country working for, and living as part of, a host family. Typically, au pairs take on a share of the family's responsibility for childcare as well as some housework, and receive a monetary allowance for personal use. Au pair arrangements are subject to government restrictions which specify an age range usually from mid-late teens to mid to late twenties; some countries explicitly limit the arrangement to females.
I don't think Mary Poppins would qualify.
RetroRevolver77
04-14-17, 00:56
I have absolutely nothing to lose. Please draft me to fight the ****ing communist piles of shit.
Outlander Systems
04-14-17, 08:42
Hope you ****ers got some food, and contingency comms:
"Amid warnings that North Korea and Iran have plans to take out parts of the U.S. electric grid through a cyber attack or atmospheric nuclear blast, the Pentagon is taking steps to both protect the nation's communications and power lifeline.
The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency has charged BAE Systems to map a system that can detect a cyber attack and gin up an alternative communications network for military and civilian use if the grid is fried, according to Defense Systems, the online newsletter.
Former CIA Director James Woolsey has been warning for years that the grid is extremely vulnerable and recently the Pentagon, and some states, have taken the warning seriously. Woolsey and former EMP Commission chief of staff Peter Vincent Pry have pointed a finger at North Korea, which is now threatening the U.S."
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/getting-ready-pentagon-to-protect-electric-grid-from-massive-attack/article/2620280
Realtime Bird-Tracking KMS-3-2:
http://www.satflare.com/track.asp?q=39026#TOP
Realtime Bird-Tracking KMS-4:
http://www.satflare.com/track.asp?q=41332
North Korea Threat:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/14/north-korea-missile-strike-remains-a-real-threat/
How North Korea Could Kill 90% of Americans:
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/defense/326094-how-north-korea-could-kill-up-to-90-percent-of-americans-at-any
"In February and March of 2015, former senior national security officials of the Reagan and Clinton administrations warned that North Korea should be regarded as capable of delivering by satellite a small nuclear warhead, specially designed to make a high-altitude electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attack against the United States. According to the Congressional EMP Commission, a single warhead delivered by North Korean satellite could blackout the national electric grid and other life-sustaining critical infrastructures for over a year—killing 9 of 10 Americans by starvation and societal collapse.
Two North Korean satellites, the KMS-3 and KMS-4, presently orbit over the U.S. on trajectories consistent with surprise EMP attack.
Why do the press and public officials ignore or under-report these facts? Perhaps no administration wants to acknowledge that North Korea is an existential threat on their watch."
- James Woolsey
Hope you ****ers got some food, and contingency comms:
It is my understanding that an EMP or attempted EMP, because of the damage they could cause, would be regarded as a nuclear-level threat and responded to with nukes.
Okay, I'm gonna be a bit cheeky here.
What qualifies her to be an Au Pair? She better dress up everyday and fly in on an umbrella and sing catchy songs at intermitten points of the day while teaching the kids to do suckass chores and actually think they are having fun.
Otherwise you have a Nanny, bucko.
If she's a fat girl in sweats and smells like hot dog water and wears kitten sweatshirts with glitter then she is a babysitter.
If she gets around all glittered up in heels and hoop earrings then she is a hot babysitter. Just like on Cinemax and Lifetime. Could be a great and daring thing or she might take you hostage while sniffing your shirt and threatening to kill you with a butcher knife. It all depends on how much she looks like Alicia Silverstone.
:p
But seriously, if you get someone who cares about your kids thats a groovy thing. I know odd hours too well, bro. For some years there people actually thought I was a vampire. Kinda glad I have no kids as it would've sucked for them not to get to hang with me
Au Pairs have a J-1 Visa and must meet certain education, age, and housing requirements.
My au pair is from a small city in Germany and is only 19. Prior to coming to live with us she had only seen guns carried by police. Now, we have "German Day" at the range. She prefers my wife's VP9 to our PPQ. She also thinks that my MKE is an abortion compared to my SP5K...
A satellite EMP attack would essentially be suicide for Dear Leader of the Norks.
Such an attack could cause regional issues, but the nature of EMP and the physics of the inverse Square law make a nationwide event pretty much impossible. It would take dozens of devices. And since any single device would be considered a nuclear attack, North Korea would be a smoking Wasteland.
The short version is there is an optimum height to get the EMP effect. Much lower, you don't get the full effect and the geographic area is smaller. Too high and inverse Square law reduces the energy so you don't get the EMP effect even though it covers a larger geographic area.
Even a suicide NORK EMP attack would be a really bad day for the impacted area, but it would be more like a large hurricane than some apocalyptic event. We've had geographic areas out of power and communications before that were similar in size to what an EMP event would cause.
Just keep the pretend mbitrs in an ammo can in the basement and you'll be fine. I'll drive over in my completely non-electrical Diesel and bring you some water from my pond.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-14-17, 09:13
Yeah, it's our first year. A little awkward at first when people think that a 19-year old is my wife. However, it is about the only way for working people to find affordable childcare while working unconventional schedules.
The awkward part is when the au pair becomes the 2nd wife. I assume nothing at my kids pick up at school.
It is my understanding that an EMP or attempted EMP, because of the damage they could cause, would be regarded as a nuclear-level threat and responded to with nukes.
If EMPs wer soo easy and fool proof, no one would concentrate on making direct impact nukes, they'd just make EMPs. If one EMP could take out the US, having ten of those would be a credible national threat, even with missile defense.
Outlander Systems
04-14-17, 09:18
300 miles is, IIRC, optimal.
The NORKSATs are in LEO, so there's that.
The short version is there is an optimum height to get the EMP effect. Much lower, you don't get the full effect and the geographic area is smaller. Too high and inverse Square law reduces the energy so you don't get the EMP effect even though it covers a larger geographic area.
RetroRevolver77
04-14-17, 09:24
A satellite EMP attack would essentially be suicide for Dear Leader of the Norks.
Such an attack could cause regional issues, but the nature of EMP and the physics of the inverse Square law make a nationwide event pretty much impossible. It would take dozens of devices. And since any single device would be considered a nuclear attack, North Korea would be a smoking Wasteland.
The short version is there is an optimum height to get the EMP effect. Much lower, you don't get the full effect and the geographic area is smaller. Too high and inverse Square law reduces the energy so you don't get the EMP effect even though it covers a larger geographic area.
Even a suicide NORK EMP attack would be a really bad day for the impacted area, but it would be more like a large hurricane than some apocalyptic event. We've had geographic areas out of power and communications before that were similar in size to what an EMP event would cause.
Just keep the pretend mbitrs in an ammo can in the basement and you'll be fine. I'll drive over in my completely non-electrical Diesel and bring you some water from my pond.
If they had an EMP in space would it take out all our triangulation satellites? I mean we could still drive a nuke over there.
If they had an EMP in space would it take out all our triangulation satellites? I mean we could still drive a nuke over there.
That would be a bad hair day for sure, as all the commuters could not use Waze and Google maps to get to work!
Pretty sure icbm's don't depend on GPS. But others probably know more. Even things like tomahawks and bombers utilize parallel systems like inertial navigation systems so they are not totally dependent on GPS.
From memory the original tomahawks were totally INS based. They are much more sophisticated now, but with the advent of GPS spoofing you pretty much guarantee there are backups.
Joking aside, a plausible EMP device over DC or NYC would be a really really bad day, but it would not trigger Mad Max societal collapse.
Joking aside, a plausible EMP device over DC or NYC would be a really really bad day, but it would not trigger Mad Max societal collapse.
"He slowly gets back up off the couch to put the rifle and PC back in the safe...he is awash in feelings of disappointment..."
300 miles is, IIRC, optimal.
The NORKSATs are in LEO, so there's that.
Apparently 40km is optimal for a small devices like they expect from EMP events. With a significant damage (50% of peak pulse strength) radius of about 400 kilometers.
Start going higher and the size of the device has to grow pretty much exponentially to get the same affect. Far beyond what would be reasonable to hide in a satellite. Or presumably be within the nork's capability. (Though well within Russia's capabilities). But the physics of the inverse Square law and tangent radius of the earth apply.
Back to the icbm's, I forgot that they often have Stellar / Celestial navigation as well. And many current generation systems also use radar-based terrain matching for their final homing. But at their heart, they are ballistic devices. They apparently got 300 mile accuracy before inertial navigation. With inertial and Stellar were getting 300 meter accuracy. With GPS updates and terrain matching are getting 300 feet accuracy or better
"He slowly gets back up off the couch to put the rifle and PC back in the safe...he is awash in feelings of disappointment..."
Go park the "last of the V-yate Intercepturs". And make sure to lube and adjust the bearing on your knee brace!
Eurodriver
04-14-17, 10:22
"He slowly gets back up off the couch to put the rifle and PC back in the safe...he is awash in feelings of disappointment..."
I laughed.
Au Pairs have a J-1 Visa and must meet certain education, age, and housing requirements.
My au pair is from a small city in Germany and is only 19. Prior to coming to live with us she had only seen guns carried by police. Now, we have "German Day" at the range. She prefers my wife's VP9 to our PPQ. She also thinks that my MKE is an abortion compared to my SP5K...
I see. I was just cutting a shine with you anyways.
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
I feel better now. I have it out of my system
I see. I was just cutting a shine with you anyways.
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
I feel better now. I have it out of my system
Lol....
Can we get some pics?
Of the range day,
obviously.
🙃
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Things getting very hot on the Korean peninsula. Has Trump made his red line with NK over nuclear testing? Is that being trumped up (pun intended) by the media? Obviously saber rattling taking place by sending ships, but it's being presented that Trump et al have stated specifically that a nuke or ICBM test would result in military action, but I'm not seeing specifics. China cancelled some flights to NK claiming lack of demand, but most suspect a message being sent NK is on it's own unless it tones down the drive for nukes and threats to attack US, etc.
More:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-team-braces-for-north-korea-event/ar-BBzQvUy?li=BBnb7Kz
Pence is still going to Seoul so it can't be all that bad, yet.
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SeriousStudent
04-14-17, 19:55
Pence is still going to Seoul so it can't be all that bad, yet.
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The best fishermen always use live bait.
And I really hope I'm kidding about that, too. As in really, really, really hope.
The best fishermen always use live bait.
And I really hope I'm kidding about that, too. As in really, really, really hope. yeah, no kidding. All Trumpism aside, I see Pence as the adult supervision in the WH.
So NK did attempt to launch and like much of their junk, never got off the pad. Q is, would the US have actually intercepted had it lifted and would additional munitions sent? Was conflict averted because they suck at making rockets? It does appear NK intended to ignore the warning launching missiles and or testing nukes wouldn't be tolerated.
North Korean missile "blows up" on test launch as Pence heads for South
A North Korean missile "blew up almost immediately" on its test launch on Sunday, the U.S. Pacific Command said, hours before U.S. Vice President Mike Pence was due in the South for talks on the North's increasingly defiant arms program.
The failed launch from the east coast came a day after North Korea held a military parade in its capital, marking the birth anniversary of the state founder, in which what appeared to be new long-range ballistic missiles were on display.
Pence is due in Seoul at the start of a 10-day trip to Asia in what his aides said was a sign of the U.S. commitment to its ally in the face of rising tension over North Korea.
Cont:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-missile-idUSKBN17H0NL
Dist. Expert 26
04-15-17, 19:47
You know I'm starting to think some of the Nork scientists might be intentionally screwing this stuff up. They aren't trying anything groundbreaking here. It doesn't make sense that they can't get it right even once.
sevenhelmet
04-15-17, 20:01
You know I'm starting to think some of the Nork scientists might be intentionally screwing this stuff up. They aren't trying anything groundbreaking here. It doesn't make sense that they can't get it right even once.
I think it's a combination of things, but being threatened with point-blank-range antiaircraft fire or being poisoned (or having your family threatened) is probably a powerful motivation to get it right. That said, anyone smart enough to do it properly probably defected a long time ago. I would imagine educational and material limitations are what's holding them back.
Oh, and f*ck you Jimmy Carter.
So which NORK General goes in front of the AA gun this week?
So NK did attempt to launch and like much of their junk, never got off the pad.
I believe the Trump administration said they wouldn't use military action for a test of either a missile or a nuke device. They said they were going to rely on China to reign the NORKS in (for now). IMHO that is the best way forward unless things get really bad.
Averageman
04-15-17, 20:32
Kind of works out well and best for the NORK's doesn't it? Think about that for a minute.
Fat Boy looks defiant, has the will, just not the tech to make it happen.
US is happy, China and SKOR are happy, everyone save's face and no one is glowing.
Fat Boy is a giant chicken shit fraud who needed a way out and created one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJThMDLYM4
The world should take note. Norks especially.
Dist. Expert 26
04-15-17, 21:42
I think it's a combination of things, but being threatened with point-blank-range antiaircraft fire or being poisoned (or having your family threatened) is probably a powerful motivation to get it right. That said, anyone smart enough to do it properly probably defected a long time ago. I would imagine educational and material limitations are what's holding them back.
Oh, and f*ck you Jimmy Carter.
Some of them may not care anymore. Or have a grudge against the government, but keep it low key enough to get into a position where they can really do damage.
I mean if a few kids from West Virginia can do it, you'd think a nation-state could pull it off.
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