View Full Version : Prerequisites when it comes to training classes
I asked this on 1911 forum and thought I'd cross post this here to see if I could get some responses from you guys too.
I'm signed up for an advanced pistol class with vickers next month, and have already taken a 1911 operator class with him last year. Was wanting some further instruction this summer and their is a somewhat local guy who I've heard is really. The problem is to get into his handgun 2, you have to take handgun 1 with him. His handgun 1 consists of
Grip
Stance
Sight alignment
Sight picture
Trigger control
Follow through
Breathing
Unloading/Reloading
Drawing from a holster
Recoil management
Malfunctions
I mean pretty basic stuff. Is it normal with instructors to have to wade through the basic stuff to just be able to get to the other stuff, especially if you've already taken advanced classes before? Just from someone else.
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Reach out to him and ask if that's a hard and fast rule or will previous instruction from another qualified instructor is sufficient to waive into his level 2 class. If not, a fundamentals class is never a bad thing really.
I did. He told me that although vickers is a good teacher he wants everyone to start with his way. And learn his techniques. Unfortunately this class is 500 miles round trip for.
One thing I have to say I liked about vickers class, he told you how he'd do it and if you wanted to take his advice fine, if not fine. As long as you got hits on target he didn't seem to care much.
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I guess my real question is, are prerequisites normal in training classes?
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I guess my real question is, are prerequisites normal in training classes?
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They are based on the level of the class. But at the level we are discussing, if you informed the instructor about the vickers class and the distance of travel / extra expenses and he still had an issue I would look elsewhere. His handgun 1 syllabus seems to be fairly basic and any good NRA pistol instructor could get you there. He should know that.
I know of a good number of instructors that force the first class to participate to level 2 but generally their class syllabus is more advanced or touches a lot on mindset and theory which they dont think you are going to get anywhere else and that carries into their level 2 classes. Most of the time the issue is forced between level 2 and level 3. If you have been with said teacher for three rounds of classes you dont want some random who is saying he can move and shoot etc. come to a class and slow everyone down.
Unless this guy is a name you really want to train with, look other places.
Unless this guy is a name you really want to train with, look other places.
Not nationally recognized, far as I know. His website says he's a former SEAL.
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It seems we had this discussion as we formulated the schedule each year at my former workplace. We had prerequisites for some classes, often waived them, generally okay, but sometimes with bad outcomes.
If you are doing a more advanced class (assuming handgun 1 is more advanced than handgun 2) you don't want to be dealing with remedial shooters - it holds up the rest of the class, adding additional stress to the instructor and sometimes the students, as Monk noted above. As an instructor you should want everyone to start from the same sheet of music.
In terms of 'if you wanted to take his advice fine, if not fine' as an instructor my mindset was early on stolen from another group 'I'm not teaching THE way, I'm teaching A way.' This was a discussion I often had with a co-worker. My idea was if I'm teaching pistol I'm teaching one method - the method I feel is best. His idea was to teach a 'smorgasbord' of methods and allow the student to pick. That is fine if you are doing a month of training and can devote time to train to proficiency in each method, but that doesn't work well in reality.
The purpose of tiered classes is to give you a foundation to practice which prepares you for the next class. It sounds as if you have chosen Larry Vickers as your go-to pistol instructor. Why not practice what you learned in his operator's class in preparation for the advanced course?
This is from the Vickers Tactical website:
Carbine Basic: An entry level course for carbine shooters. This class is geared for those who have not had any formal instruction.
Carbine I – Introductory Level: For shooters who have had at least a basic carbine class either from Vickers Tactical or any other accredited instructor.
Carbine II – Intermediate Level Requirements are same as Carbine I. No waivers from any other instructors granted.
Carbine III – Advanced Level Requirements are Carbine I and II. No waivers from any other instructors granted.
I note that he doesn't list the same thing - 'no waivers from any other instructors granted' - for his pistol courses. Not sure if that is an oversight in the course listings, or what.
TL;DR - yes, I think it is fairly normal to have prerequisites.
26inf, thank you for your response. This is all new uncharted territory to me so I'm trying to navigate it. I live in Montana and vickers has been the only instructor that I could find that comes anywhere close to a driving distance for me. That's why I'm taking another class from him, and this will only be my second formal class ever. I'd been trying to research local guysb around here too. But not knowing who they are, or what a good handgun class should consist of, I'm a little leary. I'm just trying to get the most bang for my buck spent.
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There was a very large SNAFU a few years ago due to some instructors lowering the level of training in advanced classes to meet the level of the lowest common denominator students. Having been in a similar class where the content was lowered because many of the students were unpracticed, I can get behind prereq's 100%. However, they should be performance based.
Most Pistol 1 courses are essentially teaching a student the fundamentals of marksmanship and how not to shoot themselves on the draw. Most pistol 1 students will NEVER practice this again or take another class. If they take the pistol 2 course later...say...in 6 months, and they haven't practiced, they're going to be behind in an advanced class. Therefore, before any advanced class, a student needs to show proficiencya at, not just exposure to, the previous material. Coming full circle then, if you have not taken a pistol 1 or are very well practices, taking Mr. Vickers' entry level class would probably be a good thing.
Also, he is former Army SF (Delta), not Navy.
26inf, thank you for your response. This is all new uncharted territory to me so I'm trying to navigate it. I live in Montana and vickers has been the only instructor that I could find that comes anywhere close to a driving distance for me. That's why I'm taking another class from him, and this will only be my second formal class ever. I'd been trying to research local guysb around here too. But not knowing who they are, or what a good handgun class should consist of, I'm a little leary. I'm just trying to get the most bang for my buck spent.
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This may be helpful - http://www.nrainstructors.org/Search.aspx
There was a very large SNAFU a few years ago due to some instructors lowering the level of training in advanced classes to meet the level of the lowest common denominator students. Having been in a similar class where the content was lowered because many of the students were unpracticed, I can get behind prereq's 100%. However, they should be performance based.
Most Pistol 1 courses are essentially teaching a student the fundamentals of marksmanship and how not to shoot themselves on the draw. Most pistol 1 students will NEVER practice this again or take another class. If they take the pistol 2 course later...say...in 6 months, and they haven't practiced, they're going to be behind in an advanced class. Therefore, before any advanced class, a student needs to show proficiencya at, not just exposure to, the previous material. Coming full circle then, if you have not taken a pistol 1 or are very well practices, taking Mr. Vickers' entry level class would probably be a good thing.
Also, he is former Army SF (Delta), not Navy.
The OP already stated he took Vickers 1911 operator class with him last year.
There was a very large SNAFU a few years ago due to some instructors lowering the level of training in advanced classes to meet the level of the lowest common denominator students. Having been in a similar class where the content was lowered because many of the students were unpracticed, I can get behind prereq's 100%. However, they should be performance based.
Most Pistol 1 courses are essentially teaching a student the fundamentals of marksmanship and how not to shoot themselves on the draw. Most pistol 1 students will NEVER practice this again or take another class. If they take the pistol 2 course later...say...in 6 months, and they haven't practiced, they're going to be behind in an advanced class. Therefore, before any advanced class, a student needs to show proficiencya at, not just exposure to, the previous material. Coming full circle then, if you have not taken a pistol 1 or are very well practices, taking Mr. Vickers' entry level class would probably be a good thing.
Also, he is former Army SF (Delta), not Navy.
I damn sure don't want to be the retard slowing everyone up.
I know vickers was delta, the class u was talking about is a former SEAL
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travistheone
04-07-17, 13:14
some classes will have you shoot a qual or provide a time for certain drills.
check out https://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/upcoming-open-enrollment-classes/ . for some classes in OR and ID
My bad. My reading comprehension sucks in the morning. I would second John "Mosby", but be aware that his classes can be very physically demanding.
their is a somewhat local guy who I've heard is really. The problem is to get into his handgun 2, you have to take handgun 1 with him.
I think I found the website. It seems that Handgun two should be a starting point if you show him a fairly recent Vicker's certificate.
The only other comment I would make is that he is apparently able to teach techniques a lot faster than I can.
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