View Full Version : Colt Combat Unit Carbine vs Sionics Patrol Rifle III
I'm considering purchasing a 16" mid-length carbine for some upcoming classes. Particularly, the two carbines mentioned in the title.
These carbines are very similar. Both are light-weight mid-lengths with the same rail and the same furniture. Obviously the Sionics comes with MBUS Pro sight set, slightly upgraded trigger, coated bolt, and proprietary barrel contour. Meanwhile,
Colt comes with name recognition (which may help with resale if I choose to in the future) as well as a pinned gas block.
The Pony is available for $1040ish while the Sionics would run $1500ish and require an FFL transfer fee.
Are there any technical differences I'm missing to justify the price difference, other than accessories? Which would you choose and why?
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Beat Trash
04-21-17, 18:53
I would go for the Colt CCU. I prefer a pinned gas block. I also prefer the $460 price savings.
SeriousStudent
04-21-17, 19:51
*cough*
https://www.westernsport.com/product/sionics-weapon-systems-ar-15-kit/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lr-standard-lower-receiver-standard-stripped/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lrb-lower-receiver-standard-stripped-blem/
Speaking of price savings...... that would be $250 less than the CCU.
nightchief
04-21-17, 20:00
*cough*
https://www.westernsport.com/product/sionics-weapon-systems-ar-15-kit/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lr-standard-lower-receiver-standard-stripped/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lrb-lower-receiver-standard-stripped-blem/
Speaking of price savings...... that would be $250 less than the CCU.
Complete rifle from Tombstone Tactical is $1310, so a little better price point, not including shipping and transfer.
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/patrol3-patrol-rifle-iii-lw-5-56mm-16in-w-13in-centurion-arms-free-float-rail/
Question for OP: If the price was the same, would you still be pondering the decision? Is price the driving factor here?
NC
I'd really like someone who can to shoot these rifles back to back and see which one is ported better. I've put a fair amount of roundness through Sionics barrels and would love knowing how the CCU compares.
I bought a CCU back in January. I too was looking at both options. I really wanted the Sionics but for some reason availability was difficult at the time. I stumbled across a CCU for $1179 and jumped on it. I have to say I'm really pleased with it. I only have about 1000 rounds through it but it's been reliable and I'm extremely happy with how accurate it is (Trijicon TA31 as the optic).
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If price were the same I'd flip a coin ;)
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*cough*
https://www.westernsport.com/product/sionics-weapon-systems-ar-15-kit/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lr-standard-lower-receiver-standard-stripped/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lrb-lower-receiver-standard-stripped-blem/
Speaking of price savings...... that would be $250 less than the CCU.
My only knock with that list is the DSA buffer tube kit I believe is not 7075, and probably has a car buffer. Granted, it is a $40-65 dollar fix. and I'd personally just stick it on a cheap lower for a beater since there are a few other things I'd be swapping for my personal preferences anyway if I was putting things together. Other than that, if I was in the market for an upper I'd be looking at that sale hard. Like really, really, hard.
For a better break down for the OP, since he stock to the Patrol III
https://www.westernsport.com/product/sionics-patrol-iii-urg-lightweight-barrel/
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/sionicsweaponsystems/lrb-lower-receiver-standard-stripped-blem/
https://www.westernsport.com/product/sionics-enhanced-lower-parts-kit-ambi/
https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-milspec-buffer-tube-kit-coupon-code-sale-6698
The Rainer stock kit also comes with an H buffer, you just need to buy a stock with it to get it at the price listed there.
Primary Arms also has a decent sale on the Magpul Pros, though it ain't smoking.
Rough cost would bring you up to about $1200-1300, or there abouts, which after you add sights, the Pros to the Colt would be pretty damn close unless I miss something. Going with the upper SS pointed out would save you money obviously. Of course, playing with options for LPKs, Grant has Colt ones instock last I checked, and stocks could bring you to more or less depending, as well as trigger preferences, stock preferences, ect. Also depends on if you are married to the Pros for BUIS or like others. And if you are wanting to wait on sales of other parts to try to get the most bang for your buck.
Not sure if all that helped or just muddied the waters.
If we are going to do a comparison, let's at least be honest.
Last I looked, the Colt CCU does not feature sights. The SIONICS Patrol III has MBUS Pro Sights. In addition you get the NP3 bolt carrier group. The trigger is better than a stock Colt not just IMO but in that of everyone who has tried it. You also get the Sprinco blue spring as standard.
The preference of pinned versus set screw gac block is just that. Every single BCM upper uses the same method and people don't seem to panic about them.
Hammer_Man
04-21-17, 22:58
Chris Bartocci is very knowledgeable when it comes to Colts, and he recently reviewed the CCU. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1ZXkfcDrAI If the price between the two was the same, I would go with the Sionics. Being that the Colt can be found for a lot less, I'd go with the Colt and use the savings to buy a decent optic (Aimpoint PRO), or lots of ammo and range time.
nightchief
04-21-17, 23:44
If price were the same I'd flip a coin ;)
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So if you add the least expensive iron sights to the Colt, Magpul MBUS gen 2, that's another $93 (based on pricing from Rainier Arms). Price is getting closer to the Sionics Patrol 3, and, as Iraqgunz pointed out, the Sionics comes with some enhanced components too. Is the $1040 you found include tax? Pinned gas block is nice feature of the Colt.
To answer your original question, which would I choose, I like the enhanced features of the Sionics, so I kinda lean toward their Patrol 3. I have a barrel, trigger and BCG from Sionics, and all are excellent quality. Whichever you choose, I'm sure will be solid choices. My $.02 as a non-mil, non-LE, John Q. Public shooter.
NC
Actually, SIONICS may be cheaper than Colt CCU.
Goto SIONICS' website and order the upper and lower separately; they have blem lower which is $40 cheaper. Then apply 5% off code: GUNSNGEAR to the entire order. If you do the math it's $730 upper + $320 lower, which is $1050, and after 5% off it comes out to $997.5 after 5% off. With the FFL fee and sales tax on lower (if applicable) it could still be cheaper than CCU.
I'm impressed by the accuracy of CCU in Chris Bartocci's video, and I hope Josh@SIONICS can send him a SIONICS rifle to review. If the price is the same, you really can't go wrong with either, Colt rollmark might worth more when you try to resell it but SIONICS does have NPC coated BCG, trigger group, sprinco blue spring, and 1:8 twist barrel.
Now to side track, one other name brand option you can consider is the FN Tactical Carbine II (https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-15-tactical-ii/) which can be found onine for around $1320. This looks like the mass produced version of Hodge's AU-MOD 1, but I'm not sure if I would spend the extra $300 dollars on it over the two aforementioned rifles.
Tough call. I was in the same boat not too long ago. I went with the CCU mostly out of simplicity and I support my local gun dealer who is a great guy. Got my CCU OTD for a little over a grand and he threw in a bunch of ammo. I also get the roll mark and Colt's first mass produce middy. Great carbine I set up to be my home defense gun.
Let us know what you end up getting.
If we are going to do a comparison, let's at least be honest.
Last I looked, the Colt CCU does not feature sights. The SIONICS Patrol III has MBUS Pro Sights. In addition you get the NP3 bolt carrier group. The trigger is better than a stock Colt not just IMO but in that of everyone who has tried it. You also get the Sprinco blue spring as standard.
I made that very clear in the OP that the Sionics features MBUS Pros, coated bolt, and upgraded trigger.
I was unaware of the Sprinco, Will. Thanks for pointing that out. Are there any technical differences you can share? I saw that the barrels are air-gauged. What are the gauge tolerances?
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Thanks for the input guys. Not looking to build an AR. I've done several over the years, but rather wanting a factory gun. This is more of a want than a need, I suppose. I'm going to do a personal experiment and shoot a single AR for everything for a year, other than my home defense gun.
If I go CCU, I'll trade some stuff I don't use for it locally, a friend is an FFL and typically treats me right. If I go Sionics, I'd have to buy it online and have it transferred in. Thanks for the code by the way; that makes it more competitive. My plan for the CCU was to drop one of my SSA-Es in it and whichever will end up with my Vortex Razor 1-6x.
If anything else can be added, feel free. I'll probably decide next month.
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For the 460$ difference you could get an SSA, and an Arisaka light and mount.
Do Sionics low pro barrels feature pinned gas blocks and chrome lined barrels if yes it seems to me Sionics should be the go to company now a days. Far too many companies are pushing the cheaper nitride options (saves companies $30-$50 over chrome) and most companies are not pinning gas blocks.
I was pointing this out to others, who may have glossed over it before they commented.
Off the top of my head, I am not sure and I would have to look at some of the prints and data. With that said, MrGunsngear did a pretty good review of his experience with it.
I made that very clear in the OP that the Sionics features MBUS Pros, coated bolt, and upgraded trigger.
I was unaware of the Sprinco, Will. Thanks for pointing that out. Are there any technical differences you can share? I saw that the barrels are air-gauged. What are the gauge tolerances?
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We don't pin our blocks, and have yet to see any adverse effects. All the current offerings are chrome lined.
Do Sionics low pro barrels feature pinned gas blocks and chrome lined barrels if yes it seems to me Sionics should be the go to company now a days. Far too many companies are pushing the cheaper nitride options (saves companies $30-$50 over chrome) and most companies are not pinning gas blocks.
I was pointing this out to others, who may have glossed over it before they commented.
Off the top of my head, I am not sure and I would have to look at some of the prints and data. With that said, MrGunsngear did a pretty good review of his experience with it.
Roger that. I'm really hoping for an accurate AR to use for a scoped carbine course. I've been dealing with a disappointing BCM barrel lately on a home build.
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Roger that. I'm really hoping for an accurate AR to use for a scoped carbine course. I've been dealing with a disappointing BCM barrel lately on a home build.
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I'm not sure what most people expect from chrome-lined barrels but I certainly don't think you'll be disappointed with Sionics in that department. There is at least one video in the Sionics thread where the reviewer talks about his accuracy testing of their barrels. The only reason I got rid of my uber accurate Sionics med-con upper was to set my buddy up with a accurate recce upper and replace it with a lw Sionics upper. Having purchased BCM, Colt, Centurion, and Sionics barrels, I feel like the other companies are mostly in a competition to be "as good as", instead of merely "also run".
I'm not sure what most people expect from chrome-lined barrels but I certainly don't think you'll be disappointed with Sionics in that department. There is at least one video in the Sionics thread where the reviewer talks about his accuracy testing of their barrels. The only reason I got rid of my uber accurate Sionics med-con upper was to set my buddy up with a accurate recce upper and replace it with a lw Sionics upper. Having purchased BCM, Colt, Centurion, and Sionics barrels, I feel like the other companies are mostly in a competition to be "as good as", instead of merely "also run".
A barrel should shoot sub-2.5
MOA for ten rounds with bulk commercial ammo and 1-1.25 MOA with match ammo.
If I can run my hand loads through it and get 2-3 MOA with the stuff I run on a progressive and 1 MOA with my single stage and match components, I'm happy.
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A barrel should shoot sub-2.5
MOA for ten rounds with bulk commercial ammo and 1-1.25 MOA with match ammo.
If I can run my hand loads through it and get 2-3 MOA with the stuff I run on a progressive and 1 MOA with my single stage and match components, I'm happy.
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I can't really speak for commercial bulk, but my 25.5gr TAC/55gr Hornady reloads seem to stay 2MOAish with the Aimpoint, provided I can chose targets that give a good sight picture to frame the dot in. Mr.GunsnGear's review using their lightweight barrel seemed to meet this requirement as well, and neither of us are using the SSA-E (great trigger, btw). I don't know if I could expect 1 MOA from a chrome lined barrel with me behind the trigger, but at this point, my 55gr loads give groups good enough I'm happy. Running my match loads through my rifle with a RDS and GI trigger might be a waste of quality components at my skill level, though. It seems like 1.2 MOA approaches the threshold of my skill level on an AR, even on my SPR with the SSA-E installed.
I'm interested in seeing how you end up regardless of which rifle you choose at this point. Did I miss which scope you're going to use?
I'll be using a Vortex Razor 1-6x I'll be pulling off another rifle I can't get to shoot.
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I'll be using a Vortex Razor 1-6x I'll be pulling off another rifle I can't get to shoot.
You ever consider sending that BCM barrel back to them?
It has a muzzle device pinned on. I don't blame BCM for the barrels accuracy rather just the combination I have isn't working. A friend sent them a barrel back for poor accuracy and got it back stating 3 MOA was acceptable.
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It has a muzzle device pinned on. I don't blame BCM for the barrels accuracy rather just the combination I have isn't working. A friend sent them a barrel back for poor accuracy and got it back stating 3 MOA was acceptable.
Thanks for the response, just curious. Appreciate it. ;)
Thanks for the response, just curious. Appreciate it. ;)
Roger that.
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SIONICS to continue on your barrels
I havnt seen issues with set screws into dimples myself and have only heard of a few issues ever and without seeing the effected guns who knows the state of the builds. All that said i think you guys should consider it for the OCD guys and up charge extra for it OCD guys will pay the extra for piece of mind. SIONICS isnt trying to compete with Radical or Anderson and is trying to offer a great alternative or even step up from BCM and I think this is a great feature for your market share.
It has a muzzle device pinned on. I don't blame BCM for the barrels accuracy rather just the combination I have isn't working. A friend sent them a barrel back for poor accuracy and got it back stating 3 MOA was acceptable.
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Really dumb question: how many rounds were through the BCM barrel? I only ask because of seeing a Noveske barrel that wouldn't shoot in the hands of a guy who I'd seen shoot very well until he used the Noveske set up. He eventually found a burr at the gas port, and scrubbed it with a bore brush until it was gone, resulting in a tack driver. I know this is very apples to oranges, and probably not the cause, but I was surprised to hear of the issue with the Noveske. I've wondered if enough rounds would have removed the burr.
almost $500 less? no brainer, the Colt Combat Unit Carbine.
SIONICS to continue on your barrels
I havnt seen issues with set screws into dimples myself and have only heard of a few issues ever and without seeing the effected guns who knows the state of the builds. All that said i think you guys should consider it for the OCD guys and up charge extra for it OCD guys will pay the extra for piece of mind. SIONICS isnt trying to compete with Radical or Anderson and is trying to offer a great alternative or even step up from BCM and I think this is a great feature for your market share.
Yeah. I like this idea. Options are always nice, even though I've never has an issue with my factory BCM with their gas block, options are nice.
Really dumb question: how many rounds were through the BCM barrel? I only ask because of seeing a Noveske barrel that wouldn't shoot in the hands of a guy who I'd seen shoot very well until he used the Noveske set up. He eventually found a burr at the gas port, and scrubbed it with a bore brush until it was gone, resulting in a tack driver. I know this is very apples to oranges, and probably not the cause, but I was surprised to hear of the issue with the Noveske. I've wondered if enough rounds would have removed the burr.
I cleaned it when new, shot about 400 rounds of bull ammo through it, cleaned it again, then JB'ed it, I've got about 500 handloads through it now. Same loads are sub-MOA in several other rifles. I disassembled it and cleaned it again night before last. I'm going to try it one last time. If it doesn't perform it can be the home defense gun.
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Vegasshooter
04-25-17, 14:47
almost $500 less? no brainer, the Colt Combat Unit Carbine.
Care to share with us what you're basing your opinion on? There are many things to consider more than the $500. Please enlighten us with where you're coming from.
To the OP. Since I have the Sionics, I feel I can give you an honest opinion: they absolutely shoot. Mine is the lightweight barrel, and it shoots better than it should given the profile. I have put 5 round groups out of it at 50 yards where there were 3 clustered holes, all touching, that the 5 rounds went through. I'm shooting 75gr Speer Gold Dots. I realize the barrel isn't going to go group for group with my match grade barrels as round counts get higher, and things heat up. For a defensive carbine that will be used in that role, the Sionics LW barrels are fantastic to carry and shoot. It's incredibly comfortable to train all day with a 6# carbine instead of a 9+ pound gun. The Sionics "drives" target to target extremely well. I'm running the Centurion 15" rail on my 16" gun. Love it for a defensive rifle.
This is no knock on the Colt, I believe it's likely a good gun too. I just have personal experience with the Sionics to share.
Care to share with us what you're basing your opinion on? There are many things to consider more than the $500. Please enlighten us with where you're coming from.
I have no experience with Sionics but I own a CCU carbine, I've only shot about 800rds through it but so far I am very pleased with it and I'm beginning to like it better than both my BCM LW and my Daniel Defense M4V3. I got my CCU carbine for $150+ more than the OP, so what he can buy it for it is a no brainer.
grizzlyblake
02-01-19, 12:29
Zombie thread...
I'm currently stalled trying to decide between the CCU ($1139) and the Sionics Patrol Three-E ($1079). I'm buying two - one for myself and one for my son to be do-all guns that could swap between RDS and LPVs as necessary. I would like to keep both rifles forever, sort of heirloom type deal.
Anybody have a compelling argument either way?
Zombie thread...
I'm currently stalled trying to decide between the CCU ($1139) and the Sionics Patrol Three-E ($1079). I'm buying two - one for myself and one for my son to be do-all guns that could swap between RDS and LPVs as necessary. I would like to keep both rifles forever, sort of heirloom type deal.
Anybody have a compelling argument either way?
I would add the Centurion complete rifle as an option. Also I think any of those three would be fine.
I would add the Centurion complete rifle as an option. Also I think any of those three would be fine.
Agreed.
I’d put the Colt last. That company needs some help, I’d rather put my money into smaller but very reputable businesses.
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I will add that Sionics customer service is outstanding. Any requests I have had were always met with a "can do" attitude. They answer the phone and timely respond to emails. My understanding is that Colt's CS can be hit or miss.
Cheers, Steve
I recently purchased from Sionics and can't recommend them enough. Great product and great people.
I will add that Sionics customer service is outstanding. Any requests I have had were always met with a "can do" attitude. They answer the phone and timely respond to emails. My understanding is that Colt's CS can be hit or miss.
Cheers, Steve
They've done well enough by me that I've actually called them before to fix a different company's product. The fact that they will answer the phone and explain things to my little brain makes me a very happy customer, as well as a repeat customer. For a lesser issues I email them and get a timely reply.
nightchief
02-02-19, 21:44
I've had a Patrol 3-E for almost a year...guessing it has 2K to 2.5K rds thru it. Mine is the version with the light weight barrel and Sionics proprietary mlok hand guard. It's been boringly reliable. No malfunctions yet. I haven't shot it for groups, so I can't answer how tight it groups cold and hot. I would agree with the other posters regarding their customer service. I actually had a minor ordering issue with mine and they solved the issue with minimal hassle. I would certainly buy another rifle from them.
No experience with the CCU. My 6920 OEM2 has been a boringly reliable rifle also.
Zombie thread...
I'm currently stalled trying to decide between the CCU ($1139) and the Sionics Patrol Three-E ($1079). I'm buying two - one for myself and one for my son to be do-all guns that could swap between RDS and LPVs as necessary. I would like to keep both rifles forever, sort of heirloom type deal.
Anybody have a compelling argument either way?
Its truly a buyer's market when you can choose between the Sionics and the Centurion for just over a grand. Realistically, the Colt is only bringing brand recognition and resale to the table vs the other two choices.
But... the Sionics Patrol III offers some compelling upgrades for rifles you plan on keeping forever. The Forward Control Design package on the Patrol Rifle III is a steal as well, IMO.
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