View Full Version : Dumb (my opinion) department duty firearm policy
platoonDaddy
04-24-17, 17:17
Took two USCP friends to the range this am, they wanted to practice for upcoming Q's. Their Department Policy prohibits using their duty firearm on public|private ranges. So they purchased a G22 for their public|private shooting.
In my opinion that is a dumb frigin policy.
Wonder if any other departments have a similar policy?
Digital_Damage
04-24-17, 17:25
it is in place for a few reasons.
Liability being primary.
Took two USCP friends to the range this am, they wanted to practice for upcoming Q's. Their Department Policy prohibits using their duty firearm on public|private ranges. So they purchased a G22 for their public|private shooting.
In my opinion that is a dumb frigin policy.
Wonder if any other departments have a similar policy?
I agree. Nothing like that where I'm at.
Not at all unheard of.
The mentality behind it is if you injure/kill someone else with dept weapon then the dept can be linked to it and then some chief might get his/her/xir fat ass dragged to civil court and have it all over the news.
Do I agree with it? No. Because similar policies state you can only carry your approved weapon as a CCW with badge and creds.
Lots of guys either get a personal CCW license and or get a waiver to carry their own gun just to cut down on the mother may I spiel.
Every time you see or hear of a stupid, retarded policy keep in mind that it is universally as a direct result of:
A. Some dumbass officer being a dumbass
B. Some Alcoholic City Attorney
C. Some fat ass Chief comfortable in their position.
D. Some nosy City Councilor who has never been anywhere nor done anything in life
The easiest workaround is what your friends are doing, buy their own gun and shoot on their own time.
I personally have had more than my fair share of dealings with agency heads and not a single one cared how awesome you were with your scores beyond if you passed or not.
Welp, that's better than mine.
Agency owned range only, agency ammo only, with an agency FI present.....
Admin douches gonna douche.
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Eurodriver
04-24-17, 19:18
Welp, that's better than mine.
Agency owned range only, agency ammo only, with an agency FI present.....
Admin douches gonna douche.
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But what if the terries strike outside of an agency owned range??
HOW WILL YOU USE YOUR FIREARM?
In all fairness, I can see their point. Someone has an accident or some other misadventure and they want to eliminate the variable.
Yet for 8, 10, 12 hours a day you are trusting them with the same gun that you wont let them practice with.
I dont know why everyone thinks police are body dropping, hardened gunslingers. (Actually some may well be) but on average....no. You will be filling out forms far more than you will be shooting anyone or anything.
But you know....stuff like this isnt my pet peeve. I would almost rather diversity hires and "very special" officers be browbeaten into not letting their hoodrat shackjob or their stripper girlfriend play with an issue weapon.
No....my biggest peeve is that the forms people like to cook up have not enough room for a legit narrative. So it goes to a supplement, which some fatass wonders why it isnt on tge nornal form.
I may not deal with this BS for another year.....it all gets written down.
"Well I dont want to read it all"
Well....get another job or just sign off snd lets all move on with our lives.
So if you go in your back yard how are they going to know? This is really stupid and I thought my upper command had lost their minds.
Dan
But what if the terries strike outside of an agency owned range??
HOW WILL YOU USE YOUR FIREARM?
It's all good bro. Another policy states any would be terrorist activity in the AO will be responded to in a vigilant and timely matter in addition to effectively bringing all appropriate assets on scene. It's filed under smoke and mirrors.....
We gotz IOPS, on top of SOPs inside of idontknowwhatthefvckthisissupposetodo OPs... Yay bureaucracy.
#cantevenoperate
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Welp, that's better than mine.
Agency owned range only, agency ammo only, with an agency FI present.....
Admin douches gonna douche.
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You work for the feds, correct?
You work for the feds, correct?
Correct sir.
Also, was not my intent to detract from the OPs post. Just showing that things could be worse.
But if anyone wants to suggest a quality entity where the carrying of personally owned SBRs with cans exist I'm all ears.
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sidewaysil80
04-24-17, 20:11
Same with us, agency range/ammo/instructors. That seems to be the standard policy with all Fed LEO's (0083's, not agents/investigators).
Took two USCP friends to the range this am, they wanted to practice for upcoming Q's. Their Department Policy prohibits using their duty firearm on public|private ranges. So they purchased a G22 for their public|private shooting.
In my opinion that is a dumb frigin policy.
Wonder if any other departments have a similar policy?
If you think about it, it is probably the best way to divorce themselves from liability brought on from training other than that delivered by the agency.
If you weren't using an agency approved weapon at the training then it wasn't agency approved training when 'Joe' the gun store commando told you something that is completely bullshit because it fits his idea of use of force like 'if you can't see their hands and they don't obey, you are justified in firing'
Ideally if an agency has those rules they also have a competent range staff and give officers opportunities to go to the range and use agency supplied ammunition. Unfortunately that often isn't the case.
And to think, I used to concern myself with the variable of range ammo and carry ammo.
Hung up my badge a little over four years ago, but could shoot at any reputable range for my entire 25 year career. We were encouraged to shoot as much as we wanted. We could do that any time, but had to have an agency FI present to use the agency range. It was just easier to go to a reputable public or private range.
If you think about it, it is probably the best way to divorce themselves from liability brought on from training other than that delivered by the agency.
If you weren't using an agency approved weapon at the training then it wasn't agency approved training when 'Joe' the gun store commando told you something that is completely bullshit because it fits his idea of use of force like 'if you can't see their hands and they don't obey, you are justified in firing'
Ideally if an agency has those rules they also have a competent range staff and give officers opportunities to go to the range and use agency supplied ammunition. Unfortunately that often isn't the case..
While that may be true, atleast from their perspective (which is still crap and not really legally sound), the reality is that it is but one illustration and more reflective of the singular mindset permeating the minds of senior LE (Faux) leadership in America. One that is wholly liability driven. Well, that an just being lazy sycophants who want to avoid actual work. Wanna know why a lot of the cops suck? Why policing is generally more reactive in most AOs, etc so on and so forth? There are external forces at work of course (i.e. courts, public ignorance, what have you), but internally it's because sh*t bag officials make it damn near impossible for the cops to do their jobs competently. They hamstring them with bullshit policies and operating procedures that should be in the DSM-IV under psychopathy. For those that are mentally deranged they just get off on playing policy overlord and trying to keep their thumbs on their guys.
That's what shi**y leaders do anyways.
Much of the stress in Law Enforcement comes from the structure and administration of the workplace, rather than from the job. Just like most other jobs.
Yeah, there is a lot of CMA going around LE, especially in the more bureaucratic agencies. You aren't saying anything other officers haven't said.
I remember when my SA job was fun. That was so long ago that I still had some hair.
You know.....that's the sad irony.
I've never once regretted any injury or anything incurred in policework. It was always some smug fatass behind a desk working their mouth or trying to be better than everyone else by pencilwhipping people, treating rookies like shit, and acting like they were anointed. Most either laid on their nscks or kissed ass. I knew a Female LT who never had a felony arrest. None. Not even an assist. 2 years in a nice area, self promote to juvenile, then Sergeant then 5 years on her back to LT and hiding ever since.
It's hard to know that people who habe not as much training, experience, or just been through the shit can abuse their position to mess with you for not ring kissing.
Some people actually like working bad areas. It is fulfilling. Like you really are doing something worth doing. But most people are looking for a way up or out.
If you're in LE and the only people you see are brass, clerical staff, and never leave your office.....why are you there? What are you doing?
Some wish to be teachers or mentors and that's nice but then you get that insular "trainer" mentality where you forget what you were really trying to impart.
Bad people get in LE. Some of the biggest crooks and assholes ever.
And some of God's Own are there too....like two different mentalities .
"Suck it up, buttercup".....yeah..
until it is you. Then it's a different story
All I know is.....if you are in any capacity to help someone. Do it.
Guts matter. Some of the happiest days of my life were spent on hour 13 of a 10 hour shift in the rain. Not sarcasm. I was wet, my feet felt like shit, I had ball sweat, anf I was fatigued from a rough day before plus sleeping during tge day when lawns get mowed and kids ran the streets screaming like retarfs and everyone felt like blasting stereos.
But I felt infinite. I have scars. Some of you have seen them. I regret nothing.
Except there are administrators whose names I wish I'd never heard.
Off in OTville but someone said something. No man, the job IS NOT stressful. It's a privilege. A good deal.
It's the coffee drinkers and chairwarmers that make it hard.
Some agencies are concerned about liability with a capital L. That is unfortunate.
My agency encouraged using the department issued service pistol in competition while off duty. It was clearly written in department policy and the purpose was to encourage maintaining proficiency. Unfortunately, issuing ammunition for off duty practice and competition was not budgeted.
We were not authorized to use the patrol carbine in off duty competition. I believe it was because of public perception of the "evil black rifle".
My agency encouraged using the department issued service pistol in competition while off duty. It was clearly written in department policy and the purpose was to encourage maintaining proficiency. Unfortunately, issuing ammunition for off duty practice and competition was not budgeted.
This is the mindset both agencies I worked for had. One, my first, budgeted 100 rounds a month per officer and was okay if I issued more to the guys who used it. My last boss had no problems with me going to the range everyday and shooting 'his' ammo. His mindset was competition and practice for competition just made us better trainers. None of us really took full advantage of that. I did more than most. Even when we had to start logging out every round shot, I never bumped up against 'you are using too much.'
Digital_Damage
04-25-17, 10:20
Some agencies are concerned about liability with a capital L. That is unfortunate.
My agency encouraged using the department issued service pistol in competition while off duty. It was clearly written in department policy and the purpose was to encourage maintaining proficiency. Unfortunately, issuing ammunition for off duty practice and competition was not budgeted.
We were not authorized to use the patrol carbine in off duty competition. I believe it was because of public perception of the "evil black rifle".
It has nothing to do with that... this shift is relatively new. I will just say mistakes were made and that is why most are adopting this policy.
I was lucky when I was a deputy, issued handgun was .357 mag along with 125 grain HP .357 mg ammo. But you didn't even have to ask to carry your own revolver as long as it was Colt, Ruger or Smith and wesson. Back up handgun was what ever you wanted, zero restriction. A bunch of us carried rifles, mainly AR's. Some of the deputies that were out in the sticks carried HK91 instead.
In Israel is where it got really restrictive. Ball ammo only. Stock pistols and could only be shot at a police range with an instructor on the range. No range use without an instructor. But since I was an instructor I could shoot when ever I wanted. Which didn't apply to my first 11 years as we shot so much, going back to the range was so far down my list as it never happened. The last 14 years I was commanding a lesser unit, that compared to most units shot a lot. But I was done with hours of shooting every day.
Took two USCP friends to the range this am, they wanted to practice for upcoming Q's. Their Department Policy prohibits using their duty firearm on public|private ranges. So they purchased a G22 for their public|private shooting.
In my opinion that is a dumb frigin policy.
Wonder if any other departments have a similar policy?
More common than you'd think.
I would be delighted to buy as many replacement guns or parts as troop could wear out. Take your friends and family shooting with them while you're at it.
Some agencies are concerned about liability with a capital L. That is unfortunate.
My agency encouraged using the department issued service pistol in competition while off duty. It was clearly written in department policy and the purpose was to encourage maintaining proficiency. Unfortunately, issuing ammunition for off duty practice and competition was not budgeted.
We were not authorized to use the patrol carbine in off duty competition. I believe it was because of public perception of the "evil black rifle".
Years ago our police chief issued and unofficial official directive. Officers were not allowed to shoot in an event that didn't have a LE/ Military class. I understood his position. Almost without exception the cops finished at the bottom of the score sheets. With a LE/Mil class they were separated from the guys who really know how to shoot. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you know how to shoot.
dwhitehorne
04-25-17, 18:19
Same with us, agency range/ammo/instructors. That seems to be the standard policy with all Fed LEO's (0083's, not agents/investigators).
This is definitely not the case with my agency the USPP.
I find it hard to understand the liability fear. If they issue the weapon and allow you to take it home the liability door is already wide open. David
I leave my duty gun, a G22, at work most of the time. I carry my issued back up gun, a 9mm Shield, off duty when and where legal.
This is definitely not the case with my agency the USPP.
I find it hard to understand the liability fear. If they issue the weapon and allow you to take it home the liability door is already wide open. David
I've chatted with a number of your officers on more than one occasion in the DC area. All stand up folks.
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This is the mindset both agencies I worked for had. One, my first, budgeted 100 rounds a month per officer and was okay if I issued more to the guys who used it. My last boss had no problems with me going to the range everyday and shooting 'his' ammo. His mindset was competition and practice for competition just made us better trainers. None of us really took full advantage of that. I did more than most. Even when we had to start logging out every round shot, I never bumped up against 'you are using too much.'
This is how my agency is. Well used to be with the ammo. Budget cuts really killed our ammo purchase. I used to shoot 100-200 rounds a week at the academy/our range. We dont need to have an instructor present either. Practice outside of work is highly encouraged.
Only weird policy we have is we have to carry a duty issued gun off duty unless going to or from the range/hunting. Nobody is really worried about it as it's only a written and Im not sure it's even really enforced.
Same with us, agency range/ammo/instructors. That seems to be the standard policy with all Fed LEO's (0083's, not agents/investigators).
Not us anymore, thankfully. The change occurred last year IIRC.
ffhounddog
04-26-17, 07:23
Took two USCP friends to the range this am, they wanted to practice for upcoming Q's. Their Department Policy prohibits using their duty firearm on public|private ranges. So they purchased a G22 for their public|private shooting.
In my opinion that is a dumb frigin policy.
Wonder if any other departments have a similar policy?
This must be a newish policy since I have been deployed. I know a lot of them keep their duty gun at work because of the issue of not having it at work when they change.
My wife is USCP carries a G23 off duty with my issued ammo 180 grain Rangers so there is that. I get mine free so free is free and it works. Her issued load is 165 grain Gold Dots. I did buy her a Glock 22 gen4 for training to use steel case ammo and reloads when we could not find ammo for awhile.
Years ago our police chief issued and unofficial official directive. Officers were not allowed to shoot in an event that didn't have a LE/ Military class. I understood his position. Almost without exception the cops finished at the bottom of the score sheets. With a LE/Mil class they were separated from the guys who really know how to shoot. Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you know how to shoot.
That is detrimental to development, or at a minimum maintaining proficiency, of an officer's skill level. If you want to develop good firearm skills through competition, you have to check your ego at the door.
platoonDaddy
04-26-17, 09:22
This must be a newish policy since I have been deployed. I know a lot of them keep their duty gun at work because of the issue of not having it at work when they change.
My wife is USCP carries a G23 off duty with my issued ammo 180 grain Rangers so there is that. I get mine free so free is free and it works. Her issued load is 165 grain Gold Dots. I did buy her a Glock 22 gen4 for training to use steel case ammo and reloads when we could not find ammo for awhile.
Their reply: Pretty new.....within the last 5 or 6 months
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