View Full Version : Getting back into shooting after 8 years, what's changed?
TheSmiter1
04-11-17, 11:16
I used to shoot back before I went to college, but gave it up when I went to school in 2009. I did a few years of non profit work, and now I'm finally in a position that I can afford to shoot again. Back when I was researching a good pistol, I used to come to this forum to see what the subject matter experts and high-volume shooters recommended. Back then, it was the M&P, the Glock, and the HK P30/45 for the most part.
When reading the forums now, it seems there are a ton of new pistols that are now considered quality. The PPQ appears to have a good reputation. The VP9 is also considered high quality (it's HK, some things don't change, I guess). The M&P has apparently had quality issues? And CZ and Sig now make good stuff (Sig was hated back then for quality issues)?
I'm just trying to get caught up here. I was planning on getting an M&P 9, but now I'm leaning towards a PPQ or VP9. Are my perceptions correct? Have there been any other major changes I should be aware of?
Welcome back!
The CZ P07 (DA/SA) and P10C (striker) deserve a serious look.
And of course, a quality AR is still fantastic.
You are pretty much right on with you're assessment and current trends. I have a VP9 Tactical and love it. I haven't had any trouble with it at all whatsoever and it's a great fitting pistol ergonomically.
Glocks have always been a great choice and the aftermarket support for them is endless. Recently there have been some issues with brass to face issues that still haven't seemed to be corrected and the finish on the slides is not nearly what it used to be.
Sigs have done well lately especially with the Legions and 320's. I had a 229 Elite Dark and loved it. CZ is making some fantastic handguns and I have them on my short short list of guns to get this year with the Shadow 2 being very high on that list.
I can't speak on the VP9 or M&P, but I love my PPQ M1. The trigger is great for a striker fired pistol, and I love the trigger guard mag release, but that's personal preference. The new CZ P10c looks like it's going to be a winner, but only time will tell. I don't think you'll really go wrong with any of the pistols you've listed. My recommendation is to rent a few of them and see which one you shoot best.
The selection of good pistols is no doubt better and more vast so good luck in selecting the right one. But some things haven't changed, buy quality and being a collector doesn't make one a better shooter.
Oh yes, do get a good AR or some sort of 5.56 carbine.
Kimber has a revolver and Ruger is pushing a 44 Special revolver that is nice. Glock and S&W have great single stack 9mm's.
On the other hand, 45ACP and .40 S&W no long work for self-defense.
I can attest to the PPQ being awesome. To me, the best striker fired pistol on the market from the factory. I currently own 3 different manufacturers. My others are Glocks and H&K.
call_me_ski
04-11-17, 13:35
I'd still approach Sig with some caution as many still report problems with some of their products. Their 320 however seems to be largely G2G and might deserve a look.
Basically if you are not shooting a 9mm polymer striker fired gun you are wrong these days. There are many quality options from the classic players. Rent some and pic the one you like the best.
My list of recommendations in no order at all:
Glock
HK VP9
Sig p320
Walther PPQ
Steyr M9A1
FNH FNS
All of these do exactly as they advertise with the occasional lemon.
TheSmiter1
04-11-17, 15:50
So the M&P really isn't a contender anymore? It's surprising to me because it shoots so nicely and had gone through documented high round counts (Todd Green ran one to about 60k, I believe). It was my favorite pistol back then.
I'll need to check out the ppq and the VP9. Glocks (at least the Gen 3) did not agree with me.
I'm a big CZ fan, have been since the mid 1990's. I prefer the all metal pistols, but their polymer as others have stated (P-07, P-09) and probably the P-10c from the initial reviews are stellar also. If you want something all steel for range, HD, and completion thought the 75B, and SP-01 are great. Nothing wrong with the Walthers, Sigs, XD's, M&P and Glocks though.
TheSmiter1
04-11-17, 16:14
Kimber has a revolver and Ruger is pushing a 44 Special revolver that is nice. Glock and S&W have great single stack 9mm's.
On the other hand, 45ACP and .40 S&W no long work for self-defense.
Yes, I used to read a lot about ballistics and came to the conclusion back in 2009 that 9mm was the best all-around pistol round. Glad to see that it's finally catching on. Federal HST is still among the best. Some things don't change.
Evel Baldgui
04-11-17, 17:30
CZ is a very unappreciated line of pistols.Their P0-7 out of the box is exceeding accurate and reliable, I found it to be as accurate as my VP9 and as reliable as my glock19.
Waiting for the CZ P-10 to hit the market!
Yes, I used to read a lot about ballistics and came to the conclusion back in 2009 that 9mm was the best all-around pistol round. Glad to see that it's finally catching on. Federal HST is still among the best. Some things don't change.
I think 9mm HST is among the very best of the very best.
Just for the record, my statement concerning 45 ACP and .40 is more a reflection of the change in attitudes and technology that has changed over the last eight years in reference to the OPs time frame than it is my own view point.
call_me_ski
04-11-17, 19:04
So the M&P really isn't a contender anymore? It's surprising to me because it shoots so nicely and had gone through documented high round counts (Todd Green ran one to about 60k, I believe). It was my favorite pistol back then.
I'll need to check out the ppq and the VP9. Glocks (at least the Gen 3) did not agree with me.
The 9mm guns were plagued with well documented accuracy problems. The new M2.0 might have solved this but it has not been available long enough to get the all clear.
The CZ P10c has been mentioned a few times but has been delayed and has not been vetted outside the factory/ media so that one is a hard pass for time being unless you are the early adopter type.
crusader377
04-11-17, 20:10
To the OP, The best advice I can give is get a pistol that you like and shoot well with and is of high quality and run with that. It simply isn't worth chasing the new flavor of the month with pistols. There are more good options out there than ever before so find something that you like and focus on practicing.
So the M&P really isn't a contender anymore? It's surprising to me because it shoots so nicely and had gone through documented high round counts (Todd Green ran one to about 60k, I believe). It was my favorite pistol back then.
I'll need to check out the ppq and the VP9. Glocks (at least the Gen 3) did not agree with me.
As a happy m&p owner (40), if I was buying a 9mm today, I'd get the 2.0.
I think the accuracy issues were only a problem for 147gr. I think the 124gr was fine, but let someone verify that (or deny it).
BuzzinSATX
04-11-17, 21:12
On the other hand, 45ACP and .40 S&W no long work for self-defense.
I read your 'for the record' post and still think this was a dumb statement. Sorry if I'm the dummy here, but wtf?
OP, I am newly back to the handgun game and ended up going with a Sig P320C in 9mm. The PPQ and VP9 don't come in a family of sizes (VP9SK rumored soon I think) and I liked the options of different sizes. I am loving the 320 so far.
All good recommendations and its a matter of what works for you. I think the biggest difference is the quality of the triggers in the current line up of striker guns which personally made me move past what Glock is offering.
556BlackRifle
04-11-17, 21:44
There are a lot of good guns out there, many already mentioned. I'd add to the list the Sig P320C. One of the best shooting right out of the box pistols I've ever owned. Another that I like but don't own yet is the H&K VP9. Sportsman's Warehouse had them for $499. I fondled the FDE / night sights version and while I like the FDE, they wanted $799 for that pistol so I walked. The trigger felt great and the weird looking grip was the most comfortable grip I've ever handled.
What type of hand gun shooting are you thinking of doing? Targets, Self Defense, are you planning on the gun for your conceal carry firearm?
Really Depends on what you want and what you want it to do before I can suggest a firearm.
Prices are falling on some guns and I think you will be in a buyers market if we are not in one already.
Drifting Fate
04-11-17, 23:14
Tons of minutia have changed if you want to be in the cool crowd, some things have changed if you are worried about what matters. At the same time nothing has changed: hitting is the point of shooting. If you could do that before, keep on and slooooowly integrate changes if they improve your hits, time, and/or combat effectiveness.
There have been stances, widgets, and what-nots, but the old ways worked then, they work the same now. Reasons for changes? Some have bettered the endeavor, some are for the sake of change and promoting resume's. Dredge through that pile of nonsense and you will find 9 years slip away like nothing and you will be at the top of your game.
They still have sights and triggers! --speedometers and clutch/gas pedal:cool:
tacticaldesire
04-12-17, 07:47
New handguns on the block to look at.
Sig 320
Walther PPQ
HK VP9
Canik TP9SF Elite
M&P 2.0
Whatever flavor of Glock you prefer.
Lots of things haven't changed. What was good in 2009 likely still is. Some things have such as attitudes and tacticoolness. There's still lots of stupid bullshit on the internet that you have to wade and sift through to get anything good.
I think the best value on the market today is the CZ P09/07. My P09 is as accurate as my full house custom Hi Powers and cost like maybe 15% of the custom guns. If you get a fullaction job on the CZ's then the cost maybe goes up to like 25-30% of my high end Hi Powers.
The CZ's are as reliable as a Glock.
I think the best value on the market today is the CZ P09/07. My P09 is as accurate as my full house custom Hi Powers and cost like maybe 15% of the custom guns. If you get a fullaction job on the CZ's then the cost maybe goes up to like 25-30% of my high end Hi Powers.
The CZ's are as reliable as a Glock.
I agree with this.
I tell people ALL the time to look at the P09 or the P07 if wanting something smaller.
Shoot the P09 for awhile and when you want to tinker with it upgrade it with a full CGW kit and you will have a great trigger.
I have a Shadow Custom SP01 that was around $1200 and the P09 will out shoot it. The P09 is also a "softer" pistol to shoot. It handles the recoil and muzzle flip better.
If I was going to start over I would just get a P09 built from CGW and save my money.
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bulldozer3
04-12-17, 11:00
I agree with this.
I tell people ALL the time to look at the P09 or the P07 if wanting something smaller.
Shoot the P09 for awhile and when you want to tinker with it upgrade it with a full CGW kit and you will have a great trigger.
I have a Shadow Custom SP01 that was around $1200 and the P09 will out shoot it. The P09 is also a "softer" pistol to shoot. It handles the core oil and muzzle flip better.
If I was going to start over I would just get a P09 built from CGW and save my money.
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Same here... I have 6 CZ's, and the p09 does shoot softer than my shadow custom. Both amazing guns, but I was able to do the cgw upgrades to the p09 myself in 30 min... cheaper also. Not getting rid of any of them, and now want a po9 urban gray to try out pistol optics
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I can't speak on the VP9 or M&P, but I love my PPQ M1. The trigger is great for a striker fired pistol, and I love the trigger guard mag release, but that's personal preference. The new CZ P10c looks like it's going to be a winner, but only time will tell. I don't think you'll really go wrong with any of the pistols you've listed. My recommendation is to rent a few of them and see which one you shoot best.
I can speak to all three pistols. I have an M&P9L, a VP9, and two PPQs. Skip right over the M&P. Go directly to either the VP9 or the PPQ. Both have excellent triggers, but differ in takeup and reset. I generally prefer the VP9, but I shoot the PPQ better. Are you going to carry the thing or compete with it? If it's a carry gun, my preference would be for none of those three and I'd go for a pistol that's designed around concealability like the Walther PPS M2.
Same here... I have 6 CZ's, and the p09 does shoot softer than my shadow custom. Both amazing guns, but I was able to do the cgw upgrades to the p09 myself in 30 min... cheaper also. Not getting rid of any of them, and now want a po9 urban gray to try out pistol optics
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Like this one ;)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170412/4f5adf91c58667cc47f6c8453f99400f.jpg
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There's a new pistol from Turkey called a Canik. Not a bad striker fire pistol.
Glock has released their MOS line which allows for an optic to be mounted onto a pistol.
S&W M&P 2.0 was released which has a sturdier body and frame.
Many people are customizing their Glocks.
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TheSmiter1
04-13-17, 10:27
I can speak to all three pistols. I have an M&P9L, a VP9, and two PPQs. Skip right over the M&P. Go directly to either the VP9 or the PPQ. Both have excellent triggers, but differ in takeup and reset. I generally prefer the VP9, but I shoot the PPQ better. Are you going to carry the thing or compete with it? If it's a carry gun, my preference would be for none of those three and I'd go for a pistol that's designed around concealability like the Walther PPS M2.
Not really for concealed carry. I'm thinking the VP9. The LE version is $619 at Grab a Gun vs the standard at $519. So $100 more for an extra mag and night sights. I'm thinking that's the better value, since mags are $35 anyway and I'd basically be getting the night sights for $65 when you factor in the extra mag. Would you agree?
Not really for concealed carry. I'm thinking the VP9. The LE version is $619 at Grab a Gun vs the standard at $519. So $100 more for an extra mag and night sights. I'm thinking that's the better value, since mags are $35 anyway and I'd basically be getting the night sights for $65 when you factor in the extra mag. Would you agree?
That would be good as long as the night sights are tritium night sights. Some the versions IIRC were painted-on flourescents.
The VP9 is a great pistol. I like mine, but I did have a chance to shoot Larry Vickers' VP9 at a course two years ago. His had been re-worked by GrayGuns. I didn't think it was possible to make that trigger any better, but for $300 they will make it noticeably better.
https://grayguns.com/gunsmith-services/heckler-koch/vp9-action-cleanup-perfection/
SomeOtherGuy
04-13-17, 14:33
Glock 19 is still a good choice for 90% of users. I'm amazed that it's still the smallest, tightest package relative to capacity and barrel length even after 30 years.
CZ is great, but CZ has been a good choice for a long time, so I don't think that's changed in 8 years. The P-07 is a nice carry size gun with a great DA/SA trigger, and the P-09 offers a large "service" size equivalent for competition use.
The M&P is OK but kind of an also-ran at this point.
The H&K VP would get my vote IF it had conventional magazine release buttons instead of the levers. The movement is different and muscle memory for one will be wrong for the other. I'm not aware of any modern, common pistols besides HK that use levers like that.
SIG is still expensive, Taurus is still best to avoid, and many other companies are still OK but not compelling.
The H&K VP would get my vote IF it had conventional magazine release buttons instead of the levers. The movement is different and muscle memory for one will be wrong for the other. I'm not aware of any modern, common pistols besides HK that use levers like that
I have the paddle release on my VP9, both of my PPQs and on my PPS - all modern firearms. I have button release on my P229, and on my Glock 19 and my M&P9L (before I sold those two POS). The gun that I carry 99% of the time is a PPS M2 with button release. Button vs paddle is strictly personal preference. I am totally indifferent as to one vs the other and have just never found it confusing to have different mag releases on different pistols.
TheSmiter1
04-13-17, 17:20
That would be good as long as the night sights are tritium night sights. Some the versions IIRC were painted-on flourescents.
The VP9 is a great pistol. I like mine, but I did have a chance to shoot Larry Vickers' VP9 at a course two years ago. His had been re-worked by GrayGuns. I didn't think it was possible to make that trigger any better, but for $300 they will make it noticeably better.
https://grayguns.com/gunsmith-services/heckler-koch/vp9-action-cleanup-perfection/
They're factory HK tritium three-dot night sights.
I'm going to go dry fire one to see if my finger will rub on the groove. That was a problem for me with the G19 and it sucked with high round count days.
I'm still tempted by the M&P 2.0. I fired a shield recently for about 125 rounds and it's amazing. I remember how soft shooting the full-size was, too. I'll take a look at a few others while I'm at the store (P320, P10C, PPQ), but if the VP9 doesn't rub my finger, it'll likely be the one. I may get a shield, too, because that's just a sweet gun.
They're factory HK tritium three-dot night sights.
I'm going to go dry fire one to see if my finger will rub on the groove. That was a problem for me with the G19 and it sucked with high round count days.
I'm still tempted by the M&P 2.0. I fired a shield recently for about 125 rounds and it's amazing. I remember how soft shooting the full-size was, too. I'll take a look at a few others while I'm at the store (P320, P10C, PPQ), but if the VP9 doesn't rub my finger, it'll likely be the one. I may get a shield, too, because that's just a sweet gun.
If y ou're looking at the Shield as a nice concealable single-stack 9mm, take a close look at the Walther PPS M2 too.
If y ou're looking at the Shield as a nice concealable single-stack 9mm, take a close look at the Walther PPS M2 too.
Hmac, do you have a PPS?
Been looking at one for CCW
Official Kremlin Transmission
Hmac, do you have a PPS?
Been looking at one for CCW
I've had a PPS Classic for years. When the PPS M2 hit the market a coupled of years ago I picked that one up right away. It's an improvement on the PPS in several different areas. I like that it shoots like a full-size gun. I like it a lot, have absolutely no need to look at anything else.
AKs went up. ARs went down. 9mms proliferated like rabbits, and generally got better.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-13-17, 20:09
Not much. Since 2004 the trend has been back towards 9mm wondernines.
Glock has gotten a lot worse and SIG has gotten a lot better.
Beretta, HK, Walther, CZ, etc are still solid.
ARS are still about the same, and the gun companies are just changing hand guards every three years to sell us new crap.
Aim points are even more the obvious choice than they were then.
1911s are in decline again. They will be back.
Basically the only growth area has been where everybody has been improving the Kahr PM9.
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