View Full Version : Syrian attack possibly imminent
44890
I hope this isn't true. Seems like a bad idea to me. I'm beginning to think we are being pushed into conflict with Russia. Thoughts?
Cagemonkey
04-06-17, 19:31
Agreed. Seems Trump sold out his Foreign Policy. The last Syrian Sarin Gas attack was a False Flag and so is this One. The White Helmets are Al Queda. This hole thing is BS. Pretty sad, as an America, I have to pray and hope that Putin puts these Psychopaths in Check Mate. Pure Insanity.
I am not in favor of military action (beyond what we are doing now) in Syria. Neither am I for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea. You do what you have to do no doubt and without hesitation, but starting it doesn't make the list.
And for those of us who don't know....Where is this info from? What's Periscope and who's Mike Cernovich
Never mind googled it
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 19:49
**** it.
Steamroll that bitch.
I'm all for winning WWIII while we can still pull off a hat trick.
Grand58742
04-06-17, 19:59
I'm torn on this one.
This is going to be a CF! It's not our job.
Fox News just reported we Tomahawked Syrian targets.
Tomahawk missiles are already landing. Check any of the major news network.
www.foxnews.com
www.abcnews.com
Can't say I'm thrilled about this. But hey the dems should love this.
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 20:26
This is doable.
Take down Assad, OIF style, COIN up on ISIS.
The trick is how to handle Iran...
Toyoland66
04-06-17, 20:35
Its happening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14IRDDnEPR4
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 20:39
I wonder if KJU is watching CNN, and realizing GEOTUS doesn't play **** **** games...
SomeOtherGuy
04-06-17, 20:40
#@$@%#^$%^@!#!$!@!#@!$!#@!!!
I voted for Trump mostly because Killary seemed like guaranteed war in Syria, leading to guaranteed nuclear war with Russia.
Now Trump has gone and done the same thing almost immediately. Over made-up reasons. Total crap.
Despite having voted for Trump, my support for him is now hovering just above zero, and likely heading to zero with the stupidity on the Obamacare "repeal" (which it isn't).
Here's hoping we aren't all breathing fallout in a week, or a month.
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 20:44
Or the US booty-slams Syria, skull-****s the NORKs, frightens Iran into submission, and the Russians realize they don't have the force-projection capabilities to wage war on the US, and China BTFO because without our Chinamart stores, their economy goes straight to shit.
You know.....they drew up actual SIOP scenarios based around this part of the world.
They did not end well.
I dont care if Assad personally poured bleach down schoolchildrens' throats.
This can get super heavy, super fast.
My concern is Russian, and Iranian response. I could care less about Assad or the Rebels, they can all die as far as I care. There are no good guys. We can't afford to be drawn into another middle eastern conflict, and certainly not with Russia. That won't end well for anyone. Then we gotta North Korea on top of all this that's going to need to be dealt with sooner or later. We need to pick our fights.
ThirdWatcher
04-06-17, 20:47
... We need to pick our fights.
+1 I couldn't agree more with you.
Oh you've gotta be shitting me. Have we STILL not learned that toppling secular middle-eastern dictators is a bad idea?
Interesting that China's Xi is chilling with POTUS this weekend
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 21:00
Assad's lost control dude.
I'm willing to wager REGIMEFOR is stretched so goddamned thin they've resorted to nbC attacks because that's all they've got left.
My concern is Russian, and Iranian response. I could care less about Assad or the Rebels, they can all die as far as I care. There are no good guys. We can't afford to be drawn into another middle eastern conflict, and certainly not with Russia. That won't end well for anyone. Then we gotta North Korea on top of all this that's going to need to be dealt with sooner or later. We need to pick our fights.
I could'nt with you more, The last thing I wanted to see is the U.S. getting drawn into Syria..Here we go, WWIII....and over what exactly? A nerve gas attack that no one is 100% sure who did what? I was hoping Trump had more sense than this..
Oh you've gotta be shitting me. Have we STILL not learned that toppling secular middle-eastern dictators is a bad idea?
I guess not..
Trump is officially a fag.
Didn't he recently say to let the Syrians decide who should run their country? Assad was taking care of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Why would Assad use chemical weapons against his own people?
Coal Dragger
04-06-17, 21:08
For ****'s sake relax.
Russia most likely isn't going to war with us because we tomahawked a Syrian airbase and did a few hundred dollars worth of damage. Putin just wants to be able to project force in the Mediterranean through Syrian ports, and air fields. I'd hope we're smart enough to not attack a field hosting a Russian Air Force squadron. I'd also hope the Russians are smart enough to not allow Syrians to store, or deploy chemical weapons from a base they are using.
This will not topple Bashar Al Assad. He'll keep doing what he do, just without using chemical weapons if he learns from this. We are totally fine with him killing, torturing, and oppressing his people by conventional methods. Sure we condemn it publicly, but not much beyond that.
We aren't invading freaking Syria. This will be roughly as effective as firing tomahawks at Osama Bin Laden's camp back in the late 90's. Feel good move designed to show we did something.
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 21:11
^Wut he said.
**** around, and GEOTUS will launch more Trumpahawk missiles at dat azz.
Calm thy breasts. We're still in a position to win WWIII bigly.
Russia ain't gonna do shit.
I could'nt with you more, The last thing I wanted to see is the U.S. getting drawn into Syria..Here we go, WWIII....and over what exactly? A nerve gas attack that no one is 100% sure who did what? I was hoping Trump had more sense than this..
It looks like you need a distraction. Here, play with this: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
It will make you feel better ;).
Grand58742
04-06-17, 21:19
^Wut he said.
**** around, and GEOTUS will launch more Trumpahawk missiles at dat azz.
Calm thy breasts. We're still in a position to win WWIII bigly.
Russia ain't gonna do shit.
Jesus, dude. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wins WWIII.
Nobody.
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 21:26
Howdy,
Russia won't do shit. What are they going to do? Ban imports of Colts? Sanction us?
Without us, China has no one to buy their cheap cheap.
HTH
Mike
Jesus, dude. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wins WWIII.
Nobody.
The only people that win WWIII are the lizard people. Don't let the lizard people win!
Jesus, dude. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wins WWIII.
Nobody.
Exactly, and we need to prepare for the nuclear fallout. Step one is to prepare your body for the coming radiation. Your thyroid is very radio-sensitive and can be protected from uptake by consuming iodine. The best source of iodine in your house is in table salt. So, started eating as much table salt as possible. You are going to need at least 6 cups in the next 24 hours. So, start now.
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 21:33
Howdy,
Sensei forgot to mention that you can get a sodium/iodine megadose by eating a traditional American diet. So, as you were.
HTH
Mike
Grand58742
04-06-17, 21:36
Exactly, and we need to prepare for the nuclear fallout. Step one is to prepare your body for the coming radiation. Your thyroid is very radio-sensitive and can be protected from uptake by consuming iodine. The best source of iodine in your house it the table salt. So, started eating as much table salt as possible. You are going to need at least 6 cups in the next 24 hours. So, start now.
Meh, my previous cancer tumor will get me anyway.
And I'm only about 20 miles (and downwind) of a primary target. Might as well crack open a Coors, give the dog a treat and enjoy the last few minutes of peace.
Grand58742
04-06-17, 21:38
Exactly, and we need to prepare for the nuclear fallout. Step one is to prepare your body for the coming radiation. Your thyroid is very radio-sensitive and can be protected from uptake by consuming iodine. The best source of iodine in your house it the table salt. So, started eating as much table salt as possible. You are going to need at least 6 cups in the next 24 hours. So, start now.
And the ammo is in the basement in sealed cans. If you want to claim dibs, you're welcome to come get it once the fallout stops.
Howdy,
Sensei forgot to mention that you can get a sodium/iodine megadose by eating a traditional American diet. So, as you were.
HTH
Mike
I wouldn't say that I forgot...;)
I think this was a bad move. The fact that John McCain and Lindsey Graham are praising the action confirms it. What a democrat,"it's for the children", bull crap excuse. Trump doesn't give a crap about about his promises and policy any more than those people that have been dying in Syria for the last 6 or 7 years. "Those babies" my ass.
The Russians are saying they were notified before the strike and the Syrians are saying possibly 2 dead. This could be Trump's way to show he's not a Russian stooge
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Outlander Systems
04-06-17, 21:44
LOL. You're too nice, dude.
I wouldn't say that I forgot...;)
Let's say I were a Hawk here....
At what point do we become over committed?
They will act like we "owe" them to take in more "refugees".
This could also radicalize it worse.
Part of me was hoping the Russians would East Berlin Syria.
This could go either way. I really dont know how I feel but my initial reaction is disapproval
FlyingHunter
04-06-17, 22:07
Perhaps I'm feeling my inner Rand Paul but I feel we are just entering a conflict with no way to win. I get the "feel good" of doing something for the poor children killed by the gas attack, but we need to abandon the old policies of perpetual intervention in other countries. The Trump line of "protecting our national interest" is hollow salesmanship.
Perhaps all this talk of the Nuclear Option tomorrow went to someone's head?
What? Too soon? Jeez...tough crowd.
You know a dark part of me sees "the children" as terrorists waiting to happen.
We have our own problems, I thought we were getting a break here.
I expect this will make Turkey a more interesting place soon.
OR.....it could be another Bill Clinton half-ass rocket launch, but at least he predicated that on a headjob from a fat girl. Trump has Melania and even if he had a side deal, I doubt she would care.
It looks like you need a distraction. Here, play with this: https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
It will make you feel better ;).
After working in several nuclear power plants, I'm well aware of what radiation can do.. As it is now, it seems that only one base was hit to make a point, if that gets the message across then fine. But, history shows us that this is'nt where this will end, the next few days should prove interesting. I'm taking up your reccommendation for iodine, I'm going to the store for some iodized table salt, you think 5 lbs will be enough? :p
If all we do is rotate old Tomahawk stock for fresher ones, I'm not overly concerned. Any entanglement beyond that? No.
wilson1911
04-06-17, 22:43
If you guys must know...when McCain was over there last month, he left a few gifts. The reason he is so happy, is that don fell for it...
Or the US booty-slams Syria, skull-****s the NORKs, frightens Iran into submission, and the Russians realize they don't have the force-projection capabilities to wage war on the US,
and China BTFO because without our Chinamart stores, their economy goes straight to shit.
This is being pushed by the same people/groups that back Hillary.
Removing Assad helps the House of Saud & Israel (peas in a pod). He is the only sane non-Islamist option. Period.
Removing Sadaam, Ghaddafi and Mubarak resulted in Islamists (not a coincidence).
This is a BAD move.
I expected far better from Trump. I am extremely disappointed. He is being played like a fiddle.
Gas and dead children are always what the deep state and the media manipulators resort to when they want war.
Oh you've gotta be shitting me. Have we STILL not learned that toppling secular middle-eastern dictators is a bad idea?
It is a good idea as far as the deep state, Saud and Israel are concerned.
Trump is officially a fag.
Didn't he recently say to let the Syrians decide who should run their country? Assad was taking care of Al Qaeda and ISIS. Why would Assad use chemical weapons against his own people?
Yep
Another case of a geopolitical player flexing it's muscle. Russia has been doing it for a while, now we do it. Nothing new. Some around the web are treating this like we're returning to an old phase of American meddling in things we shouldn't be involved with. Probably, but I saw it first hand when I started being sent to foreign operations beginning in October of 1983, and it didn't stop until I retired. We go places, blow up things and kill people; so do the Russians. I'm not going to wring my hands and hyperventilate over this. It's just another phase in the American experience that has been going on for a long time. When you're a Global Player, this is part of the game. The other players and adversaries do it as well.
Perhaps I'm feeling my inner Rand Paul but I feel we are just entering a conflict with no way to win. I get the "feel good" of doing something for the poor children killed by the gas attack, but we need to abandon the old policies of perpetual intervention in other countries. The Trump line of "protecting our national interest" is hollow salesmanship.
Trump got painted into a corner.
Do nothing = Just another "paper tiger" Obama who isn't willing to act.
Objectively, we need to be sidelined on this one. If we are fighting Assad, we are on the same side as ISIS and they keep plenty of kids and families around them for just this reason. Sadly all the "Russia hacked the election" bullshit put a damper on the Trump plan to green light the Russian rape of ISIS. I'm almost hoping it was ISIS that pulled the St. Petersburg attack and that's all the justification Putin needs to go full tilt boogie in Syria.
I would prefer we didn't destabalize another middle eastern country, but Assad seems intent on stepping over lines that are hard to ignore. Maybe this time we will just take out the key leadership but leave the government and military intact.
Nobody said war was simple.
Digital_Damage
04-06-17, 22:59
it was a busy day today... solemn tone. People are not sure what comes next.
Coal Dragger
04-06-17, 23:18
Probably nothing coming next. We did a few hundred dollars worth of damage to a Syrian airfield to make a point, and for Lord Cheeto to demonstrate he will be like a proverbial tornado in their shitty trailer park as needed.
This was the kind of symbolic strike one would expect a first world power to make in response to a chemical weapons attack carried out against third world denizens by a third world dictator. We have to demonstrate to the other shit heels, and to the world that we "care" enough to do something. Nothing more, nothing less.
Another case of a geopolitical player flexing it's muscle.
Bingo! I don't see this as anything more than that. I suspect the Russians don't either.
Trump got painted into a corner.
Do nothing = Just another "paper tiger" Obama who isn't willing to act.
Objectively, we need to be sidelined on this one. If we are fighting Assad, we are on the same side as ISIS and they keep plenty of kids and families around them for just this reason. Sadly all the "Russia hacked the election" bullshit put a damper on the Trump plan to green light the Russian rape of ISIS. I'm almost hoping it was ISIS that pulled the St. Petersburg attack and that's all the justification Putin needs to go full tilt boogie in Syria.
I would prefer we didn't destabalize another middle eastern country, but Assad seems intent on stepping over lines that are hard to ignore. Maybe this time we will just take out the key leadership but leave the government and military intact.
Nobody said war was simple.
What line did he step over?
There is no evidence that this "gas attack" was ordered by him, nor that there even was a gas attack.
Footage of some people making choking noises makes not substantive proof.
Assad is not dumb, and using gas like this when he is winning would be very dumb. A few conventional bombs would do more damage than this supposed "gas attack".
This reeks of black propaganda, and only serves the interests of (surprise!!!!) Saudi Arabia, Israel the deep state and all its sycophants.
As long as the deep state and its players make billions off of both sides in every conflict- there will ALWAYS be a reason to beat the war drums.
Too much money to be made- world leaders are just chess pieces.
Same shit, different day. Trump couldn't stop it if he wanted to or not. It's the world we live in and the current nature of our reality.
People need to truly wake up before anything will change. What a deep sleep most are in.
They know more about celebrities and reality TV than they do geopolitics.
It's the real zombie apocalypse- people just turn the TV and cell phone on and tune all the important stuff out. Most people turned themselves "off" long ago. It's easier to fvck up the world for future generations and do nothing than it is to deal with the pain and reality of it all.
Easier to believe the propaganda the talking heads feed them than to figure things out on there own.
Destabilization of the entire Middle East is gonna happen regardless Of who is (Seemingly) in power in this country or any other for that matter.
You know what? I don't care anymore.
I will say this. Regardless who is POTUS/POTRF, if it ever comes to any kind of nuclear war, ever; I hope the Secret Service/KGB handcuffs them to a fixed object while the wait staff boards the aircraft.
And you know what else? Fvck the ME/SWA. All of them and everybody who looks like 'em.
Moose-Knuckle
04-07-17, 05:05
Agreed. Seems Trump sold out his Foreign Policy. The last Syrian Sarin Gas attack was a False Flag and so is this One. The White Helmets are Al Queda. This hole thing is BS. Pretty sad, as an America, I have to pray and hope that Putin puts these Psychopaths in Check Mate. Pure Insanity.
This is where I'm at.
Syria is not a civil war, it is a proxy war raging between the Persian Shia Iranians and the Sunni Arab Wahhabis.
Eurodriver
04-07-17, 05:07
You know what? I don't care anymore.
I will say this. Regardless who is POTUS/POTRF, if it ever comes to any kind of nuclear war, ever; I hope the Secret Service/KGB handcuffs them to a fixed object while the wait staff boards the aircraft.
And you know what else? Fvck the ME/SWA. All of them and everybody who looks like 'em.
Idgaf either. Bread and circuses aren't all that bad tbh.
Moose-Knuckle
04-07-17, 05:14
As long as the deep state and its players make billions off of both sides in every conflict- there will ALWAYS be a reason to beat the war drums.
Too much money to be made- world leaders are just chess pieces.
Same shit, different day. Trump couldn't stop it if he wanted to or not. It's the world we live in and the current nature of our reality.
People need to truly wake up before anything will change. What a deep sleep most are in.
They know more about celebrities and reality TV than they do geopolitics.
It's the real zombie apocalypse- people just turn the TV and cell phone on and tune all the important stuff out. Most people turned themselves "off" long ago. It's easier to fvck up the world for future generations and do nothing than it is to deal with the pain and reality of it all.
Easier to believe the propaganda the talking heads feed them than to figure things out on there own.
Destabilization of the entire Middle East is gonna happen regardless Of who is (Seemingly) in power in this country or any other for that matter.
Outstanding post.
Outlander Systems
04-07-17, 05:53
http://i.imgur.com/B6I9a88.gif
Not going to lie. I laughed at, "few hundred dollars worth of damage".
Well done, Sir.
Probably nothing coming next. We did a few hundred dollars worth of damage to a Syrian airfield to make a point, and for Lord Cheeto to demonstrate he will be like a proverbial tornado in their shitty trailer park as needed.
This was the kind of symbolic strike one would expect a first world power to make in response to a chemical weapons attack carried out against third world denizens by a third world dictator. We have to demonstrate to the other shit heels, and to the world that we "care" enough to do something. Nothing more, nothing less.
what fills the void ? worked out great with killing sadam ! iraq is so awesome now
yeah IMHO stay out of it big time !!!!
Several are missing some very key points:
-The Whitehouse specifically stated they have no desire to attack Assad directly, a strategy that has not worked in the past as policy (leader replacement)
- they did feel compelled to remove Assad's capability to do this type of attack again. They just took a sharp knife away from a child who was doing dangerous things. They'll do the same with artillery if needed, that that will be messier.
- we have significant capability to identify and track air assets in the region. IE: if we attacked that specific base it was because we knew it was the source of the attack.
- the Russians were warned prior. And while they have to publicly moan and groan, they know/knew this was possible if a human rights situation justified it.
I'm still thinking this one through. But I'm mostly ok with the approach, and do feel something had to be done. He just hit the stubborn mule in the head, has it's attention.
It will also help with the "Trump is a Russian proxy" stuff.
It's like having a loud argument in NYC and some random yells "Shut the f@ck up!"
Same thing.
what fills the void ? worked out great with killing sadam ! iraq is so awesome now
That is publicly stated as NOT being their strategy. Read the Whitehouse statement.
For all the "false flag" worriers, they have now released specific aircraft tracks from tracking showing it was two flights of aircraft from that airbase that performed the strike.
You have to recognize we are pretty much tracking every movement (air, sea or land) in the area via awacs, jstars replacement, drones, etc.
Also significant: the Russians were warned and have significant anti air assets in the area. Yet chose not to use them against the drones.
ramairthree
04-07-17, 07:52
Trump is not perfect.
But I would be very surprised if there was not a "Here is the deal" arrangement with key players prior.
Hillary would have already made a jump, taken the checked, and demanded "King me!!!" With people that did not want to play checkers that were forced on the board.
I suspect Trump let people that were already playing chess know it was his turn to make a move, and he had to take a pawn. And let's just chill out now and take a time out, He's not wanting to finish this game, take their pieces of rank, and hammer them into check and mate.
I may be wrong, but he could have sat this election out basking in celebrity, leading a luxurious life while phoning it in, sleeping late, and banging supermodels. Don't see him purposefully seeking world suicide, or not looking several moves ahead.
Several are missing some very key points:
-The Whitehouse specifically stated they have no desire to attack Assad directly, a strategy that has not worked in the past as policy (leader replacement)
- they did feel compelled to remove Assad's capability to do this type of attack again. They just took a sharp knife away from a child who was doing dangerous things. They'll do the same with artillery if needed, that that will be messier.
- we have significant capability to identify and track air assets in the region. IE: if we attacked that specific base it was because we knew it was the source of the attack.
- the Russians were warned prior. And while they have to publicly moan and groan, they know/knew this was possible if a human rights situation justified it.
I'm still thinking this one through. But I'm mostly ok with the approach, and do feel something had to be done. He just hit the stubborn mule in the head, has it's attention.
It will also help with the "Trump is a Russian proxy" stuff.
My thoughts also. This was just like taking a 2x4 and knocking a bit of sense into the mule. I doubt this will be taken to another level at this point.
That is publicly stated as NOT being their strategy. Read the Whitehouse statement.
I'm not so sure. There is a lot of talk or regime change with respect to Syria just prior to this attack.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/06/tillerson-says-coalition-forming-to-target-assad-trump-hearing-military-options.html
I still think you guys need to immediately eat 6 cups of salt...just in case.
So what do we have here?
Russia supports Assad, Assad attacks ISIS, but Assad supports Hamas, therefore Assad is good?
Russia supports Iran, Iran attacks ISIS, but Iran supports various terrorist groups, therefore Iran is good?
I'm having a hard time figuring out who are the "good guys" in this? This "enemy of my enemy is my friend" makes my head hurt. Again, it's all part of the geopolitical muscle flexing of a Super Power. We do it, they do it. At some point you have to simplify things and identify who is against your interests and kill it. It's a shitty world, isn't it?
Digital_Damage
04-07-17, 08:20
Now that some details have been publicly released (don't understand why they did that) I can elaborate.
Runway was not targeted.
planes, hangars and some control systems were targeted.
Russians were warned, Syria moved most of their critical and newer assets to the Russian side that was not targeted.
The older air defense system they use was about 50% effective, only half reached intended targets.
Airbase will be operational again in 72 hours.
Outlander Systems
04-07-17, 08:22
#Syria
http://shirtigo.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/moseisleycafe.jpg
Now that some details have been publicly released (don't understand why they did that) I can elaborate.
Runway was not targeted.
planes, hangars and some control systems were targeted.
Russians were warned, Syria moved most of their critical and newer assets to the Russian side that was not targeted.
The older air defense system they use was about 50% effective, only half reached intended targets.
Airbase will be operational again in 72 hours.
Trying to send a political message vs a genuine militarily effective one apparently. Russia being warned and international support is what was needed to send a message with minimal blow back other than some saber rattles. We can’t allow what Obama did to happen, which is no credibility with friends nor enemies we can and will act. Message sent. See what happens
Of course we can thank Obama and HC for that mess and total loss of credibility internationally, but that's another topic.
TO add, Mr 180 at his best. Tweets:
"What will we get for bombing Syria besides more debt and a possible long term conflict? Obama needs Congressional approval."
"If Obama attacks Syria and innocent civilians are hurt and killed, he and the U.S. will look very bad!"
"What I am saying is stay out of Syria."
"AGAIN, TO OUR VERY FOOLISH LEADER, DO NOT ATTACK SYRIA - IF YOU DO MANY VERY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN & FROM THAT FIGHT THE U.S. GETS NOTHING!"
"President Obama, do not attack Syria. There is no upside and tremendous downside. Save your "powder" for another (and more important) day!"
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/syria-donald-trump-tweets-170407041106339.html
Trump just got played by the deep state, neocons, and globalists.
This is not an "America First" policy.
This is a repeat of W's administration. Fails to advance a conservative domestic agenda and gets involved in other war without a clearly defined ending.
Why wasn't a repeal of obamacare ready from paul ryan when Trump assumed office?
Why wasn't a tax cut ready from paul ryan when Trump assumed office?
Its because shit stain and power bottom graham want this war that obama and hillary started.
Nothing is going to change in that part of the world until the place is carpet bombed with B-52s.
Until that happens (which it never will) then we don't need to be there.
I'm not so sure. There is a lot of talk or regime change with respect to Syria just prior to this attack.
Which Trump walked back some the day prior to the attack. Not taking it off the table, just that it was not viewed as a good solution.
And then the WH statement immediately after the attack made it very clear this was not an attack on Assad nor was there intent to do so. It was very narrowly targeted to focus on the tool/behavior and not the leader.
But that may come next, depends on how the mule responds.
First everyone needs to be cool.
As someone with skin in the game, here is my take on Syria.
It was all part of obama's plan to replace secular dictators, with Islamic wackos that would all unit and march on the colonialist Jews occupying Palestine.
But Syria AKA Assad fought back with the help of the Russians. This pissed off the fossil McCain who hit his zenith in North Viet Nam, because he is unable to leave the cold war behind.
To stay in power Assad had no choice but to allow Iran and Hizballah into Syria in a big way.
Today because of American stupidity on the part of both parties, we are in a huge mess.
We need to get rid of ISIL, or it will bite us.
Allow Assad to stay he stays with Iran and Hizballah in his country and we then need a large Russian military there to try and keep the lid on.
If Russia leaves or can't keep Iran and Hizballah in check then we have the potential for incoming from Syria to Israel.
Solution to this problem takes creative thinking on the part of Putin and Trump and a war. America and Russia form together and defeat ISIL, the Hizballah and Iran in Syria. Then work together for revolution in Iran to over throw the theocracy.
The worse case scenario for the world is too follow the advice of the still culturally naive people in DC and remove Assad. This will bring about a huge war in time with a very good chance of use of WMD.
Trump just got played by the deep state, neocons, and globalists.
Eventually, and after seeing the same pattern of behavior repeated ad nauseam, you will stop seeing him as someone being played and realize that he was always very much a player.
Now, go prepare yourself for the coming nuclear winter with 6 cups of salt.
WickedWillis
04-07-17, 10:48
First everyone needs to be cool.
As someone with skin in the game, here is my take on Syria.
It was all part of obama's plan to replace secular dictators, with Islamic wackos that would all unit and march on the colonialist Jews occupying Palestine.
But Syria AKA Assad fought back with the help of the Russians. This pissed off the fossil McCain who hit his zenith in North Viet Nam, because he is unable to leave the cold war behind.
To stay in power Assad had no choice but to allow Iran and Hizballah into Syria in a big way.
Today because of American stupidity on the part of both parties, we are in a huge mess.
We need to get rid of ISIL, or it will bite us.
Allow Assad to stay he stays with Iran and Hizballah in his country and we then need a large Russian military there to try and keep the lid on.
If Russia leaves or can't keep Iran and Hizballah in check then we have the potential for incoming from Syria to Israel.
Solution to this problem takes creative thinking on the part of Putin and Trump and a war. America and Russia form together and defeat ISIL, the Hizballah and Iran in Syria. Then work together for revolution in Iran to over throw the theocracy.
The worse case scenario for the world is too follow the advice of the still culturally naive people in DC and remove Assad. This will bring about a huge war in time with a very good chance of use of WMD.
I love the idea of large groups of US and Russian professional face shooters in joint task forces hitting ISIS hives all around the world. We have no bigger threat currently.
Singlestack Wonder
04-07-17, 11:01
I love the idea of large groups of US and Russian professional face shooters in joint task forces hitting ISIS hives all around the world. We have no bigger threat currently.
+10......
Chemical attack is a false flag and I now fall on the "Trump is a lying shit bag" side if things.
Chemical attack is a false flag and I now fall on the "Trump is a lying shit bag" side if things.
And your proof for false flag is???? (Crickets)
Without getting into details, there is no doubt at all where the gas attack came from and how.
So unless the false flag coopted the Syrian military on the base they share with the Russians, you are parroting internet fud.
More broadly: don't you think if it was false flag there would be countries and agencies crying foul?
Outlander Systems
04-07-17, 11:25
I'm calling Russian propaganda on the "false flag"/#SyriaHoax narrative...
I'm calling Russian propaganda on the "false flag"/#SyriaHoax narrative...
So, the guy that predicated much of his campaign on conspiracy theories is now being eaten by his former supporters with their own conspiracy theories. You can't make this shit up.
http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/04/07/alt-right-found-new-cuck-hate-donald-trump/
People who were skeptical of Trump, at best, were praising him for orchestrating a long overdue military response to a tyrant.
But then there were his loyalists – the red cap wearing, Pepe the Frog pimping, Nationalist, MAGA crowd. A great many of them were not pleased, to say the least...
Even while the media was assaulting us with heartbreaking images of Syrian children either dead or fighting for breath, some of Trump’s most faithful backers had already revved up the conspiracy mill and were pumping out their theories faster than their followers could keep up.
These were the alt-right nutcases that made Donald Trump during the run up to the election. They went from being just random internet kooks to actual engines of policy, promoting Trump’s every crazed, barely intelligible speech on the campaign trail.
And Trump ate it up.
Trump is no stranger to pushing conspiracy theories, whether it be his birther theories about Barack Obama or his oh-so-casual promotion of the idea that Ted Cruz’s dad was somehow connected to Lee Harvey Oswald and President Kennedy’s assassination.
Make no mistake, these are his people.
And now his people are losing their collective minds.
Even before last night’s strike, the usual suspects began a furious “false flag” push, signaling that Assad was not to blame for the deadly gas attack, but that either it was staged by the “fake media,” or Syrian rebels had launched the attack, themselves.
I feel sorry for all those parents of 4Chan members who were kept awake last night by their kids anxiously pacing in their basements.
I love the idea of large groups of US and Russian professional face shooters in joint task forces hitting ISIS hives all around the world. We have no bigger threat currently.
In Mother Russia, ISIS hives hit you?
platoonDaddy
04-07-17, 12:10
Two or so hours, prior to the Syrian hit, hillary was out there pushing for a hit on the airfield. Wonder if she received an UP from someone in the State Department?
And your proof for false flag is???? (Crickets)
All the cool kids immediately claim false flag to give the impression of some inside knowledge they don't posses. Those who claim 9/11 or CT shootings and such were FF ops, often listening to idiots like Jones et al lose all credibility for further discussion.
As long as the deep state and its players make billions off of both sides in every conflict- there will ALWAYS be a reason to beat the war drums.
Too much money to be made- world leaders are just chess pieces.
Same shit, different day. Trump couldn't stop it if he wanted to or not. It's the world we live in and the current nature of our reality.
People need to truly wake up before anything will change. What a deep sleep most are in.
They know more about celebrities and reality TV than they do geopolitics.
It's the real zombie apocalypse- people just turn the TV and cell phone on and tune all the important stuff out. Most people turned themselves "off" long ago. It's easier to fvck up the world for future generations and do nothing than it is to deal with the pain and reality of it all.
Easier to believe the propaganda the talking heads feed them than to figure things out on there own.
Destabilization of the entire Middle East is gonna happen regardless Of who is (Seemingly) in power in this country or any other for that matter.
+2 and I will add it has always been this way...regardless of where you believe man originated, we have been killing each other for religion, food, pussy and land since the beginning.
Nothing new under the sun and all that.
+2 and I will add it has always been this way...regardless of where you believe man originated, we have been killing each other for religion, food, pussy and land since the beginning.
Nothing new under the sun and all that.
http://www.kotapparel.com/images/categories/014.png
All the cool kids immediately claim false flag to give the impression of some inside knowledge they don't posses. Those who claim 9/11 or CT shootings and such were FF ops, often listening to idiots like Jones et al lose all credibility for further discussion.
It's just as bad as listening to people who deny Sandy Hook happened. They know for a fact those little kids were singing in some chorus line at the following Super Bowl.
It's just as bad as listening to people who deny Sandy Hook happened. They know for a fact those little kids were singing in some chorus line at the following Super Bowl.
Note Sandy Hook mentioned in my post. I personally know some gents from the SWAT team that arrived. Some unable to return to work to this day due to what they saw.
All the cool kids immediately claim false flag to give the impression of some inside knowledge they don't posses. Those who claim 9/11 or CT shootings and such were FF ops, often listening to idiots like Jones et al lose all credibility for further discussion.
Yep. Though it's a real dynamic now. IE: it had to be ruled out.
Even our mil understands (and apparently has evidence) that false flag stuff occurred between Sunni and Shia in Iraq.
Yep. Though it's a real dynamic now. IE: it had to be ruled out.
Even our mil understands (and apparently has evidence) that false flag stuff occurred between Sunni and Shia in Iraq.
Of course. It's not that it does not happen, it's that some will assume it is first, claim it is without any support but wack job sources and such, type in all caps to make their points, when they don't know chit we don't. Some events they push as FF have screw all support for it, etc.
Averageman
04-07-17, 13:34
Wonder if this is why Bannon got ousted?
Next to ISIS, Assad is small potatoes. Unfortunately the previous admins retarded foreign policies empowered ISIS growth and strengthening. They are a threat to US and Russian interests. Unfortunately if Trump joins forces with Russia to face shoot ISIS around the globe the MSM will just cry proof Russians hacked the election.
What need to happen and what will happen are sadly going to be 2 very different things.
And your proof for false flag is???? (Crickets)
Proof it was in fact Assad?
It is so incredibly dumb for Assad to have done this. He was basically winning, we were going to leave him in power.
The same people who wanted to topple Assad under Obama, still want to to now. It is a power play. It is the saudi oil baked US dollar pitted against Russia, it is about who gets to supply energy to Europe. These people still want this, with out trump being in on this agenda he needs to be given a reason. A false flag attack.
No it can't be proven, but makes way more sense.
Proof it was in fact Assad?
Well, proof it was his military assets, which are 100% under his control. Dictatorships being what they are.
I don't know the magic answer for Syria, it's a hard situation.
But I don't have a problem with Trump's response:
1) something had to be done
2) it puts the hardasses on alert a new sheriff is in town that won't tolerate near what the old Regime did
3) it's a clear demonstration of power and reach, which certain communities respect.
4) it should put an end to the "Trump is a Russian puppet" stuff. (But won't)
5) it was a measured response that focused on behavior, not individual or territories
So reports now that a Russian warship is steaming to the location of the US Destroyers from which the 'hawks were launched.
Those of you in the know...what does that mean, and how does it play out?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I know that I have
BUT the end game will most likely be the same thing in the long run ?
and even the Trump WH I am not going to just say OK they said that must be true ?
at the same time he is a bad guy wiping out other bad guys but the chemical thing was to much ? SO the strategic strike is fine and not sure that will stop the mess that has been going on over there for hundreds of years ?
I see the huge pros with the meeting with China and position of power that would have been fun to listen and watch that meeting :)
the calling out Putin and showing he is more puff than anything since they talk so much and are tough to know but we know they are also talk tough to folks they know they can kick and talking tough to the big guy is one thing acting is another ? so kinda puts Russia back on the OK you are the big fish in the little pond kinda position
sadly I think something needs to be done with the saudis in power and the control to leverage them to show there true face ? how no idea
again just think in many ways back out of these kinda things not get involved in civil conflicts no matter how bad they are but I hope think this could be a world situation showing we are not the pussies obama made us out to be ! which is a good thing :)
That is publicly stated as NOT being their strategy. Read the Whitehouse statement.
So what do we have here?
Russia supports Assad, Assad attacks ISIS, but Assad supports Hamas, therefore Assad is good?
Russia supports Iran, Iran attacks ISIS, but Iran supports various terrorist groups, therefore Iran is good?
I'm having a hard time figuring out who are the "good guys" in this? This "enemy of my enemy is my friend" makes my head hurt. Again, it's all part of the geopolitical muscle flexing of a Super Power. We do it, they do it. At some point you have to simplify things and identify who is against your interests and kill it. It's a shitty world, isn't it?
well said and kinda my thing
Mel Gibson movie Pay Back :) rooting for the bad guy kinda thing
1: no and why ? and why us ?
2: yes
3: no this is already known IMHO
4: well it wont sadly cause the left are loonies and they will just twist it to something else ?
5: yes
again I see the pros and hope it works but we have dipped our toes in for to long over there with nothing good in return :)
not disagreeing with those who are good with it ? IMHO its a bit like friends disagreeing on things ? not a huge deal in the end since we are so away from any control we just have to like it or not and go with what happens :)
Well, proof it was his military assets, which are 100% under his control. Dictatorships being what they are.
I don't know the magic answer for Syria, it's a hard situation.
But I don't have a problem with Trump's response:
1) something had to be done
2) it puts the hardasses on alert a new sheriff is in town that won't tolerate near what the old Regime did
3) it's a clear demonstration of power and reach, which certain communities respect.
4) it should put an end to the "Trump is a Russian puppet" stuff. (But won't)
5) it was a measured response that focused on behavior, not individual or territories
Averageman
04-07-17, 17:07
http://extragoodshit.phlap.net/index.php/debkafile-logo-home-hot-topics-video-debka-weekly-debka-review-hebrew-fri-april-7-2017-subscribe-to-debka-weekly-advertise-on-the-site-about-debkafile-contact-us-condemnation-will-not-stop-assa/#more-405273
Seven nations maintain elite military units in Syria – the US, Russia, Britain, Germany, France, Jordan and Israel. American, Russian and Turkish troops are backed by air support. Had those powers decided to destroy the Syrian dictator Bashar Assad’s poison chemical arsenal, they could have combined to do so and finished the job in a few days – and this week’s horrific tragedy possibly been averted.
The most cynical aspect of this international wringing of hands is the sorry record of the way Assad’s toxic warfare record has been handled.
On May 3, 2014, the US military reported that efforts to bring about the dismantling of the Syrian army’s chemical weapons had come to naught after Bashar Assad refused to hand over the 27 tons of sarin precursor chemicals, so long as the UN disarmament agency (OPCW) insisted on his destroying their underground storage sites..
According to debkafile’s sources, 12 of those bunker facilities are still operational and barred to access by UN inspectors.
Five months later, OPCW reported that Assad’s chemical weapons stocks had been liquidated. US Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov shook hands in Geneva to flashing cameras to celebrate the successful outcome of their negotiations on the subject.
Good article and worth your time.
Though I am against further U.S. involvement in Syria, I have given this some thought today. While I will stop shy of calling this "political genius", the timing and details couldn't have been more favorable:
1) We used Tomahawks, which don't necessitate putting our pilots at risk nor necessitate taking out radar sites manned by Russians.
2) The Russians were warned ahead of time, so you know damn well they gave a heads-up to the Syrians.
3) The loss of Syrian .mil lives was like 2, right? Could've been made much worse.
4) The fact that Trump was dining with Xi exactly when this went down was priceless. He nonchalantly excused himself, took care of business, and returned for dessert. Don't think for one minute that this was lost on Xi, whose help we are looking for to reign in the Norks.
5) Fat boy Kim in NK saw it too, as did the Russians and Iranians.
Not to be cliche', but it made apparent that there is a "new sheriff in town" to the folks that needed to get that message.
Outlander Systems
04-07-17, 18:46
@ABNAK
4) and 5) crack me up.
KJU vomited forth his typical rhetoric/internal propaganda.
I'd be willing to bet Xi's butthole may have puckered up as well.
@ABNAK
4) and 5) crack me up.
KJU vomited forth his typical rhetoric/internal propaganda.
I'd be willing to bet Xi's butthole may have puckered up as well.
"Ahh, Yankee Dog f*****g dinky dau!"
Grand58742
04-07-17, 19:05
4) it should put an end to the "Trump is a Russian puppet" stuff. (But won't)
Oh, the left is already screeching about how the Russians were "warned" in advance. Of course it was interpreted as "Trump is looking out for his benefactor in the Kremlin."
Couldn't have been to avoid a direct confrontation with Russia by killing Russian troops.
Though I am against further U.S. involvement in Syria, I have given this some thought today. While I will stop shy of calling this "political genius", the timing and details couldn't have been more favorable:
1) We used Tomahawks, which don't necessitate putting our pilots at risk nor necessitate taking out radar sites manned by Russians.
2) The Russians were warned ahead of time, so you know damn well they gave a heads-up to the Syrians.
3) The loss of Syrian .mil lives was like 2, right? Could've been made much worse.
4) The fact that Trump was dining with Xi exactly when this went down was priceless. He nonchalantly excused himself, took care of business, and returned for dessert. Don't think for one minute that this was lost on Xi, whose help we are looking for to reign in the Norks.
5) Fat boy Kim in NK saw it too, as did the Russians and Iranians.
Not to be cliche', but it made apparent that there is a "new sheriff in town" to the folks that needed to get that message.
Excellent observation. Add to it the thoughts going thru Putin's head when he knew the attack was go. Maybe he thought he had Trump figured out?
"Ahh, Yankee Dog f*****g dinky dau!"
Can't remember the last time I belly laughed, but that right there did it! :lol:
Oh, the left is already screeching about how the Russians were "warned" in advance. Of course it was interpreted as "Trump is looking out for his benefactor in the Kremlin."
Couldn't have been to avoid a direct confrontation with Russia by killing Russian troops.
Funny, I don't remember them doing that when Obama dropped leaflets on ISIS convoys so we'd only destroy their oil trucks. :rolleyes:
All the cool kids immediately claim false flag to give the impression of some inside knowledge they don't posses. Those who claim 9/11 or CT shootings and such were FF ops, often listening to idiots like Jones et al lose all credibility for further discussion.
This needs to be repeated far more often.
Multiple outlets reporting that Russia may have assisted Assad with the gas attack.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/world/syria-military-strikes-donald-trump-russia/index.html
The US military official said the Pentagon was examining specifically whether a Russian warplane had bombed a hospital in Khan Sheikhoun five hours after the initial chemical attack, with the aim of destroying evidence.
A US defense official says intelligence shows a Russian drone flew over the hospital in Idlib that was treating victims of the chemical attack, prior to the site being later bombed by an unknown aircraft.
FNC's Catherine Herridge said this evening that her sources confirm it was a Russian aircraft that bombed the hospital treating survivors of the gas attack.
Due to supposedly good intel we were sure Saddam had WMDs until we found out he really didn't. That got the sabers rattling like fast.
Ask yourself for a second what if Assad really didn't do this? No I don't have proof but isn't it possible? Now Russia is being blamed for their supposed role.
Ask the Russian company Gazprom, the largest gas producer and exporter to Europe, how they feel about this situation and their planned pipeline through Syria.
I will modify my opinion thusly, if they commit; they better see it through.
No backtracks, no lines in sand being redrawn, and no pity party for Syrians.
MountainRaven
04-08-17, 01:02
I get that a bunch of Saudi extremists would think that using airplanes as cruise missiles is a good idea. I get that certain damaged individuals might decide that they should kill a bunch of kids at the school their mother works at after killing their mother and then kill themselves. However...
It seems that the official US narrative is that Assad launched a chemical attack.
During a war that he's winning.
After officially destroying his chemical weapons stockpiles. Thereby blowing his credibility.
After getting the Russians to verify it. Thereby blowing their credibility.
Over what? A little spit of land that his troops with Russian support would be taking soon, anyway?
And the Russians still deny that the Syrians even have chemical weapons.
Not that I'm about to believe the Russians, because their credibility has been shot since they kicked the Mongols out. Not that I'm saying that this was a False Flag operation.
But the official narrative doesn't make sense. And the credibility of the US government has been shot since at least 1846.
I get that a bunch of Saudi extremists would think that using airplanes as cruise missiles is a good idea. I get that certain damaged individuals might decide that they should kill a bunch of kids at the school their mother works at after killing their mother and then kill themselves. However...
It seems that the official US narrative is that Assad launched a chemical attack.
During a war that he's winning.
After officially destroying his chemical weapons stockpiles. Thereby blowing his credibility.
After getting the Russians to verify it. Thereby blowing their credibility.
Over what? A little spit of land that his troops with Russian support would be taking soon, anyway?
And the Russians still deny that the Syrians even have chemical weapons.
Not that I'm about to believe the Russians, because their credibility has been shot since they kicked the Mongols out. Not that I'm saying that this was a False Flag operation.
But the official narrative doesn't make sense. And the credibility of the US government has been shot since at least 1846.
You are assuming Assad is a sane and rational person. You are also assuming many other things. I'm not saying you are wrong, at the end of the day it looks very much like we made up a bunch of shit to go into Iraq and kill Saddam and then didn't even have the decency to not lose it to a bunch of Islamic extremists, BUT that doesn't mean Assad didn't have chemical weapons and it doesn't mean he didn't use them at least two times.
Personally I'm no fan of Assad, but I'd take him over the Muslim Brotherhood any day. Brutal as it may sound, wiping out families with Sarin gas is really nothing worse than what ISIS does to families all the time. We also need to recognize our responsibility for creating this situation, if we didn't destabilize Iraq to the point it couldn't defend itself and then decide "ok, we're done...good luck" this entire situation wouldn't even exist, there wouldn't be an ISIS, there wouldn't be anyone for Assad to attack.
Right now we are fighting both sides of a civil war, that is pretty much the definition of a "no win scenario." And even if we pull it off and defeat ISIS, rebel extremists, Iranian infiltrators AND take down the Assad regime...then what? Free elections so everyone sympathetic to ISIS, who hated Assad and resents the US for screwing with their country can vote in the Islamic brotherhood? And how many years is that going to take? How many members of the US military are going to die for that effort?
But I agree a LOT of things don't make sense. As for credibility, that really fluctuates from generation to generation, administration to administration. To suggest that the US governments of FDR, John Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton are essentially the same thing is pretty absurd. None of them were perfect, but I think that holds true for every form of government in the world since the beginning of civilization. I could probably find some credibility problems that predate 1846. We stated "all men are created equal" while owning slaves, so right from the outset we didn't exactly live up to our stated ideals.
Moose-Knuckle
04-08-17, 04:40
Due to supposedly good intel we were sure Saddam had WMDs until we found out he really didn't. That got the sabers rattling like fast.
Ask yourself for a second what if Assad really didn't do this? No I don't have proof but isn't it possible? Now Russia is being blamed for their supposed role.
Ask the Russian company Gazprom, the largest gas producer and exporter to Europe, how they feel about this situation and their planned pipeline through Syria.
Well you know cause Saddam was behind 9/11 right . . . lol.
And yes it's all Russia's fault; Hilary losing, the Pats winning with Superbowl, et al.
Buy hey never mind the White Helmets are crisis actors.
By God CNN said so it's just got to be true! :jester:
Your pipeline reference is in the X-ring. When looking at the map of current and proposed pipelines in the Mid-East shit starts to make a lot more since. As General Wesley Clark is fond of saying; "If the Middle East didn't have oil it would just be another Africa".
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 05:33
Multiple outlets reporting that Russia may have assisted Assad with the gas attack.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/world/syria-military-strikes-donald-trump-russia/index.html
FNC's Catherine Herridge said this evening that her sources confirm it was a Russian aircraft that bombed the hospital treating survivors of the gas attack.
I believe there is or was some speculation that the aircraft involved was an Su-24 (Sukhoi). Designated 'Fencer'. Russia has abut 11 on the ground in Syria, the Syrian AF has about 20, although that number is likely one or the short due to attrition from civil war.
Simply, either side could have carried it out and without some IMINT assets or HUMINT assets in the ground we'd likely not know who. Although the there is some potential we could have picked up some potential ELINT signature based on variants, and guidance systems on board, but that's just a educated guess on my part. Our Tomahawk strike targeted Al Shayrat air base and the Russian aircraft are at Latakia air base in Syria. It is possible some aircraft were repositioned. I don't have a good feel for what kind of eyes-on capability we have, although I'd assume we have some HUMINT assets in the two areas.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You guys must be watching too much MSNBC, Lawrence McDonald said last night that there is some % of a chance that Trump's buddy Putin setup the chemical attack to give Trump a glorious missile moment. Presumably to push the negative headlines out of the news cycle.
So all you false flaggers, is it:
A) the us mil/Intel made up the radar tracks and drone footage? And tricked Trump?
B) someone in Syria managed to steal the planes, load them with chem weapons, attack, and then land without capture by Assad's forces?
C) Trump made up the whole thing, and blackmailed Mattis and others into going along with it?
Or the MSNBC theme:
D) Russia setup the attack to help Trump?
One of those instead of Occam's razor:
E) tin hat dictator who has used gas in the past to brutally suppress rebels does the same again?
Really, that's what your going with?
platoonDaddy
04-08-17, 07:43
As previously stated hillary is rumored to have received word about the attack from her contacts at State and now the following: cernovich who recently appeared on 60 minutes smearing all Trump supporters also received an UP.
click on the video (5 seconds is enough)
https://www.pscp.tv/Cernovich/1yoKMeWknzNKQ?t=17
Can't remember the last time I belly laughed, but that right there did it! :lol:
Hey, I'm here all week! ;)
Due to supposedly good intel we were sure Saddam had WMDs until we found out he really didn't. That got the sabers rattling like fast.
Ask yourself for a second what if Assad really didn't do this? No I don't have proof but isn't it possible? Now Russia is being blamed for their supposed role.
Ask the Russian company Gazprom, the largest gas producer and exporter to Europe, how they feel about this situation and their planned pipeline through Syria.
So, your theory requires that Trump must be in on it, right?
Multiple outlets reporting that Russia may have assisted Assad with the gas attack.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/world/syria-military-strikes-donald-trump-russia/index.html
FNC's Catherine Herridge said this evening that her sources confirm it was a Russian aircraft that bombed the hospital treating survivors of the gas attack.
After they refused to report certain news I no longer see them as a credible news source
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
After they refused to report certain news I no longer see them as a credible news source
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I agree. They have no credibility. Once you lie to me I will never trust you again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 11:05
I'd be willing to bet Xi's butthole may have puckered up as well.
THIS....
Cracked me up bigger than a fat lady's butt crack at a Brazilian beach.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After they refused to report certain news I no longer see them as a credible news source
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I agree. They have no credibility. Once you lie to me I will never trust you again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So, tell me more about Catherine Herridge lying or refusing to cover stories. Much of what we know about Benghazi, Clinton email, etc. is based off her reporting.
If she is reporting an investigation into Russian collaboration with the gas attack, then there is a damn good chance there is an investigation looking into just that. Besides, our agreement in 2013 with Russia was that they would oversee the disposal of Assad's chemical weapons. If Assad used Sarin last week, it makes a lot more sense that Russia at least knew than the false flag / InfoWars crap that others are peddling.
So, tell me more about Catherine Herridge lying or refusing to cover stories. Much of what we know about Benghazi, Clinton email, etc. is based off her reporting.
If she is reporting an investigation into Russian collaboration with the gas attack, then there is a damn good chance there is an investigation looking into just that. Besides, our agreement in 2013 with Russia was that they would oversee the disposal of Assad's chemical weapons. If Assad used Sarin last week, it makes a lot more sense that Russia at least knew than the false flag / InfoWars crap that others are peddling.
I'm not saying they're lying or that she's lying but their refusal to air certain news kills their credibility for me.
As for the actual gassing I don't believe it was Assad. I just don't see why he would when, like others have said, he's winning. And if he did then why not just gas Aleppo instead of having a long drawn out fight. I just don't see the point.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I think the attack by the US was warranted, even necessary. It sent multiple useful messages and has garnered kudos for Trump from many different corners of the world. I see it as signaling that chemical weapons crossed the line. I don't see it as a broadening of our current involvement in Syria. My hope is that Trump won't take the applause that this one informative diplomatic action has generated and assume that more is better.
--- Assad gassed Ghouta in 2013 but where's the proof?
Syria chemical weapons attack blamed on Assad, but where's the evidence
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-chemical-weapons-attack-blamed-on-assad-but-wheres-the-evidence/
No proof who used chemical weapons: UN
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/no-proof-who-used-chemical-weapons-un/news-story/e165e4fae5fb90c6a17a6670ed7c0a75
"It was established that on March 19, the rebels launched an unguided Bashar 3 projectile towards Khan al-Assal controlled by the government forces," Vitaly Churkin, Russian ambassador to the United Nations, told reporters, adding that he intended to share the evidence with the U.S., U.K and France.
The ambassador said the results of the analysis of the gas-laden projectile indicated the Bashar 3 rocket "was not industrially manufactured and was filled with sarin." He said the samples indicated the sarin and the projectile were produced in "cottage industry" conditions.
The absence of chemical stabilizers, which are needed for long-term storage and later use, indicated its "possibly recent production," Churkin said.
The Russian's purported evidence of rebel culpability for the Khan al-Assal attack was never revealed, but neither was the West's*purported evidence that the Assad regime did it."
--- Regime change was demanded until an agreement was reached.
--- Nikki Haley announced there would be no demand for regime change in Syria.
--- Assad supposedly gasses Khan Sheikhoun.
An honest question, why would he risk us taking him out again?
RetroRevolver77
04-08-17, 14:26
--- Assad gassed Ghouta in 2013 but where's the proof?
Syria chemical weapons attack blamed on Assad, but where's the evidence
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-chemical-weapons-attack-blamed-on-assad-but-wheres-the-evidence/
No proof who used chemical weapons: UN
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/no-proof-who-used-chemical-weapons-un/news-story/e165e4fae5fb90c6a17a6670ed7c0a75
"It was established that on March 19, the rebels launched an unguided Bashar 3 projectile towards Khan al-Assal controlled by the government forces," Vitaly Churkin, Russian ambassador to the United Nations, told reporters, adding that he intended to share the evidence with the U.S., U.K and France.
The ambassador said the results of the analysis of the gas-laden projectile indicated the Bashar 3 rocket "was not industrially manufactured and was filled with sarin." He said the samples indicated the sarin and the projectile were produced in "cottage industry" conditions.
The absence of chemical stabilizers, which are needed for long-term storage and later use, indicated its "possibly recent production," Churkin said.
The Russian's purported evidence of rebel culpability for the Khan al-Assal attack was never revealed, but neither was the West's*purported evidence that the Assad regime did it."
--- Regime change was demanded until an agreement was reached.
--- Nikki Haley announced there would be no demand for regime change in Syria.
--- Assad supposedly gasses Khan Sheikhoun.
An honest question, why would he risk us taking him out again?
Because Assad watches CNN thinking Russia and Trump are friends- so back to business as usual.
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 14:28
"Ahh, Yankee Dog f*****g dinky dau!"
Vietnam Veteran.... Must be!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As for the actual gassing I don't believe it was Assad. I just don't see why he would when, like others have said, he's winning.
So who flew his planes? Or is the us mil lying? Or Trump?
Do you not realize how much surveillance and Intel we have over that area right now? awacs, satellites, drones?
Likewise, where is the outcry and proof from the syrians that it was false flag?
So who flew his planes? Or is the us mil lying? Or Trump?
Do you not realize how much surveillance and Intel we have over that area right now? awacs, satellites, drones?
Likewise, where is the outcry and proof from the syrians that it was false flag?
Well, MSNBC is suggesting Putin did it lololol
http://drudgenow.com/article/?n=1&s=2&c=1&pn=Anonymous&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fthe-fix%2Fwp%2F2017%2F04%2F08%2Fmsnbc-hosts-conspiracy-theory-what-if-putin-planned-the-syrian-chemical-attack-to-help-trump%2F
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Inkslinger
04-08-17, 14:58
So who flew his planes? Or is the us mil lying? Or Trump?
Do you not realize how much surveillance and Intel we have over that area right now? awacs, satellites, drones?
Likewise, where is the outcry and proof from the syrians that it was false flag?
You won't see much from the Syrian side on our news outlets. Their official story, they flew the planes, they conducted an air strike, chemical weapons were in the target, doesn't seem to far fetched to me. We don't want to target chemical weapons storage facilities for the same reason.
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 15:09
[QUOTE=Arik;2477424]After they refused to report certain news I no longer see them as a credible news source
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE
This seems the pattern for all the news stations...no matter what side the political spectrum they reside.
My issue is that none of them are objective. Everyone has an agenda. Everyone pushes their own narrative.
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 15:28
So who flew his planes? Or is the us mil lying? Or Trump?
Do you not realize how much surveillance and Intel we have over that area right now? awacs, satellites, drones?
Likewise, where is the outcry and proof from the syrians that it was false flag?
Back somewhere I spoke to this. I'm quite sure we have some kind of IMINT/HUMINT/ELINT capability over there.
From rah perspective if I put my MI hat back on, I would have to question how we didn't pick up some chatter with our COMINT assets. We have to be intercepting comms. The Syrians had to have had some chatter on this op between them and their Russian buddies. How did we miss that? When the AC took off, how did we miss that signature? Granted we can't cover every square inch every second of every day. We don't have assets in the ground for that and even our Intel assets in orbit won't provide full coverage 24/7. But I would think we would have taskers through the DoD channels already and have some pretty solid IMINT/SIGINT in that space. I'm only a conspiracist on 4 day weekends but being a former MI guy, I have to admit I sure do have a lot of questions about what we knew and aren't saying we knew. And if we really didn't know, I'd wonder how we are tasking our assets over that geo space.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You won't see much from the Syrian side on our news outlets. Their official story, they flew the planes, they conducted an air strike, chemical weapons were in the target, doesn't seem to far fetched to me. We don't want to target chemical weapons storage facilities for the same reason.
Which is a load of crap. GB/GB2 (aka binary sarin) does not disperse agent when struck by a conventional munition. First, storage of the two components together would be retarded and defeats the purpose of a binary weapon- hence the fixed and mobile mixing apparatus found in Syria by OPCW in 2013. Second, the isopropyl alcohol component gets consumed in a big ball of flame when detonated prior to mixture. People who have any experience with nerve agents (and I have more than most) will tell you the Assad line does not hold water.
I'm not saying they're lying or that she's lying but their refusal to air certain news kills their credibility for me.
As for the actual gassing I don't believe it was Assad. I just don't see why he would when, like others have said, he's winning. And if he did then why not just gas Aleppo instead of having a long drawn out fight. I just don't see the point.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Why do most terrorist assholes like to kill helpless civilians - shock value to break the will of the population. While Assad has (now had?) the upper hand, he still faced a long road to victory with a battered military. Thus, he has shown very little reservations in the past when it comes to barrel bombing civilians with no strategic value, targeting hospitals, double taps against rescue workers, etc. All of that has been done to break the local population will while not garnering too much international attention. Gassing Aleppo, the international epicenter of humanitarian attention for 5 years, would have had even Putan condemning him.
Inkslinger
04-08-17, 16:58
Which is a load of crap. GB/GB2 (aka binary sarin) does not disperse agent when struck by a conventional munition. First, storage of the two components together would be retarded and defeats the purpose of a binary weapon- hence the fixed and mobile mixing apparatus found in Syria by OPCW in 2013. Second, the isopropyl alcohol component gets consumed in a big ball of flame when detonated prior to mixture. People who have any experience with nerve agents (and I have more than most) will tell you the Assad line does not hold water.
So what if the rebels were stupid enough to store the components together? What if the components were far enough removed from the direct impact and resulting blast to not be incinerated yet damaged enough to release? Did Assad gas his own people? Not impossible. Was it an unintentional result of air strikes? Not impossible. Was it rebels/isis trying to draw the US into action against Assad? Not impossible. Is it a perfect situation for a geopolitical chess game? Absolutely! Nobody gets the truth and that's my point. You can adamantly believe in one scenario until 10 years later you find out it was a lie and at that point nobody cares.
So what if the rebels were stupid enough to store the components together? What if the components were far enough removed from the direct impact and resulting blast to not be incinerated yet damaged enough to release? Did Assad gas his own people? Not impossible. Was it an unintentional result of air strikes? Not impossible. Was it rebels/isis trying to draw the US into action against Assad? Not impossible. Is it a perfect situation for a geopolitical chess game? Absolutely! Nobody gets the truth and that's my point. You can adamantly believe in one scenario until 10 years later you find out it was a lie and at that point nobody cares.
I'm not here to play the game called "Disprove My Wildass Question No Matter How Improbable the Premise." What I am here to tell you is that the excuse put forward by Assad and backed by Moscow is not grounded in science or a working knowledge of chemical weapons. Some might call that a clue as to who is telling the truth.
Back somewhere I spoke to this. I'm quite sure we have some kind of IMINT/HUMINT/ELINT capability over there.
From rah perspective if I put my MI hat back on, I would have to question how we didn't pick up some chatter with our COMINT assets. We have to be intercepting comms. The Syrians had to have had some chatter on this op between them and their Russian buddies. How did we miss that? When the AC took off, how did we miss that signature? Granted we can't cover every square inch every second of every day.
Why would you think we don't? I'm sure they did not say: "let's roll and gas some rebels and civvies".
Unless the Russians are running their giant jammer, we are probably vacuuming every bit of rf Comms in the area. There is a huge airspace deconflict effort there.
If there was any doubt it was someone other than Syrian pilots/aircraft they'd not have done the strike.
Inkslinger
04-08-17, 18:11
I'm not here to play the game called "Disprove My Wildass Question No Matter How Improbable the Premise." What I am here to tell you is that the excuse put forward by Assad and backed by Moscow is not grounded in science or a working knowledge of chemical weapons. Some might call that a clue as to who is telling the truth.
Well thank God you've been able to examine the scene and gather all the evidence to support the contrary.
Vietnam Veteran.... Must be!
I'm old, but not that damn old! I was born during the Vietnam War (1965) but I read a lot as a younger fellow about it and that phrase popped into my mind. You have to imagine it with the sing-song Radio Hanoi voice to it!
Well thank God you've been able to examine the scene and gather all the evidence to support the contrary.
Keep in mind that I'm not the one proposing or supporting any theories as to what happened. I'm just pointing out that a particular theory is not grounded in science or a working knowledge of the subject matter. I'm really sorry if that particular theory suited your fancy.
While I do not have access to the scene and evidence, I'll just point out that those who do (WHO, OPCW, US Intelligence, etc.) agree with me.
RobertTheTexan
04-08-17, 19:10
Why would you think we don't? I'm sure they did not say: "let's roll and gas some rebels and civvies".
Unless the Russians are running their giant jammer, we are probably vacuuming every bit of rf Comms in the area. There is a huge airspace deconflict effort there.
If there was any doubt it was someone other than Syrian pilots/aircraft they'd not have done the strike.
You might have missed the "I'm quite sure we have assets...." And although I've been out of the MI field for a while I haven't been out so long as to presume some dumbass is going to say "let's go gas some civvies." My point to suggesting that we have Imagery Intelligence, Electronics Intel, and Human Intel, is that while those sources are raw, we have people that take the raw intel and create the bigger picture. My point was I am surprised that they got all the way through the mission without us knowing. By saying I am surprised is also saying maybe we did know that. I don't know, I'm not in that loop anymore. Typically ECCM is employed against a specific sensor. They jam comms , they jam electronic sensors that pick up when an aircraft fires up his acquisition radar , if that tech was even used. They usually don't jam everything unless they are about to do some nasty stuff so that in itself is Intel. No it would "appear" they just took off in that SU-24 and flew out, did its business and flew back. How much we knew before during and after is above my current pay-grade :).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Inkslinger
04-08-17, 19:23
Keep in mind that I'm not the one proposing or supporting any theories as to what happened. I'm just pointing out that a particular theory is not grounded in science or a working knowledge of the subject matter. I'm really sorry if that particular theory suited your fancy.
While I do not have access to the scene and evidence, I'll just point out that those who do (WHO, OPCW, US Intelligence, etc.) agree with me.
I don't know, have the WHO, OPCW or US intelligence accessed the scene? I understand they are able to determine that chemical weapons were the cause of death, but are they showing evidence of the delivery during the air strike? Do we have intel on what payload the jets carried? Also, I may be mistaken, but aren't the 2013 attacks still disputed? Look, don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly believed that this was Assad, but it's also believable that it wasn't. He has more to loose by doing this with weapons that he supposedly doesn't have anymore. Did anyone oversee the destruction of WMB's that his opposition may possess?
No it would "appear" they just took off in that SU-24 and flew out, did its business and flew back. How much we knew before during and after is above my current pay-grade :).
Roger all, and same here. I expect they initially saw a routine flight that turned into an attack run. That later was determined to be gas.
Don't know that they could have predicted the gas attack based on typical Intel. But could for sure confirm who it was flying, and where they went. Hats what I was trying to point out. (To the false flag crowd).
Due to supposedly good intel we were sure Saddam had WMDs until we found out he really didn't. That got the sabers rattling like fast.
Please not this again. It's become popular to look back knowing what we know now and make it into a conspiracy.
At that time I don't recall ANYONE claiming Iraq didn't have WMD's. And that's because Iraq wanted their enemies to believe it. They chose to stay under UN sanctions and jerk the inspectors around to make it look like they were hiding it.
I don't think this can be made any more clear: We did not make up the idea that Iraq had WMD's, they did.
I'm old, but not that damn old! I was born during the Vietnam War (1965) but I read a lot as a younger fellow about it and that phrase popped into my mind. You have to imagine it with the sing-song Radio Hanoi voice to it!
I'm a bit over a decade younger than you but grew up hearing all kinds of 'Nam era slang.
I think I was one of the few kids I knew that had Shit on a Shingle when my old man fed me before kindergarten.
I use 10-codes at times just for brevity.
If one has ever read Ender's Game, it was spot on. The kids use word truncation and almost a form of Ebonics at times. People called it "unrealistic" but no. Drop a modern kid into 1993. he'd be lost a bit as people did not mince words
OT, but it is a glimpse into generational colloquialism
RobertTheTexan
04-09-17, 01:22
I'm old, but not that damn old! I was born during the Vietnam War (1965) but I read a lot as a younger fellow about it and that phrase popped into my mind. You have to imagine it with the sing-song Radio Hanoi voice to it!
Well hot damn AB! I'm a year older than you."HA!! (technically anyway:)
Yup I just turned the big fitty-tree yesterday, well technically the day before. Who's keeps track? Not me. Besides I swear look and feel 40 but don't tell anyone that, I'm sure they would hound me for my best kept anti-aging secrets you can only find at Thai/Cambodian owned nail salons. The Dinky dau is what got me.... I bet there aren't many who would pick up on that. You numma 10 GI! Is close but not quite the cigar. Youngster....
Lol couldn't resist!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know, have the WHO, OPCW or US intelligence accessed the scene?
Yes, samples from the scene are already been collected and processing is not that hard. Those samples were obtained from the bodies and clothing of victims. Forensic analysis is straight forward and can determined the agent, production method, etc. We can even determine how long the agent has been in in its "combined" state for binary agents based on the relative concentrations of agent vs. degradation products.
I understand they are able to determine that chemical weapons were the cause of death, but are they showing evidence of the delivery during the air strike?
Yes. This is very easy to determine. Munitions carrying agent create different blast patterns than conventional weapons. As I previously mentioned, agents dispersed by secondary detonations have different dispersal signatures than agents delivered on the most rudimentary vehicles. We can easily separate primary vs. secondary dispersal based on blast patterns, location of victims relative to blast, etc.
[/quote]
Do we have intel on what payload the jets carried?
Most likely yes. Witnesses during the strike have described the payloads and detonations as unique compared to previous attacks. In addition, US DOD reportedly had satellite images of the jets that delivered the payload. More important, we can analyze satellite images of the blast debris, fumes, etc. and correlate it with the location of casualties. This is an excellent means to determine if the agent came from munitions or a facility as they have different dispersal signatures. Unlike VX, sarin evaporates quickly so this satellite evidence is very helpful since soil and structure samples are low yield (it persists in fabric and tissue).
[quote]
Also, I may be mistaken, but aren't the 2013 attacks still disputed?
The 2013 attacks are disputed by Assad, Russia, and their supporters. However, forensic analysis has linked production of the agent from that attack to Assad's facility. Those who believe in science will say it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Evidence naysayers are now essentially claiming that the rebels have attacked themselves TWICE with nerve agent under a false flag ruse.
Look, don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly believed that this was Assad, but it's also believable that it wasn't. He has more to loose by doing this with weapons that he supposedly doesn't have anymore. Did anyone oversee the destruction of WMB's that his opposition may possess?
The task of supervising Assad's chemical disarmament was delegated to Russia which is why Secretary Tillerson has described the Russians as complicit or incompetent - there can be no other choice. As for Assad having nothing to gain, that opinion has been challenged by various editorials opinions. I'd say that he has plenty of motive to break the will of the population, and history (i.e. Obama) has taught him that he can use these weapons with impunity. You can disagree and have your own opinion, but the physical evidence is overwhelming IF you believe in science and what Trump et al is telling you...
Moose-Knuckle
04-09-17, 05:40
People who have any experience with nerve agents (and I have more than most) will tell you the Assad line does not hold water.
If Sarin was used in this attack how is it the first responders did not succumb to the nerve agent?
Note the watermark, this is an official photo disseminated to the world media by the Syrian Civil Defense's White Helmets. Four of the five White Helmet SAR first responders are bare handed wearing no gloves at all. None of them are wearing any type of CBRN / MOPP suits. The only PPE present is some respirators to include a N95 "dusk mask" donned by the guy spraying down the "victims".
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2821/33115897733_2e4be96eba_b.jpg
Again note the watermark, Syrian Civil Defense medial personal treating Sarin victim without any type of CBRN PPE whatsoever.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3804/33115897663_a14ab86587_z.jpg
Yes, samples from the scene are already been collected and processing is not that hard. Those samples were obtained from the bodies and clothing of victims. Forensic analysis is straight forward and can determined the agent, production method, etc.
IIRC the tissue samples taken from the victims have to compared to known samples of Assad's chemical weapons. Supposedly when Obama and McCain had those stockpiles destroyed samples were taken for this sort of thing. Do we have this evidence and test results back conclusively?
Yes, samples from the scene are already been collected and processing is not that hard. Those samples were obtained from the bodies and clothing of victims. Forensic analysis is straight forward and can determined the agent, production method, etc.
If the bodies of Sarin victims are contaminated with the nerve agent wouldn't the agent still be present on/in them after death thus contaminating those who come in contact with the remains?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2931/33085626864_a5f8d823bb_b.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
04-09-17, 06:06
While we are on the matter . . .
For those that are not up to speed on who the Syrian Civil Defense White Helmets are, here we see the SAR crisis actors at work plying their trade of hoaxes/false flags, and propaganda.
Mannequin Challenge winners!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiywQru7O7A
Also, anyone else ever notice how the media plasters dead Syrian children on every front page, website, etc. without any censoring of their little faces or bodies yet we NEVER see the faces or bodies of the victims of islamic terror attacks like in Stockholm, London, Brussels, Pairs, Nairobi, et al.?
When the mainstream media does show any those victims they are always covered up with tarps and the grotesque details of their torture and murders like that of the victims of the Westgate Mall in Nairobi and the Bataclan theater in Paris are not reported.
Outlander Systems
04-09-17, 07:51
https://media.makeameme.org/created/Im-not-going.jpg
If Sarin was used in this attack how is it the first responders did not succumb to the nerve agent?
Note the watermark, this is an official photo disseminated to the world media by the Syrian Civil Defense's White Helmets. Four of the five White Helmet SAR first responders are bare handed wearing no gloves at all. None of them are wearing any type of CBRN / MOPP suits. The only PPE present is some respirators to include a N95 "dusk mask" donned by the guy spraying down the "victims".
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2821/33115897733_2e4be96eba_b.jpg
Again note the watermark, Syrian Civil Defense medial personal treating Sarin victim without any type of CBRN PPE whatsoever.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3804/33115897663_a14ab86587_z.jpg
IIRC the tissue samples taken from the victims have to compared to known samples of Assad's chemical weapons. Supposedly when Obama and McCain had those stockpiles destroyed samples were taken for this sort of thing. Do we have this evidence and test results back conclusively?
If the bodies of Sarin victims are contaminated with the nerve agent wouldn't the agent still be present on/in them after death thus contaminating those who come in contact with the remains?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2931/33085626864_a5f8d823bb_b.jpg
Sarin is the most volatile of the nerve agents and quickly evaporates. Thus, it is an immediate and short-lived threat which best explains why rescue workers do not have serious neurotoxicity. Moreover, not everyone who comes in contact with Sarin dies or displays severe neurotoxicity. Some will have mild symptoms of muscle twitching, salivation, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. A lot of factors determine the lethality of an exposure including the preparation of the agent (affecting concentration), route (cutaneous, ingested, inhaled), dose, duration of exposure, time to treatment, etc. For example, deaths from the Ghouta attack, assuming that you believe it existed, number in the hundreds to a thousand, but over 3,000 people displayed neurotoxic symptoms ranging from mild muscle twitching to hyper secretion and seizures. Not everyone who was exposed died, and many had mild symposiums but were never treated.
So, there are a lot of reasons why the rescue workers in your pictures are not behaving how you think they should. It could be that some time has passed since the attack allowing most of the agent to evaporate. It could also be that most/sufficient of the decon had been performed to prevent serious toxicity. All of those reasons are a lot more plausible than your hoax theory which would now encompass Syrian Rebels, multiple international agencies, the Trump Administration including your Golden Boy himself, etc.
I completely get your point. However, it is highly unlikely that Saddam's stockpiles of Sarin could be maintained since 2002-2003. That is a big part of why the Trump Administration has referred to Russia as either complicit or incompetent...
skywalkrNCSU
04-09-17, 12:26
https://i.redd.it/rtrd5mjq5hqy.jpg
Please not this again. It's become popular to look back knowing what we know now and make it into a conspiracy.
At that time I don't recall ANYONE claiming Iraq didn't have WMD's. And that's because Iraq wanted their enemies to believe it. They chose to stay under UN sanctions and jerk the inspectors around to make it look like they were hiding it.
I don't think this can be made any more clear: We did not make up the idea that Iraq had WMD's, they did.
The justification for invading Iraq is they were actively developing WMDs which is heavily disputed. What we did find were old scattered caches of nerve agent made in the 80s in underground bunkers surrounded by tons of concrete. That story works well for Bush apologists, though.
The US also had buried concrete bunkers of WMDs manufactured decades ago. The issue with opening up theses concrete bunkers is the rockets leak. It takes an exorbitant amount of time to safely remove and dispose of the rockets. In Alabama alone it took over a decade to safely remove and incinerate caches of mustard, sarin and VX rockets. I worked at the site.
This rules out safe and fast transportation of old rockets. So that pokes a hole in the theory they were moved to Syria.
It also pokes holes in the story John Kerry told is that all of Assad's WMDs had been safely destroyed.
Newer rockets? Maybe. Older rockets I highly doubt.
The justification for invading Iraq is they were actively developing WMDs which is heavily disputed.
What we did find were old scattered caches of nerve agent made in the 80s in underground bunkers surrounded by tons of concrete. That story works well for Bush apologists, though.
The US also had buried concrete bunkers of WMDs manufactured decades ago. The issue with opening up theses concrete bunkers is the rockets leak. It takes an exorbitant amount of time to safely remove and dispose of the rockets. In Alabama alone it took over a decade to safely remove and incinerate caches of mustard, sarin and VX rockets. I worked at the site.
This rules out safe and fast transportation of old rockets. So that pokes a hole in the theory they were moved to Syria.
It also pokes holes in the story John Kerry told is that all of Assad's WMDs had been safely destroyed.
Newer rockets? Maybe. Older rockets I highly doubt.
My understanding was post fact showed they were not to a high degree of certainty. What seems disputed is whether the Bush admin ever legit thought they were, or wanted an excuse to invade. I strongly suspect the latter personally but no smoking gun I'm aware of.
Outlander Systems
04-09-17, 13:34
LOL
That's awesome.
https://i.redd.it/rtrd5mjq5hqy.jpg
MountainRaven
04-09-17, 14:03
You are assuming Assad is a sane and rational person.
Is there evidence outside of this attack that Assad is insane and/or irrational?
But I agree a LOT of things don't make sense. As for credibility, that really fluctuates from generation to generation, administration to administration. To suggest that the US governments of FDR, John Kennedy, Teddy Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton are essentially the same thing is pretty absurd. None of them were perfect, but I think that holds true for every form of government in the world since the beginning of civilization. I could probably find some credibility problems that predate 1846. We stated "all men are created equal" while owning slaves, so right from the outset we didn't exactly live up to our stated ideals.
I'm just saying: People who are surprised that the US government lies to them must not have read a history book - or at least not a very good one. People who are surprised that the US government spies on them must not have read a history book - or at least not a very good one.
&c., ad nauseum.
A) the us mil/Intel made up the radar tracks and drone footage? And tricked Trump?
B) someone in Syria managed to steal the planes, load them with chem weapons, attack, and then land without capture by Assad's forces?
C) Trump made up the whole thing, and blackmailed Mattis and others into going along with it?
Speaking of not reading history books....
Gulf of Tonkin incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident)
Sinking of the USS Maine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)#Sinking)
Skirmish at the Neuces Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican–American_War#Initial_skirmish_at_the_Nueces_Strip) (of particular note are passages taken from a Lieutenant Ulysses S. Grant's diary)
Sinking of the RMS Lusitania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_RMS_Lusitania#Contraband_and_second_explosion)
Is there evidence outside of this attack that Assad is insane and/or irrational?
I suppose that depends on whether you consider mass murder of civilians to be rational during a war. Before you claim that all sides commit atrocities in a conflict, would you be cool with the US dropping cluster munitions into civilian areas of Iraq or Afghanistan every time an IED hit a US convoy?
MountainRaven
04-09-17, 16:24
I suppose that depends on whether you consider mass murder of civilians to be rational during a war. Before you claim that all sides commit atrocities in a conflict, would you be cool with the US dropping cluster munitions into civilian areas of Iraq or Afghanistan every time an IED hit a US convoy?
There are members of this forum who consider Major General Wm. T. Sherman a war criminal for what he did during the American Civil War.
I'm not cool with the Syrian air force dropping "barrel bombs" on their own civilians.
However, Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds and we did... nothing.
The North Koreans run Nazi-style death camps, complete with gas chambers, and we do nothing.
So you'll forgive me if I'm cynical about the sudden urge to do something about a particular, recent offender when nobody says anything about every other bad actor who mass murders their own people on the planet, some of whom have been doing it for decades.
There are members of this forum who consider Major General Wm. T. Sherman a war criminal for what he did during the American Civil War.
I'm not cool with the Syrian air force dropping "barrel bombs" on their own civilians.
However, Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds and we did... nothing.
The North Koreans run Nazi-style death camps, complete with gas chambers, and we do nothing.
So you'll forgive me if I'm cynical about the sudden urge to do something about a particular, recent offender when nobody says anything about every other bad actor who mass murders their own people on the planet, some of whom have been doing it for decades.
You don't think that punishing Assad was the only reason, or the only benefit, for/of launching those 59 Tomahawks, do you?
Inkslinger
04-09-17, 16:37
You don't think that punishing Assad was the only reason, or the only benefit, for/of launching those 59 Tomahawks, do you?
Do you think the other bullies on the block were phased by us roughing up an airport?
Do you think the other bullies on the block were phased by us roughing up an airport?
Absolutely. I think it sent multiple useful messages to multiple enemies, foreign and domestic.
Outlander Systems
04-09-17, 16:46
This.
Absolutely. I think it sent multiple useful messages to multiple enemies, foreign and domestic.
Inkslinger
04-09-17, 16:47
Absolutely. I think it sent multiple useful messages to multiple enemies, foreign and domestic.
Yeah, I'm sure NK and Russia are shaking in their boots. We bombed that airfield so hard it was almost 24 hours before the could launch anymore airstikes from it...
Yeah, I'm sure NK and Russia are shaking in their boots. We bombed that airfield so hard it was almost 24 hours before the could launch anymore airstikes from it...
By focusing on the BDA, you missed the message(s).
Inkslinger
04-09-17, 16:49
By focusing on the BDA, you missed the message(s).
I didn't miss the message, I just think you're overestimating the weight that it carried to those it was meant for.
Outlander Systems
04-09-17, 17:04
STEEL FUEL CAN'T MELT JET BEAMS!
I didn't miss the message, I just think you're overestimating the weight that it carried to those it was meant for.
I understand. We interpret and assess the news reporting differently. http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/images/smilies2/toast.gif
There are members of this forum who consider Major General Wm. T. Sherman a war criminal for what he did during the American Civil War.
I'm not cool with the Syrian air force dropping "barrel bombs" on their own civilians.
However, Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds and we did... nothing.
The North Koreans run Nazi-style death camps, complete with gas chambers, and we do nothing.
So you'll forgive me if I'm cynical about the sudden urge to do something about a particular, recent offender when nobody says anything about every other bad actor who mass murders their own people on the planet, some of whom have been doing it for decades.
After Assad (was accused) of doing it the first time, Trump strongly and repeatedly said Obama should not retaliate via his favorite media venue. He didn't just say it once, and he was not vague about it. Now, Assad does the identical thing, and Trump does a 180 (where have we heard that before?), and sends missiles. I'm obviously not privy as to why that went from being a really bad idea (according the Trump) to a good idea once POTUS.
If the entire thing was to send a message to the world a new sheriff is in town, fine, but best not to do it via a strike he was VERY public about opposing. Just makes him seem that much less believable or credible both in the US and internationally. Sink a few Iranian gun boats, etc. to make it clear pappa Trump is not gonna tolerate nonsense as Obama did.
Obviously, we can go back to the whole reason the place is cluster and we don't come out looking too good on that score either.
Personally, I think Obama should have sent missiles the first time WMDs were used (or never made the threat to begin with) and Trump should have supported it. Just opposing Obama on anything and everything to get elected was not a good long term strategy.
Initial emotionality aside, the world is indeed in color.
Let's wait and see where this goes.
Could be good, could be bad.
I will say if it made the world do a Double Take then maybe the world will slow its roll.
In this thread, I'm seeing a level of complexity to this whole incident that I'm not sure is warranted. I think it's likely a lot simpler, and with a lot less conspiracy, than what I'm reading here.
Trump changed his mind. Why is that a big deal, why is it surprising?
In this thread, I'm seeing a level of complexity to this whole incident that I'm not sure is warranted. I think it's likely a lot simpler, and with a lot less conspiracy, than what I'm reading here.
Trump changed his mind. Why is that a big deal, why is it surprising?
I dunno. Maybe someone just needed a rocket attack. Geopolitics aside, it dod get people thinking
In this thread, I'm seeing a level of complexity to this whole incident that I'm not sure is warranted. I think it's likely a lot simpler, and with a lot less conspiracy, than what I'm reading here.
Trump changed his mind. Why is that a big deal, why is it surprising?
He was, and apparently continues to be, a serial flip flopper of the highest order. Personally not against that strike per se (as i say, Obama should have held to his threat or never made it), but confused by it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised however.
Obviously the only real way we will really know if it sent a larger message is how others react to it, and that we'll just have to watch and see I guess.
I dunno. Maybe someone just needed a rocket attack. Geopolitics aside, it dod get people thinking
Yes. Among other messages, we also have 100,000 tons of diplomacy headed back toward Korea. Included in that battle group are several destroyers each carrying about 35 Tomahawks.
He was, and apparently continues to be, a serial flip flopper of the highest order. Personally not against that strike per se (as i say, Obama should have held to his threat or never made it), but confused by it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised however.
So, it's a good thing that he flip-flopped, and that presidential action might be different than campaign rhetoric? Are you upset because he's doing the wrong things, or because he's not predictable to you?
I dunno. Maybe someone just needed a rocket attack. Geopolitics aside, it dod get people thinking
I know geo politics are damn complicated, but it's like if you're gonna rocket attack someone (and those things aint cheap either and payed for by you and I), don't tell them it's coming, avoid making them work too hard by actually really damaging the airstrip etc to make a show of it. If we're too worried about the Russian response, then don't do it. I expect this global game chit from life long politicians, but you know, Trump promised we was a different kind of cat.
So, it's a good thing that he flip-flopped,
You know I didn't say that brother. Whether it turns out to be a good idea or a really bad one (as he said was...) remains to be seen in my view.
and that presidential action might be different than campaign rhetoric? Are you upset because he's doing the wrong things, or because he's not predictable to you?
I'm not upset :dance3:
Is there evidence outside of this attack that Assad is insane and/or irrational?
I'm just saying: People who are surprised that the US government lies to them must not have read a history book - or at least not a very good one. People who are surprised that the US government spies on them must not have read a history book - or at least not a very good one.
&c., ad nauseum.
Speaking of not reading history books....
Gulf of Tonkin incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident)
Sinking of the USS Maine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)#Sinking)
Skirmish at the Neuces Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican–American_War#Initial_skirmish_at_the_Nueces_Strip) (of particular note are passages taken from a Lieutenant Ulysses S. Grant's diary)
Sinking of the RMS Lusitania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_RMS_Lusitania#Contraband_and_second_explosion)
To clarify, the first Gulf of Tonkin incident DID happen (there are pics of North Vietnamese PT boats) in broad daylight. The second one is the one questioned by most since it happened at night.
You don't think that punishing Assad was the only reason, or the only benefit, for/of launching those 59 Tomahawks, do you?
No, it wasn't. See my earlier post. There were a lot of signals sent, and not all in the Middle East.
Those moaning about missing the runway, etc. It's a Russian style hardened runway. Would take a different weapon, and would still be easily repairable.
Taking out the planes inside the hardened hangers and support infrastructure hits far harder than putting holes in the runway. And is a very cool tomahawk trick!
Those moaning about missing the runway, etc. It's a Russian style hardened runway. Would take a different weapon, and would still be easily repairable.
Taking out the planes inside the hardened hangers and support infrastructure hits far harder than putting holes in the runway. And is a very cool tomahawk trick!
Right. No need to repair a runway when there's not much to fly off of it!
If Sarin was used in this attack how is it the first responders did not succumb to the nerve agent?
I had a secondary (actually tertiary) 54E MOS a long time ago. IIRC Sarin is a non-persistent agent, it is used for casualty production, not area denial. Heat, humidity and wind will factor into how long an area is unsafe. It can be delivered as a liquid, aerosol, or vapor. Quickest routes in - respiratory, through the eyes, ingested (not likely) absorption through skin.
Big question - how long after the attacks were the photos taken? What were the environmental conditions?
Again note the watermark, Syrian Civil Defense medial personal treating Sarin victim without any type of CBRN PPE whatsoever.
Going by the evidence that the guy is in an exam/treatment bay - IV rack, table adjacent to IV rack, him apparently on an exam table - he has been removed from the source. Decon can be as simple as remove from source, remove garments, wash down. Even without a wash down he may not cross contaminate based on these factors.
If the bodies of Sarin victims are contaminated with the nerve agent wouldn't the agent still be present on/in them after death thus contaminating those who come in contact with the remains?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2931/33085626864_a5f8d823bb_b.jpg
It is not a virus. It can be washed away, with simple water.
Admittedly, the PPE is not what you would expect to see in the US.
Right. No need to repair a runway when there's not much to fly off of it!
If they were SU-24s like it appeared, and was reported to be used in the gas attack, they would be about $40-50M each to replace based on the price in 97. Maybe Russia will cut them a deal.
But that's a pretty good ROI relative to the cost of tomahawks ($800k in today's $$).
Trump changed his mind. Why is that a big deal, why is it surprising?
You mean kind of like I changed my mind about premarital sex once I had daughters? i.e. shoe was on the other foot.
1st. I didn't know SU-24s were that expensive.
2nd. I'm actually surprised the hippies haven't started crying about the racist name of Tomahawk missile. That's Cultural Appropriation!
3rd. No seriously, I thought rich dudes bought Russian fighter jets for fun they are allegedly so cheap.
Per the Cost of Tomahawks, meh.....59 wont break me. If we start getting a bit light we can always cut into welfare.
You mean kind of like I changed my mind about premarital sex once I had daughters? i.e. shoe was on the other foot.
Exactly like that. Your job changes, your outlook changes.
1st. I didn't know SU-24s were that expensive.
$25M in 97. One place showing $37M now.
Of course, Putin will give them some now just to one up Trump.
Btw, this is the sukhoi I want:
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/1228.jpg
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraftimage/Sukhoi-Be-103-Photo-3/1230
Sukhoi Be-103 Amphibian. Only $1.45M, I'll pick you up at Lake Allatona!
I did really, really want to buy a Lake Bucaneer in my pre-kids days, came close. But logic prevailed.
RobertTheTexan
04-09-17, 19:57
After Assad (was accused) of doing it the first time, Trump strongly and repeatedly said Obama should not retaliate via his favorite media venue. He didn't just say it once, and he was not vague about it. Now, Assad does the identical thing, and Trump does a 180 (where have we heard that before?), and sends missiles. I'm obviously not privy as to why that went from being a really bad idea (according the Trump) to a good idea once POTUS.
.
I don't know that this is the case, but I can see how his perspective could have changed once he felt the weight of the mantle of leadership as President of the United States. Clearly he had no comparable experience, he could only offer best guesses in terms of how he would respond to something as POTUS. So I think that it would be fairly reasonable to see his pre-election attitude towards some things change after the weight of responsibility is felt. Not trying to give him a free ride, just remembering certain attitudes I had that changed once I became a leader of soldiers, or even after becoming a Dad.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RobertTheTexan
04-09-17, 20:02
You mean kind of like I changed my mind about premarital sex once I had daughters? i.e. shoe was on the other foot.
I hate it when I don't read all the way through the thread before I reply. This was much more eloquent than my post.
Exactly like that. Your job changes, your outlook changes.
This was so much more succinct.
I need a nap...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RobertTheTexan
04-09-17, 20:05
$25M in 97. One place showing $37M now.
Of course, Putin will give them some now just to one up Trump.
Btw, this is the sukhoi I want:
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/1228.jpg
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraftimage/Sukhoi-Be-103-Photo-3/1230
Sukhoi Be-103 Amphibian. Only $1.45M, I'll pick you up at Lake Allatona!
I did really, really want to buy a Lake Bucaneer in my pre-kids days, came close. But logic prevailed.
I think you did a lot better than me. I was only part owner of a 30yr old Cessna 152. Butterscotch. It was butterscotch. I didn't know whether to fly it or throw up on it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think you did a lot better than me. I was only part owner of a 30yr old Cessna 152. Butterscotch. It was butterscotch. I didn't know whether to fly it or throw up on it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Gotta kiss alot of frogs... I think I tire kicked a Beech musketeer that was butterscotch and heavy. Was very close to going half in on a Grumman tiger, that one I regret. (Great plane, poor man's Mooney)
RobertTheTexan
04-09-17, 20:11
$25M in 97. One place showing $37M now.
Of course, Putin will give them some now just to one up Trump.
Btw, this is the sukhoi I want:
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft_images/1228.jpg
https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraftimage/Sukhoi-Be-103-Photo-3/1230
Sukhoi Be-103 Amphibian. Only $1.45M, I'll pick you up at Lake Allatona!
I did really, really want to buy a Lake Bucaneer in my pre-kids days, came close. But logic prevailed.
But seriously if you ever do get an aircraft like this, I have mad aerial navigation skills. We can mount a FLIR and run low level ops for parents with daughters on their first date. I can definitely identity fornication with FLIR.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Eurodriver
04-09-17, 20:16
would you be cool with the US dropping cluster munitions into civilian areas of Iraq or Afghanistan every time an IED hit a US convoy?
Today? No.
In 2004? Well...
But seriously if you ever do get an aircraft like this, I have mad aerial navigation skills. We can mount a FLIR and run low level ops for parents with daughters on their first date.
The fun we could have... Back on topic, Trump's view changed just like a parent with a daughter. (Hey, it was related)
You know what....
We blame Trump, Blame Russia, blame everybody, etc
I blame the Syrians. This could aaalll stop today if they wanted it to.
Nope, muh huly buuk, muh huly war, and muh tribes.
They claim all this ancient civilization and all that but can't stop being on BS. Tear up their own shit then wanna move elsewhere blah blah blah.
Has anyone, anyone at all, in Syrian leadership actually sat down and asked "Howdafuq did we get here?"
Doesn't have to be this way.
This os all Syria's fault. Enough of them need to say "We're done. We quit. Not worth the effort. Let's get some Cable TV back, some pizza, and chill".
All they are doing is basically being the Berlin of the ME. You got two functional superpowers in your shit
No. Not good. Not good. Time to call it a day.
Honestly, I dont feel bad for them. No Syrian lays awake at night worrying about how I am doing. They did this all to themselves directly and indirectly.
Howdafuq do you go from Arab Alliance going after Saddam in '91 to having your entire country a shitshow in 2017?
"Well America invaded...."
No. Let me stop you there. People had opportunities. People could have policed their own. People could have stayed in their little shitholes and kept to themselves.
Nope. Nothing but mediocrity and excuses revolving around BS nobody cares about.
Sad to say, I probably blaspheme a lot in a day. Will God punish me? Probably. Am I going to Hell when I die? Probably.
Will it be like a Rammstein video with fire, rock music, and horny nekkid Succubi? No, most likely not.
But see, I am okay with that. I accept my fate. I accept my eternal consequences.
Call me surly and outspoken but everybody over there needs to go to Lowe's, buy a ladder, and get over themselves.
JM2C
After Assad (was accused) of doing it the first time, Trump strongly and repeatedly said Obama should not retaliate via his favorite media venue. He didn't just say it once, and he was not vague about it. Now, Assad does the identical thing, and Trump does a 180 (where have we heard that before?), and sends missiles. I'm obviously not privy as to why that went from being a really bad idea (according the Trump) to a good idea once POTUS.
If the entire thing was to send a message to the world a new sheriff is in town, fine, but best not to do it via a strike he was VERY public about opposing. Just makes him seem that much less believable* or credible both in the US and internationally. Sink a few Iranian gun boats, etc. to make it clear pappa Trump is not gonna tolerate nonsense as Obama did.
Obviously, we can go back to the whole reason the place is cluster and we don't come out looking too good on that score either.
Personally, I think Obama should have sent missiles the first time WMDs were used (or never made the threat to begin with) and Trump should have supported it. Just opposing Obama on anything and everything to get elected was not a good long term strategy.
I hate to be 'that guy' but people were kicking and screaming for war authorization against Libya in 2012 and rightly so. Jeff Sessions gave Obama's SecDef at the time Leon Panetta a serious ass chewing. Now there's not so much demand for war authorization. Maybe the situations are actually that much different and I just don't recall 2012 as clearly.
I think Trump may have felt he didn't have a choice. He has people like Nikki Hayley, ambassador to the UN, who was basically a #NeverTrump 'er of you recall. He can't keep firing people and they are probably trying to play him like he played them.
Pressure from war hawks and Nikki running around literally with pictures in her hands of dead babies may have forced Trump's hand.
You mean kind of like I changed my mind about premarital sex once I had daughters? i.e. shoe was on the other foot.
Bahahahahahahahahahaha
Many a father has experienced this shift!
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
But seriously if you ever do get an aircraft like this, I have mad aerial navigation skills. We can mount a FLIR and run low level ops for parents with daughters on their first date. I can definitely identity fornication with FLIR.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
PM inbound, daughter daters beware!
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 00:03
To clarify, the first Gulf of Tonkin incident DID happen (there are pics of North Vietnamese PT boats) in broad daylight. The second one is the one questioned by most since it happened at night.
To clarify, the US government said that the Vietnamese opened fire on the Navy without provocation. Only in 2005 was an NSA document declassified showing that the Navy fired first.
This os all Syria's fault. Enough of them need to say "We're done. We quit. Not worth the effort. Let's get some Cable TV back, some pizza, and chill".
I believe it was Mark Bowden in his book Black Hawk Down who made the observation that everybody wants peace. But some people want victory more than peace. I would suggest that the three largest parties in the Syrian conflict (Kurds, ISIS, Assad's forces) definitely want victory more than they want peace, but all want peace (the Kurds want peace in a free and independent Kurdish state, ISIS wants peace following the arrival of God and the Kingdom of Heaven, and Assad wants his secular dictatorship back).
1st. I didn't know SU-24s were that expensive.
2nd. I'm actually surprised the hippies haven't started crying about the racist name of Tomahawk missile. That's Cultural Appropriation!
3rd. No seriously, I thought rich dudes bought Russian fighter jets for fun they are allegedly so cheap.
Per the Cost of Tomahawks, meh.....59 wont break me. If we start getting a bit light we can always cut into welfare.
Got some stick time in last night on some Antifa feminist wannabe black power hippies last night who were going cray over the Don Cheetos work. I should of asked them about the missiles lol.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
RobertTheTexan
04-10-17, 02:05
To clarify, the US government said that the Vietnamese opened fire on the Navy without provocation. Only in 2005 was an NSA document declassified showing that the Navy fired first.
I believe it was Mark Bowden in his book Black Hawk Down who made the observation that everybody wants peace....
ISIS wants peace following the arrival of God and the Kingdom of Heaven.
I had no idea peace and ISIS could seriously be used in the same sentence. I didn't think that once their caliphate is set up that they would all of a sudden lay down their arms and remote detonators. But then again everyone else is the world would be dead, so maybe they won't resort to killing each other. Although I can see that happening too. You really think their endgame is peace-centric?
I thought it was more dominion focused. Serious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I had no idea peace and ISIS could seriously be used in the same sentence. I didn't think that once their caliphate is set up that they would all of a sudden lay down their arms and remote detonators. But then again everyone else is the world would be dead, so maybe they won't resort to killing each other. Although I can see that happening too. You really think their endgame is peace-centric?
I thought it was more dominion focused. Serious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd argue peace is largely a relative term
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
04-10-17, 04:08
Sarin is the most volatile of the nerve agents and quickly evaporates. Thus, it is an immediate and short-lived threat which best explains why rescue workers do not have serious neurotoxicity. Moreover, not everyone who comes in contact with Sarin dies or displays severe neurotoxicity. Some will have mild symptoms of muscle twitching, salivation, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. A lot of factors determine the lethality of an exposure including the preparation of the agent (affecting concentration), route (cutaneous, ingested, inhaled), dose, duration of exposure, time to treatment, etc.
I appreciate your medical expertise on the matter concerning chemical weapons.
Moose-Knuckle
04-10-17, 04:17
It is not a virus. It can be washed away, with simple water.
Admittedly, the PPE is not what you would expect to see in the US.
Appreciate your input, figured we had some members here who had a former MOS that put them in close proximity to this nasty shit.
I can't imagine a chemical attack or an industrial accident NOT being met with full on Level A HAZMAT kit here in CONUS.
I had no idea peace and ISIS could seriously be used in the same sentence. I didn't think that once their caliphate is set up that they would all of a sudden lay down their arms and remote detonators. But then again everyone else is the world would be dead, so maybe they won't resort to killing each other. Although I can see that happening too. You really think their endgame is peace-centric?
I thought it was more dominion focused. Serious.
Given their apocalyptic (literally) religious beliefs, peace will never be in the cards. They are trying to bring about end of times (their definition) and key battles with the west is part of it. As is the Caliphate.
AQ had a similar belief, with OBL taking a different approach to try to achieve the same end.
One thing: The caliphate requires holding territory. And without the caliphate, the conditions of the (bogus) prophecy are not met. So reclaiming territory from ISIS control in Iraq is key, as it reduces/illegitimizes the caliphate.
But it's way more complex... I now see how the US played right into OBL's attempt to bring about the prophecy. And we have to be careful not to add energy with ISIS's beliefs. IE: Assess our actions to make sure it does not add energy to their efforts.
Which then involves Syria, a battle between "the armies of Rome" (The West) and islam is a key part of the prophecy. The plains of Dabiq, near Allepo, is where it's supposed to happen. So any military action in Syria could be seen as the start of that part (condition) being fulfilled, and then add energy to the ISIS cause.
This is getting a bit old, but this Atlantic article is still pretty accurate and is a good backgrounder on ISIS beliefs: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Sarin is the most volatile of the nerve agents and quickly evaporates. Thus, it is an immediate and short-lived threat which best explains why rescue workers do not have serious neurotoxicity. Moreover, not everyone who comes in contact with Sarin dies or displays severe neurotoxicity. Some will have mild symptoms of muscle twitching, salivation, vomiting, diarrhea, etc. A lot of factors determine the lethality of an exposure including the preparation of the agent (affecting concentration), route (cutaneous, ingested, inhaled), dose, duration of exposure, time to treatment, etc. For example, deaths from the Ghouta attack, assuming that you believe it existed, number in the hundreds to a thousand, but over 3,000 people displayed neurotoxic symptoms ranging from mild muscle twitching to hyper secretion and seizures. Not everyone who was exposed died, and many had mild symposiums but were never treated.
Actually, with sarin your skin boils and melts off, and the only antidote is an intracardiac injection. Or was it VX? I saw it on the documentary The Rock.
To clarify, the US government said that the Vietnamese opened fire on the Navy without provocation. Only in 2005 was an NSA document declassified showing that the Navy fired first.
From "The National Security Archive":
Washington, D.C., 1 December 2005 - The largest U.S. intelligence agency, the National Security Agency, today declassified over 140 formerly top secret documents -- histories, chronologies, signals intelligence [SIGINT] reports, and oral history interviews -- on the August 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident. Included in the release is a controversial article by Agency historian Robert J. Hanyok on SIGINT and the Tonkin Gulf which confirms what historians have long argued: that there was no second attack on U.S. ships in Tonkin on August 4, 1964. According to National Security Archive research fellow John Prados, "the American people have long deserved to know the full truth about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The National Security Agency is to be commended for releasing this piece of the puzzle. The parallels between the faulty intelligence on Tonkin Gulf and the manipulated intelligence used to justify the Iraq War make it all the more worthwhile to re-examine the events of August 1964 in light of new evidence." Last year, Prados edited a National Security Archive briefing book which published for the first time some of the key intercepts from the Gulf of Tonkin crisis.
See that word "controversial"? It also places more emphasis on the second attack not occurring. Don't see anything about the Navy firing first on Aug. 2, 1964.
The USS Maddox fired 3 warning shots as the NV PT boats closed in on them, which is still SOP to this day, you know the proverbial "shot across the bow"? The PT boats then went into attack mode.
Try again.
I had no idea peace and ISIS could seriously be used in the same sentence. I didn't think that once their caliphate is set up that they would all of a sudden lay down their arms and remote detonators. But then again everyone else is the world would be dead, so maybe they won't resort to killing each other. Although I can see that happening too. You really think their endgame is peace-centric?
I thought it was more dominion focused. Serious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Peace to them is when there is no one left to fight and no one left to do the fighting.
Appreciate your input, figured we had some members here who had a former MOS that put them in close proximity to this nasty shit.
I can't imagine a chemical attack or an industrial accident NOT being met with full on Level A HAZMAT kit here in CONUS.
I agree totally, but I've come to understand that other places are a lot more casual. We also don't do full mag dumps into the sky to celebrate New Years! :cool:
Actually, with sarin your skin boils and melts off, and the only antidote is an intracardiac injection. Or was it VX? I saw it on the documentary The Rock.
I don't know, I get The Rock and Pulp Fiction confused all the time. Maybe that is why all my heroin overdoses keep dying?
Anyway, I don't think it's any secret that I'm a Trump skeptic. However, I believe Trump when he says there there was enough evidence to stick a few Tomahawks up Assad's ass to prevent or deter more attacks. Now, there is plenty of time for us to sit back and debate the merits of regime change vs. containment.
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 12:07
From "The National Security Archive":
Washington, D.C., 1 December 2005 - The largest U.S. intelligence agency, the National Security Agency, today declassified over 140 formerly top secret documents -- histories, chronologies, signals intelligence [SIGINT] reports, and oral history interviews -- on the August 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident. Included in the release is a controversial article by Agency historian Robert J. Hanyok on SIGINT and the Tonkin Gulf which confirms what historians have long argued: that there was no second attack on U.S. ships in Tonkin on August 4, 1964. According to National Security Archive research fellow John Prados, "the American people have long deserved to know the full truth about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The National Security Agency is to be commended for releasing this piece of the puzzle. The parallels between the faulty intelligence on Tonkin Gulf and the manipulated intelligence used to justify the Iraq War make it all the more worthwhile to re-examine the events of August 1964 in light of new evidence." Last year, Prados edited a National Security Archive briefing book which published for the first time some of the key intercepts from the Gulf of Tonkin crisis.
See that word "controversial"? It also places more emphasis on the second attack not occurring. Don't see anything about the Navy firing first on Aug. 2, 1964.
The USS Maddox fired 3 warning shots as the NV PT boats closed in on them, which is still SOP to this day, you know the proverbial "shot across the bow"? The PT boats then went into attack mode.
Try again.
From the Pentagon Papers:
"At 1500G, Captain Herrick (commander of Maddox) ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G, Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first."
So lets say some dudes wearing red bandanas have been causing problems in your neighborhood recently. One just moments ago broke into your neighbor's house and stole a bunch of their stuff. Now you see another guy wearing a red bandana walking in front of your house. You go out to keep an eye on him and hopefully to drive him off. He draws a gun and fires three shots in front of you.
"And then what happened?"
"Well, then I drew my handgun and shot back at him."
The officer sighs, "Sir, give me your hands."
"What!? Why?"
"You're under arrest for attempted murder."
"But he was shooting at me!"
"Sir, those were warning shots. Give me your hands."
And the official version the DA goes to the Grand Jury with - and that you go to court with - is that you fired first. And because there is no discovery in politics, the only evidence that is admitted to the court is that which the DA furnishes. Fortunately, they don't throw you in prison: They just start sending more guys in red bandanas to your neighborhood.
Either way, the government lied to the American public as an excuse to get more deeply involved in a stupid conflict we never should have been involved in.
Gee, that kinda sounds familiar doesn't it?At 1500G, Captain Herrick (commander of Maddox) ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G, Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first.
I don't know, I get The Rock and Pulp Fiction confused all the time. Maybe that is why all my heroin overdoses keep dying?
Anyway, I don't think it's any secret that I'm a Trump skeptic. However, I believe Trump when he says there there was enough evidence to stick a few Tomahawks up Assad's ass to prevent or deter more attacks. Now, there is plenty of time for us to sit back and debate the merits of regime change vs. containment.
The results are back.
containment
regime change
Every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Destabilization of hostile Islamic lands is folly, which runs counter to just about every other situation.
Either way, the government lied to the American public as an excuse to get more deeply involved in a stupid conflict we never should have been involved in.
Should have never been involved in?
Dude, without that conflict the Nguyen family and thousands like them would have never come to America to open up all those cool Vietnamese restaurants. Their fresh spring rolls are to die for...really.
1st. I didn't know SU-24s were that expensive.
2nd. I'm actually surprised the hippies haven't started crying about the racist name of Tomahawk missile. That's Cultural Appropriation!
3rd. No seriously, I thought rich dudes bought Russian fighter jets for fun they are allegedly so cheap.
Per the Cost of Tomahawks, meh.....59 wont break me. If we start getting a bit light we can always cut into welfare.
You spoke too soon:
https://heatst.com/culture-wars/prominent-editor-mocked-for-saying-tomahawk-missiles-are-offensive-to-native-americans/
I'm actually surprised the hippies haven't started crying about the racist name of Tomahawk missile. That's Cultural Appropriation!
Andddd there it is...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/09/liberal-magazine-editor-triggered-by-culture-appropriating-tomahawk-missiles-gets-brutal-mocking/amp/
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 12:43
Should have never been involved in?
Dude, without that conflict the Nguyen family and thousands like them would have never come to America to open up all those cool Vietnamese restaurants. Their fresh spring rolls are to die for...really.
So you visit the Vietnam War Memorial after stopping by the Best Damned Vietnamese Food Truck in the District of Columbia, gaze upon the 50,000+ names written there while enjoying your delicious fresh spring roll and think... totally worth it?
Will you do the same with shawarma whenever GWOT gets a memorial?
:P
Andddd there it is...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/09/liberal-magazine-editor-triggered-by-culture-appropriating-tomahawk-missiles-gets-brutal-mocking/amp/
I was just going to post this. If only I was 4 minutes faster!
And the official version the DA goes to the Grand Jury with - and that you go to court with - is that you fired first. And because there is no discovery in politics, the only evidence that is admitted to the court is that which the DA furnishes. Fortunately, they don't throw you in prison: They just start sending more guys in red bandanas to your neighborhood.
Either way, the government lied to the American public as an excuse to get more deeply involved in a stupid conflict we never should have been involved in.
Gee, that kinda sounds familiar doesn't it?At 1500G, Captain Herrick (commander of Maddox) ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G, Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first.
This wasn't a criminal case. Warning shots are fired, and acceptable, in maritime doings when a impending threat is closing the distance. If the NV PT boats had paralleled the Maddox, no shots would have been fired. In fact, even your liberal reference the NY Times (who published the anti-war "Pentagon Papers") called them "warning shots".
So if in the Persian Gulf an Iranian zodiac is zooming in on an American destroyer, and that U.S. ship fires a burst as a warning (not AT, but in the vicinity of), and the Iranian vessel in turn opens up AT the American ship itself, who "fired" the first shots in hostility?
Aug. 4, 1964 likely nothing happened but shooting at radar shadows. Aug. 2, 1964 was a different story. You're parsing words here and you know it. The Maddox fired warning shots at an impending threat. BFD. Then the PT boats attacked. Not much to dispute.
RobertTheTexan
04-10-17, 12:47
Should have never been involved in?
Dude, without that conflict the Nguyen family and thousands like them would have never come to America to open up all those cool Vietnamese restaurants. Their fresh spring rolls are to die for...really.
Dat Nguyen spring rolls are the best
Or is it Dem Nguyen spring rolls?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dat Nguyen spring rolls are the best
Or is it Dem Nguyen spring rolls?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dim sum good spring rolls. ;)
So you visit the Vietnam War Memorial after stopping by the Best Damned Vietnamese Food Truck in the District of Columbia, gaze upon the 50,000+ names written there while enjoying your delicious fresh spring roll and think... totally worth it?
You know the much poo-poo'd "Domino Theory" was in fact correct after all, don't you? SE Asia fell, and Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia are three of the last remaining five commie countries on this planet. Whether it makes a difference to you or not doesn't matter......what was predicted to happen (to include the bloodbath afterwards, especially in Cambodia) did indeed happen.
You spoke too soon:
https://heatst.com/culture-wars/prominent-editor-mocked-for-saying-tomahawk-missiles-are-offensive-to-native-americans/
Clara Jeffery, editor in chief of Mother Jones magazine
That the missiles are callled tomahawks must enrage a lot of Native Americans
— Clara Jeffery (@ClaraJeffery) April 8, 2017
Apparently she needs an editor for her Twitter account? LOL
I find it hilarious anytime someone trots out the "cultural misappropriation" farce. 1. If you don't want anyone to steal your culture, don't show it to anyone! B. If you didn't invent it, you don't get to complain when someone steals it!
How do you know if the other person/military is firing warning shots or just have bad aim?
How do you know if the other person/military is firing warning shots or just have bad aim?
Well maybe you shouldn't be bum-rushing them on the open seas then, no? Common sense also says that if the rounds don't come anywhere near you, they're warning shots. If they're close enough that you're drenched with water or suddenly perforated, then they're NOT warning shots. Probably be a safe bet to look at it that way.
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 14:58
You know the much poo-poo'd "Domino Theory" was in fact correct after all, don't you? SE Asia fell, and Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia are three of the last remaining five commie countries on this planet. Whether it makes a difference to you or not doesn't matter......what was predicted to happen (to include the bloodbath afterwards, especially in Cambodia) did indeed happen.
Yeah, three dominos fell.
Means that communism won the Cold War, because the domino theory was correct. Right?
Oh. Wait.
Maybe if we hadn't knocked those dominos over, they wouldn't have fallen.
How do you know if the other person/military is firing warning shots or just have bad aim?
If someone breaks into your house and shoots at you, they're warning shots.
If you shoot at them and miss, it's bad aim.
:jester:
Yeah, three dominos fell.
Means that communism won the Cold War, because the domino theory was correct. Right?
Oh. Wait.
Maybe if we hadn't knocked those dominos over, they wouldn't have fallen.
Ho Chi Minh and his successors knocked them over. And no, kind of ironic you use SE Asia as an example of the Cold War and communism's demise. Remember, 3 of the 5 remaining commie countries are there, but why let facts get in the way? Point is that the Domino Theory was correct. It referred to SE Asia, specifically, not the rest of the world. And it was correct.
Ho Chi Minh and his successors knocked them over. And no, kind of ironic you use SE Asia as an example of the Cold War and communism's demise. Remember, 3 of the 5 remaining commie countries are there, but why let facts get in the way? Point is that the Domino Theory was correct. It referred to SE Asia, specifically, not the rest of the world. And it was correct.
Weeeeel, not entirely. OK, technically, by government standards, kinda sorta communist. But Vietnam is buddying up to the US, exporting tons of goods, giving their people the thumbs up to venture into capitalism (for a large piece of the pie).
The domino theory was articulated by Eisenhower in 1954 about Indochina specifically but he generalized it to the rest of the world; just as Churchill generalized in 1945 the fall of countries to the Soviets in East Europe. We now know the domino theory was kind of a bust, and they really weren't out to make the rest of the world commies.
To your point, though, most of the other dominos in the theory ended up subject to despots and dictators and crappy situations: Thailand (still OK), Malaysia, Burma, Indonesia. Never made it to India.
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 15:26
Ho Chi Minh and his successors knocked them over. And no, kind of ironic you use SE Asia as an example of the Cold War and communism's demise. Remember, 3 of the 5 remaining commie countries are there, but why let facts get in the way? Point is that the Domino Theory was correct. It referred to SE Asia, specifically, not the rest of the world. And it was correct.
We knocked them over when we:
1- Failed to support Vietnam's bid for independence after WWII.
2- Proposed and supported the creation of a North Vietnam and a South Vietnam - after Chiang Kai-shek had been kicked out of mainland China. And once South Vietnam proved unequal to the task of governing itself, we decided to step in.
So we forced them to go to the Communists and then we had to keep from starting WWIII by not invading China's Vietnamese buffer state, while supporting the fundamentally unstable South. Which meant we knocked that domino over.
Our subsequent invasions of Cambodia and Laos didn't exactly help there, either.
Well maybe you shouldn't be bum-rushing them on the open seas then, no? Common sense also says that if the rounds don't come anywhere near you, they're warning shots. If they're close enough that you're drenched with water or suddenly perforated, then they're NOT warning shots. Probably be a safe bet to look at it that way.
In the field, would you wait until you had perforations in your person before deciding what came in your general direction was intended as a warning shot? If the US war ship fired first, regardless of intent, that should have been public knowledge at the time.
A few across the bow to say "back off" is not an uncommon practice to be sure, but obviously comes with some risks, one of which is those receiving them as something other than warning shots and or, using as an excuse to return fire using the "they fired first" excuse to do so. Perhaps that was the strategy all along of the NV.
Getting back to Syria...
WASHINGTON (AP) — A senior U.S. official says the United States has concluded that Russia knew in advance of Syria's chemical weapons attack last week.
The official says a Russian-operated drone flew over a hospital in Syria as victims of the attack were rushing to get treatment.
Hours after the drone left, a Russian-made fighter jet bombed the hospital in what American officials believe was an attempt to cover up the usage of chemical weapons.
Until Monday, U.S. officials had said they weren't sure if the drone was operated by Russia or Syria. The senior official said it still wasn't clear who was flying the jet that bombed the hospital.
The official said the presence of the drone couldn't have been a coincidence, and that Russia must have known the chemical weapons attack was coming and that victims were seeking treatment.
The official wasn't authorized to speak publicly on intelligence matters and demanded anonymity.
https://apnews.com/19772be1238e49fbb62c509a5b659b3d
RobertTheTexan
04-10-17, 16:44
Getting back to Syria...
WASHINGTON (AP) — A senior U.S. official says the United States has concluded that Russia knew in advance of Syria's chemical weapons attack last week.
The official says a Russian-operated drone flew over a hospital in Syria as victims of the attack were rushing to get treatment.
Hours after the drone left, a Russian-made fighter jet bombed the hospital in what American officials believe was an attempt to cover up the usage of chemical weapons.
Until Monday, U.S. officials had said they weren't sure if the drone was operated by Russia or Syria. The senior official said it still wasn't clear who was flying the jet that bombed the hospital.
The official said the presence of the drone couldn't have been a coincidence, and that Russia must have known the chemical weapons attack was coming and that victims were seeking treatment.
The official wasn't authorized to speak publicly on intelligence matters and demanded anonymity.
https://apnews.com/19772be1238e49fbb62c509a5b659b3d
I actually thought that was a foregone conclusion Will. I suspect the Russians perhaps acted in an advisory role as well. Syria has owned Fencers for years and the relationship is good enough that the Syrian Arab AF SU-24M2 Fencers are running the latest upgrades.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I actually thought that was a foregone conclusion Will. I suspect the Russians perhaps acted in an advisory role as well. Syria has owned Fencers for years and the relationship is good enough that the Syrian Arab AF SU-24M2 Fencers are running the latest upgrades.
I suspect most feel that way inside and outside the beltway. Proof of it another matter of course. Russians will simply say it's all fabricated and fake news and just deny anyway.
Guessing these sources that are confirming Russian participation or knowledge of the gas attack are the same who know the Russians hacked the elections...
I'm sorry, but about the ONLY folks retarded enough to leave incriminating evidence readily accessible is the DNC. Do you REALLY think that if Russia knew Assad was abou tto do something this retarded they would allow themselves to be caught helping. I'd say if all Russian assets cleared out and went about setting up clearly visible alibi's then I'd worry.
There was only 1 message sent the other day: I'm not a Russian stooge. See I bombed their butt buddy.
We knocked them over when we:
1- Failed to support Vietnam's bid for independence after WWII. Ho Chi Minh was an avowed communist. Given the post-WWII U.S. stance on communism the rejection shouldn't be surprising.
2- Proposed and supported the creation of a North Vietnam and a South Vietnam - after Chiang Kai-shek had been kicked out of mainland China. And once South Vietnam proved unequal to the task of governing itself, we decided to step in.
So we forced them to go to the Communists and then we had to keep from starting WWIII by not invading China's Vietnamese buffer state, while supporting the fundamentally unstable South. Which meant we knocked that domino over.
Our subsequent invasions of Cambodia and Laos didn't exactly help there, either. Those were done for military reasons during a war. What more do you want?
So no, "we" didn't knock them over. Far from it. Uncle Ho had his commie hands all over Vietnam (obviously) but also over the Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge. The destiny of SE Asia was pre-ordained unless we intervened and prevailed. We prevented the takeover of all three countries while we were there fighting North Vietnam but tired of it (poor strategy and "limited" war, if there should ever be such a thing) and left. Then Uncle Ho had his way. To assert that somehow the U.S. was the problem in SE Asia is being delusional and left-leaning.
Weeeeel, not entirely. OK, technically, by government standards, kinda sorta communist. But Vietnam is buddying up to the US, exporting tons of goods, giving their people the thumbs up to venture into capitalism (for a large piece of the pie).
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Lao People's Democratic Republic
People's Republic of China
Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea
Kingdom of Cambodia (VERY misleading)
Other than the last one, those all sound pretty commie to me. That last one has been dominated by the Cambodian People's Party since a 1997 coup and fits in with all the rest in how I'm about to articulate:
Economies, especially China's, can be "loosened" and seem to be coming around to our way of thinking. However, what all those countries share in common is a totalitarian government that might allow you to make a few $$$ but don't dare openly oppose them. They are authoritarian governments who like money, and arrogantly "allow" their people to keep a few pennies. The State remains in control and no dissent is allowed. So perhaps we should always view countries in how they run things.....can you say "F**k you!" at a demonstration and go home that night?
MountainRaven
04-10-17, 20:41
So no, "we" didn't knock them over. Far from it. Uncle Ho had his commie hands all over Vietnam (obviously) but also over the Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge. The destiny of SE Asia was pre-ordained unless we intervened and prevailed. We prevented the takeover of all three countries while we were there fighting North Vietnam but tired of it (poor strategy and "limited" war, if there should ever be such a thing) and left. Then Uncle Ho had his way. To assert that somehow the U.S. was the problem in SE Asia is being delusional and left-leaning.
Ho Chi Minh appealed to the US repeatedly for assistance in establishing a free and independent Vietnam. First because - according to Woodrow Wilson - national self-determination only applies to white people; and second because we were more interested in appeasing France than in demanding that France, like Britain, dismantle their colonial empire.
Guessing these sources that are confirming Russian participation or knowledge of the gas attack are the same who know the Russians hacked the elections...
I'm sorry, but about the ONLY folks retarded enough to leave incriminating evidence readily accessible is the DNC. Do you REALLY think that if Russia knew Assad was abou tto do something this retarded they would allow themselves to be caught helping. I'd say if all Russian assets cleared out and went about setting up clearly visible alibi's then I'd worry.
There was only 1 message sent the other day: I'm not a Russian stooge. See I bombed their butt buddy.
That how people get caught all the time.
RobertTheTexan
04-10-17, 23:42
Ho Chi Minh appealed to the US repeatedly for assistance in establishing a free and independent Vietnam. First because - according to Woodrow Wilson - national self-determination only applies to white people; and second because we were more interested in appeasing France than in demanding that France, like Britain, dismantle their colonial empire.
I am thoroughly enjoying this this little debate/history lesson and glad no one has bothered to interrupt the discussion.
Grabs another bag of popcorn...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
04-11-17, 04:49
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3949/33586484960_ebb3978902.jpg
Ho Chi Minh appealed to the US repeatedly for assistance in establishing a free and independent Vietnam. First because - according to Woodrow Wilson - national self-determination only applies to white people; and second because we were more interested in appeasing France than in demanding that France, like Britain, dismantle their colonial empire.
Read what I wrote earlier. Uncle Ho was a communist since the 1920's. It is no surprise his overtures to us were rebuffed after WWII, especially in the light of the huge anti-communist sentiment as the Cold War began.
How does this SE Asia thing tie into the Syria situation? One can question our government's actions (or inactions), and it is healthy to do so. However, to form an opinion, no matter how many others share it, that flies against the facts is unhealthy and not academically honest. In this day and age (as opposed to over half a century ago in the Gulf of Tonkin) do discern what is and isn't a fact is much easier given the real-time tech available to the world. Sure, some things are still done clandestinely but for the most part openness is much more common now than then.
I heard on the radio on the way to work that one of the administration's peeps (can't remember who it was) told the media that the first thing Trump wanted to know in the pow-wow about Syria was proof it happened. Only after incontrovertible facts were given to him (maybe the stuff of which Sensei speaks?) did he move on to military options. In other words he didn't go into the meeting with gun drawn, ready to fire.
In the field, would you wait until you had perforations in your person before deciding what came in your general direction was intended as a warning shot? If the US war ship fired first, regardless of intent, that should have been public knowledge at the time.
A few across the bow to say "back off" is not an uncommon practice to be sure, but obviously comes with some risks, one of which is those receiving them as something other than warning shots and or, using as an excuse to return fire using the "they fired first" excuse to do so. Perhaps that was the strategy all along of the NV.
Whether it be 1964 in the Gulf of Tonkin, 1988 in the Persian Gulf, or 20XX in the Mediterranean off Syria, the offending parties must realize that their aggressive actions have brought those warning shots. In the case on the USS Maddox incident, it *should* have occurred to the NV PT boat crews that "Gee, is that a warning shot or was he trying to hit me? Well I guess if I wasn't aggressively closing the distance on that ship like I shouldn't be doing, then maybe those warning shots wouldn't have been fired at all".
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 09:12
SF Does the Lord's work in Syria:
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-special-forces-kill-isis-fighters-repel-attack-syria-n744651?via=newsletter&source=CSPMedition
"All of the ISIS fighters were killed and there were no American casualties."
SomeOtherGuy
04-11-17, 09:53
SF Does the Lord's work in Syria:
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/u-s-special-forces-kill-isis-fighters-repel-attack-syria-n744651?via=newsletter&source=CSPMedition
"All of the ISIS fighters were killed and there were no American casualties."
So basically DoD assets are killing CIA assets?
Probably not the first time, but it doesn't seem like the best use of our resources.
The plot thickens: Russia says militants are preparing to use WMDs to lure US into another strike:
http://www.wral.com/the-latest-mortar-attack-kills-2-russian-officers-in-syria/16638188/
The plot thickens: Russia says militants are preparing to use WMDs to lure US into another strike:
http://www.wral.com/the-latest-mortar-attack-kills-2-russian-officers-in-syria/16638188/
At this point that will no doubt be the cover story for any further use of CW by Syria/Russia. "We're telling you ahead of time if there's another chemical strike it will be the insurgents. See, they did exactly what we said they would!" :rolleyes:
Outlander Systems
04-11-17, 11:23
Exactly.
I expected them to be more clever than that.
At this point that will no doubt be the cover story for any further use of CW by Syria/Russia. "We're telling you ahead of time if there's another chemical strike it will be the insurgents. See, they did exactly what we said they would!" :rolleyes:
SomeOtherGuy
04-11-17, 11:50
At this point that will no doubt be the cover story for any further use of CW by Syria/Russia. "We're telling you ahead of time if there's another chemical strike it will be the insurgents. See, they did exactly what we said they would!" :rolleyes:
And so it devolves into polar opposite views as people reinforce their prior inclinations. Much like the "Trump is our savior / Trump is literally Hitler" situation of two months ago.
Why would Syria want to use tiny amounts of chemical weapons when they were already winning big with purely conventional weapons? If they were trying to kill innocent civilians, aren't there lots of cheaper and easier ways that don't trigger (much) international condemnation? It just isn't logical, and hate on Assad and Putin all you want, they have been quite logical in their actions regarding Syria.
And so it devolves into polar opposite views as people reinforce their prior inclinations. Much like the "Trump is our savior / Trump is literally Hitler" situation of two months ago.
Why would Syria want to use tiny amounts of chemical weapons when they were already winning big with purely conventional weapons? If they were trying to kill innocent civilians, aren't there lots of cheaper and easier ways that don't trigger (much) international condemnation? It just isn't logical, and hate on Assad and Putin all you want, they have been quite logical in their actions regarding Syria.
Terrorize and frighten the population. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that it was Assad, but reportedly Trump wanted incontrovertible proof before he asked about military options. Believe it or don't believe it, there are only two choices.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.