View Full Version : Armorer's Kit, what's needed?
Now that I have a couple complete AR's I want to start building. I have plenty of novice tools for cars trucks and I mostly work on Harley's.
Are the complete Armorer's Kits like the Wheeler Engineering packages all I need to assemble a lower and upper?
Are there better quality complete Armorer's Kit out there or is it better to build from scratch from different makers? I know most of this comes down to personal preference.
I'm trying to avoid buying a bunch of stuff I'll never need or use and get quality tools that will last being used over and over.
While searching the subject I've read quite a few posts from members here and on other forums damaging their weapons from not using the correct tool, trying to avoid that.
If you were just getting into building what tools would you get and by who?
What tools do you use the most, mag well vise, punches, Armorer's Wrench......
Any help on what to pick up and what to stay away from would be great, Thanks.
First off, don't watch any AR15 assembly videos on YouTube for anything other than a guide of what not to do.
Also, don't buy armorer's kits, most of the tools included in them are not very good.
The best barrel wrenches for standard barrel nuts are the ones from 2UniqueLLC, don't bother with anything else. > http://www.2uniquellc.com/_p/prd5/1928621315/product/ar15-m16-barrel-nut-wrench - http://www.2uniquellc.com/_p/prd5/2439487811/product/ar15-m16-barrel-wrench-plate
A mag well vise block is handy for installing triggers.
For installing/removing receiver extensions I prefer to clamp the lower in the Vise with a set of these. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/vises-accessories/vise-jaws/rubber-faced-vise-jaws-prod923.aspx
Barrel blocks for installing/removing muzzle devises. > http://www.btibrands.com/product/universal-barrel-clamp/
I currently use the Geissele Super Reaction Rod for installing barrels but I will be buying the 2UniqueLLC barreling jig when it is finally made available.
Most all of the punches needed are available from brownells but these ones specifically make installing and removing the bolt catch a breeze. > https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-role-pin-punch/ - https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-extended-role-pin-punch/ - http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bolt-tools/dissassembly-tools/bolt-catch-pin-punch-prod26484.aspx
I use this punch for installing taper pins. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/pin-tools/taper-pin-starter-prod26485.aspx
I use this punch for staking end plates. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/punches/starrett-5-32-center-punch-prod26486.aspx
This punch is made for staking end plates though. > https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-416-MR556-762-Buffer-Staking-Tool-German-HK-p16945.htm
These bench blocks are used for trigger guard and FSB work, don't get the Brownells FSB bench block because it sucks. > https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-barrelreceiver-block-set/
Bolt vise. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bench-vise-blocks/sinclair-ar-15-bolt-vise-prod34719.aspx
The MOACKS Plain is the best for staking carrier key screws, I have three of them. > http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
I use this Wheeler screwdriver set and it's been good so far. > http://www.btibrands.com/product/professional-gunsmithing-screwdriver-set-89-pc/
I consider this to be one of the best stock wrenches. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/wrenches/car-15-m4-buttstock-wrench-prod27454.aspx
This is my Vise of choice, I love it. > http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/vises/bench-pipe-vises/swivel-base-4-inch-jaw-width-6-1-2-inch-jaw-opening-3-1-2-inch-throat-depth
Torque tools. > https://store.snapon.com/US-Torque-Instruments-ft-lb--Torque-Wrench-Adj-Click-type-US-Fixed-15-75-ft-lb-3-8-drive-P891699.aspx - https://store.snapon.com/US-Torque-Instruments-in-lb--Torque-Wrench-Adj-Click-Type-U-S-Fixed-40-200-in-lb-1-4-drive-P640949.aspx - http://www.toolsdelivered.com/CDI-401SM-Measuring-Instruments-Torque-Measuring-Screwdrivers-Micro-Adjustable-Torque-Screwdrivers-Micro-Adjustable
I think that's a good start and it avoids all of the junk tools that I have gone through over the years to get to this point. ;)
TQ wrenches and a vice I'm good on, most of the other stuff you posted I'll have to research because I had no idea I would need that stuff. Good info, keep it coming.
This is what I have:
4 inch bench vise - Wilton @ Home Depot (after moving it on my bench several times I finally put it on a wooden mount I made from scrap pieces of 2x6 and 2x10 which I can clamp to the bench if needed)
5 inch floor mounted vise - harbor freight
Generic Mag well vise block (off Amazon)
Generic Upper receiver block (off Amazon)
Knock-off reaction rod (Botach)
DPMS armorers wrench
beam style foot pounds torque wrench
click style inch pounds torque wrench
Starret long shaft 3/32 1/8 5/32 pin punches (flat head –got them after first armorer course still going strong)
Grace roll pin punch set
Grace roll pin holder set (bought the Grace one’s after I bent/broke a couple from brownells)
Brownell’s Bolt catch pin punch
9/64 and 1/8 hex sockets (carrier key)
Homemade pivot pin tool
Harbor freight and Starrett automatic center punches (misplaced the Starrett for awhile)
Bondhus SAE and metric ball end hex driver sets
Regular ‘L’ ball end hex key sets in SAE and metric (harbor freight)
Wheeler deluxe gunsmith screw driver set (also have a Brownell’s set – the wheeler is better for the money IMO – you don’t need either for AR’s)
Long shaft large flatblade screw driver
Brass hammer/mallet
Small ball pein hammer (hardly use)
Medium ball pein hammer (use most)
8 oz body shop dead blow mallet (hardly use)
Plastic tipped hammer
Hockey puck with a hole drilled in it – or a fancy armorer’s block
flexible shaft dremel tool
aluma-black and cold blue
strap wrench (Ace hardware)
ETA - I have access to a MOACKS tool - otherwise I would buy one
You should note that I don't have anything to work on FSB's because I put rails and low profile gas blocks on all my builds. I'm to the point now that I don't have to buy another tool every time I put one together - LOL!
Never really thought about it:
Is there a "correct" size bench vice ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
Never really thought about it:
Is there a "correct" size bench vice ?
Official Kremlin Transmission
I wouldn't go any less than four inch jaws, for ARs I don't think you really need any more than that.
If you plan on dimpling or pinning your own gas blocks, I'd also recommend the BRD Engineering dimpling jig and pinning jigs.
A heat gun is also nice to have. Some barrels tend to fit pretty snug in certain upper recievers and the heat gun allows you the clearance needed to install. (Also works for loctite on threads).
Also, a small can/tube of Aeroshell 33ms for the barrel nut threads, and a tube of Mobile grease #28 (It's the grease Geissele includes with their triggers, but works well in other areas as well like buffer tube threads, etc).
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Also, a small can/tube of Aeroshell 33ms for the barrel nut threads, and a tube of Mobile grease #28 (It's the grease Geissele includes with their triggers, but works well in other areas as well like buffer tube threads, etc).
Why use Mobile grease #28 when the Areoshell 33ms (now Aeroshell 64) is the spec grease to use for assembly of the receiver extension?
Not that I think it matters really since Colt doesn't use either and I use TS-70 Moly Paste.
Why use Mobile grease #28 when the Areoshell 33ms (now Aeroshell 64) is the spec grease to use for assembly of the receiver extension?
Not that I think it matters really since Colt doesn't use either and I use TS-70 Moly Paste.
Oh there are plenty of alternatives (and like you said, it's not even necessarily required either way). It's just a little cheaper than the Aeroshell and since it doesn't come in smaller quantities, might as well use it. I personally use the Aeroshell for the barrel nut only and the Mobile grease for everything else, simply because I have more of it.
Straight Shooter
04-11-17, 16:45
First off, don't watch any AR15 assembly videos on YouTube for anything other than a guide of what not to do.
Also, don't buy armorer's kits, most of the tools included in them are not very good.
The best barrel wrenches for standard barrel nuts are the ones from 2UniqueLLC, don't bother with anything else. > http://www.2uniquellc.com/_p/prd5/1928621315/product/ar15-m16-barrel-nut-wrench - http://www.2uniquellc.com/_p/prd5/2439487811/product/ar15-m16-barrel-wrench-plate
A mag well vise block is handy for installing triggers.
For installing/removing receiver extensions I prefer to clamp the lower in the Vise with a set of these. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/vises-accessories/vise-jaws/rubber-faced-vise-jaws-prod923.aspx
Barrel blocks for installing/removing muzzle devises. > http://www.btibrands.com/product/universal-barrel-clamp/
I currently use the Geissele Super Reaction Rod for installing barrels but I will be buying the 2UniqueLLC barreling jig when it is finally made available.
Most all of the punches needed are available from brownells but these ones specifically make installing and removing the bolt catch a breeze. > https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-role-pin-punch/ - https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-extended-role-pin-punch/ - http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bolt-tools/dissassembly-tools/bolt-catch-pin-punch-prod26484.aspx
I use this punch for installing taper pins. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/pin-tools/taper-pin-starter-prod26485.aspx
I use this punch for staking end plates. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/punches/starrett-5-32-center-punch-prod26486.aspx
This punch is made for staking end plates though. > https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-416-MR556-762-Buffer-Staking-Tool-German-HK-p16945.htm
These bench blocks are used for trigger guard and FSB work, don't get the Brownells FSB bench block because it sucks. > https://rguns.net/shop/r-guns-barrelreceiver-block-set/
Bolt vise. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bench-vise-blocks/sinclair-ar-15-bolt-vise-prod34719.aspx
The MOACKS Plain is the best for staking carrier key screws, I have three of them. > http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
I use this Wheeler screwdriver set and it's been good so far. > http://www.btibrands.com/product/professional-gunsmithing-screwdriver-set-89-pc/
I consider this to be one of the best stock wrenches. > http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/wrenches/car-15-m4-buttstock-wrench-prod27454.aspx
This is my Vise of choice, I love it. > http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/vises/bench-pipe-vises/swivel-base-4-inch-jaw-width-6-1-2-inch-jaw-opening-3-1-2-inch-throat-depth
Torque tools. > https://store.snapon.com/US-Torque-Instruments-ft-lb--Torque-Wrench-Adj-Click-type-US-Fixed-15-75-ft-lb-3-8-drive-P891699.aspx - https://store.snapon.com/US-Torque-Instruments-in-lb--Torque-Wrench-Adj-Click-Type-U-S-Fixed-40-200-in-lb-1-4-drive-P640949.aspx - http://www.toolsdelivered.com/CDI-401SM-Measuring-Instruments-Torque-Measuring-Screwdrivers-Micro-Adjustable-Torque-Screwdrivers-Micro-Adjustable
I think that's a good start and it avoids all of the junk tools that I have gone through over the years to get to this point. ;)
Now THATS how to answer a question! Damn good of yall to take time to do that...you & 26Inf too.
Rifleman_04
04-11-17, 17:45
Go/no go gauges should be towards the top of the list if you are ever going to swap barrels.
Some people say they aren't needed for AR builds but my personal experience working on guns from even top tier manufacturers says otherwise.
nightchief
04-11-17, 19:28
Mr. Iraqgunz has a list of tools he recommends for his armoring classes. One list is a minimalist list, the other, more extensive. I used his list as a basis for acquiring the proper tools. http://www.semperparatusarms.com/ar15-armorer-course-information/
I have no affiliation with his armoring class.
NC
This punch is made for staking end plates though. > https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-416-MR556-762-Buffer-Staking-Tool-German-HK-p16945.htm
Does it come with a little German guy to operate it?
I use this Wheeler screwdriver set and it's been good so far. > http://www.btibrands.com/product/professional-gunsmithing-screwdriver-set-89-pc/
This the one I have. I'd always thought Wheeler was a little sketchy but bought it because of the specialty bits. IMO, it totally blows away this Brownell's kit, which I also have: 080-110-804WB 44 Bit Professional Set w/ Magnetic Law Enforcement Handle at about 1/2 the price for the Wheeler. The Brownell's kit rides in the part box I take with me to the range, the Wheeler is on the bench.
Go/no go gauges should be towards the top of the list if you are ever going to swap barrels.
Some people say they aren't needed for AR builds but my personal experience working on guns from even top tier manufacturers says otherwise.
Good catch.
I have go, no go, and field.
Go and No Go won't help if they aren't correct 5.56.
A tapco armorers wrench and a magpul BEV block have become new additions to my AR15 building table. They have been great so far.
Thanks for all the info so far, looks like this is going to be quite an investment. I'm sure it will pay for itself in the long run but I'll have to piece all of this together over a few months it looks like.
556BlackRifle
04-12-17, 09:57
Do it right and invest in good quality tools. The Magpul Armorer's Wrench and Geissele Reaction Rod would be high on my list of should have items.
You may already know this since you work on cars, but some auto parts stores will rent out specialty tools ( like a torque wrench) for free. You put down a deposit and are reimbursed when you return the tool.
I've also found small quantities of Aeroshell 33ms on Amazon. Beats buying a whole tube you may never use.
Do it right and invest in good quality tools. The Magpul Armorer's Wrench and Geissele Reaction Rod would be high on my list of should have items.
That's the plan, just a lot more tools required than I expected. I'm already very excited to get some of this stuff and start putting some hardware together.
It's looking like a new upper might be first on the list to start building. Right now I have a complete S&W sport II and a DD upper with BCM lower, I'm in the process of acquiring a DD lower so I'll have a spare BCM lower that needs an upper.
The BCM upper is great! I just want a complete DD.
Reaction rod and high quality punches. Specifically roll pin punches would be high on my list.
I marked up my build a little by not having correct punches.
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First tool ordered, a The Magpul Armorer's Wrench. I need to put an A2 buffer on so I can mount my PRS stock, I was going to half-ass it with tools in the garage but decided to wait a couple days and try the right tool.
Other than personnel satisfaction building an upper makes NO economic sense unless you do it for a living. By uppers and build lowers.
Other than personnel satisfaction building an upper makes NO economic sense unless you do it for a living. By uppers and build lowers.
Money aside, I have seen some monster rifles in the build section that would outperform just about any mass produced rifle. That's kind of where I'd like to be in a year or so....
I'm retired so it would be more of a hobby, most of the fun hobbies are not cheap.
You can install that with a 3/4" open ended wrench. Nothing special needed there.
First tool ordered, a The Magpul Armorer's Wrench. I need to put an A2 buffer on so I can mount my PRS stock, I was going to half-ass it with tools in the garage but decided to wait a couple days and try the right tool.
You can install that with a 3/4" open ended wrench. Nothing special needed there.
A 19mm works as well. I know because I don't have a 3/4"!
You can install that with a 3/4" open ended wrench. Nothing special needed there.
That was 80 bucks shot in the ass. If he hopes to build "monster rifles" he isn't going to put back on many gi barrel nuts. They come off easy with a 12" pipe wrench. I throw them in the trash. Any hand guard worth having comes with a proprietary nut and wrench. My go to castle nut wrench is the $15 KMR barrel nut wrench. My point is... Most multi tools are a waste of $$$. The MagPull wrench is one of them. I am a firm believer in having the right tool for the job but I am not going to run out and buy a Bridgeport mill and TIG welding machine to remove and install the occasional MD!
This the one I have. I'd always thought Wheeler was a little sketchy but bought it because of the specialty bits. IMO, it totally blows away this Brownell's kit, which I also have: 080-110-804WB 44 Bit Professional Set w/ Magnetic Law Enforcement Handle at about 1/2 the price for the Wheeler. The Brownell's kit rides in the part box I take with me to the range, the Wheeler is on the bench.
I was about to order a wheeler kit on Amazon but looking at the recent reviews and pictures of all the broken bits I'm on the fence about wheeler now.
You can install that with a 3/4" open ended wrench. Nothing special needed there.
A2 buffer Tube was what I meant to write, Aluminum Reciever Extension Tube + A2 Buffer + Spring
That's what I gathered. PRS stock kinda gave it away.
A2 buffer Tube was what I meant to write, Aluminum Reciever Extension Tube + A2 Buffer + Spring
I was about to order a wheeler kit on Amazon but looking at the recent reviews and pictures of all the broken bits I'm on the fence about wheeler now.
As I said, you don't need them for an AR. The other observation I'd make is use your tools properly. There is a reason L-shaped hex keys don't all have 5 inch legs - you break stuff.
FWIW regarding the poster on Amazon who was complaining about the Browning and tight screws, if you are taking apart an older shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc, and the screw doesn't back out easily STOP. Put some KROIL or other penetrant on it and let it sit for a while. After being exposed to solvent, oil, etc. over an extended period the screws get 'varnished' in. The answer to a stuck screw is not a bigger screwdriver handle.
Y'all would be surprised at how much WCSOG work happens to the guns over seas because "some" contract companies are too cheap to get the proper tools or do a proper tool requisition from the mil....
Majority of the staking on BCG keys I did was done with a hammer and small flat head screw driver because I had no other choice.
I'm not saying that you don't need to get specialty tools, just that given an understanding of the quality of the work needed to meet TM standard, there are other options. should not be able to just go out and immediately get all of the specialty tools all at one time due to cost or availability.
For awhile I was even using a very large leather sewing needle that I had cut flat on both ends and was just the right size to punch gas tube roll pins. That is until the tools I ordered from the states arrived. Yes, I bought a fair chunk of my own tools when I worked in Afghan because the company just didn't have them or appear to want to get them when asked.
I have had several of them come through my course. They are mediocre at best.
I was about to order a wheeler kit on Amazon but looking at the recent reviews and pictures of all the broken bits I'm on the fence about wheeler now.
titsonritz
04-12-17, 18:10
According to doobtube all you need is a flat head screwdriver, a pipe wrench and what ever hammer you have lying around. Specialty tools include a 16d nail and 1/4" clevis.
Disclaimer :
Better answers have already been given
I have had several of them come through my course. They are mediocre at best.
What screwdriver set would you recommend?
When I was first looking into getting a screwdriver set I was looking hard at the Brownells Magna-Tip set but the bad reviews killed that idea for me.
Gatorgrizz27
04-12-17, 20:40
If you're looking to put together 3-4 AR's for yourself, there are a lot of things that aren't mandatory that would be for a professional gunsmith. Having a bit of mechanical knowledge/common sense can keep you from screwing things up.
I'd buy a decent set of roll pin punches, make sure you have a complete Allen key assortment, and pick up castle and barrel nut tools as well as a vise block.
I have ~$40k worth of mechanics, woodworking, and metal working tools and wasn't interested in spending another $500+ on specialty AR tools to assemble a couple guns. I'm aware that qualifies me as a "hack" to some, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at my rifles.
That's what I gathered. PRS stock kinda gave it away.
So whats the trick to remove my collapsible buffer tube with a 3/4" open ended wrench to be able to install the A2 tube? I thought I needed some sort of armors wrench for that?
I have two of them (one is over 10 years old) and use the shit out of them. I'd be curious to know what thee bad reviews were for.
What screwdriver set would you recommend?
When I was first looking into getting a screwdriver set I was looking hard at the Brownells Magna-Tip set but the bad reviews killed that idea for me.
I have ~$40k worth of mechanics, woodworking, and metal working tools and wasn't interested in spending another $500+ on specialty AR tools to assemble a couple guns. I'm aware that qualifies me as a "hack" to some, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at my rifles.
When I first got in theater, they were all using artillery took kits. They had some of the tools necessary (snap ring pliers and the like) but the special tools vidmar was well well enough stocked for a little while at least.
It really is more a question of skill with tools, mechanical aptitude, and an understanding of the standards that need to be met.
That being said, if someone doesn't have those qualities, then fudd-wrenching guns is the last thing they should be doing.
So whats the trick to remove my collapsible buffer tube with a 3/4" open ended wrench to be able to install the A2 tube? I thought I needed some sort of armors wrench for that?
You said install A2 receiver extension not remove castle nut..
15 dollar castle nut wrench. VVVVVVV
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/BCM-KMR-BNW-2_zpsnepj9feq.jpg
You said install A2 receiver extension not remove castle nut..
Yeah that's my bad, earlier in the post I mentioned that I have 3 complete lowers. Having to install an A2 buffer tube on one I thought would have been a dead giveaway that I would have to remove the castle nut to remover the adjustable buffer tube.
So the magpul wrench will work, everyone just believes it's way over priced. Agreed, but to me a lot of these tools look over priced so It's hard to know whats needed and whats quality.
I'm trying to decipher from the advice I'm getting in this thread what tools I would actually need. Like the $188.67 HK Buffer Staking Tool, to me that sounds expensive. $80 on an armorers wrench doesn't , I mean it has a bottle opener in both metric and standard! That's worth the $80 right there.......
The castle nut wrench is inexpensive, a decent one is like $12 but I would check with your local smith to see if he could remove it for next to nothing. If you were building a stripped lower with an A2 RE, you wouldn't need it.
So whats the trick to remove my collapsible buffer tube with a 3/4" open ended wrench to be able to install the A2 tube? I thought I needed some sort of armors wrench for that?
RobertTheTexan
04-13-17, 08:20
I was about to order a wheeler kit on Amazon but looking at the recent reviews and pictures of all the broken bits I'm on the fence about wheeler now.
Wheeler is the BIGGEST WASTE of money you can waste your money on. I started old with the wheeler stuff because I did NT listen to my mentor and I thought knew better. Total waste. I take that back, I have made good use of the gas tube alignment tool and the hammer. Most of the other parts are just poo quality. Chinese quality at best. But at the same time you don't have to spend $200 bucks on a reaction rod either. The Magpul's BEV block is an excellent product. It's a mag well tool, but also it can lock into the AR-15's feed ramps It uses the bolt carrier to hold it in place. I also posted in the 308 knowledge thread about an upper receiver block I use on my 308 build. It's an outstanding product also by Plastix Revolution. Quality stuff and some pretty ingenious methods for locking down the upper receiver. Being polymer, it's non-marring. I bought a kit that has a device so I can test the FCS, without letting The trigger hammer whack my thumb, also included is a device used to lock your upper receiver slightly opened so you can clean the feed ramp chamber etc. it's an excellent part of my armorers toolbox. The owner is a stand up guy, you can call him and he'll talk about guns but also about how they designed and how others use his tools. Highly recommended. The owner is a stand up guy, gun enthusiast. Links below to their upper receiver blocks, mag well block, trigger tester and cleaning link. $46 bucks. Also if your active or veteran, he has a military discount. I did not use it when I bought my kit, but I know he has one. Link below.
I'd recommend Starret punches. Excellent punch set. I paid $55 & free shipping on Shamazon and this is about the cheapest I've seen them. (Link below)If you need unique tools, check out Brownell's. Things like a bolt catch pin punch that's flat on one side.
But also don't be afraid to check out Shamazon, especially if you are a Prime member. I got my Fixxxer Hollow End starter punches and they have worked flawlessly. Link below....But keep in mind that the reviews you read can be from people who believe a DPMS AR is as good as a Daniel Defense or LaRue, so I alway take reviews on those sites with a grain of salt. Don't forget a roll of blue painters tape.
- Vise Block Kit
https://www.pmlastixrevolution.net/collections/ar15-vise-blocks/products/atp-deluxe-upper-lower-vise-block-cleaning-link-trigger-test-block
Fixxxer Starter Punches:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0191RFK4I/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Starrett Punch Set
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008IHTJ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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For staking an end plate/castle nut, get a spring loaded punch for $10.
I'd recommend Starret punches. Excellent punch set. I paid $55 & free shipping on Shamazon and this is about the heaviest I've seen them.
Starrett Punch Set
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008IHTJ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
So is there any advantage or disadvantage between the 4" punch set over the extended 8" set? Would I get more use and be able to do everything the 4" could do with the 8"?
I have two of them (one is over 10 years old) and use the shit out of them. I'd be curious to know what the bad reviews were for.
The bad reviews were specifically for the smaller size Torx and/or hex bits.
I use the smaller size Torx bits from the Wheeler set a lot and I haven't had issues with them yet.
So is there any advantage or disadvantage between the 4" punch set over the extended 8" set? Would I get more use and be able to do everything the 4" could do with the 8"?
The link provided was for pin punches with flat heads. Great, within reason, for driving solid pins out. There are a several of types of punches:
Roll pin punches have a dimple on the end to keep them centered on a roll pin. These are what you need for AR's
Roll pin starter punches are drilled out to allow the roll pin to fit inside. They hold the pin straight and make it easier to start the roll pin. After you 'start' the roll pin, a roll pin punch used to finish the job.
Pin punches are similar to roll pin punches, but have no dimple. They can be used to remove a roll pin, but are really made for solid pins. They are not are good for installing roll pins, you will have problems keeping the flat surface in place on a spring/roll pin as used on the AR's, plus you risk deforming the roll pin end.
So here you go:
Roll Pin Holders - $29.99 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/251890/grace-usa-roll-pin-holder-punch-set-5-piece-steel
Roll Pin Punches - $30.00 http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/punches/roll-pin-punches-prod38883.aspx
Optional - not necessarily needed for AR's:
Pin Punches - $30.65 http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/punches/pin-punch-set-prod6738.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=GRACE%2bUSA
Grace is a little less expensive than Starrett, and I have never been able to locate Starrett roll pin holders.
To answer you questions about length - on AR's I've never had problems with bending punches. I've broken a Brownells roll pin holder before. Brownells has a guarantee, but it takes time to get them replaced. I bought a set of Grace's.
RobertTheTexan
04-13-17, 10:20
So is there any advantage or disadvantage between the 4" punch set over the extended 8" set? Would I get more use and be able to do everything the 4" could do with the 8"?
I'm not an armorer. I'm a builder. IG will have a better read, but what I can tell you from my own personally build experience is that I prefer the 4" punch because I have more control of it, in keeping it centered on the pin. There weren't Starrett's, they were another brand and they were long and I did not like them. The only benefit I could see is when driving in the bolt catch, you'll be able to get the punch closer in to the wall of the lower, meaning your punch could be more directly aligned with the pin. But that wasn't worth the trade off of having more control of the punch because it's shorter, like a center of gravity thing.
You can achieve the same thing with this punch:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bolt-tools/dissassembly-tools/bolt-catch-pin-punch-prod26484.aspx
Wheeler also makes a bolt catch punch, but I've have never used it and I just go with what I know works. That Brownell's punch is a very high quality steel punch.
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So is there any advantage or disadvantage between the 4" punch set over the extended 8" set? Would I get more use and be able to do everything the 4" could do with the 8"?
Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not but I think the length of the punches is 4" and it's an 8 piece set.
Though standard flat face punches have very few uses when working on ARs.
Yep, I agree. I think removing the taper pins from FSB is about the only place I use a flat punch. To start removing the FCG pins, I use the plastic dummy round that comes with Magpul stocks.
I think the length of the punches is 4" and it's an 8 piece set.
Though standard flat face punches have very few uses when working on ARs.
RobertTheTexan
04-13-17, 10:32
Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not seeing but I think the length of the punches is 4" and it's an 8 piece set.
Though standard flat face punches have very few uses when working on ARs.
He's talking about these. They are the Starretts extended punch set - 8"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0006J4K5Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492097487&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=starrett+8%22&dpPl=1&dpID=41n6-N6Mf8L&ref=plSrch
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He's talking about these. They are the Starretts extended punch set - 8"
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0006J4K5Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492097487&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=starrett+8%22&dpPl=1&dpID=41n6-N6Mf8L&ref=plSrch
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Okay, I see it now.
Thanks for the link.
RobertTheTexan
04-13-17, 10:45
OP - I posted the wrong URL in my previous post. I corrected it, but here it is. This is for the Brownells Bolt Catch pin.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bolt-tools/dissassembly-tools/bolt-catch-pin-punch-prod26484.aspx
But let me just say, that I've built 8 AR's using a standard pin punch on my bolt catches. Have I slipped and dinged the metal? Yup sure have. (That's why Birchwood-Casey makes Aluminum Black to fix the little booboo's if you want) This pin punch makes it a lot easier and lessens the risk for damaging/dinging your lower.
p.s. I've also used a black sharpie....
What has happened with me, is when I built my first AR, I was trying to spend most of my money on the rifle and its parts and so something had to take a hit. The tools were the thing that "took one for the team", now 3 years later, I've built my tenth AR, which compared to some isn't a drop in the bucket. But what I can tell you is that having good quality tools is so much more important to me now, than it was that first AR. I've learned quite a few lessons since then. If I had to do it all over again would I still sacrifice the tools? No. I would not. I would have delayed my build, and given myself time to pick up some good tools. I haven't FUBAR's anything beyond repair. (Except a barrel but and an 80% lower- different story) but I have dicked the dog, I was just very fortunate to be able to recover from those mistakes.
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I will say that even though you can use the Brownells bolt catch roll pin punch for the installation of the bolt catch roll pin, that it is made for and marketed as a bolt catch roll pin removal punch only.
I have also found these to be very useful for helping with the installation of the bolt catch roll pin. > http://brdengineering.com/products/bolt-stop-slave-pin
I will say that even though you can use the Brownells bolt catch roll pin punch for the installation of the bolt catch roll pin, that it is made for and marketed as a bolt catch roll pin removal punch only.
I have also found these to be very useful for helping with the installation of the bolt catch roll pin. > http://brdengineering.com/products/bolt-stop-slave-pin
Thanks, one of those was included with my Geissele SSA-E. I'll definitely hold onto it.
OP - I posted the wrong URL in my previous post. I corrected it, but here it is. This is for the Brownells Bolt Catch pin.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bolt-tools/dissassembly-tools/bolt-catch-pin-punch-prod26484.aspx
Thanks, that's the same link I used from Iraqgunz webpage. I've been taking what I'm reading here and using the list from his classes to get a set started. When I used your link for the 4" punches the 8" set showed up under it on Amazon, hence my question about which is better.
If I needed the longer 8" set for certain things I figured it would be easier to just get the 8" and skip getting the 4" for now. Makes sense about the shorter punches being better for control.
It does work, but I used one repeatedly to see what would happen and it gradually open up slightly and slipped off the castle nut.
15 dollar castle nut wrench. VVVVVVV
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/BCM-KMR-BNW-2_zpsnepj9feq.jpg
The BCM wrench does work well for pistol REs with a stop collar, since a Hammerhead won't fit over it. Otherwise the Hammerhead is solid for castle nuts.
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GallagherRayS
04-14-17, 00:38
I'm on build #6 now, and after the first 2 I decided to pick up the Geissele Reaction Rod. Its expensive, yes, but I think its worth it for the peace of mind. Link (http://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-reaction-rod-for-ar-15-uppers-ga-rrd)
Now, the bolt catch is probably the most annoying thing to install but I have found a trick. Take a pair of standard sized channel locks, wrap the jaws in painters tape or masking tape, use a couple of layers if you care about scratching your receiver, I don't because I actually use my guns, but I can appreciate a pretty safe piece too. Get everything lined up and just use the jaws to squeeze the pin into the hole, that way you aren't trying to hold 4 things at the same time doing it with punches. Makes life so much easier, once the pin is set with the channel locks drive it home with the punch. I've also used this for trigger guard pins, a little more dangerous because it may break the ears if the jaws aren't set right, but its worked for me, also used it once for a gas tube pin but that was annoying.
Apart from that, I use a Tapco (I know, I know) armorers tool: Here (http://www.primaryarms.com/tapco-ar-15-m4-armorers-multi-tool-tool0905)
cheapo mag block - I hear good things about the Magpul BEV block which would negate the need for the reaction rod: Here (http://www.primaryarms.com/magpul-ar-15-bev-block-mag536)
a decent set of roll pin punches - I like these: Here (https://www.amazon.com/Grace-USA-Gunsmithing-Gunsmith-Accessories/dp/B007WADKN0/ref=cm_wl_huc_item)
4" bench vise, tack hammer (more precise), brass hammer, cheapo torque wrench (just caus I don't want to mess with my snap-on wrenches), a breaker bar, ratcheting screwdriver mostly with either hex head and flat head bits for installing pistol grips and sights, and a small pair of curved nose needle nose pliers for holding pins.
I just picked up the Wheeler In/Lb driver set, so the jury is still out on that one. Here (http://www.primaryarms.com/wheeler-fat-torque-wrench-553556)
Almost forgot, I also have the BRD Engineering Gas Block Dimple Jig which I highly recommend Here (http://brdengineering.com/products/gas-block-dimple-jig-460)
As you can tell I had a lot of these tools in the shop already and if you do mechanic work I'll bet you do too. Almost all of the big name rail manufacturers will come with a barrel nut wrench that goes on the torque and breaker bars, and all of the hex keys you will need. Granted the hexes are craptacular quality so I would recommend a good set of those too if you don't have one, English and Metric, especially if you don't want to strip those screw heads out.
PS: Its cool reading the other responses and noticing the tools/tricks that just scream bad past experiences driving that upgrade. Also most of my links are PA and amazon because they aren't blocked on my employer's network.
My first tool arrived, the Magpul wrench! Yeah I could have gone cheaper with something else, but I was able to get my PRS stock installed last night so I'm happy. Going to try the bottle opener later tonight, I'll update with my review on that.
So as per some recommendations here is what I also have on order, these are what I decided could be used by me now with my limited knowledge.
1)Magpul Wrench (already here)
2)Starrett S565WB Drive Pin Punch 8-Piece Set
3)Fixxxer Hollow End Stainless Steel Starter Punch Set
4)Aeroshell 33ms
5)Brownells MAGNA-TIP screwdriver Standard Set No. 1 w/ #81 Handle 24pc
6)BROWNELLS - 1" NYLON/BRASS HAMMER
7)BROWNELLS Roll Pin, Set 1/16 in, 1/8 in, 3/16 in, 3/32 in, 5/64 in
8)BROWNELLS - AR-15 PIVOT PIN DETENT INSTALLATION TOOL
9)BROWNELLS - BOLT CATCH PIN PUNCH
10)PlastiXrevolution AR15 Deluxe Upper & Lower Vise Block + Cleaning & Trigger Test
I have two triggers to install, my SSA-E and an SSA that I just ordered so I'll be able to try some of these tools pretty quickly.
I think for now this will be a good start and I'll be able to pick up the rest along the way as needed. And my Tax rebate is almost exhausted so I have enough for one more complete upper or maybe the be able to but the parts to start building an upper.
45056
My first tool arrived, the Magpul wrench! Yeah I could have gone cheaper with something else, but I was able to get my PRS stock installed last night so I'm happy. Going to try the bottle opener later tonight, I'll update with my review on that.
So as per some recommendations here is what I also have on order, these are what I decided could be used by me now with my limited knowledge.
1)Magpul Wrench (already here)
2)Starrett S565WB Drive Pin Punch 8-Piece Set
3)Fixxxer Hollow End Stainless Steel Starter Punch Set
4)Aeroshell 33ms
5)Brownells MAGNA-TIP screwdriver Standard Set No. 1 w/ #81 Handle 24pc
6)BROWNELLS - 1" NYLON/BRASS HAMMER
7)BROWNELLS Roll Pin, Set 1/16 in, 1/8 in, 3/16 in, 3/32 in, 5/64 in
8)BROWNELLS - AR-15 PIVOT PIN DETENT INSTALLATION TOOL
9)BROWNELLS - BOLT CATCH PIN PUNCH
10)PlastiXrevolution AR15 Deluxe Upper & Lower Vise Block + Cleaning & Trigger Test
I have two triggers to install, my SSA-E and an SSA that I just ordered so I'll be able to try some of these tools pretty quickly.
I think for now this will be a good start and I'll be able to pick up the rest along the way as needed. And my Tax rebate is almost exhausted so I have enough for one more complete upper or maybe the be able to but the parts to start building an upper.
45056
Nice. I would recommend an extended length starter and finishing roll pin punches for the bolt catch. You may find better than Wheeler's punches, but these two (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/451097/wheeler-engineering-delta-series-ar-15-bolt-catch-installation-punch-kit?cm_mmc=se_service-_-misfire-_-confirm-_-20170410-_-ProductLink) are quite nice for the price.
I cringe when I see the nitwits on youtube installing that pin with vice grips or channel locks...
Nice. I would recommend an extended length starter and finishing roll pin punches for the bolt catch. You may find better than Wheeler's punches, but these two (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/451097/wheeler-engineering-delta-series-ar-15-bolt-catch-installation-punch-kit?cm_mmc=se_service-_-misfire-_-confirm-_-20170410-_-ProductLink) are quite nice for the price.
I cringe when I see the nitwits on youtube installing that pin with vice grips or channel locks...
Thanks, those do look nice.
But I already ordered the BROWNELLS - BOLT CATCH PIN PUNCH which is number nine in my list and the Fixxxer Hollow End Stainless Steel Starter Punch Set (#3 on the list) includes a 1/16" starter punch for the roll pin on a AR15 bolt catch release.
Is 1/16" the wrong size?
Thanks, those do look nice.
But I already ordered the BROWNELLS - BOLT CATCH PIN PUNCH which is number nine in my list and the Fixxxer Hollow End Stainless Steel Starter Punch Set (#3 on the list) includes a 1/16" starter punch for the roll pin on a AR15 bolt catch release.
Is 1/16" the wrong size?
Damn, I missed that in your list. Sorry - I'm sure they'll work just fine.
Damn, I missed that in your list. Sorry - I'm sure they'll work just fine.
Okay, thanks. To be honest a lot of these tools look the same to me so I wasn't sure if I missed something in the wording on the title of the punch I bought. Thankfully most posters added links which made it fool proof to order even for an old Grunt like me.
GallagherRayS
04-15-17, 16:56
I cringe when I see the nitwits on youtube installing that pin with vice grips or channel locks...
Why? For a first time builder it is way easier than doing it with punches. Before I knew they had specific punches for that task I was using standard ones, even with tape ended up scratching my receiver pretty good, got fed up and thought to use the channel locks, as long as the jaws are taped there isn't an issue.
If there is some evidence of this technique causing problems with the build, let me know because I have 4 personal rifles and 3 rifles of a friend done this way with no issues so far. Also, only one time did I scratch a receiver doing this, and that was an Anderson lower that I don't give a crap about so I didn't tape the jaws up, and even then it was tiny.
-Ray
Why? For a first time builder it is way easier than doing it with punches. Before I knew they had specific punches for that task I was using standard ones, even with tape ended up scratching my receiver pretty good, got fed up and thought to use the channel locks, as long as the jaws are taped there isn't an issue.
If there is some evidence of this technique causing problems with the build, let me know because I have 4 personal rifles and 3 rifles of a friend done this way with no issues so far. Also, only one time did I scratch a receiver doing this, and that was an Anderson lower that I don't give a crap about so I didn't tape the jaws up, and even then it was tiny.
-Ray
Ray,
How can you say it's way easier when you've obviously never used the right tool? I guess it's a good thing that the one you did bugger up is the one you say you don't care about.
"The right tool for the right job" is a philosophy I've adhered to for nearly six decades and it has served me well. There's no excuse for marring an expensive rifle for lack of a $12 pair of punches.
GallagherRayS
04-15-17, 19:14
Ray,
How can you say it's way easier when you've obviously never used the right tool? I guess it's a good thing that the one you did bugger up is the one you say you don't care about.
"The right tool for the right job" is a philosophy I've adhered to for nearly six decades and it has served me well. There's no excuse for marring an expensive rifle for lack of a $12 pair of punches.
True, which is why I use the reaction rod from geissele (on sale for $75 here (http://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-reaction-rod-for-ar-15-uppers-ga-rrd) BTW) for all on my upper work.
And I meant that it was easier than using standard punches, once I figured that one out I haven't looked back. Just learned about the bolt catch punches recently so I might pick up a pair just to try them.
All I'm trying to say is there is no reason to call me a nitwit when it obviously works and has no more danger of marring than the old standby. I recently saw a video, I want to say it was IV8888's, where they used a vise with hard rubber jaws to start that pin, if we want to talk safest route I'd say that one has the least likelihood of scratching the receiver. Insert phrase about cats and skinning here.
Edit: I'm not saying don't buy the punches, definitely buy the punches if you can, I just didn't know they existed when I was building.
RobertTheTexan
04-15-17, 19:25
My first tool arrived, the Magpul wrench! Yeah I could have gone cheaper with something else, but I was able to get my PRS stock installed last night so I'm happy. Going to try the bottle opener later tonight, I'll update with my review on that.
So as per some recommendations here is what I also have on order, these are what I decided could be used by me now with my limited knowledge.
1)Magpul Wrench (already here)
2)Starrett S565WB Drive Pin Punch 8-Piece Set
3)Fixxxer Hollow End Stainless Steel Starter Punch Set
4)Aeroshell 33ms
5)Brownells MAGNA-TIP screwdriver Standard Set No. 1 w/ #81 Handle 24pc
6)BROWNELLS - 1" NYLON/BRASS HAMMER
7)BROWNELLS Roll Pin, Set 1/16 in, 1/8 in, 3/16 in, 3/32 in, 5/64 in
8)BROWNELLS - AR-15 PIVOT PIN DETENT INSTALLATION TOOL
9)BROWNELLS - BOLT CATCH PIN PUNCH
10)PlastiXrevolution AR15 Deluxe Upper & Lower Vise Block + Cleaning & Trigger Test
I have two triggers to install, my SSA-E and an SSA that I just ordered so I'll be able to try some of these tools pretty quickly.
I think for now this will be a good start and I'll be able to pick up the rest along the way as needed. And my Tax rebate is almost exhausted so I have enough for one more complete upper or maybe the be able to but the parts to start building an upper.
45056
This should be the "tool box list" of any aspiring AR builder. Good job!!
And good job on your two AR's- the both loom really nice but I'm partial to your SPR with the monopod. Did you buy completed uppers for these two builds or did you assemble both upper and lower yourself?
I think most people will tell you buying a complete upper makes more sense and that you don't save any money by building out the upper yourself. You know that's a very valid point. The latter point I would debate depending on your build strategy and parts selection. The latter part is debatable depending on your approach. I really enjoy the process of the build. Today I shot my DMR (.308) for the first time. You know it's just an amazing feeling when you put a lot into the firearm, and you take it to the range for the first time. I may enjoy that feeling just a liiiiiiittle too much though. Lol. Either way you go, I'm sure you will put together a well built firearm and do it with the right tools for the job!
Looking at your "stable", the only thing missing is an SBR. Have you considered that?
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Don't forget to get a few extra detente pins, maybe springs too. When they fly, and they will regardless of tool, your stuck until your next order arrives.
Rarely are they ever recovered.
True, which is why I use the reaction rod from geissele (on sale for $75 here (http://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-reaction-rod-for-ar-15-uppers-ga-rrd) BTW) for all on my upper work.
And I meant that it was easier than using standard punches, once I figured that one out I haven't looked back. Just learned about the bolt catch punches recently so I might pick up a pair just to try them.
All I'm trying to say is there is no reason to call me a nitwit when it obviously works and has no more danger of marring than the old standby. I recently saw a video, I want to say it was IV8888's, where they used a vise with hard rubber jaws to start that pin, if we want to talk safest route I'd say that one has the least likelihood of scratching the receiver. Insert phrase about cats and skinning here.
Edit: I'm not saying don't buy the punches, definitely buy the punches if you can, I just didn't know they existed when I was building.
Ray,
I wasn't pointing a finger at you, you outed yourself on that one. ;) Seriously, it's one thing not to know about the right punches and it's quite another when these youtubers post "how to" videos and proceed to demonstrate that they don't know WTF they're talking about. Unless you're one of "them" then I was not talking about you.
I bought the Magpul BEV Block and it's OK, but I wish it fit more snugly into the barrel extension. My fear is that the sloppy fit will chew the locking lugs. It does also pin to the pivot pin hole, so maybe my fears are unfounded. Do you feel a bunch of play rotationally when you mount an upper on your Reaction Rod? (THAT sounded weird!) ;)
Hey guys, I have the Brownell's bolt catch tool.
What I do is take a 3/32 roll pin holder and start the pin from the left. Then I install the bolt catch and use 3/32 pin punch inserted from the right as a slave pin to hold it in place.
This is a super-special punch available only from me. It is designed to fit only half way through the bolt catch. I normally sell them for 20.00 but I'll tell you have to make one because I'm a nice guy. Take your receiver and insert the 3/32 pin punch 1/2 way through the opening and use a sharpie to mark the shaft where it enters the bolt catch 'ear.' I've used the same punch as a slave on several installs without having to re-mark the shaft.
Install the bolt catch spring, plunger and catch, run it through until it touches the roll pin you've started and then back it out to the edge of your mark - this makes sure things are lined up.
At this point I use painter's tape to hold the slave pin in place, remove the receiver from the mag well block and place it with the receiver extension end of the receiver flat on the bench. I prefer to tap straight down when I can alter the work piece to do so. I tape the slave pin in place because I only have two hands and a small child is not always available.
Using the Brownell's tool and an 8oz ball pein I give the roll pin a firm tap, check alignment and then another. At that point the roll pin has usually displaced the slave pin slightly. In any event I check it and if it is holding the bolt catch I remove the slave pin and reinstall the receiver onto the mag well block.
I finish seating the roll pin using the smaller of these parallel jaws compound pliers with taped jaws: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-Compound-Leverage-Self-Adjusting-Tongue-and-Groove-Pliers/999957733 (I bought them on sale)
The reason I like using the pliers is because I can 'feel' whats going on. I sometimes hold the receiver at this point instead of replacing onto mag block.
After I have it seated as much as the pliers will allow, if needed, I remove the receiver from the mag block and reorient the receiver with the extension end down onto my bench, I use the Brownell's bolt catch tool to seat to proper depth.
This takes longer than just using the bolt catch tool, but I haven't marked a receiver at all doing a bolt catch install or replacement.
For replacements, use the Brownell's tool to drive the roll pin out just far enough so the bolt catch will come free. You'll know the proper depth if you mark the bolt catch punch first.
Hey guys, I have the Brownell's bolt catch tool.
What I do is take a 3/32 roll pin holder and start the pin from the left. Then I install the bolt catch and use 3/32 pin punch inserted from the right as a slave pin to hold it in place.
This is a super-special punch available only from me. It is designed to fit only half way through the bolt catch. I normally sell them for 20.00 but I'll tell you have to make one because I'm a nice guy. Take your receiver and insert the 3/32 pin punch 1/2 way through the opening and use a sharpie to mark the shaft where it enters the bolt catch 'ear.' I've used the same punch as a slave on several installs without having to re-mark the shaft.
Install the bolt catch spring, plunger and catch, run it through until it touches the roll pin you've started and then back it out to the edge of your mark - this makes sure things are lined up.
At this point I use painter's tape to hold the slave pin in place, remove the receiver from the mag well block and place it with the receiver extension end of the receiver flat on the bench. I prefer to tap straight down when I can alter the work piece to do so. I tape the slave pin in place because I only have two hands and a small child is not always available.
Using the Brownell's tool and an 8oz ball pein I give the roll pin a firm tap, check alignment and then another. At that point the roll pin has usually displaced the slave pin slightly. In any event I check it and if it is holding the bolt catch I remove the slave pin and reinstall the receiver onto the mag well block.
I finish seating the roll pin using the smaller of these parallel jaws compound pliers with taped jaws: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-Compound-Leverage-Self-Adjusting-Tongue-and-Groove-Pliers/999957733 (I bought them on sale)
The reason I like using the pliers is because I can 'feel' whats going on. I sometimes hold the receiver at this point instead of replacing onto mag block.
After I have it seated as much as the pliers will allow, if needed, I remove the receiver from the mag block and reorient the receiver with the extension end down onto my bench, I use the Brownell's bolt catch tool to seat to proper depth.
This takes longer than just using the bolt catch tool, but I haven't marked a receiver at all doing a bolt catch install or replacement.
For replacements, use the Brownell's tool to drive the roll pin out just far enough so the bolt catch will come free. You'll know the proper depth if you mark the bolt catch punch first.
You should make a youtube video of it, but don't forget the lapping compound so the pin won't slip out. ;)
For spring-loaded small parts, work inside a plastic bag. Recovery is virtually guaranteed.
Don't forget to get a few extra detente pins, maybe springs too. When they fly, and they will regardless of tool, your stuck until your next order arrives.
Rarely are they ever recovered.
GallagherRayS
04-15-17, 21:56
I bought the Magpul BEV Block and it's OK, but I wish it fit more snugly into the barrel extension. My fear is that the sloppy fit will chew the locking lugs. It does also pin to the pivot pin hole, so maybe my fears are unfounded. Do you feel a bunch of play rotationally when you mount an upper on your Reaction Rod? (THAT sounded weird!) ;)
Very minimal, it's pretty solid all the way. When I install rails like the DD I don't even have the lugs engaged after the barrel nut is torqued, just riding in the upper and it's tight enough that it does not rotate unless I move it (if you've installed one you know how it is to get those screws going).
I like that I don't need to use my BCG to secure the upper with it since half the time I'm doing a build I don't have one yet, and my bench vise is in the garage so that would be another part to haul out there to work with.
You should make a youtube video of it, but don't forget the lapping compound so the pin won't slip out. ;)
but don't forget the lapping compound so the pin won't slip out.
I'm not understanding that, I've never heard that before.
RobertTheTexan
04-15-17, 23:19
Don't forget to get a few extra detente pins, maybe springs too. When they fly, and they will regardless of tool, your stuck until your next order arrives.
Rarely are they ever recovered.
This isS a very good point Hart. I actually keep a mangled take down spring right in front of my vise where I do my lower work. It's a constant reminder to take things slow, concentrate on my current task and be patient.
That and I always have a few of these in my spare parts inventory, when I am none of the above. Lol
https://dsgarms.com/dsg-4201-0028
I use DSG Arms Enhanced LPK (-) trigger on every single build I do. They are one of Texas' best GS.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170416/f507f3e6781b152a066722f745723aee.jpg
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but don't forget the lapping compound so the pin won't slip out.
I'm not understanding that, I've never heard that before.
You know, so the grit will help the pin stay in place... I was kidding, brother. You got me on April Fool's Day, but not twice... ;)
RobertTheTexan
04-16-17, 08:38
My
10)PlastiXrevolution AR15 Deluxe Upper & Lower Vise Block + Cleaning & Trigger Test
How big is your vise? The maximum distance your vise jaws will open?
I just want to make sure you don't have an issue when you get the PlastiX Vise block. You need to have at least a 4" vise. By the way I used mine, (same as yours but for AR10) night before last to finish my DMR build.
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How big is your vise? The maximum distance your vise jaws will open?
I just want to make sure you don't have an issue when you get the PlastiX Vise block. You need to have at least a 4" vise. By the way I used mine, (same as yours but for AR10) night before last to finish my DMR build.
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6 1/2in, it pretty good size.
This should be the "tool box list" of any aspiring AR builder. Good job!!
And good job on your two AR's- the both loom really nice but I'm partial to your SPR with the monopod. Did you buy completed uppers for these two builds or did you assemble both upper and lower yourself?
I think most people will tell you buying a complete upper makes more sense and that you don't save any money by building out the upper yourself. You know that's a very valid point. The latter point I would debate depending on your build strategy and parts selection. The latter part is debatable depending on your approach. I really enjoy the process of the build. Today I shot my DMR (.308) for the first time. You know it's just an amazing feeling when you put a lot into the firearm, and you take it to the range for the first time. I may enjoy that feeling just a liiiiiiittle too much though. Lol. Either way you go, I'm sure you will put together a well built firearm and do it with the right tools for the job!
Looking at your "stable", the only thing missing is an SBR. Have you considered that?
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My S&W sport II was a complete rifle, and I bought a complete DD upper and two complete lowers.
I was able to use the punches and trigger block yesterday installing my SSA-E on the SPR, GREAT TRIGGER!
I'll install the new SSA that I ordered yesterday in my sport II , when it arrives. I really like these punches you recommended.
I still don't understand the SBR, I thought legally 16" was the shortest barrel you could go? How is everyone owning all these SBR's I keep seeing ?
Now, the bolt catch is probably the most annoying thing to install but I have found a trick. Take a pair of standard sized channel locks, wrap the jaws in painters tape or masking tape
It's your rifle, it's your money, but there is a better tool for the job, one that is easier to use than Channel Locks and less likely to mar the finish
I finish seating the roll pin using the smaller of these parallel jaws compound pliers with taped jaws: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-Compound-Leverage-Self-Adjusting-Tongue-and-Groove-Pliers/999957733
A better tool than Channel Locks or the Kobalt pliers are the smooth jawed pliers made by Knipex. The jaws are always parallel to each other and give you a good feel while pressing pins into place. They are what I prefer to use when installing trigger guards because they support the ear and prevent it from breaking
How is everyone owning all these SBR's I keep seeing ?
By filling out the proper forms and paying the $200 sin tax
556BlackRifle
04-16-17, 11:22
Why? For a first time builder it is way easier than doing it with punches. Before I knew they had specific punches for that task I was using standard ones, even with tape ended up scratching my receiver pretty good, got fed up and thought to use the channel locks, as long as the jaws are taped there isn't an issue.
If there is some evidence of this technique causing problems with the build, let me know because I have 4 personal rifles and 3 rifles of a friend done this way with no issues so far. Also, only one time did I scratch a receiver doing this, and that was an Anderson lower that I don't give a crap about so I didn't tape the jaws up, and even then it was tiny.
-Ray
What bugs me is when they use a framing hammer to drive pins. ;)
I've tried all of those methods and while they work, there is a higher degree of risk associated with using them. Personally, I use a mag block and set the lower 90 degrees offset in the vice and use the correct tools. (starter and punch) I feel the risk of damage is much lower and since most people don't like their lower to be mucked up by some shadetree gunsmithing, everyone should be happy with the end result.
ETA: The above is related to bolt catch pin installation.
For trigger guard installation I use a bench block that the lower fits into and drive the pins with the appropriate starter and punch. I've never broken an ear off and hope that I never will.
I actually own the Knipex parallel jaw pliers and while they are a very nice set of pliers I don't use them for AR assembly work.
The only reason that I bought them was because I thought that they might come in handy someday. ;)
By filling out the proper forms and paying the $200 sin tax
Hmm, interesting. Is there any wait like the suppressor stamp or just fill out the paper work pay and walk out with an SBR?
RobertTheTexan
04-16-17, 12:21
Hmm, interesting. Is there any wait like the suppressor stamp or just fill out the paper work pay and walk out with an SBR?
Pay and wait friend...
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Pay and wait friend...
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Thanks I just read up on it, which I should have done before asking.
Maybe I should put in for a suppressor stamp and SBR stamp at the same time and attempt an 9-10" 300 BLK upper build for my extra lower?
Getting off subject but I'm getting some new ideas anyways.......
You know, so the grit will help the pin stay in place... I was kidding, brother. You got me on April Fool's Day, but not twice... ;)
LOL - I was thinking, wait a minute that is BS.
Don't forget to get a few extra detente pins, maybe springs too. When they fly, and they will regardless of tool, your stuck until your next order arrives.
Rarely are they ever recovered.
Anyone have a line on reliable extra springs or are they all the same? I looked at the kit on DSG but the shipping is almost as much as the kit itself. I see a few kits on ebay for the same price with free shipping, but if there is a better way to go I'm all ears.
Anyone have a line on reliable extra springs or are they all the same? I looked at the kit on DSG but the shipping is almost as much as the kit itself. I see a few kits on ebay for the same price with free shipping, but if there is a better way to go I'm all ears.
ETA: BLUF I would stay away from any springs not specifically designed for the rifle, mil-spec would list spring steel material, diameter, number of coils, etc. Ball point pin springs (as an example) probably not.
My strategy is anytime I order something from Brownell's or a similar vendor I add in about $10.00 - $15.00 worth of small parts - coil springs, plungers, detents, circlips and roll pins. The good thing about Brownel's is they usually list a couple vendors, so you can pick based on that if you are so inclined.
You can source roll pins locally if you know the sizes. It is more convenient to order them from Brownell's etc, but if you get jammed up and don't want to wait, a good hardware store or industrial supply will have most sizes.
ETA: BLUF I would stay away from any springs not specifically designed for the rifle, mil-spec would list spring steel material, diameter, number of coils, etc. Ball point pin springs (as an example) probably not.
My strategy is anytime I order something from Brownell's or a similar vendor I add in about $10.00 - $15.00 worth of small parts - coil springs, plungers, detents, circlips and roll pins. The good thing about Brownel's is they usually list a couple vendors, so you can pick based on that if you are so inclined.
You can source roll pins locally if you know the sizes. It is more convenient to order them from Brownell's etc, but if you get jammed up and don't want to wait, a good hardware store or industrial supply will have most sizes.
That sounds like a sound strategy, I'm up in the air currently with Brownells shipping. It's a little slow, not as slow as Optics planet but I try to buy from places that have a little faster shipping. PSA has it to me in a couple days so I order a lot from them. That's for another thread.....
Since all the tools I ordered so far have arrived I decided to put them to use this morning.
My current AR's are 1) S&W M&P sport II with OEM trigger and Aimpoint pro, since I had the PRS stock on my BCM lower I also put the BCM QD endplate on my S&W.
2) Daniel Defense M4V11 PRO complete upper with BCM complete lower, the BCM lower has the PRS stock and Geissele SSA-E trigger installed. For optics it has the Vortec Viper 6.5-20 scope and magpul pro offset sights.
Last week I picked up a complete DD lower, and today I have a 16" BCM upper being delivered.
So getting to the point, I wanted the DD lower with the DD upper and needed to get the BCM lower ready for the new upper.
First thing I did was removed all three lowers and then all three buffer tubes, the PRS went on the DD lower and the BCM QD plate went back on the BCM lower with it's origanl tube back on.
The S&W I added the DD QD plate since it didn't have one from the factory. I was able to try out my auto center punch staking the BCM and S&W lowers, works very well for what it does.
Next I removed the SSA-E and installed it in the DD lower, and installed and SSA in the BCM. The stock BCM trigger felt much cleaner than my S&W trigger so I installed that in the sport II as well.
Tried out the PlastiXrevolution trigger tester, works as advertised.
I have the magpul front and rear BUIS here for the BCM and ordered a Vortec SPARC since it was on sale, I'll have to see if I like it or not.
The geissele trigger pins seem firm and in place, the BCM and S&W pins feel like they would start to slip back out easily. I currenty have the BCM pins with the BCM trigger in the sport II. Do most owners just leave them like that or is ordering Geissele pins pretty common for a more secure fit? I have the pins installed correctly.
I'm not a fan of the pins with the anti rotation modification but are they more preferred?
Again thanks for all the help guiding me in the right direction on the tools, I think this will be a good start and plan to pick up a KAC stripped lower next month since my local shop has some ans start slow and just assemble a complete lower.
When I start the upper I'll have more questions so I'll wait till then. Added some picks of the tools and the Sport and BCM trigger, the silver is the BCM for those that don't already know.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4537/37672381205_e33b933f7d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZoYNrT)IMG_8368 (https://flic.kr/p/ZoYNrT) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr
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RobertTheTexan
04-26-17, 10:38
Sounds like you are in store for a lot of fun! The tools look great. I use some KNS anti walk pins, although last night I ran into a hammer pin that was out of spec on a lower I was building. I've also used CMC's anti-walk pins. The CMC has a cleaner look, and they run about $11 bucks, almost a 1/3 of the price of KNS and they do the job just fine. Here's a link to them if you want to take a look. You'll note there is not bar, just a trigger pin and hammer pin with screws and a Torx wrench. I prefer to use some kind of anti-walk pin since I had one pin partially slip out (it was an "experimental" lower, but I just made them a part of my build SOP.)
https://dsgarms.com/cmc91401
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Since all the tools I ordered so far have arrived I decided to put them to use this morning.
My current AR's are 1) S&W M&P sport II with OEM trigger and Aimpoint pro, since I had the PRS stock on my BCM lower I also put the BCM QD endplate on my S&W.
2) Daniel Defense M4V11 PRO complete upper with BCM complete lower, the BCM lower has the PRS stock and Geissele SSA-E trigger installed. For optics it has the Vortec Viper 6.5-20 scope and magpul pro offset sights.
Last week I picked up a complete DD lower, and today I have a 16" BCM upper being delivered.
So getting to the point, I wanted the DD lower with the DD upper and needed to get the BCM lower ready for the new upper.
First thing I did was removed all three lowers and then all three buffer tubes, the PRS went on the DD lower and the BCM QD plate went back on the BCM lower with it's origanl tube back on.
The S&W I added the DD QD plate since it didn't have one from the factory. I was able to try out my auto center punch staking the BCM and S&W lowers, works very well for what it does.
Next I removed the SSA-E and installed it in the DD lower, and installed and SSA in the BCM. The stock BCM trigger felt much cleaner than my S&W trigger so I installed that in the sport II as well.
Tried out the PlastiXrevolution trigger tester, works as advertised.
I have the magpul front and rear BUIS here for the BCM and ordered a Vortec SPARC since it was on sale, I'll have to see if I like it or not.
The geissele trigger pins seem firm and in place, the BCM and S&W pins feel like they would start to slip back out easily. I currenty have the BCM pins with the BCM trigger in the sport II. Do most owners just leave them like that or is ordering Geissele pins pretty common for a more secure fit? I have the pins installed correctly.
I'm not a fan of the pins with the anti rotation modification but are they more preferred?
Again thanks for all the help guiding me in the right direction on the tools, I think this will be a good start and plan to pick up a KAC stripped lower next month since my local shop has some ans start slow and just assemble a complete lower.
When I start the upper I'll have more questions so I'll wait till then. Added some picks of the tools and the Sport and BCM trigger, the silver is the BCM for those that don't already know.
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That is a BCM PNT (Polished Nickel Teflon) trigger. It's an upgraded Mil Spec trigger that they sell for about $60 (but install in their lowers).
I'll add that it's a nice trigger, so no surprise that it felt better than your stock S&W.
That is a BCM PNT (Polished Nickel Teflon) trigger. It's an upgraded Mil Spec trigger that they sell for about $60 (but install in their lowers).
Many, many years ago I was into anti-walk pins only because the aftermarket (like JP) didn't use j-springs in their speed hammers (later versions). However, I have never had a mil-spec pin walk out with correct installation.
FondaBellamy
04-28-17, 00:26
Great advice. Thanks for sharing.
This should be the "tool box list" of any aspiring AR builder. Good job!!
I'm in the process of acquiring parts for a build, and the associated tools. Based on everything I've read, is there any reason to get a drive pin punch set? Seems like most folks recommend just a roll pin punch set and a starter punch set. Am I missing something?
Also, is there any benefit (other than cost) to getting something like a PlastiXrevolution upper vice block or a clamshell vice block, over a Gieselle reaction rod or magpul BEV block? Seems like anything that doesn't lock into the barrel extension would just toque the upper receiver, and possible damage it.
I'm in the process of acquiring parts for a build, and the associated tools. Based on everything I've read, is there any reason to get a drive pin punch set? Seems like most folks recommend just a roll pin punch set and a starter punch set. Am I missing something?
Also, is there any benefit (other than cost) to getting something like a PlastiXrevolution upper vice block or a clamshell vice block, over a Gieselle reaction rod or magpul BEV block? Seems like anything that doesn't lock into the barrel extension would just toque the upper receiver, and possible damage it.
First, you'll need a flat punch to remove the trigger and hammer pins if you ever do any maintenance.
I have only used the typical clamshell and the Magpul BEV Block. The BEV block is a cool idea, but mine at least seems to fit rather sloppy. The upside is that it doubles as a lower receiver block. The clamshell has been in use for MANY years and if you think about it, torquing the barrel nut onto the receiver is exactly what you're supposed to be doing.
I can see you logic possibly being applicable when cranking down on a muzzle device and crush washer, but is it enough to make a difference? Again, this is a weapon system that's gone without BEV Blocks and Reaction Rods for decades. The one thing I see that I think is cool about the Reaction Rod (again, I've never used one) is that you can easily index your upper onto it at different angles like I saw in a video where a guy was making an instructional video for installing Midwest Industries rails.
First, you'll need a flat punch to remove the trigger and hammer pins if you ever do any maintenance.
I have only used the typical clamshell and the Magpul BEV Block. The BEV block is a cool idea, but mine at least seems to fit rather sloppy. The upside is that it doubles as a lower receiver block. The clamshell has been in use for MANY years and if you think about it, torquing the barrel nut onto the receiver is exactly what you're supposed to be doing.
Thanks, that's helpful. Do you often remove the trigger and hammer pins to conducts maintenance, or is it more of a "random occasion" thing?
Wanting to torque the barrel nut directly onto the receiver makes sense now that you say that. Given that comment, it seems like a clamshell would be safer than one of those plastiXrevolution blocks which could place undo stress on the pivot and takedown lugs. Although, maybe I'm overthinking this and underestimating the strength/durability of these parts...:confused:
Thanks, that's helpful. Do you often remove the trigger and hammer pins to conducts maintenance, or is it more of a "random occasion" thing?
Wanting to torque the barrel nut directly onto the receiver makes sense now that you say that. Given that comment, it seems like a clamshell would be safer than one of those plastiXrevolution blocks which could place undo stress on the pivot and takedown lugs. Although, maybe I'm overthinking this and underestimating the strength/durability of these parts...:confused:
I'm new to this as well hence the starting of the thread, to answer your first question I guess would depend on how many rifles you have and if you like to upgrade parts at all.
I currently have three AR's, and my old triggers have been replaced with new in all three. And on top of that I moved different triggers around to better suit my needs(wants).
So the flat punches I just bought get used more than any of the other tools so far.
The plastiXrevolution blocks haven't been used yet, but the kit I bought also had their trigger tester that has been used on every trigger i installed. I haven't reached the level yet to try the rest of the kit but i'll have everything by time i get there.
Thanks, that's helpful. Do you often remove the trigger and hammer pins to conducts maintenance, or is it more of a "random occasion" thing?
Wanting to torque the barrel nut directly onto the receiver makes sense now that you say that. Given that comment, it seems like a clamshell would be safer than one of those plastiXrevolution blocks which could place undo stress on the pivot and takedown lugs. Although, maybe I'm overthinking this and underestimating the strength/durability of these parts...:confused:
I took an armorers course at Academi for my own edification, but I am NOT a working armorer and I lack the long experience that most of them have. Everything I say is worth exactly what you paid for it. :D
Having said that, I tend to think that the vast majority of AR shooters will never remove those pins unless they decide to replace their G.I. type trigger/hammer with something fancier. I've been shooting (not repairing) the AR platform since I went to Parris Island 42 years ago and I've never seen anyone need to have those parts replaced. WORKING armorers may have a different story to tell.
I have the punches because a) as a Cowboy Action shooter, I work on more than just AR's and b) I like to dink around with my toys. The trigger on my last build is a bit grittier than I like, so I've ordered a nickle/teflon hammer/trigger set to drop in. If you are going to be building rifles, then I just assumed that you would probably find yourself dinking around with them as well.
I've never used a PlastiXrevolution block, but it's my understanding that they are useful when working on milled (rather than forged) receivers because many of them will not fit properly into a standard clamshell. The Reaction Rod and BEV Block both have that same advantage, but the PlastiXrevolution block may have some other feature that I'm not aware of.
I'm happy with my clamshell and BEV Block, but I wouldn't avoid the PlastiXrevolution because of the receiver lugs. If you manage to bend your receiver, then I tend to think you're far exceeding the upper torque limit of 85 ft/lbs. Again, my advice is worth every penny you paid for it...
Good stuff, thanks for the knowledge. Seems like I'm definitely overthinking this...
Here's the list were I to start today:
Quality vice
Magpul Bev block
Magpul armorers wrench
Snap on or other quality torque wrench
Brownells front sight block
Wheeler AR block
Grace roll pin punches and roll pin starter punches. A quality flat punch set as well.
Geisselle reaction rod
Brass hammer and poly hammer
Pair of needle nose pliers
Gas block jigs from BRD
Gas block roll pin starter tool front brownells.
Quality gunsmithing screw driver set
Quality Allen wrench set
Staking punch. I use a center punch.
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RobertTheTexan
04-30-17, 17:59
Anyone have a line on reliable extra springs or are they all the same? I looked at the kit on DSG but the shipping is almost as much as the kit itself. I see a few kits on ebay for the same price with free shipping, but if there is a better way to go I'm all ears.
Yeah their shipping is pretty standard in terms of priority mail. I like them because I know what I'm getting. The springs in their spring kit are the same springs they use in their LPK. Which is mil spec all day.
If steer clear of any small parts off eBay unless it's someone very trustworthy. China is making more AR-15 parts than we probably realize. 26_Inf make a good point. For example, when I'm ordering a barrel or something from Ballistic Advantage I will usually add a melonited gas tube to my cart. Likewise when buying something from DSG I will throw a spring kit or two in my shopping cart.
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RobertTheTexan
04-30-17, 18:29
I'm in the process of acquiring parts for a build, and the associated tools. Based on everything I've read, is there any reason to get a drive pin punch set? Seems like most folks recommend just a roll pin punch set and a starter punch set. Am I missing something?
I don't use starter punches. Not saying you shouldn't, just that I don't. I prefer my started punches and my Starrett punches. They are hands down the best punches I've used. That set up has served me well, I've replaced gas block pins, gas tube pins, trigger pins etc and never make them "unusable" but using my Starrett punches.
Also, is there any benefit (other than cost) to getting something like a PlastiXrevolution upper vice block or a clamshell vice block, over a Gieselle reaction rod or magpul BEV block? Seems like anything that doesn't lock into the barrel extension would just toque the upper receiver, and possible damage it.
I have a Magpul BEV block and Locutus is correct it's not super tight fitting. However when use use my bolt carrier in conjunction it feels more snug to me. I used my when I built my 11.5 upper. I built hat wig a KAC URX 4 rail which has the barrel nut built in. In spite of their shims and using the KAC "o'clock" method, I still ended up using close to 70 ft lbs of torque to get my rail to TDC.
As far as Plastix Revolutions - their upper vise block works. I have their AR-10 version and am very happy. They have a variant that comes with these two pieces of thick plexiglas that go over each end of the receiver block. They serve as anti-torque device and it works. That's the biggest advantage of the Plastix Revolution. However I don't think that 70 ft lb of torque is enough to torque an upper receiver. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/3b5c0712c6097e66dd04ba5da869c6e2.jpgThe guy who owns Plastix Rev. will tell you that guys who are trying to remove stuck muzzle devices are the primary user of that kit, but I also like the piece of mind it brings when I'm using it. Also if it matters you can leave your BCG and CH In your upper when using their product. I do have a cheaper Wheeler upper receiver vise block and it has worked many times. I do prefer the Plastix Revolution style better though, I feel it's just more secure.
Here's a pic of their upper receiver block and you can see the two pieces of plexiglass and how they would prevent torquing.
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Do it right and invest in good quality tools. The Magpul Armorer's Wrench and Geissele Reaction Rod would be high on my list of should have items.
I second these. I just picked up the Magpul Armorer's wrench and cannot speak highly enough as to its quality
I have a Magpul BEV block and Locutus is correct it's not super tight fitting. However when use use my bolt carrier in conjunction it feels more snug to me.
So THAT's what that round lug on the opposite side is for! I saw nothing in the instruction sheet explaining that and I wondered why it was there. Now that you mention it, I just had one of those DUH! moments... ;)
RobertTheTexan
05-01-17, 08:38
So THAT's what that round lug on the opposite side is for! I saw nothing in the instruction sheet explaining that and I wondered why it was there. Now that you mention it, I just had one of those DUH! moments... ;)
LOL... happens to all of us at some point. But glad I could help.
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Is there a particular brand to buy for a 5.56 go no-go gauge?
Will the 5.56 and 223 be the same?
Is there a particular brand to buy for a 5.56 go no-go gauge?
I have Clymer 5.56 gauges. You can get them from Brownells. The big deal is make sure the Go and the No Go are from the same manufacturer.
Will the 5.56 and 223 be the same?
You'll get different answers on that. As you can see the .223 and 5.56 GO are the same, the NO GO's differ. So I use Clymer 5.56 gauges, but have a .223 NO GO in case I ever get a .223 barrel.
Clymer .223 GO = 1.4636 / 5.56 GO = 1.4636
Clymer .223 NO GO = 1.4666 / 5.56 NO GO = 1.4696
As you can see the .223 and 5.56 GO are the same, the NO GO's differ. So I use Clymer 5.56 gauges, but have a Clymer .223 NO GO in case I ever get a .223 barrel.
In reality, unless they are installing receiver extensions, most folks seem to advocate just using a FIELD/MAX gauge. If it closes on the FIELD/MAX gauge don't shoot it.
The disadvantage of this system is that if the rifle is beyond NO GO, but short of the MAX/FIELD you will have reduced brass life. Not a big deal if you are not a reloader.
Forster 5.56 MAX (FIELD) 1.4736
When using the gauges you want to disassemble the bolt to ensure a proper test. Here is the protocol I use, it is printed and folded in the small case I keep my gauges in:
http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Checking-Headspace-Part-II-The-AR-15/detail.htm?lid=17140
I could be wrong but I believe both .223 and 5.56 headspace is measured to a datum line on the chamber shoulder where the diameter equals .330". With that in mind it is my opinion that, at least in theory, a .223 field gauge and a 5.56 field gauge should be interchangeable - they only qualify length and as long as the taper on the end of the gauge is such that it only contacts the chamber on the .330" datum line there won't be any difference. The majority of the differences in the two chamberings are forward of the shoulder anyway.
That said, others will tell you different. Iraqgunz has experienced .223 and 5.56 gauges yielding different results in the same chamber. Keep in mind that the typical tolerance on headspace gauges is 0.0002" (!) so I wouldn't be surprised if there are lots of commercial gauges floating around that aren't measuring what they say they are.
Is there a particular brand to buy for a 5.56 go no-go gauge?
Will the 5.56 and 223 be the same?
I use these, so far so good, somebody recommended them here
https://mansonreamers.com/
You'll get different answers on that. As you can see the .223 and 5.56 GO are the same, the NO GO's differ. So I use Clymer 5.56 gauges, but have a .223 NO GO in case I ever get a .223 barrel.
Clymer .223 GO = 1.4636 / 5.56 GO = 1.4636
Clymer .223 NO GO = 1.4666 / 5.56 NO GO = 1.4696
As you can see the .223 and 5.56 GO are the same, the NO GO's differ. So I use Clymer 5.56 gauges, but have a Clymer .223 NO GO in case I ever get a .223 barrel.
In reality, unless they are installing receiver extensions, most folks seem to advocate just using a FIELD/MAX gauge. If it closes on the FIELD/MAX gauge don't shoot it.
The disadvantage of this system is that if the rifle is beyond NO GO, but short of the MAX/FIELD you will have reduced brass life. Not a big deal if you are not a reloader.
Forster 5.56 MAX (FIELD) 1.4736
When using the gauges you want to disassemble the bolt to ensure a proper test. Here is the protocol I use, it is printed and folded in the small case I keep my gauges in:
http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Checking-Headspace-Part-II-The-AR-15/detail.htm?lid=17140
If you resize the brass to match the chamber, case life will be just fine
If you resize the brass to match the chamber, case life will be just fine
If you have several rifles wouldn't one of the disadvantages of neck resizing vs. full length resizing be that you had to sort and size brass according to which rifle fired it?
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, all the reloading I do is on a RL550 for pistol.
If you have several rifles wouldn't one of the disadvantages of neck resizing vs. full length resizing be that you had to sort and size brass according to which rifle fired it?
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, all the reloading I do is on a RL550 for pistol.
I'm not sure if this is what Wolf is talking about or not, but you can minimally FL reside to adjust to merely "bump" the shoulder back 0.003" or so. To use this brass in multiple rifles, one must size all brass based on the rifle with the shortest headspace.
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If you have several rifles wouldn't one of the disadvantages of neck resizing vs. full length resizing be that you had to sort and size brass according to which rifle fired it?
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, all the reloading I do is on a RL550 for pistol.
There is nothing to forgive.
If you have several rifles of the same caliber, having one rifle with it's headspacing on the long side will complicate things. It's a general rule of thumb that neck sizing only for autoloaders, lever actions and pump actions is a recipe for malfunctions.
Long headspacing can made up for when reloading. The reloader isn't limited to just neck sizing when dealing with long headspacing. A full length die can be set a little long, or special full length die can be made to match the chamber.
26Inf, you are right that it gets complicated when you own several rifles of the same caliber because the brass fired in the rifle with long headspacing must be kept separate from the brass fired in the others. The long headspacing means the shoulders get pushed forward and the brass is too long for the in-spec chambers. The shoulders can be bumped back with a full length sizing die, but the shoulders might collapse during re-sizing. The brass will also get overworked, turn brittle and crack prematurely.
Long headspace isn't a big deal for a reloader that knows what's going on, but it does unnecessarily complicate things
So if all my rifles are 5.56 and I shoot mostly cheap 55gr 223 ammo, should I be checking with a 5.56 or 223 kit?
So THAT's what that round lug on the opposite side is for! I saw nothing in the instruction sheet explaining that and I wondered why it was there. Now that you mention it, I just had one of those DUH! moments... ;)
I finally found a good use for my Colt half-moon carrier ;)
Use a 5.56 Field Gauge.
So if all my rifles are 5.56 and I shoot mostly cheap 55gr 223 ammo, should I be checking with a 5.56 or 223 kit?
Use a 5.56 Field Gauge.
Thanks, I'm ordering one now.
Well I was about to respond but everyone got it covered!
Definitely the Geissele Reaction Rod, any lower vice mount, roll pin punch set, brass hammer and a set of bits (standard, T, metric) like a cheap Ryobi kit. Wrenches and what not depend on what parts you intend to use. There's a lot of proprietary tools.
Oh, a torque wrench will make your life a lot easier!
So I assembled my first lower today, KAC stripped lower/ BCM LPK and A Phase 5 Pistol receiver extension.
Most of the recommended tools made this an almost too simple job, except one. My expensive magpul (bottle opener) didn't fit over the phase 5 buffer tube, yes I did remove the foam pad.
I have used it on my mil spec buffer tubes for putting QD end plates on and when I removed my PRS stock and put the adjustable extension back on. But since I'll be using this pistol tube for a year while I'm waiting for a SBR stamp It looks like I'll need to add another castle nut wrench, I'm thing $20 or less this time (lesson learned).
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4552/38560290491_043d051028_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21KryWF)low (https://flic.kr/p/21KryWF) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4543/37843531384_16b9be8a2d_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZE6Zr3)IMG_8575 (https://flic.kr/p/ZE6Zr3) by hd_rolling (https://www.flickr.com/photos/22585324@N07/), on Flickr
As far as the Geissele reaction rod, has anyone ever tried the Kley-Zion Armors Barrel Spline Socket Rod. It's pretty much a clone but half the price, I've seen quite a few youtube vids that recommended it stating it's the same thing. I'm not sure how often I would be installing barrels since the complete uppers are almost the same price as buying everything and assembling yourself.
I pieced together a 9" BCM 300 BLK using all the BCM parts and it came out to be about a $30 difference, so I would save $30 but the upper would have the 300 BLK logo or the BCM logos on the upper.
titsonritz
06-21-17, 20:42
Most of the recommended tools made this an almost too simple job, except one. My expensive magpul (bottle opener) didn't fit over the phase 5 buffer tube, yes I did remove the foam pad.
I have used it on my mil spec buffer tubes for putting QD end plates on and when I removed my PRS stock and put the adjustable extension back on. But since I'll be using this pistol tube for a year while I'm waiting for a SBR stamp It looks like I'll need to add another castle nut wrench, I'm thing $20 or less this time (lesson learned).
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?197624-Which-Open-Castle-Nut-Wrench
titsonritz
03-12-19, 21:22
I'm in the process of acquiring parts for a build, and the associated tools. Based on everything I've read, is there any reason to get a drive pin punch set? Seems like most folks recommend just a roll pin punch set and a starter punch set. Am I missing something?
Also, is there any benefit (other than cost) to getting something like a PlastiXrevolution upper vice block or a clamshell vice block, over a Gieselle reaction rod or magpul BEV block? Seems like anything that doesn't lock into the barrel extension would just toque the upper receiver, and possible damage it.
I use pin punches to remove pins or use as slave pins, roll pin punches and a starter punches to install the pin. Likewise, I'll use a clamshell to remove a barrel nut and a Geissele Reation Rod to install one.
bigd081285
08-01-19, 17:58
Invest in a good punch set. I went with a cheap one boy did I regret it. Now I have 2 premium ones lol
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